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#1
The Quran says some nations did not receive a warner before Prophet Muhammad. For example:

📖 Surah Yaseen (36:6)
"So that you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, and so they are heedless."

📖 Surah Al-Qasas (28:46)
"But [you were sent] as a mercy from your Lord to warn a people to whom no warner had come before you, so that they may take heed."

📖 Surah As-Sajdah (32:3)
"It is the truth from your Lord so that you may warn a people to whom no warner had come before you, so that they may be guided."

But this raises big questions:

🔹 If their forefathers had no prophet, how can they be blamed for following the wrong path?
🔹 The Quran also says: "And We do not punish [a people] until We have sent a messenger." (17:15) — does this mean those without a prophet will not be punished?
🔹 Were the Quraysh supposed to figure out monotheism on their own, maybe through Abrahamic teachings or by interacting with Jews and Christians?

Another point: Prophet Muhammad is described as "a mercy to the worlds."

📖 Surah Al-Anbiya (21:107)
"And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds."

Each prophet has a symbolic role. Jesus is called Messiah, Moses is known for laws and miracles, but Muhammad is specifically called a mercy.

🔹 Does this make his role exceptional compared to other prophets?
🔹 Is this just about his teachings, or does it mean something greater about his mission?

Curious to hear different perspectives on this. Thank you folks.

#2
Salaam everyone,

I hope you are all doing well. I have been reflecting on the recent discussions in this forum, and I have decided it is time for me to step away from this website for some time.

The heated exchanges, like the one between KDC501 and Bajram, are not isolated incidents. It seems many of us are more focused on intellectually proving others wrong rather than fostering a spirit of mutual learning and respect. This goes against the very essence of what I believe our discussions should be about.

Sometimes, Satan can attack us through our strengths. Our deeper understanding of the Quran should bring us humility, not arrogance. True followers of the Quran exhibit humility and respect, even in disagreement and not laugh at others or be sarcastic or lately what we seen.

I hope we can all remember this moving forward and strive to embody the true spirit of the Quran.

Thank you all for the insights and discussions.
#3
Peace every one,
The discussion appears to be shifting towards an understanding of verse 47:4.
I wanted to share my thoughts on Chapter Muhammad (47:4), which pretty much line up with what GA Pervez translated. I think this verse gives clear guidance on how to handle conflict and what to do after the battle is over, with the main aim being to bring about peace.

Before the Battle
First off, the verse seems to come from a situation where conflict is unavoidable. It is not about starting fights, but about what to do when you are already forced into one.

During the Battle
When the verse says "strike their necks," I believe it means to engage strongly and effectively in battle. It is similar to saying "take no prisoners," which means to fight decisively. The goal is to break the enemy's strength in the heat of battle, not necessarily to behead them literally [THS emphasizes that the phrase is metaphorical rather than literal].

After the Battle
Once the enemy is subdued, the verse tells us to take prisoners. This means handling the situation humanely after the fight. The captives can either be released as an act of kindness or exchanged for ransom, depending on what makes sense at the time. This shows mercy and fairness, even towards those who were just your enemies.

The Big Picture: Restoring Peace
The main objective here is to stop further conflict and bring back peace and order. The idea is to stabilize things after the fight so that society can return to normal and peaceful living. This aligns with the broader Islamic principles of justice and mercy.

In short, my understanding of this verse is that it guides us to act decisively during unavoidable conflict, treat captives humanely afterward, and work towards peace.

Updated:
We are all discussing the Quran and the rules of warfare, but honestly, lets take a look around us today. The nature of warfare has changed drastically. Advanced nations now use weapons that leave hardly any prisoners, essentially wiping out entire areas, and face-to-face combat is almost obsolete with the use of drones. So, when we view this Quranic verse, it should be seen as a metaphor. Whatever the current rules of warfare are, one must always be mindful of the intent behind 47:4, which is to ensure justice, mercy, and ultimately, the restoration of peace.

Also, in todays time, I dont see a clear party that God is addressing in 47:4. There isnt a "party of God" fighting for divine purposes; instead, most conflicts are driven by other motives.


