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Messages - TheQuranAloneRevolution

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1
Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan. / Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« on: May 13, 2014, 10:51:31 AM »
What about having the fasting period count the new moon after the summer solstice? has anyone experimented with this idea?

2
Economics Forum / "Get money out of politics" Wolf PAC
« on: May 13, 2014, 07:35:13 AM »

There is a resolution being introduced reverse citizens united  and this of course would restore free and fair elections in america, and get the money out of politics. We are trying to introduce a resolution by way of article V (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTEFbbxMXyo)

Please speak with your local or state rep/senator about this resolution

3
advise them or point out to them is not a punishment, it is the same kind of thig as when believers are told to enjoin other believers to do right an shun bad. It is no punishment. How much pointing out to them, seven times a day? four hundred? In front of people? alone? Advising and pointing things out to somebody is not punishing anybody. It is no ppenalty that can stretch from the moon to one milimiter.



So, please, spell which verbal from would you use to speak about two, one of them a male and one of them a female, using, of course, the dual?

Are you inventig grammar anew?

Salaam


The word here is "fa2zuhuma", which has the same root word for when God talks about MENSTRUATION (2:222) as "Ezza" = something painful/Harm. The word "fa2zuhoma" would translate to Admonish/chastise them, look at any translation, you think I'm making this up? Look at parallel 50 translations ans see for yourselfhttp://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/16/default.htm

God is very clear. The word is NOT advise them (3ezohuma), or to point things out to them (qowla baleegha)... The word is "Fa2zuhuma' = Admonish/chastise them, which is a form of a light punishment, as well as clearly telling them what they're doing is wrong.

Note: This only applies to BELIEVERS (minkom) who commit this , unbelievers are not under this law.

4
Masculine or mixed, it is a male and a female it is that same word, not a different word.

And there is no punishment.

Salaam


1) The Punishment is Admonishing (fa2zuhoma), since this is different than regular adultery/fornication (heterosexual), therefor it is a homosexual misconduct, and the punishment is admonishment for the individual, which you have admitted when you stated, "It is said that people should be admonised or signalled the uglyness of their doings ", therefore this is a different "punishment" than for heterosexual misconduct, it is lighter, but the bottom line is, The Quran does not support nor advocate for homosexual activities

2) The words are still  4:16 is clearly Masculine and Dual, thus 2 males, :
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=16#(4:16:1)

5
Not at all, what is being done is fahishaand that is what the Qur'an says that they are doing. It does say it. Nowhere it is said that anybody is doing anything with somebody of the same sex. Zina is one thing, fahisha is something else. May be homosexual acts can be fahisha, but by no means fahisha is synonim of homosexual acts. And here is no punishment. It is said that people should be admonised or signalled the uglyness of their doings but nowhere is a punishment alloted. If they repent you stop pointing out  what they are doing that is ugly. That is all, there is no judicial punishment for it. just as there is no judicial punishment in 4.15.

The dual has the same form whether it is a male and a female or whether it is two males. You cannot affirm from that that it is talking about two males. It might be or it might not be. If the Qur'an was talking about homosexual acts and was meaning it has the means to make it unequivocal.

Salaam


1) I stated that the punishment is DIFFERENT than Zina, but there is still a punishment for it, and a peculiar punishment because it is not the regular punishment of "zina", so here we have a different role (meaning this is NOT a heterosexual sexual misconduct  :!, this would be a homosexual sexual misconduct)

2) 4:16 is clearly MASCULINE and Dual, thus 2 males, check for yourself:
"Alazaan" (The two of you) is a masculine dual relative pronoun
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=16#(4:16:1)


6

Not really. It is dual generic or masculine, it might be talking about two males or it might be talking about a male and a female. And there is no hint whatsoever that it is talking about homosexual sex. Just as there is no hint whatsoever that in the previous aya 4.15 it is talking about homosexual female sex. And why should in 4.15 be using the plural and in the next aya de dual to speak about both sexes? And say very different things?


No, there is no foundation to understand it as homosexual sex. Rather 4.15 is referring to public soliciting by prostitutes, and the next aya 4.16 is referring to the prostitute and the client. And that is related to the last part of aya 4.34 where it is talking about the nushuz of women and of the injuonction to the community of investigating about them (advice them, leave them in their places of sleeping and solve their problem).

Clearly in 4.15 four witnesses are required to determine that in fact the women are doing what the are said to be doing, and once determined tha community os commanded to take them off the street and put them in proper houses till they have another way to provide for themselves and thir families or till death. But they are not to leave in in the street to fend for themselves. And the prostitute and the client are to be shown the wrongness of their doings and helpe them to repent and stop it.

No word about homosexuality neither in 4.15 nor in 4.16. If anything is said it is just conjecture.

