This subject is related to the post of Man Of Faith
originally in this thread in response to some of my questions.
This is an analysis(somehow) of my " classic sometimes sectarian influenced" view of Inner-self/hell/heaven/death and Man Of Faith's view
I also recommend reading it all before attempting to answer any part of it.
Here is the post:
Quote from: Cerberus on September 06, 2016, 11:22:09 PM
We might agree that Quran, like previous Scriptures, is describing the "Way" to "earning a reward".
That is one way of seeing it. Well, Quran does describe a way.
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Is the detachment from the body (in this world) the reward ?
If to keep it simple, yes. In Jehennom you have a body whereas in "Heaven" you have not.
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It seems that it could easily (the detachment from the body or bodily as you call it) be a consequence of following the Way ?
Red: "Attachment to bodily" is not really I who call it but that is what the term Jehennom means. It is a kind of descriptive term, could be regarded as a "code name", which means "External Attachment Integrity Thereof", i.e. the word in morphology reads it out loud descriptively what it means. The language functions the same when you use the letter 'heh' as personal pronoun, i.e. when you say who/which. The word Jehennom uses the root Jiin-Nun-(Nun) which you are probably familiar with, but which word does not mean invisible but one's covering. Al-Jinn is general for everything which covers, i.e. the bodily.
If one does follow the taught way of abstention from the bodily the result is detachment. You reap what you have sown. This is because you become absolute, much which is a remnant teaching in Hinduism as a fragment of truth in religion, you become al-rahman al-raheem (totally complete), and in Hinduism the condition is called Brahman ironically enough. The underlying purpose in your life is to nurture your spirit which is under delusion from the body preventing it from growing in being. Your person is like a seed needing to be cultivated inside a foreign body under the delusion that you have identity with it. That seed is your true person whereas the body is your false identity, it was made to you as a contradiction on Earth. Quran does frequently speak of Jinn and Naas and it does not refer to invisible beings versus humans but one and the same person who has a "body and spirit/soul". This is where you are required to make a clear separation between the bodily and the spiritual, much like our friend Jesus is seen teaching in the Biblical Gospels. If you can do that you can also see God for what God is, i.e. God's nature. "God" is not at all what most Abrahamic faith followers think, even Christians it seems.
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Is accomplishing that "detachment" what you may call "Heaven" "Jannah" ? And Falling into the "bodily" (temptations,wordly desire etc) what you may call Hell "Jahannam" ?
Well rounded up.
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What about death ? after death ?
Death is just part of the trickery. If you are not ready you will transfer your Nafs (seed or "Integrity Forth Spirit") into another body with a new bodily identity so you will live a fate which is recurring. You also transfer the progress of your Nafs and this remains the same and you are not unjustly losing any progress. If you have not progressed at all but turned in the negative direction into darkness this is also evident in who you will be thereafter. This is also a reason for the state of the Earth today 2016 with many mentally unstable people, fights, because they have degraded spirits malfunctioning. They are not more than beasts being victims of the body's instinct, and we know that "Satan is of the Al-Jinn". The weaker the spirit the heavier is the "incursion" of the bodily, and could be seen as animalistic behavior, and we know that the human's body is a primate.
This could most likely be connected to Jesus' saying "let the dead bury their dead" referring cryptically to that dead or alive in the flesh with no spirit still signifies lifelessness. His saying is very sarcastic but yet true, he meant to come about blunt in order to shock his audience into reflection. This was his methodology and the pedagogy works very well as you reach the subjects psychologically. Not all tolerated his method of teaching though so he was eventually persecuted, but mostly because his teachings were deemed blasphemous towards their perception of "God", i.e. when he clearly called himself in association with "God". Actually he taught what I am teaching in this forum generating mixed responses. People could be regarded as more advanced and educated than his audience 2000 years ago, but despite this many do not follow my further expanded intricacy making the subject more elaborate and advanced revealing the absolute nature. But most people did not understand Jesus 2000 years ago but made him the exclusive "son of God" and then worshiped exclusively while he himself said that "you can all be like me, children of the abbu", and this delusion lives on still in this millennium while you would expect that people were reevaluating what he said in a new light.
