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Messages - TheBookAlone

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1
I was curious to know why this topic interest you so, and I just noticed your fairly new post about "The Last Messenger, Muhammad"...

This discussion has turned into something I call "silly season" and I am moving on to another discussion.

Salaam

2
I have already given you the ayats that refer to KANA...

Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book, you will see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana".  The God uses"ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 19:64 (not forgetful) and 36:28 (not sending) and He uses "inna kana" when He IS doing something, for example in 33:40 (ever knowing) 44:3 (ever warning) 44:5 (ever sending) and 71:10 (ever forgiving).

The other ayats are supporting ayats...its called TASRIF. If, as you say these ayats, 6:61 and 7:37 reflect "past events" then are you saying that messengers used to come and take people's souls in the past but they are not doing that act in the present and future?

3
With all due respect, brother, I really don't know what else to say to you even though I have given you ayat after ayat.  I am not here to try to convince you of anything.  The God has given us the gift of intelligence and I intend to utilize it to the fullest to know who my Creator is and what MY responsibility is to Him.

If you still understand that kana "signifies past upto the point in time of saying-reading it, NOT future." after I have given you 6:61 and 7:37, just to mention a few...

and that your "time-line" is "An event. an act signified by past tense signifies time-line. The Day the Man was sent to Earth he was sent with this info that the guidance will keep coming from Him, the Sustainer Lord. The end is when the Guidance has since been sent for the entire humanity, unlike the past when it was local affair, for different nations, not global message. None, repeat none was the Messenger for entire humanity except the Last One." (I really don't know where you got this statement from because you never cited your source...but anyway) after I have given you 77:1-13 where The God gives us HIS time-line...

then I am ok with that...I just disagree with your reasoning, logic and conclusion which is based on outside sources which are filled with conjecture, speculation and man-made rules of Arabic grammar.

We all have to stand before Our Creator at the appointed time when The God sends a messenger to take our soul (hint, hint, clue, clue ...he's ever sending messengers) and He will make clear to us at that point whether we were rightly guided or astray.

Are you willing to bet your soul on what your understand?  if you are, fine...you will find out whether you were right or wrong at your appointed time.


4
ok...I am going to try this one more time...

I asked you:

According to Q.44:5, is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers ("past transaction") and is NOT SENDING ("not continous in the present and future") messengers today?

Your response was YES...
 
Then, in the ayat you quoted, 28:75, The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses.  If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger? 

The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. (93:7)  A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers sent after Moses?

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An event. an act signified by past tense signifies time-line. The Day the Man was sent to Earth he was sent with this info that the guidance will keep coming from Him, the Sustainer Lord. The end is when the Guidance has since been sent for the entire humanity, unlike the past when it was local affair, for different nations, not global message. None, repeat none was the Messenger for entire humanity except the Last One. 

This is pure conjecture with no support.  Allah gives us the "time-line" that you speak of in 77:1-13. 

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Provided one does not coin his own meanings and assigns it to the words of Allah....

As I explained to you earlier, I use tasrif, the internal dictionary of The Book, which makes clear the definition of Quranic words...it  appears, you on the other hand choose to rely only on outside sources made up of man-made rules of Arabic grammar...now i ask you, who is coining their own meaning and assigning it to the words of Allah?

5
Among other things...asked and answered...but if you missed it, here it is again...

Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book (i.e., tasrif) I see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana".  The God uses "ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 19:64 (not forgetful) and 36:28 (not sending) and uses inna kana when He IS doing something, for example in 33:40 (ever knowing) 44:3 (ever warning) 44:5 (ever sending) and 71:10 (ever forgiving).

According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is".  The God was and ever is Knowing, Forgiving, Sending, Warning.  The God does not "stop knowing" or "stop warning" or "stop sending" or "stop forgiving" unless He specifically tells you that He is not doing it. 

For the sake of simplicity, if a person is a medical doctor by profession, and he retires, in the past, he WAS a doctor, but in the present and future he doesnt stop being a doctor...he was and ever is going to be a medical doctor. 

Using your line of reasoning, if kana means "past" and not continuous in the "present and future" then if he is not sending messengers in the present or future, then there is a problem in 6:61 and 7:37 because The God says that He sends messengers to take our souls at the time of death. 

Moreover, in the ayat you quoted, 28:45 The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses.  If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger?  The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. 93:7  A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers after Moses?

The difference between what you understand kana to mean and what I understand lies in where we look to support our position.  Your understanding of the verb "kana" is supported by outside references and dictionaries/lexicons etc., which is not a bad thing, because I do that too, since English is my first language.  However, I take that research one step further and go back to The Book and see how The God uses that same word, using tasrif.   

I trust The Book Alone and Allah's argument is the Conclusive Argument.  In (6:150) Allah tells the Messenger to say to the people:

"Say: Then Allah's is the Conclusive Argument..."

It is my hope that I conveyed my understanding to you clearly. 

