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Messages - Fusion

#1
Are you trying to say that people who adopt Islam go astray? Or are you suggesting the traditional faith is not the correct one?

Your Flipping changes the direction and the meaning of the verse. So even if it sounds close, it may appear as a distortion of the original intent.

Nevertheless if you can reveal your motive, perhaps I may understand your trying to explain what?

The literal translation sounds like "Whoever replaces disbelief with faith."

يَتَبَدَّلِ = he exchanges / swaps / replaces

الْكُفْرَ = disbelief (object being replaced)

بِالْإِيمَانِ = with faith (what it's being replaced with)

The verb تَبَدَّلَ [X] بِـ [Y] means:

To take X and swap it for Y → meaning X is what you end up with, and Y is what you give up.

So on the surface it sounds like:
"Disbelief is being removed, and faith is being taken.
Which would be a positive action — like becoming a believer.

I asked with my colleague here in Arabia and according to him in Arabic grammar, the object before the verb (الكفر) is what's being taken, and the thing after بـ (الإيمان) is what's being replaced. So the verse means: 'Whoever takes disbelief in place of faith' — not the other way around. Even literal translations must follow this rule — otherwise they reverse the meaning.

I welcome native arabic speakers to please advise on this.





#2
Thank you GL for your reply. I concur that the Quran is the ultimate messenger for all generations ; complete, preserved, and always accessible.

That is exactly why I don't see the need for a new human rasul after Muhammad. The Quran already fulfills that role fully. If someone simply directs people back to the Quran, then the message is already here , without needing another official messenger.

Appreciate the discussion and your openness.

Peace.
#3
I appreciate your openness Brother to both agreement and disagreement. That's what makes discussion fruitful.

You mentioned the idea that another messenger would come to bring bayyinat, and that this is being fulfilled now [it is clear that you see Rashad Khalifa as the "messenger of the covenant" and believes the Quran is having a second coming through him]. At the same time, I know there are different views in the wider Quranist community on this. But speaking strictly from the Quran, I do not find any verse that clearly speaks of a future rasul after the one who brought the Quran.

Verses like 33:40 describe Muhammad as the seal of the prophets, and the Quran speaks of the religion being perfected and the Book being complete. The message has been sent to all humanity, and the Quran itself is preserved as a living reminder. I do not see a basis in the text for expecting a divinely appointed messenger to come after that and especially one who introduces a new phase or title.

As for bayyinat, the Quran says it has already brought clear proofs:


"This [Quran] is enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain." (45:20)
"These are the signs of the Book, a clear Quran." (26:2)

So I see the Quran itself as the bayyinat. The message is already here and always available. Our task is to return to it, reflect on it, and apply it in our lives.

You are right that technology is helping to spread the Quran wider than ever before. That is a blessing. But I see it as a rediscovery of the same eternal message and not a second coming or a new messenger. If anything, the Quran itself is the final hujja, and it stands independent of personalities.

Thanks again for the exchange. I always welcome thoughtful discussion rooted in the Book.

Peace and blessings.
#4
Peace,

Just to clarify where I explain my understanding of Quran 44:13–14 is that it refers to Prophet Muhammad. The verses describe a people who were already sent a clear messenger, but they rejected him and said he was taught by someone else and called him mad. That's the same pattern found in other verses where the Quraysh accused Muhammad of being taught by a human and dismissed him as insane.

In a previous reply, I mentioned the traditional position that no messenger can come after Muhammad. That was not because I base my view on traditional scholars, but to show how even within that framework, the logic around finality is centered on the sealing of prophethood. My actual position is Quran-based, and I try to understand everything directly from the Book, even if I occasionally reference other views to show the broader discussion.

I do not agree with the idea that the Prophet was illiterate. The Quran calls him ummi, but that term fits the context of someone not educated in previous scriptures, not someone who couldn't read or write. There's no verse that says he was illiterate. The Book describes him as being taught by God, not by people. So when disbelievers accused him of being muallam, they were trying to dismiss the message by claiming it came from a human source, which is what we see in other places too.

The messenger in these verses had already come. The people had already rejected him. There is no hint that it is about a future messenger. And when the Quran says Muhammad is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets, and that the religion was completed, the message is closed. Any returning to guidance has to come through the Quran itself; not a new rasul.
#5
Dear GL and Rauf
I just wanted to share my understanding on this topic too. I feel discussions like these are only useful if we stay open to different viewpoints. When everyone just holds on to their opinion no matter what, even when there are valid counterarguments, it kind of stops being helpful. We all learn and grow through open and respectful conversations.

