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Messages - Student of Allah

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I apologize to the creator of the tread for the off topic rant. :D Will try not to do that agian.

-------- Student of Allah


Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away ! E.g., here.

Why bother then ?!?

Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? Don't lie :/

I did not run away. You have to realize that I don't hang around this forum as much as I used to. Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true? Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.  I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape. Not to mention that all the interlocking mathematical models we have of planets (including earth) will have to be discarded despite them having predictive power. (best of luck trying to convince people to throw away all that working model too )

I ask you questions and you answer with things like :

"and why would that be?"

You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work? The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?

It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true. None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal. It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize. 

P.S. Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.

------------ Student of Allah

Science / Re: Earth's Water Likely Came from Very Early Asteroid Strikes
« on: February 29, 2016, 09:38:05 AM »
Salaam and hello.

The Quran says that God sends down water from the sky as a mercy and a blessing, and I?ve always understood this as rain from the clouds, but I've never thought that it could also be understood as water from outer space! (This could be common knowledge, but I didn?t know, LOL!) So when I saw the article, I just had to share it with someone!

After reading the article and doing some searches in the Quran, I noticed that the sending down of water from the sky is also mentioned with the creation of the heavens and the Earth, the creation of the sun and the moon, the creation of plants and creatures, and the Resurrection.

7:26    O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of God, perhaps they will remember.

Now, you have 2 options:

1. Understand that the use of "sent down" in the Qur'an cannot be used as positive proof of things arriving to earth from outer space.
2. Accept that garments came to earth from outer space.

Actually, there is a 3rd option. You can simply be dishonest and cherry pick. You can scream Allahu Akbar and talk about the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an when it talks about iron/water being sent down but just take the verse about the garment on to be something metaphorical.

----------------- Student of Allah

افلمـ يسيروا فى الارض

فتكون لهم قلوب يعقلون بها او اذان يسمعون بها

فانها لا تعمى الابصـر ولكن تعمى القلوب التى فى الصدور


Bias bred from Hatred

= Blindness

Shalom Aleikhem,

Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!

May peace be with you

----------------------------- Student of Allah

General Issues / Questions / Re: Prophet Muhammad wives
« on: February 29, 2016, 09:06:42 AM »
Shalom Aleikhem,


Red: alQuraan does not authenticate what you said.

Neither does it authenticate what the opposite. Or for that matter, what you'd propose it says. As I've pointed out in my other thread, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any accurate assessment to be made from the reading of such an ancient text if we are going to do so based on religious claims/sensitivities.

It will all boil down to a war of subjective interpretations where nobody can prove that their interpretation is right. I think a fairer thing to say would be that traditionally, most interpreters of the Qur'an interpreted the Qur'an to be implying that Muhammad did have multiple wive.

------------- Student of Allah

What is the nature of God? / Re: Basic questions
« on: February 29, 2016, 08:44:25 AM »
Shalom Aleikhem Bender,

After a long time. Hope you are doing well.


With all due respect, I do not believe that you have pondered on your questions in just 3 minutes.

"How can "free will" operate to alter what has been predetermined?"
You have set up a free will, and you decided that that free will has to operate in predetermined way.
How should that be ever possible?
To me it looks like either we have no free will or a free will who is for real free.
I believe in the last case.

I am sure you can find the flaws on your own on the rest of your questions, just give them some more time then 3 minutes.

I think you misinterpreted his question. He wasn't saying that "free will" itself if predetermined. He was saying that God already KNEW how it'll end for that person. Therefore, rendering free will IRRELEVANT and passing judgement ASININE!  If you still don't get it, let me provide the following example:

- You created a humanoid terminator style robot that makes decisions on it's own (FREE WILL)
- EVEN BEFORE MAKING THE ROBOT you KNEW that the robot will go shoot your mom in the face and kill her
- You make the robot, the robot runs to your mom and shoots her in the face killing her

The robot did it out of it's "free will". However, are you free of guilt? You made that robot knowing what it'd do after booting up. That could be held up in a court of law against you. As long as you confess to having full knowledge in advance and still went ahead with your plan to make the robot, you are partly responsible. In fact, between you and the robot, you had more "free will". You could have chosen not to make the robot and your mom would have been alive. But the robot didn't have that luxury. The robot's fat had only ONE outcome which you have foreseen.

What makes all of this more bizarre is that then you end up being the judge who sentences the robot to torture for it's crime!


What if God exists and is not good and not all that intelligent or truthful?

----------------- Student of Allah

Shalom Aleikhem everyone,

Thank you all very much for sharing your thoughts. This issue has always been of major significance to me. In a way, it still is.

