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Community Needs => Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) => Topic started by: Wakas on March 28, 2005, 01:40:35 AM

Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on March 28, 2005, 01:40:35 AM
peace All,

Some regular members here, and often new members, still believe salat=prayer, perhaps not identical to the traditional method but similar to it. This post is directed to them...

The most powerful argument against such a view can be found in 9:5 & 9:10-12.
Please note the exact same wording "wa aqamoo al ssalata" / "and uphold/maintain the salat" is used in these ayatin/signs as is used in many places when recommending salat for the believers. Thus how do they interpret these ayatin/signs with their salat=prayer view?

The reason I ask this question is not to antagonise, but to understand, as I have not seen this point addressed by anyone who holds such a view (if I have missed such a post, please reference it).

I would like to "stick my neck out" here and say that no-one will be able to answer this question without severely compromising their salat=prayer view.



Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on March 28, 2005, 03:42:09 AM
Salaam Wakas,

I will take a stab at the question that you posed.  I think that the key word is TABA and how it is translated.

Here is what prl mentioned:
= Ta-Alif/Waw-Ba = To return; repent; turn one's self in a repentant manner (with ila or without it), turn with mercy (with ala), adapt.
[2:37, 5:39, 58:13, 33:73, 11:90, 3:90, 9:112, 13:30, 49:12, 110:3]

However, according to my reading of the Lisan AlAlrab and Qamoos Muheet, the better way to translate the word is Return/turn to GOD's way.
If you look at the occurences of the root and it's derivatives in the Qur'an you will find that it relates to
1- Return/turn to GOD's way for people
2- GOD helping people return/turn to GOD' s way.  As in TAWWAB.

Now for the AYAT that you mentioned:
9:5------fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
I translate this way:
So If they return/turn themselves to GOD's way (which would be Islam) and Kept upright the prayers -------

This is further explained by the 9:11:
 Fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fa-ikhwanukum feealddeeni wanufassilu al-ayatiliqawmin yaAAlamoona

Which I would translate this way:
So if they return/turn to GOD's way and kept upright the prayers and made come the Zakat then they are your brothers in DEEN (religion/obligation which is ISLAM as in 3:19)

I hope this helps some.  Take care and have a great day


hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on March 28, 2005, 08:01:23 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Thanks for having a stab. I had an inkling you would reply.

I have the following comments:

1) Your translation assumes they were initially following islam, because according to you they are returning to islam. Where in the context does it mention they were following islam previously? It doesn't, they are clearly described as idolaters/transgressors. Thus "return" is out, "turn" is possible.

2) If someone breaks an agreement/treaty, must they convert/revert to islam in order for them to be forgiven? This is what you are implying and this makes no sense. How do you reconcile such a view with 2:256 amongst other ayatin/signs?


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on March 28, 2005, 12:42:33 PM
Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for your response.

Wakas wrote:
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Thus "return" is out, "turn" is possible.

I actually put both in my translation.  I agree that the Turn to GOD's way is the appropriate use here.  This is in agreement with PRL as well as with my reading of Lisan AlARAB and Qamoos Muheet.

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2) If someone breaks an agreement/treaty, must they convert/revert to islam in order for them to be forgiven? This is what you are implying and this makes no sense. How do you reconcile such a view with 2:256 amongst other ayatin/signs?

This is one of their options as put in 9:5, but it is not the only option.  Another option comes in 9:6:

9:6 And if one amongst the Pagans ask thee for safety/protection, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. For they are people without knowledge.

So, you can see that there is no compulsion here.  They can convert as in 9:5, or they can ask for their safety and it will be granted.

Salaam and take care


Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on March 29, 2005, 05:36:55 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Whilst I appreciate how someone could come to such an understanding, I have the following problems:

1) 9:6 begins with "wa/and" not "or".

2)
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so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure.


Thus, the option now is, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination, thus expelled?

3) Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination,  thus expelled) from the rest of al quran?

4) Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation.

5) Would finding an occassion in al quran in which those who broke a treaty were still living along with the believers nullify your translation?

6) What is your translation of 9:11-12?

11. If they (Pagans) turn to God's way (i.e. convert to muslims), and they kept upright the prayers, and they bring the zakat, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

12. And if they (muslims OR pagans?) break their oaths after making them, and they denounce the authority of your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on March 29, 2005, 08:28:30 AM
Salaam Wakas and thanks for your response,

You said:
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1) 9:6 begins with "wa/and" not "or".

I will explain further
9:5 says So if they---- (Become muslim) then leave them alone.  that is one option. then 9:6 says:
9:6 And if one of the pagans asks you for safety grant it .  And that is the other option.  

There is no or but the options are understood.
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Thus, the option now is, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination, thus expelled?


Expulsion is a wrong understanding.  the word is Ma'AMANAHUM which I would translate as PLACE WHERE THEY FEEL SAFE.  This place can be their own homes, their own tribe, in the prophets house, next door to the prophet or any where they feel safe in or out of areas of muslim control.

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6) What is your translation of 9:11-12?

11. If they (Pagans) turn to God's way (i.e. convert to muslims), and they kept upright the prayers, and they bring the zakat, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

12. And if they (muslims OR pagans?) break their oaths after making them, and they denounce the authority of your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.


I have no problem with the way you translated 9:11.  I would however prefer a different interpretation for 9:12:

9:12 And if they (pagans turn muslims) break their oaths after making them, and speared in (attacked) your system, then fight (not kill) the leaders of rejection.  Their oaths are  no oaths, perhaps they will cease.

So, the way I undesrtand the two AYAT is like this;
9:11 they become muslims then they are brothers
9:12 and if they turn back to their old ways then fight their leaders.  Their oaths are not reliable (because they broke two oaths now, the first  mentioned 9-4 and the second was the oath of Islam).  Fighting them may help them cease, in attacking the religion of Islam.

There is no killing here and the fighting is only against the leaders of rejection.  You leave the rest of the pagans alone.

Salaam and have a good evening


hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on March 29, 2005, 11:23:44 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Thanks for clarifying.

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There is no or but the options are understood.


I feel it would have been more logical with an "or", I guess "and" is acceptable. The problem is that not once are the so-called converts (i.e. believers) explicitly referenced* as such in the relevant ayatin/signs. This to me, is suspect.

*for me, 'brothers' is not an explicit reference to belief.

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I would translate as PLACE WHERE THEY FEEL SAFE. This place can be their own homes, their own tribe, in the prophets house, next door to the prophet or any where they feel safe in or out of areas of muslim control.


This seems like a non-punishment! The ayatin are pretty severe, yet the transgressors/pagans get let off with an escort of safety to their own home? No compensation, no re-commitment to the broken treaty/oath, nothing. I assume they get a safety escort because they broke a pledge so there may be some animosity towards them from others, but what happens once they leave their home? Imagining a workable practical example is difficult in my opinion.

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9:12 And if they (pagans turn muslims) break their oaths after making them, and speared in (attacked) your system, then fight (not kill) the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are no oaths, perhaps they will cease.


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(because they broke two oaths now, the first mentioned 9-4 and the second was the oath of Islam).


I'm glad you pointed this out.
There is no formal "oath of Islam" mentioned in al quran. There is no ceremonial "oath of islam" mentioned in al quran, which they apparently made [9:12]. How would this go? What would they say? Only The God knows who is a muslim and who is not. Is there any supporting evidence in al quran for such a formal declaration/oath?

If we take into account your extrapolation of "turn (to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam)" (the underlined part not being in the Arabic)* and focus on the only thing mentioned in context which they pledged to uphold/maintain, it only leaves one option... salat.

*nor is the oath explicitly divulged (if one believes its an "oath of Islam")

My view is that there is a direct opposing comparison between "upholding/maintaining the salat" and "breaking their oaths/pledges". Thus why extrapolate when we have a meaning which fits like a glove:

Taken from PRL (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/ProjectRootList.htm):

ص ل و = Sad-Lam-Waw (http://www.openburhan.com/data/b.x.211.htm) = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached, to contact or to be in contact.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely / remains attached).
Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump.

Especially if we take into account the core meaning of slw (to go/turn towards).
NB: One could substitute this term with similar words such as link/bond/connect, remain attached, continue contact, follow closely or commitment, i.e. a word which implies to go/turn towards (in a close/positive manner).

Also, you never answered my other questions (modified):

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3) Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination) from the rest of al quran?

4) Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation.


God bless.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on March 29, 2005, 10:40:50 PM
Salaam Wakas,

I would like to say that this discussion is very refreshing to me.  I thank you for it.  Now to business:
wakas said:
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*for me, 'brothers' is not an explicit reference to belief.

I actually did not use the word belief.  I used Islam.  The reason I used brother in Islam is this Ayah:

3:19 The system (DEEN) before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will):

So brothers in DEEN are brothers in Islam.  Islam and belief are not totally synonymous.  You can be Muslim and not MU'MIN (believer):

49:14 The desert Arabs say, "We believe." (AAMANNA)Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' (ASLAMNA)

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This seems like a non-punishment! The ayatin are pretty severe, yet the transgressors/pagans get let off with an escort of safety to their own home? No compensation, no re-commitment to the broken treaty/oath, nothing. I assume they get a safety escort because they broke a pledge so there may be some animosity towards them from others, but what happens once they leave their home? Imagining a workable practical example is difficult in my opinion.


Several points here:
1- Islam is not a severe religion.
2- When the Pagans asked for Safety/protection then they are actually stopping the fight.  They are also accepting the authority of the prophet over them.  This is stronger than recommitting to a treatie, because they gave up.
3- They did not necessarily have to have an escort, the word was Ableghhum which means help them reach where they wanted to go.  It could be help with transportation, sending a message to some of their family to pick them up or providing an escort.
4- I expect that if the prophet provided them with safety then the muslims will abide by it.

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I'm glad you pointed this out.
There is no formal "oath of Islam" mentioned in al quran. There is no ceremonial "oath of islam" mentioned in al quran, which they apparently made [9:12]. How would this go?

I used the wrong terms.  I apologise.  However, the way that they communicated that they will follow GOD's way, uphold SALAT and bring about the ZAKAT, was done by some sort of promise or oath to the muslims.

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Only The God knows who is a muslim and who is not

I think that GOD knows who is a believer and who is not.  Islam is more public.  Islam is what people announce whether they are muslim or not (through whatever way they see fit). Again look at 49:14 (mentioned above) and :

49:17 They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.

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If we take into account your extrapolation of "turn (to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam)" (the underlined part not being in the Arabic)* and focus on the only thing mentioned in context which they pledged to uphold/maintain, it only leaves one option... salat.


two points:
1- You omitted the bringing about of ZAKAT  mentioned in 9:5 and 9:11.  This is a major omission.
2- My understanding is from reading the Lisan Alarab and Qamoos Muheet, and it is consistent with the Qur'an.
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3) Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination) from the rest of al quran?


47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom

This is an incident that happened before the 9 chapter.  However, there is no where in the Quran that stops anyone from becoming Muslim.  The generosity or ransom are different but have similar themes to the granting of safety to the one who asks for it.

I did not talk about the escorting.  I talked about helping a person get where he needed to go.  That can happen through  generosity, or through his/her people.

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4) Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation


I have several issues:
1- You opmitted the ZAKAT.  You need to explain it in the light of your undesrstanding.
2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 9:11.  How do you explain that when the Aya 3:19 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.
3- Why would you make another similar deal with the people that broke it the first time?  


I do want to say that your understanding of Salat is beautiful and enriches my understanding of the traditional salat rather than antagonize it.

Salaam again and have a great day


Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 03, 2005, 08:33:54 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

(the "a" on my keyboard is semi-responsive thus please excuse the missing As in my post)

You constantly refer to "Islam" with a capital 'I', thus I assumed you were referring to the religion-meaning of the word, and this religion-mening implies belief.

they must hve belief if they are upholding the prayers (according to you), BUT there is no reference to them as mumins, nothing.

the primry mening of islm is simply a word meaning compliance/submission/surrender/conformance. it shouldn't really have a religious connotation.

Im very familir with 49:14, i love tht sign. It confuses mny a trditionalist.

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Several points here:
1- Islam is not a severe religion.


it can be, when it is clled for. the passge about cutting of alternate limbs comes to mind. just like this pssge, its severe, mking your trnslation seem out of place. imgine if that pssge said cut their limbs from alternate sides... or help/escort them to safety (even if they do not repent/recommit and to live amongst you as u r implying). is it possible? yes. is it likely? no. interestingly, the alternative option given in 5:45 is banishment.

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2- When the Pagans asked for Safety/protection then they are actually stopping the fight.


i agree.

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They are also accepting the authority of the prophet over them.


assumption. they are accepting his authority with respect to helping them to sfety, tht is all. they can still hte him and the system.

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This is stronger than recommitting to a treatie, because they gave up.


no its not. if they recommited to the treaty there would be no problem. they r in compliance. same outcome as apprently 'giving up'. there is no tngible/significnt difference. i could say they give up, but still hate the prophet nd his system and try to undermine it.

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3- They did not necessarily have to have an escort, the word was Ableghhum which means help them reach where they wanted to go. It could be help with transportation, sending a message to some of their family to pick them up or providing an escort.


ok, thanks for clrifying, but this point doesn't change nything though.

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4- I expect that if the prophet provided them with safety then the muslims will abide by it.


thats a big ask. like i said, difficult practical exmple. they disregrd oaths / fight the believers, but get off completely free nd nobody does nothing to them. i am assuming you feel this solution is perfectly feasible practiclly.

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I have several issues:
1- You opmitted the ZAKAT. You need to explain it in the light of your undesrstanding.


i dont see how this chnges nything hence i never mentioned it. ZKW simply mens positive development. (if u wish to choose one word, i like "betterment")

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2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 9:11. How do you explain that when the Aya 3:19 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.


islam simply mens compliance, it is nothing religious, hence 49:14. if i implied otherwise, it ws only because i was using it in the way i thought u were. (just for consistncy)

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3- Why would you make another similar deal with the people that broke it the first time?


its called "giving someone a second chance". all throughout al qurn if we repent/turn and promise not to do it / amend, we are forgiven & given second chnce. same thing here, nothing special. in fact, according to your trns. the God treats us more harshly thn pagans, i.e. they get away with it, escorted to safety, do not recomit/repent and live amongst you. does this even make sense to you?

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49:17 They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.


there is no formal/ceremonial public announcement of islam in entire al qurn. you continue to use the capitl 'I', even though in this sign it clearly causes an error. it cannot be "YOUR Islam".

-------

Brother hussein, lets break it down to the crux of the argument:

for your argument to hold, you need the one word 'twb/turn/repent' to extrapolate into "turn to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam" in some sort of formal public announcement, like an oath of conversion, even though...

*no part of the pagans are referenced as believers
*this option (i.e. 'you'll be forgiven if you convert') is never given in the rest of al quran
*the oath that they broke is never explicitly divulged as anything other than treaty based
*the passage/condemnation is severe, but fight against them suddenly turns into help them to safety and do nothing to them for nothing in return
*the solution according to you, to work practically is dificult to imgine
*slw has been proven in Classicl Arbic dictionries to hve an alternative mening (i.e. other thn pryer) which fits the context perfectly, and this alterntive  mening does not contradict one ayat in over 68 occurrences of slw (i.e. all of them)
*the alternative meaning is perfectly consistent and has none of the above weaknesses

Is there any pre-established belief holding you back from seeing this objectively...

?

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I do want to say that your understanding of Salat is beautiful and enriches my understanding of the traditional salat rather than antagonize it.


Thanks. it took me long enough...

God bless.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 03, 2005, 12:32:01 PM
Salaam Wakas and thanks for your response,

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You constantly refer to "Islam" with a capital 'I', thus I assumed you were referring to the religion-meaning of the word, and this religion-mening implies belief.

In Arabic, there is no capital or small letters.  From now on I will use AL ISLAM, THE ISLAM when it is mentioned in the relevant Ayat to decrease the confusion.
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*no part of the pagans are referenced as believers

This is probably the crux of our disagreement and relates to this:
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they must hve belief if they are upholding the prayers (according to you), BUT there is no reference to them as mumins, nothing.

Please refer me to where I said that they have to be MUMINS.  In fact I believe that you have to be MUSLIM to uphold SALAT, whether MUMIN or not.
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22:78 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular AL SALAT, give regular AL ZAKAT, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Note how the words AL SALAT and AL ZAKAT after the word Mulsimoon.

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i dont see how this chnges nything hence i never mentioned it. ZKW simply mens positive development. (if u wish to choose one word, i like "betterment")


Because the word was AL ZAKAT and not just betterment.  Also because it was demanded of them to bring it about.  Third AL ZAKAT was asked only of the Muslims or the MUMINS.

You suggest that a pagan can bring about AL ZAKAT.  Please support this position from the Qur'an.

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Quote:
               2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 9:11. How do you explain that             when the Aya 3:19 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.


islam simply mens compliance, it is nothing religious, hence 49:14. if i implied otherwise, it ws only because i was using it in the way i thought u were. (just for consistncy)

Except that 3:19 say THE DEEN at the GOD is THE ISLAM.  Therefore one Deen and one Islam and not any compliance, as you suggest.

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*the passage/condemnation is severe, but fight against them suddenly turns into help them to safety and do nothing to them for nothing in return

The muslims could have killed them. that is severe enough.  The ones that ask safety, stopped the fight.

