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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 16, 2021, 08:09:24 PM

Title: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 16, 2021, 08:09:24 PM
Salaam to You All My fellow Followers of The Quran and Our Prophet,

I know Ramadan 2021 is coming and I absolutely hate for true believers to perform the WRONG fast at the WRONG time of the year. With Allah's help and permission, I am trying to raise as much awareness as possible among my fellow believers who truly believe in Allah and His verses about the TRUE fasting and the CORRECT time of fasting that Allah has WRITTEN for us in the QURAN. My goal is to stop this incorrect fasting practice that causes so much harm to both body and soul and bears no fruit as evidenced by everything that is happening in the Islamic world.
Please, if you can, watch the following two videos and if you have any questions, let me know. I will be more than glad to answer any questions you might have.

1) This 1st video is a short video and overview of the Quranic fasting:
https://youtu.be/pG6wwBd1OgU

2) In this 2nd video, I discuss fasting in much greater detail and explain 2:187 and give several examples to clarify it for you:
https://youtu.be/PPE4OLwcyHw

Please, do NOT go through this Ramadan without having watched these two videos. Please do NOT harm your body by performing the wrong fast. Fasting in the Quran has nothing to do with eating and drinking. Allah has detailed (WRITTEN) fasting for us in the Quran and has given us two very clear examples about it in the Quran. But the Umayyad associators after the prophet converted the best and happiest month of the year when we have to be celebrating the Quran into a month of hunger, thirst, self torture and technically mourning.

It truly pains my heart to see people doing the wrong fast and I pray to Allah that you could do the right fast this year at the right time, InShaAllah.
May Allah guide us all to His Direct Path.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Iyyaka on February 16, 2021, 11:48:34 PM
Salam Brother,

Thanks for sharing.
But sorry to say that but your post just demonstrates how it is easy to manipulate words of the Quran for anyone who follows his fantasy.
And i was also in the past one of them. (and probably again today even if i am trying to be careful in my conclusion).

The Quran is precise :
- For Myriam it uses the form SAWM (only one time)
- For fasting it uses the form SIYAM.

The goal of the SIYAM is explained in verse 2:183 (laʿallakum tattaqūna)

Verse 2:183 only indicates that fasting is prescribed for the Mumins as it was the case for previous monotheistic communities (Jews in context).

Peace.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 17, 2021, 12:59:18 AM
Thank you for taking the time to comment but I don’t think you watched the full video.

Allah alone is my refuge from manipulating His words.

Sowm is the same as Siyam. Sowm is noun but Siyam is “masdar”. They have the exact same root with no difference at all. If you want we can talk Arabic grammer but I have an easier way to hopefully convince you :)

Let’s focus on the word “YOM”. Do you agree that "YOM" includes both day (Nahar) and night (Layl) in Arabic and in the Quran?

I think that goes without saying for anyone who is familiar with the Quran, right? I am sure you already knew that.

Then you should know that before verse 2:187 was revealed, fasting period (siyam) was 30 AYYAM meaning 30 days plus 30 nights NONSTOP. Do you really think the prophet and his followers would NOT eat and drink for 30 days and 30 nights nonstop and stay alive? Does it even make sense?

I ask one thing from you for Allah: Please watch the 2nd video fully. If I am a lier, you can easily reject it. No harm done. At least you hear some Quran and feel much better about your faith. Maybe you can guide me too. Who knows?

But if what I say is true, InShaAllah you will fast correctly this Ramadan as Allah shows us in the Quran. I also explain 2:187 in that video. 2:187 itself proves that fasting has nothing to do with eating and drinking.

Last but not the least brother: the purpose of fasting is to magnify Allah because of His Guidance (le tulakabberAllah ala ma hadakum 2:185) and also for us to become pious by not lying, not arguing, not backbiting and focusing on Allah and His words during Ramadan.

