Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Topics - mh

Pages: [1] 2
General Issues / Questions / Peace ya all!
« on: July 25, 2004, 08:35:38 PM »
Peace dear sisters and brothers,

I just wanted to say selam to all. Unfortunatley stil can not follow  dicussions regularly. But have noticed that meanwhile some people are 'missing'!

Brother wakas, I have sent some words for root list but not quite sure that they passed towards your!. Pls check that and inform me. I was in big hurry what i sent them so that i could wait to check. I will gw be working on other words and sending you the same.

Brother gazzali, i have recieved your message asking for my view on 'kana min al jini'and have tried to get to that but
couldn't. could you pls provide with a link pls.

once again peace to you all and God blessings,


Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / a note!
« on: March 25, 2004, 10:06:14 PM »
Peace all of you,

this is a note from mh to all especially those who were involved directly in the debaet on salat. I thank sincerely all of them, idolfree, ayman, marie, wakas, ...., and ofer my apologies fro any possible bad temper from my side. there has been no bad intention but it likely the 'heat' of the debate :wink:.

I will be off for sometime as i will have to start seriously to work on projects i have thinking of for a long time, one of which is the root list project with brother wakas. i will be following the discussions from time to time and will gw be sharing my views by updating the existing text of mine on 'as salat'.

my God bless us and hlep us all,

General Issues / Questions / Inheritance!
« on: March 14, 2004, 11:20:23 PM »
peace all,

i would really appreciate if anyone could provide the text or a link to the  argument raised against the 'inconsistency' of the inheritance shares in the Book!

It seems that a solution to the subject is at hands by God's leave.

peace all,

General Issues / Questions / HIJRA. MIGRATION!
« on: February 23, 2004, 11:33:57 AM »
Peace all,

regardless of whether one accepts the celebration of his event or not, i just wanted to know what do you think of this phenomenon. A thought came to my mind today to compile a text on this and thought you may be of help. notice that i am referring to migration as a phenomenon that constitutes part of the human phsycho. the need to move to change places, all those pressures, social, ecconomical, 'spritual, and ...etc. who are those people who choose to migrate and who are those who do not have enough courage and will to move further, who would rather stay.

what do yuo think of this and more...


Job Seekers/Business / Looking for a job!
« on: February 09, 2004, 02:34:25 AM »
Peace you all,

I have the honor to be the first one to use this place :D

I am looking for a job. Please for all details contact me thru my e-mail  

or thru private message on the free minds.


Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / As salat (update)
« on: February 08, 2004, 02:28:29 AM »


Peace to all,
This is a text about the use of the Arabic word SALAT (written slwt), traditionally understood as ‘ritual prayer’ and which I understand to mean the Commitment. I understand the Commitment as the engagement and the service of man as God’s vicegerent. In this sense the Commitment represents the bondage and tie, the true relation of man as God’s vicegerent towards God as His Creator and the Owner of all that in the heavens and on the earth, who set man to be the vicegerent. In this light the commitment is also the following close of the vicegerent to God, His master. This will, GW, be elaborated in this text. I do not consider this to be purely my own work but rather a result of the blessed sharing of knowledge and ideas and thoughts although many of those with whom I have made the exchange may not fully agree to it. We ask God to increase our knowledge. To Him we shall all return.

We have to bear in mind that the teaching of the Book is consistent and has no discrepancies. This is very important as this will help us make the right choice where it may imply two ‘possible’ meanings;- our choice in such a situation will go for the one that goes in line with the essence of the teaching and its consistency.    
What is ‘as salat’?

I have made my choice to start with verses 11:84-87 as I think that the use of the word ‘salat’ is so clear that it leaves no room for any kind of speculations that it could refer to any kind of rituals.  When we take off the veil of prejudice and preconceptions as well as inherited notions, we can then clearly see, GW, what this word (salat) really refers to.
Let us begin.

11:84, “And to the Madyan, (We sent) their brother Shuaib, he said: “O my people! serve God, you have no God other than Him and do not give short measure or weight, I see you in prosperity but I fear for you the chastisement of a day that will compass all around.”
11:85, “And O my people, give just measure and weight and do not withhold from the people the things that are their due and do not go around in the land doing mischief.”
11:86, “That which is left for you by God is better for you if you (but) believed and I am not a watcher over you.”

So as we read from the verses 11:84-86 that the messenger sent from God asked his people to serve God alone and not to give short measure to weight no matter how it seems to cause prosperity. Its final result is terrible, not to withhold from the people the things that are their due, and not to commit evil in the land ending with mischief on it. (see also 7:85-93, 26:176-190, 29:36)

These suggestions, that is, new direction is named ‘salat’, precisely your ‘salat’! in the following 11:87

“O Shuaib, does your ‘salat’ order you that we leave off what our fathers served or that we leave off doing with our property what we like.”  

Please pay a deep attention to this verse. Now, look carefully at this part of the verse;- “does your ‘SALAT’’ order you that we leave off what our fathers SERVED!

To get a better view into this let us put it this way:

Shuaib’s suggestions (SERVE God) = (the same is named)  SALAT = (replacing) what their fathers SERVED.

Keep in mind that the first thing (before getting into details) that Shuaib asks his people to do is: “O my people, SERVE GOD” (11:84).

I think that the above is very obvious from the verses 11:84-87. Another obvious thing is    that, this suggested salat has to do with the property (money).    

