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Topics - siki

#1
General Issues / Questions / what is sabath?
December 14, 2008, 12:14:52 AM
I am convinced that "week" is a man made system, and hence saturday never existed during Moses (pbuh)time, so , then what is the correct understanding of sabath?

siki
#2
I posted this in shahada thread , but then thought of starting a new thread, so kindly post your comments here.

63: 1. When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

I have been struggling with the Red part, why does God say that HE knows that YOU are his messenger? why doesn't HE bears witness?

Whereas HE does testify against hypocrites.



siki
#3
Dear All

I intend studying  these  terms , and would appreciate if you join me in sorting out the exact quranic meanings of these titles, and their delibrate usage at different places in Quran. The governing criteria being " The quran explains itself "

I think Samia can lead us to a good start, or may be anyone with some good ideas can take the lead.

peace

siki
#4

Reference, my lost post on topic , "problems with the reformist translation"

Brother Edip , kashaad, and any one else interested, lets have a detailed dialogue/debate, and sort out this important topic.

(Edip!  I personally request you to spare some time and help us reach some logical conclusion regarding this issue)

siki

#5
5-6  O you who believe, if you rise to attend the assembly, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe you heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are filthy, then become clean; and if you are ill or traveling or you have excreted, or you have sexually touched the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.


what i get out of this is,

1.  4 step wadu every time before salat  (even if one is clean)

2. And if you are unclean, then purify yourself.  what is this unclean ? how to purify one self ? and with what? is the cleaning only required for the relevent parts? or is it pointing towards bathing?

3. If one is clean and does not find water, then what?  probably salat allowed without wadu?

4. If one does not find water and he/she is been through the above mentioned 4 situations then wipe yourself with clean soil.

5. Does uncleanliness consist of only above mentioned 4 situations?

Now lets combine 4-43 with the above verse.

4-43 O you who believe, do not come near the assembly while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except for travellers,(Abrii Sabeelin) until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling or one of you has excretion or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water: then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.


6. NO salat till one cleans himself by a bath , so the purification in 5-6 is being clarified here by the word Ghusaloo, which is bathing.

7. Here Abrii sabeelin stays an exception to this rule of bathing , he can slat if he is unclean.

8. Who is this , or what is meant by Abrii Sabeelin?

9. He is understood to be a travelling person, but if he is so then why in next clause travelling (Saafariin) is being mentioned along the rest of three categories? (ill, touched women and been to toilet)

10. If we see the Arabic of the two verses , it is word by word same , the only difference being , ILLA Abrii Sabeelin.(Arabic verses are attached for easy viewing)


Your comments please.

siki
#6
Hi

A few nights ago, i saw a strange dream, let me share it with you.

I am passing by an empty suburban road at night, and i find a Man lying on the road  going through the symptoms of a severe heart attack and dieing. when i stroll by , it is inspired that he is Mohammad.

Initially, i ignore, and move on with a thought that he is 63 years old and it is his time to die, and hence i should not interfere with the Devinne design. But, then a thought flashes/is inspired,              "OK,  " he is dieing, and would die eventually/anyway , but i must do my duty as a human to make an effort to save him".

So,    i turn back and start a C.P.R. on him.  My efforts are very unprofessional/week,  and hence are not making any difference in his condition, but at the end i see some improvement.

I really don't see him coming alive/recovering, but i see my self walking off that place with the following thought,

Thanks God that i did my effort on him, because as it turned out , it was not his time to die , i miscalculated his age to be 63 , whereas he was still in his 40's ,  "Thanks God that i managed to save him".

siki
#7

peace

Does any one has a clue , as to why was Quran not compiled, in order of revelations?

Does any one has a clue, regarding the mysterious initials?

Does any one has a clue, as to why there is no un numbered bismillah in the start of chapter 9 ?  if all the bismillahs except the first one were later editions, why was sura 9 exempted ?

Does any one has a clue, as to how is the Quran a miracle, and how Almighty preserved it?  that No false hood can enter it?

Does any one has a clue, regarding the statement of God when he says that if all the Jinns and humans band together , still they can't produce a single chapter/ayat?

siki

#8
Quote from: Samia on June 10, 2007, 05:56:13 AM
Salaam hajirfm

Saving yourself from hellfire does not guarantee you paradise.

interesting.     samia !  can u elaborate ?      please

siki
#9
HI

      :o  :o  :o Did you hear !  Pakistan's national assembly has passed a bill (forwarded by bearded mullahs) recommending death penalty for an Apostate?  He is to be terminated if he does not convert back , and if she is a women, she rots in jail for life or till she converts back as Muslim. :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :elektro: :elektro:

peace
siki
#10

33-50

O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her -- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Permission to wed first cousins has always intrigued me, as it has been proved beyond doubt that in such a scenario 3rd or 4th generation starts to produce crippled offsprings.

Christians think that it is incestuous to marry a first cousin, and their understanding  has to have some logical religious basis.

