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Messages - Iyyaka

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By meditating on Wakas' article (;boardseen#new) and on this other article, an idea came to me to try to grasp the meaning of "watallahu lil'jabīni" in (37:103).
Also by meditating on a passage that is often overlooked in (37:102) about the speech of ismael: "If Allah intends" ...
Looking at the structure of this passage more closely we can notice a Synonymy between the two parts (Below part one in red and part two in blue)

As a reminder, the sequence B speaks of the vision and the sequence B' is AFTER the vision has been realized.
Two temporal sequences that are connected and follow each other but without the central sequence that details the vision that asks to devote oneself to God.

Reminder of some parts of the structure of the passage (37:100-112)

Rhetoric analysis :

- B -
Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-sa'ya,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       He said: "O my son, indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
       so look what you think-about-it
       - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       He said, "O my father, do what you were ordered.
       You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined / l-ṣābirīna.

- B '-
Then when/falammā both of them had abandoned (to Allah's order)
  and watallahu to the forehead/lil'jabīni,
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
       You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step.
       Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.

Linguistic analysis :

- the root of jīm bā nūn (ج ب ن) "lil'jabīni" refers also to someone who is a coward, weak, shrink..
So lil'jabīni can symbolically represented cowardice, lack of determination and being the opposite of the root root is ṣād bā rā (ص ب ر) "l-ṣābirīna"

So, the expression"watallahu lil'jabīni,"  can means "God helped Ishmael to not to be weak, a coward and to be among the resolute/the determined/persevering" as Ishmael asks in (37:102) => he (Allah) put down the cowardise, the weakness of Ishmael.


How strange! A man working on semitic rhetoric shows ignorance about type of text. Please just google to see how many are types of text and their characteristics, peculiar features. And thereafter look at 37:100-13.
Sarcasm brings nothing and read/meditate my text to the end instead of cutting it and take what you want.
And as you know I already posted the structure of this passage here (Go to the last message)

A clarification: I do not work on the Semitic rhetoric but on the way in which the Koranic speech is structured and coherent and harmonious. Semitic rhetoric is only a tool adapted to the Qur'anic context and to highlight relations between ayats in the Koran

To understand a text, first ting is to determine the type of text. Without, whatever is perceived it is erroneous. Each type of text has distinct choice of words and structures.

Firstly we should determine the type of text in 37:100-113.
I don't know what you mean by "type of text" but, as Allah says in the Quran, if you isolate passage or ayats you may be erroneous like if you don't have a "Raḥmān-ic" context reading of the text..(put the "Basmala" [1:1] in your heart and as a reading grid).
37:100-113 is not isolated from a bigger structure which is 37:75-148 and of all the surah 37 and surah 38 and surah 2 and all the quran..

For example, the only surah where Abraham AND Ishmael act together is surah 37 and 2...It is not a coincidence : all is linked.

For example, the quality of Ishmael is repeated here :
- 21:85 And Ishmael and Enoch and Isaiah, all of them were persevering. (alssabireena => same root in surah 37.)
- 19:54 And recall in the Writing, Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger prophet. (promise ? Which promise ? Look at surah 37..)

@hawk99 => Abraham knows the essence of his master (Rahma as we must know FIRST) and he is able to make the difference between a bad/evil order and a good order. If you read the story of abaraham you will realize that Abraham is someone who doubts and questions the "obvious" things (even from hiw own father !). But in surah 37 there is no place for doubt from Abraham or Ishmael so the vision was clear and the origin has been from God.

Salam Wakas,

I realize that I rushed to answer you. The points you raise are interesting especially with the word "TaLLa" and "the vision" (al ru'ya).
You could add the verb "ṣaddaqta" in (37:105) with its form 2 (repetition of an effort in time which corresponds well with the word l-ṣābirīna used to characterize Ismael). This verb expresses the idea of ​​an accomplishment, of the realization of something in adequacy with one's desire.