This leads us to see that, understanding this word (salat) in 11:87, as a ‘ritual prayer’ would, with no doubt, cause confusion and would make this passage very unclear.

Now, I will move to the other part of this analysis in which we shall gw see a small chapter of the Book where a derivative of the word slw is used. I believe that this small chapter can help a lot in getting a good understanding of the notion slw in the Book. Being a small chapter of only 7 verses makes it easy to follow its context and have a good insight within its meaning. Let us have a look.

107:1, “Have you seen the one who denies the system?”
107:2, “Such is the one who repulses the orphan”
107:3, “And does not encourage the feeding of the indigent.
107:4, “So, woe to almusaleen.”  
107:5, “those who are careless of their salat
107:6, “Those who want to be seen
107:7, “And cut the help for the needy.”

What does the ‘regular prayer’ have to do with the context of this verse?

To answer the above question just put ‘the performers of regular prayer’ for almusaleen, and ‘their regular prayer’ for ‘salatihim’. Does it make any sense?    

Now, let us have a brief analysis of the chapter. You see the first part of the chapter explains the ones who reject and deny God’s system prescribed for mankind. It does not say that those people, the deniers of the system, do not do ritualistic prayer. It describes them as ones who repulse the orphans and does not encourage the feeding of the indigent.
In the second part (from verse 107:4) we see a warning to ‘almusaleen’ who are careless of their salat.  In the context of the chapter, ‘almusaleen’ are supposed to stand opposite to the deniers. We understand also from the chapter that almusaleen is not purely a name or a title. Real ‘almusaleen’ must be aware of their salat.

Again from the context of the verses we understand that as salat stands as opposite to the behaviour of those who reject the system thus, as salat in this context is an equivalent to the system (ad deen).  
So, before running to choose any word to stand and represent the idea the word ‘as salat’ carries in the context of chapter 107, I think we can at least give a brief, definition related to its context here.

Almusaleen should not seek to be seen , and should not cut the help for the needy. This means that their salat means to be engaged to make the help gets to the needy without the intention to be seen.

To this extend, almusaleen should stand opposite to those who deny the system, the ones who repulse the orphans and do not encourage the feeding of indigent, that is, the cutting of aid in general.        

Now, we can say that as salat in this context is the commitment and engagement to aid those who are in need of aid. Almusaleen are the ones who are supposed to carry on the commitment.

The following pair of verses provide a good insight into the the word as salat.

75:31, “So, he did not believed/trusted nor did he salla””
75:32, “But denied and turned away”

Here we have two ideas following each other (believed and salla) in 75:31 which are confronted in the following 75:32 with (but rejected/denied and turned away.). The denting/rejection and turning away stands opposite to the believing/accepting and salla . Here it becomes clear to us that solla is the opposite of the turning away. So, Salla is to follow close. All those ideas presented in these verses are concepts. Turning away (tawalla) is a concept as well as following close.

This turning away is also mentioned in 70:17. It is important to notice that the turning away (as concept) in 70:17 is associated with the collecting of wealth and its misuse. (See also chapter 104)

It is interesting also to see that few verses from 70:17 we have again a description in length to almusaleen as opposite to those under verses from 70:17-21.

In these verses (70:22-34) Almusaleen are described as follows:

70:23, “who are always constant in their salat”.

70:24, “And who set aside part of their wealth.”

70:25, “For the one who asks (for aid) and the denied.”

70:26, “And who believe in the Day of Judgment.”

70:27, “And who are fearful of their Lord’s retribution.”

70:28, “The retribution of their Lord is not to feel secure from.”

70:29, “And who guard their chastity.”

70:30,”Except with their wives or those whom their right hands possess, for then there are not to be blamed.”

70:31, “And whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.”

70:32, “And who are trustworthy and keep their oaths.”

70:33, “And who uphold their testimonies.”

70:34, “And who observe their salat.”

The above is straightforward description (definition) to ‘almusaleen’.

It is obvious from this description that as salat is far wider concept than what is traditionally understood and that it encompasses all the above activities, actions, and relations and almusaleen are the adherers of this concept.

We view all the activities, actions and relations listed in these verses as the Commitment and almusaleen as the committed ones, those who adhere to the commitment.

Please compare the above wider definition of ‘almusaleen’ to the one of the ‘almui’minoon’, (usually translated as the believers) in 23:1-9.

This shows the words ‘al musaleen’ and al ‘muimieen’ are equivalents that encompass a wide concept as we mentioned earlier.      

In the coming part we shall go thru some of the verses where the word as salat, and/or its derivatives are mentioned and try to analysis them.

"Recite what has been revealed to you of the Book and aqimis salat, for the salat restrains/prevents from shameful and evil deeds and keeping God in mind is greater and God knows what you do." 29:45

This verse tells us that ‘as salat’ restrains or prevents from shameful and evil deeds”. If we ponder over this statement, we can see that ‘as salat’ in this context of the sentence refers to an all-time engagement and service based on an accepted attitude and direction of life.

Let us see the above verse (29:45) in the light of the following:

"O you who have believed, follow not Satan’s footsteps; and he who follows Satan`s footsteps (let them know) that he commands shameful and evil deeds and were it not for God’s grace and mercy, He would not have purified any of you but God purifies who wills and God hears and knows everything." 24:21

In verse 29:45 we read about what prevents from shameful and evil deeds (alfahishata wal munkar). In verse 24:21, we read about what leads to doing shameful and evil deeds.