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*the alternative meaning is perfectly consistent and has none of the above weaknesses

The biggest weakness in your argument is that it ignores AL ZAKAT and not any ZAKAT.  AL ZAKAT in all the other AYAT is asked of MUSLIMS or MUMINS and never asked of pagans.  If you can bring an AYA that asks pagan to bring about AL ZAKAT, you will be more convincing.

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Is there any pre-established belief holding you back from seeing this objectively...

I find it very difficult to believe  that the prophet himself performed AL SALAT with thousands of Muslims and That the SHIA, SUNNIS and IBADHIS (which were divided early in the history of ISLAM) agree on the Standing, Bowing and prostrating of the SALAT.  That all of that was wrong.  The disagreements between these groups were deep yet never deep in the SALAT.

How can you explain that they are all wrong?
I told you about my bias.  Tell me yours, in order to be fair.

Salaam Wakas and have a good evening

Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 03, 2005, 01:29:59 PM
Salaam Hussein,

Quote from: "hlatif"
In fact I believe that you have to be MUSLIM to uphold SALAT, whether MUMIN or not.


Please divulge the proof by which you adhere to this understanding. As I have seen it said that salaat is observed by almumin [4:162, 5:55]. Clearly it is decreed by Allah for almumin [4:103]. So I'm wondering how you arrive at your stance.

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 03, 2005, 01:32:11 PM
Salaam,

Quote from: "hlatif"
Note how the words AL SALAT and AL ZAKAT after the word Mulsimoon.


Almumin are at their core muslimeen. Salaat has clearly been prescribed in alquran for the mumin. I want to know if there is a prescription therein for muslimeen as well.

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 03, 2005, 02:30:15 PM
Thanks Joe for your question,

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Please divulge the proof by which you adhere to this understanding. As I have seen it said that salaat is observed by almumin [4:162, 5:55]. Clearly it is decreed by Allah for almumin [4:103]. So I'm wondering how you arrive at your stance.

None of those Ayat are exclusive of Mumins only.  Therefore, you are making an assumption.  The AYAT talk about Mumins performing Al SALAT.  They don't say that if you were Muslim and not Mumin, then you cannot perform AL SALAT.

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Almumin are at their core muslimeen. Salaat has clearly been prescribed in alquran for the mumin. I want to know if there is a prescription therein for muslimeen as well.

I am not certain that I uderstand this point.  You may be asking that I should present that AL SALAT is asked of the MUSLIMS.  If so then here is an example

6:71 Say: "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-
6:72 "And establish regular prayers (AL SALAT) and to fear Allah: for it is to Him that we shall be gathered together."

You can see that ALSALATA came after the Submission and there was no word for IMAN in those two AYAT, and not even nearby.

I hope that I am answering your question.  Take care and have a good evening.

Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 04, 2005, 04:12:07 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

all mumineen are also muslimeen BUT all muslimeen are not mumineen. mumin is higher than muslim. first muslim, then become mumin [49:14]

you are the one saying they are upholding the prayer, thus clerly, one must believe in something to pray to something, thus they are believers. thus they can be referenced as believers/mumineen but this is never done. that is my point.

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You suggest that a pagan can bring about AL ZAKAT. Please support this position from the Qur'an.


technically speaking, pagans dont have to do anything. there is no compulsion in the system/obligation, of course, its better for them if they did bring forth the zkw (like it is for anyone).
HOWEVER, IF they are under a treaty with the believers (as in this example) then they are bound by certin things, things likely to be involved in the obligation/system of the believers, thus they can uphold the slw (link) and bring forth zkw (betterment). simple.

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The biggest weakness in your argument is that it ignores AL ZAKAT and not any ZAKAT. AL ZAKAT in all the other AYAT is asked of MUSLIMS or MUMINS and never asked of pagans. If you can bring an AYA that asks pagan to bring about AL ZAKAT, you will be more convincing.


How about 7:156 or 19:55? If not, how about this...

Say: "I am no more than a human being like you, who is being inspired that your god is one god, therefore you shall be upright towards Him and ask His forgiveness. And woe to those who set up partners. [41:6]

"Those who do not bring the zakat, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers" [41:7]

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Except that 3:19 say THE DEEN at the GOD is THE ISLAM. Therefore one Deen and one Islam and not any compliance, as you suggest.


Of course its not any compliance. i could comply to evil laws/rules/dictators etc. It is THE compliance, the ever-present, the compliance/program within us, that is manifest in every single human being on this planet. every single society in this world knows the difference between good & bad. these universal principles are present in every nation. see the beautiful sign of 30:30 as an example. for those wishing to develop, they can adhere to specifics, and perhaps attain the status of mumin. changing the trans. to "THE compliance" makes no difference. besides the context often gives it away.

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I find it very difficult to believe that the prophet himself performed AL SALAT with thousands of Muslims and That the SHIA, SUNNIS and IBADHIS (which were divided early in the history of ISLAM) agree on the Standing, Bowing and prostrating of the SALAT. That all of that was wrong. The disagreements between these groups were deep yet never deep in the SALAT.


As far as im aware, they do not perform prayer in exactly the sme way. my view of slw has MANY resemblances to the traditional method but is not equal to it. I can clerly see how it became corrupted and formalised. even the traditional so-clled sahih hadith attest to the fact that slw was chnging from the prophet's time:

Quote
Volume 1, Book 10, Number 507:

    Narrated Ghailan:

    Anas said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was.)" Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done?

    Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."


furthermore, the devestating blow to the traditional method is that the traditional hdith themselves contradict ech other in the method. the only way to gain a coherent unified method is to pick & choose. this is fact. please see:
http://members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htm

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How can you explain that they are all wrong?


like i said, there are many similarities between my understanding (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm) and the traditional one.
bro, ~ 1.6 billion christians think Jesus is God or son of God. numbers dont matter one bit. al quran testifies to this. why do u think it says these things? why do u think it says the messenger will declare his people have deserted this quran? the traditionalist view is full of contradictions, not only on salat, but on many things. they truly are lost in mass ignorance and have been conditioned to blindly accept almost anything because loads of things are confusing. the extremists prevailed in formalising something that ws never meant to be strictly formalised. look at the mass splintering after the prophet's death... its crazy. how do you stop mass splintering? formalise it. make it rigid. make it compulsory etc.

if we never knew of traditional hadith, we would never think slw=prayer.

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I told you about my bias. Tell me yours, in order to be fair.


thank you for sharing. I understand completely where you are coming from, as i also came from the same place. I also have that bias. I find it hard to accept, just like you, that The God's system became severely corrupted after the prophet's death. Even though numerous examples in al quran tells me its possible and in fact very likely, based on its historic examples, and it repeatedly telling me most are misguided, the prophet declaring his people have deserted this quran, the proof of the pudding by observing tody's Islam etc.. I try to imgine what happened, nd think bout it often. its hard to picture. Do you know why I find it hard to accept? It is because im weak, plain & simple. Ever since my study of al quran began at ~16, there has been many many times in which i have been forced to submit to its teachings. i wouldn't even call it a choice, i was forced to. no-one said it would be easy. al quran didn't say it would be easy. tests usually aren't easy. was it difficult to accept? yes. did i accept it? yes.

I strive to eliminate my bias, thts the best I can do.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: born_again on April 04, 2005, 10:37:16 AM
Salaam

I wouldn?t want to interrupt your informative discussion but I have some questions to brother Hlatif too.

1.  We know that Prophet Mohammad didn?t allow writing hadiths. For one minute imagine that you don?t know any hadiths. How would you pray? Would you even know that you have to face a qibla when praying?
2.  If the prophet performed the salat where did he get the details? Was he following other books than Quran? Why did he call Allah akbar?
3.  Why is there not any clue for the prayer we perform in the Quran? (No adhan; no sajda, ruku and salat together in a verse; no verse ordaining us to perform sajda and ruku when praying or in some specific times of the day just an ordain to recite the Quran?)
4.  The Quran tells us that those who believe in Allah and do good will enter heaven.

02:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

05:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

64:09 The day will come when He summons you to the Day of Summoning. That is the Day of Mutual Blaming. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will remit his sins, and will admit him into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. This is the greatest triumph. [/i][/color]

Those who believe in Allah will enter heaven. Muslims must pray five / three times a day while christians and jews don?t? Isn?t this unjust?

33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.[/i][/color]

Why isn?t salat included in this ayat?

Thanks and have a nice day...
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 04, 2005, 10:45:21 AM
Salaam Wakas,

I thank you for you very well written post and for sharing your thoughts with me.  As I think about this discussion, it occurred to me that we may be assuming that each other thinks exactly the same about the key words here islam, iman and belief.  We may be mistaken and therefore, this time, I will start with my definition of each of the terms:

Islam: This is what I wrote in a previous post
One that delivers No Harm, and One that delivers his direction to GOD, and his accpetance to GOD, in peace.  Part of this may include the SALAT, the ZAKAT etc

Iman: Trust in GOD and feeling safe in GOD

As you may notice there is no belief in my definitions.  That is because belief is relative.  When a person reaches a certain degree of belief (which varies) they may decide to follow Islam (which is an act and a decision).  When the belief reaches a higher degree then they trust and feel safe in GOD (mumins, which is a feeling, yet when tested, it shows strongly).

Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them:

I say: when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.

You say: They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.

It could be that we are looking at the same thing from different angles.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts on the traditional prayers.  The three muslim groups are closer in their prayer practices than the people at Free minds.  There is a core that they accept:
1- They pray 3-5 times.  The Shia pray three times because they combine the two other prayers.  Something that the sunnis do at times.
2- The Ibadhis do not do Qunut, which is non essential.
3- The three do Stand and then bow and then prostrate (the core of traditional SALAT in my view).
4- Some put their hands on their stomach and others not.  This is very minor.
5- Other religions have the same patterns, christian kneeling, jewish bowing, buddhist prostrating.  This suggests to some that Idolation is rampant.  What about that this is somehting close to the core original truth.

I do appreciate this great learning opportunity with you and I hope that you have a wonderful week.


Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 04, 2005, 12:36:40 PM
Salaam brother born again,

Thank you for your question.  It is very helpful and very thought provoking.

Quote
1. We know that Prophet Mohammad didn?t allow writing hadiths. For one minute imagine that you don?t know any hadiths. How would you pray? Would you even know that you have to face a qibla when praying?

Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira.  This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him.  Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him.  The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on.  So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.
Quote
2. If the prophet performed the salat where did he get the details? Was he following other books than Quran? Why did he call Allah akbar?

The prophet did perform the Salat:

4:102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
So here is an order for the prophet to lead the SALAT, Standing and Sujood, all in one Ayah.  They indicate that this was part of the Salat.

I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him.  GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.

Quote
3. Why is there not any clue for the prayer we perform in the Quran? (No adhan; no sajda, ruku and salat together in a verse; no verse ordaining us to perform sajda and ruku when praying or in some specific times of the day just an ordain to recite the Quran?)

The above Aya 4:102 puts Sujood in the SALAT clearly.
Aya 2:125 puts the RUKOO and SUJOOD together.  Then you can connect them together.

If you want to do Salat without Rukoo and Sujood, then go for it.  You probably would be advised to do Sujood at some time and Rukoo at another since they were all mentioned in a good light.  Putting the Sujood and Rukoo in the Salat makes it easier and more efficient.  The Adhan was mentioned in the HAJJ.  It is just a way to announce the Salat and makes good logic.
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4. The Quran tells us that those who believe in Allah and do good will enter heaven.

The Salat is part of the good things that you do.  It reminds you of your need to be humble in front of GOD, and in front of man.  This is a key ingredient of doing good.  There are many Ayat that clearly indicate the importance of SALAT.  I am certain that you are aware of them.

Each person has to do what he or she honestly believes is needed.  In the end, it is GOD that decides who goes to heaven or hell, and definitely, not me.

I hope that I was of help to you.  You have a good day


Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Someone on April 04, 2005, 02:48:29 PM
Peace all,

Just an observation to consider, not part of this study.

In some budhist or christian rites, there are people who completely lay on their belly to show their prostration and submissiveness to their god(s). Are they more submissive than the ones only making a "rokou" or "soujoud" in the commonly known fashion?

Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?

--
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: PRIEST_BOKMEI on April 04, 2005, 03:08:06 PM
PEACE HUSSEIN

Please don't take the following comments as criticism of you; it is given as dawah.

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I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him. GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.


If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen?  We, given ayat 7:33, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion.  If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--17:36.

7:33. Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed made forbidden/haram are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

17:36 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.

Main Entry: OPINION: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.

Main Entry: IMPRESSION: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.

Main Entry: POSITIVE: not speculative: incontestable: independent of changing circumstances.

Main Entry: KNOW :be convinced or certain of.

Main Entry: CERTAIN: known or proved to be true : indisputable, dependable, reliable.

Main Entry: KNOWLEDGE: the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.

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Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira. This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him. Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him. The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on. So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.


My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer?  You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?

Main Entry: WITNESS: one who has personal knowledge of something.

Main Entry: PERSONAL: done in person without the intervention of another.

Main Entry: CONJECTURE: supposition: inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.

6:116 If you were to follow/obey most of those on earth, they would misguide you from Allah's Way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing.

10:36 Most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Conjecture is of no use whatsoever against the truth. Allah most certainly knows what they are doing.

Given the above ayats and definitions then, you have no knowldege of what the Prophet did or said as you were not a witness, hence, to do the so-called ritual prayer or promote it or accept its being done, is to follow conjecture.

The only truth/knowledge we have about what the Prophet said or did is stated in Al-Quran.

4:166 But Allah bears witness to what He has sent down to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge. The angels bear witness as well. And Allah suffices as a Witness.

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The Salat is part of the good things that you do.


For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.  

18:103. Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

18:104. "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

18:105. They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.

18:110. Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

To follow the Sunnah, Hadiths or both, is giving Allah a partner...Muhammad, and the hadith compilers.

Looking forward to your reply.
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 04, 2005, 09:27:44 PM
Salaam priest Bomkei,

Thanks for your thought provoking post.

Quote
If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen? We, given ayat 7:33, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion. If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--17:36.

I have shown that the prophet prayed.  There are many Ayat that ask the people who are muslims and mumins to perform SALAT.  GOD saw the way the prophet prayed and did not criticise it.  This is an approval for me.

Quote
My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer? You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?


Those same questions can apply to you.  We never know for certitude.  Do you truly and honestly believe that it did not occur?  Don't you think that you, like me are following your own suspicions? except that our suspicions are different.

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For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.

Well, I did present an Aya that asked the prophet to perform Salat and it had in it Sujood.  I also presented another AYA that puts Rukoo and Sujood together.  You ignored them.  I am familiar with the people that claim that Sujood is submission.  To me they are not convinving.
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18:104. "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

This is an Aya for all of us to remember.  We all can fall in it.  May GOD protect us from it.  

Someone said:
Quote
Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?

Each one will have to arrive at what suits him or her.  I know that mocking is not the method that was prescribed.  Thank you for your contribution though.

With this, I am going to stop posting on this subject, at least for now.  This is mostly because of work, also to help all of us to reflect on what each of us had written.  Take care all and have a great week.

Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Someone on April 05, 2005, 01:51:53 AM
Peace upon you hlatif,

The tone of my question seems "mocking" indeed, I apologize for it, no harm was intended, it's only a way to enable some more thinking.

And thank you for not responding in the same "tone" as me. I ask the god to forgive me and to show us the way.

--
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 05, 2005, 07:25:41 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Quote from: "Wakas"
the primry mening of islm is simply a word meaning compliance/submission/surrender/conformance. it shouldn't really have a religious connotation.


I repeat myself:

the primary meaning of islm is complince etc. the word has nothing inherently to do with God. if it had an inherent implication of god then there would be no need to mention "compliance to... insert object here (e.g. The God)" as it does in many places in al quran. i know brother Anwar, who is well knowledgble of Clssicl Arabic has wrote many pages about this point.

how about some clear undisputble examples of common usage...

48:16, 27:31, 27:38


dont get me wrong, its secondary meaning can be islam, as in our system/obligation, fine, but dont mke out Islam/Muslim should have a capital or the God is inherently implied whenever this word is used. thats wrong in my opinion. Names mean nothing. Other prophets did not use Arbic, thus they obviously never used "Islam or Muslim", thus if they used the word (I'll make one up) "phareps" you think it would be right to attach a special capital to this word and associate the God with its usge and make out its somehow special. the word by itself is not special, the meaning is what is important.

same with iman, it just means faith/belief/conviction etc., nothing inherently to do with God. see the following common usage 2:13, 2:285, 7:76, 10:51, 10:83, 10:90

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Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them:

I say: when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.

You say: They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.


No, I do not say that, al quran says that. it treats them as if they are still pagans, on the other hand, you are the one who extrapolates "twb/turn/repent" into "turn to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam in a public/formal declaration" and have belief like believers and make prayer like we do so you may be forgiven, if not, take the other option of: we will help you to safety with no apology, no re-commitment, no compensation, nothing in return and you can live amongst us quite happily whilst no one can harm you in any way.

I guess you feel that is the most likely trans. Fair enough.

Our discussion was interesting, and if I may say so, you showed excellent manner/character, an example of how it should be done. Thanks for that.

Bro, the way i see it, at some point in all our lives, we all come to a cross-roads, when we get to the decision-point, we have to make the choice, which direction to take, will we return on the path already trodden simply because we are familiar with it, or will we have the strength/conviction to let our inner compass guide us to the truth? all i can say is follow your heart, just like i do. the heart does not lie, surely, it is the best guide since the God has told us that He has set within us all an inner compass of truth. [30:30]

at the end of the day, I disagree with your opinion but i accept your right to have such an opinion, and i still regard you as a brother.


