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Topics - Anoushirvan

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According to Islamic tradition, khalif Umar ibn Khattab decided around 638 (or 637) CE to date his letters, taking year 622 as year 1, which became year of reference of the hijri calendar.
Use of a purely lunar calendar is attributed to Qur'an.

According to Islamic tradition, before Islam, arabic calendar was luni-solar : months were spotted by the new moons.
However, with a lunar year of 12 moons, we have at the end a shift of 11 days ahead of the solar year.
This poses a problem for many events, in particular for the dates of the seeds or the harvests.
An approximate mean used by many people in the past to adjust both was to use an embolismic calendar : at the end of the third year, a new intercalar lunar month is added, making this year 13 lunar months instead of 12.

According to Islamic tradition, this function of determining when to add the intercalary month was devolved to a man whose title was kalammas.

There was in arabic calendar four sacred months during which fights and razzias were strictly forbidden: Muharram (1st), Rajab (7th), Dhu al-Qida (11th), Dhu al-Hijja (12th). So in general, there are 3 consecutive months, two at the end of the year, plus the first of the next year.
When there is an embolismic year, normally, the intercalar month gets into Dhu al-Hijja and Muharram, forming four consecutive months of truce.
This would have been very long because the tribes couldn't start razzias during this period.
Temptation would have been high for the kalammas to report the intercalar month to another time.

Qur'an in Surah 9 strongly criticizes his adversaries at that time for hacking the calendar and the intercalar month, and creating confusions about the sacred months. Qur'an asserts that the count of months in a year is twelve.

An extensive study of the pre-islamic calendar (in French), based on islamic historiography, was performed in the 19th CE by M.C Perceval in'islamisme%20perceval&f=false

Now, we have some papyri and inscriptions from the 7th century, with dual dating, one in assumed hijri calendar, the other one in another calendar, coptic or julian.

Here are the links to these documents:
1) PERF558 :
2) Inscription of Hammat Gader :
3) P. Colt. No. 60 :

Those documents are dual-dated. There are others, which I plan to discuss later.
Of course, when there are two dates, one in arabic, the other in greek in those documents, we may assume they give the same day. This is reasonable but this means we exclude other hypotheses. It is possible that this assumption is not true for other documents I plan to discuss later.

Document 1 gives in arabic the date of 1st Jumada al-'Ula of year 22, and in greek, the date in coptic calendar of 30th Pharmouthi of 1st indiction.
To understand how indiction works, please refer to
This site gives a list of years per indiction:

For coptic calendar, please refer to this site:

This link enables to match julian, coptic, and hijri calendars:
It is in French but should not be too complicated to use. Possibly there are others in English.

When I input 1st Jumada al-'Ula in the calendar computing site (which relies on hijri calendar, i.e. lunar calendar from year 622), it gives the date of 2nd Pharmouthi 359, which doesn't match, although year 359 belongs to indiction 1.

If I input 1st Jumada ath-Thania 22 (the next month), it gives 2 Pachon 359, i.e., two days after 30th Pharmouthi.
Would have the scribe confused Jumada al-'Ula with Jumada ath-Thania and antedated the date in coptic calendar ?

At this point, it is convenient to notice that in the case of a luni-solar or lunar calendar, the 1st of a month is tied to the next day following the observation of a new moon.
Here is a link that gives the list of new moons in the 7th CE:
30th Pharmouthi 359 is 25th April 643 in julian calendar and one notices in the link above that the new moon took place on 24th April 643.

So the scribe didn't make a mistake when he tied the 30th Pharmouthi 359 to the 1st day of a month in the arabic calendar and we have here a first indication that the hijri calendar may not be the right time reference of the arabic calendar in year 643.

Peace free-minders,

Does someone know the difference between two Mā, one with shadda مَّا and one without shadda مَا  ?

Both seem to be used for negation with imperfect verbs.

Example for Mā with shadda.
2.105 مَّا يَوَدُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَلاَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ أَن يُنَزَّلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَاللّهُ يَخْتَصُّ بِرَحْمَتِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ

And by the way, can someone recommand me a good book on classical arabic grammar ?

Archeology & History / Cave Sleepers - Wondering Something
« on: April 16, 2016, 12:58:32 PM »
Peace free-minders,

Discussing with some Christian guy on a French forum, he gave me the example of the Seven Sleepers story (narrated in Surah 18) as why Quran cannot have divine origin.
According to him, this story was invented by Jacob of Serugh (, bishop of Batnan in 6th century CE in one of his homilies.
Since Quran tells it is a true story while it was actually invented by this bishop, then this proves Quran wasn't God's revelation.

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right : all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

But I praised God to give me some hints, and I found this :

18:22   They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog." And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog," guessing at what they do not know. And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog." Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few." So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.

These sentences are nearly word for word that one of the Mahabharata : "The five brothers, with Draupadi forming the sixth, and a dog forming the seventh," see

Mahabharata dates back to 7th century BC at least. It is fascinating to think how far Quran is from Mahabharata, while this sentence has been transmitted almost word for word.

You will notice some elements here:
1) Draupadi is the common wife of the five brothers, who are the Pandavas brothers.
2) Nowhere in Surah 18 it is said that the sleepers were men only.
3) Six persons in Mahabharata is the only count that the Quran doesn't mention. For all mentionned counts in Surah 18, Quran implies people may be wrong
4) The Mahabharata story is not exactly the same story as in Surah 18.
But it is said that the Pandavas brothers and Draupadi hide themselves 12 or 13 years in forest and caves to escape the Kauravas.
5) Pandavas strove for good in God's path.

I am now wondering why Quran points at Mahabharata.
And what is the common point between them ? Was a similar story known to Persians so that it was transmitted to Syriac people then to Arabs ?

Introduce Yourself / Hello !
« on: April 15, 2016, 12:20:06 PM »
Dear all,

This is my first steps in this forum.
My background, I was a Muslim, but not a very practicing one (I never learn how to pray).
I experienced a crisis of faith some years ago where I apostatized and rejected the Quran.

Some months ago, I found this site I could see that most of the horrible things one can traditionnally find in the Quran were the results of the hadiths.
I understood that traditionnal Islam is actually a religion based on Quran interpretation by the hadiths and Sunna.

Although quranism was a kind of revelation for me, it didn't go far enough for me.
Then I discovered extremist quranism which goes far beyond mere quranism.

Extremist quranism considers that most of the understanding we have of the Quran is a result of false teaching of Sunna, Bible, Gospels...and that only Allah must be the Teacher (Rabb) of religion.

For the moment, extremist quranism fits my needs, although it has sometimes provocative ideas.

I have been involved for few months in a French forum : (under the same username, btw).
Although it was most of time interesting to discuss with Christians, I am a bit tired of the dead end of this dialog and I don't learn new things anymore.
Furthermore this forum mostly targets dialogs between traditional Islam and Christianism. Quranism and especially extremist quranism do not fit well.

Finally, and to avoid any further misunderstanding, I don't believe that Issa ben Mariam was Jesus. For the moment (I might change my mind in the future) I believe he was Yeshua bin Nun of the Bible, and also Zarathustra.
I am of the same opinion here than some members of free-minds.

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