This can be summarized as follows:

Following Satan leads to shameful and evil deeds. (24:21)
Following God closely (being committed) prevents from shameful and evil deeds. 29:45

Following Satan’s footsteps means to work and live upon his orders. To

follow God means to work and live upon His orders.

The above understanding is confirmed in the following verses:

16:90, "Verily, God commands justice, the doing of good (righteousness) and giving to kith and kin, and He forbids shameful and evil deeds and injustice; He instructs you that you may keep (this) in mind."
16:91, "And fulfil the covenant of God when you make the covenant and break not your oaths after you have confirmed them, when you have made God your surety; for God knows all that you do."

See also the following verses in the relation of following God and following the Satan:  

2:168, “O people eat of what is on earth, lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan as he is a manifest enemy to you.”
2:169, “He orders you what is evil and shameful and that you say of God that you know not.”
2:170, “And when it is said to them: “follow what God has been revealed.” They say; “Nay, we shall follow what we inherited from our fathers.” What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?”

Here is another pair of verses to shed more light on the idea behind the term ‘as salat’.

19:59, "But after them followed a posterity who lost ‘as salat’ and followed after lusts, they will surely to face destruction."
19:60, "Except those who turn to God and believe and work righteousness; for these will enter the Garden and will not be wronged in the least."


“But followed after them a posterity that inherited the Book, but they chose the vanities of this world, saying: "we will be forgiven." And if similar vanity came their way they would again seize them. Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they say not about God but the Truth and study what is in the Book? But best for those who fear God is the home of the hereafter. Will you not understand?”  7:169
“And those who uphold the Book and maintain as salat we shall not cause the reward of the righteous to perish.” 7:170

Pay attention to the similarity between these two sets of verses. Let us try to do a kind of comparison here.

In verse 19:59 we read about the following of lusts.(note that following of lusts (shahawat) is actually the following of Satan (3:14, 15:39, 16:63…).

The corresponding idea in 7:169 to ‘following of lusts’ is represented in ‘they chose the vanities of this world’ and their persistence on this: “…and if a similar vanity came their way they would again seize it”.

It is important to notice that these people who chose the vanities of this world actually inherited the Book (7:169). But it is obvious that they did not choose to uphold it, that is, to observe its limits. The next verse (7:170) confirms this as it speaks about those who uphold the Book and maintain as salat (the observation of limits as the service of man, the vicegerent) as opposite to those mentioned in the previous verse (7:169) who, although inherited the Book, they chose the vanities of this world. The other assertion in 29:45 says: “keeping God on mind is greater.”

Keeping God on mind is greater as following close and observing His limits (as means) leads to Keeping God on mind.

Just to remind that the concept and meaning of ‘dhikrul lah(keeping God in mind) is greater than lip service or repeated words. ‘Dhikrul lah’ is a process that keeps going on as long as we live (and so does 'as salat' as engagement and service).
Our engagement and service on earth as vicegerents is the way through which we keep God in mind.  

Now, let us have a look into another verse.

14:40, “O, My lord, make me a maintainer/observer of as salat, and of my off-spring, my Lord and accept my call/prayer.”

Why would Ibraheem ask God to make him maintainer of one single ‘ritual’ leaving other prescribed things such as fasting. Why isn’t it (God make me of those who fast..!).

I think because the verse does not speak of one single ritual leaving other things in the service of God but is actually speaking about the concept and principle (as salat) that is related to all aspects and forms of the Service. I think it is better and far safer to read it as “God make me a maintainer of the Commitment…”

And this one:

24:41, “See you not that all that in the heavens and on the earth celebrates the praises of God, and the birds outspread. Each knows its salat and its praises and God is aware of what they do.”

Each of the God’s creatures in the heavens and on the earth knows its prescribed duties and function (tasbeeh) according to these prescribed duties within God’s creation.

Here we have another set of verses to give more insight to the word ‘salat’:

"Verily, God and His forces (malaika) commit to the announcer/prophet. O you, who have believed, commit to him (saloo aleyhi) and surrender in full measure." 33:56

This is the verse which gives credit, according to the traditional understanding, to the well established concept that we have to do ‘salat’ on the prophet repeating the phrase ‘sala alahu aleyhi wa salam’.
It is obvious that the verse speaks about action and not lip service.  

It says "God and His forces ‘yusaloona alan nabiy’!?" God and his forces do not keep saying: “sala alahu aleyhi wa salam” and ask the believers to do the same. God and His forces support/commit to the prophet as well as to those who believed with him. See the following verse:

"He it is Who commits (yusalee aleykum) to you and His forces in order to bring you out from darknesses into light; and He is full of mercy to the believers." 33:43

And He asked the believers to support the prophet in his mission, that is, to support God,s cause. (33:56)

This is the obvious and logical relation. Check this verse:

"O you who have believed, if you help (the cause of) God, He will help you and plant your feet firmly" 47:7

See also 7:157, 3:81, 9:40, 8:74 and many other verses throughout the Book.

So, ‘aqimu salat’ is to maintain the commitment, that is, follow closely the course and to be its supporter. In other words iqamatu salat represents the engagement of the vicegerent as we mentioned earlier.

