Messages

Peace  justamuslim,

I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time
they have no coherent answer.   I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was
"I want to know what muslims think"  not "I am interested in becoming muslim",
what a waste of time.  What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions
from someone who was a known atheist.  Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many
posts do a person need to make a decision?  We need to stop wasting our time
and call a kuffar a kuffar.

[13:31] Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.

It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.

I find your argument extremely weak because it is built on the premise that all evil originates from man.

Young babies that die from disease without a chance, natural disasters that wipe out hundreds of thousands, hunger, etc none of these come from humans.

Also I find it weakens your argument when you said in your original post that God chooses not to have power over certain things. This means that God is not all-good. It kind of goes against your point to say something like that. If God is all-good and wants the best for all humans and God also is all-powerful and has the power to make it so, how can he choose not to? If he chooses not to, then that would make him sort of good, not all-good.

Faithful-Jinn here. Been months since I've been over here. It takes a lot of energy and patience to discuss and debate with people you disagree with. Plus college takes a lot of time now.

Anyway Stop I have 2 simple questions for you: Do you believe in the Abrahamic God? If so, why?

Now I'm an atheist but former Muslim. Let me just make a bullet point list of why I don't believe in the Abrahamic God and also why I don't believe in Islam specifically
-I don't believe in magic
-I don't believe in heaven or hell
-The idea of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God is absurd when one observes reality
-Prayer is a case of confirmation bias: The same amount of prayers would be answered for me if I decided to pray to the milk jug in my refrigerator. If my prayer was answered I would thank the milk jug and if it wasn't answered I would say I was at fault
-The Qur'an seems to be written from the perspective of an 8th century Arab man
-I don't believe men are superior or a degree above women
-The Qur'an is no more profound than any other religious text. The Qur'an is not proof of anything but human superstitiousness and gullibility.
-I don't believe Noah lived to be 900 years old and that him and his family had every animal on the planet live with them on an enormous boat for 30 days
-I don't believe Moses had a magical staff
-I don't believe Jonah lived for 3 days in the belly of a fish or a whale

Bottom line: Everything in my human experience and reason tells me that the claims of Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths are not true. I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.

And to faithful-jinn,

May be you are innocent or ignorant in this case, but all your effort all the way seems to consist in picking up the most hideous meaning anywhere and stick to it with passion, as if that held for you some reward, so while you may be in the right in this case, I don't really know, your attitude all along seems to consist in not sparing effort to pronnounce the Qur'an guilty.

Salam

The truth hurts. I don't have to make an effort to do much to be honest. I simply present the facts from the common translations. I mean if you guys want to discuss Qur'an I just go on Qur'an.com and the 8 most established translations from Pickthal, Yusuf Ali, Dr. Ghalil, Sahih International, etc. all are available. They usually all say the same thing if not in slightly different terms. If this is a forum for Qur'an discussion why can I not provide these mainstream translations? These are the translations I assume most Muslims use. I have a Yusuf Ali translation on my dresser and my Maulana Muhammad Ali translation is in New York with my father so I use what I have available.

In actuality I don't have to make an effort to do anything because the facts are on my side. You accuse me of treachery and dishonesty when all I present are facts. Truth will always triumph over falsehood. Next time look at the facts I'm presenting instead of getting disgruntled that you think I'm making your holy Qur'an may contain misogyny or violence. I've never changed the words of the Qur'an and never will. I think it's insulting to do so. But I will use credible translations to quote the Qur'an so next time you see a problem with the verses I present then question the holy Qur'an itself not the messenger.

This has to be a delicate subject for you. Trying to delegitimize our Islam and promoting the sectarian Islam which you find easier to criticize but at the same time you can find yourself a victim of some blasphemy law. A classic case of someone working against his own self interest. This tells me why most supporters of the Quranist persuasion tend to be non Muslims living in Muslim countries. They have to live with the kind of Islam the sects promote.

I don't promote any organized religion. What is with you people constantly attacking me since I deconverted? Is this really what you've learned from Qur'an is to slander me at every opportunity because I challenge your beliefs?

If anything I prefer to see Quranist Islam because it is more progressive and open to reform than mainstream Islam.

Not that I think any organized religions or supernatural beliefs are legitimate anymore, but if I had to pick an Islam to promote this would be it. It is far more advanced in thought and spirituality than Sunni Islam in my opinion.

Oh my goodness...I would have never thought anything like that still existed.  Kind of like those books that talk about weird laws that are still in place (such as you can't kiss a horse on a Thursday in Michigan). 

