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Quranic Divinity / Re: Who ordered Qoran in the chapters we have now?
« on: March 18, 2020, 08:05:49 PM »
Peace : tlihawa.
Bare in mind ,the numerical system of Qoran is also not just about codes but about a perfect harmony of number relationship that the words and letters give in their arrangement in the text, have a look at this example:

Only GOD can manage this perfect harmony of numbers arranged in a literature text!
GOD bless you.

Salam Good Logic,
thanks for the video. It reminded me of the following verse,

78:29   And everything We have counted in a book.

Leave aside the chapter headings for which you have no  Quranic proof to buttress them..

Salaam Jkhan,
I just want to share my experiences and what I saw from the chapter heading. Chapter Heading is part of the Qur'an that I have received at the moment. What I did during fasting <extensive study part> in Ramadhan, I studied Al Quran by looking at the chapter heading, and start from there. There's a lot of things I got from there so I don't want to leave them aside. It is not about quranic proof to buttress them, but just the benefit and I would like to share it.


Quranic Divinity / Re: Who ordered Qoran in the chapters we have now?
« on: March 18, 2020, 08:42:05 AM »
Salaam Good Logic,
I have the same questions as you, and I found that it always a team work and not by individual. Maybe you want to consider these following verses,

=The Writers

80:11   No, this is but a reminder.

80:12   For whoever wills to remember.

80:13   In scripts which are honorable.

80:14   Raised and pure.

80:15   By the hands of scribes.

80:16   Honorable and righteous.

Most likely they were the same group/persons who has been assigned to make Quran in parts,

=The Divider

15:90   As We sent down on those who divided.

15:91   The ones who have made the Qur'an in parts.

So I believe that the current arrangement of the Al Quran is based on God's order to these group of people.

And how does the Qur'an come to our hands through people chosen by God.

35:32   Then We inherited the Book to those whom We selected from Our servants. Subsequently, some of them wronged themselves, and others upheld it partly, while others were eager to work righteousness in accordance with the will of God; such is the great benefit.

However, there is no guarantee that by being chosen by God, they are among the righteous. And As far as I know, the printed and distributed Quran mostly comes from the Sunni or Shia line.

By the way, I really respect the person who wrote the titles of the surah. It's like there is a hidden message behind the selection of the title of the surah. The title of the surah does not always dominate the contents of the surah, sometimes even only one or two verses, but almost always has a deep meaning.


God is our teacher in life, that is a communication beyond words.

God has given us Reason so that we can tell right from wrong in ourselves and around us, and where does this reason come from ? do we generate it ? or does it have a source ? It could come from God...That aswell could be a constant communication that is often neglected and ignored.

I don't know about God communicating with words.

Salaam Cerberus,
I dont think that we can rely on self-assessment on right from wrong. Since there's no guarantee it's coming from God.

May you would like to consider these verses,

2:216   Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know.

4:19   O you who believe, it is not permissible for you to inherit from the women by force. And do not make difficulty for them so that you may take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you dislike something while God makes in it much good.

There are good and 'extreme' examples from Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Musa, when Ibrahim was ordered to sacrifice his son. No one in this world who thinks that killing a child is something good, but the prophet Ibrahim chose to follow God's commands and ignored his personal judgment. Therefore he passed the test.

Another example from Prophet Musa when he met someone who had taught knowledge by God,

18:65   So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him knowledge from Us.

18:66   Moses said to him: "Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?"

18:67   He said: "You will not be able to have patience with me."

18:68   "And how can you be patient about that which you have not been given any news?"

18:69   He said: "You will find me, God willing, to be patient.
And I will not disobey any command of yours."

As we have seen, the Prophet Moses failed to be patient with the instructions given

18:74   So they ventured forth until they came upon a boy, and he killed him. He said: "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"

18:75   He said: "Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?"

Reaction of the Musa was so natural, no one would justify killing an innocent person, But he failed to follow the instructions of someone who had been given knowledge by God.

This story is not to compare who is the best between Abraham and Moses. But to teach us that we cannot rely on our personal judgment . Now God didn't asked us to sacrifice our son,  but we must always stick to the instructions given by God through His books.

For example, my compassion for the poor is only limited to "money that I do not love" or small amount of money. But with God command, I have to give them at least 20% of my net monthly income after tax.

Sometimes personal judgment often seeks its own justification, therefore it cannot be relied on.


Salam Jkhan,
Yes, It's fine for me to translate Ulil Amri as "those in authority". Nothing wrong with that.

Regarding the God and Messenger, let's see once again the verse,

4:59   O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those has been assigned to matter (ulil amri) among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.

The first section is including the Ulil Amri, but not the second one.

But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day

This limits Ulil Amri's authority to the extent that it does not contradict the statement of God which brought by His messenger.

For example, I don't need to follow the Ulil Amri in Science and Technology area when they have statement that contradict with God's word.