I do not agree with your conculsion especially on the word dhib'hin/sacrifice "(root: Dh-BH) which for me must be takes in a figurative sense of "to devote oneself to" ( the context of the passage, to a noble and divine cause like the other prophets cited as an example in this surah).
And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

Otherwise, to return to the word "TaLLa", your approach is interesting and seductive. This words appears in a sequence [B' in my thread] where, just after this words erupts, Ismael disappears and there remains only God and Ismael as if Ismael was no longer present ; and that Abraham, after fulfilling his mission with Ismael, let Ismael continue alone the work begun in this corner of the desert.
So we would have (I repeat your translation) the following successive sequences:

   (1) So when they are submitted => The accomplished is used here so the realization of the vision is finished

   (2) and he (Abraham) brought ** him (son) to *** his (Abraham's) forehead (or side of head). => The accomplished is here also used and according to your conception Abraham says goodbye with tenderness to his son (smaller than him)

   (3) And We called him: "O Abraham," .. => Abraham departed from his son and God thanked Abraham and comforted him in some way because what he did with his son will be remembered in the memories of men.

Finally, there is no time sequence in Surah 37 between the moment of vision and that of realization.
This sequence is found in Surah (2:124-129).
Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla":
How do you translate and understand (2:127) ?
          Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
          2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

Peace. Thanks for sharing your meditation and reflection.

NB : How do you incorporate images into message ? :)

Salam Wakas,

You will find a study here

Some points :
(1) The main and original meaning of the word "TaLLa" (root: Ta-Lam-Lam) in Hebrew like in Arabic is to Heap...This is the main corruption in some classic dictionnary
(2) Link this passage with ALL the surah 37 to have a better understanding
(3) Research the structure (determined the key movie sequences) of this passage
=> all this points are discussed in the link above.

Last but MAIN important points :
(1) Before understanding this passage it is imporant to understand what is the vision of God in the Quran : Al-Rahman..
(2) who blows evil into the breasts of men ? (Cf. surah 113-114) Or, clearly here God gives to Abraham a vision..

NB : good remark with the preposition "li" (destination, possession)


I am close to Mazhar translation and the remark of "Good logic" is good to link this ayat with the previous (2:170) and from a rhetorical analysis it is also linked to ayats (2:163-164) and (2:18).

My translation of 2:171 :
- First part of the ayat :
The example of those who deny is the image of the one whose is beating the drum (bringing/rounding up) and hears only calls and clamor.
- Second part of the ayat :
Deaf, dumb, blind, they do not understand.

Linguistic explanations:

(1) (2:171:6) - yanʿiqu - Root nūn ʿayn qāf (ن ع ق)
=> How the arab used this root ? "for the shepherd to scold or talk harshly to the herd in order to drive it forward.
In french the best word to translate is : Rameuter (by using the voice with insistence and repetition).

(2) One of the meaning of the root qāf rā hamza (ق ر أ) (from whitch is derived the word " l-Qur'ānu") is (like in all semitic language) : shouting, calling...

Rhetoric explanations:

The first part of the ayat (2:171) is linked to :
  - (2:170) And if they are told: "Follow what God has sent down,"...

        Follow what ? Which Call/Shout ? Answer here :

  - (2:163) And your divinity is but One divinity, there is no divinity except He;
the All-full-of-benevolence-and-protection, the-inexhaustible-benevolent-protector.

The second part of the ayat (2:171) is linked to :
  - the first part of the ayat (2:171)
  - The ayat (2:164) connected with "blind, they do not understand"
  - The ayat (2:18)..



Here is a small interesting Quranic study to complete my study about the meaning of the word ma'dūdātin as a "weak plural form" (between 3 and 10) in (2:184).

Let's compare two verses (From "The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)):
- (12:43) 12:43 And the king said: "I'm still going to be dreaming of being fat with seven thin ones, and seven (multiple) green pods and some others who are dry. vision means if you are able to interpret the visions. "
- (2:261) The example of those who spend their money in the cause of God is like a seed that sprouts seven (multiple) pods, in each pod there is one hundred seeds; and God multiplies for whoever He chooses, and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

What interests us here is the comparison between identical expressions in the English translation but with a slight subtle difference in Arabic:
- (12:43) "wasab'a / multiple sunbulātin / ears (of corn)
- (2:261) "sab'a / multiple sanābila / ears (of corn)

Why this difference wanted by God? Because it is context dependent:
- (12:43) Context of dearth period = A weak Plural form which expresses this dearth period (a few..)
- (2:261) Context of abundance = A strong Plural form which expresses this generosity (a lot ..)