Hmmm...I am starting to wonder if those weirdos on CNN forums are on to something when they say that there is nothing in law that says one has to pay taxes.

And I learned something new about the Urdu language today...glad I stopped by.

Those laws are not enforced in any way whatsoever. They may still be on the books from 200 years ago but we do not have ANY form of blasphemy laws WHATSOEVER here in the United States.

We pride ourselves on free speech. This is a country where Christians can congregate, atheists can rally, gays can march, and the KKK can walk through the streets.

Everybody is free to exercise their freedom of speech and freedom of religion here.

Faithfuljinn, I don't suppose you mother languages is Arabic. The translation you have put of that aya without any remark on your part denies that.

Indeed it is treacherous and unfaithful translation, but I suppose it is the ideal one for your purposes.

Salaam

That's not my translation. That's good logic's translation without the brackets inserted. I don't speak Arabic so I never provide my own translations.

The original post where I cited verse 2:228 CLEARLY shows I'm using the Yusuf Ali translation.

Please don't be dishonest.

[The divorced women shall wait three menstruations. It is not lawful for them to conceal what God creates in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. The husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail. God is Almighty, Most Wise.]

Salam good logic

Let me now read the translation you provided without the man made insertions in brackets.


The divorced women shall wait three menstruations. It is not lawful for them to conceal what God creates in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. The husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail. God is Almighty, Most Wise.

In both cases the man's wishes are over the woman's.

Even if you take the perspective of this verse pertaining ONLY to pregnancy (which I don't know why you would), this verse still is questionable to my human reason.

Does it make ANY sense to you that in today's world a man should have any right to tell a woman what do with her own body? I mean in cases of pregnancy more than anything this woman is putting her life on the line and is carrying a life in her body for 9 MONTHS in order to bring a child into this world.

I cannot believe that this is divine wisdom.

[2:228Yusuf AliDivorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.]

I don't follow an immoral book just because it claims to be from a higher power. Now as for me needing others to believe what I believe? That's wrong. I don't care if other people don't believe what I do I'm simply voicing my own opinions and counter-arguments and will continue to do so. I don't seek anyone's approval. If I did I wouldn't be on this forum. I find it interesting that so many "Muslims" on this board feel the need to personally make jabs at me when I present counter-arguments. Are you unable to attack my argument without attacking me? Very humble of you all 

Now as for this statement

Many words in every language through history have acquired through different means a different sense from the one they had. I can't see why this sudden impossibility for a word from Qur'an to do so especially when there are vested interests for it to undergo that change. 

I'm not disputing this and it's a credible argument. Word meanings change over time. Is this the case here though or is there a vested interest in consciously changing the meanings of words to be more accepted? I mean if a word changed down the line of history that's one thing but if a word changed because of the personal interests of a small group who wanted to change the meaning of Qur'an that's another one.

As for patriarchal societies trying to change the Qur'an... I don't think it's that simple. The Qur'an is a patriarchal and misogynistic book and Islam is a patriarchal and misogynistic religion. It's right there in the text. Patriarchal societies create patriarchal religions.

Your argument is that the Qur'an had to be "treated" to become patriarchal. It's actually the opposite. The Qur'an has to be "treated" to reinterpreted in a way that doesn't devalue women under men.

But for now I'll accept the position that this verse doesn't necessarily have to mean beat or strike women. Though that then begs the question is there multiple interpretations of verses according to our whims or personal interpretation or is there only one true interpretation. And if there is one true interpretation then why do the words of the Qur'an change meaning?

Can you offer an alternate translation for this verse?

2:228

Yusuf Ali
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

2. Even if many people understood a thing in a certain way, e.g. as "beat", and it has been recorded in "history", then this does not make it the correct understanding. It just makes it the prevalent and common understanding, but not necessarily the correct one. Those are two very different things. We must be very careful not to associate credibility with the number of people following a certain idea.

It's not an idea though it's language. It's a word's meaning. The common usage is exactly what allows language to function.

If "soda" is used as a word for a carbonated soft drink for thousands of years and then all of a sudden a small group of people decide that "soda" actually means a type of hamburger that makes no sense.

When I go to a restaurant and order a soda they know I want a drink.

If they come to my table and bring me a hamburger when I ask for a soda I'm going to wonder what the hell is going on. If they tell me that the common usage of "soda" is wrong and that in their restaurant "soda" means hamburger I'm going to think they're crazy.