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Topics - mquran

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TRASH / Re: 3 year research ,why isn't The Islam Working?
« on: July 28, 2006, 06:05:18 AM »
Yes I agree. And we should start by cleaning our own doorsteps. Like when we promise to be responsible and to provide explanations after people have bothered to explain, we dont just go to Asda's and get lost for 2 months....


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Dear Believers in Al-Quraan (AQ)

I have refrained from posting in FM for the last month or so although I have kept up-to-date with the topics being discussed. This hiatus has given me an opportunity to reevaluate Free-Minds and thus offer my humble opinions as to how I believe Free-Minds should be.

Free-Minds is the only forum on internet which does not presuppose that people who discuss AQ are automatically part of what is known in the world as 'the muslims'. This uniqueness is not iconic but serves as a platform from which we can launch into the deepest recesses of al-quraan. I cherish that platform and I hope you do as well

However, as Allah has promised, al-baathil/falsehood will gather like scum before being washed away by the ever-flowing al-haqq (13/17) and so it is the case with every human situation including forum which has become infested with certain individuals who do not or choose not to understand what this forum is about.

As Layth has defined Free-Minds as 'has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone..' and that this is 'is fully outlined in the final Book of God (The Quran) which was revealed centuries ago...'

This implies that al-quraan has to be treated in the most reverent manner in this forum. It is up to the moderators to enforce this but - and I address this to people who believe in al-quraan as it should be believed in (henceforth known as 'believers')- it is up to us uphold solidarity and disallow people who treat al-quraan as a jest to gain any footing and continue their campaign of diversion.

Please note : This is NOT a suggestion to stop stop allowing criticisms of AQ. Criticisms of AQ can help us to see just how invulnerable AQ is. Rather, this is a suggestion to insert fairness into a discussion. I have noticed that under the guise of freedom, much disparagement has been hurled at AQ. When the disparagement was challenged, we're either stonewalled or maligned.  We believers , including the owner and moderators themselves have been made the victims in a domain which swears to uphold God's book.

The problem? We refuse to judge by al-quraan. We have chucked away the shackles of traditionalism but have tacitly imported the shackles of modernism. We are told that AQ proposes laws which are barbaric and out-of-date and yet we still call people who say this as 'brother' or 'sister'. Is this right?

AQ:
Have you not seen those who claim to have believed in what was revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you? They wish to refer legislation to Taghut, while they were commanded to reject it; and Satan wishes to lead them far astray. (4/60)

Allah is clearly telling us what these critics are all about. If you do not wish to refer to Allah, by definition you wish to refer to at-taghuut (authority figures who TRANSGRESS) and yet these people are openly telling the believers to do so. AQ tells us that this is shaitaan's wish.

If we need more proof, we are told by some of these people that their indulgence in alcohol is OK and that they find triumph from influencing people to consume alcohol. Alcohol, part of al-khamr or intoxicants is the work of ASH-SHAITAAN and we are to steer clear away from it (5/90-91). If anyone disagrees with AQ, fine but should believers be made to listen to their satanic discourses in the believer's own area?

What happens when we do not judge according to Allah's will? We become fasiqeen (5/47) and will any be destroyed EXCEPT the fasiqeen (46/35)

I have chosen to be inactive for the simple reason that I feel my responses will be obfuscated by their volume of non-believers in this forum. Until we the believers take charge and say,  this is a QURANIC forum and if you want to discuss, discuss under Quran's rules, no progress shall be made. Do not be afraid to label people who advocated kufr as they should be labelled and treat them as they choose to be treated.
Do not let free-minds become TYRANNICAL-minds.

Wasalam.

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Salaamun alaikum Layth and Mods,

As per rule 2 : Please note that this forum dedicated to study of God`s words in the Scripture (Quran) and the glorification of His name. Mocking the words of God, or choosing to ignore clear verses when presented as evidence, or not being able to back-up claims with specifics from the Scripture will all result in deletion of post and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

Danish:Ditto. The Quran does contain abundance of errs and I shall prove it one by one by moderated debates, else children come barging in.

On top of all this mish mash, people have become blinded to stretch and compare a man-made written book

I shall try to refrain from exposing myself in cataclysmic way. I hope to continue and discuss matters of concerns as we move along.  (in other words, he will NOT debate the matter).