God bless.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: born_again on April 05, 2005, 10:36:40 PM
Peace be upon you Hlatif

4:102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

Just a few points considering your and traditional translation of the verse for you to ponder on.

1.  This is the ONLY verse that has ?sujood? and ?salat? in it. But where?s the rukou? Isn?t it an integral part of the salat, too?
2.  There?s no command to RECITE REVELATIONS? They are just going to perform sujood then what?
3.  Why are people who will perform sujoud take their guns with them? The ayat suggests that they can put away their guns because of the inconvenience of rain (injuries from rain literally isnt it?). This means that they can not put away their guns in other circumstances. I don?t see how anybody can perform sujoud and rukou with a gun in his hand and besides logically, the ones who must carry the gun should be in the front of the praying group so they can protect them but in the ayat we can see that those who will perform prayer goes to front and takes their gun with them. Are you sure they are praying?

Take care and have a nice day...
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 12, 2005, 06:12:59 AM
peace be upon you Hussein, all,

Further evidence of my maqam/position came to mind...

I feel you extrapolated 'twb' to 'convert', and in this specific example its used for Pagans converting to muslims/believers/adherents of Islam (or whatever you feel they converted to). I believe we tried the logic via context route, but there is another route we didn't venture down to find out if this is an extrapolation or not, and that route is how al quran itself uses the root twb.

The root twb is used about 90 times in al quran, thus my question is:

how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?


Wakas

References
Concordance of Quran (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520043278/bridgebooks/002-0832109-7120832)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extrapolate
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 12, 2005, 07:07:37 AM
Salaam Wakas,

Quote
how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?


It is actually not a matter of number.  All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.  Some of them have GOD mentioned, others are followed by Iman and so forth.

This one does not have all the other associations, yet it clearly talks about the followers of the prophet.

11:112 Therefore stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (Taba maaaka); and transgress not (from the Path): for He seeth well all that ye do.

Salaam and good bye.

Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2005, 07:25:38 AM
Salaam Hussein,

I'm hoping that's not your evidence for a conversion theme? It clearly talks about the followers of the rasool and the rasool himself mind you "as also those who turn with thee" [11:112].

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2005, 07:44:05 AM
Salaam Hussein,

Quote from: "hlatif"
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.


Does God turn/convert to the people [5:71, 9:117] "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 12, 2005, 08:00:46 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Quote
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.


The word simply means turn/repent. The word itself has no inherent association with The God, that is why al quran often mentions The God in the context. Just like the words islam/muslim/iman have no inherent association with The God. The word just means turn/repent, and like in English, neither of those words has an inherent association with The God.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=repent
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=turn

e.g. are you implying, for example, a thief must convert in order to be forgiven? [5:39]

I can find many examples where it cannot mean "convert". This isn't even one of its dictionary meanings. In fact, even the dictionary meanings do not state the word has an inherent association with The God.

Can you find equivalent examples, where it is clearly used in the manner you suggested?

As brother Joe pointed out, I do not regard 11:112 as an example.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hlatif on April 12, 2005, 08:01:07 AM
Salaam Joe and Wakas,

This will be my last post on Free-minds.  However, i am happy to answer your questions at this point and with this I am saying good bye to all of you.

Joe said:
Quote
I'm hoping that's not your evidence for a conversion theme? It clearly talks about the followers of the rasool and the rasool himself mind you "as also those who turn with thee" [11:112].

They all turned to GOD and they all converted to Islam, including the prophet.  When you turn to GOD, you are a muslim in many ways because you are also submitting to GOD.

Joe said:
Quote
Does God turn/convert to the people [5:71, 9:117] "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?

When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.

Brother Wakas, for fairness sake, why don't you present one
incident in the Qur'an where T-W-B root was mentioned and the one to turn to was other than GOD.  If you did in clear manner then you will prove your case.

Salaam all.  I have learnt a lot from all of the people here.  I will leave you all in peace.


Hussein
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: natu on April 12, 2005, 09:34:08 AM
Quote
This will be my last post on Free-minds. However, i am happy to answer your questions at this point and with this I am saying good bye to all of you.


Where u going man! we're gonna miss u in the salat section!

Bruv, Please reconsider.[/quote]
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: born_again on April 12, 2005, 09:37:47 AM
YEAH DON'T GO BROTHER HUSSEIN. AT LEAST POST AT THE OTHER THREADS PLEASE RECONSIDER :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(  :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 12, 2005, 12:20:56 PM
Salaam Hussein,

Quote from: "hlatif"
When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.


I do not understand the point of repeating what is already there. The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - [9:117]. Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TAJ on April 12, 2005, 11:44:39 PM
Salaams All,


 Hussein, why are you leaving? Maybe you won't even look at the posts now to answer this question. :(

Joe, you wrote:
Quote
The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - [9:117]. Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.

'Taba' is used twice in  the Ayah[9:117] and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.

p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!

Taj
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 13, 2005, 12:35:34 AM
peace be upon you Hussein,

Sorry to hear you're leaving. And if that was your last post, then I see little point in responding if there will be no response. In any case...

Your view that when people twb, its always to The God is questionable. There is no inherent asociation of the word with God, if there was, why mention God in the context. Also, that means according to you every thief must turn to God (i.e. convert?), in order to be forgiven [5:38-39]. I assume therefore, you feel there can there be no disbelieving thieves? There is no compulsion in the system/obligation, no forced conversions etc. You are basically saying the thieves, or those who wage war against the God and his messenger [5:33-34] they are threatened with punishments, severe ones in 5:33-34, but if they convert, then they are forgiven. I personlly have not encountered this notion in the entire reading, in fact I think its contradictory to it [e.g. 2:256].

For sake of argument, lets say every time twb is used, its always to The God (which I agree is the majority usage, simply because when people use it, it means repent, and most of the time its repenting to The God), even if that is the case, my point still stands:

According to you, there is a clear conversion (pagans to muslims etc.) in 9:5, 9:11. My question is, quite simply, out of the other 90 root occurrences, please give us examples where it is also used to signify a clear conversion like you are suggesting for 9:5, 9:11. If you present none, I will assume you feel 11:112 is the best (&only?) example out of the 90.

Quote from: "Taj"
p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!


Perhaps you can share your thoughts upon the thread once you have looked at it, especially if you feel it applies to you.


God bless.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 13, 2005, 02:36:53 AM
Taken from Concordance of Quran (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520043278/bridgebooks/002-0832109-7120832):

Ta-Waw-Ba

taba vb. (I) ~ repent, to be penitent, to do penance; (with prep. ala) to turn towrds someone (in forgiveness); (with prep. ila) to turn towrds someone (in penance). (n. vb.) repentnce, penitance. (pcple. act.) one who repents, penitent.

There is no such preposition in 9:5, 9:11. Thus "to" is not implied.

There are examples of specific usage of twb ila/to God [e.g. 66:4], thus al quran could have easily mentioned it in 9:5, 9:11, instead of making us assume thats what was meant, if that was what was meant.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 15, 2005, 09:31:17 AM
peace All,

I have PM'd Edip Yuksel asking for a response to this thread. If he does not reply, please remind me to PM him again. I understand he's busy, so I dont mind if he takes a few months to respond. I might forget by then, hence this post.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: TheNabi on April 24, 2005, 10:51:10 PM
Salaam,

Quote from: "TAJ"
'Taba' is used twice in the Ayah[9:117] and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.


Thank you for the correction.

Joe
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on May 03, 2005, 12:54:03 PM
Salaamun alaikum all,

Ayat 11:113 (pm translation) mentions about those who repented with prophet Muhammad:

11:113 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.

This repentance is the repentance of someone who is already a believer (mumin) and cannot mean conversion to Islam. There are other ayat in Al-Quran that talk about this kind of repentance:

2:187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you.
9:114 Those who repent, those who serve, those who thank, those who wander in devotion, those who kneel, those who prostrate, those who order good and deter from evil, and those who keep the boundaries of God. And give good news to the believers.
13:32 And as such, We have sent you to a nation as other nations that have come before, so that you may recite for them that which has been inspired to you; while they are still rejecting the Almighty. Say: "He is my Lord, there is no god but He, in Him I place my trust and to Him is my repentance."
24:32 And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
42:9 And anything you dispute in, then its judgment shall be with God. Such is God my Lord. In Him I put my trust, and to Him I repent.
66:9 O you who believe, you shall repent to God a sincere repentance.

The above ayat are proof that someone who is already a believer including a prophet can repent to God. Prophet Muhammad and his companion believers were all human and can make a mistake and the repentance is prescribed by Allah for such an occasion:

4:18 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So a believer can make a mistake and then repent soon after and Allah forgives. Thus it is clear that the repentance mentioned in 11:113 cannot mean conversion to Islam as brother Hlatif implies.

There is clearly no compulsion in religion:

2:256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower

After careful consideration of all the above and the fact that ayat 9:2 to 9:13 are about the pagans who broke the treaty and their oath, the most likely meaning of 9:6 would be that if these pagans repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold their bond (the treaty) again thereby contributing towards betterment, then they are to be left alone. This would be a very good example of how al-salat does not meen the timed prayer of the mumin and al-zakat does not mean giving charity.

A DIFFERENT ANGLE:

However, brother Wakas, I would like to add another angle to this discussion and I would like to have your opinion on this. Until ayat 9:4 the pagans have not broken their treaty. 9:4 mentions about repenting and IMO this is repenting from setting up partners with Allah:

9:4 And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people, on this, the peak day of the Pilgrimage: "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.

The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words. When one repents from setting up partners it is obvious that one starts accepting one God thereby becoming a muslim. So the above repentance "could" mean conversion to Al-Islam.

Now is it possible that in ayat 9:6 Allah is talking about the same repentance?, that is, the repentance from setting up partners and not the repentance from breaking the treaty. If that is so then 9:6 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers. This meaning would then be reinforced by 9:12 which talks about the same repentance and upholding salat and bringing forth zakat making them brothers in deen. Brothers in deen at least means being muslim as Allah has chosen Al-Islam as deen.

This would not contradict with 2:256 because the pagans are not being forced to become muslims. They have an alternative option of surrendering and giving up and seeking the protection of the believers as per 9:7. IMO the protection is CONDITIONAL and the pagans sanctuary is either within the community of the believers or in the community of the pagans as long as they can easily hear the Word of Allah:

9:7 And if any of those who have set up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know

This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies because it is conditional on them being able to hear the Words of Allah. Also IMO that would automatically imply having another treaty with them after they surrendered and the protection was given to them. So the pagans have 2 options after breaking their treaty: they can either repent and become believers or they can give up and seek protection of the believers which will be given to them as long as they can hear the Words of Allah. They do not have the compulsion of accepting the Words, but they will have to make another treaty with the believers.

2 MORE POINTS:

1. If we translate 9:6 meaning that if the pagans repent from breaking the treaty and uphold the bond (the treaty) thereby contributing to the betterment then leave them alone, then this meaning would make 9:7 redundant. If they are upholding the treaty again then obviously they are protected by the believers. Why give them an option of seeking protection and going back to their sanctuary again in 9:7 ?

2. In the beginning of chapter 9 when Allah is talking about the pagans who made a treaty with the believers, He does not call them brothers in deen with the believers. However in 9:12 according to brother Wakas's interpretation the pagans have not converted to muslims and all they did was repent from breaking the treaty and uphold it again, so what is different this time that Allah calls them brothers in deen for doing that?

Peace,

Tanveer
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on May 03, 2005, 03:53:02 PM
peace Br. Tanveer, all,

Quote
Until ayat 9:4 the pagans have not broken their treaty.


Strictly speaking yes, but this is clearly implied. The very first word of the chapter tees up the subsequent signs in this direction:

baratun = acquittal/absolve

Furthermore, in 9:4 it states:

PM: Except (illa) for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you...

Thus directly implying the reference of the prior sign(s) is those who reduced from the treaty or planned to attack you.

Quote
The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words.


That in no way can be called clear. Why cant it simply be about making a public announcement that we are innocent from them, i.e. they broke the treaty, they are to blame.

Quote
If that is so then 9:6 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers.


For that opinion to hold, you are forced to insert a lot of interpretation into the signs. Please remember they are not referenced as anything other than transgressors/idolaters etc.

Quote
This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies


I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.

Quote
they can either repent and become believers


Just like when the thief commits a crime, they repent, nothing to do with conversion. Same as this case. When al quran wishes to point out its twb/repentance to The God, the word "ila" is used, there is no "ila" here, nor in the thief example.

Quote
2 MORE POINTS:


1 - why do you think 9:5 has the clause "if"? The subsequent sign allows for the situation when not everyone accepts the condition.

2 - the next sign, 9:12 proves they are not brothers in terms of Muslims or believers or in terms of conversion because it states "And if they  break their oaths after making them..." Its clear the signs have been referencing "they" with trangressors/idolaters throughout, especially the previous signs prior to 9:11. If they have converted, why are they still being held to account for their oaths? What is going on? What oaths? Is there a word in the previous sign, 9:11, that can   be connected with a oath/bond/link? Yes! That word is slw.

In fact, based on this new observation, I think the above signs conclusively prove that they are not converts! Beyond reasonable doubt!

Its further reinforced with "uphold the slw... brothers in deen/obligation/system" and then says "break their oaths... denounce the authority of your deen/obligation/system".


Anyone else agree with this observation?


Wakas

As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on May 03, 2005, 05:08:59 PM
Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,

Thank you for your explanations, and answers to my questions and points. I think you have conclusively proved your position.

Quote
Quote
This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies


I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.


I apologize for the above. It was a misunderstanding on my part.

Quote
As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.


By Al-Islam I meant The Islam which is submission or surrender to Allah and not just a regular islam meaning submission or surrender which could be to anyone. Maybe I should write islam lillah. That is why I capitalized it to distinguish islam lillah from islam.

Regards,

Tanveer
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on May 04, 2005, 05:36:29 AM
peace Br. Tanveer,

About Al-Islam, I knew what you meant. I was just making an observation. Your response about differentiating any old islam/compliance from Al-Islam is a valid one. Its unlikely though, for someone to use islam in any other way, in fact, thats how it probably got its title.

The way I see it... Muslims with a capital M, implies the primary signification is the title, whilst a muslim, with small m, implies the primary signification is the mindset/description. Same with Islam and islam.

God bless.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on May 17, 2005, 03:20:26 PM
peace be upon you all,

Based on this thread, the following article was written:

Disproved once and for all: salat = prayer (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm)

It covers many other significant points not brought up in this thread.

All feedback is welcome.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Fahad on June 05, 2005, 07:09:02 AM
peace Wakas .

Quote from: "Wakas"

So you think 'al quran' changes its reference and now wishes them to repent from idolatry rather than the object of reference: the treaty?


they are repenting from both idolatry and from breakng the treaty . as muslims they are not going to fight against muslims ,right ?

Quote
You think the word twb can somehow imply 'repent & convert' even though this meaning is nowhere to be found in a classical Arabic dictionary nor in the 87 occurrences of 'al quran'?


the usage of 'repent' alongwith 'salat' and 'zakat'  indicates that they 'converted' .

Quote
You think 'al quran' actually gives an ultimatum in which people either convert or are punished? And not only that, according to your explanation it doesn't even mention it, just implies it, like its no big deal when this strikes at the very core of the deen!


idolators were going to be killed . it should be considered a mercy from God that their life will be spared and they will be set free if they repent and establish salat and give 'zakat' .

Quote
You think the suffix "...hum" somehow miraculously refers to the new converts not mentioned in the context, even though you have not provided one example from the entire quran in which this happens.


it is still refering to the same people .

Quote
You think its a mere coincidence the so-called converts are never referenced with a word which would prove they are converts, e.g. mumineen/believers.


their establishing salat and zakat makes it crystal clear that they are no longer idolators . isnt  that enough ? by the way they are also called our brothers in 'Deen' . what do u think ?

Quote
Do you think thieves also convert [5:38-39] or is it just this special case?


no . the thieves are not commanded to establish salat and give 'zakat'.

Quote
How do you explain the problem of 9:12? progressing options etc.


what about 9:12 ?

that is what i think  .

by the way, u say that 'salat' means 'bond' or 'oath' . what exactly do u mean by that . what bond ? i dont get it . please tell me.
peace.
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on June 05, 2005, 10:03:46 AM
peace Saladin,

Lets run through it point by point...

Quote
they are repenting from both idolatry and from breakng the treaty .


So, even though the object of reference is the treaty in the context before & after 9:3, you think an additional repentance from shirk is being made here. Unlikely (lets see how many unlikely situations have to arise for your interpretation to hold).
The reason why the word 'mushrikeen' is used in 9:3 is those people are with whom the treaty was made (it has to make reference to them!), not because it is wanting to use this as an object of reference for the word taboo/repent. The following sign 9:4 proves beyond doubt the object of reference is the treaty because it uses the word 'illa/except'. Proving the previous sign is on about 'those who reduced from the treaty'. If you disregard this, you are following the least likely interpretation.

Quote
as muslims they are not going to fight against muslims ,right ?


Please tell me I have misunderstood you. Are you saying the repent/taboo in 9:3 is implying conversion to muslims? This is not supported by the context whatsoever.


Quote
the usage of 'repent' alongwith 'salat' and 'zakat' indicates that they 'converted' .