Question:
How do you take the understanding of the following verses [though again I could not find any one fitting as addresse of this verse in today's time]
Verse 8:60
وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا ٱسۡتَطَعۡتُم مِّن قُوَّةٖ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ ٱلۡخَيۡلِ تُرۡهِبُونَ بِهِۦ عَدُوَّ ٱللَّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمۡ وَءَاخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمۡ لَا تَعۡلَمُونَهُمُ ٱللَّهُ يَعۡلَمُهُمۡۚ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيۡءٖ فِي سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيۡكُمۡ وَأَنتُمۡ لَا تُظۡلَمُونَ

In this verse the word l-khayli translates to horses. So how can this be applied in todays time? So Personally I think verse 47:4, it is a metaphor for fighting and isn't about beheading.
#4
I used the term "principle" to convey my understanding. It does not mean that God explicitly names principles in the Quran. I use this term to describe consistent themes or guidelines I see in the Quran. Just like in my workplace, where we refer to principles, procedures, and policies to describe consistent approaches, I used "principle" here to express a similar idea in human language.

So, when I talked about the Quranic principle regarding testimony, I meant the consistent emphasis in the Quran on the need for direct evidence or witnessing, which I see reflected in various verses.

In the Quran, testimony is closely linked to having direct knowledge or evidence. For example, in (2:282), it is stated:

"O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her."

This verse highlights the importance of having reliable witnesses who can directly observe and testify accurately about financial transactions.

Another relevant verse is (4:135):

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."

This verse stresses the necessity of justice and truthfulness in testimony, implying that testimony should be based on what one has directly witnessed or has solid evidence for.

The principle here is that testimony in the Quran is meant to be truthful and based on direct witnessing or strong evidence. This is why I second  (correct me if I got it wrong about your statement) your understanding of the use of the word "testified" in "The True Al Furqan" as inconsistent when referring to a belief about the nature of Jesus, as it suggests a declaration without direct evidence.

I hope this clarifies my use of the term "Quranic principle."

Added:
However, in matters of faith, "shahada" is an expression of one's belief and conviction in the truths revealed by God. For instance:
"Allah witnesses that there is no deity except Him, and [so do] the angels and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is no deity except Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (Quran 3:18)
In this verse, the term "witness" (shahada) is used to declare the fundamental belief in the oneness of God, which is based on faith and revealed knowledge rather than direct observation.

In essence, while "shahada" in the Quran about faith matters signifies belief in revealed truths, the use of "testified" in "The True Al Furqan" regarding a theological claim about Jesus presents a contradiction with what Quran says about Jesus.

#5
The version of "The True Furqan" available as an Image PDF is difficult to search for specific concepts such as justice or equality to compare with the Quran.

For example, the Quran states:
"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives..." (Quran 4:135). This verse is so profound if you know what I mean.

To make such comparisons, one would need to read the entire "The True Furqan," as it lacks a searchable format for specific keywords like "justice." As I mentioned in a previous post, and which Shukri has kindly pointed out, the Quran's challenge is not solely about its linguistic beauty but also its depth of meaning, consistency, and impact on people. To assess the consistency and depth of "The True Furqan," one would need to read it thoroughly to evaluate whether it meets these criteria/challange of Quran verse 4:82.

As believers, it is our responsibility to reflect on the Quran and ensure we grasp its consistency in all aspects, including grammar, meaning, and scientific facts (our era).

As Jkhan says that The term "testified" (shahada) in the Quran requires direct witnessing or strong evidence, which is not applicable to divine matters like the nature of Jesus. This is inconsistent with the Quranic principle that testimony should be based on direct evidence or witnessing. Hence, this indicates a human-authored text with a conceptual flaw, unlike the divine coherence of the Quran. The verse 75:01 seems to suggest a theological stance that aligns with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, where Jesus is considered part of the Holy Spirit.

