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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: centi50 on June 15, 2021, 06:24:26 AM

Title: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on June 15, 2021, 06:24:26 AM
Salam to all


24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof;37 hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.38 And let them not display [more of] their charms to any but their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands' fathers, or their sons, or their husbands' Sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or those whom they rightfully possess, or such male attendants as are beyond all sexual desire,39 or children that are as yet unaware of women's nakedness; and let them not swing their legs [in walking] so as to draw attention to their hidden charms40 And [always], O you believers - all of you - turn unto God in repentance, so that you might attain to a happy state!41


Lanes lexicon also say khimar can be a women head cover.
So the translation of Muhammad Asad is right to draw their head covering over their bosom

See the link of a woman covering from covering her head till her chest

So women should wear khimar (head cover all the way to cover their chest like the picture In the link


My question is why cant khimar be head cover

Second question what is this adornment that should not be displayed except what is not apparent





https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/49/ba/7a49baf54d47554e713695021e7921f9.jpg

Please someone explain this verse clearly

Because I can see the order is to cover the from head till chest as can be seen in the link given

God bless all
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Wakas on June 15, 2021, 08:06:24 AM
You said:
Quote
Lanes lexicon also say khimar can be a women head cover.
So the translation of Muhammad Asad is right to draw their head covering over their bosom

See the link of a woman covering from covering her head till her chest

So women should wear khimar (head cover all the way to cover their chest like the picture In the link

Even if it did mean head-cover here the command is to cover the chest not the head.

See:
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=34
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: jkhan on June 15, 2021, 10:47:26 AM
You said:
Even if it did mean head-cover here the command is to cover the chest not the head.

See:
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=34

Peace brother Waqas...
That's a good article.. I appreciate you did it..

I have read this article long back but when I read today those concerned verses some new questions popped up...

1... What is that beauty that husband and father or sons etc are permitted if seen not issue.. For example for public, suppose what is apparent is like full face with head,  hands up to elbow, legs up to as anckle.. Then what is beyond that fathers sons even strangly husband also in that list.. What can a son see from his mother in general beyond what is normally apparent.. Just for my knowledge and get what your view and even others.. You classified to two type.. How and what actually made you to classify.. Actually it seems good classification... But is it within Quran.. For example classification. Two.. Hip.. In countries where women wear Saree, showing hip or even the tummy is mostly common and is much apparently exposed body part.. And no body cares... BTW it is not even a modern dress... Even upper back lower back.. You have listed what is apparent body parts ..i agree.. But may be you can add hip tummy or upper back.. If seeing hip makes one sexually arousing then seeing a beautiful lips of a woman as well more than that.. Yes.. Lowering gaze always would help.. But can we classify Or are we allowed to classy thus. . I think what is apparent should depend on the dress what each culture is commonly wearing.. As I stated above Saree.. Most of what you classified in group 2 should then jump to group 1 ...

But Quran clearly indicates to cover private parts... What 100% private part fir women.. If women go with tiny short and bra she has covered her private parts.. No one can call she is nude.. Or not covered private parts.. Definitely she has.. Bit such dress doesn't seem encouraged in Quran.. Coz why lower your gaze while you yourself wearing exposing 80% of your body... So Quran clearly indicates to wear modestly.. That's for sure... But I am not honestly sure to classify what is apparent and not.. It depends on culture.. But if culture is nude.. Then clear no according to Quran..

2... Let the Khamar be whatever... Honestly I don't know what cloth that is. . But point to ponder is,  For what purpose women were wearing  those days this piece of cloth and where in the body they were wearing to drag the same piece of cloth to cover the chest as well...drag from up or down of chest.. Were they wearing this khamar for beauty or for climate condition.. Is there any kind of cloth that is worn below the chest which is dragged to the chest to cover it.. Can you just give me one example of any such clothes women wearing yester year or modern days... If not it seems something worn above chest.. Or is this khamar not at all regularly worn piece of cloth, but quickly worn just to show more respect infront of someone...

3... Why wives of Prophet and daughters mentioned and then only wives of believers and NOT mentioned daughters of believers .. Was it only to that particular community and not relevant to entire believers after that..

