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Messages - Ali Omar

#311
Dear all,

MH has done a great job, but I can not find that the conclusion is beyond doubt.
(If I understood your conclusion correctly)

That a Messenger is sent, and when the message is delivered the Messenger becomes a Prophet, does not fit with 22:52 which talks about ?any Messenger nor (wa laa) Prophet?, indicating that these are two different things from the start.

However, if I try a theory to the effect that:
- A Prophet is automatically a Messenger, but a Messenger is not necessarily a Prophet -, it seems to fit, throughout the verses of the Qur?an, or am I biased?

??.Send amongst them a Messenger of their own???..?(2:129)
??.We have sent among you a Messenger of your own?.?(2:151)
??.a Messenger from among themselves????????(3:164)
??.We have sent among every Ummah a Messenger??.?(16:36)
?And for every Ummah, there is a Messenger?????.?(10:47)

Can we conclude that Messengers are ?from the people? and ?for the people? of any, and all, nations, communities, or Ummah?
Prophets are not mentioned in this way, only from, or for, specific communities, or groups.

As mentioned earlier, I used to be of the opinion that 33:40 said ?good bye? to both Prophets and Messengers, but have a feeling that I was wrong, and that Prophets are gone, but not the Messengers.

I would greatly appreciate if anyone could put me straight on this, and that we could all come to a common conclusion, based on undeniable facts from the Qur?an.

Best regards

Ali Omar
#312
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 09, 2003, 06:00:38 AM
Dear all,

Can we conclude that there is not going to be any more prophets, but messengers will continue to come?

I still do not feel convinced, one way or another.

I have heard, and seen, so many individuals calling themselves messengers, but ending up without being able to present undeniable proofs of correctness of what they delivered.

We can not call ourselves Messengers of Allah as long as we have any shred of doubts about our interpretation of anything within the message we are giving, and I think we all need to learn more.

I need to know what the difference is between a Prophet and a Messenger.
I wonder why it is so important to tell us that there are no more prophets coming, if the prophets have the same duties as the messengers, and the messengers are still coming, therefore making this a matter of no difference to us.

However, I do understand from the verse 22:52, that there is, probably, some difference between a Prophet and a Messenger, as the meaning I read out of the Arabic text of the verse is that:
?Whenever Allah sent a Messenger, or a Prophet, and they recited the Revelation, Satan threw in some disturbance???
I know the exact, word by word translation is different, but the importance here is the fact concerning Messenger and Prophet.

Also verse 33:40 implies a difference.

Could it be that a Prophet has a ?Global? responsibility, whereas a Messenger is responsible for a more limited sphere in which to spread the Message?

Allah is referring to Messengers being from amongst ?your own?, or something similar, a number of times in the Qur?an.

Comments?

Best regards

Ali Omar
#313
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 08, 2003, 11:06:53 PM
Dear all,

So, the big question is, can we expect more messengers and/or warners, or is it over and done with?

Best regards

Ali Omar
#314
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 08, 2003, 08:53:18 PM
Dear Damon,

?OProphet! (Nabi) When believing women come to you to give you the Bai?ah????.., and that they will not disobey you in Ma ?ruf??.?(60:12)

Here it is mentioned that people come to the Prophet to give a pledge, among other things, not to disobey the Prophet in anything that Islam commands.

My interpretation of the words ?Bai?ah? and ?Ma ?ruf? may not be absolutely correct as their meaning is wider.

You are right, or at least I can not find any statement in the Qur?an saying ?obey the Prophet?, but does not the expression ?not disobey? express the same?

Best regards

Ali Omar
#315
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 08, 2003, 08:33:00 PM
Dear Leyth,

Some verses concerning Messengers:

?O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and his Messenger, and the Book which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before; and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away? (4:136)

?And We sent not the Messengers except as givers of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby??.?(18:56)

?Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance that mankind may keep justice??..?(57:25)

?He it is who sent among the ?unlettered? ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to the His verses, purifying them, and teaching the Book???..?(62:2)

?And for every Ummah there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged? (10:47)


Concerning prophets:

"The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the Scripture with the facts so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path." (2:213)



Allah sent Prophets/Messengers as bearers of good news and warners.
Allah sent the Qur?an (or ?the Book, the ?Scripture?) with the Prophets/Messengers.
Allah sent Prophets/Messengers to judge.


