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Messages - The_Chimp

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11
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:15:36 PM »
stop the stubborness...

avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...

22:30

Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.

that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...

exaggerating means exceeding what Allah proclaimed... you are exaggerating and stretching a commandment to make it fit within your intolerance narrative...

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that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...

That means worshiping Idols is forbidden. Nice and simple and clear.

12
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:14:07 PM »
I never used the word intoxication...

the thread starts with the title Alcohol/intoxicants, but I only covered the case for Alcohol...

why not stick to khamr, which means fermented...

Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.

"They ask you about "Khamr"..."

This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.

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13
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:10:25 PM »
stop the stubborness...

avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...

Saying:

Quote
stop the stubborness...

Is simply pointless - and an illogical mean.

And evidence points that it is YOU who is stubborn. You are not able to counter my arguments - rather are intent on making a scene.

Look - I even invited you to explain this in particular:

Quote
That is manipulation of what the verse is saying:

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."

Please read with me - and then if you are reading the above verse differently then show exactly how.

[ intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are = defilement]

[and this defilement is: from the work of Satan]

[so avoid it that you may be successful.]

This it refers back to defilement - and defilement refer back to intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows.

So the Almighty is asking us to avoid all of them - including - intoxicant.


http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346768#msg346768

Rather than concentrating and explaining yourself - you went down the root of getting personal. In your wake - you have left question after question unanswered. . . but are trying to strong arm others to accept your views by being personal and somewhat abusive.

Isn't the right thing to do . . . to explain yourself clearly? And simply prove me wrong. Then if I am unable to answer you - this will become apparent. Just as it is apparent that you are not able to answer.



Thank you.

14
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 02:59:11 PM »
Quote
something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented...

But is not alcoholic. Bread is fermented - but not alcoholic. It is not "fermentation" that is forbidden.

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it is loss of control through enebriation ie the state of being drunk, "sukarah" that Allah forbids us to pray when in such a state...

Interesting! Quran actually uses the word La Taqrabu - do not approach. If this can end up being "forbidness". . . then so can "to avoid".

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if Allah clearly wanted to forbid something, He would say so ... He made it clear for the flesh of pork, and for stealing and fornication with corporal punishments...

He did. He said "Avoid". Then end result of avoidance would be that you never go near that thing - in other words it is forbidden.

For example:

"That [has been commanded], and whoever honors the sacred ordinances of Allah - it is best for him in the sight of his Lord. And permitted to you are the grazing livestock, except what is recited to you. So avoid the uncleanliness of idols and avoid false statement,"


22:30

Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.

Here no one will say that Idols are not forbidden.

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so really, those who are trying to be purer than snow are just exaggerating in their system of faith, something Allah does indeed ask us not to do:

"la taghlaou fi dinikum"... do not exaggerate in your faith...

Nasty indirect references to someone are STILL nasty indirect references to someone.

Isn't it telling - you have not been able to define what this "exaggeration" is.

- -

It is clear that you are unable to handle criticism towards your position. Hence, rather than improving your argument; it is the reliance to the well versed way of pick on the person rather on their argument.

15
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 02:06:47 PM »
The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.

It is still . . intoxication.

Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.

يسألونك عن الخمر

Khamr - is primarily reference to "intoxicating beverages" - those that are brewed/fermented.

16
General Issues / Questions / Re: Keeping the Sabbath as a Muslim
« on: January 26, 2014, 01:59:43 PM »
Isaiah is mentioned as one of the righteous prophets (in Surah 21, Surah Al-Anbiyah', The Prophets).  In his prophecy, chapter 58, Isaiah speaks of Shabbat in contrast to the fasting the people had been doing.  Instead, the people are admonished to let the oppressed go free, to share their bread with the hungry, care for the poor, etc.

Then, Isaiah compares those who do these good things, and those who keep the Shabbat in honor of Allah, to people who repair a broken wall.  I imagine this as repairing the wall of protection Allah has placed around His people by giving them good instructions which will guide and protect them.

Finally, Isaiah chapter 58 makes a contrast between doing our own pleasure on Allah's holy day, and calling the Shabbat a delight, speaking Allah's words instead of our own.

In summary, I find several ways in which to celebrate Shabbat:

1) It should be a pleasure but according to what Allah pleases, that is to treat others with mercy.  (Every day, but especially when we have time to take a whole day in deeds of mercy)

2) It should be a day of rest according to the Torah, in the sense of refraining from secular business.  Allah founded Shabbat as a rest, not because Allah was tired (He never gets weary) but because Allah knows that we humans get tired, and so that we could dedicate a day to spend with Allah.  Also to remind us that we are always sustained by Him (so we do not depend on ourselves but on Him).