The above ayah is allowing cousin marriage,  why?    why did God had to send a revelation like this ? probably people in Mohammad's time did not marry first cousins.


let's  read the verse carefully . Is it a one time permission? only for that time ? for the immigrated cousins ? because the believers were a short family?

opinions required


Thanks

peace

siki
#11
Dear all

Quran describes different kind of women with various titles, like Nisa,  that means women just any woman in the world , it calls certain women as Mominat? they are All  believing women. Then there are the women who are followers of previous scriptures and quran calls them so in 5-5, They do not fall in to the category of believing women, however quran allows to marry Mohsinnat out of such women. The next category is Mushrikat, these are the women who are neither believing nor the women of the followers of previous scripture but are off kafiroon,

The next is a category known as Ma malakat emnakum, the women belonging to this sub set of Nisa are your slave women (this I have and am explaining in the other thread)

So for every thing is clear and makes sense but then there is a certain subset of the Nisa which God calls by a term MOHSANAT? Here everything starts to go wrong, what is the precise definition for this subset?
No translator that I have come across , has translated this word in one fix meanings , he changes the translation of this word, depending upon what he thinks and understand in context to a certain meaning of an ayah. 

Listed are the different meanings,  that  different translators have alloted to the Arabic expression" MOHSANAT?

Married women, UN married women ,chaste women independent women, free believing women, engaged women. Protected women, self protected women, parent protected women, the women who flee their disbelieving husbands, , and there are many more descriptions.
All these descriptions are not accurate, and some contradict each other, the major contradiction being in 4-24 and 4-25,

I shall request the readers to verify what I am going to explain (not with the translators perceived meaning but with the original Arabic text) and  is very important as I would reassert that NO TRANSLATOR HAS USED A CONSISTENT UNDERSTSNDING IN ALL THE RELEVENT AYAS WHERE THE WORD MOHSANNAT IS USED    Especially in 4-24 and 4-25 where it is 180 degrees opposite,

During my study, I got stuck at this place and reached a conclusion that there was got to be something wrong with everybody?s understanding of this word,

I took up this challenge to resolve the issue, and started digging , I checked every possible translation , yet no joy , I went deep into roots and checked all the possible occurrences of this word in quran  the answer was still CONTRADICTION,CONTRADICTION. I tried to satisfy my self with flimsy explanations but then God?s assertion that IN IT YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY CONTRADICTION, THIS IS COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED. And hence  kept working on

I worked for hours, days, nights, did every possible search for four days and yet I could not find a satisfying answer ANYWHERE

Finally I wrote the relevant verses together(Arabic) and started to ponder over them , after a lot of pondering and brain storming , there was finally a flash in my mind ,and I could comprehend what God meant by this term Mohsanat.
When I put my new understanding in all the ayahs, IT FIT EVERY WHERE perfectly and precisely with ONE CONSISTENT MEANING HAVIHNG NO CONTRADICTION ANY WHERE

Let's find out how?

;God starts stating the prohibited women from 4-22 and marry not the women whom your fathers married, except which has already passed, this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way,
Then he goes on listing more out of women( Nisa) who are prohibited and lists 13 more in 4-23,, he pauses and then continues to add another category to this list as MOHSANNAT in next ayah(4-24) with the exception of MA MALAKAT EMNAKUM, (Please read the Arabic here and compare)
This is the place where we have to be very careful and diligent in understanding what God means in these ayahs , Any mistake here(which almost every body has made) of translating it as married women , then right in the next verse a big contradiction is staring at our face


Let?s translate this SUBSET OF NISA ?Mohsannat? as every/any women who do not belong to the prohibited list, is chaste, eligible as HALLAL (permitted), and see what happens,     lets see



"HARAM are the women,,,,so and so? (14 different,) and also(forbidden to have a sexual relation) the rest MOHSANNAT(HALLAL)  until and unless you seek them in an honest commitment with your money (dowers, Ajoorhinna),some kind of detailed contract for which DOWER IS A NECESSITY 
Here God keeps MA MALAKAT AN EXCEPTION,  why? And if you ponder over it a little and take them to be your Ma Malkat as female slaves ,they stay Halal for you without fulfilling the above mentioned condition, which is seeking them through a legal bond resulting into paying of dower OJOORIHINNA



Let me reword it once again if you have not been able to comprehend,



,,,,,such and such women are prohibited(to have sexual contact) and ?.also the Mohsinnats(the allowed ones) with the exception of MME. Until you seek them(allowed ones) in some kind of regulated contract which require their dowers to be paid before establishing intimate , sexual relation ship
MME stay as an exception to this rule (of legal contract and paying dower.)and sexul contact is permitted




In next ayah 4-25 It is further elaborated by an advice that if you cannot afford to get a mohsinnat of the believing category into a wed lock then marry a young female(Fatayat) out of Ma malakat emnakum of believing category with the permission of their Masters(ehlehunna) by properly getting them into wed lock and by paying their dowers and this is better than having illicit sex and falling into evil, if these females become guilty of lewedness , their punishment is half than rest of the Mohsinnat category.