You see my problem?
I still feel that ?Nabi? and ?Rasul? are used interchangeably, and that they had (or have) the same duties.

When Allah says that Prophets are not sent to us any more, what?s the big deal? We still have the Messengers coming, doing the same as the Prophets.

I have to go on searching for an answer to this, as I was waken up, out of my relaxed understanding that there were no more Prophets AND no more Messengers coming to us.
Now I really don?t know.
Maybe I have totally misunderstood the verse about the ?seal? of Prophets?

Best regards to you all

Ali Omar
#316
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 08, 2003, 06:51:42 AM
Dear Damon,

You are, of course right, my computer ?refuses? to write Arabic and my writing of Arabic transliteration may not be ?correct?, but as long as we know what word we are referring to, that part should be cleared? If so, let?s not waste time on that.

Like you say the word has been used many places in the Qur?an, and in relation to something that is ?closed up?, or ?not possible to reach?.
I have also, so far, believed that Muhammad was the last of the prophets and thereby easily rejected later ?prophets?.
Now I am not so sure any more.
I hope I am wrong, but I would really like to be convinced.
I believe that Aaron is right in wondering what the word ?seal?, or whatever translation we put into Khaamat, really mean in this context.

Allah has mentioned in some verses, like 7:157, 158 and others ?The Messenger of Allah, the unlettered Prophet?.
The definite article has been used in 7:157 and in many other verses concerning ?Rasul?.

I hope you, or someone, can give me more certainty in this matter, because it is vital for the perception of claims by individuals, after Muhammad, to be prophets and/or messengers.

We are told to follow the Messenger, and the Messenger received the revelation and gave it to us, so we have a possibility to follow, and obey, the Messenger through the message, or the Words of Allah.

If Allah says that Muhammad is the last of the Prophets. So what?
All the Prophets have passed away. And if they are of no importance to us anyway, as they are not guiding us, or giving us any messages etc., I fail to see why Allah is mentioning them at all?

However, I still have difficulty seeing the differences between ?Rasul? and ?Nabi?.
If there is a difference, should we follow the ?Rasul? or the ?Nabi?-part?
The ?Rasul?-part should be fairly clear, as that is to follow the message, but what about the ?Nabi?-part? Is that what the sects of ?Islam? are trying to find, and to follow?
May God forbid, but are we all wrong, trying to follow the Qur?an alone?

I am convinced that the answer is in the Qur?an, but if there is a difference I have not understood it yet.

The only verses I can find, in the Qur?an, that point towards a difference between ?Rasul? and ?Nabi? is 22:52 and, probably 33:40. All the rest seem to use ?Rasul? and ?Nabi? interchangeably, like 19:51,54 33:53 and so on.

I hope that you, or anybody else, can help clearing up this problem. We should have a common basis to stand on that is firm in truth, and therefore undeniable.

Best regards

Ali Omar
#317
General Issues / Questions / Obey
December 07, 2003, 09:32:25 PM
Dear Damon,

You are taking up a vital question.

I wish I could agree with you, it would make things simpler.

However, I find the expressions ?Nabi? and ?Rasul? used interchangeably in the Qur?an, and can not find any clear distinction between the two.
As you can see, below is a reference to just a few of the verses using derivatives of ?Nabi? and ?Rasul?.

In 2:213 it is said that ?Allah sent Prophets (Nabi) with glad tidings and warnings, and with them scripture in truth??

In 57:25 it is said that ?We have sent Our Messengers (Rasul) with clear proofs, and revealed with them the scripture?.?

In 3:144 it is said that ?Muhammad is no more than a Messenger (Rasul) ???

I wish to believe that Muhammad also was a prophet, even though Allah says he was only a messenger like many before him.

There are a number of verses where it seems that prophets and messengers had the same duties.

I simply can not find a clear distinction between ?Prophet? and ?Messenger?.

Of course, to behave like an actor and try to play Muhammad is shear stupidity, due to the fact that Muhammad was a mortal human being like you and me according to 41:6, and therefore with similar desires and emotions as you and me.