There are several verses in the Quran related to this, and I have tried to summarize my current understanding. Of course, I am open to correction if needed, but this is how I see it for now.

Nabi (Prophet): A nabi is someone who receives divine revelation (prophecy) from Allah. Prophets are often given scriptures, wisdom, and authority to guide their people.

For example, the Quran says: 6:89 "These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and wisdom, and Prophethood...", indicating that a nabi is entrusted with scripture (Book) and wisdom (Hikmah). In short, a nabi is a recipient of God's news/revelation.

Rasul (Messenger): A rasul literally means "one who is sent" with a message or mission. In Quranic usage, a rasul is a messenger appointed by God to convey His message to people. The term rasul emphasizes the mission of delivering guidance. Notably, the Quran uses rasul in a broader sense than nabi. For instance, angels can be called rasul (messengers) of God ; the angel who appeared to Mary introduced himself as "I am only a messenger (rasul) from your Lord to announce to you a pure son" (19:19), showing that rasul can refer to an angelic messenger as well. Even ordinary human envoys are termed rasul in the Quran (e.g. the king's envoy to Joseph in 12:50 is called rasul.

The King then˺ said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him, Joseph said, "Go back to your master and ask him about the case of the women who cut their hands. Surely my Lord has ˹full˺ knowledge of their cunning."
Thus, rasul means any envoy carrying a message.

Now the Overlap:

In the context of divine guidance, most major figures in the Quran are both prophets and messengers as they receive revelation and are sent to convey it. The Quran sometimes explicitly pairs the terms, calling someone "a messenger, a prophet". For example, Moses and Ismael are each described as "kanā rasūlan nabiyyān" i.e "he was a Messenger (rasul) [and] a Prophet (nabi)".
This shows that these individuals fulfilled both roles. Indeed, whenever a prophet conveys God's revelations to others, he is acting as God's messenger.
This is an inclination that every prophet by definition carries God's message to people, thus serving as a messenger; conversely, delivering God's message (being a rasul) requires first receiving it via prophecy, in other words, "to become a Messenger of God, the person must be appointed by God first and that appointment is Prophethood. The person who receives prophecy (revelation) is a Nabi. This means before becoming a rasul of Allah, the person must be a Nabi.

Although all prophets are messengers in a general sense, the Quranic usage suggests not all who are called rasul are nabi. The term rasul can apply to a wider array of God's agents. Quran 22:52 pointedly uses both terms, indicating they are not synonymous: "We did not send before you any messenger (rasul) nor any prophet (nabi), except that when he recited [Our message], Satan interfered..."

By listing messenger and prophet separately, the verse implies a rasul is not always a nabi, though the mission of both is divinely ordained.

Verse 33:40

"Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets (khatam an-nabiyyīn)"
This verse explicitly confers two titles on Muhammad: Messenger of God and Seal of the Prophets. The phrase "Seal of the Prophets" is understood by virtually all readers to mean that he is the final prophet i.e. the line of prophethood has been closed with him.
In Arabic, khatam (seal) conveys completion or finality; thus no new nabi will come after Muhammad.

What 33:40 does not say: Importantly, the verse does not say Muhammad is the "seal of the messengers." It mentions the messenger (rasul) role and then specifically seals the prophets (nabi). This precise wording is at the heart of the debate I think. Therefore, in GL view, Muhammad is the last prophet, but not necessarily the last messenger. Any post-Muhammad messenger would not bring a new scripture or religion (which would require prophethood), but would simply convey or confirm the existing divine message (The Quran).

On the other side, Traditional Islamic interpretation says being the final prophet also means no messenger can come after. Their reasoning is that a "messenger of God" isn't just a motivational speaker i.e it's someone directly commissioned by God with a message. And that divine commissioning requires prophecy (some form of revelation or inspiration from God). Since Muhammad was the final nabi, by definition no one after him can receive a new message from God to deliver.  A rasul who didn't get prophecy from Allah is not Allah's messenger , instead they would be a fake messenger. In other words, any legitimate future rasul Allah (messenger of God) would have to get divine communication, which the Quran says will not happen after Muhammad. Thus, they argue, Muhammad was the last messenger in effect, even if the Quran stops short of saying it in those exact words.

