Messages

Peace,

I personally believe that this is the case.  Allah gives us many signs of this.  Look at the creation of man.  The Qur'an illustrates the stages of embryology, yet it is all done by Allahs command of "Be".  Also, look at the creation of our Universe.  Everything is in stages.

Peace

Peace,

I am the only Muslim in my family from a Protestant background.  I am also Korean descent.

Peace

[It shows very clearly that hadith as an authoritative source were rejected right from the start.]

Peace Sunni-Hero, all

Seems like everyone missed Wakas post.  The Hadith's were rejected from the very beginning.  Refer to the quote.

All you need is this article:

http://www.scribd.com/imuslimi/d/52181511-The-Muslim-opposition-to-the-writing-of-hadith-in-early-Islam-by-Michael-Cook

It shows very clearly that hadith as an authoritative source were rejected right from the start.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply has not done the research, or is selective on what they choose to believe. Simple.

Also, if you believe so strongly in Hadiths, why do you not follow the hadith by Sahih Muslim?

Now there is only one hadith left, transmitted from Abu Said al-Khudri which reads "Do not write from me anything except the Quran and whoever has written anything from me other than the Quran should erase it"
[Baghdadi, Taqyid, 29-32; al-Hajjaj, Sahih Muslim, Zuhd, 72]

May God grant us all with knowledge and discernment.

Peace

Peace,

I think we need to define what a slave is according to Islam.  In Islam, I'd rather be a slave compared to other occupations.

Peace

[Would you really ignore what all these people who lived with the prophet sws had to say about what they saw and knew]

Peace sunnah-hero,

2. Because its like that you get infos as well in the court... the witnessess are presented to you and they tell you what they saw and heard... thats the same , its e.g 100 people telling what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears . Would you really ignore what all these people who lived with the prophet sws had to say about what they saw and knew

You might have a case if the hadiths weren't written more than 200 years after the Prophet and the Sahaba.  In other words, these people that you mentioned were long gone when the sayings were heard and written down.  Ever heard of Chinese Whispers?

Peace

Peace Aryan Warrior, redsulpher

Realize that the Trinity the Quran talks about is FAR different from the Trinity we see. The Trinity the Quran talks about has God, Jesus and Mary and describes it where God is considered equal to those other two. That there is pure polytheism, and they worship them as three separate beings. The Trinity we see has God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit in modern times. That has God who is above all and infinite and eternal like we know and Jesus is like a human puppet who is controlled move by move, word by word to transmit where God would speak through that body to the people. Thus that is monotheism still as the Jesus they recognize is just a shell that talks to them while knowing and only worshiping one God in the end. That is how I believe the modern Trinity works at least (though I may be wrong, might wanna double check with a Christian)

Regardless if the Quran was talking about only a super small handful and Jews and Christians who aren't like that, then it would not have mentioned them repeatedly over and over as being monotheists regardless of the fact. Otherwise why not throw in that small sect of that old Egyptian religion that turned monotheist for a while (though it might have been completely dead by then) or frankly any religion that is Pagan might have had people that only believed in one despite what their religion says?

Also note that the Quran never once calls them polytheists or idol-worshippers and only as People of the Book. No such title was branded on them once even if they their beliefs are off as they still worship only one God irregardlessly.

Whether the Trinity in the Qur'an is talking about Father, Son, Holy Ghost or Father, Son, Mary it is all the same.  The Qur'an doesn't explicitly name many things, but based on all the verses in the Qur'an, using ijtihad, we get our answer.  It's like you telling me that it doesn't say that smoking is haram when the Qur'an states that one should not seek his/her own destruction.

Also, the Qur'an doesn't necessarily say that the Trinity is only the Father, Son, Mary version.  It just says stop saying Three in general.

If you referred to the ayat that I posted earlier, the Qur'an explicitly says they have committed shirk.  What's your definition of shirk if it is not polytheism?

@ a muslim

agreed - we are not to create partners with God - from that perspective, one can refer to the Trinity as incorrect, but the Trinity itself is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran.  I try to give Christians some leeway as they always defend the Trinity as a monotheistic concept, but I have never understood how they achieve that.  Perhaps they have lost the true meaning of this doctrine and the Quran is correcting a misunderstanding on the part of Christians regarding Jesus' spiritual status.  While the Quran says that it is incorrect to say that Allah is none but the Messiah, it does not preclude the other way around.  I am not saying that Jesus is Allah, but perhaps something akin to Ibn al-Arabi's concept of the "Perfect man" can be resorted to - the notion that one adopts the attributes of Allah so perfectly from a human perspective that he is "god-like" and thus viewed as one with Him.  The Quran refers to Jesus as "blameless" after all.  But perhaps I am delving too far into Sufi territory here.....
Of course, the notion of Jesus being worshipped is condemned by the Quran (as evidenced by God's questioning of Jesus and Mary on the day of Judgement and Him asking them if they authorized for them to be worshipped, a charge which they deny).