I ask you all to please communicate with this person as he is continually interrupting productive discussion by his constant insults onto al-quraan. Challenges to debate his views have been met with him turning his back. I am MOST WILLING to debate this individual and volunteer to leave the forum if my conduct is deemed to have violated the rules during the debate. Therefore, this individual has NO EXCUSE not to accept the challenge.

Awaiting your response.

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Quranic Divinity / To Enquirer : Between Text and Interpretation
« on: May 20, 2006, 12:56:42 PM »
Salaamun alaikum,

Enquirer, in order to have a meaningful dialog with you which you are very capable of, I've noticed that we need to overcome the eponymous hurdle.

So tell us:

Since al-quraan is not an entity and people are using it for their views, can they ever get beyond 'their opinion of what it says' ? If not, how are they to have a dialog with you?

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Salaamun alaikum,

Ichepren, my apologies for the delayed response but I was only shown your response this morning:



Quote
1. If you cannot answer the questions that I have listed in a way so as to make it certain when ex. ramadan is during the year, then how do you apply the quran's demands? The fact that you cannot answer any one of those questions is evidence enough that there is a problem.

The problem with your question is, you're unable to verify whether my inferred meaning is correct or otherwise. This is because the validity of your question is false.

Let us recap your position:

The Quran is irrelevant because we cannot reach an agreement as to the details of its message.

As per the above statement, I ask you:

Who is 'we' ? I don't know you let alone your credentials and vice-versa. Very few people know others in this forum in real life. Therefore, the 'we' in your proposition is very loose term indeed.

 

Quote
2. If a book cannot be understood then it cannot be applied, regardless of the insistence on obedience. I think everyone here would like to be obedient to God, but if we cannot be certain as to what things mean then obediece is moot


Cannot be understood in absolute terms? Or just cannot be understood by yourself and those you consider part of the 'we' which you self-defined.


Quote
3. You are right that separating laws and guidance is an illusion since part of the guidance are the laws. But that has never been my point. My point is that the Quran's guidance can be given irrespective of those laws, and perhaps the laws were only supposed to be followed by the people to whom the Quran was given b/c it was applicable to them and they could understand it.


Kindly provide evidence from al-quraan for this, the Quran's guidance can be given irrespective of laws.


Quote
4. I am not saying that just b/c we don't agree on a topic that the Quran is wrong. I am saying that there is something disturbing to me about a book that claims to be clear but nobody can understand and thousands of sincere people have tried to understand. I am just pointing out the problem.

Once again, who is 'everybody' relative to the 'nobody can understand it'. You're pointing out a problem, sure, but is *a* problem or *your* problem?


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5. Generally, for everyone here who has a stance on what the Quran means by something, I think it might be  better to go at the questions from a position of "what it isn't" rather than trying to find one answer. The Arabic of the Quraish is not something that we cna easily trace back and know for definite what a term might have meant to them.


Really? Have you tried? Perhaps you can demonstrate what you have discovered?

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6. I also think that there is a fear of Quranic interpretation...sometimes we fear what a term might actually mean. Ex. what if those who their oaths possess are slaves and men could sleep with their slaves...what would that say about the Quran, our faith and God? I think this line of thinking infuses much discussion in this forum, regardless of whether we are talking about salat, fasting, hajj, the house, virgin births...everything weighs down on our conception of God and the Quran.


It's very nice of you to speak for 'us' but would you mind not delving into the subjective? I have no fear of what al-quraan means because I trust it. If you don't, do speak for yourself and not others. It's your right to reject.


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7. OK, a last point is that I am truly not saying that the Quran is irrelevant. It still moves me whenever I read it, but I also am confounded by verses that just don't seem to be applicable and after years of study and worry, I am sure that I am not the only one who would like an answer to some hot button questions.

Your personal proclivities is no business of mine. Lets stick to the discussion, shall we?

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Key : The Camp Against Al-Quraan's Divinity : (A)
        The Camp Supporting Al-Quraan's Divinity (P)   
This is a formal challenge to everyone here who reject the divinity of Al-Quraan to a moderated debate as per the moderated debate suggestion in the other thread especially to the following individuals:
1. Enquirer
2. Danish
3. Lote-Tree

The format of the debate - which I am prepared to negotiate on- is tentatively as follows:
1. A will forward an argument supporting it's cause, perhaps a contradiction

2. B will reply or seek clarification and the moderator in question will see if the response or clarification will meet A's aforementioned argument.