Also, he was prune to make mistakes and was warned against that in 80:1-10, 69:43-47 and 17:74-75. Why should Allah warn Muhammad if he was perfect?

His duties are clearly outlined in 10:15, 29:18, 36:16-17 and 24:54 amongst other verses.
There can not be any doubt about that, if we believe in the Words of Allah.

And he was just another of the many messengers/prophets sent to us according to 2:285, 46:9 and 3:144.

But the ?seal of the Prophets? according to 33:40.

Most interpreters have understood the word ?Haatama? as meaning ?seal?, and this word into meaning ?last?.
I am not convinced as to the correctness of this interpretation as there are many words in Arabic meaning ?final? or ?last? but ?Haatama? is ?a long shot?.

Anyone?

Best regards

Ali Omar
#318
General Issues / Questions / WAKE UP
December 06, 2003, 09:03:14 PM
Dear NoDoctor.Jr,

You have my sympathy.
All the best in your reasearch.

Best regards

Ali Omar
#319
General Issues / Questions / WAKE UP
December 06, 2003, 04:15:21 AM
Dear all,

I have been inactive on the forum for quite a while, mainly due to a feeling of taking part in discussions going nowhere.

My hopes were that we could have some constructive discussions, on the basis of Islam. We have, hopefully, some things in common, like an idea of what Islam is, and is not. Should we try to build on that instead of giving in to vain talk, and endless discussions of minute details?

What I need, and again, hopefully, many with me, is to find a broader basis to build up a system in accordance with God?s guidance.

I do not feel a belonging to any of the ?established camps?, or sects, sprung out of any guidance from God.
Maybe that is the way it is meant to be, but I am not satisfied with it.

After years of study of some religious scriptures including the Qur?an, Ahadith and various ritualistic religions, both Islam and others, I have found a common thread in all religions; they are all products of the human mind for control of the masses, one way or another.

The bases for the multitude of religions also seem to have many things in common, and are a ?far cry? from the results we see all around us. Islam is no exception.

I must admit that as the Qur?an is of main interest to me, I have spent more time on that than on any other scriptures.

To me, it is beyond doubt that the Qur?an is the Word of God.
It is also, to me, beyond doubt that all the interpretations of the Qur?an contain grave mistakes.
The words may have been translated correctly, but the underlying meaning has been, in some cases, gravely misinterpreted.

I have found the Qur?an to be such a dynamic book, that there is no one interpretation doing it justice.
It is a source of lifelong, continuous, interpretation. You can find one interpretation of a certain passage to be correct today but as times go by, and situations changes, so does some of the interpreted meanings.

There are, however some verses that obviously have a global, and eternal interpretation. These are what the Qur?an also refers to as the ?basic verses? of the Book.

I have also found that there is no larger community, let alone country, that are following the system of God, our creator. Whether it being Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any other.
I have found the Qur?an to cover all the aspects of life and am, therefore referring to that.

Also many participants, writers of articles and other scripts on the Internet has been widely used and I am eternal grateful for the inputs.
You will, probably not find much new things in what I write, but maybe a ?good? thing can not be said too often?

Anyhow first things first, are we ready to skip personal ?squabble? and look at the seriousness of the state of Islam?

How long are ?Muslims? going to continue ?sleeping??

When are we going to find back to the right path, trusting in Allah?

How long are we going to continue wasting our time and energy on nonsensical rituals?

When are we going to take charge and responsibility for our own lives?

How long are we going to be told, by self proclaimed ?Islamic? priests, what is right and what is wrong?

When are we going to rid ourselves of nonsensical spiritualistic mysticism and see reality?

How long shall we go on declaring ourselves to be Muslims if we do not believe in Allah or the Words of Allah?

When are we going to understand that Islam is a ?comprehensive system of life? and not a mere religion?

How long are we going to continue squabbling amongst our selves, without getting anywhere?

Until we wake up and stop treating Islam as a convenient shield, or a play, but take it seriously and listen to Allah, we will have no ?one Ummah?, and we will continue to be losers.


Best regards to you all,

Ali Omar