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Messages - theNabster

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I got the info from the book called "Hanafi principles of testing hadith" by Shaykh Atabek Shukurov. It deals with classical hanafi principles, not modern hanafi version which is significantly influenced by Shafi principles.

You can see some of his interviews here:

The purpose of the info was just to show what was apparently done in the past. It seems pretty obvious from Traditional Islamic and historical sources that the elevated status of hadith took a while to establish itself  and became dominant post-Shafi.

Jews have the Talmud which is also riddled with inconsistencies & magical thinking, even as an Arab Jew, i never bothered about Talmud Rabbinical edicts, & since 2000 Qur'an is more than enough for me, the rest is just decoration & static.

When I see how harsh the retribution was for Abbasids to follow Imam Shafi'3 subversive edict & put hadiths on a pedestal, I'd rather steer clear from them & let scholars, sadly some vacuous & lame, deal with them.

As a practical example, if someone comes to me & tries to use hadith to convince me on any matter legal or otherwise, my response will be consistently to ask that person to prove it by Qur'an, otherwise it is invalid & spurious.

For reference I collated the thread I made on @Twitter & @Facebook & it contains all the info from posters above & my current stand on hadith & traditions -

Revisiting Hadiths after rejecting them in 2000.

This Topic: Did Abu Hanifa follow the Quran alone? on forum prompted me to start looking into Abu Hanifa who was one of the early Imams Muslim clerics who started gathering information around early Islam & followers - establishing his own madhhab/school.

Abu Hanifa came before Bukhari, Muslim & Imam Shafi'3.

When I was exposed to hadiths in the early mid 1980's through Sunnis I affiliated myself with, I was concerned about contradictions with Qur'an which they did not seem bothered with & in 2000 I rejected Hadiths completely.

However in later years I realised this was not the correct approach because hadiths though often unreliable had still information of a historical nature & also illustrated how early Muslims responded within their own challenges using Qur'an as guidance.

In this light, & in view a lot of hadiths corruptions came mostly with hadiths sourced to Bukhari, Muslim, & later, I am now revisiting those pre Bukhari & Abu Hanifa will be a good starting point.

I look at Hadiths like I look at popular culture, some of which are empowering.

Therefore ruling them out completely was not wise, however they are not binding & certainly not to be used to amend or modify the Qur'an letter & spirit, they are welcome when they reinforce it rather.

Hadiths, each generation has its own sets of hadiths, of how our wise men, rulers, thinkers, ideologues set up to solve issues based on their belief systems, for Muslims Believers it is Qur'an.

At Abu Hanifa time hadiths were still not accepted as Islamic.
It was during Malik & Al Shafi'3's time they became a source for Islam.

Hanafis according to Daniel Brown accepted hadiths very late, resisted but in the end joined rest of Sunnis, cf book "Canonization of Bukhari".

What Imam Shafi'3 did, which was a crime against Allah, was to make Hadiths more binding than Qur'an, he made Hadiths abrogate Qur'an, he will be punished harshly for this, & in fact Abbasids who embraced his doctrine/edicts/fatwas got destroyed by Mongols as punishment in 1258.

Imam Abu Hanifa apparently had a much stricter criteria for ahadith/traditions, and made much more limited/cautious use of them in his rulings. Especially in comparison to later scholars and Imams of other madhabs/schools e.g. Malik, Shafi, Hanbal.

In fact he rejected so many hadith that he was apparently accused in his lifetime of being a "hadith rejecter". He apparently clarified by saying he does not reject hadith but rejects incorrectly attributed hadith.

As such there was somewhat of a rivalry between him and muhadithin (scholars of hadith). For example, Bukhari (who came much later) famously does not take hadith from Abu Hanifa, or only does so indirectly.

cf references here - Imam Abu Hanifa: The Juggernaut of Islamic Jurisprudence -

His criteria for testing hadith, in brief:
1) does it go against Quran
2) does it go against established sunnah (precedent of prophet and companions)...
This is after having checked each narrator in the chain/isnad passes their narrator criteria (righteous, maturity, intellect...

Nabil H

Peace jkhan,

there is a fine line between idolatry hero worship & monotheism, because there is a natural tendency for humans to feel empowered or dispirited by examples in real life whom they hear about or who affect them directly like their parents, their peers, their teachers, mentors, rulers & so on.

Hadith are here to stay, & people are affected by them directly or indirectly, so we need to find a way to show ourselves & others how to deal with this situation because it is endemic & pervasive.

There is not just hadiths but cultural traditions of different clusters of humanity.

What Qur'an does is steer people away from idolatry & setting up partners against Allah, it does not issue edicts to destroy all their traditions they rely on to survive & thrive, an example of good traditions is Science & Empirical Research, an example of bad traditions is the Hollywood & mass media indoctrinations by Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, Vatican, Jesuits, Freemasons, Wahhabi & Zionists, etc.