Ahh, so you're saying 'taboo' does indeed mean 'repent' but the implication of conversion is made by the usage of slw & zkw. Well, at least you're consistent with the word 'taboo'. Firstly, the implication of conversion just by using the words slw & zkw and not mentioning the actual conversion, would come as an absolute shock to the student of the scripture. According to you, 'al quran' treats this conversion as if its nothing and simply implies it and does not mention it directly even though it has huge implications for the whole deen. Unlikely. Can you provide another similar example in which the guilty are required to convert to Islam to escape punishment in the entire quran? Just give me one, thats all I want. If you cant, this means your interpretation is unlikely.

Quote
idolators were going to be killed . it should be considered a mercy from God that their life will be spared and they will be set free if they repent and establish salat and give 'zakat' .


They were not necessarily going to be killed, please see 9:6, so this is a non-point.

Quote
it is still refering to the same people .


I'm glad you said this. I agree: the suffix "hum" refers to the same people. That is fine for my understanding but if you also take this view, your view gets completely and utterly demolished. If you believe "hum" refers to the same people, then in your view 'al quran' contains a contradiction/error. Lets translate it according to your interpretation, and leave the people of reference in, according to the "hum"...

So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the idolaters wherever you find the idolaters, and take the idolaters, and surround the idolaters, and stand against the idolaters at every point. If the idolaters repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate the idolater's way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.

BEFORE and AFTER slw & zkw are mentioned, they are referenced as the same: idolaters. According to you, a conversion has taken place, so it is impossible for al quran to reference them as the same! Who is right? You or al quran? If you are proposing al quran changes the people of reference mid-sentence then please bring another example of this in the entire quran, if you speak the truth. If you cant, then your view is extremely unlikely.

Quote
their establishing salat and zakat makes it crystal clear that they are no longer idolators . isnt that enough ? by the way they are also called our brothers in 'Deen' . what do u think ?


These questions are answered in the article. I assumed you read it, was this a mistake on my part?

Quote
no . the thieves are not commanded to establish salat and give 'zakat'.


I'm glad you admitted this. This means you believe the option of conversion is only given with specific wrongdoings and not others. I would be interested to hear your criteria/reasoning of why this option is only given for certain situations and not others.

Quote from: "Wakas"
How do you explain the problem of 9:12? progressing options etc.


Quote from: "Saladin"
what about 9:12 ?


This clearly shows to me you either never read the article properly or you never understood this point in my article. Which is it? In either case, I suggest reading/re-reading the article.

Quote
by the way, u say that 'salat' means 'bond' or 'oath' . what exactly do u mean by that . what bond ? i dont get it . please tell me.


The article discusses 9:1-12. Thus 'oath/bond' is an understanding of slw based on these signs/ayatin. Did I ever say this is its blanket meaning in the entire quran? Once again, this shows you either never read the article properly or you never understood the premise of the article. In either case, I suggest reading/re-reading the article.


Please note, I will not entertain any further debate until I am sure you have actually read the article in question and the associated links. This is a conclusion based on your comments and the fact that not once have you quoted from my article.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on June 05, 2005, 04:06:01 PM
Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,

Following is quote from our pm:

Quote

tanveermd wrote:
There are a couple of points I am researching pertinent to the topic. The first point is that it seems the idolaters also used to uphold salat very similar to that of the believers !!. Salat is not only post quranic but is also pre quranic as Abraham, Moosa, Isa, Shuaib they all upheld salat. That salat was already being upheld by the idolaters at the time of revelation of the quran also which was similar to that of the believers but was not for Allah but for their own gods ( what I mean is the external physical actions i.e. the physical part of salat were similar but the content was different). It is possible that the salat of the idolaters mentioned in the first part of chapter 9 could be that salat !!

The following ayat may be the evidence for the above:

9:55 And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend to the salat except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.
Arabic Original Text 9:55 وما منعهم أن تقبل منهم نفقتهم إلا أنهم كفروا بالله وبرسوله ولا يأتون الصلوة إلا وهم كسالى ولا ينفقون إلا وهم كرهون

Here they clearly references the idolaters. Could the salat mentioned in 9:6 and 9:12 be the same salat?

Wakas wrote:
That is a long-shot. It references not true believers, those hesitant, opportunistic etc. My understanding would be oration, and it fits fine.

tanveermd wrote:
Maybe what Allah means is that if the idolaters uphold the same salat that they always upheld (not directed to Allah but to their gods or directed to Allah but lazily) in addition to repenting (from breaking the treaty) then leave them alone. What do you think brother Wakas?

Wakas wrote:
Impossible. I have never read anywhere else of The God recommending/condoning other gods. Nor would He recommend/condone a lazy salat.



The context of ayat 9:55 is rejecters (kafiroon) and not idolaters as I mistakenly said above:

9:50 And from them are those who Say: "Grant me leave, and do not test me." But it is in the test that they have indeed fallen, and Hell is surrounding the rejecters.
9:51 When any good befalls you, it upsets them, and if any bad befalls you, they Say: "We have made our precautions beforehand," and they turn away happy.
9:52 Say: "Nothing will befall us except what God has decreed for us, He is our Patron." And in God the believers shall put their trust.
9:53 Say: "You can only expect for us one of two good things; while we wait for you to be afflicted by God with a retribution from Him, or by our hands. So wait, we are with you waiting."
9:54 Say: "Spend willingly or unwillingly, it will not be accepted from you. You are a wicked people."
9:55 And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend to the salat except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.
9:56 So do not be impressed by their wealth or children; God only wishes to punish them with it in the worldly life, and so that their lives will end while they are rejecters.

9:55 is talking about the salat of the rejecters. Can you please give me your understanding about what is the salat of the rejecters? What is the meaning of salat in 9:55? How can a rejecter (kafir) attend to the salat? You say that your understanding is oration. Oration of what? The rejecters do not believe in Al-Quran. So what would they be orating?

So if a rejecter can attend to salat, maybe idolaters can also uphold their own salat to their gods? In 9:6 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.

Regards,

Tanveer
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: jonny_k on June 06, 2005, 04:54:58 AM
Quote

In 9:6 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.


Khi- Salam. I believe the pagans of Mecca knew well n casually performed the same PHYSICAL way of salat as it was passed down from Abraham. This is exactly y salat is nothing new 2 the pagans. They knew how 2 perform it but many of them were getting casual. GOD Bless!
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on June 06, 2005, 05:30:09 AM
peace Tanveer,

I shall post my response:

Quote
Peace Tanveer,

It is clear from your message that you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. A pre-conceived notion can do that to an understanding. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, so thats how I know.

Quote
The context of ayat 9:55 is rejecters (kafiroon) and not idolaters as I mistakenly said above.


Firstly, the core meaning of kfr is to conceal (with active/concious intent) but I would agree that it can mean reject.

Secondly, what is the meaning of "yatoona"?

Thirdly, the signs are discussing the opportunistic, the hypocrites, the neither here nor there, the wishy washy type of people. Al Quran describes these type of people amongst the worst type of people. Where is the word mushrikeen?

Quote
9:55 is talking about the salat of the rejecters. Can you please give me your understanding about what is the salat of the rejecters? What is the meaning of salat in 9:55? How can a rejecter (kafir) attend to the salat?


If you think the translation is "attend to the salat", then why do you presume it means "salat of the rejectors"? Is this your assumption or is this what the sign says? If you attend a meeting lets say, can I describe it as your meeting? Or more correctly, are you a participant? In any case, once you have clarified "yatoona", I will give my answer.

Quote
You say that your understanding is oration. Oration of what? The rejecters do not believe in Al-Quran. So what would they be orating?


Once again, if you think it says "attend to the salat" then why do you presume the "rejecters" would be orating? Is this your assumption or is this what the sign says?

Quote
So if a rejecter can attend to salat, maybe idolaters can also uphold their own salat to their gods? In 9:6 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.


I cant believe you're making this statement. Firstly, nowhere does The God condone/recommend upholding incorrect beliefs/practices. Your interpretation does imply that, quite clearly I might add, there is no ifs or buts. Secondly, lets say that interp. is correct, what possible reason would The God have for incorporating 'upholding their own version of slw to their false gods' into the solution?! It is completely illogical.



Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on June 06, 2005, 05:27:51 PM
Peace Wakas,

Thank you for improving my (mis)understanding of 9:55 and 9:6. "yatoona" means those who attend or come and not uphold. You have convincingly proved your point; the matter is clear to me now. Your understanding of 9:1 to 9:13 seems to be the most likely one. (All verse numbering mentioned in my post is the pm translation numbering adopted from the warsh version)

Regards,

Tanveer
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Idris on June 06, 2005, 05:58:10 PM
peace be upon you wakas,

I agree with your understanding of the aforementioned signs but I'm afraid it will not convince a sunni that salat is not a ritual prayer because they believe that the idolaters performed ritual prayer back in those days as well
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on June 07, 2005, 04:41:58 PM
peace,

Quote from: "Tanveer"
You have convincingly proved your point...


Thats twice you've said that :wink: Like most things, all it takes is careful study, as I did not come to my understanding overnight. Your input did help solidify/clarify my argument.
Thanks for clarifying "yatoona". As for oration, there are many examples of communication being relayed prior to 9:54.

Quote from: "Idris"
I'm afraid it will not convince a sunni that salat is not a ritual prayer because they believe that the idolaters performed ritual prayer back in those days as well


I agree that it cannot convince everyone, but this counter-argument is clearly contradictory to the specific signs, and 'al quran' as a whole.
On an unrelated note, nice quote by Dom Helda Camara.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on July 01, 2005, 10:16:17 AM
Peace Wakas,

I a m continuing our dialogue of here :
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3463&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
about your article :
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm

Could you go farther, and translate/explain verses [9:13-20] ?
And especially [9:17-18] ?

Thanks in advance,

JM
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on July 25, 2005, 08:01:15 AM
17. Ma (not) kana (it was/is) lilmushrikeena (to/for the polytheists/idolaters) an (to) yaAAmuroo (enliven/visit) masajida (institutes of acknowledgment) Allahi (of The God) shahideena (they testify/witness) AAala (on/against) anfusihim (themselves) bi (with/in) al kufri (the concealment/rejection) ola-ika (such like/people) habitat (are fruitless/failed) aAAmaluhum (their works/efforts) wafee (and in) al nnari (the fire) hum (they) khalidoona (stay/remain forever)

It is not for the polytheists/idolaters to enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgement of The God while they testify/witness on themselves with concealment/rejection, such people's works are fruitless and in the fire they will dwell forever. [9:17]

18. Innama (only) yaAAmuru (enliven/visit) masajida (institutes of acknowledgment) Allahi (of The God) man (those who) amana (trust/believe) bi Allahi (in The God) wa (and) al yawmi (the day/time) al-akhiri (the deferred/last) wa (and) aqama (uphold/maintain/establish) al ssalata (the bond/oration) wa ata (and bring forth) al zzakata (the betterment) wa lam (and none) yakhsha (fears) illa (except) Allaha (The God) faAAasa (expected/perhaps) ola-ika (such like/people) an (to) yakoonoo (be) mina (of/from) al muhtadeena (the guided/directed).

Only enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment of The God those who trust/believe in The God and the deferred/last time/day and uphold/establish/maintain the bond/oration and bring forth the betterment and none fears except The God, perhaps such people to be from the guided/directed. [9:18]


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on July 27, 2005, 02:49:10 AM
Thank you,

1) Who are the idolaters mentioned in [9:17] ? Are they the ones that have upheld salat and brought forth zakat in [9:5] or [9:11] ?

2) In [9:7], we can read "How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger"... What does it mean ?

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on July 27, 2005, 05:48:31 AM
peace,

Yes, the people referenced in 9:17 could be those of 9:5 & 9:11.

The part you quoted of 9:7 is self-explanatory, what specifically about it is it that you want clarified? Is it 'those'?



Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on July 28, 2005, 02:59:07 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"
peace,

Yes, the people referenced in 9:17 could be those of 9:5 & 9:11.


1) In [9:11], these idolaters are said to be brothers of the Muslim in the din. According to you this does not mean that they have become Muslim, but this just mean that they have committed themselves  to cooperate with the din of the Muslims.
But, in [9:17], we learn that these idolaters cannot visit the masjid of God.
How do you explain that ? What is wrong with visiting the masjid of God ? Is this really brotherhood ?

2) In [9:11], we learn that these idolaters have committed themselves to bring forth zakat.
But, in [9:17], we learn that their works are fruitless.
How can bringing forth of zakat be fruitless ?


Quote from: "Wakas"


The part you quoted of 9:7 is self-explanatory, what specifically about it is it that you want clarified? Is it 'those'?


As I understand it, there are 2 kinds of idolaters
- The (unfair) ones, who have disregarded their pledges, and have attacked the muslims : they have to be fought, except if they repent, uphold the salat and bring forth the zakat
- The (unfair) ones, who have respected their pledges, and have not attacked the muslims : they should not be fought, they should be left in peace.

The reason why the unfair ones should be fought is that they are unwilling to respect their ties, and that their hearts are hostile ([9:8]). About these guys, God says : "How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger" ([9:7]).
Does this not imply that their upholding of salat in [9:5] or [9:11] cannot be a new pledge with the muslims ?

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on July 28, 2005, 02:43:07 PM
peace,

Quote from: "JM"
1) In [9:11], these idolaters are said to be brothers of the Muslim in the din. According to you this does not mean that they have become Muslim, but this just mean that they have committed themselves to cooperate with the din of the Muslims.


Please dont add to 9:11, or use wording not used by the sign itself. It says what it says. I will post it here:

Quote from: "(Wakas trans.) 9:11"
But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.


Quote from: "JM"
But, in [9:17], we learn that these idolaters cannot visit the masjid of God.


Firstly, 9:17 does not say that. It does not ban them, it says its not right for those type of people (muShRK who are in concealment/rejection) to enliven/visit the MaSJD. In fact, it talks about it like it happened / is happening.

Quote from: "JM"
How do you explain that ? What is wrong with visiting the masjid of God ? Is this really brotherhood ?


I believe I answered that above. You may wish to review your understanding of the term 'brotherhood' in the context (for which I gave extensive references in the article).

Quote
2) In [9:11], we learn that these idolaters have committed themselves to bring forth zakat.
But, in [9:17], we learn that their works are fruitless.
How can bringing forth of zakat be fruitless ?


Those two signs are not even referencing the same people:

9:11 - repent, uphold the bond, bring forth the betterment ---> ally/brother in the system/obligation

As you can clearly see, those of 9:11 are past their concealment/rejection phase, and amended.

9:17 - muShRK still in the concealment/rejection phase, thus they are not the same type of people.

Quote from: "JM"
Does this not imply that their upholding of salat in [9:5] or [9:11] cannot be a new pledge with the muslims ?


Hmm, I would be uncomfortable in making such a leap. It could be just a general comment.

Now that I have answered your questions, perhaps you can answer some of mine? Quite simply, do you believe salat=prayer in 9:5 & 9:11?


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 03, 2005, 07:43:52 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"

peace,

Quote from: "JM"
1) In [9:11], these idolaters are said to be brothers of the Muslim in the din. According to you this does not mean that they have become Muslim, but this just mean that they have committed themselves to cooperate with the din of the Muslims.


Please dont add to 9:11, or use wording not used by the sign itself. It says what it says. I will post it here:

Quote from: "(Wakas trans.) 9:11"
But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.


Quote from: "JM"
But, in [9:17], we learn that these idolaters cannot visit the masjid of God.


Firstly, 9:17 does not say that. It does not ban them, it says its not right for those type of people (muShRK who are in concealment/rejection) to enliven/visit the MaSJD. In fact, it talks about it like it happened / is happening.

Quote from: "JM"
How do you explain that ? What is wrong with visiting the masjid of God ? Is this really brotherhood ?


I believe I answered that above. You may wish to review your understanding of the term 'brotherhood' in the context (for which I gave extensive references in the article).

OK, according to you,  akhw = allies
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote
2) In [9:11], we learn that these idolaters have committed themselves to bring forth zakat.
But, in [9:17], we learn that their works are fruitless.
How can bringing forth of zakat be fruitless ?


Those two signs are not even referencing the same people:

9:11 - repent, uphold the bond, bring forth the betterment ---> ally/brother in the system/obligation

As you can clearly see, those of 9:11 are past their concealment/rejection phase, and amended.

9:17 - muShRK still in the concealment/rejection phase, thus they are not the same type of people.


In the last post, you were answering :
Quote from: "Wakas"

Quote from: "/*JM*/"

1) Who are the idolaters mentioned in [9:17] ? Are they the ones that have upheld salat and brought forth zakat in [9:5] or [9:11] ?

Yes, the people referenced in 9:17 could be those of 9:5 & 9:11.

So, you have changed your mind.

Are these idolaters who have committed themselves to uphold salat and bring forth zakat referenced in [9:18] ?

What does "uphold salat and bring forth zakat" mean in [9:18] ? Is it the same meaning as in [9:5] and [9:11] ?


Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Does this not imply that their upholding of salat in [9:5] or [9:11] cannot be a new pledge with the muslims ?


Hmm, I would be uncomfortable in making such a leap. It could be just a general comment.

It is a leap of only 2 verses !

Verses [9:7-10] are justifying why the believers have to fight the (unfair) idolaters.

[9:7-10] : How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger [...]How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.

In light of what I have underlined, I think it is clear that  "aqamoo alssalata" in [9:5] and [9:11] cannot mean "to renew the pledge".


Quote from: "Wakas"

Now that I have answered your questions, perhaps you can answer some of mine? Quite simply, do you believe salat=prayer in 9:5 & 9:11?

