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Messages - Fadiva

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« on: July 10, 2020, 03:37:58 PM »

I have only read the 7 first pages of your article, I hope to be able to comment after reading it entirely.
(I had also noticed the use of him/it in verse 146 'know him/it as they know their own sons" wondering what was it about)


"2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful."
Ok, but how can people  who have the Book of God trust a man that shows them another qiblah ? (unless it is mentioned in this Book).

"4. Qibla should have shifted back to Jerusalem after Mohammed's death (2:144 is specific to Mohammed, without him, 2:125 would dominate)."

Are you sure of this ? Any clue ?

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Verses 2.143- 145
« on: July 08, 2020, 02:22:13 PM »

How do you understand those verses ?
 ( I quoted sahih international translation, I checked other translations, and found the same meanings ( more or less) and took them into consideration)
Sahih International: And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Did Allah change the qiblah ( direction ?) ?

Sahih International: We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

And chose a qiblah tnat pleased the messenger ?

Sahih International: And if you brought to those who were given the Scripture every sign, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers.

Sahih International: Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]

Those who have been given the scripture knew the truth refused to follow Muhammad's qiblah and have several qiblah.
So they knew the truth from their Book and refused to follow the messenger's qiblah ( that has changed (?)) and some of them concealed the truth.
If  we consider that the qiblah has changed ( understood this after reading several translations into French), this is different from what they have in their Book ( and they knew the truth from it)... I am quite confused 

There is one Qiblah that everyone should follow, and it is a physical direction here (understanding).


I haven't visited the link you gave but we had ( still have ?) the same in French.

I remember having read some of the so callend Quran's scientific miracles several years ago in French site and forum. Most of them were verse manipulation (mostly cut verses and "new" translation of  a few words) and even the scientific resaerch articles were manipulated.
Those manipulations were easily refuted by both non muslims and  some muslims.
I noted that some muslims believed them without checking the Quran. At this time, I really thought that some muslims can easily believe what is sent by others muslims.


Have you ever discussed it with an atheist ? The ones to be conviced are atheists who reject the existence of God
Once one convinced another question is : what is the relation with the scriptures ?, as some see them as human made. I remember an agnostic asking why not several gods ? and the answer of a muslim was something like that " if there were several gods they will fight". He/She failed.

I have ever seen the questions of unbelievers in forums, and most of the believers who tried to answer failed, in some questions and finally gave up. They were accused of their silence (maybe as cowardice).
The lack of knowledge from some believers comforted unbelievers in their beliefs (I think). The problem is the fact that some open a topic in order to convince atheists but don't know well the scripture (Bible or Quran,etc...) they believe in.
And one of the worst behaviour is to cut a verse to make him say what they want in order to convince, how can they believe that they will succed ? (some "muslims" did that ( and non muslims but that this is not the point here) and were labelled as liars).

Maybe I 'm talking to much... ;D

General Issues / Questions / Re: Concerns
« on: June 17, 2020, 02:15:42 PM »
Peace Jafar,

No, I don't think Scriptures = God but His message.
Yes, when I was an agnostic I thought that there can be a God excluding scriptures.

It is ok to have no fears, but this does not necessarily mean that we are right.

Yes, it's right that some people use fears to prevent people from seeking other things or even from thinking otherwise. And religions are accused of manipulating their believers by some people.

I remember having read a message from a French muslim thinker (I don't remember is name) saying that if there was no Hell, a lot of "muslims" will not follow Islam (something like that) if I remember well) meaning that fear of hell holds them back. Maybe he was right maybe be wrong. But I think he was talking according to his experience of life, his meetings with other muslims.
The idea of hell is in the average muslim minds ( maybe a majority of them). Maybe more than the thinking of paradise.

 Peace nimnimak.
in black = minimak, in purple = me

1) We cannot understand impossibilities (things that can never exist such as married bachelors)

I think so... more precisely something which directly "contradicts"( i think there is a more appropriate word) the other thing like two opposite colors to discribe one color; bleu/red: it is bleu or red. (otherwise they are two color red and blue or a mix of them: purple or violet). This also depends on the definitions and understandings we have for words.

2) That which is not an impossibility either necessarily exists (necessity) or at the very least can come into existence (possibility). Where necessity or possibility is not the case, impossibility (round square) or meaninglessness (sdfjksdfj) is necessarily the case and vice versa.

Can you reformulate to be more precise ?
For you is possibility related to ability of imagination ?

3) We understand human and unicorn. Given 1-2, either p) humans/unicorns exist (necessity) or q) humans/unicorns can come into existence (possibility). With humans we know that both p and q are true. With unicorns we don't know if p is true, but we know that q is true because unicorns are hypothetically possible as opposed to hypothetically impossibile.

Yes. We can imagine thing like unicorn and its potetially possible. We can reason with possibilities and impossibilities, something which is not impossible can be possible, ok. But if we are talking about probabilities, thinks are different. I think that a lot of people reason with probabilities and take into consideration the environement they live in, more precisely the knowledge about it (named laws of nature). And what contradicts it, is rejected by some people.

4) Like human and unicorn, we understand omnipotence (almightiness). Therefore either p*) something omnipotent exists (necessity) or q*) something omnipotent can come into existence (possibility)

Yes but keep in mind that our understanding is limited, and some people understand more than other people. We have an idea of "omnipotence" (maybe a more clear idea for some believers)but I think we don't know how it is extended (I mean all the extent of this power).