It's worth noting that the Quran describes Muhammad's own mission as universal and definitive, which supports the idea that no successor is needed. Muhammad is addressed as "a messenger to all mankind" (34:28) and the Quran is called a complete, perfected revelation (5:3). Once the final Prophet delivered the final message, the guidance needed for humanity was seen as complete. Therefore, any future "messenger" could only repeat or remind people of what was already conveyed through Muhammad i.e. a role that Islamic scholars already fulfill by spreading the Quran.

Now, let's examine whether the Quran itself gives any indication of messengers coming after Muhammad or if it negates that possibility.

Those who argue for the continuation of messengers (rasuls) often cite Quran 7:35 and similar verses. In 7:35, Allah addresses humanity at large: "O Children of Adam! If there come to you messengers from among yourselves, reciting My verses to you, then whoever becomes mindful of Allah and reforms ' there will be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve."
Notably, this verse is addressed to the "Children of Adam", a phrase the Quran uses for all humankind generically (appearing in verses that give general guidance to every human).
The wording "if (ever) messengers come to you..." is open-ended – it does not restrict the timeframe. It implies that throughout human history (as long as "Children of Adam" exist), God's messengers may come, and whenever they do, people are expected to heed their message. Unlike verses that speak of past nations, 7:35 does not put this in past tense; it uses a conditional format that could include the present and future.

How to understand 7:35 in context? In Surah Al-Araf, this verse comes after the story of Adam's fall and other advice to the Children of Adam (see 7:26–34). It echoes the promise Allah made when Adam was sent to earth: "Whenever guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance shall not fear or grieve" (2:38). In 7:35, "guidance" is specified as messengers reciting My verses. This can be seen as a general principle of God's interaction with mankind: He will send guidance via messengers, and those who accept it will be saved.

GL's interpretation (Open-ended Principle): assert that 7:35 confirms a continuing principle ; that God could send messengers at any time, even after Muhammad. They point out there is nothing in the verse limiting it to before Muhammad. In fact, since it addresses all "Children of Adam" it would include people living after the Prophet as well.
The verse doesn't say "until a certain point, messengers will come"; it simply gives the formula for whenever they come. Therefore, if Allah chose to send another messenger (not prophet) to guide people using His verses (e.g. calling them back to the Quran), 7:35 would already have told us to consider and not reject such an individual out of hand.

Traditional Islamic interpretation (Completed Cycle): backed by many scholars have opposing view where verses like 7:35 describe the general pattern of past ages, not a promise for the future post-Quran era. They read 7:35 as applying up to and including Muhammad's time. In this reading, by the time the Quran was revealed, that principle had manifested in the line of prophets ending in Muhammad. After him, there is no need for any new messenger, since the Quran is available to all humanity as guidance. Proponents of this view note that Muhammad was sent as a messenger to all peoples (34:28) and "We have not neglected anything in the Book" (6:38), implying that no further divine envoy is necessary to deliver new guidance. Moreover, they argue that if someone claims to be a "messenger" after Muhammad, how would we verify their authenticity? The Quran gives no prophecy of a specific messenger to come later, and with prophethood ended, there is no mechanism for a new messenger to receive new verses to recite. Thus, while 7:35 is general, by sealing prophethood the Quran effectively sealed messengership of any authoritative kind.

Are There Messengers Who Were Not Prophets (and vice versa)?

Examples of Rasul (Messenger) without Nabi: The strongest case of human messengers who might not have been prophets is in 36:13–17. It tells of a town to which God sent a team of messengers: "We sent to them two [messengers], but they rejected them, so We reinforced [them] with a third. They said, 'Indeed, we are messengers to you.'"
These three are called mursalīn (sent ones) by the Quran. They certainly had a divine mission, yet the Quran does not call them nabi. Who were they? The text doesn't name them, but some commentators (not relying on Quran alone) thought they were disciples of Jesus ; essentially missionaries carrying the message of Jesus to another town. If that is true, it perfectly illustrates rasuls who are not independent prophets: they were sent by God's will to preach, but they received their message through Prophet Jesus (a nabi before them). Even without that background, the Quran depicting "messengers" in a group is unusual, since prophets are usually single figures. This suggests these could be envoys under the guidance of a current prophet. Another example is that Allah calls the apostles of Jesus (al-Hawāriyyūn) His supporters but does not call them prophets ; they helped deliver Jesus's message. While the Quran doesn't label the disciples rasul, it is clear they preached the message but did not receive new revelation themselves. Additionally, as mentioned earlier, angels delivering God's word are rasul. The angel Gabriel is referred to as Rūḥanā (Our Spirit) in 19:17 and speaks of himself as a messenger of Allah to Mary. Angels are obviously not prophets (prophethood is a human role), yet they are messengers. These examples show "messenger" has a broader scope than "prophet".