3. B will then ask A a question vis-a-vis the nature or basis of his argument.

4. A will respond and moderators will determine if the answer has been answered.

This will continue until the argument is satisfactorily treated.

My suggestion for moderator : Layth or Zenje.

Awaiting your responses. Let us now see the substance of your positions.

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Salaamun alaikum,

Key : The Camp Against Al-Quraan's Divinity : (A)
        The Camp Supporting Al-Quraan's Divinity (P)   
This is a formal challenge to everyone here who reject the divinity of Al-Quraan to a moderated debate as per the moderated debate suggestion in the other thread especially to the following individuals:
1. Enquirer
2. Danish
3. Lote-Tree

The format of the debate - which I am prepared to negotiate on- is tentatively as follows:
1. A will forward an argument supporting it's cause, perhaps a contradiction

2. B will reply or seek clarification and the moderator in question will see if the response or clarification will meet A's aforementioned argument.

3. B will then ask A a question vis-a-vis the nature or basis of his argument.

4. A will respond and moderators will determine if the answer has been answered.

This will continue until the argument is satisfactorily treated.

My suggestion for moderator : Layth or Zenje.

Awaiting your responses. Let us now see the substance of your positions.


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Salaamun alaikum,

Free-Minds is said to be a place for people 'to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone'. This 'Islam' is further expounded by the statement 'The system of God "Islam/Submission" has been taught to us through God and His messenger and is fully outlined in the final Book of God (The Quran) which was revealed centuries ago...'.

This shows a certain set of beliefs as to what is the correct ideology and where it is contained.

If this is truly the purpose of the site and subsequently of the forum, then why is the constant disparagement against al-quraan overlooked and therefore approved of?

I'm not suggesting censorship at all. Rather, what I'm suggesting are moderated debates. Anyone who wishes to challenge either the 'quranic' position of sole authority in ad-deen or wishes to cast aspersions to the authenticity of al-quraan should be allowed to voice his view, but not use a platform where the purpose is purportedly the above to exercise a free-for-all quran-bashing session. Such things are not allowed even in liberal western societies which some people here believe to be furqaan, not al-quraan.

My suggestion for a debate format is as follows:

1. X forwards a proposition in a new 'moderated debates' section. Example : The Quran contradicts itself. See this verse and that verse

2. Y steps forward and answers. Moderators then determine if his answer actually answers the question and let him know if it doesn't. He then answers again if that is in fact the case.

3. X must then provide a reasonable counter-response to the debate or rescind his assertion completely.

I promise you, in this way, those who cast aspersions on al-quraan will not remain long and more importantly, those who are new to this forum will realise that al-quraan remains supreme in the face of human argument. As things currently are, the critics of al-quraan simply do not answer our responses and keep up their antics by posting all over the forum. We need to ask ourselves the following: Does God accept neutrality or does he accept justice? I close my suggestions with the following ayat:

Whoever recommends and facilitates a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and facilitates an evil cause, shares in its burden: And God hath power over all things (4/85)


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Salaamun alaikum,

I recommend the title above for interested readers.

Ibn Arabi's Fusus Al-hikam was the primary stimulus for me to explore the notion that the personalities of al-quraan were archetypes which exist in the human world potentially and/or actually.

This book is an explanation of Ibn Arabi's ideas on the matter. While his notions aren't purely Quranic in my opinion, we can discern his world-view from this text and surmise that the world-view itself is indeed Quranic.

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General Issues / Questions / About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« on: January 09, 2006, 01:12:39 AM »
Salaamun alaikum,

We've heard it all before from the traditionalists :
- You don't know Arabic
- You need to study 20 branches of Arabic to understand al-quraan
etc etc.

This thread arose out of my discussion with AhmedBaghat regarding meaning of words. Ahmed views that if Arabs use it a certain way, that's how it must be understood. This is why Ahmed believes 'nasaara' means 'christian'.

My view : if you asked 10 Arabs what is 'as-salaat' , all of them will say 'the 5 times ritual prayer'.

But we have 2 Arabs here who disagree that I know of. One is none other than Layth himself and the other is Ayman. Both think as-salaat isn't the ritual prayer.

Ahmed Baghat , what is your understanding of as-salaat and how did you get there?

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