Now, the ending of the word sunbulātin in (12:43) corresponds to the ending of the word ma'dūdātin in 2:184.

We can admire the precision of the Quranic language that does not always glimpse its translation into other languages ​​such as English or French.


General Issues / Questions / Re: who is Kaafir?
« on: July 21, 2019, 11:02:30 AM »

Good answers from all. Nothing to add except to reach the same result by another approach: the knowledge of the signs-symbols-letters of the Koran.

1) the meaning by the pictographic approach: Al-Kafir

K => Cover the existence (idea of the grip that someone have on things ..)
F => Truth/reality Obvious (idea of ​​gushing, explosion ..)
R => With insistence (idea of ​​repetition, durability ..)

The most beautiful examples in my opinion to illustrate this profound and fundamental meaning are found in ayats (2:226) and (57:20) with the idea of ​​the sown seed that is cared for and which produces abundance over time.

The seed of faith (represented here by the symbol F) which is this "trusted-deposit" (33:72) accepted by human beings must not be permanently recovered

2) Difference Kafir and Kafara:

- Kafir is a qualifier, a state..This requires continuity, perseverance over a very long period
- Kafara is an action in time so limited (there is a beginning and an end)

Thus one can do the parrallel with the root K-T-B (kitab). Many people write but that does not mean they are writers.



I realized that i made a few mistakes by structuring the passage (37:100->112) according to the principles of the rhetorical analysis of the Koranic text (I recall the principle of symmetry, binary which is its heart). It will also be the opportunity to add some comments or to deepen certain aspects already treated (Basic root meaning of certain terms..)

This passage is structured according to the scheme: : A - B - B' - A'. My mistake : It is not a concentric structure as i said previously (Found in page 2 of this subject)

- A-
My responsible-of-evolution, grant me among the righteous.
So, We gave him the glad tidings of a shrewd/ḥalīmin boy.
     - B -
     Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-saʿya,
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          He said: "O my son, Indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
          so look what you think-about-it/tarā..
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          He said, "O my father, do what you were commanded..
          You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined/l-ṣābirīna.

     - B' -
     Then when/falammā both of them had abandonned instantly to Allah's order and he heaped it/watallahu to the
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
          You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step (verbal Form 2 and past tense means accomplish something) the vision.
          Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
               Indeed, this (was) surely [it] an explicit trial.
               And we rewarded him with a sacrifice great.
               And we perpetuate it for him in the After.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Peace be on Ibrahim.
          Thus We reward the good-doers.
          Indeed, he (was) among our faithful servants.

- A' -
And we gave him the glad tidings of Isaac,
a prophet among the righteous.

--- Vocabulary -----

ḥalīmin ?
Ibn Faris says its basic meaning is not to hurry, i.e. not to flare up instantly over some trivial thing. Thus, it led to the word “ تَحَلَّمَ الْمَا ل ” (tahallamal maal) which is said when the animals become fat and corpulent, and they become more sturdy too.
Therefore, “ حَلِیْمٌ ” (haleem) means understanding, authentic, stable, always one to act according to law and principle, one who does not flare up emotionally, shrewd (in relationship with mind)
Simple selflessness is the product of weakness but "hilm" encompasses a feeling of strength and energy within it, but which is under full control and which does not allow for loss of this control even under very stringent circumstances and does nothing that is cause for repentance. So it cannot be use for a child but for someone who at least reach the puberty (enough strength and and ability to reason with discernment by oneself). The following verse (37:102) will confirm it by using the word "l-saʿya".
So we cannot speak first of humility, self-effacing, soft spoken, forbearing..

l-saʿya ?
The Quran has used this word to mean run (2:260, 20:20), as well as to mean to strive for (17:19). That is, running around, struggle, strive and take action, etc.

adhbaḥuka ?
ذَبَحَ  (zabah) (yazbah): to slaughter, to split, to tear apart => To split from a normal life to an elevated life dedicated to God...
Ibn Faris also says that these are its basic meanings.

tarā ?
(rooyah): to comprehend some material thing.