I don't believe in their Big Bang Theory since it against what's already explained in Taurat and supported by Quran.

But this is only my personal opinion, others might be different.


Salam tlihawa,
thank you for the answer.

Regarding this verse:

57:23   In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be happy of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not love those who are boastful, proud.

Why can't we be happy with anything we have? Isn't it natural to want to be happy? For example, if I got a new job and the job is really good, pays well, good coworkers etc., isn't it natural to feel happy about this? Why does the verse indiciate that we should not feel sad or happy i.e. indifferent? If I'm happy with a new job, that doesn't mean I'm arrogant...

Salam Sarah,
Yes sure, it's natural to want to be happy . But I think what is meant in that verse is something deeper. This verse taught us not to love something too much.
you need to look at the previous verse,

57:22   No misfortune can happen on the earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do.

So for example, when we lose that job, we are not too sad, and stay positive since we knew that all the misfortune that happened on us was decreed in a record.

Maybe I'm not good enough too explain this, but here is something in my mind to represent my thought,

29:64   And this worldly life is no more than distraction and play, while the abode of the Hereafter is the reality, if only they knew.

Our worldly life right now is just a game, let say a board game named monopoly,

When we are playing monopoly, we feel enthusiastic and emotion during the games. There is excitement when having lots of money, being able to buy lots of property and win the games, and not excited when we going bankrupt. But still we realize that this is just a game in short period of time. Once the game is over, we will back to reality.

So all the excitement and sadness during the games is not real, not really affected the way we think and act.

So back to this verse,

57:23   In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be happy of anything He has bestowed upon you...

Since the worldly life is just a game, the level of happiness and despair in this worldly life should be only compared to the level of happiness and despair while I'm playing the monopoly games.

Maybe this is not a good analogy, but hopefully can represent my thought.


Peace all,

I have an interesting scenario, but I believe a lesson could be taken from this. Although it may sound crazy, please have patience with me, God willing. It is stated in 4:59 that we should obey those who are in authority among us.

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

But what if your country's leader required all of it's citizens to eat pork...

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Now would this be committing sin? One way to look at this is that he/she is obeying the command in 4:59, by obeying their authority. But due to the law being enforced to eat pork, he/she is not desiring to transgress, but is being forced to. In this scenario, would this qualify him/her staying align with God's commands, and be exempt from sin if they were to obey that law and eat pork?

Salaam TheUnseenLight,
let say that ulil amri in 4:59 above is country's leader, maybe you want to consider the following verses,

31:14   And We enjoined the human being regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two calendar years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.

31:15   If they strive to make you set up any partners besides Me, then do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have sought Me. Ultimately, you all return to Me, then I will inform you of everything you have done.

Even our parents don't need to be obeyed if they teach something that is contrary to God's rules.

But I would like to expand the context of the ulil amri by puting together all related verses so we can see the big picture.

Who is the ulil amri in 4:59?

Let's see the following verse,

4:83   And if any matter regarding security, or fear, comes to them they make it publicly known, but if they had referred it to the messenger and to those entrusted (ulil amri) from them then it would have been known by those who investigated it from them. And had it not been for the grace of God upon you and His mercy, you would have followed the devil, except for a few.

so based on the verse above, we know the following things,

The context is about defense and security among the believer at that time. There were rumors circulating among the believers that causing fears.
Believers already had a group of people that had been assigned (ulil amri) to investigate that case (we can compare to intelligence agency in our time). But they preferred to spread hoaxes and fighting each other.

Then God told them to follow the authorities/ulil amri (in this case, the intelligence) to find the truth regarding the case,

4:59   O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those has been assigned to matter (ulil amri) among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.

This is a story that has happened before, but we can learn from it.

Among the Corona Virus outbreak for example, just follow the instructions from the authority who has been assigned to study and to investigate. Do not spread hoaxes and and news that cannot be accounted for.

So for me, the Ulil Amri is not necessarily the country's leader, but this is about professional people who are assigned to certain case based on their expertise.


Salaam Jafar,
yes it based on my own limited view and understanding based on what's was written in

96:4   The One who taught by the pen.
96:5   He taught the human being what he did not know.

I don't know about the animal, but for the blind people,

16:78   And God brought you out of the wombs of your mothers while you knew nothing. And He has made for you the hearing and the eyesight and the minds, perhaps you would be thankful.

17:106   And a Qur'an that We have divided, so that you may read it to the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.

17:107   Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating."

I don't have any answers for every questions, but all I can say God is fully aware,

17:84   Say: "Let each work according to his own. Your Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."


There's this video from Sam Gerrans and he talks about celebrities- how some of them shoot to fame out of nowhere whilst they were just ordinary people before that. No special talents or qualities. He says that some of them channel demons and the demons help them get loads of success- make them rich and famous. And also, the celebrities seem to gain qualities they didn't have before out of thin air. Do you think this is true?