Another beautiful verse to ponder upon:

35:18 "Nor can a bearer of a burden bears another`s burden. If one heavily laden should call another to bear his load, not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other) even though he be nearly related. You can warn only those who fear their Lord unseen and maintain as salat and whoever evolves (purifies) himself do so for himself and to God is the return”

Those who choose to maintain the commitment are actually those who fear their Lord unseen and who seek to purify/evolve themselves.

The relation between the Reading (quraan) and as salat:

We know that the Reading is the Book revealed to God`s messenger with the duty to reveal it to people (28:85) as it was not a private communication (6:19).

The fact that this aspect of the Book, that is the Reading is emphasized all over the Book and it is the one, with which, it is most popular makes us think deeply on its significance.

So, having this accent on Reading, repeated to us many times, we can clearly identify it as a book that is to be read on regular basis.

In the following verses we will GW shed more light on this relation between the as salat and the Reading.

17:106, "and (it is) a Reading which we have divided (into parts) that you read it to men at intervals, we have sent it down at stages."

28:85, "Verily He who has ordained/made obliged the Reading on you will return you back to meeting. Say my Lord knows best who brings true guidance and who is manifest error."

27:91, "I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city who has made it forbidden and to Him belongs all things and I have been commanded to be of those who submit. And to rehearse the Reading, and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls and if any astray, say: "I am only a Warner."

7:204, "When the Reading is read listen to it with attention, and hold your peace; that you may receive mercy."
84:21, "And when the Reading is read to them they do not submit/respond"

6:19, "And this Reading has been revealed to me to warn you with it and to whom it may reach.."

41:26, "The unbelievers say: - Do not listen to this Reading and talk at random in the midst (of its reading) that you may gain the upper hand.-"

46:29, " Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns to listen to the Reading and when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, -listen in silence- and when the reading is over  (fa lama qudiya) they returned to their people to warn them."

From all these verses (and many similar ones) we see that the aspect of Reading has been emphasized. This is due to the fact that warning is through reading.

Reading is the main method of its delivery to people. Pay attention to the fact that Reading does not mean purely going through a written text but rather appreciate its lessons and absorbing its morals (and subsequently work upon them). This explains the question in 84:21 (no respond and reaction to the reading as if deaf and blind 25:73). Also notice the remark in 4:102.

We can see from the above verses that the word is about organized session(s) dedicated to Reading God’s Book as means of reminding people and delivering the message to them.

Please pay attention to the words (falama qudiya/when it (the Reading) is over) which puts great accent on an organized session with a beginning and end.

The phrase (lama qudiya/when it is finished/done/over) is mentioned in relation to ‘as salat’ in 4:103, 62:10.

I personally believe that ‘as salat’ in verses 17:78 and 11:114 refers to

the sessions (two) dedicated to Reading as a commitment. These two sessions are mentioned by name, (Dusk session and dawn session (salatul isha salatul fajr).

The best connection between ‘salat’ and Reading is:

“salatu fajri dawn duty/service AND quranul fajri dawn reading

Add to this 17:106 up to 17:110 where we read about having the moderate voice for Reading.

So, these sessions for reading are simply viewed as duty/service at specific times. This does not mean that there are no other duties or services other than them. In other words, the reading is only one aspect/form of as salat which does not exclude other forms of it.  

Mirghani Hamed

Discuss Latest World News / Hutton Inguiry!
« on: February 08, 2004, 02:00:09 AM »
Peace you all,

I find this interesting and good reading for free minders so i wanted to share.


The Guardian, London


Peter Jones

How would the ancient Athenians have handled the Hutton inquiry? They
would not have needed one. Real democracies get to the nub with
indecent haste.

In the first place, the decision to go to war had to be agreed by the
people’s Assembly (all male citizens over 18). It would have been
ferociously debated. That decision made, the Assembly voted on the
leaders they wished to put in charge. The Council, the Assembly’s
steering committee (500 citizens over 30, selected by lot to serve for
a year), then took on the job of ensuring that all the necessary
resources, human and inanimate, were in place and functioning properly
— especially the cavalry and navy. But the Council’s job was for the
most part a matter of checking that everything was in order; the
Assembly took all the major decisions about, e.g., how many ships
should be built a year and who should build them. The same applied to
finance. The Assembly made the decisions about how much money was to be
disbursed to whom and for what purposes — from public works to
festivals to war — and the Council saw that it was done.

But not only did the Assembly make all the crucial decisions; they also
kept an iron grip on those who put them into effect. Once every five
weeks, officials reported to the Assembly, which then voted on their
continuation in office. At the end of their one-year term, officials
were submitted to a review of conduct (euthunai, ‘audit’): financial
records were checked against documents in the archives and charges of
misconduct considered, with punishments ranging from fines through
exile to execution. Further, any citizen could at any stage approach
the Assembly with a complaint or bring an eisangelia (‘impeachment’)
against anyone for offences like treason and deception.

In other words, there would have been no need for a Hutton inquiry.
When the war was over, had Athenians felt they had been deceived, they
would have identified the culprits — in the case of WMD, the
intelligence services — and executed both them and possibly those who
persuaded the Assembly to believe them. Dr Kelly would have been a
hero. Further, the idea of appointing one man to investigate matters
arising would have struck them as an outrageous breach of democratic
responsibility, even more to argue that his report be simply
‘accepted’. So let the impeachments rain down — starting with Lord

Hadith Discussions / history of hadeeth (For Damon)
« on: January 15, 2004, 12:42:22 AM »
peace damon, all

this is a very good breif  text on hadeth by parwez from:

you can find other related stuff there (the other parts fo the same text) as well as good other things (their glossary for example). i hope you will enjoy the reading. Remeber that this is very their very sources!