No, but I think "aqamoo alssalata" does not have a specific meaning in [9:5] and [9:11].
I believe, that, everywhere it occurs in the quran, the salat in "aqamoo alssalata" is directed to God, and that "aqamoo alssalata"  (like "atawoo alzzakata" )can only be an ordinance for muslims.

That's why I think, even though it is not explicitly written, that the people mentioned  in [9:5] and [9:11] to uphold the salat have submitted to the divine system.

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 03, 2005, 01:10:51 PM
peace,

Quote from: "JM"
OK, according to you, akhw = allies


Not only me. Lane explicitly states this, and it can be inferred easily from its usage in 'al quran'.

Quote from: "JM"
So, you have changed your mind.


No, I have not changed my mind. I said "could", because it uses the same word, i.e. "mushrikeen", thus its a theoretical acknowledgement it could be. Another reason I said "could" is because I have already stated from the outset in the article, that the progressing options of 9:5 & 9:12 show that subsets within the "mushrikeen" exist. Which makes sense, since not every single 'mushrik' (I think thats the singular of "mushrikeen") would make bonds and break bonds, or agree/disagree, or fight, surrender etc (i.e. they are not all the same). In fact, you also recognised this.

Quote from: "JM"
Are these idolaters who have committed themselves to uphold salat and bring forth zakat referenced in [9:18] ?


I try not to extrapolate further than what the sign says. It simply says those muShRK who bear concealment/rejection upon themselves, they should not enliven/visit the maSJD of The God.

Quote from: "JM"
What does "uphold salat and bring forth zakat" mean in [9:18] ? Is it the same meaning as in [9:5] and [9:11] ?


The core meaning will always be the same. I would translate it the same way, but not necessarily referring to the treaty discussed in the earlier signs. If it references the "mumineen", it is clear what they have pledged to uphold, it is 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.

Quote from: "JM"
It is a leap of only 2 verses !


If thats the case, I dont understand what you mean. Please clarify exactly what you mean. I thought I got you, perhaps I did, but I tend not to be conclusive unless it is pretty conclusive.

---------------------------

Quote from: "JM"
In light of what I have underlined, I think it is clear that "aqamoo alssalata" in [9:5] and [9:11] cannot mean "to renew the pledge".


I would in no way call that "clear". In fact, I can confidentally say you are wrong. You have proved my point beautifully. Lets review the signs:

6. And if anyone from the idolaters seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
7. How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.

idolaters = those who upheld the bond initially and broke it and thus fought, or those who did not take the opportunity to uphold the bond, and fought, and still did not agree and thus gave up and asked for protection (but still not agreeing), and thus were escorted to their place of safety outwith the community/land, i.e. banishment. I have argued this from the start. I did not have anything conclusive though, until now.

those = those who took the opportunity to uphold the bond and followed through. This also indirectly implies, such activity takes/took place at the/a maSJD.

they = could be referring to either, but likely the latter.

That's why it says "How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement..."

From then on, it references the idolaters in red, all the way up to 9:17. Try it, it reads perfectly.
And this also explains the progressing options between 9:5 & 9:12 !!! Amazing! In 9:12, it is on about the idolaters in red, whilst initially up to 9:5 it discussed them grouped together generally.

I would like to thank you for pushing the right buttons that made me see the answer. The logical precision of 'al quran' never fails to amaze me.

----------------------------------

Quote from: "JM"
I believe, that, everywhere it occurs in the quran, the salat in "aqamoo alssalata" is directed to God, and that "aqamoo alssalata" (like "atawoo alzzakata" )can only be an ordinance for muslims.


To me, that is blatantly wrong. If after reading this, you still believe that, then please answer the questions I raised in my article.

Hopefully, this discussion has clarified your understanding, as well as mine.

:D


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 03, 2005, 02:00:01 PM
As a result, I'd like to alter my trans. slightly, changing punctuation:

How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction, as long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious. [9:7]


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 04, 2005, 01:40:39 AM
OK, I will try to push the right buttons.

1. An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the idolaters.
2. Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the concealers/rejecters.
3. And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium: "The God is quit/free from the idolaters and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
 4. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the idolaters if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
 5. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point.   If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
 6. And if anyone from the idolaters seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
 7. How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?   Except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction, as long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
 8. How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
9. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
10. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
 11. But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
 12. And if they break their oaths after making them, and they slander your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of concealment/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.
13. Will you not fight folk who have violated their trust and intended to exile the Messenger? They attacked you first! Are you afraid of them? You ought to be even more afraid of God if you are believers.
14. Fight them, so God may punish them at your hands and disgrace them, and support you against them, and heal the breasts of believing folk,
15. and remove the fury from their hearts. God turns to anyone He wishes; God is Aware, Wise.
16. Or do you reckon you will be abandoned once God knows which of you have struggled, and did not adopt anyone as an ally besides God, His messenger and believers? God is Informed anything you do.
17. It is not for the polytheists/idolaters to enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgement of The God while they testify/witness on themselves with concealment/rejection, such people's works are fruitless and in the fire they will dwell forever.
 18. Only enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment of The God those who trust/believe in The God and the deferred/last time/day and uphold/establish/maintain the bond/oration and bring forth the betterment and none fears except The God, perhaps such people to be from the guided/directed.


Meaning of the colors :

Idolaters to be fought (unfair idolaters)
 Idolaters not to be fought (fair idolaters)
 Idolaters to be fought who have repented
 Idolaters to be fought who have asked for protection


So, here are my questions :

1) Do you agree with my color codes ? Especially in [9:7] ?
I think the "straight in "as long as they are straight with you concerns only the fair idolaters.
It is only confirming "you shall continue the treaty with them " from [9:4].

2) What is the salat in "aqamoo alssalata" in [9:18] ? Is it about a former pledge/treaty ? Or is it about the system enshrined in the quran ?
According to me, everywhere "aqamoo alssalata" occurs, it is about the system enshrined in the quran. Especially in [9:5] and [9:11], where it implies that the idolaters have submitted to the divine system.

3) Assuming "aqamoo alssalata" means "uphold the pledge/treaty" in [9:5] and [9:11]

5. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point.   If they repent, and uphold/maintain the pledge/treaty and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
 [...]
 7. How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?  
 [...]
 8. How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
9. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
10. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
 11. But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the pledge/treaty and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.


How could the believers uphold/maintain a pledge/treaty, it being the case that
- These idolaters cannot have a pledge with the believers [9:7]
- These idolaters may disregard all ties, either those of kinship or a pledge [9:8]
- They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge [9:10]

Is there no a blatant contradiction ?

Hope I have been clear,

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 04, 2005, 05:42:14 AM
peace,

Two of your colour groupings make no sense:

 Idolaters to be fought who have repented

Why would you fight the ones who repented?

 Idolaters to be fought who have asked for protection

If they have asked for protection, why would you fight them?!

Quote from: "JM"
1) Do you agree with my color codes ?


No, because of the above.

Quote from: "JM"
I think the "straight in "as long as they are straight with you concerns only the fair idolaters.


I agree, that is what I found.

Quote from: "JM"
2) What is the salat in "aqamoo alssalata" in [9:18] ?


I already answered that question.

Quote from: "JM"
Is there no a blatant contradiction ?


No! I see what you are seeing though. Please stop embellishing on what 'al quran' says, that will resolve the so-called contradiction you are seeing. When 'al quran' states: "How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?" It is a rhetorical question, it is not a statement of law! If it was a stated rule, why make it a question? With the vast majority (perhaps all) of the rhetorical questions asked in 'al quran' it is asking us to reflect/think. It is obvious some believers were hesitant in fighting those who reduced from the treaty or those who fought them, and perhaps wanted to seek negotiation or a further treaty, thus The God asks this rhetorical question, asking them to ponder on what is happening, i.e. what they are doing and have done.


I hope I have been clear.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 04, 2005, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"

peace,

Two of your colour groupings make no sense:

 Idolaters to be fought who have repented

Why would you fight the ones who repented?

 Idolaters to be fought who have asked for protection

If they have asked for protection, why would you fight them?!


Sorry, it seems that my labels are lacking clarity.

Among the idolaters who have to be fought, some may have repented. Thus, they are not to be fought anymore. So, they are former idolaters to be fought. But, they are not among the straight idolaters, who have not to be fought.

Idem for the ones who have asked for protection.

Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
1) Do you agree with my color codes ?


No, because of the above.

Quote from: "JM"
I think the "straight in "as long as they are straight with you concerns only the fair idolaters.


I agree, that is what I found.


No, you were saying that the "they" in "as long as they are straight with you" could be referring to the fair as well as the unfair idolaters.
But now, we are agreed.
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
2) What is the salat in "aqamoo alssalata" in [9:18] ?


I already answered that question.


Sorry, but your answer is not clear to my mind.
Is the salat in [9:18] the same as in [9:5] and [9:11] ?
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Is there no a blatant contradiction ?


No! I see what you are seeing though. Please stop embellishing on what 'al quran' says, that will resolve the so-called contradiction you are seeing. When 'al quran' states: "How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?" It is a rhetorical question, it is not a statement of law! If it was a stated rule, why make it a question? With the vast majority (perhaps all) of the rhetorical questions asked in 'al quran' it is asking us to reflect/think. It is obvious some believers were hesitant in fighting those who reduced from the treaty or those who fought them, and perhaps wanted to seek negotiation or a further treaty, thus The God asks this rhetorical question, asking them to ponder on what is happening, i.e. what they are doing and have done.


I hope I have been clear.


Wakas

Be it a rhetorical question or not, the lesson is clear : the muslims cannot pledge themselves anymore with this kind of idolaters. They should fight them (except if they repent or ask for protection).

The crucial point between us is the content of the repentance : What have the idolaters to say when they repent ?

If they say : "OK, sorry, we should not have violated our pledge, we will stick to it up to now", then, clearly, this cannot be accepted by the muslims.
God warns them to refuse this in the following terms :
"How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?" ([9:7])
" How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge." ([9:8])
" They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked. " ([9:8])
" They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. " ([9:10])
" These are the transgressors/wrongdoers. " ([9:11])

The only repentance that can be accepted from us is something like the following : "We repent for having violated our pledge, whe have always been wrongdoers, and want to change it. Our hearts have always been hostile toward you, and we want to purify ourselves. Now, we want to change our way of life, and to follow God's laws as enshrined in the quran, and to bring forth purification".
I do not invent it, this is what God is reproaching them in verses [9:8-10].

They have to become of the muslims, since there can be no more pledging with them.
The messenger has been forbidden to take a new pledge with them, and he has been ordered to fight them. But, he has to stop the fight if they say that they want to be of the muslims.

In [9:18], the idolaters who have repented are mentioned again, and, in this verse, it is obvious that they have submitted to the divine system.

[9:18] : Only enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment of The God those who trust/believe in The God and the deferred/last time/day and uphold/establish/maintain the bond/oration and bring forth the betterment and none fears except The God, perhaps such people to be from the guided/directed.

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 04, 2005, 11:23:38 AM
peace,

Quote from: "JM"
No, you were saying that the "they" in "as long as they are straight with you" could be referring to the fair as well as the unfair idolaters.


Yes, but I said it most likely refers to the latter, i.e. the "fair idolaters" as you put it. Then I amended my trans. to reflect that.

Quote from: "JM"
Is the salat in [9:18] the same as in [9:5] and [9:11] ?


Quote from: "Wakas"
The core meaning will always be the same. I would translate it the same way, but not necessarily referring to the treaty discussed in the earlier signs. If it references the "mumineen", it is clear what they have pledged to uphold, it is 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.


If it is unclear, what exactly is unclear to you?

Quote from: "JM"
Be it a rhetorical question or not, the lesson is clear : the muslims cannot pledge themselves anymore with this kind of idolaters. They should fight them (except if they repent or ask for protection).


It might be a lesson (i.e. because it asks us to think), that still doesn't make it a law! I  personally do not derive laws from the rhetorical questions within 'al quran'. I would be interested to know if anyone here does, because if so, thats another potential hundreds of laws I havent even thought about.

Quote from: "JM"
They have to become of the muslims, since there can be no more pledging with them.
The messenger has been forbidden to take a new pledge with them, and he has been ordered to fight them. But, he has to stop the fight if they say that they want to be of the muslims.


Let's have a look at your suggested solution:

1) According to you, the "muslims" cant accept their re-pledge until those who fight convert to "Muslims". Its a pity that solution contradicts 'al quran'. You will not find this notion anywhere.

Quote from: "JM"
" These are the transgressors/wrongdoers. " ([9:11])


9:11 does not say that, you misreferenced it. In any case, 9:11 is a continuation of the prior signs (this is clear grammatically), referencing the same people, and it is clear, that a pledge (i.e. slw/bond) was made, thus a re-pledge was in fact done, converse to your understanding. If not, then you believe this slw is either something else you haven't mentioned or you believe its referring to the original slw in 9:5, if so, you cant explain the progressing options shown between 9:5 & 9:12. Or you can you? Quite simply, why the difference in solution in 9:5 & 9:12?


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 09, 2005, 09:46:04 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"

peace,

Quote from: "JM"
No, you were saying that the "they" in "as long as they are straight with you" could be referring to the fair as well as the unfair idolaters.


Yes, but I said it most likely refers to the latter, i.e. the "fair idolaters" as you put it. Then I amended my trans. to reflect that.

OK, sorry.
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Is the salat in [9:18] the same as in [9:5] and [9:11] ?


Quote from: "Wakas"
The core meaning will always be the same. I would translate it the same way, but not necessarily referring to the treaty discussed in the earlier signs. If it references the "mumineen", it is clear what they have pledged to uphold, it is 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.


If it is unclear, what exactly is unclear to you?


What is the salat in [9:18] ? Is it about the pledge to God to follow the quran ?
Or is it about the pledge between the muslims and the idolaters ?
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Be it a rhetorical question or not, the lesson is clear : the muslims cannot pledge themselves anymore with this kind of idolaters. They should fight them (except if they repent or ask for protection).


It might be a lesson (i.e. because it asks us to think), that still doesn't make it a law! I  personally do not derive laws from the rhetorical questions within 'al quran'. I would be interested to know if anyone here does, because if so, thats another potential hundreds of laws I havent even thought about.



Here is, in some examples, how I draw lessons from rhetorical questions :

[2:28] :  How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? [...]
=> we can not reject God.

[3:86] :  How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them?
=> God cannot guide such people.

[6:101] :  Originator of the heavens and the Earth, how can He have a son when He did not take a wife? [...]
=> God cannot have a son.

[9:7] :  How can those who have set up partners have a pledge with God and with His messenger?
=> There cannot be a pledge with the idolaters.

[10:99] :   [...]  Would you force the people to make them believe?
=> The prophet cannot force the people to believe.

Quote from: "Wakas"



Quote from: "JM"
They have to become of the muslims, since there can be no more pledging with them.
The messenger has been forbidden to take a new pledge with them, and he has been ordered to fight them. But, he has to stop the fight if they say that they want to be of the muslims.


Let's have a look at your suggested solution:

1) According to you, the "muslims" cant accept their re-pledge until those who fight convert to "Muslims". Its a pity that solution contradicts 'al quran'. You will not find this notion anywhere.



No, it doesn't.

Perhaps you are saying that because you think it contradict [10:99]

[10:99] :   And had your Lord willed, all the people on Earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

As you know, there are  2 kinds of idolaters : the "fair" and the "unfair".

The fair ones are mentioned here :

 4. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the idolaters if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
 5. [...]   [...]
 6. [...]
 7. [...]   Except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction, as long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.  


Theses idolaters are to be left in peace by the Muslims. The muslims should not attack them, nor they should force them to anything.

But the "unfair" idolaters don't share the same fate ! These ones have to be fought !  So, freedom of deen is not an issue for them. Will you care of the freedom of deen of the enemies you are fighting ? That's nonsense !
Nevertheless, there is a last chance for them : to submit to the divine system.
God cannot let the prophet kill people who say they want to become muslims. That's why God gives them this last chance.

Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
" These are the transgressors/wrongdoers. " ([9:11])


9:11 does not say that, you misreferenced it.

It is in [9:10].
Quote from: "Wakas"

In any case, 9:11 is a continuation of the prior signs (this is clear grammatically), referencing the same people, and it is clear, that a pledge (i.e. slw/bond) was made, thus a re-pledge was in fact done, converse to your understanding.

Look at [9:7-10] !
It is impossible that a pledge may have been made with the idolaters in [9:5] !
In [9:7-10], God is deterring the Muslims to pledge again with them.


 7. How can those idolaters have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger?   [...]
 8. How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
9. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
10. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.

Quote from: "Wakas"


If not, then you believe this slw is either something else you haven't mentioned or you believe its referring to the original slw in 9:5, if so, you cant explain the progressing options shown between 9:5 & 9:12. Or you can you? Quite simply, why the difference in solution in 9:5 & 9:12?

The oath in [9:12] is the oath the idolaters made in their repentance, when they have decided to submit to the divine system.
The chiefs should be fought first, because they influence the others.

Peace,

JM
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 09, 2005, 01:29:48 PM
peace,

Quote from: "JM"
What is the salat in [9:18] ? Is it about the pledge to God to follow the quran ?


Essentially, yes, but I would not phrase it like that.
Quote from: "JM"

[2:28] :  How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? [...]
=> we can not reject God.