Some  may ask a question here that these females are allowed to have a sexual relationship anyway , then why you are being asked to marry them? it is becasue They are Ma malakat emnahum of  "SOMEBODY" not yours. and you need his masters permission. in another ayat Ehlehunna , the Masters are being advised that in any such situation it is asked of you to let go of these and The most Merciful would apriciate that. This all makes sense to me . I don?t know weather I have been able to make you understand, or not ? The post has become  very lengthy and hence I would not like to continue with  the rest of the verses mentioning Mohsinnat. The reader is requested to independently verify by using this expression in rest of the verses and find for himself/herself (I have done so) I assure you that every thing will fall in place, and would make sense ,(mohsinnat, ma malakat emnakum) , but if still there is some confusion ,we can thrash it out in either of the threads.

Wassallam
sikandar
#12


There are two articles posted on Free-minds by brother Ayman regarding Ma malakat emnakum, you may read them here,

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htm
  http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm

Quran describes  a certain category of people consistently  with a the term" MA MALAKAT EMNAKUM," which literally means WHAT YOUR RIGHT HAND POSSES, 

Conventional understanding (regarding these people )has always been that they are SLAVES  however Brother ayman says that these people are not slaves, but the ones whom you posses with an oath(i do not understand this oath)

He goes on to make following points

These are females (only).

He thinks that they cannot be  servants  as  different quranic verses use the word IBAD  for the servants

He says that they cannot be war captives as quran uses ASRA  for war captives,

He tries to fit  his understanding of these people in the verses, where ever this term is used, and  there it gets all jumbled up and it does not make sense in the verses, and contradictions start to creep up, (you may like to read the articles and make up your own mind)

I did a research on all the relevent verses and have  come to the following understanding.

Ma malakat emnakum are ,  Slaves.
Visualize the term   WHAT YOUR RIGHT HAND POSSES"   these are the people you posses , own , upon whom you have complete control, you are their Master in every way and quran  AUTHORIZES SEX WITH THE FEMALE SLAVES WITH OR WITHOUT LEGAL WEDLOCK


TO startwith---- 70-29,30 says very clearly...
  And those who guard their Chastity,,, except with their wives(Zoj) and those whom their right hands posses(MME), for thus they are not blameworthy


The verses are self explanatory , God is authorizing a relationship(sexual) what you have with your wives , with MME as well

Brother ayman says that they are only females
i say NO they consist of all kind of people . males females all ages , to prove my point

3-55 It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves(ma malakat emnahunna). O women! Keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things.

Here women are being told  that they may relax  in the presence of certain category of people,  now note that if MME were only females there was no need to mention their name separately because they would have been the part of THEIR WOMEN(NISAHUNNA)

Brother Ayman says that they cannot be servants as quran uses ibad for servants

I do agree with him , they are not ibad (servants) they are slaves who are not servants , servants are not slaves , dont we have servants who work for us for certain wages and under certain conditions but then these servants are free they may cease to be servants any time they want, and leave, but slaves,,,, dont we know what slaves are/were?

Brother ayman says that these people can not be war captives as quran uses the term Asra" for war captives

i agree ,  for war captives the quran uses the term Asra"  but we must understand that  war captives , when officially allotted , become 'MME" and not all war captives become MME , some are freed , returned or exchanged .

I shall inshallah analyse the verses where  this term is used , tomorrow in my next post,


peace

sikandar

#13
Marriage & Divorce / "MUTTA"(Temporary marriage)
March 01, 2007, 03:24:10 AM
PM 4-24And the already married from the women, except those who become widowed; God's scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

sher ali 4-24 And forbidden to you are married women, except such as your right hands possess. This has Allah enjoined on you. And allowed to you are those beyond that, that you may seek them by means of your property, marrying them properly and not committing fornication. And for the benefit you receive from them, give them their dowries, as fixed, and there is no blame on you what you do by mutual agreement after the fixing of the dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

I went through polygamy threads on brother Tanveer's recommendation and i have come to this horrible conclusion,  The above mentioned ayah is pointing toward MUTA, friends! the shias could be right on this issue.
siki
#14
Peace All.

I recently went through the  titled thread on warner's recommendation because Abraham's (so called satanic) dream has been troubling my mind since long, here are my thoughts.


Abraham sees a dream in which he finds himself slaughtering/sacrificing his son.

As most of the dreams are encrypted ,so actually what God meant by this dream for Abraham was to commit /give away/ dedicate his son in the way of Allah for propagating the Message.

God never meant this dream to be literally interpreted

Abraham ,who was a dedicated servant of God (but probably was not an expert in dream interpretation), took it literally and told his son about it.

The son accepted and submitted.

and when they were about to perform the misunderstood deed,,,,,,

God saw their erred interpretation and absolute devotion,so he ransomed it with some other kind of "Sadqa" , preserved their story , chose them as "Nabieen" to carry out a very difficult task, and bestowed upon them the highest rank.


does it solve the paradox?

peace
sikandar
#15
why Quran wasn't compiled in the same sequence  which it was revealed? who authored the present order and  where did he get his instructions from? could somebody enlighten me on the subject ,or refer me to an old thread?
sikandar