Just as Wakas pointed out, my very own method relied on trying to minimize as much bias as possible. I believe that the reason we all have argued so much over the possible interpretations and implications of the reading is precisely because we all wanted to get at the true meaning of what we were reading.

While I do agree that actually putting some effort into understanding the various uses of the words/ contextual uses/ themes throughout the text helps a lot, I still don't see how it can help eliminate bias to a healthy degree. Please understand that I am not starting from the presupposition that the Qur'an has been authored by a deity and is unaltered. This means that while reading this book, I will consider the possibility of statements being there which may be factually wrong or immoral or inconsistent thematically. This means that a believer's scope of interpretation will suffer from even more bias than mine.

As long as the author doesn't show up, as long as words will have multiple meanings, as long as metaphors may be present among absolute statements, I really don't think we can ever objectively study this book. I'd understand if as a believer you wonder why an atheist like me even cares about that. I care because it has always been and always will be my goal to seek the truth. If there are scriptures that really do contain the truth, I'd really love to know them. Unfortunately, this dilemma that I've presented tells me that dealing with scriptures to falsify anything is like playing a game of football where we don't even know if there is a goal post, let alone where it is. We can do all the fancy moves imaginable to man but the fact will remain that nobody will know if they've even scored. The presence of other scriptures makes the matter far more complicated. It makes it such that we don't even know if we are playing in the correct field to begin with.

----------------- Student of Allah

Shalom Aleikhem,

This issue has always been a difficult one for me. In fact, it transcends the Qur'an and can be seen in the study of other ancient scriptures too. Let me state my case:

I believed that the closer to the real meaning of the Qur'an that we can get, the better we will be able to understand and thereby follow the ACTUAL message. That put me in the position where I had to rely on classical Arabic dictionaries, sites like PRL, etc. to try and interpret the Qur'an. Obviously, it wasn't an easy thing to do. To begin with, a lot of the words had MANY different meanings. On top of that, I had to go find similar topics being addressed in the Qur'an to get a sense of the scope of available meanings which I can justify in my translation. After being a member of a community like this one for years, I've realized that not even this method is close to "objective". The two biggest problem I faced were:

- If I was trying to understand the most accurate meaning of , say a verse/word, I was going back to the study of the context along with other similar issues which were described throughout the Qur'an.  The trouble is, those contexts and excerpts were themselves reliant on me translating them/interpreting them using dictionaries/other parts of the Qur'an. This made me feel like there was no way to claim accuracy of the interpretation.

- As though to prove my point, I discovered that the discrepancy in the translations/interpretations of the Qur'an among the people who followed similar methods as I did was huge! I mean, if you have been on this forum for a while, you'd understand what I'm talking about. The diversity of mutually exclusive interpretations of the text which came out of virtually the same methodology of studying the book is striking!

On top of that, please consider that a statement can be literal or metaphorical. That just adds to the problem of ascertaining the most accurate interpretation. This brings me to my main question. Can we do an objective study of the Qur'an to yield accurate interpretation of the text? At the absence of the author, it seems impossible of a task to do. As I've discussed above, it seems like even the most objective rules don't result in the same result when it comes to 2 different people doing the study.

If we now say that the book was not meant to be objective and can only be interpreted on a subjective level, we enter a whole new domain with it's own big problems. For example, I could conclude that the Qur'an teaches us to beat wives without anyone having the right to challenge my interpretation. After all, that is what subjectivity is all about.

Do you think that I've missed out on any method which guarantees that the study will remain objective? I'd like to know if that's the case. This problem always comes back to mess with me irrespective of which scripture I attempt at reading.

--------------- Student of Allah

Shalom Aleikhem Ervin,

So, would you entertain s thought that maybe what I experienced, was from Satan, and how he did it according to the Quran?

No. The most simplistic answer can be found in what you said yourself:

I read your answer on what can Satan do. You said that all he can do is whisper. I have been diagnosed with schizoafective disorder( mixture of schizophrenia and the specific form of bipolar).


That should tell you that your mind suffered from known problems arising out of physiological issues within your physical brain. Therefore, it renders and supernatural explanation redundant.

It's like asking if people think that Satan is pissing through my nose when I've already told them that the doctor diagnosed me with cold and flue.

Anyway, I hope you get well soon.

--------------- Student of Allah

General Issues / Questions / Re: Prophet Muhammad wives
« on: February 26, 2016, 09:49:36 AM »
I was reading a bit of history about prophet Muhamamad and I couldn't get much details about the number of wives he had.

Hadiths mention different numbers and ages.

Does the Quran say something about how many wives he had?

Thank you

Shalom Aleikhem,

Based on the Qur'an alone, all you'll be able to back up is the fact that Muhammad had multiple wives.

What would you do with the number? Just curious.

------------ Student of Allah

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