How does staying hungry and thirsty makes you and I pious and God fearing? If that was the case, then all the homeless people would be the most pious and God fearing ones among us, wouldn’t they?

If you can find me ONE Quranic example of fasting by not eating and drinking, I will make a video and recant everything I have said and owe my guidance to you for the rest of my life.

Peace to you too. All best wishes and thank you for your comment but please watch the second one.

Fasting is so clear in the Quran and Allah gives us two very clear Quranic witnesses about it through Maryam and Zechariah.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 17, 2021, 01:33:48 AM
2) In this 2nd video, I discuss fasting in much greater detail and explain 2:187 and give several examples to clarify it for you:
https://youtu.be/PPE4OLwcyHw

38:00 min https://youtu.be/PPE4OLwcyHw?t=2273

peace, not always it depends on transgression

58:4 (feed 10 poor/10 days)
 فمن so who لم not ىجد find فصىم fasiyamu/so abstinence (fast) شهرىن lunar cycles two...
 فمن so who لم not ىستطع is able فاطعم so feeds ستىن group of (60) مسكىنا poor of
 
5:89 (feed 10 poor/3 days)
 فكفارته so reparation its اطعم feeds عشره group of (10) مسكىن poor...
 فمن so who لم not ىجد find فصىم fasiyamu/so abstinence (fast) ثلثه trio (3) اىام days
   
likewise to abstain depends on context e.g. from arguing, eating and drinking etc.

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

صوم

1 صَامَ , (S, M, &c.,) aor. يَصُومُ, (Msb,) inf. n. صَوْمٌ, and صِيَامٌ; (S, M, Mgh, Msb, K;) and ↓ اِصْطَامَ ; (M, K;) He abstained, (Msb, TA,) in an absolute sense: (Msb:) this is the primary signification: (TA:) [or] this is said to be the signification in the proper language of the Arabs: (Msb:) and in the language of the law, (Msb, TA,) he observed a particular kind of abstinence; (Msb;) i. e. (TA) he abstained from food (S, M, K, TA) and drink (M, K, TA) and coïtus: (M, K:) and (S, * M, &c.) by a tropical application, (TA,) (tropical:) from speech: (S, * M, Mgh, Msb, * K, TA:) or صَوْمٌ in the proper language of the Arabs signifies a man's abstaining from eating: and by a secondary application, a particular serving of God [by fasting]; (Mgh;) [i. e.] the abstaining from eating and drinking and coïtus from daybreak to sunset: (KT:) accord. to Kh, it signifies [properly] the standing without work. (S.) صام الشَّهْرَ means صام فِى الشَّهْرِ [He fasted during the month]: agreeably with what is said in the Kur ii. 181. (TA.) And it is said (S, M) by I'Ab (S) that the saying, in the Kur [xix. 27], (S, M,) إِنِّى نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمٰنِ صَوْمًا means (assumed tropical:) [Verily I have vowed unto the Compassionate] an abstaining from speech. (S, M, Msb.) One says also, صام الفَرَسُ, inf. n. صَوْمٌ (S, M) and صِيَامٌ, (M,) (assumed tropical:) The horse stood without eating of fodder; (S;) or abstained from the eating of fodder. (M, A, Mgh.) And صام عَنِ السَّيْرِ (tropical:) He abstained from going along, or journeying. (TA.) ―


If killed a gazelle or chicken (ate one yesterday) how many days of no talking?