Prostitution is a very common thing in almost all societies. It would be surprising if the Qur'an did not say a word about it, when it is public and wellknown. Well those two ayas seem to speak about it. 


Salaam



4:16 is about homosexual sex because:
1) It is a different punishment than Adultery (no lashes)
2) the wording of "punish/admonish them" is dual, so dual masculine figures, committing lewdness, and both dual masculine figures get punished, and IF THEY REPENT, then we are to LEAVE THEM ALONE.... Notice how the punishment should be continued  UNTIL they stop what they're doing (i.e "and IF the repent")..... this is clearly about homosexual acts because it is different than regular punishment for Zina/adultery

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The problem that I have with using titles to define the content is that this is not done with all of the titles. Does "The Cow" give special meaning to the 2nd surah--or "The Bee" (which is mentioned exactly once in surah 16)?  :hmm There is much in surah 4 that does not pertain to women exclusively, look at 4:16 and 4:29 for instance. A title is NOT a context, context is better provided by the surrounding ayahs.

I find the immediate context to be of marriage and relationships, not women. Bear in mind that many same sex relationships are between women. Going along with the understanding that the context of surah 4 is women should also give the understanding that same sex relationships between women are clearly allowed.

Either same sex relationships are "what is beyond this," or they are not. It seems clear that they *are* "what is beyond this," especially if they aren't addressed.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi


You clearly don't understand that Arabic has a separate Feminine tense. You rely on English translations which strips the preciseness of the Arabic. 4:24, "what is beyond that" is directed at women, the wording is feminine.


FYI: In 4:16 HOMOSEXUAL activity between two men is addressed, and is to be punished. The wording is Masculine DUAL ( 2 Men, Together, having sex)..... Need I say more?



You will never find support for Same sex marriage from the Quran, Trust me I know because I looked and it is clear as day and night that God created Men for women.


8
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Thank you for clarifying. Homosexual relationships are beyond what is mentioned, and beyond what is mentioned is permitted. What do you know, the Arabic *IS* clear and easy to understand.  :)

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi


You clearly misunderstood my response.  I was meaning that Homosexual intimacy is Beyond the standard of God of marriage.

  4:24 is Talking about women, and "what is beyond this" IS DIRECTED AT WOMEN, NOT MEN:


You can marry what is beyond that OF WOMEN, and the "you shall give them their dowries" is Plural and FEMININE  = directed at women, NOT men!
You have no hope for finding support of same-sex marriage from the Quran, because I have tried to look for it, but I never found it, and in fact found that the only marriage is between men and women, not men and men, not men and animals, not men and children.

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peace,

It seems you have conflated the word "zakat" with the verbs. This can be shown from what you wrote, wherein you translated the same word differently (emphasis mine):

Any reason for this, or was it an oversight/error?


To my knowledge, there is no clear example of the word "zakat" meaning "charity".


1) They are actually not the same word: see in 92:18 it's about someone giving money away as a form of "purifying himself", (so yes, Someone was giving money to charity in order to attain and accomplish "zakat" or purity/to become pure) (yatazaka).
2) In 80:3+, it is about someone who has a potential to become purified (yazaka) by hearing about the message of the Quran

10
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red for easy reading.

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise. 

So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not?  Yes or no, please.

23:5 And they keep covered their private parts.
23:6 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.


http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi



You clearly have no knowledge of the Arabic, 4:24 is talking about Women, from the start of the verse, all the way to the end.. So the answer is Yes--a homosexual relationship is beyond this.

4:24 And the independent from the women (feminine), except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex (feminine). As for those (feminine) whom you have already had joy with (feminine), then you shall give them (feminine) their dowries as an obligation (feminine). There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise. 



What constitutes marriage is a A spouse= A Mate, Definition of Mate:


Spouse = Zawj
Mate = Zawj ( i.e it is Same word, people translate them differently, Spouse = Mate (Arabic Zawj) )

"It is He who created you from one soul (MASCULINE) and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her (FEMININE). And when he covers her (i.e sex), she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, "If You should give us a good [child], we will surely be among the grateful." (7:189)

God Created TWO PAIRS of of spouses, One male (zakar) and one Female (Onthaa).
53:45 He is the One who created the two Mates, male and female

Thus the union and Marriage is between male + Female.




In fact, opon believers There is a punishment for homosexual activity for men, which is very peculiar because  it is a different punishment than for adultery, and separated from regular punishment (i.e it does not call for lashings)

"The two of you (2 Masculine figures/ Masculine Dual) who commits lewdness shall be admonished. If they (masculine Dual)  repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Most Merciful." (4:16)

So Believers with same-sex attraction need to practice self control and keep their chastity, unless they want to give marrying women a try.


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