I see what you are trying to say however that is not in line with the Trinitarian creed.  They state that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit.  If one doesn't exist, the other cease to exist.  The Father is a person, the Son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person.  However, they are not three persons but one person.

Peace

[but gives some specifics that help determine which Christians are monotheists.]

Peace MaverickMonotheist, Aryan Warrior

And yet you got this:

"And the Jews said: Ezra is the son of God and the Christians said: The Messiah is the son of God. That is the saying with their mouths. They conform with the sayings of those who were ungrateful before. God took the offensive. How they are misled! They took to themselves their learned Jewish scholars and their monks as lords—other than God—and the Messiah son of Mary. And they were only commanded to worship The One God. There is no god but He! Glory be to Him above the partners they ascribe! " (9:30-31)"


Yet both of them are called the People of the Book. They are both disbelievers no matter what, yet God has deemed them as exceptions in various verses.

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . (2:62)

Remember they wouldn't count as believers cause they don't accept the Quran otherwise they'd have converted therefore they are the exception because in the end they are still monotheists no matter how you look at it.

Peace Aryan Warrior, amuslim,

The beauty of the Quran is that it does not generalize for all Christians and Jews, but gives some specifics that help determine which Christians are monotheists.  In terms of the phrase "son of God", you probably know that this is a Semitic idiom for a righteous person.  There is a difference between a Christian who refers to Jesus as the son of God (in other words, the most righteous person to have lived), and understands it in its original sense.  Then there is the Christian that refers to Jesus as the son of God, and is either ignorant or dismissive of the original meaning.  Such a Christian would probably have no problem WORSHIPPING Jesus as the son of God (referencing your quotation of 9:30-31).  In such a case, it would be difficult to call such a Christian a monotheist, but as always God knows best. 

I think a lot goes into a person refusing to accept the message of the Quran, particularly for Christians in the West who would otherwise identify with its message.  I personally think that a Christian or Jew who does not worship anyone other than God, and does not accept the word of their pastor/priest/rabbi as infallible (i.e. papal infallibility, etc) is probably ok. 

Peace,
Joel

Refer to what Maverick stated. 

If you want to abrogate parts of the Qur'an, like the Sunnis do, then that is your business.  All I know is that God says that Trinitarians (ie. Christians that say Jesus is God, not Unitarians) are destined for the hellfire.  Does this bother you?  If any person that claims himself/herself a Muslim and worships Muhammad as God (like the Trinitarians), there abode is the same place. 

God says that he will forgive anything but shirk.  There's no way around it. 

God knows best.
Peace

Peace Aryan Warrior,

Though i've seen them make it seem like Jesus is more a puppet or avatar of God, which means in other words he is completely controlled and God speaks through him and such and thus supposedly what makes him God, but not actually The infinte and eternal God that all know and they know. Thus "The Father" is still higher for them and Jesus is just a puppet.

That is what I always seem to see, but  I don't know I may be wrong.

Regardless, the good thing is that Unitarianism seems to be on a rise ^_^

Again:

5:72
لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ
Indeed, the disbelievers (kafara) are those that say: "Allah is the Messiah, Son of Mary"

This comes out of their mouths.  Their missionaries preach this.  I don't see why people want to try and work around it and say, "Well they really don't believe it in this way" or "The Qur'an doesn't specifically speak against Trinity."  Why do we need to make the Deen of God palatable to everyone.  It is crystal clear that their belief is only destined to Hellfire.  The verse continues:

إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِالْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ
Certainly those who set up partners with Allah, indeed God forbids paradise for them and their abode is the hellfire.

None of this hurts us or God in any way, but we we shouldn't be apologetic about what God says.  I am also hopeful for a rise in Unitarianism, that brings them closer to Submission and away from the polytheists.

Peace 

Peace,

I am waiting too

Peace

Peace redsulphur,

"Student of Allah" is correct - the meaning of kafir includes the concept of concealment as this is implicit in the literal meaning of the Arabic word - a farmer who buries seeds in the earth is a type of kafir.  In the context of the Quran, the term is used with reference to pagans who have heard the truth but deny it - not with reference to any monotheistic tradition.

Various "scholars" who deliberately hide the words of the Quran from the people can be referred to as kafirs in my view.  They knew the truth of what the Quran actually says on an issue, but deliberately conceal them.

The Quran does not condemn the Trinity - it condemns the notion of referring to God as "the third of the three".  No articulation of the Trinity says that.  The Quran does not even condemn the notion of saying God is "one of the three".   Also, the Quran condemns the notion of referring to God as ONLY the Messiah (Jesus) - no Christian says that either.

The Qur'an doesn't condemn creating partners with God?

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ

The "pagans" of Arabia believed in Allah.  They ascribed daughters to him.  How is this any different than what Trinitarians do?  If you look at it in certain ways, what the Trinitarians do is far worse!

Peace