So strengthen the Being by separating from that which does not strengthen but weakens the Being. Soundness is a good way, logic is a linguistically adapted form of soundness, and the word Se-la-ma means that something is "spirit-like" as in whole/sound. Be aware of when Satan is causing you to various reactions in life and prevent those undesired reactions. The body should not affect any of your decisions but they should stem from pure logic. Emotions are driven by the instinct so you must learn that they are part of your negative identity. Heck you should not even become angry even if this reaction is hard to control when under provocation, particularly from lifeless people if you are spiritually ascended and struggle with new hurdles. Anger is a sin and such must be cleansed (sin in "God"'s faith's perspective is everything which is not constructive and has no practical use). It might sound extremist, but copulation intercourse has no practical use except exclusively pleasing the body besides the reproduction of new bodies in this world.
This same what I teach above Jesus taught 2000 years ago in saying: "Moses said that you should not kill, but I say that you should not even be angry with your brother". I taught you that anger is of the instinct and anger further leads to possible violence by not resisting provocation by other. Jesus' teachings as well as the Mosaic law may be using the Semitic word "qatal" so the teaching might not be so colorful but the original law said: "Do not go offensively/defeating", but since qatal was twisted into meaning kill later so then the law also became changed. So the escalation is probably from being angry towards wishing to defeat your subject. When you become angry you tend to wish to defeat others to a greater extent. But before you become angry the first warning signal is that you are emotionally affected by what has been said or acted and you have no resistance to the ignorance and misbehavior of people. Then after you are emotionally affected a sign is that the previously pale/uncolored face begins to become red if you let it escalate. You begin to enter a preparation to enter combat. In children who have more difficulties controlling themselves due to immaturity this can quickly be seen if a child is being bullied because they give in to Satan more quickly. Also when there is no one who they perceive as an authority (e.g. adults) they will show distinctly egotistical indications among other children. Much of this is settled through discipline, but the innate want is still inside the child, and this want continuous in adult age even if we normally employ decently non-violent ways as this is how we were reared.
But in religiously brainwashed people this might exclude infidels and that you can exploit weak people. In humans there is an instinct which is "to dominate" and when you begin to release reward hormones for the thrill of being in charge you might employ dubious methods exploiting others, and you might prefer to do the least among your "servants". You can see signs of Satan in a multitude of people all around you. I am sure you can recall by reflection countless times you have been affected by Satan yourself. If you cannot I am sure you are insincere or you are a miraculous exception. Because if you had been ready previously you would not be here in this world now and the ultimate finishing does seldom occur except in older age.
You might be hearing more.
Be well
Amenuel
Now that was the post that this post is going to be based on. So put your seat belt on.
Is the detachment from the body (in this world) the reward ?
If to keep it simple, yes. In Jehennom you have a body whereas in "Heaven" you have not.
Is accomplishing that "detachment" what you may call "Heaven" "Jannah" ? And Falling into the "bodily" (temptations,wordly desire etc) what you may call Hell "Jahannam" ?
Well rounded up.
Looking at these two statements.Based on the state of "inner-self" 'Nafs' do you reach Jannah/Jahanam as a place(first quote) or as a state of "being" (2nd quote) ?
Death is just part of the trickery. If you are not ready you will transfer your Nafs
First thing that draw my attention: Nafs or more commonly known as "inner-self". Quran speaks of the "Nafs" very often in such:
And Allah would not ever have wronged them, but they were wronging (themselves) their 'Nafs'.
Although classical views of nafs simply refer it to "yourself" as "whatever you think you are" probably why there are some misconceptions out there.