If we read the surrounding verses of 4:82, we understand that the context of "they" might refer to the people or hypocrites (munafiqan) mentioned in those verses during the time of revelation. However, in a broader sense applicable to all times, "they" could also refer to anyone who reflects on the Quran—believers and non-believers alike. It serves as an invitation for everyone to ponder deeply and critically about the Quran. The verse suggests that anyone who sincerely reflects on it will not find contradictions, thereby affirming its divine origin.

Certainly, I have many questions about the verses of the Quran, but these questions arise from my desire to understand better, not from  sheer doubt. When I read certain verses, I find comfort knowing that others have had similar queries about divine matters.

For instance, Prophet Ibrahim  asked Allah to show him how He gives life to the dead, and Allah instructed him to gather birds and call them to demonstrate His power (Quran 2:260). Similarly, Prophet Musa asked to see Allah, and Allah revealed Himself by making a mountain crumble (Quran 7:143). Moreover, there is the story of a man who passed by ruins and questioned how Allah would give life to the dead, and Allah caused him to die for a hundred years and then brought him back to life to show His power (Quran 2:259). Should I interpret these verses literally or allegorically? This question is part of the learning process
#6
Quote from: good logic on July 03, 2024, 05:49:13 PMPeace Fusion.
You ask, Quote:

"GL, if you had been present at that time, would you have followed the Prophet's commands, even those not explicitly mentioned in the Quran, understanding that his role as a messenger included guiding and making decisions for the community?"

A true messenger will follow GOD s message and will lead by example. Therefore I know for a fact that the prophet will never give any commands that contradicts GOD s message. So I will be obeying him for sure because it will be obeying GOD first and foremost..
So why would he give any other commands about the religion if it is not in GOD s message,GOD has insisted that the prophet should only follow what was revealed to him from GOD "Ittabii Ma Yuha Ilaila Min Rabbik"

As for leader/politics /every day life ,then he would lead with the right wat_Amruhum Shoora Baynahum"  .i.e He will consult with his team and share the responsibility /tasks choosing the better ideas. I will obey and accept his leadership and will trust him to do his beat.GOD has chosen the best candidate to deliver His message and I will accept it as part of my submission and trust in GOD.

That is why GOD calls men s lies about the prophet "enemies of the prophet" . All the things in Hadiths that contradict GOD s scripture are lies about the prophet. He would never do such a thing.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Thank you brother for your reply.  :handshake:
#7
Peace GL and Mazhar,

Thank you both for sharing your perspectives and it seems never ending heated debate.
It is clear that both of you are deeply committed to understanding and practicing Islam according to the teachings of the Quran, atleast from where I see.

GL, I see the value in your focus on the message of the Quran and the emphasis on monotheism. Indeed, there are verses that highlight the importance of worshiping Allah alone and not associating partners with Him. For example:
"O you who believe, you shall remember God frequently. You shall exalt Him day and night." (33:41-42)
"Muhammad is no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. If he died or was slain, will you then turn back on your heels?" (3:144)
These verses emphasize that our ultimate devotion should be to Allah and His message.

Mazhar, your points about the importance of revering the Prophet Muhammad are also well-founded. The Quran does highlight the significant status of the Prophet Muhammad in several instances:
"And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station." (17:79)
"There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful." (Surah At-Tawbah, 9:128) [ I am sure some of the folks will jump to bash me here but please respect that I consider this verse as part of Quran, only Allah can judge me. We are here to only present our views and not force them upon others.
And We have not sent you,
  • , except as a mercy to the worlds." (Surah Al-Anbiya, 21:107)
"O Prophet, indeed We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And one who invites to Allah, by His permission, and an illuminating lamp." (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:45-46)
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian." (Surah An-Nisa, 4:80)


Both perspectives can be supported by different verses in the Quran, which can indeed be confusing for someone trying to reconcile the two views. The Quran emphasizes both the importance of following the message and respecting the messenger.