4...what connection with those passed child bearing and those who not willing to marry... Earlier could most probably old women but not later example...


Btw.... Clearly in these verses three tyoe of clothes mentioned.. One is out garment which completely covers so no one can notice anything in women.. Apart from what is normally apparent in that culture.  ..
Second Normal clothes... Removing it can show what apparently not visible..
Third khamar..
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Noon waalqalami on June 15, 2021, 11:46:45 AM
My question is why cant khimar be head cover

peace,

بخمرهن bikhumurihinna/with cover/shroud/cloth/garment/cloak/sheet/veil/shawl/scarf, etc., theirs (f/p)

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

(https://i.postimg.cc/L9hbv24G/ch24v26-31.jpg)

3... Why wives of Prophet and daughters mentioned and then only wives of believers and NOT mentioned daughters of believers

4:7 ... وللنسا walilnnisai/and for the womenfolk (i.e. includes all females, wives, daughters, etc.) نصىب share ...

4:11 ىوصىكم instructed you الله the god فى in اولدكم offspring (children) yours للذكر to the male (son) مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (females/daughters) فان so if كن be/are (f/p) نسا nisaan/womenfolk فوق over اثنتىن two (i.e. females/daughters; if 3+) فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left وان and if كانت be she وحده one (female i.e. daughter) فلها so for her النصف the half ...

33:59 ىاىها O you النبى the prophet قل say لازوجك li-azwajika/to spouses your (sing.) وبناتك wabanatika/and daughters your (sing.) ونسا wanisai/and womenfolk (i.e. includes all females, wives, daughters, etc.) المومنىن the believers
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on June 15, 2021, 04:33:03 PM
You said:
Even if it did mean head-cover here the command is to cover the chest not the head.

See:
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=34


Salam wakaa,

They are told to draw their headcovers upto there chest and use same clothe they used to cover the head. You can see in my other post the pic link
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: reel on June 15, 2021, 06:46:44 PM

Salam wakaa,

They are told to draw their headcovers upto there chest and use same clothe they used to cover the head. You can see in my other post the pic link

Reread Wakas' article. As he points out, the command is for specific situation. The covering literally screams, "I'm surrounded by perverts/rapists". Not very diff from the misconception that every muslim is a terrorist.

That lady in the image doesnt accurately depict the verse. She isnt covering her bossoms with the cloth. It is also best to take this into account:

In the year '53 we really wanted to compromise with the Muslim Brotherwood if they were willing to be reasonable. And I met the head of the Muslim Brotherhood and he sat with me and made his resquests. What did he request ? The first thing he asked for was to make wearing a hijab mandatory in Egypt and demand that every woman walking in the street wear a tarha (scarf). [crowd laughing] Every woman walking! [Someone from the crowd shouts ''Let him wear it!'' the crowd applauds and laughs] If I make that a law, they will say that we have returned to the days of Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah who forbade people from walking at day and only allowed walking at night. And my opinion is that every person in his own housedecide sfor himself the rules and he replied ''No, as a leader, you are responsible''. I told him, ''Sir, you have a daughter in the School of Medicine and she's not wearing a tarha''. [crowd laughing] ''Why didn't you make her wear a tarha? [crowd applause] If you are unable to make one girl - who is your daughter - wear the tarha, you want me to put a tarha on 10 million women? Myself? [laughs with crowd]''.

I copied the transcript from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIqdrFeFBk
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on June 16, 2021, 06:44:27 AM
Salam to all

I bumped into this

https://youtu.be/szFUfYHDe34

Saudis are relaxing dress code

Please also take note on how Iranians cover their head. Head not fully covered

God bless all
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Amra94 on June 16, 2021, 03:36:27 PM
24:31
I'm also still wondering what the adornment is that you can reveal to family, father in law etc. If you're not supposed to fully cover then what do you wear out vs in front of the people mentioned.
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: jkhan on June 16, 2021, 03:59:42 PM
peace,

بخمرهن bikhumurihinna/with cover/shroud/cloth/garment/cloak/sheet/veil/shawl/scarf, etc., theirs (f/p)

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

(https://i.postimg.cc/L9hbv24G/ch24v26-31.jpg)

4:7 ... وللنسا walilnnisai/and for the womenfolk (i.e. includes all females, wives, daughters, etc.) نصىب share ...