...However moved we may be, by the uniformity of our religious liturgy, the case with our Hadith somehow, does not seem to hold water. We must not omit the fact that nowhere has Allah held the responsibility of hadith, as it has done in the case of the Holy Quran. That is of utmost significance, since the hadith consists of parables and sayings of Messenger MuhammadPBUH and nothing else, we must consider Muhammad's attitude towards hadith. If Hadith is part of Deen, then the procedures Messenger adopted for Quran are not implemented in the case of hadith. Like having it memorized, then listening to his followers for any errors or that he satisfactorily approved what had been dictated and written, that over and above all, it was in its pure and authentic form. Though the mind questions, if hadith is all that significant, why the Messenger did not take the same measures as he did in the case of Holy Quran? On the contrary, we find in that very hadith, Muhammad PBUH clearly says:

Do not have anything else dictated from me, save the Quran. If anyone of you has written any word other than the Quran, erase it!
We are also told that this was a temporary mandate from the Messenger. That at another time, it is observed, upon the request of Hazrat Abdullah bin OmarR, the Messenger permitted them to write down his sayings. As is noticed, the Messenger only permitted his followers, he did not make it mandatory for them to write, as we find he did, in the compilation of the Holy Quran. Moreover, he did not at anytime, ask as to what they had written or heard or question the verity of their writings. Neither we find MuhammadPBUH adopting measures to safeguard or preserve those hadiths as he had done with Quran. It is usually said and believed that in those days the Arabs had stupendous memory and also those sayings were very dear to the hearts of the disciples. Now the mind again questions, if memory was enough of a viable resource to be depended upon, why then was the need felt to have the Holy Quran dictated and written on paper, then recited again to remove any possibility of errors or mistakes during the process of its dictation. If any disciple of the Messenger had learnt those hadiths or sayings of the Messenger by heart, we still are not in a position to vouch for it. Until and unless those sayings were not verified, and the seal of approval cast on them by the Messenger Muhammad PBUH himself, we cannot depend on them. We also have no knowledge of the Messenger ever giving to the Muslims the Hadith in the form of a book and coming down to us through the generations. We observe the Messenger MuhammadPBUH did not take any of the precautions in the case of hadith, as he did for the Holy Quran.
What we have gathered from the historical resources, is that we do find documents other than the Quran, that were written under the orders of MuhammadPBUH. For example, contracts, treatises and letters that he sent to other tribes. What in this matter, has come to our knowledge and what we have been able to gather, at the time of Messenger's demise, are the following:
* A register containing the list of names of 1500 holy disciples or followers of MuhammadPBUH.
* The letters MuhammadPBUH wrote to various kings and rulers of that age or time.
* Documents of treatise and other obligatory rules.
* Hadiths from Hazrat Abdullah bin OmarR, Hazrat AliR and Hazrat UunsR who wrote them on their own. No one knows if these sayings written down were ever verified by the Messenger himself or not and whether they have come down to us in its original version. We have no knowledge of any collected works or hadith that Messenger himself gave to the Muslims before his departure from this world. We do in fact find in the Hadith of Bukhari, that someone asked Hazrat Ibn e AbbassR as to what MuhammadPBUH had left behind for the Muslims. He said, 'The Messenger left behind nothing, save the Quran.' (Bukhari, Vol. III, Fuzail ul Quran.)
The Deeds of Disciples
As we glance through the names of Islam's historic personalities, we notice that after Muhammad's lifetime, the caliphate period is also worthy of being looked into. In the Musnad of Imam Ahmad we find the disciples saying,
"Whatever utterances we heard from MuhammadPBUH we noted them down in writing. One day it so happened the Messenger appeared and asked us about the subject of our writings. We replied that whatsoever we hear from his Majesty's lips we transform it into writing. To which he said,  
"What! Are you compiling another book along with the book of Allah?"
Meaning in other words that this cannot be made possible. He then insisted and commanded us that we ought to keep Allah's words pure and that we must not amalgamate them with any kind of ambiguities. So we made a bonfire of our notes and parables in an open field." (Quoted from Tudween e Hadith, page 249)
At another instance we find Imam Zuhby mentioning Hazrat Abu BakrR who gathering the disciples of the Messenger, after his passing away said,
'You people have so much self-contradictory gossip about MuhammadPBUH that you squabble among yourselves. The future generations will become more rigid than you all and quarrel more. You must not feign sayings of Holy Messenger that are fallacious. If anyone inquires you can always say that we have the Holy Quran between us. Whatsoever has been granted must be made permissible and whatsoever has been prohibited must be relinquished.' (Quoted in Tazkara tul Hifaaz e Zuhby, page 321)  
Then Imam Zuhby quotes another parable of the Messenger's wife Hazrat AishaR and writes:
"The wife of the Messenger mentions that her father (Hazrat Abu BakrR) had collected the Hadiths of the Messenger which were five hundred in number. She says,
'One night I noticed that my father was restless in his bed and was very perturbed. I asked him if he was in some bodily pain or was this condition due to any bad news that he might have heard? He did not answer my question. In the morning he asked me to bring him the collection of Hadiths and then he made a bonfire of them all." (Quoted in Tudween e Hadith, page 285-88)
As far as Hazrat Omar's caliphate is concerned, Allama Ibne Abdulbur has mentioned him in his famous book Jama e Biyaan ul ilm, wherein he says:
"OmarR wanted to compile the sayings and parables of the Messenger. He asked from the companions of Messenger MuhammadPBUH to grant him a decree, to which they faithfully conceded. Inspite of the companions consent Hazrat OmarR was not convinced. For complete one month Hazrat OmarR performed Istekhara. Then one morning when Allah calmed his body and mind and he was able to concentrate on the issue at hand in serenity, he talked to his people about his decision to compile the hadiths. But then he said I thought about the generations that have passed before us, who wrote books and adhered to those books so strongly that they forgot the Book of Allah. I swear upon Allah, I will not let the word of Allah be amalgamated with other words."(Quoted in Tadween e Hadith, page 394)
This was decided because the Messenger had ordered every companion not to ask him to dictate anything else besides the Quran. Whosoever has written anything else besides Quran must erase it. (Quoted in Sahih Muslim) OmarR did not finish the matter here. He not only prohibited and banned the collection of ahadith, he went a step ahead and as is written in Tubqaat:
"During Hazrat Omar's caliphate the ahadith were in abundance. He made sure by putting the people under oath that whatever hadith the people had in their possession ought to be brought before him. As ordered, the public submitted whatever they possessed. He then ordered to make a public bonfire of those hadiths." (vol.5, page 141)
This was the third incident of igniting the hadith collection. The first ignition took place when the Messenger commanded. The second instance was when Hazrat Abu BakrR did the same with his own collection and the third time Hazrat OmarR took all the collections from the people under oath and publicly ignited them. All this took place in the capital city. As to what happened afterwards we get a glimpse of it in Hafiz Ibne Abdulbur's Jama e Biyaan wherein he states:
"Hazrat Omar ibn KhattaabR first expressed his desire to compile the ahadith, it dawned upon him later that it will not be appropriate. So he sent a circular in the districts and cantonments to destroy whichever hadith anybody was in possession of." (Tadween e Hadith,Vol.1, page 400)