We can reject The God. These people are called rejectors/idolaters/polytheists etc. Like I said, if you want to derive law from rhetorical questions, feel free. I dont. Like you said, "draw lessons", not law.

If you wish to embellish upon the signs and use this as a basis for your arguments, thats up to you. Thanks for the pointers though, as it made me solidify my argument further.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 10, 2005, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"

peace,

Quote from: "JM"
What is the salat in [9:18] ? Is it about the pledge to God to follow the quran ?


Essentially, yes, but I would not phrase it like that.


How would you phrase it ?

Like that ?
Quote

If it references the "mumineen", it is clear what they have pledged to uphold, it is 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.


You are claiming that salat in [9:5] and [9:11] designates a pledge with the idolaters. And now, you are admitting that salat in [9:18] designates a pledge with God.

Why this change of meaning of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat", in a unchanging context ?

If the idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in [9:5] and [9:11] are not mentioned in [9:17], are they mentioned in [9:18] ?

Quote from: "Wakas"

Quote from: "JM"

[2:28] :  How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? [...]
=> we can not reject God.

We can reject The God. These people are called rejectors/idolaters/polytheists etc. Like I said, if you want to derive law from rhetorical questions, feel free. I dont. Like you said, "draw lessons", not law.

1) I have never said the rhetorical question in [9:7] was a statement of law.

2) Let's take what appears to be a statement of law :

[2:21] :  O people, serve your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be righteous.

Does it imply that we CANNOT refuse to serve God ?
NO ! It does NOT ! We CAN indeed refuse to serve God....
Yes, we CAN...
If we are of these people who are called rejecters/idolaters/polytheists !

So, your argument falls through.

3) Now, if you still refuse to draw from [9:7] the conclusion that the muslims can not pledge again with the idolaters, let's consider [9:8,10]

[9:8] :  How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. [...]
=> Will you make a pledge with this kind of people who will surely reject it when they gain the upper-hand ?

[9:8] : [...] They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
=> Will you have enough confidence in such guys to pledge with them ?

[9:10] :  They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. [...]
=> Will you pledge with such people, who do not respect you, and are unable to respect a pledge ?

[9:10] : [...] These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
=> Will you make a pledge with transgressors/wrongdoers ?

As a conclusion, salat in [9:5] cannot be a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims. This would contradict all the verses quoted above.

Salat in [9:5] and [9:11] is about the pledge of the muslims with God, as salat in [9:18]

Peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 10, 2005, 03:04:00 AM
peace,

i would phrase it, like ive always phrased it:

'uphold the going/turning towards' OR 'uphold the bond'.

For anyone who had done some study on who the mumineen are, it is blatantly obvious what they uphold, and what bond they are associated with.

Quote from: "JM"
Why this change of meaning of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat", in a unchanging context ?


Is your definition of unchanging context, the same chapter? If you think the context is the same, fine. 'al quran' doesn't. In 9:18, it is referencing the mumineen. In any case, i did not change the meaning at all.

Quote from: "JM"
If the idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in [9:5] and [9:11] are not mentioned in [9:17], are they mentioned in [9:18] ?


I am not using the Warsh numbering, thus in 9:18, the idolaters are not mentioned. FACT.

Quote from: "JM"
1) I have never said the rhetorical question in [9:7] was a statement of law.


You may not have used the word "law" explicitly, but when someone makes an absolute or factual statement, which leaves no room for interpretation, about a sign in 'al quran' like you did, its the same thing.

Quote from: "JM"
As a conclusion, salat in [9:5] cannot be a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims. This would contradict all the verses quoted above.


No it wouldn't. Firstly, the are not statements of absolutes. Secondly, you disregard the feeling of those with the messenger who were fighting them. They were clearly hesitant (see 9:13, 9:16), hence re-stating / reflection on what the idolaters did.

Quote from: "JM"
Salat in [9:5] and [9:11] is about the pledge of the muslims with God, as salat in [9:18]


Its a pity that doesn't work grammatically, logically, or contextually:

pledge with God? Not once mentioned.
muslims? Not once mentioned, and disproven grammatically.
In 9:18, it is the mumineen, not the muslimeen. FACT.
9:5 it is fight them all, 9:12 it is fight the chiefs.

Please note, I will not discuss this issue further, unless I feel a solid point has been made.


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: SwedenMajidah on August 10, 2005, 04:45:14 AM
Salaam,

I will just say that I don't believe in the physical sujood, where in Quran it says that we shall perform salat and make physical sujood?

Before when I was sunni I did the physical sujood but it never felt good and then I couldn't understand why.

It feels strange to physically sujood it feels like you idolize the ground you stand and sit on.

I believe instead that salat is a way to uphold the good and to uphold the contact with God at the both ends of a day salatul fajr and salat ishaa.

I think a form of meditation is a way to let your spirit be in good shape.

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on August 11, 2005, 10:00:08 PM
Peace sister Majidah,

How would you understand/interpret the following signs ?

17:108 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say: "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17:109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.


Here falling on chins is mentioned in context of SJD, which clearly makes it a physical act (not on the forehead though as per the sectarians).
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: SwedenMajidah on August 12, 2005, 01:44:24 AM
Salaam Tanveermd,

I cannot see it as a physical act because in my understanding the contact with God is through the spirit and spirits doesn't bend physically but ofcourse I can bend spiritually.

I also believe that our physical needs is only connect to this earth and that is the curse we got after been kicked out from the paradise.

I know that you will ask why God use chin, hands, feets and so on in Quran to explain things but that I see as a real challenge to look beyond the words and we humans we are also talking about he hands of God and so on but we don't know if God has hands or not, so that is only to express something to make it logic to our physical behaviours here on earth.

The face is also a very important part of our body because it is in our face we can see the different kind of feelings a person express like hapiness, sorrows, evilness and so on.

I cannot see that verse you mentioned to be a way of performing salat and absolutely not an obligatory act.

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: tanveermd on August 12, 2005, 07:56:35 AM
Peace Majidah,

I agree that upholding salat is not an obligatory act because it is for the mumineen (believers) and not necessarily for the muslimeen (submitters).

When hands are mentioned in context of The God then of course that is allegorical, but when chin is mentioned in context of humans then it is clearly physical. Please support what you are saying from Qur'aan and bring me ONE example of an ayat where the word "CHINS" is used in context of humans ALLEGORICALLY.

The context of the signs that I quoted is clearly salat:

17:107 And a compilation that We have separated, so that you may relate it to the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.
17:108 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say: "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17:109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
17:110 Say: "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy SALAT, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17:111 And Say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.


According to the following sign recitation of Qur'aan is clearly mentioned in context of salat:

17:79 Thou shall uphold the SALAT at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.

Oration of Qur'aan as well as prostration are parts of upholding salat and according to the above signs the prostration is being mentioned in context of salat and is clearly physical involving falling on ones chin as opposed to the forehead.

Prostration also has a general meaning of obedience, so in addition to  physical prostration on the chin it also means obeying The God in our daily lives and following His guidance, when mentioned in context of humans upholding salat.

Regards,

Tanveer
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: /*JM*/ on August 12, 2005, 09:33:15 AM
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Why this change of meaning of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat", in a unchanging context ?


Is your definition of unchanging context, the same chapter? If you think the context is the same, fine. 'al quran' doesn't. In 9:18, it is referencing the mumineen. In any case, i did not change the meaning at all.


Why do you exclude that, in [9:5] and [9:11], the idolaters have, in their repentance, committed to become mumineen ?
To repent = to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life (Merriam-Webster)

Is there any occurrence of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat" where it does not reference believers ? I don't think so.

And I have difficulties to imagine how one could purify oneself (or bring forth purification) without turning toward God's guidance.

[2:151] :   As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.

Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
If the idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in [9:5] and [9:11] are not mentioned in [9:17], are they mentioned in [9:18] ?


I am not using the Warsh numbering, thus in 9:18, the idolaters are not mentioned. FACT.


I never said I were using Warsh numbering.

I am looking for those idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in [9:5] and [9:11].
After [9:5] and [9:11], It seems that we have no news of them.
Can they enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment ?


Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
1) I have never said the rhetorical question in [9:7] was a statement of law.


You may not have used the word "law" explicitly, but when someone makes an absolute or factual statement, which leaves no room for interpretation, about a sign in 'al quran' like you did, its the same thing.

Quote from: "JM"
As a conclusion, salat in [9:5] cannot be a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims. This would contradict all the verses quoted above.


No it wouldn't. Firstly, the are not statements of absolutes. Secondly, you disregard the feeling of those with the messenger who were fighting them. They were clearly hesitant (see 9:13, 9:16), hence re-stating / reflection on what the idolaters did.


Yes, they were hesitant, but this does change anything.
In all these verses, God deters the muslims to pledge with these idolaters, and orders the muslims to fight them.
Is this not clear ?
Quote from: "Wakas"


Quote from: "JM"
Salat in [9:5] and [9:11] is about the pledge of the muslims with God, as salat in [9:18]


Its a pity that doesn't work grammatically, logically, or contextually:

pledge with God? Not once mentioned.

This is what they have pledged to uphold, i.e : 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.
Quote from: "Wakas"

muslims? Not once mentioned, and disproven grammatically.

Why, " disproven grammatically" ?
Quote from: "Wakas"

In 9:18, it is the mumineen, not the muslimeen. FACT.

What does it change ?
Quote from: "Wakas"

9:5 it is fight them all, 9:12 it is fight the chiefs.

What does it change ?
Quote from: "Wakas"

Please note, I will not discuss this issue further, unless I feel a solid point has been made.
Wakas

You claim that salat in [9:5] and [9:11] is a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims.
But this interpretation is made imposible by verses [9:7-10], whereGod deters the muslim to make any other pledge with the idolaters.
I think it is an enough solid point.

Peace.
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on August 12, 2005, 11:51:40 AM
peace tanveer, majidah,

Please check out the following thread:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=866


Wakas
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: SwedenMajidah on August 13, 2005, 08:25:09 AM
Salaam Wakas,

Thank you very much for this thread it helped me much.

I do hope Br Tanveermd read it too.

Peace
Sis Majidah
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: naxus on August 13, 2005, 02:13:42 PM
Peace to all i agree with u SwedenMajidah the link has clearfy many things to me great work by bro Mh , Ayman n Idolfree1 peace
Title: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on December 19, 2005, 07:32:27 PM
An update on the article:

One of the things I'd change in the above article is "assail IN your system/obligation" in 9:12. This weakens the traditional understanding of deen=religion. Further reading: see here (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68711&highlight=#68711)

Another thing I thought of was that it states "and THEY (muAAtadoona/transgressors/wrongdoers) assail in YOUR deen". Now traditional interpretations of these signs say the muAAtadoona have become Muslims, if that is the case, why separate them by THEY and YOUR. This clearly shows they are still thought of as separate groups, as the article points out.

To conclude:
It is not considered theirs to assail in, thus they never entered into a religion/deen* (Islam).

*traditional understanding


Comments?
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on May 10, 2006, 06:30:57 AM
I was reading my article today and happened to notice it was exactly 1 year after I wrote it. Thought those who haven't might like to read it:

Also, Layth/Zein, if you could add it to the articles list and the what's new section, that would be cool.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm

I would really love for some traditional scholars to challenge it.

Anyways, it should be read with the following change (as stated in the above post):

9:12 "And if they break their oaths after making them, and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system...



Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on October 25, 2006, 02:10:41 PM
The updated article:

http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: ILisa on November 01, 2006, 05:13:23 AM
Peace Wakas,

Great article, I've saved it for future reference as well.  I also wanted to bring to your attention an article that I found today about 'prayer' from a different perspective .....  I found it to be very interesting, to say the least.  I'm curious to read your opinion on what he writes.  Here's the link ... if you have the time...

http://www.nierica.com/prayers/ExplorePrayer.html

With gratitude...
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: PakistaniAbroad on November 07, 2006, 02:04:09 PM
The updated article:

http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

very nice article and a lot of work..

I vote for it to be promoted at the free-minds website under Articles. It's definitely one explanation that's emerging to be the final explanation to Salat.. all else have led to ambiguity. I guess it's time Allah wants the God-Alone community to finally have a unanimous outcome to this most important debate.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on November 07, 2006, 02:42:55 PM
ILisa,

Sorry, I thought I replied to this. I read it. I dont have much to say on it. The only comments I'd make is that a balance of giving thanks and requesting blessings needs to be struck. Now, I tend to stay away from specific blessings, just general ones, as I am more comfortable with that. I do agree with the gist of the following statement: "It really is true that what we give or do to others, we give or do to ourselves. If we want peace, healing, light and love in our lives, we must focus our will, intent and actions on opening to these qualities and extending them to self and others."


PA,

Thanks for the feedback. The older article is present on the free-minds articles page:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: ILisa on November 08, 2006, 12:31:22 AM
Peace Wakas,

Thank you for taking the time to read the link and to comment.  I certainly agree with you on 'seeking the middle path', in all we do.  An extreme of anything or any action can throw us off balance.

L
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on November 08, 2006, 07:05:14 AM
peace ILisa,

I totally agree.

Finding the wasat (most balanced/just/excellent) is one of the most important concepts in 'al quran in my opinion.

Aim for the wasat in all that you do.


Wakas
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: explorer on July 26, 2007, 07:06:21 PM
Wakas,

I know this is a very old forum.  Sorry for re-opening it.  I dont know what is your current position on salat. Please send me the link on your recent article on this subject. I found this debate very thought provoking.

I am not sure if you are still maintaining: "non-muslims can also perform salat" based on chapter 9.

My question:

In 5:6, believers are asked to clean themselves before salat.  Can we infer from this that only believers are expected to perform salat?

"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative." (5:6)
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on July 27, 2007, 02:15:01 AM
peace explorer,

My position is that the regular/timed "salat" is only upon the mumineen/believers.

And yes, my position is still that according to chapter 9, non-believers can uphold/maintain the "salat". This can confuse some, however, if you read my articles all should become clear:

http://mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm (an introductory article to the basic concept)
http://mypercept.co.uk/quran_on_salat.htm (reasonably comprehensive list of additional information)
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm (a discussion on chapter 9's pivotal usage)
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on December 26, 2007, 09:37:11 AM
Peace Wakas,

This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...

In 9:122:

Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?


What's your view on this sign?

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: OPF on December 26, 2007, 05:55:02 PM
Peace Wakas,

This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...

In 9:122:

Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?


What's your view on this sign?



War strategy perhaps? Consider that in another quranic verse it instructs believers to strike at the enemy's command centres.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on December 27, 2007, 06:00:06 AM
Peace OPF,

First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm


Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: OPF on December 27, 2007, 07:46:29 AM
Peace OPF,

First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm


Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.



What is the 'deen'?
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on December 27, 2007, 08:18:24 AM
Usually translated as 'religion' but the better word for it is 'system'. FM uses 'system'.


Example, see how it's used in  2:256 (no compulsion in al-deen)and 42:13 (...the same 'deen'...).


= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.

dana vb. (I)
impf. act. 9:29
pcple. pass. 37:53, 56:86

dayn n.m. 2:282, 4:11, 4:12, 4:12, 4:12

din n.m. 1:4, 2:132, 2:193, 2:217, 2:217, 2:256, 3:19, 3:24, 3:73, 3:83, 3:85, 4:46, 4:125, 4:146, 4:171, 5:3, 5:3, 5:3, 5:54, 5:57, 5:77, 6:70, 6:137, 6:159, 6:161, 7:29, 7:51, 8:39, 8:49, 8:72, 9:11, 9:12, 9:29, 9:33, 9:33, 9:36, 9:122, 10:22, 10:104, 10:105, 12:40, 12:76, 15:35, 16:52, 22:78, 24:2, 24:25, 24:55, 26:82, 29:65, 30:30, 30:30, 30:32, 30:43, 31:32, 33:5, 37:20, 38:78, 39:2, 39:3, 39:11, 39:14, 40:14, 40:26, 40:65, 42:13, 42:13, 42:21, 48:28, 48:28, 49:16, 51:6, 51:12, 56:56, 60:8, 60:9, 61:9, 61:9, 70:26, 74:46, 82:9, 82:15, 82:17, 82:18, 83:11, 95:7, 98:5, 98:5, 107:1, 109:6, 109:6, 110:2,

tadayana vb. (VI) perf. act. 2:282

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages: 108, 109, 110, 111, 112

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: YahTayVoleem on December 27, 2007, 11:49:35 AM
Peace.

My question for Wakas: Have you read Layth's new article on Salat?

If so, how does your view differ from his?

What parts if any do you think are missing from Layth's article?

My question for Layth: Have you read Wakas' article on Salat?

If so, how does your view differ from his?

What parts if any do you think are missing from Wakas' article?


Thoughts......

I have read both articles and I am wondering.....what is the real difference between the two thoughts processes?

I understand from Wakas' article that salat is not prayer, but I also understand from Layth's article what salat is... and how to... on a practical basis...implement that in my life.

But is there someway that we can combine both articles to give a more clear picture? Is there someway we can come together as brothers and sisters in the deen? We need to unite...I am asking in the name of God, The Almighty, The Merciful...for uniting on the parts of Layth and Wakas in regards to the salat issue, and come up with a unified article on the issue.

Wakas tells you what Salat isn't and Layth tells you what Salat is...why couldn't we combine them and perhaps expand on it, and maybe come up with a unifed article that could be produced, God willing, down the road... as a small salat leaflet or booklet?

I have the technological ability and software needed to be involved in that if needed. I am also willing to contribute financially if need be as much as I can afford, God willing.