A Thoughtful Question for Both of You:
If we consider the time when the Prophet Muhammad was alive, it is clear that obedience to him was paramount. For instance, during historical incidents like the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, companions of the Prophet obeyed his decisions even when they seemed difficult to understand at the time. Allah mentions the pledge under the tree:
"Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you,
  • , under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest." (48:18)
This shows that obedience to the Prophet was part of their faith, even if specific commands were not explicitly mentioned in the Quran.
GL, if you had been present at that time, would you have followed the Prophet's commands, even those not explicitly mentioned in the Quran, understanding that his role as a messenger included guiding and making decisions for the community?

Mazhar, while reverence for the Prophet is essential, we must also be cautious about not elevating him to a level that distracts from absolute praising of Allah alone. The Quran warns against excessiveness in religion:

"Say, 'O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way.'" (5:77)

To further illustrate this point, we can reflect on the incident after the Prophet's death, when Abu Bakr addressed the people. He said, "O people, whoever worshiped Muhammad, let them know that Muhammad is dead, but whoever worships Allah, let them know that Allah is ever-living and never dies." This highlights the importance of focusing on Allah alone.

In conclusion, it is crucial that we continue to seek knowledge and strive for a balanced understanding of our faith. The Quran provides guidance, and our discussions should help us draw closer to the essence of Islam, which is to worship Allah alone while following the teachings and example of the Prophet Muhammad.

May Allah guide us all to the straight path and grant us understanding and wisdom and I meant it to me more than any one on this forum.

With respect


#8
Welcome back bro. I loved the humorous welcome by GL.
Let's "taco" 'bout all the great times ahead. "Olive" us are thrilled to see you again :-)

I joined back in 2014 and I missed a very good friend on this site, his name is Arman and I learned a great deal from him, he just not interested in coming back.

#9
Quote from: shukri on June 30, 2024, 04:38:11 AMI Just gave the quranic verses 2:23-24 and the warning from God
AND It's up to you to interpret it!
No offence.

Thank you.
Thank you for your response Shukri. No offence taken and why should there be any offence when you quote the verses of God from Quran, as it is important for us to approach these discussions with mutual respect and a shared goal of seeking the truth.
#10
Thank you for sharing your perspective including every one. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this respectfully but seems the direction is becoming personal.

I understand that some of you believe the number 19 is a significant sign within the Quran, as highlighted by Rashad Khalifa. However, I would like to address a few points regarding the challenge presented in the Quran and the context in which it is given.

Quranic Challenge:
The verses you mentioned, such as 2:23, indeed challenge people to produce a surah like those in the Quran, emphasizing the unparalleled nature of its content:

Surah Al-Baqarah (2:23-24):
Translation: "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you can never do - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is people and stones, prepared for the disbelievers."
Surah Hud (11:13):

Translation: "Or do they say [about the Prophet Mohammad], 'He invented it?' Say, 'Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.'"
Surah Yunus (10:38):

Translation: "Or do they say [about the Prophet mohammad], 'He invented it?' Say, 'Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.'"

Context of the Challenge:
The challenge is to produce the likes of the Quran in terms of its linguistic, literary, and spiritual content, which encompasses its profound guidance, laws, stories, and prophecies. This challenge highlights the miraculous nature of the Quran as a divine revelation.

Rashad Khalifa and the Number 19:
While the number 19 and its mathematical patterns in the Quran are intriguing, it is essential to separate the appreciation of these patterns from the claims of messengership or divine appointment made God to  Rashad Khalifa. The discovery of patterns does not necessitate accepting someone as a messenger or a divinely appointed messenger.

Misleading Interpretations:

Respectfully, using the challenge of the Quran to imply that those who do not accept Rashad Khalifa's claims are in danger of Hellfire is not constructive. The challenge in the Quran is about the unmatched content of the Quran itself, not about mathematical patterns. It is crucial not to mislead others by conflating the two.

I appreciate the language and the stand that GL has, though he believed in RK as in total (messengership), hence We all can appreciate the Quran's miraculous aspects, including its literary excellence and any numerical patterns, without being compelled to accept every claim associated with them. Let's focus on the core message of the Quran and the importance of understanding it holistically.

Thank you for considering my perspective. I hope we can continue this discussion with mutual respect and a shared goal of seeking the truth.

Thank you