Salaam Sarah,
let's check what Quran says about it,

13:26   God gives the provisions for whom He wishes, and He is Capable. And they were happy with the worldly life, but the worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing except a brief enjoyment.

11:6   there is not a creature on the earth but on God is its provision. And He knows where it dwells and where it hides. All is in a clear record.

35:3   O people, remember the blessings of God upon you. Is there any creator other than God who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? There is no god besides Him, so why do you deviate?

I don't think that demons are capable of doing this. Based on those verses, all successes and wealth are coming from God, regardless their beliefs.

May you consider this verse,

9:55   So do not be impressed by their wealth or children; God only wishes to punish them with it in the worldly life, and so that their souls will be taken while they are rejecters.

but that doesn't mean we can't be rich and successful, but be careful with it.

On the other hand, people who are believers and submitters seem to struggle with money compared to above celebs and therefore their general quality of life.

Again, another verse,

9:85   And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken while they are rejecters.

I have no longer believe that abundance of money and wealth is a measure of success.

I had once living the affluent life, and then I lost everything I had. But all that is just the process of achieving enlightenment about the real success.

See what God says below,

57:22   No misfortune can happen on the earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do.

57:23   In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be happy of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not love those who are boastful, proud.

For me, success is when we are not sad at what is lost, and not happy at what is given.

I've told my kids, If you are believer, than expect trial from the God,

29:2   Did the people think that they will be left to say: "We believe" without being put to the test?

2:155   And We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. And give good news to those who are patient.

2:214   Or did you expect that you would enter Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said: "When is the victory of God?" Yes indeed, the victory of God is near.

no one will enter paradise without experiencing trials and suffering.

And you will never know that God will give sadness over sadness so that we are unable to be feel sadder anymore.

3:153   For you were ascending to the high ground and would not even glance towards anyone, and the messenger was calling to you from behind. Therefore He gave you with distress upon distress so that you would not have sadness by what has passed you, or for what afflicted you, and God is Expert over what you do.

Magnificent huh?

And you seek help from the God,.. God said,

2:45   And seek help through patience and through the commitment <salat>. It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.

And then Allah takes away your troubles and give you guidance to do hard work

94:1   Did We not comfort your chest,

94:2   And take from you your burden,

94:3   Which had put strain on your back?

94:4   And We have raised your remembrance,

94:5   So with hardship comes ease.

94:6   With hardship comes ease.

94:7   So when you have free time, then stand.

94:8   And to your Lord you shall seek.

and then comes the hardest part of the game, you become a wealthy successful person again.

Having been saved from Pharaoh, Did not make the children of Israel become more faithful.

God has been warned us regarding this,

10:21   And if We let the people taste a mercy after some hardship had afflicted them, they take to scheming against Our revelations! Say: "God is faster in scheming;" Our messengers record what you scheme.

10:22   He is the One who carries you on land and on the sea. And when you are on the ships and We drive them with a good wind which they rejoice with, a strong gust comes to them and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think that they are finished, they implore God with loyalty and devotion to His system: "If You save us from this, we will be of the thankful."

10:23   But when He saves them, they then traverse through the land with injustice. "O people, what you seek out is only the luxury of this worldly life, then to Us is your return and We will inform you of all that you had done."

So that's why I said be careful with rich and successful life. Even most of the children of Israel who were held by the power of God, failed through it.


So you're saying that the God of the UNIVERSE communicates with humanity exclusively through a book that came from Arabia 1400 years ago? It's pretty tough thing to propose. What about those before that ? What about those who were not in Arabia ? Or simply, what about people who had and still have absolutely nothing to do with the Quran? What communication ? Whose God ? The god of arabia ? maybe. The God of all people ? certainly NOT.

Salaam Cerberus,

10:47   And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

It's not necessarily a book that came from Arabia 1400 years ago.

I believe the God described in the Qur'an is very fair in terms of giving guidance to humanity and judging in the hereafter.



Perhaps I'm not intelligent enough to grasp your point (which is entirely possible and possibly the most plausible explanation! ), however, can "signs" not be a method of "communication"?

Thank you.



Salaam Sajda,
It seems not easy for me to explain my thoughts. For me, this starts from communication through the books, where the signs that occur in the universe become confirmation of what was written. I have some examples,

2:164   Surely, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the differences between the night and the day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of the people, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the dispatching of the winds and the clouds that have been commissioned between the earth and the sky are signs for a people who comprehend.

There are even some signs of God that are written specifically in the book that is become tests for human beings. Here is some of them,

Palm-Tree Model
Here you can find my previous posts regarding the palm tree model,

and how it become a test for mankind,

And also the Metonic cycle that for me, it looks like a God's signature,

Pregnancy and Calendar

So, yes you are right, God shows his signs in various forms that we can observe independently, such as mother's womb and the universe, palm tree, metonic cycle, pregnancy calendar, and many more as proofs, but the initial communication is always in written form, or sourced from the books.

Hopefully this can explain my thoughts.


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