3) It can be a day to spend especially with family and children, because we are so often too busy to take time with children.  But in spending time with them, it is good to stay away from the artificial things of our world, instead focusing on Allah and what Allah has made for us.  Remembering that Allah has created us.

4) Shabbat was re-instituted at the coming out from Egypt, when Allah judged the gods of Egypt, and gave rest from bondage.  The people were reminded before Moses' death that they had come out of bondage, and as Allah had given them rest, they should share that rest with those who serve them (Deuteronomy 5:12-15)  So we should remember that Allah has given us freedom by forgiving us when we confess to Him, and we should share that freedom with others.  Also, in practical terms, we should seek to lighten others burdens especially on Shabbat so they too can experience rest.

Lighting Shabbat candles and such customs can be helpful for you to experience the rest, but keep uppermost the revealed instructions Allah has given, so that our customs do not detract from the purpose of Shabbat.  While we remain on earth in this life, we all have burdens and hardships, but Shabbat can be a weekly reminder of the rest and joy of living in Allah's presence in the future.

Peace

As far as I know - there is no mention of Isaiah in the Quran.

17
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 01:42:47 PM »
@The_Chimp

you are a very stubborn and argumentative person, and Allah advises me that I do not carry on feeding your trolling tendency...

bye...

Yet - it is clear - the only person being "nasty" is you. I have not been and am not interested in you, personally. So what have I "trolled" on? 

You have made a poor case . . . made a few things up. I asked for evidence. Instead just got personal abuse.



What is abundantly clear is that Alcohol is banned by Quran. But if picking on me makes you feel better . . . for sure.

However - your arguments? You couldn't even convince your own self.



18
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 12:07:42 PM »
Caliphs were humans, and so was Mohammad...

Caliphs were administrators, and erected themselves rulers of an Empire Allah bestowed on the Muslims...

and as in all Empires, the rulers ended up overstepping their remit, becoming dictators and cruel...

Islam came to free people from the tyranny of Man, and initially with Mohammad it did...

but the Caliphs from the Ummayads onwards decided otherwise, and became an authority to benefit themselves, and not the people they were supposed to guide...

prohibition of Alcohol was just a means to exert their power of control... in the higher ranks and in the establishment, it was freely consumed...

look at Saudi Arabia, it epitomises what the Caliphs ended up producing and promoting...

Prohibition of Alcohol did not start with Ummayds. The question put you was regarding the companions of Prophet Muhammad. It is the Prophet Muhammad - who banned it. We have ample historical data for the 3rd generation of Muslim society to show that Alcohol was considered prohibited. At the time of 3rd generation - that is pretty close to the Prophet Muhammad.

 

19
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 12:03:39 PM »
@Zulf salam,

thanks for your input...

you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...

and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...

so as with those who advise not to drink it... good for you for not drinking...

my stand is: I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...

now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...

as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...

Drinking as such does not make on a non-believer. No one claims that. And the almighty has forbidden alcohol from the Quran. You have made up quite a few things. When they were challenged - no answer.

If you are that confident . . . why do you feel the need to keep repeating - what you do? This debate is about whether Quran has forbidden Alcohol or not.

20
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 12:00:00 PM »
Quote
Allah never wrote in The Quran avoid alcohol, in 5:90 avoid refers clearly to Satan, I explained that clearly in my initial post...
so your avoid rationale is useless...

You claim that in the verse 5:90 the reference is "clearly" to Satan - is neither clear nor correct. I have twice challenged this - no reply. Simply affirming your previous incorrect reading of Arabic text is not of much value - UNLESS you counter my argument.

In the verse 5:90 the pronoun refers back to Rijs and not to Satan.

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you are indeed self righteous, and want to show off that you are purer than pure... this is the pride that cast Satan out of the garden...

Incorrect. That is you passing value judgment upon me . . . and I have not reciprocated this towards you. This is and ad hmoniem attack. All such attacks are logical fallacies.

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clean your motives, that will be better for your soul than preaching avoidance of alcohol...

Your argument  clearly does not stand up . . . so this desperate attempt at trying gain an upper hand by illogical means. See when you claimed the above . . . you merely projecting.

As to the avoidance of Alcohol - that is from the Quran.

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and I pray that people like you never be allowed near the levers of power, just look at the messes in Afghanistan and most of the Arab world...

More personal attacks.



You have avoided answering any questions . . . but have turned it against me, personally. This is a sure sign that your arguments cannot stand up and your trying to give them some welly by illogical means.

Merit of the argument is in the quality [soundness and strength] of the argument itself. . .  seeking credence by having a go at me will simply the inadequacy of your argument.

 

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