He writes further and gives us a detailed account, of how elaborate and precautionary measures were taken for the compilation of the Holy Quran. If the government wanted, what possibly could have come in the way of adopting the same policy towards the compilation of the Hadith. He states that the government of that time did not adopt the same policy towards the Hadith with a specific purpose. This was the situation at the time of the Messenger and his companions, of hadith.

A. The Messenger ordered his companions not to ask him to dictate anything else besides the Quran.
B. Whatever Hadith collection was present among the companions, it was ordered to be ignited.
C. Hazrat Abu BakrR made a bonfire of his own collection and banned others from quoting any hadith.
D. Hazrat OmarR after giving his best thought for one month, reached the conclusion to ban the compilation and collection of ahadith.
E. Hazrat OmarR also asked to submit all ahadith in possession of the public who were under oath and then ignited them all.
F. He also sent a circular in all cities to destroy any evidence of hadith.
G. This did not happen by chance, according to Maulana Munazar Ahsin Gilani this policy was adopted with a definite purpose in mind.
More Strict Measures:
Day after day Hazrat OmarR became more strict on this issue of transmission of hadith. According to Qaza bin Qa'abR, " When Caliph OmarR sent us to Iraq he emphatically drummed it into our heads, that Iraq was a place where sounds of Quran echo like wild bees and we must exercise extreme precaution as not to distract their minds with all kinds of ahadith." It was asked from Abu HurairaR if during Hazrat Omar's caliphate he ever remembered stating the hadith in the same way as he was doing now. To that he replied, if he had done so Hazrat OmarR would have physically scolded him. It has also come down to us that Hazrat OmarR had imprisoned Hazrat Abdullah bin Ma'soodR, Abu DurdaR and Abu Ma'sood AnsariR for illegally in possession of ahadith. (Quoted in Tazkara tul Hifaz)  
It is quite possible these ahadith may have been weeded out because of ambiguity, although according to the author of this book they are closer to being true, as they were according to the principles of Quran and also parallel to the desire of MuhammadPBUH. We however, are not interested in debating on this point. Even if we do not have the above quoted hadiths, we still are in possession of another historical fact that cannot be denied. We observe that by the end of the caliphate period, there isn't a single copy of Hadith that was compiled and completed under the supervision of any Caliph of that period. From these historical facts it can easily be determined, if those Caliphs or the Holy Messenger had ever considered the hadith to be a part of the Deen of Islam, they would have adopted the same measures as were taken towards the Holy Quran. Hence after the demise of the Messenger no steps were taken towards collection of Hadith.
Hamam Ibne Mamba's Manuscript
What the religious scholars of hadith, after much struggle, have succeeded in discovering, has come down to us under the title of Hamam ibne Mamba's manuscript. This was published by Dr. Hameed ullah several years ago from Hyderabad (India). It is believed that Hamam ibne Mamba was the student of Abu HurairaR who died in hijra 131. In this manuscript there are 138 ahadith in total, which its author states were compiled before his teacher Abu HurairaR. His teacher is believed to have departed from us in hijra 58. By other means we can say that this manuscript was compiled before hijra 58. We also notice that Imam Mamba writes these hadiths before hijra 58 in Medina and is able to obtain only 138 ahadith. Whereas in hijra 300 when Imam BokhariR decides to collect ahadith he gathers six hundred thousand. (Imam HumbalR found 1,000,000 ahadith and Imam Yahya bin MoeenR found 1200,000 hadiths) Another fact we observe that those ahadith that have been confered upon Abu HurairaR amount to thousands, though his student was able to write only 138 ahadith. However, in the first century of the Islamic calendar, the sum total of all individual collection is Imam Mamba's 138 ahadith. There are no other written records of Holy Messenger's gospel belonging to that period of Islamic history.
Imam Zuhry
At the close of hijra100 we notice that Caliph Omar bin Abdul AzizR on his own, had some work done on Hadith. After him was Imam Ibne Shahab ZuhryR who at the order of Caliph Bannu Umayya compiled a concise edition of Hadith and that also according to its author was against his desire. At present we neither have any copy or manuscript of hadith of Hazrat Omar bin Abdul AzizR nor the concise edition of Shahab ZuhryR. Although ahadith confered in their names are mentioned at a later period, when the need was felt to bring into record the historical events of Holy Messenger's life. The material for the historical records was a conglomerate of all that had been coming down to them through the generations. Some writers narrowed their research to only those records that refer to the parables, gospels or sayings of the Messenger MuhammadR. This collection is titled Hadith (the very word hadith means conversations).
The first compilation of Hadith that is present today belongs to Imam Malik (died hijra179) and is called Muta. In it we find three to five hundred various ahadith, it further informs us about the activities of Messenger's companions in Medina. After Imam Malik we find various other scholars venturing on this subject and compiling several different editions of Hadith.