I have been here under many names for the past three years or more, and have gone through the learning process with both brothers, and now is the time I stand up and say we need to unite our understanding of salat. I feel we are so close, yet we need some sort of document that is the standard. I will not accept the comments that drag the process down. We WILL God willing, have a central unified understanding on salat, God willing. Then this when done needs to be the only article on the article section and if people want to debate it or come up with other ideas that is why we have the forum section where people could debate it. Make sense?

Please comment.

YTV

P.S. I love you ALL....for the sake of God and whatever it is you need feel free to ask anytime..and God willing whatever I can contribute I will, God willing.


YTV

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on December 28, 2007, 06:09:29 AM
peace HMD, YTV, all,

Re: 9:122

I have not studied the context and cross-referenced it but from 9:122 the timeframe cant be judged. For example, they may be setting out to battle immeditaely or in the next few hours, i.e. there is no time for salat al fajr / salat al esha etc. As a side note, there is a sign that discusses the prophet setting out at dawn (to battle?) and there is a sign discussing a salat during a time of fear, limited time, so these events may be connected.

Re: Layth's article

I responded to it here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14843.15
As I stated in the above thread, the direction of the article is ok, but the core premise is built upon an unverifiable point.

HMD, referenced one slw article, but the others which I referenced prior in this thread should be read in conjunction with it.



Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Alen on January 02, 2008, 06:17:18 AM
Peace.
My question for Wakas: Have you read Layth's new article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Layth's article?
My question for Layth: Have you read Wakas' article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Wakas' article?
Thoughts......
I have read both articles and I am wondering.....what is the real difference between the two thoughts processes?
I understand from Wakas' article that salat is not prayer, but I also understand from Layth's article what salat is... and how to... on a practical basis...implement that in my life.
But is there someway that we can combine both articles to give a more clear picture? Is there someway we can come together as brothers and sisters in the deen? We need to unite...I am asking in the name of God, The Almighty, The Merciful...for uniting on the parts of Layth and Wakas in regards to the salat issue, and come up with a unified article on the issue.
Wakas tells you what Salat isn't and Layth tells you what Salat is...why couldn't we combine them and perhaps expand on it, and maybe come up with a unifed article that could be produced, God willing, down the road... as a small salat leaflet or booklet?

I have the technological ability and software needed to be involved in that if needed. I am also willing to contribute financially if need be as much as I can afford, God willing.
I have been here under many names for the past three years or more, and have gone through the learning process with both brothers, and now is the time I stand up and say we need to unite our understanding of salat. I feel we are so close, yet we need some sort of document that is the standard. I will not accept the comments that drag the process down. We WILL God willing, have a central unified understanding on salat, God willing. Then this when done needs to be the only article on the article section and if people want to debate it or come up with other ideas that is why we have the forum section where people could debate it. Make sense?
Please comment.
YTV
P.S. I love you ALL....for the sake of God and whatever it is you need feel free to ask anytime..and God willing whatever I can contribute I will, God willing.
YTV

Salam,
Respectfully.

I agree and i am also willing to help in any way that i can, God willing.
Many times have i been asking many questions regarding the prayer and i wold love to join the debate and the search, God willing.

Allah Ellem.

Peace.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on January 02, 2008, 07:23:00 AM
If anyone wishes to help, it's really simple. I am constantly involved in islam/quran projects. Contact me if interested.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: YahTayVoleem on January 03, 2008, 07:26:08 AM
Peace.

I previously read the articles about salat from layth and wakas....now I have come across the submitter perspective....now I am even more confused.....

they say 74:31 over it is nineteen.....etc etc and I have checked and rechecked the numbers for salat and it does add up right...

24434 is a multiple of 19 (1286x19)

so I wonder if anyone layth or wakas has come across that information....

and if so how did they disregard it as false and on what basis...

I am a bit perplexed.....

seems once a person gets a firm handle on what they belive a new twist comes along.....


YTV
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on January 03, 2008, 07:59:16 AM
peace YTV,

submission.org articles were actually the first ones I read on "salat" a long time ago, so I am familliar with what they say. Personally, I do not use code-19 to validate non-Quranic info.


As a side note, if anyone is confused about "salat" or any concept for that matter, simply study it from al quran itself. The tools are available online now and it has never been easier. This methodology is very effective, as there is nothing more powerful than seeing the truth for yourself.

www.studyquran.org
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: YahTayVoleem on January 03, 2008, 08:23:08 AM
Peace.

I appreciate your prompt reply to my post. I am wondering what is the root I should be looking up?

Any assistance would be highly appreciated.

YTV
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on January 03, 2008, 08:56:17 AM
ص ل و  =  Sad-Lam-Waw

Please don't hesitate to message me, if you have any further questions.

 :peace:
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 18, 2009, 05:04:23 PM
Read from 8:30-40 and compare with 9:1-19.

Very interesting comparison. It seems these two passages refer to the same events.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on September 18, 2009, 05:14:54 PM
Good connection. Both passages speak of the restricted masjid, the house, etc.

How do you understand the salat in 8:35 vs. 9:11?

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 18, 2009, 06:00:20 PM
How do you understand the salat in 8:35 vs. 9:11?

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Chapter 9

1. An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
2. Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
3. And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium: "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
4. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
5. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
6. And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
7. How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
8. How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
9. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
10. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
11. But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
12. And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.

8:35
And their bond at the house was nothing but noise/whistling and clapping/aversion/deception. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.



Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.


Also, note the accuracy of usage of KFR in both passages.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on September 19, 2009, 09:38:32 AM
Peace Wakas,


9:11 But if they repent, and uphold the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain our signs for a people who know.

Don't you think that they became believers, based on the above verse?
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 19, 2009, 01:56:49 PM
p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 8:30-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 8:39 in conjunction with 9:11.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on September 19, 2009, 03:17:24 PM
p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 8:30-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 8:39 in conjunction with 9:11.

I agree with you that 9:5-6 has nothing to do with ritual prayer, since it is talking about 'mushriks' holding the salat, whereas the salat as in reading the reading/quran at dawn and in the evening together with praising God, etc. is for the mumins.

In 9:11 it is different, since it talks about them being 'brothers in the system'.

I also agree with you that repentance does not mean 'conversion' (and definitely not in 9:5-6), but 9:11 talks about repentance AND them being brothers in the system. 9:12 says that if they violate their oaths and attack our system (ie. turn back to their old ways), then we may fight them. It is also significant that it uses 'the system' in 9:11 and 'your system' in 9:12, showing a change - they no longer are part of the system.

I also agree with you that 'salat' means 'bond'. Oath is a possibility, but there is already a word for that one used: 'ayman'/'aymanahum'. 'Ties' and 'pledge' are also used in 9:7 and 9:10, which are similar-meaning words.

The contrast between "uphold the salat" + "bring forth the betterment" and "break their oaths after making them" + "they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system" is quite interesting.

If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.

I dont think that 9:5 is the same as/similar/talks about "the same 'salat'" as in 9:11/as described in 9:11.

I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).

8:34 Why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the inviolable institution/place of obedience/temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous. But most of them do not know.

8:35 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: jaythikay99 on September 19, 2009, 04:03:57 PM

I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).

8:35 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."

you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

 :peace:
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 19, 2009, 04:05:18 PM
I recommend re-reading.

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Quote
Clearly, according to the dictionaries, akhw has a much wider meaning. In fact, 'the reading' itself confirms this understanding [2:220, 3:103, 7:65, 7:73, 7:85, 11:50, 11:61, 15:47, 17:27, 26:106, 26:124, 26:142, 26:161, 27:45, 33:5, 46:21, 49:10, 58:22]

Quote
And last but by no means least, nowhere in 'the reading' does it state fight those who break their "oath of Islam", i.e. those who become disbelievers after accepting Islam. In fact, people are free to believe then disbelieve if they wish [4:137].

Quote
The wording of this verse strongly implies that they (polytheists/transgressors) are not considered to be anything other than polytheists/transgressors: "...and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system (deen)...". This clearly shows they are being discussed as separate groups and it was NEVER considered their "deen".

Cross reference with 8:39
"And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire deen is God's..."

The obvious question: what is deen? Since we know someone can assail (i.e. cause damage) in it, and just as someone can live according to it (see 12:76), what is the obvious, and perhaps only answer? Is it a religion/system requiring its followers to all be of the same belief/faith? Only those of the same belief/faith can live in a deen? (disproven by the story of Joseph). Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community? Once this is understood, we can see why AQ uses the generic term akhw, incorrectly translated as "brother", as proven by AQ. From Lane's Lexicon: "When it does not relate to birth, it means conformity/similarity and combination/agreement or unison in action.".

Quote
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding.

Please re-read the article several times, examining all concepts/words.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 19, 2009, 04:06:45 PM
you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35.

Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

Quote
and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: jaythikay99 on September 19, 2009, 04:17:13 PM
Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.

yes their prayer-like salat doesn't make any sense. and we have no other evidence except 8:35
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on September 19, 2009, 05:10:30 PM
you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

 :peace:

I said that it referred to them holding the salat (ie. holding the bond and "praying", if you understand that better, as opposed to making an oath.) Remember that salat = prayer
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on September 19, 2009, 05:37:15 PM
Quote
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.


"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

.
Quote
Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."

What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

How many deens are we to follow? Hint: 3-19.

The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.





Wakas, do you think 33:10-25 is also about the same events? I'm still studying it, so not sure either way. But it seems that way.

Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community?".


 Chapter 107 is sufficient, imo.  :D
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on September 20, 2009, 03:00:16 AM
"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').


What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

2:125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who humble themselves and make obeisance."

2:126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"

2:127 As Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael, "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."

2:128 "Our Lord, and let us peacefully surrender to You and from our progeny a nation peacefully surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Most Forgiving, the Compassionate."

2:129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."

2:130 Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.


21:73 We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and hold the bond and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.


3:96 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.


The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.

Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

5:48 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 20, 2009, 04:08:27 AM
peace Jack,

Nice find with 3:156. There is similar with 33:18.

33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

Re: 107
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on September 20, 2009, 09:06:49 PM
Peace,

Quote
Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').

To understand brothers in your deen, you have to understand what 'brother' really means.

Quote
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

That in itself is not evidence. If indeed all the messengers are told the same thing (41:43), how is Abraham told something different from Noah? Especially because he sprung from Noah's company. Noah also had a sanctuary/house - 71:28. 33:33 and 10:87 give a good picture of the house.



Re: 3-96


7-143:

...When he awoke, he said: "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Were there no believers before Moses?


Quote
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

Why must "rites" be part of one's deen? What's the evidence for this view?

-There is only one system- islam -  a common noun

-All the messengers followed the same system

-Al quran contrasts those who deny the system with shrik, e.g. 9:33, 16:52 and 29:65, as we segue back to chapter 9.


How do "jews" make a mockery of the system? 4:46


Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Jack on September 20, 2009, 09:15:54 PM
Peace Wakas,

Quote
33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

This is true for the most part. I think it's showing 'the other side' - the believers and among them hypocrites..

It mentions allatheen kufaroo/those who concealed/rejected in 33:25. I am basing it on 33:25. The God sparing the believers any fighting = the treaty.

Quote
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.

Exactly.
It's difficult for some (consciously or subconsciously) to study AQ with no preconceptions. When I read it, I pretend I know nothing of a particular subject I am studying, so that new ideas might hit me.



Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: abdalquran on September 25, 2009, 12:03:54 AM

I would also try to contrast between 'deen' and 'iman'. Salat is performed by our 'brothers in deen' but never our 'brothers in iman'. There must be a reason for this.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: abdalquran on October 10, 2009, 11:51:02 AM
   Yes it means " The Prayers." And the prayers were ordained on the belivers, not the non believers. God is seeking those believers being led by the Spirit to establish alssalawaati. Thus, you caint expect the unbelievers to keep the prayers.  :peace: And asalat is used in 5/106 to make it clear to you.  :peace:

Here's a breakdown of 5/106 for your convenience:
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ? O you who BELIEVE. (so who is the audience here? BELIEVERS)
shahadatu bayniKUM itha hadara ahadaKUMU almawtu heena alwasiyyati ? take witnsseses between YOU when one of YOU is close to death during the time of drawing up the will (so once again, the YOU here refers to who? Believers)
thawa AAadlin minKUM - 2 posessors of justice from YOU. (and yet again, we have the YOU who are the BELIEVERS)
aw akharani min ghayriKUM ? or 2 others from OTHER than YOU (who are other than BELIEVERS? Non-believers)
in antum darabtum fee al-ardi ? if you are travelling through the earth
faasabatKUM museebatu almawti ? and death befalls you.
tahbisoonahuma min baAAdi alssalati ? detain them both after AS-SALAT

It can?t get clearer than this. As-salat is definitely not the prayers.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: herbman on October 14, 2009, 08:11:14 AM
Salam, Peace,

just my 2 cents, for me salat is a "social system" as per surat 107.
So aqimu assalat would mean uphold the social system e.g. social solidarity.

regards
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on January 24, 2015, 04:41:48 AM
On another thread, member Mazhar raised a concern that a conditional and apodosis clause somehow shows the following:

Quote from: Mazhar
Once the conditions are fulfilled, they are no more polytheists; they have become Muslims for which reason the apodosis clause declares them as brothers in Deen: Islam. Ideologically reverting to Monotheism and then the two physical performances are the symbols of Islam.

Plenty of baseless interpolations in the above.

And then claimed:

Quote
A conditional sentence alongwith apodosis clause does not mean commanding some body as is your basic argument in the link under discussion.

But failed to provide a quote from my article wherein I state they are commanded. Not to mention the above statement seem to misunderstand my argument.

My argument is simple: there is very little to no evidence of a conversion (which the traditional understanding of salat requires). Those disputing this usually argue along the lines of this is an exception in Quran and a conversion is implied, not explicit. Some may find this argument acceptable, I don't.

Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hicham9 on February 05, 2015, 09:20:30 AM
Quote
7-143:

...When he awoke, he said: "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Were there no believers before Moses?
 

Peace Jack@

A more coherent understanding of the passage in question would be that: Moses declared himself to be the first of the "acknowledgers" [...]  i.e. he acknowleged that G-D cannot be seen (by mortals).

SLM
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Man of Faith on February 05, 2015, 10:48:12 AM
Amen means to realize or make something a particular way through realization and not believe. Moses realized as a consequence of the experience.

And the lesson is that God has no form or shape, or time and place, but it omnipresent and in control of every atom. Moses realized this among other things. He was repentant because he had already known the nature of God but was still testing God due to some doubt inside him. After this he had realized for sure.

Salaam
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: hicham9 on February 06, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
Peace MOF,

hope everything is going well your way.

As far as i know, derivatives of the (semitic) root ʔmn (أ م ن) can denote various meanings (depending on the context), including: acceptance, acknowledgement, trust, confidence, conviction, assurance, safety, security [...]

My (current) understanding is that: ʔāmana (آمَنَ) means: To acknowledge (ie. accept as true, real, or factual). Its 'direct antonym' (in the Qurān) is: kafara (كَفَرَ) which means: To deny (ie. reject as untrue, unreal, or fictional) [...]


Ps: imo, Mose's request was not initiated by "doubt"
but curiosity.

SLM
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Man of Faith on February 07, 2015, 05:09:24 AM
Yes Hicham. You are right. Moses was curious.  But apparently he did not understand that Allah cannot be seen visually hence his question. His response is that now he realizes about the nature of Allah. I doubt the Rabb really sought to hurt Moses due to his innocent question though, but the Rabb probably shook the mountain pretty well.

I do find amen to be more of a realization than to acknowledge something, even if both realization and acknowledgement can be considered related to each other. However, I find realization to be more versatile and fit for the usage in whole Quran.

If you have for example امين, used several times in the shorter surahs, then it speaks of having a (substantial) realization, e.g. "Aha! I understand/realize (this) now". This is also as I perceive how Moses responded the Rabb in the ayah in question.

Kafar is slightly more controversial than yours. I feel it implies more on the production of something than to cover something up, suppress or deny. The Rabb is furious about blasted fabricators than of someone who chooses to disbelieve. The hateful passages towards kafaroon are simply disproportionate to their failure to realize there is a "higher intelligence". On the other hand I can give empathy and sympathy to the Rabb for anger with fabricators, i.e. a person who either lies or bases his or her foundation on conjecture.

Anyway, we both hopefully do the will of the Rabb and we dispute on mere formalities. I have some different perception considered the being of Allah and that is rather than treating the Rabb separately I claim that we should be absorbed in what is Allah and thus synchronously do the will of Allah rather than exist separately ourselves. I see no use in projecting Allah as an image of anything in Heaven or Earth since Allah is all existence.

Most people on the forum think this or that about my regard of Allah which Rabb I do the will of wholeheartedly in spite of what people think.

And I take عبد do mean submission and سلم to be confident/reliant/safe/whole/peaceful/harmonious. Aslama Lrabb is to trust (have faith in) the Rabb. It all circulates around faithfulness. Faith is security and you put your security to Allah. That is still not submission by definition but to depend on Allah.

Ok highly my controversial argument, but سلم as according to me is "Conscious To Thereof" (where "thereof" obviously depends on context/mental image). I worked for months to reach an understanding and personal consensus on that and this is the present one. But it can, if right, testify that Salam means you have something to depend on, a shelter, safety.

Not sure why it is so twisted up, but it seems like someone knew what the text was supposed to say but mixed up the words.

But of course, you may as most everyone else consider it conjecture. I wish you salam anyway.