Examples of Nabi (Prophet) without explicit Rasul title: The Quran sometimes uses nabi for figures without detailing a specific message they delivered to a nation. For instance, Idris  is called "a man of truth and a prophet" (19:56) but there is no story of Idris preaching to a people in the Quran. He is not called a messenger. Similarly, other prophets in the Abrahamic line like Ishaq (Isaac) and Yaqub (Jacob) are recognized as prophets (2:136, 6:84), but the Quran does not describe them each coming with a new Sharia or book to a distinct nation ; rather, they upheld the creed of their fathers. They were nabi, guiding their family or tribe with the already revealed message, though the Quran doesn't narrate them as rasul delivering a new proclamation to a populous. This suggests that nabi can refer to someone who receives divine guidance (and is part of the chain of prophecy) even if they are not the primary messenger to a large community with a new scripture.

Dual titles for the major figures: Most major figures such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. ; function as both prophets and messengers, and the Quraan uses both terms for them. For example, Noah is called a messenger in 26:115, Hud and Salih (prophets to Ad and Thamud) both say "we are messengers" to their people, and Jesus is explicitly called rasul in Quran 61:6. Yet all of them are also acknowledged as prophets in the sense of receiving revelation. Aaron (Harun) is an interesting case: Quran 19:53 وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥ مِن رَّحْمَتِنَآ أَخَاهُ هَـٰرُونَ نَبِيًّۭ calls Aaron explicitly a prophet (nabi), and elsewhere Moses asks God to "send Aaron with me" in the mission to Pharaoh. When confronting Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron together say "We are the two messengers of your Lord" (26:16-17). So Aaron, though not the originator of the Torah, acted as a co-messenger with Moses. This reinforces that a messenger of God generally has prophetic status (Aaron was granted prophethood to assist Moses), but one can be a prophet (like Aaron or Isaac) whose role is mainly supporting or continuing another messenger's mission.

Bottom line: Based on the Quran, every divinely sent messenger to a people was at least implicitly a prophet, because they had to receive communication from God. However, not every prophet founded a new religious law or scripture; some followed and reinforced existing messages. The Quran's language does allow that rasul can be a broader category (including angels or possibly lesser envoys), but a rasul Allah to humanity would need the credentials of a nabi. As Quran 2:151 indicates, Allah sends messengers who recite His verses ; implying those verses were revealed to them. Thus, Quranic logic leans toward the idea that a bona fide Messenger of God among humans comes through the channel of prophethood. No wonder the Quran often pairs "messengers and prophets" together when discussing guidance (as in 22:52 or 17:55), showing they are closely linked roles.

In conclusion, when strictly sticking to the Quran's text and its internal logic, we find that Muhammad is the final prophet, and by implication the final messenger bearing a new message from God. The Quran provides no explicit anticipation of any future messenger. Any true messenger to humanity must have divine sanction, which ended with Muhammad's prophethood. Therefore, while one can linguistically distinguish rasul and nabi, in practice the Quran treats them as inseparable in the context of guidance. All prophets delivered messages, and no messengers will come after the last prophet. The duty of carrying God's message forward now falls upon the scripture (the Quran itself as the enduring "Message") and those who believe in it.

Peace.


#6
Indeed, GL. The Quran is a gift like no other and a message preserved and offered for our guidance.
Thank you for sharing such a meaningful video.

And yet despite this divine clarity look at where we are? Corruption, greed, injustice spreading faster than ever.

It makes me wonder:

Have we really engaged with the message, or have we simply admired it from a distance?


I often ask if the truth is so powerful, why do lies still rule the world? Maybe the real test is not whether the Quran is perfect... but whether we are willing to live by it, even when it is uncomfortable.

By "uncomfortable," I meant how the Quran calls us to rise above our lower selves but we often fall short. For example:

📖 The Quran tells us to give up selfishness and ego
➤ Yet many of us struggle to let go. Even here in this forum, it's often about "I am right."