During the Abbasids period we observe spectacular progress in the field of Islamic arts and sciences and along with that the number of hadith compilations also increased. The most famous of all compilations that has come down to us is known as the 'Sahiheen,' these books are authored by Imam BokhariR and Imam MuslimR. Imam BukhariR who died in hijra 256 had made a collection of 600,000 ahadith. After sifting through various ahadith he finally decided to retain 2,630 and produced them in book form under the title of 'Us'hal Kitab baaduz Kitab e Allah' (The most pure book after the book of Allah).
This Hadith is now being pronounced as inseparable part of the Deen of Islam. Six different editions of Hadith are considered to be the most authentic by the Sunniites and are called 'Sahaa Sitaa.' The Shiites have their own collections that are different from Sunniites. Those six editions come under the following titles:
I. Sahih Bukhari
II. Sahih Muslim
III. Trimzi
IV. Abu Dawood
V. Ibne Maja
VI. Nisaayee
The introduction to the authors of the above listed collections is as follows:
* IMAM BUKHARIR: He was born in Bukhari in hijra 256 and some believe the date to be hijra 260 but we all know that he died in Samarkand. It is said that after wandering through different cities and villages he collected close to six hundred hadiths and after sifting through he found 7,300 ahadith that he considered close to being authentic. Some have been repeated in various chapters. If we do not count the repetitions, the total figures we get are 2,630 or 2,762.
* IMAM MUSLIMR: Muslim bin Hajaj belonged to a city in Iran called Nishapur. He was born in hijra 204 and died in hijra 261.
* TRIMZI: Imam Abu Isa Muhammad Trimzi was from the city called Trimz in Iran. He was born in hijra 209 and died in hijra 279.
* ABU DAWOOD: He comes from Seestan in Iran. He was born in hijra 202 and died in hijra 275.
* IBNE MAJA: Abu Abdullah Muhammad bin Zaid ibne Maja came from northern Iran, a city that goes by the name of Kazdin. His year of birth is hijra 209 and he died in hijra 273.
* IMAM NISAAYEE: Imam Abdur Rahman Nisaayee came from a city called Nisa in Iran's eastern province of Khorasan. He died in hijra 303.
After a brief introduction of these religious scholars one can easily infer that (a) they all came from Iran. (b) None of these scholars was from Arab descent. We also notice that none of the Arabs were prepared to do what these scholars have done. (c) All of them were born in the third century. (d) Whatever ahadith were collected, were all hearsay, (e) there were no written records of hadith before their collections.
From these thousands of ahadith that were gathered, they chose some and discarded others. The criterion of selection was their personal judgment. For these gospels, their authors had no decree of any kind from God (revealing to them as to which hadith to choose and which ones to discard). Nor we find they had the consent or approval of the Holy Messenger (proving that the selected ahadith were the true parables or sayings of the Messenger). Again, there were no previous records that they could have borrowed the material for their collections. All the sayings were just word of the mouth they gathered from various cities and villages. After giving their own judgment or approval these religious scholars selected some and discredited others on their own. Hence the denounement of Hadith.
(After having assessed the long chase of the departed Messenger MuhammadPBUH, it appears as though Allah was no more an important Being in the life of Muslims. Which was quite contrary to what Muhammad was trying to teach.)
How can anyone vouch for these kinds of ahadith based on hearsay or prove, that in actuality these were the original words of the Messenger? Keeping in mind that, after two or two and a half centuries, not a single word could be guaranteed that it belonged to the Messenger, or has been conveyed from father to son or teacher to student by memorizing. These were garbled words of previous centuries.
(In as much as I would want to hear the exact words of the last of the Great Messengers; at the same time to accept a version that is not first hand, second hand or even third, forth or fifth hand, does not make any sense at all. On the contrary, we are defeating our very purpose for which the Ahadith were written i.e., to seek the Truth. And by accepting a clone, we are corroding our own system of thought.)
Discredited Ahadith
It would not be futile to know the number of ahadith that have been discredited.
Imam BukhariR repetitions & dishonouring others from 600,000: 2,762
Imam MuslimR after dishonouring from the collection of 300,000: 4,348
Trimzi after dishonouring from the collection of 300,000: 3,115
Abu Dawood after dishonouring from 500,000: 4,800
Ibne Maja after dishonouring from 400,000: 4,000
Nisayee after dishonouring from 1,000,000: 4,321
What comes to mind again, after the sifting was done by the authors of hadith, who can say for sure the authors did not relegate the actual sayings or parables of the Messenger. Many of those ahadith that these authors have included in their collection, also go against the Messenger. This discussion will be taken later on in this book.