While making this post I found
this Sufi website that highlighted the three state of "Nafs" mentioned in the Quran:
- The commanding soul "Al-Ammara" (Nafs that commands to 'wrong/evil' )as in
And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the "soul" 'Nafs' is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful." 12:53
Imam Baghawi (ra) says regarding the Nafs al-Ammara:
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The Nafs al-Ammara has Shaytan as its ally. He promises it great rewards and gains, but casts falsehood into it. He invites it and entices the soul to do evil. He leads it on with hope after hope and presents falsehood to the soul in a form that it will accept and admire.
- Nafs al-Lawwama (The Self-Accusing Soul )as in:
[Shakir]Nay! I swear by the self-accusing "soul" 'Nafs'. 75:2
Ibn al-Qayyim says regarding Nafs al-Lawwama:
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It has been said that the Nafs al-Lawwama is the one, which cannot rest in any one state. It often changes, remembers and forgets, submits and evades, loves and hates, rejoices and become sad, accepts and rejects, obeys and rebels. Nafs al-Lawwama is also the Nafs of the believer?.It has also been mentioned that the Nafs blames itself on the Day of Qiyamah - for every one blames himself for his actions, either his bad deeds, if he was one who had many wrong actions, or for his shortcomings, if he was one who did good deeds. All of this is accurate.
- Nafs al-Mutma?inna (The Soul at Peace) as in:
O "soul" 'Nafs' "that art at rest"(confident,peaceful,..) Return to your Lord, well-pleased (with him), well-pleasing (Him), So enter among My servants, And enter into My garden. 89:27-30
Imam Baghawi (ra) says regarding the Nafs al-Mutma'inna:
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The Nafs al-Mutma`inna has an angel to help it, who assists and guides it. The angel casts good into the Nafs so that it desires what is good and is aware of the excellence of good actions. The angel also keeps the self away from wrong action and shows it the ugliness of bad deeds. All in all, whatever is for Allah and by him, always comes from the soul which is at peace.
Now this being said, I would like you to relate to the three state of "Nafs" mentioned above to what you said specially regarding the following concept: If you are not ready you will transfer your Nafs (seed or "Integrity Forth Spirit") into another body with a new bodily identity so you will live a fate which is recurring. You also transfer the progress of your Nafs and this remains the same and you are not unjustly losing any progress.
Now when I mentioned death and after death, I was referring to it as in the "classical" view i.e the end of it i.e you die, and you wake up in a scary place with everyone around waiting for your judgement. However it seems that you consider death merely a change of body, i.e not related to the "End" (Judgement day) which is interesting but also needs some backing up (Preferably from the Scripture).
But in the following I'll be using "death" as you expressed it i.e the change of body.It implies that, there has to be a limited number of "Nafs" (souls) created by God (initially ? or still in progress?) and at the death of someone, the soul is taken, to be put in another body in another place on earth in another time. Now this also implies that between the stage of dying and to be given another body, the souls are somewhere, since the rate of death isn't the same as the rate of birth therefore there has to be some souls wondering around probably "unconscious" of their surrounding. However this also need some backing up. (preferably from the Scripture)
Speaking of the scripture, these verses come to my mind:
[Khan]And say not of those who are killed "qatel" in the Way of Allah, "They are dead." Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not. 2:154
[Shakir]Thou makest the night to pass into the day and Thou makest the day to pass into the night, and Thou bringest forth the living from the dead and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living, and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest without measure. 3:27
and many other occurences of the same "bringing the living out of the dead.."
It's seems that the "death" you spoke about and the "death" that the Quran speaks of in many occurences never meant "the end". So if you can link your view to such verses, it would make much more sense.
This could most likely be connected to Jesus' saying "let the dead bury their dead" referring cryptically to that dead or alive in the flesh with no spirit still signifies lifelessness.
Referring to the spiritual dead as dead is reasonable and right. No problem here.
[Shakir]Surely you do not make the dead to hear, and you do not make the deaf to hear the call when they go back retreating. 27:80
However since I highlighted the difference between the "death" you spoke about and the classical view of death, I'd like to have your opinion on Judgement day as well.
I think these are the most parts I found intriguing in what you said.
And yes this is a long post, so anyone willing to participate should precise which part he/she is discussing for the sake of efficiency and clarity.
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