I have rejected hadiths since 2000, but I consider this now a mistake, even though I will not actively look for hadiths to enlighten myself & prefer Qur'an, I am still affected by Hadiths which have been used by the mainstream for now over 1,000 years & counting.

Traditions define the character of a Nation, Country, Ethnicity, etc.
It is accepted as axiomatic in Qur'an that people are different in customs, habits, but what it does is seek to purify those from evil & idolatry.

To change this, Quran Only people like you & me need a State, like the Turks did in the 13th-14th century with the Ottoman Empire.

What preceded them like Abbasids, Fatimids & other sects were clearly in the wrong & got eventually destroyed.

Abbasids were the ones who made Hadiths canonical, & Fatimids were idolaters who worshiped Fatima, & the Moors in Spain who might have been the most Quran only of the lot got massacred by Spaniards Catholics, this is our history, sadly.

The Turks had to deal with the emergence of the Shia movement which today is Iran & affiliates.

Maybe there will be a resurrection of Islam from Yemen as I believe there could be, usually Muslims who are the most oppressed get blessed with enforcers who emerge from their struggles & martyrdoms.

& Allah knows best.
Nabil H

Of course many  have tried to argue the case against and for secondary sources
However GOD s argument  in Qoran is the strongest and the simplest,

This puts an end to any need of  any secondary source , the argument about the need of hadith  or sunna or any other source collapses:

GOD bless you all.

Peace & Allah's Mercy & Forgiveness,

I consider hadiths/traditions as informative, sometimes empowering, sometimes malicious, but not binding -

I apply to them what Allah advises in Qur'an - "those who listen to what is said & follow the best thereof, those are the ones endowed with intelligence"

Salam & Thanks Bro Wakas, I included these details about Abu Hanifa on my @Twitter feeds.

Salam brothers & sisters,

Finished watching the series Dirilis: Ertugrul (Resurrection: Ertugrul) & finished watching Season 1 of the sequel Kurulus: Osman (Establishment: Osman)

I can only say, wonderful series putting Islam & Turks in a favourable light. It was a disaster for Muslims that Ottoman Empire fell,

but Allah will bring forth a new group that will, God willing, resurrect the flame of Qur'an & Allah's Word,

as Allah promised, if they return, We will return.

Science / Re: Viruses in theology of Qur'an
« on: June 19, 2021, 09:42:09 PM »
Peace & Harmony from Allah @tutti_frutti

We keep learning & we are challenged by Allah thus:

41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

Science / Re: Viruses in theology of Qur'an
« on: June 19, 2021, 02:55:32 PM »
Peace Abdul-Hadi
Viruses are just a fragment of proteins organised as a bundle of instructions for cells to execute, they are on the borderline of life, on their own they are not alive.
These agents can indeed be marshalled to help against disease, but their main function is inherently destructive, this is why I consider them agents of Wrath for Allah.

We get tested with good & bad, it is all a test. That's what we need to understand. This is a mortal world.

We live in a mortal world where entropy (disorder) will ultimately unravel to destroy everything we know & rely on including causality itself.

Some like scientists devote their lives to analyse & understand the patterns, what matters to me as an ex Scientist is no longer to just understand.
I ended up, rightly, realising that what matters is Allah & we have been blessed as humans to not need to call upon anyone but Him for forgiveness, succour, help, comfort & the greatest gift of all gifts: salvation.

Science / Re: Viruses in theology of Qur'an
« on: June 16, 2021, 07:32:32 AM »
Peace & Harmony from Allah @tutti_frutti
Look up Ibrahim's prayer where he bears responsibility for being sick & ask Allah for relief/shifa'a.
If we are responsible for our illnesses, surely Satan can be responsible too, if you think about biological weapons human devils can make, so can Satan, etc.
Fate / destiny has good & evil all coming from Allah, in either He allows evil or stops it from occurring.
Remember also where Allah says what is good is from Allah & what is evil is from you with that your hands have wrought.
I have no doubt also that Jinn have the technology, as we do, to inflict good & evil.
They contain our realm, they are in a realm which contains ours.
& also as you say Allah knows best.

Science / Re: Viruses in theology of Qur'an
« on: June 14, 2021, 07:55:08 AM »
Our knowledge is limited by our senses & their extension,
the instruments we devised, those foolish enough, & they are the majority, mistake the maps & what their instruments record for the territory & its reality.
Allah says that we know one aspect of reality, but most of it is hidden from us, he also says that the hereafter is the true reality.
Models are useful, but not an end, making them all that there is to be is in fact idolatry by stealth.
So yes to some extent I agree with you Abdun Nur, but this does not fully invalidate the virus & germs theory, it only says it is incomplete.
It can be improved with orthomolecular medicine, homeopathy, & faith.
After all The Healer, Al Shafee is the One who makes healing possible. Allah Al Shafee.

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