4:11 ىوصىكم instructed you الله the god فى in اولدكم offspring (children) yours للذكر to the male (son) مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the two (females/daughters) فان so if كن be/are (f/p) نسا nisaan/womenfolk فوق over اثنتىن two (i.e. females/daughters; if 3+) فلهن so for them (f/p) ثلثا third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) ما what ترك left وان and if كانت be she وحده one (female i.e. daughter) فلها so for her النصف the half ...

33:59 ىاىها O you النبى the prophet قل say لازوجك li-azwajika/to spouses your (sing.) وبناتك wabanatika/and daughters your (sing.) ونسا wanisai/and womenfolk (i.e. includes all females, wives, daughters, etc.) المومنىن the believers

Peace  NW...
Absolutely you are right.. I used to see Arabic Quran... But this time I only read article of waqas and it is written wife.. So raised the concerned question...  Thank you.. Btw I think better brother waqas if you change women in place of wives... If you think so only.. One question is answered..
God bless you .
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: reel on June 16, 2021, 06:13:40 PM
24:31
I'm also still wondering what the adornment is that you can reveal to family, father in law etc.

Adornment in Quran typically is called to fashionable wear and sparkling stuffs. See:

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

28:79 So he came out before his people in his adornment. Those who desired the worldly life said, "Oh, would that we had like what was given to Qarun. Indeed, he is one of great fortune."

Quote
If you're not supposed to fully cover then what do you wear out vs in front of the people mentioned.

Middle path is the best. The other two extremes contribute to oppression and safety concern.
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: jkhan on June 16, 2021, 08:49:50 PM
Adornment in Quran typically is called to fashionable wear and sparkling stuffs. See:

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

28:79 So he came out before his people in his adornment. Those who desired the worldly life said, "Oh, would that we had like what was given to Qarun. Indeed, he is one of great fortune."

Middle path is the best. The other two extremes contribute to oppression and safety concern.

Peace Reel...

Everyone knows Arabic word Zeenath is adornment etc... But your suggestion that in these verses Zeenath means artificial adornment abd not natural adornment of women is definitely has the best befitting meaning... I never thought of it all these time... Did you know about this for long time sis?

I am really feeling satisfied about it... Isn't gorgeous two eyes and sexy lips of women not not arousing feelings of men.. Men knows.. Then why to keep opening it...  So..  I feel now that modest dress in public  but inside the women may wear all the adornmentts she wishes... But not expose them in public... But by chance anything exposed it doesn't matter.. That's probably what God means "aparent"... So ehrn they come home.. They can relax and be adorned with all adornment what a woman prefers to... So family members seeing her in glittering manner is not an issue... Women with best of dresses and jewelleries always look 10 times better than her natural beauty... So it doesn't befit in public specially  in streets.. But may befit for any functions.. Coz everyone wears.. For example in a sancturaly(masjid) ... Or in a function...  But in streets to show off while others wear normal cloth is not preferable and it is only puting herself at risk... Khamar has a point as well.. Covering chest has meaning.. Women in general the best jewellery is worn in her neck upto chest even the dress best part is around chest theor only all decorations are much applied.. Probably cover them in public..

That befits with the verse relaxing dress for those who passed age of childbirth and those who not willing to marry.. They can relax with dress then their artificial adornments are exposed.. But it doesn't matter.. One reason people (Men)  knows already they are old and not interested  marriage... But if they cover better..

So all in all what I understood in a nutshell is wear modest dress in general public not in functions.. But always be adorned it is women's freedom.. But don't expose unnecessarily except to certain group...
If daughter of anyone wear in style and with lovely jewelleries and be like a queen inside home, don't that make the rest of the family members happy.. They are the people allowed to see the Zeenath of her..

It is nothing to do with natural body parts.. Privates parts are always needed to be covered..
Thank you sister Reel.. I think for me it makes sense..
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: reel on June 17, 2021, 12:19:06 PM
Peace Reel...