General Issues / Questions / Dowery crimes in India!
« on: December 20, 2003, 12:17:47 PM »
Peace all,

i would appreciate if anyone could give me more insight with what is nown the dowery crime in india!  


Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Learning Connection!?
« on: December 20, 2003, 11:40:23 AM »
Real Learning Connection (RLC)! Where did you get that from?

Let us check the answer?

In order to make a link that would support the idea that God and His ‘malaika’ are ‘connecting the learning’, that is, teaching the believers, you provide verse 28:51. Let us read the whole verse:

28:51, “wa laqad was salna lahumul qawla laalahum yatadhakaroon? We have brought them the Word that they may receive admonition.”

I do not want to go into details that may distract from the intention of this post. You say that WE in this verse refer to God and His ‘controllers’ (malaika). I think this is a pure conjecture. If you want to say that all WE’s in the Book speaking about God, refer to God in His malaika, then this is a complete error. When this was discussed a time ago others and myself provided many verses that showed this understanding as error but here I will quote only one verse to destroy this theory.

15:8, “ma nunazila almalaikata ila bil haqi wa makanu idhan munthareem’/ We do not send down the malaika (controllers) except with truth, and then they would have no more delay.
I guess this suffices.

Now in 28:51 it is simply ‘We have brought them…” It does not say, “Me and the controllers  have brought…”.  But you needed to make a link to ‘God and His controllers’ in 33:43, 56 to make a ‘confirmation’ to your take!

Now let us go back to 33:43, 56 and other verses with the very same wordings. Here are the verses you base your ‘learning connection’ on (I put them they way you understand the word ‘salat’):  
33:43, “ He it is who yusalli aleykim (connect the learning on you = teach you) and His malaika, to send you out of darknesses into Light and He is merciful to the believers.”
33:56, “Verily, God and His malaika, yusalloon alan nabiy (connect the learning on the preacher = teach) o you who have believed, saloo alyhi (connect the learning on him= now it becomes learn)
Notice that the verses make no changes in the words except for the person (yusalli, is the verb for the third person singular present, and yusaloon, the third person plural for the same verb). The pronouns remain the very same (aley(kum), aley(hi)). If the relations is changed then at least the pronoun would have changed (like to you and from him…etc). But no such a change is made?

To see that this Book is from the Wise All-knowing, please pay attention to the expression “ inal laha wa malaikatahu/God AND His malaika yusaloon. We will later on get to this GW.

Now, the third verse:

9:84, “And do not you ever tusalli ala ahadin (connect the learning) to/on any of them who dies and do not persist on his grave, they rejected God and His messenger and died as rebellious.”

Here we have the very same verb, in the second person imperative in the negative (do not). We also have the very same pronoun. So, according to you (who do not accept any multi-meaning theory, remember, the symbol ALWAYS refer to the same) the verse MUST read this way:

“And do not connect the learning to any of them (teach) who dies…”.

This is the absurdity you do not want to see so you defend it by saying that some religious leaders!? Orthodox Christians, do this and do that?.

God clearly speaks about the one who dies and this is confirmed in the very verse in the other part that says; “They rejected God and His messenger and died as rebellious”, and it is clear THIS IS DONE TO THEM , the ones who die. It is just manifest that the verb refers to them. There is no any practice going on here. Do we reject the sunni ‘going on practice’ of ritual prayer to invent another ‘going on practice’ of speaking nice words on behalf the dead man!. The only going on practice in the verse is the death

Now for the sake of study the objective study, I will provide the forth verse with the same expression;

9:103, “take from their property an alms and salli aleyhim (connect the elarning on them verily your learning connection’ is security to them and God is all Hearing, All knowing.”

How come, out of a sudden that we have sessions of ‘learning connection when the sadaka is taken?

Your understanding implies that the messenger would start session of ‘learning connection’ whenever some sadakat are collected, as if he was paid alms for the learning connections!? God messengers do not do that? They do not ask for reward.

Now replace this with commit to /support for salli and your commitment/ support for salataka in the verse. Remember the sadaka /alms are for supporting those who needs support among the believing people.

The commitment and support of God (and His malaika) is strongly present in the Book that it is almost impossible to escape the eye of a student. It is one of the principles doctrines in the Book. When God asked the malaika at the very beginning of the discourse of man’s journey, he asked them to do sujood to the one set for vicegerent. The whole scene represents the commitment of the malaika to God to support the vicegerent. As long as we remain in the service of God as vicegerent set by Him the help from Him and His malaika will come forth. (6:34, 22:40, 40:51, 47:7, 8:12, and many others)

This is why i do not see this 'learning connection' to be fitting for as salat. As salat is a concept far deeper that a 'learning connection'. It encompasses wider concept in the system of God.


Pages: [1] 2