6
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I was expecting this sot of lengthy statement, that was the reason I wanted to know and restrict to

Why would you want to "restrict" this discussion?  The God says "...bring your proof..." (28:75). We are discussing Our Creator.  I view this forum as a "think tank" where we "roll up our sleeves and get busy."  We check our egos and baggage at the door, and contrary to Shaitan's statement that he will show Allah how ungrateful we are, that we are grateful for the gifts that The God has given us and we use our intellect to find out who Allah is and what our responsibility is to Him.

These gifts...Allah speaks about those who have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not and ears wherewith they hear not...they are like cattle, deaf and dumb, but worse than that, they are astray.  (7:179)

No one person has a "lock" on understanding of this Book.  The God says in 31:27, "And of the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea with seven more seas added to it, the words of The God would not be exhausted..."

Allah told the messenger to say to the people..."O people of the Book, come to an equitable word between us and you, that we shall serve none but Allah and that we shall not associate nothing with Him, and that some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah.  But if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims." (3:63)

My purpose here is not to convince you that I am right and you are wrong, to the contrary, if you derive some understanding from what I communicate to you, it's all good.  If you reject it, that's fine too...just know that whatever your understanding is, are you prepared to bet your soul on that understanding and stand before your Creator with that understanding and "take your lumps"...good or bad?

P.S.: when I say "you" I dont mean you personally...

Salaam

7
An interesting line of reasoning...I do not agree with it, but we all have to stand before The God with what we understand.  This is my understanding of Q.44:5:

Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book (i.e., tasrif) I see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana".  The God uses "ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 19:64 (not forgetful) and 36:28 (not sending) and when He IS doing something, for example in 33:40 (ever knowing) 44:3 (ever warning) 44:5 (ever sending) and 71:10 (ever forgiving).

According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is".  The God was and ever is Knowing, Forgiving, Sending, Warning.  The God does not "stop knowing" or "stop warning" or "stop sending" or "stop forgiving" unless He specifically tells you that He is not doing it. 

Using your line of reasoning, if kana means "past" and not continuous in the "present and future" then if he is not sending messengers in the present or future, then there is a problem in 6:61 and 7:37 because The God says that He sends messengers to take our souls at the time of death. 

Moreover, in the ayat you quoted, 28:45 The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses.  If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger?  The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. 93:7  A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers after Moses?

And as far as your "time-line" being an "event", this is a statement with no support.  However, The God tells us what the "time-line" is in 77:1-13.  Here you can read in context how The God gives us the "time-line" for when He begins and stops sending messengers.

As far as the messenger being the "perpetual and permanent warner/awakener" this is another statement with no support.  The messenger did his job during his lifetime but he's been dead for over 1400 years and is no longer able to warn anyone. 3:143

The messenger was the last of the prophets...not the last messenger because The God said that He is ever sending messengers (44:5) until they reach their appointed time, the Day of Judgement. (77:11)

Just in case you are wondering about these messengers, The God tells you that He chooses messengers from angels and men (22:75)

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Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam

Do you really want to keep saying that since in The Book of Guidance, The God told the messenger to Say to the people: "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that whic was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Issac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit." (3:83)

Or could it be that the majority of those who call themselves "sunni muslims" have adopted the habit of making this statement whenever they say something regarding the messenger...remember The God said, "And if you obey MOST of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from The God's Way.  They follow naught but conjecture and they only lie." (6:117)

When you look at the times The God speaks about MOST people, it's not a good thing. These are a few...Most hate the truth (23:70); Most associate partners (12:106); and Most are mushriks (30:42)

Leave that baggage at the door...

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First let me know whether the confusion about sending in future is over or still exists. If it still exists, what is the source in its support?

I am not confused about anything.  I am following your line of reasoning just fine.  I don't want to misunderstand your position, so to make sure that we are on the same page, could you respond to the questions:

When you translated Q. 44:5 you said "in the entire time-line"...can you please explain what you meant by that statment?  According to the Quran, what "time-line" are you referring to?  When does it begin and when does it end?

According to Q.44:5, is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers ("past transaction") and is NOT SENDING ("not continous in the present and future") messengers today?
 
Is it your understanding that "Mohammad" is a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener not only to the people during his time but also a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener to everyone the Quran reaches after his death:

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Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam pronounced "And this Qur'aan has been communicated to me so that I admonish/awaken you the living people [corporeally with me] with this and to admonish/ awaken the one whom this Qur'aan reached". [He is the Warner/Awakener for each and every person whom Qur'aan reached. Qur'aan is to stay permanently and perpetually till the Last Day and thus he, Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam is permanently and perpetually The Warner/Awakener];

All time Admonisher 

9
"in the entire time-line"...can you please explain what you mean by that statment?  What "time-line" are you referring to?  When does it begin and when does it end?

And is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers and is NOT SENDING messengers today?

And is it your understanding that "Mohammad" is the "perpetual and permanent" warner/awakener?

10
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The above signifies and portrays, "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line." 

Thank you for your response.  Let me be clearly on what you are conveying:

Are you saying that given the verb, sentence structure, etc., in Q.44:5, you understand that a more precise translation of this ayat is: "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line."

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