Everyone knows Arabic word Zeenath is adornment etc... But your suggestion that in these verses Zeenath means artificial adornment abd not natural adornment of women is definitely has the best befitting meaning... I never thought of it all these time... Did you know about this for long time sis?

lol, no, only after coming to Quran alone I took a deeper look into how the word adornment was used in other verses. At first, I focused only on the idea that the verse never mentions covering of hair.

I am really feeling satisfied about it... Isn't gorgeous two eyes and sexy lips of women not not arousing feelings of men.. Men knows.. Then why to keep opening it... 

You are 100% right. I guess that's why, in the end, they came up with this:

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The woman is ‘awrah and when she goes out the Shaytaan gets his hopes up.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1173).

Al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi (936): It is saheeh.



Quote
So..  I feel now that modest dress in public  but inside the women may wear all the adornmentts she wishes... But not expose them in public... But by chance anything exposed it doesn't matter.. That's probably what God means "aparent"... So ehrn they come home.. They can relax and be adorned with all adornment what a woman prefers to... So family members seeing her in glittering manner is not an issue... Women with best of dresses and jewelleries always look 10 times better than her natural beauty... So it doesn't befit in public specially  in streets.. But may befit for any functions.. Coz everyone wears.. For example in a sancturaly(masjid) ... Or in a function...  But in streets to show off while others wear normal cloth is not preferable and it is only puting herself at risk... Khamar has a point as well.. Covering chest has meaning.. Women in general the best jewellery is worn in her neck upto chest even the dress best part is around chest theor only all decorations are much applied.. Probably cover them in public..

That befits with the verse relaxing dress for those who passed age of childbirth and those who not willing to marry.. They can relax with dress then their artificial adornments are exposed.. But it doesn't matter.. One reason people (Men)  knows already they are old and not interested  marriage... But if they cover better..

So all in all what I understood in a nutshell is wear modest dress in general public not in functions.. But always be adorned it is women's freedom.. But don't expose unnecessarily except to certain group...
If daughter of anyone wear in style and with lovely jewelleries and be like a queen inside home, don't that make the rest of the family members happy.. They are the people allowed to see the Zeenath of her..

It is nothing to do with natural body parts.. Privates parts are always needed to be covered..
Thank you sister Reel.. I think for me it makes sense..

You're welcome.  :)

But thanks to you too for the rational details. They are needed.
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Wakas on June 18, 2021, 04:22:13 AM
The translation of 33:59 has been changed on the site now, to "woman" instead of "wives".
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: jkhan on June 18, 2021, 08:28:30 PM
The translation of 33:59 has been changed on the site now, to "woman" instead of "wives".

WomEn to be exact :handshake:
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on June 19, 2021, 04:03:10 AM
Adornment in Quran typically is called to fashionable wear and sparkling stuffs. See:

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

28:79 So he came out before his people in his adornment. Those who desired the worldly life said, "Oh, would that we had like what was given to Qarun. Indeed, he is one of great fortune."

Middle path is the best. The other two extremes contribute to oppression and safety concern.

Salam to all

What is the clothing of righteousness?how does it look like

God bless all
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Noon waalqalami on June 19, 2021, 02:36:01 PM
Adornment in Quran typically is called to fashionable wear and sparkling stuffs. See:

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

28:79 So he came out before his people in his adornment. Those who desired the worldly life said, "Oh, would that we had like what was given to Qarun. Indeed, he is one of great fortune."

Middle path is the best. The other two extremes contribute to oppression and safety concern.

What is the clothing of righteousness?how does it look like

peace,

not about expensive jewelry or Gucci clothes; use context.

likewise, issues with translations comparing different words.

7:26 ورىشا warishan/and fashion of ولباس and garment التقوى the righteous (e.g. pure mindset)
7:31 ىبنى O children ادم Adam خذوا take ye of زىنتكم zinatakum/adornment (opulence; clothes, etc.) yours

24:31
 او or التبعىن the attendants غىر other than اولى holders الاربه the desire من from الرجل the menfolk
 او or الطفل the young الذىن the ones لم not ىظهروا cognizant they of على on عورات private النسا the womenfolk
 ولا and not ىضربن striketh they بارجلهن with feet theirs لىعلم to revealed ما what ىخفىن hided they من from زىنتهن zinatihinna/adornment (i.e. sexual opulence) theirs (f/p)