This word is used for seeing with the eyes, or have insight, or to dream or think about it.

It is said for a long time, period

and he put him down ?

The fundamental meaning of (tallu) is the land that is considerably higher than the surroundings.
Example -> (al-latllu min turaab) is a mound of dirt. So to heap.. The root T-L-W (close) shares alos this notion to accumulate, Something, coming after another thing etc..

We find this definition in Hebrew too :

And more definition : to knock down, to lay down, to be tough, to be stocky, to agitate..What is the link with the fundamental meaning excepted lexical entries following the exegesis of the Koran. Perhaps, a solution may comes from the bible where we can find the notion of a heap but a heap (with an idea of something compact) of ruin ; following the destruction of something elevated at the origin like a city or a temple.

lil'jabīni ?
(1)   li - ل = to, for..Often allows to express possession. There is no idea of « upon/on » as many people translate it.
(2)   Jabini = forehead but not all the forehead, a precise part of the forehead . Indeed, (al- ajabeenaani) is temples (both sides of forehead) where the folds occur. Its singular is  (al- jabeenu). (al-jabhatunh) is also the fore head (this in between the temples).

Remark : Whe you lay down the animal for slaughering it you put it on one side to slaughter it with ease not on the forehead !

l-muḥ'sinīna ?
(al-husn): Muheet says that (husn), or beauty means for all limbs to be in the right proportion, and generally the word (haseen), or beautiful, is used for things which are pleasing to the eye due to their balanced proportions. As such (husn) means the right proportion and symmetry, and is the opposite of (so’a) which means unbalanced or bad.

Remark : Does even trying to kill is own son is something from god (Al-Rahman Al-Rahim) and it is something beauty and well mentally balanced ?

great ?
Ibn Faris says that this root means to be great and strong.
Surah An-Noor uses (azeem) to mean “importance” against (hayyin), which means “something not so important” (24:15).

--- Meditation-----

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
2:106 : Any sign which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
=> The sacrifice of Isaac from the bible (contradictory with the principles of the Koran) is "consign to oblivion" and replace with a better and similar one, the sacrifice of Abraham and Ismael to build a city dedicated to God..


Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: The seven often repeated..
« on: July 07, 2019, 11:09:36 AM »
Salam brother Amra94 and Mazhar,

Let me develop what Mazhar said.

But before to do it, i must state that i don't assimilate this ayat to surah Al-fatiha because of the presence of the preposition "Mina" (of = Provenance, origin) in (15:87:4). Thus, the word sab'an (seven) must be taken in its Semitic well-known sense as "Multiple, several".

As Mazhar pointed out, the form mśany (twice in the Koran - it returns to it later) carries the fundamental notion of Binarity (the place of the double). If it is sometimes translated by "the oft-repeated" but it is well understood that it is the doubling of something or act.

It is necessary to approach a primordial aspect of the Koran: The "binary" aspect of the Koranic speech. The "binary" opposition between what is positive and what is negative goes through the corpus systematically with many examples that are similar to express this central theme.
Thus, the universe described by the Qur'an is a permanent binary universe.
"Binary" is understood here in the sense of "that which comprises only two states, or two sets of elements" (it will be seen below that this definition can be extended). For example, this appears almost obvious from the beginning of the text in the canonical order: from the sura al-Fatiya the text opposes those who are well-guided and misguided, and those who receive grace against those against which God is angry ...

Other important extended forms of "binarity":
- Binarity "guidance / misguidance": The notion of good or bad guidance permeates a significant part of the text. The Koran and the
Earlier scriptures participate in the fact that God guides on the good way, while those who refuse these scriptures are lost; it reinforces the negative view about them.
- The binarity "blessing / misfortune" and "reward / punishment": This binarity is about what God gives: it's about benefits and rewards for the victors, of calamities and punishments for the iniquitous or deniers.
- The binarity "clarity / darkness": God leads men from darkness to light, and does so by means of the Scriptures and especially the Koran, which makes everything clear.
- A fourth binarity, which is more related to the argumentation concerning the adherence to the Koran: the binarity "faith / denial", "certainty / lie".
etc ...