📖 It calls out injustice, even when it benefits us
➤ But we continue to rely on corrupt systems in our daily lives without question.

📖 It commands us to be just—even against ourselves or our loved ones
➤ Yet nepotism and favoritism are deeply rooted in our cultures.

📖 It urges us to speak the truth, even if we fear consequences
➤ But we remain silent, afraid of people's reactions, unable to stand up for the oppressed in today's world.

📖 It reminds us of death, accountability, and humility
➤ Yet we boast about our houses, cars, and lifestyles as if we'll live forever. We chase wealth, play lotteries, and live for comfort.

and the list goes on.


#7
Thanks for sharing Emre and your message cleared up something that often misunderstood as we usually think perfection means no illness no pain no injustice or flaws in creations, but your explanation shifts that view in a meaningful way and in instant twist.

As you said it is perfectly designed to be a place of testing a mix of comfort and hardship and something that will eventually come to an end and that makes sense when we think about the purpose behind this world.

Appreciate you sharing this perspective.
#8
On the first part, I could not have explained it better than GL did.

The Quran was revealed in Arabic, but that does not mean Umm al Kitab [the source of all divine knowledge] is limited to Arabic. It is a universal repository of truth, and previous scriptures, though revealed in different languages, also originated from it.

So in short, divine truth was revealed across time, but the Quran remains the most reliable and complete source today. Arabic was simply the language chosen for the final revelation, ensuring clarity for its first audience, but the message itself transcends language.

#9
Quote from: hawk99 on March 14, 2025, 09:24:29 PMPeace All,

    Interesting thread, I was wondering, what do members think of the verse about "Umm al-Kitab".


God bless you all.

                                        :peace:

Salam Hawk,

Based on the verses which contain this word and the surrounding verses -add to it what GL explained. I believe It is a common factor - sort of a meeting point where God's Absolute knowledge and the human realm of guidance connect.

Think of it as universal database of divine knowledge ==> the governing system of reality, where both revelation and destiny originate. The Quran which is revealed in Arabic originates from a divine record that holds all revelations given to humanity across time, think of it as an installment from that grand source, adapted for human understanding (else divine wisdom operates on a scale beyond human perception).

Since am from Technology background we have something called single source of truth and i consider meaning of Um Al Kitab as The Divine Database, the Origin of all information (a cosmic register of all data, all laws, all events).

So for example when the Quran says Allah can erase or confirm what He wills, means the rise and fall of Nations based on whether they follow divine principles, but all of it follows the laws contained in the "Divine Database" of Allah's knowledge.

IN OTHER WORDS, nothing is random or chaotic; everything is according to sunnat Allah which is ultimately documented in the Mother of the Book.

#10
GL, this war is tragic and the ones who suffer most are always the ordinary people caught in the middle. The way things are playing out feels all too familiar. Wars start, narratives shift, and in the end, those in power decide when it is time to "talk peace." But real peace is never just about signing deals, it is about justice, and history shows that justice is rarely the priority.

Wars may have different names but they follow the same pattern. Power struggles, shifting narratives, and the illusion of peace when it serves an agenda. The Quran speaks about justice, sincerity in resolving conflicts, and warns against deception in war. Hudaybiyyah showed how peace deals can be tactical, the hypocrites in Madina proved that not everyone who talks about peace actually seeks it, and Pharaoh controlled the narrative to justify oppression.

Is what is happening now any different from what has always happened in history? The world wars, the rise and fall of empires, or even the battle between the Persians and Romans that the Quran mentions in 30:2-4, where power kept shifting but the cycle of war remained the same?

I see all of this as unfolding according to God's plan. He knows exactly what this game is about. At the same time, He allows people to use their free will so that on the Day of Judgment, no one can have an excuse to deny their wrongdoing. Every nation, every leader, and every individual will have to face what they did.

The big question I always ask myself is what is the actual meaning behind all of this, this life, this world, the beauty and the beast. We talk about good and evil, free will, Satan, and Adam, but in the end, it all unfolds as God has written. Only He knows the full purpose of this entire narrative of the world and the universe. What we do know is that He has given us guidance, and for that, we are grateful. In times like these, when wars rage and uncertainty grows, I find myself reciting Al Fatiha more often, asking God to keep us on the path of those He has blessed, not those who have gone astray or earned His wrath. That is all we can do with the little control we have, seek His guidance and trust His wisdom.