28:79 فخرج so came out على upon قومه folk his فى in زىنته zinatihi/adornment (opulence) his

33:28 ىاىها O you النبى the prophet قل say لازوجك to spouses your
 ان if كنتن be you تردن desire الحىه the life الدنىا the world وزىنتها wazinataha/and adornment (opulence) its
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: reel on June 21, 2021, 12:06:21 AM


24:31
 او or التبعىن the attendants غىر other than اولى holders الاربه the desire من from الرجل the menfolk
 او or الطفل the young الذىن the ones لم not ىظهروا cognizant they of على on عورات private النسا the womenfolk
 ولا and not ىضربن striketh they بارجلهن with feet theirs لىعلم to revealed ما what ىخفىن hided they من from زىنتهن zinatihinna/adornment (i.e. sexual opulence) theirs (f/p)


Sexual opulence is a metaphor. There is actually a technical term in fashion called feminine adornment. Usage:

Quote
Concern about the adornment of the feminine body, that is dress, jewellery, cosmetics and other adornments, already appears in the Roman period and it is a recurrent theme in Christian texts during the institutionalisation of Christianity.

Hesiodin his Theogony and in Works and Days makes a suggestive description of Pandorain which her ornamentation is emphasised. Pandorais moulded by Hephaestus and adorned by Athena. The latter adorns her with silver clothing, an intelligent veil, garlands of flowers and a crown made by Hephaestus. This is the first characteristic of Pandora, adornment. The second, related to the first, is falsity. Zeussends Pandorato Epimetheus as a trick because Prometheus, brother of Epimetheus, had stolen the divine Olympic fire to give it to men. Pandora, symbol of the uncontrolled woman and, therefore, feared, opens the box or jar (píthos) that contains the evils of the world.

Later, Tertullian, who lived between the second and third centuries, in De cultu feminarum, states that adornments are suitable for the woman, Eve, who is condemned and is dead, to cover over her death and to dress her up to give splendour to her funeral. The medieval treatises De ornatu also speak on this subject, as well as other texts, amongst them medieval and modern legal texts, that is, the sumptuary laws.http://www.ub.edu/duoda/diferencia/html/en/secundario6.html

Salam to all

What is the clothing of righteousness?how does it look like

God bless all

Being righteous both inside and outside.
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: Abdul-Hadi on June 23, 2021, 07:55:05 PM
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Just felt like adding this to the conversation.

7:32 Say: "Who has made forbidden the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say: "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on June 26, 2021, 10:07:19 AM
Sexual opulence is a metaphor. There is actually a technical term in fashion called feminine adornment. Usage:

Being righteous both inside and outside.

Salam reel,

How does the righteous garment look like

Is it like Arab thobe? Or pants and shirt long sleeves for men

For women can it be skirt long upto ankles or how. Ontop of your clothes for women then the jibab is another layer of clothes?

God bless
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: reel on July 05, 2021, 03:02:06 AM
Salam reel,

How does the righteous garment look like

 Or pants and shirt long sleeves for men

For women can it be skirt long upto ankles or how.

God bless

Aren't you a Quran follower? I thought we are all here for righteousness.

Btw, the verses in question are about protection during specific times. God isnt prescribing some fashion for reward. Maybe thats why he treates righteousness as a separate thing?

Quote
Is it like Arab thobe?

Ontop of your clothes for women then the jibab is another layer of clothes?


Sure dress up like that if you are going to middle east and staying there for a long time. You dont wanna later deal with asthma, cataracts, severe sun burns, abnormal skin thickening, grey hair.....too many to mention!
Title: Re: Hijab khimar
Post by: centi50 on August 28, 2021, 03:56:07 AM
Aren't you a Quran follower? I thought we are all here for righteousness.

Btw, the verses in question are about protection during specific times. God isnt prescribing some fashion for reward. Maybe thats why he treates righteousness as a separate thing?

Sure dress up like that if you are going to middle east and staying there for a long time. You dont wanna later deal with asthma, cataracts, severe sun burns, abnormal skin thickening, grey hair.....too many to mention!

YES I AM QURAN ONLY BELIEVER