5) Nothing can become omnipotent from a non-omnipotent state. This is because omnipotence logically requires reach and access to all things. This requires true omnipresence (to be all-present). Since nothing can become truly omnipresent without being truly omnipresent in the first place, nothing can become omnipotent from a non-omnipotent state. Also, that which is truly omnipresent cannot magically shift from being non-omnipotent to being omnipotent. That would be a case of something coming from nothing (which is absurd)

So, you mean that "something" which is omnipotent is uncreated. Ok.
I've never understood the question : who created God ? This question has not have to be for me.

6) Given the fact that we cannot understand impossibilities, and given the fact that we understand omnipotence, then either p* or q* or both must be true. 5 shows that q* is logically impossible, therefore; p*) something omnipotent exists (necessity). In other words, neither impossibile, meaningless or possible; therefore necessary.

You can change omnipotence to true Perfection (God/Allah) and you will still get the same result.

I think you have to clarify some parts, like what I have change in red. I quite understood what you said, but it I think it would be useful to clarify so that it can be clear to most of the the people here.

And in important thing ( I think): the definitions of words we have in mind or can understand, can have an effect on the result of our reasonning

General Issues / Questions / Re: Concerns
« on: June 15, 2020, 06:55:00 AM »
What is that?
I don't recommend you to believe.
I recommend you to question and seek, so you will KNOW and NOT BELIEVE.

Religion however took the opposite approach.
Kim Jong Un asked his believer to BELIEVE that he invented hamburger and North Korea is the best country in the world. Those who dare to question such belief and/or seek the actual knowledge will be horribly punished.

Another commonality among 'believer' is, who that they fear the most?
It's the unbeliever, because the cause of their fear do not works to cause fear against unbeliever.

How can you conquer something if you haven't been exposed to it?
You cannot conquer fear by not feeling the fear, without the sense of fear you will not have any reference of what is fear in the first place. Isn't it?
How can you conquer something when you don't know what is that thing in the first place?

That's why I recommend you to TRACE your fear. Questioned it! What is fear? Why? How?
Only by tracing the path then you will KNOW, once you KNOW you can easily conquer it.

Peace Jafar,

I understood that you didn't recomand me to believe, I just ask you if you consider yourself as a deist ?
There are a lot of things we can't know, even if I question myself. But we can reach to an answer if we look for it, but for some things not all things. And of course, I think that without doing anything we can't reach anything.

I don't thing that all the believers fear the unbelievers. But some people can question themselves if someone think otherwise, and maybe even more if a majority think otherwise. I think that some people are upset if someone else think otherwise, and even more if they are enable to answer their questions.

I have  been exposed to it : unbelief (I could describe myself as an agnostic), and during that period of time in my life, I wasn't exposed to those fears. But "something", I don't know how to explain it, twice or more times led me to reconsider beliefs and approach God and try to be fair and read the scripture(s). I really want to be fair and if I do otherwise it causes suffering to me. I don't know if you understand me.

We can't have all the answers but we can trust. And of course we mustn't trust blindly.
I am someone who is conscious that as a humain being I can do mistakes. I don't turn a blind eye on my weaknesses.

General Issues / Questions / Re: Concerns
« on: June 14, 2020, 02:53:21 PM »
And the non believers are correct!

Religion like Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Mardukism, Ancient Egyptianism, Arab Paganism, Kimism, Stalinism, Nazism, Japanese Empire Facism, Saudi-ism uses fear to dominate over other people. You should be suspicious of anything that uses or leverage fear to attain their objective of domination.

Pride, Domination, Fear that's key characteristics of the dark forces, regardless of name or label that they're using.
The same goes even on personal level... friend, boyfriend, husband, family member, superior, boss, work colleague etc..

Yet once you conquer the fear, they have no power whatsoever over you.

Peace Jafar,

We are going out of topic, but are you  a deist ? Someone who believe in one God but not in any scripture ?

I know that if we don't fear something, it hasn't an(psychological) effect on oneself.
But not feraing something does not mean there isn't any danger.

Salaam alaikum.
I have been a visiting ourbecon forum since 2008. Many of times moderators their delete posts without notifying why they r doing that.
Recently I Posted their the same question which I posted here at FM i.e Muhammad(s) location. One of the moderator their,Khalil khan,a very arrogant person instead of replying or not to the question he asked me what is the proof that I am an Indian Muslim.To that I replied,u r talking like NarendraModi,Pm of India,who is also asking the same question to Indian Muslim. Khalil khan deleted the entire thread. Such a arrogant person.
Ourbeacon is loosing its touch.


Is that the fact to be an Indian muslim matters ? As non Indian we can't share our opinion? or as non muslim ? Or should you be both of them ?
They seems to be very suspicious (reading your post). You shouldn't participate in a discussion forum in which you think censure is overused.

General Issues / Questions / Re: Concerns
« on: June 12, 2020, 10:18:30 AM »
Peace Jafar,

Yes, I should dig deeper into the problem.

"Of course, they invented angry and nasty god(s), to instill FEAR, as such they can control and dominate over other people. It's a common and recurring pattern since ancient times up until today."

Yes. And non believers (maybe most of them) think that "religions" like islam uses it ( fear) to dominate over other people. (but it's another subject).

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