Now let's go back to the two verses with their literal context or this form appears in (15:87) and (39:23) - Google Translate (Sorry no time but essential is safe) :

[15:86] Your Lord is the One who keeps creating, the all-knowing.
[15:87] We have given you multiple binarities, and the grand Qur'an.
[15:88] Do not take your gaze with envy toward what We have granted enjoyment to certain couples / azwājan of them, and do not grieve over them.
Lower your wing for those who have the faith.

[39:23] God brought down the best of the speech, a scripture involving similarities in a binary way.
The skins of those who fear their Lord shudder.
Then their skin and their heart are to soften to the remembrance of God.
This is the guidance of God by which He guides who He wills.
But whoever misleads God does not have a guide.

Remark n°1:
- God puts us on the track of the meaning of the word "l-mathānī" and (15:87) using the word Zawj in (15:88) => Strong similarity of meaning.

Remark n°2:
- I colored the text using 2 colors (red = negative, Green = positive) to bring out the binarity in play.

Remark n°3:
- God gives us a remarkable illustration of the expression "mutashābihan mathāniya" (39:23) using only the mśany form in these 2 verses (not quite the same but resembling in the positive binarity):
[15:87] We have given you multiple binarities (1),
   And the grand Call (2).
   [39:23] God brought down the best of the speech (2'),
A scripture involving similarities in a binary way (1')

=> Confirmation here :
[39:27] We have presented to people in this Qur'an all kinds of examples (sabʿan/Multiple + mutashābihan/Ressembling) so that they may remember.
[39:28] An Arabic Qur'an, without tortuosity (clear with the help of the binarity), so that they protect themselves.

Remark n°4:
- [15:86] Your Lord is the One who never ceases to create (Equivalence of the word "sab'an / multiple"), the All-Knowing (Through the best play of binarism, God unambiguously clears the right path to follow).

Furthermore, around verse 39:23, God gives us other examples of binarity that are alike:

[39:17] Those who avoid the idols not to worship them, and to repent to God: to them the good news. Announcement to My servants,
[39:18] Those who listen to the Word, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided, these are the gifted with intelligence.

[39:19] He against whom the word of punishment is fulfilled: do you save him who is in the fire?
[39:20] But those who have guarded their Lord: for them rooms, above which other chambers are built and under which rivers flow.
God's promise! God breaks no promise.

[39:21] Do you not see that God sends down water from the sky? He introduces it in the form of springs into the earth, and then leaves out cultures of various colors, which then fade, so that you see them yellowed. Then, He reduces them to withered twigs.
In this, there is a reminder for the gifted.
[39:22] Does he whose God opens his chest to self-surrender (to God) and so stands on a light from his Lord ... Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against reminder of God.
These are in an obvious misguidance.

[39:24] Whoever, on the Day of Resurrection, will have the foresight of the worst chastisement with his face ... One will say to the unjust ones, "Taste what you have acquired".
[39:25] Those who lived before them denied, the punishment came to them by which they did not feel it.
[39:26] God made them taste humiliation in the life of this world. But the punishment of the Hereafter is greater, if they knew!
[39:27] We have presented to people in this Qur'an all kinds of examples so that they may remember.
[39:28] An Arabic Koran, without tortuosity, so that they protect themselves.
[39:29] For example, God presents a man whose partners are quarreling, and a man at peace with another man: are they equal in comparison? Praise to God !
But most of them do not know.

Lastly, the essential characteristic of Koranic language and Semitic rhetoric is binarity. Here we must understand by binary the fact that two linguistic elements or two signified elements are put intentionally in relation in the text. Through this definition we find the great law of symmetry that underlies all the rhetoric of the Koran. The bilingualism can be understood at the level of the terms and concepts but also at the level of the speech (in this forum I already gave many examples).


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