I do not eat meat but I do not consider myself either vegan or vegetarian, in fact most of them are liberal dogmatics, not much different from religious people. I still have to find an European vegetarian who would not support sodomy of all sorts (perhaps a biased opinion of mine, yet vegetarianism clearly became the cult). Perhaps Jesus was vegetarian but he would never call himself vegan as such word simply did not exist. I do not meat because the way we kill anymals is unethical and 'inhuman'. If we are to eat animals, at least let's do it with respect. That's why I like the way how halal meat is prepared.
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#562
Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: 'WE' in the Quran
July 17, 2017, 06:51:29 AMQuote from: Amra94 on July 17, 2017, 01:09:09 AM
Killuminati all thru your body
feel me
Quote from: imrankhawaja on July 17, 2017, 01:49:09 AM
if you see it from the lens of one who is debating on God singularity or plurality as per language rules then you may find it interesting..
Nice observation, but then again, there are verses, where Allah refers to Himself as I (20:82), and as in many cases as 'We' (6:123). I agree that plurality and singularity may differ in different languages, but we need to refer to the text. Plus this does not explain 'plurality' in the Old Testament, where often single and plural versions of Eloh/Elohim are used in the same verse (Genesis 35:7 or Psalm 82:1 - the divine council).
#563
Questions/Comments on the Quran / 'WE' in the Quran
July 16, 2017, 09:18:42 PM
Hello,
I am new here, and not really sure if this topic was covered before here on Free-Minds, but I never witnessed this issue was discussed among the Quran alone followers. In the Quran, in many verses, God speaks of himself as 'We' instead of 'I'. There are other verses, where 'I' is used too, but I did not count the exact amounts of both variants. Therefore, what is your theory on 'plurality' of God? I am well aware of every traditional explanation, but it's just something I am not personally buying, for several reasons:
1. Such manner of speech, when high ranked officials may speak of themselves (or their actions) as 'We' is something, which I strongly believe was not available ubiquitously up until modern times. I heard the Romans were the first to introduce such manner of speech when a person would say 'You' compared to 'you' when talking to a higher ranked official, out of respect, where 'You' would indicate higher position of that person, and that particular person would, in turn, speak of himself as 'We'. Such official (such as Ceaser) would then say 'We' as opposite to 'I' or 'Me' when discussing decisions, for instance. But I highly doubt that such forms of expression were popular in the pre-Islamic Arabic. Even among Romans this manner of speech could only be 'popular' among the elite, and not ordinary people. I speak Russian natively, and in Russian we say "Вы" (Vy') when addressing to an unfamiliar person, or a person of a higher social rank or official position, out of social respect. When we talk to a friend, we use 'Ты' (Ty') instead, which means 'you' and refers to friends, or ordinary people, while 'Вы' is used in two contextes, either if we speak to the group (You as the group."Why don't you guys etc.), or we speak to an unfamiliar person, or a person of higher age, or a higher social rank, so we say You (plural of 'you') as in "Вы" instead. Such form of experssion became popular among ordinary Russian people centuries after the events of the 7th century. Even serfs in the ancient Russia would address the Tzar as Ты (Ty') instead of 'You' as a plural or a polite form of you.
Therefore, I highly doubt that 'We' in the Quran is a manner of speech, which refers to the greatness of God. Surely, God is allmighty (16:78), but it probably has nothing to do with the manner of speech, since the Quran is the book for people of reason (2:164).
2. First Chapter (?Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help?) does not imply plural.
3. One of the perhaps greatest thing about God, is the fact that we cannot imagine Him or measure His Greatness (42:11). Therefore, if we use such narrative as 'We' and interpret it as a polite form, then we are comparing God to the king, or the top manager of some company.
4. There are similar 'pluralistic' forms of name of God introduced in other Scriptures. In the Torah, the term Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים ?ĕlōh?m) is used, which is the plural of ?gods? but which is often used in combination with a singular form 'god'. This was later changed in the Greek New Testament and other versions, so most translations use onyl the singular form. But you check the Hebrew version of Genesis 1:26 and countless of other verses, where 'Elohim' is used.
So what are you thoughts on 'plurality' of God in the Quran and other Scriptures? I understand it's a huge topic, but aren't we all here to seek truth?
Peace.
I am new here, and not really sure if this topic was covered before here on Free-Minds, but I never witnessed this issue was discussed among the Quran alone followers. In the Quran, in many verses, God speaks of himself as 'We' instead of 'I'. There are other verses, where 'I' is used too, but I did not count the exact amounts of both variants. Therefore, what is your theory on 'plurality' of God? I am well aware of every traditional explanation, but it's just something I am not personally buying, for several reasons:
1. Such manner of speech, when high ranked officials may speak of themselves (or their actions) as 'We' is something, which I strongly believe was not available ubiquitously up until modern times. I heard the Romans were the first to introduce such manner of speech when a person would say 'You' compared to 'you' when talking to a higher ranked official, out of respect, where 'You' would indicate higher position of that person, and that particular person would, in turn, speak of himself as 'We'. Such official (such as Ceaser) would then say 'We' as opposite to 'I' or 'Me' when discussing decisions, for instance. But I highly doubt that such forms of expression were popular in the pre-Islamic Arabic. Even among Romans this manner of speech could only be 'popular' among the elite, and not ordinary people. I speak Russian natively, and in Russian we say "Вы" (Vy') when addressing to an unfamiliar person, or a person of a higher social rank or official position, out of social respect. When we talk to a friend, we use 'Ты' (Ty') instead, which means 'you' and refers to friends, or ordinary people, while 'Вы' is used in two contextes, either if we speak to the group (You as the group."Why don't you guys etc.), or we speak to an unfamiliar person, or a person of higher age, or a higher social rank, so we say You (plural of 'you') as in "Вы" instead. Such form of experssion became popular among ordinary Russian people centuries after the events of the 7th century. Even serfs in the ancient Russia would address the Tzar as Ты (Ty') instead of 'You' as a plural or a polite form of you.
Therefore, I highly doubt that 'We' in the Quran is a manner of speech, which refers to the greatness of God. Surely, God is allmighty (16:78), but it probably has nothing to do with the manner of speech, since the Quran is the book for people of reason (2:164).
2. First Chapter (?Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help?) does not imply plural.
3. One of the perhaps greatest thing about God, is the fact that we cannot imagine Him or measure His Greatness (42:11). Therefore, if we use such narrative as 'We' and interpret it as a polite form, then we are comparing God to the king, or the top manager of some company.
4. There are similar 'pluralistic' forms of name of God introduced in other Scriptures. In the Torah, the term Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים ?ĕlōh?m) is used, which is the plural of ?gods? but which is often used in combination with a singular form 'god'. This was later changed in the Greek New Testament and other versions, so most translations use onyl the singular form. But you check the Hebrew version of Genesis 1:26 and countless of other verses, where 'Elohim' is used.
So what are you thoughts on 'plurality' of God in the Quran and other Scriptures? I understand it's a huge topic, but aren't we all here to seek truth?
Peace.