Salaam
Title: Re: salat discussion
Post by: Timotheus on October 12, 2015, 09:40:19 PM
can you please explain exactly what this apparent 'most powerful argument' is?

i dont see any contradiction or opposition to Salat = Contact Prayer in the verses you mentioned
Title: Re: salat discussion1
Post by: Wakas on October 22, 2015, 02:06:17 PM
can you please explain exactly what this apparent 'most powerful argument' is?

See:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Since writing the article, the only somewhat plausible explanation given, albeit weak in my view, is that these verses are referring to an exception to no compulsion in deen/etc. If one can accept such a critical exception being mentioned in an indirect manner, and having no precedence in Quran, then fair enough - each to their own view.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: NewFrenzy on September 03, 2017, 07:53:48 AM
peace tanveer, majidah,

Please check out the following thread:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=866


Wakas
Page not found  :brickwall:
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 03, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
I think that link was referring to this:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: aliahmednoor on September 14, 2017, 12:38:53 PM
Prayer is one of the central elements of Islamic practice and worship. Indeed, it is the second of the Five Pillars of Islam and, along with the testimony of faith, the pilgrimage to Mecca, fasting the month of Ramadan and paying the poor tax, forms the essential framework of religious life for Muslims.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on September 26, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
Prayer is one of the central elements of Islamic practice and worship. Indeed, it is the second of the Five Pillars of Islam and, along with the testimony of faith, the pilgrimage to Mecca, fasting the month of Ramadan and paying the poor tax, forms the essential framework of religious life for Muslims.

May God increase your knowledge and may you start seeking the truth in an unbiased manner.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on October 01, 2017, 08:10:46 PM
One thing to consider is that "al mushrikeen" doesnt mean "polytheists" (per se as per an English dictionary definition.) Shias and Sunnis are mushrikeen since they set up idols next to God and uphold hadith and the so-called sunna and sharia - sunnas/ways and sharias/laws other than that of God! Mushrikeen as described in the Quran did know that God was the creator of the heavens and the earth. They just set up idols beside Him. You could similarly replace them with "Sunnis" in that verse. Can Sunnis not do "al salat" ?either in the sectarian "Islam" way or in the way of upholding God's law and/or reciting The Reading - just because they are mushrikeen/idolators?

See 29:61-29:65, 16:35
See 8:35 which mentions that ingrates/disavowers engaged in salat but did so insincerely.

Also, The Reading mentions the command to follow the creed of Abraham frequently - perhaps the people at the time knew of him and salat?

That being said, this is not to prove that salat = ritual prayer as sectarians do. However, what is so hard to understand/believe that mushrikeen can recite the Quran and turn towards peacefulness and stop agresssing in the deen (peacefulness) by upholding their oaths in the truce/peace treaty? Or even to just recite The Reading regularly or something related to monotheism/peacefulness that could benefit their life?

I do see that 9:10-12 can be seen in different ways: either that they became monotheist or simply that adopted peace/peacefulness or something else they learned through hearing the words of God (9:6) since they were agressive before and now switch to peacefulness.

9:10 They neither respect the ties of kinship nor a pledge for any those who acknowledge. These are the transgressors

9:11 If they repent, and they hold the salat, and they bring forth the zakat, then they are your brothers in the deen. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

The deen is peacefulness.

9:12 If they break their oaths after their pledge, and they taunt and attack your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.

Since they reverted to war and aggression and rejected peacefulness, they went back on their oaths and are those kafirs mentioned.

Attacking monotheists/mumineen makes one a kafir. These verses may not mean that they were mushrikeen throughout - and most certainly not all of them were kafirs/ingrates/disavowers.

Another verse to note from before this is:

9:6 If any of those who have set up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know.

Perhaps this is related to engaging in salat and upholding peacefulness and thus bringin gabout self-development/self-improvement/purification/betterment/zakat.

Furthermore, why can't TWB mean turning to God? Just because "they" is used to refer to the same group as mushrikeen and then positively doing salat and then negatively again breaking their oaths -why does this have to imply that they are still in a state of being mushrikeen while doing salat? Perhaps it can also mean turning to the truth by reading The Reading and also by upholding peacefulness without accepting all that it entails to be one who trusts/mumineen and upholding everything in the Reading.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Man of Faith on October 04, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
Shirk means to be associated, and the word can be used positively as well as negatively. It is not necessarily wrong being Mushrikeen depending on in what context.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: progressive1993 on October 06, 2017, 12:57:52 PM
I have read the verses again and have made some new inferences. I will present my new findings and interpretation. It is helpful if we look at these verses in phases and first agree on certain premises and principles.

Premises and principles:
a. the "deen" is peacefulness

b. those who believe in God can set up partners with God. You can live your whole life thinking you believe when in fact you are an idolator.

c. those who set up partners are not necessarily disavowers ("kafireen") - if they fight the monotheist believers, they become/are referenced as such

d. people who set up partners are free to do so without getting a punishment

e. the only time believers/trusters are allowed to fight them is in self-defense and in pursuit to end oppression

f. no person shall bear the burden of another

g. God is most wise and most merciful

What we will see:
God is in fact being very merciful and giving the idolators a very fair chance.

Phase 1: Cease and desist, aggressors!

9:1 This is an ultimatum from God and His messenger to those who set up partners with whom you had entered a treaty.

9:2 Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the ingrates.

The meat of the ultimatum:
9:3 A declaration from God and His messenger to the people, on this, the day of the greater debate/convention/hajj: "That God and His messenger are free from obligation to those who set up partners (al mushrikeena.)" If you (plural) "tubtum," then it is better for you, but if you "tawalla"/turn away, then know that you will not escape God. Promise the those who disavowed (alatheena kafaroo) a painful retribution.

The exception to the ultimatum/retribution and explanation of what happened - the reason for the ultimatum:
9:4 Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall fulfill their terms until they expire. God loves the observant.

Summary of Phase 1:
a. Clearly this is a warning to those who set up partners - a warning in the sense that idolators still have the chance to "tubtum" i.e. return to what is right, repent from their aggression.

b. The reason for the ultimatum is given in 9:4 - idolators attacked the believers/trusters and thus/and broke their oaths.

c. Notice the change of how God calls them "mushrikeena" first and then in the instance that they do not "tubtum" He calls them "alatheena kafaroo" because it is talking abouth te consequences of these people not accepting the ultimatum/their old oath/treaty. We have clearly established that they are an aggressive group and are disavowers if they continue and must be attacked.

d. They are to be attacked as per the law of self-defence if they do not accept the ultimatum, which is only there in the first place because of their aggression.

e. Notice that this is still during the restriction. Believers are not told to fight them yet. In fact, peace and justice is sought.

f. There is nothing unfair here. They are the aggressors. God is giving them a chance - and not their last chance at that! Indeed, God is the Most Merciful.


Phase 2: The consequences of aggression, but forgiveness for those who do not wish to fight the trusters/"believers" and even for those who desist after wanting to fight

9:5 Once the restricted months have passed, then you may kill/confront/fight those who have set up partners wherever you find them, take them, surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they taboowa, aqeemu al salat, and atawoo al zakat, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

Again, an exception is given:

9:6 If any of those who have set up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know.

9:7 How can those who have set up partners have a pledge with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge near/during/in the presence of  al masjid al haram. As long as they are upright with you, be upright with them. God loves the observant.

9:8 How is it that if they ever defeated you they would neither respect neither any rights of kinship nor any pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and most of them are corrupt.

9:9 They trade away God?s revelations for petty gains and hinder people from His path. They spread inequity/are vicious.

9:10 They neither respect the ties of kinship nor a pledge for any those who acknowledge. These are the transgressors.

9:11 If they return to good/repent ("tawaboo"), and they uphold the salat, and they bring forth/give/cause the zakat, then they are your brothers in the system/doctrine (i.e. peacefulness.) We explain the signs for a people who know.

Summary of Phase 2:

a. Those who are not part of the exception of returning to good/repenting, shall be fought as per 9:5

b. Even then, those who do not aggress in phase 2 are given yet another chance: They may seek protection and hear the "words of God" - can also mean "command of God" - this could very well include the overall message of peace, upholding your oaths, etc. Note: It only says hearing the word of God. It does not say they need to make obeaisance/submission/acknowledgement ("sujjud") - they are guaranteed safe passage.

c. It is emphasized that the idolators do not regard their pledges nor ties, would not be as just as God and the "mumineen" and most/a significant amount are not peaceful/honest. The bad ones are referred to as "transgressors" - not the good ones.

d. After transgressing twice in phase 2, they can still have forgiveness! However, this time they will need, in addition to "tawaboo," uphold the salat and bring forth the zakat. The way this can be understood is that they need to formally meet with the believers and the messenger and they will hear God's words. They would need to make "sujjud" and acknowledge peace. This is not a violation of 2:256 since they have cotinued aggression upon aggression and have been given non-salat chances. This is supposed to be the last resort. The result will be to bring forth purification/self-development/development of the situation overall. They are given this chance twice in this phase - it needs to be emphasized.

e. The deen is peacefulness. Uphold peace, learn from upholding the salat with the believers and thus be a brother in the deen. Does this mean they convert?  I do no want to make a conclusion at this point.


Phase 3: Enough is enough. They are just using the peaceful system.

9:12 But if they break their oaths after their pledge, and they taunt and attack your system/doctrine; then you may kill/fight the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.

Aggressors must be fought. This isnt unjust.

9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are those who acknowledge.

Going to skip forward to and end at this:

9:17 It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain God's masajid while they bear witness over their own disavowal ("kufr"). For these, their works have fallen, and in the fire they will abide.

9:18 Rather, the masajid of God are maintained by the one who acknowledges God and the Last day, uphold/establish the salat, brings forth the zakat, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

Summary of Phase 3:

a. They get what they deserve after so many chances
b. Notice the "al kufri" in 9:12 because they taunt and attack the system of peacefulness
c. Furthermore, breaking of oaths is emphasized again along with intending to expel the messenger and them attacking the mumineen first.
d. Fighting them is a last resort. And then the clear message is given: "perhaps they will then cease" - i.e. if they finally stop after being defeated, then all can return to normal.
e. Notice again how "kufr" is discussed in 9:17 since they continually attack the monotheists.
f. Notice how in 9:18 it says that the trusters/believers/those who acknowledge (in this translation) are not only told to uphold/establish the salat and bring forth the zakat, but also that "he does not feat except God." Fearing God and any other such positive result other than stopping fighting is not mentioned when talking about the idolators establishing salat and bringing forth the zakat.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: NK on March 31, 2018, 02:52:31 AM
Peace Wakas,

I have read your article and read this thread but still I have a question. My apology if i missed anything which was already explained in the thread. Your understanding helped me to understand those controversial verses. I know it is an old thread and I appreciated if you answer my question.

My question is simple. What is the relationship of chapter 5 verse 33 with above discussion?. Is there any relationship or they are separate verses with no relationship with above discussion

Salam.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on March 31, 2018, 03:34:22 AM
peace NK,

From the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Quote
The situation in 9:1-12 is similar to the thief [5:38-39] and those who fight against The God and His messenger [5:33-34], they are not required to convert, they are required to repent and amend, i.e. it is not necessary for them to become Muslim, as this would be absurd. Nor are they required to repent to The God, because this would imply there are no disbelieving thieves, an impossibility. That is why there is no 'ila/to' mentioned in the context, just like in 9:3, 9:5, 9:11. 'The reading' could have easily used 'ila/to' if that was actually the intended meaning, like it did in 66:4 for example, but it didn't.
If repenting to The God or converting to Muslim was required then imagining a workable example in a real-life situation is difficult. The reader is strongly recommended to think of real-life situations.

Quote
9:6 If we accept conversion as one of the options, lets look at the solution apparently suggested:

1) The polytheists convert to Muslims, uphold/maintain the prayer and bring forth the betterment.
OR
2) They can seek protection, without the need to give an apology, no re-commitment to the treaty, no compensation, delivered to safety/security, nothing in return except having to ask for protection.

This is extremely unlikely, especially when considering the firm tone of the verses. The only way the above can be made plausible is if option (2) actually refers to delivering them to their safety/security, i.e. out with the community/land, i.e. banishment. From my understanding of the verses and taking into account 5:33, this is what is recommended. But if this is chosen for those who hold the salat=prayer view, then it means people either convert to Muslims or are banished from the land/community. Is this likely?

Or did you mean something other than the above?
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: NK on March 31, 2018, 03:47:34 AM
Peace Wakas,

I think I was not clear in my question. I mean, the punishment states in 5:33-34 is not same as 9:5-6. I mean that part of 5:33 "that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land".

Is God talking about same thing in both verses?
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on April 02, 2018, 04:53:04 AM

Is God talking about same thing in both verses?

To answer that question, we have to consider: does Quran use same wording/phrasing in both verses (i.e. in both verses describe them as "...allatheenayuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna feeal-ardi fasadan...")? Yes/No.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: NK on April 02, 2018, 05:09:10 AM
No.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: bookish on September 19, 2018, 04:54:05 AM
Sorry for resuming an old thread. I read the original article and it's quite persuasive in it's conclusion that prayer/worship isn't the only meaning for Salat. It's a word with multiple meanings depending on the context.

But it would really help if you could write another article to explain how timed Salat is to be done based on the Quran. Does it only involve reading the Quran? If that's so, how can you be 100% sure? Is there no basis in the Quran for performing Salat the way it's traditionally done (standing, reciting Al-Fatiha, bowing down)?

There are several articles by other Quran-alone monotheists on this site that establish timed Salat as a form of prayer, and that it clearly involves a position of standing and bowing down. What are your thoughts about such articles?

On the other hand, reading the Quran also makes a lot of sense because many traditional Muslims don't read the Quran to actually understand it. And many of them pray in the traditional way but are otherwise not mindful of God; they just do it as a ritual or formality, especially the Friday prayer. I find it very fascinating that the Quran can be interpreted in such a new manner that makes so much of sense.

Another thing I've noticed is this, and this is a personal observation: Sometimes when I'm praying, I get distracted and just feel as if I'm doing a ritual. It seems forced sometimes, but it might also be that my faith isn't so strong. I currently pray thrice a day in English. I recite Sura Al-Fatiha and prostrate, twice (2 rakaats or units).

But when I read the Quran or read about God's signs (scientific stuff), it makes me more aware and mindful of God. Even just visiting these forums and reading the discussions about the Quran makes me feel more aware of God.

It is also interesting to note that the Koran does not say anywhere that we should recite Surah Al-Fatiha during prayer and pray two units.

Thanks!
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 19, 2018, 07:59:31 AM
peace,


But it would really help if you could write another article to explain how timed Salat is to be done based on the Quran.

I wrote a basic article a while back: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
I was in the process of writing a much more detailed article, and I may resume it at some point in the future.

Quote
Does it only involve reading the Quran? If that's so, how can you be 100% sure? Is there no basis in the Quran for performing Salat the way it's traditionally done (standing, reciting Al-Fatiha, bowing down)?

It's difficult to be 100% sure, but if we are going by Quran then there is very limited evidence for the common salat/prayer format. Bear in mind there is some overlap.



Quote
There are several articles by other Quran-alone monotheists on this site that establish timed Salat as a form of prayer, and that it clearly involves a position of standing and bowing down. What are your thoughts about such articles?

I have never seen one with any convincing evidence. As I said there is limited evidence for such an understanding, so all of those articles use that limited evidence and extrapolate from it, to arrive at the pre-conceived notion they have of salat as a ritual prayer.

Whilst there are some differences in understanding one should consider the significance, if any, of such differences in the big scheme of things. Both are remembering/mentioning God, using Quran for their source material, and aiming to live by what they reading from it.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: reel on September 24, 2018, 11:51:40 AM



Whilst there are some differences in understanding one should consider the significance, if any, of such differences in the big scheme of things. Both are remembering/mentioning God, using Quran for their source material, and aiming to live by what they reading from it.


Do you see any link between contact and "call upon Allah" mentioned in several verses? I also noticed believers   most often are talking to him.  I think this is one of the clearest instructions about salat:

Say, "Invoke Allah or invoke the Most Gracious. By whatever name you invoke, to Him belongs the Most Beautiful Names. And do not be loud in your prayers and not be silent therein, but seek between that a way." 7:194

I feel id'ʿu should be translated as "call" and not invoke. This way we get:
Say, "Call Allah or Call the Most Gracious. By whatever name you call, to Him belongs the Most Beautiful Names. And do not be loud in your contact and not be silent therein, but seek between that a way. " 7:194


Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Wakas on September 24, 2018, 01:30:12 PM
Do you see any link between contact and "call upon Allah" mentioned in several verses?

I'm not sure what you mean but a "bond" (or contact) involves a relationship between two (or more) entities. To "call upon Allah", to praise/magnify Allah, to seek God's guidance, to read/recite God's guidance etc are all in a similar area, hence me saying there is some overlap between understandings.
Title: Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
Post by: Makaveli on September 24, 2018, 03:04:50 PM
To pray is to meditate/contemplate/focus/concentrate and to establish healthy thinking patterns to live in harmony with universal law (God). It does not necessarily mean literally to pronounce words and call upon him. Pray means to form an image, that's what the word from root SL means, an image behind a problem to contemplate upon and to harmonize your thoughts. That's what basmala is for, for its purpose is harmony of mind, to find your purpose in life and remind yourself of your personal task in universal law. That is why every chapter starts with basmala, to give you a hint on how to read the rest of it.