5:95
 او or كفاره reparation طعم sustenance (feed) مسكىن poor او or عدل equitable ذلك such
 صىما  siyaman/abstinence (fast) of لىذوق to taste وبال consequence امره directive his

see 7th line from top next to last word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/95/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/hD1CjVC5/ch5v94-103.jpg)
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Iyyaka on February 17, 2021, 05:39:45 AM
Sowm is the same as Siyam. Sowm is noun but Siyam is “masdar”. They have the exact same root with no difference at all. If you want we can talk Arabic grammer but I have an easier way to hopefully convince you :)
The word siyam, which the Quran here (sura 2) and elswhere uses for "fasting" (from food, drink and sexual relationship) is a masdar of the word ṣâma. Because of the frequent use of ikhtilâf in Arabic, the exchange of wa and ya, the form swam is also possible. But in the Quran the form siyam is almost always used ; sawm appears ony in one place where the translation by "fasting" is, as a matter of fact, not possible. That the forms siyam and sawm are used by the latter Arabs quite at randon and interchgeably is a fact. But the Quran is precise. The word siyam is therefore certaintly a word of Arabic origin. The "illogical" use of sawm in sura 19 shows it means something different (even same roots) :

The atoning fast was known to the Arabs, the Quran testifies to this through its persistence in the Pilgrimage compensation rituals: S2.V196 and S5.V95.  The term ṣiyâm/fasting can therefore be logically linked to the Arabic root ṣâma which originally meant to keep a horse tied up to harden it and thus remain standing without eating, the maṣâm designating the place where it was hindered. On the other hand, the word ṣawm, used only once in connection with Mary in S19.V26, is probably borrowed from Hebrew, perhaps via Syriac, in view of the "fast of speech" practiced by Christian monks and also found in Judaism, such is the case of Mary. We note that this is one of the many examples of nuances of meaning according to the etymologies and their contextualization by the Quran.

Let’s focus on the word “YOM”. Do you agree that "YOM" includes both day (Nahar) and night (Layl) in Arabic and in the Quran?
Yes but it is not an argument.
If I say: "I worked 3 days" it doesn't mean that I worked 3*24 = 72 hours! right ?
And Quran proves us that it is during a time of the full day (from fajr to sunset). So clear..

NB : i have watched the whole video but there's a lot to say.

Peace be upon you
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 17, 2021, 10:58:55 AM
Peace and blessings to you and thank you for your response :)

I just have to clarify that I ONLY AND ONLY believe in Allah and His verses and do NOT follow Hadith or personal opinions of different mufassirs or dictionary writers. Allah tells us that the Quran is there to clarify everything else (Tibyanan le kol e shaiy) not vice versa. Just so you know how I approach the discussion.

You posed the following excellent question and point:

"If killed a gazelle or chicken (ate one yesterday) how many days of no talking?"

Here is the answer: In 2:184, Allah makes it very clear for us in the Quran that each ONE day of fasting can be ransomed (atoned) by feeding ONE person from the average of what we eat, correct?

Back to your example: Let's say a gazelle can feed 10 people and a chicken can feed 2 people for the sake of the example.

Here is the equation summary: ONE day of fasting = feeding ONE person   

We could easily conclude the following:

For the gazelle, the person has to do a fasting (siyam) of 10 days, which includes 10 individual days of fast (sowm).
For the chicken (that you so mercilessly ate the other day  :eat: ;)), the person has to do a fasting (siyam) of 2 days, which includes 2 individual days of fast (sowm).

And of course by fasting I mean NO talking and praising and glorifying Allah just like Maryam and Zechariah fasted as detailed by the Quran for us.


I have a contest and a request: I will send a $100 electronic Amazon gift card or the equivalent if you don't have access to Amazon if anyone in this forum can bring me any of the following from the Quran (not hadith or other opinions):

1) An example in the Quran of someone fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING, OR

2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR

3) An example of an act of piety or righteousness (TAGHWA) mentioned in the Quran that involves NOT EATING AND DRINKING. (Ex. Lying, Bearing the correct testimony, Not accusing people wrongly, Talking nicely to people, Not yelling and screaming and so many others that are ALL directly mentioned in the Quran and
are ALL related to talking and the words that come out of a person's mouth).

Allah is our witness that if anyone brings me one example of the abovementioned 3 items in the Quran, I will keep my word and send you an electronic $100 gift card.


Think about it this way: Allah tells us in the Quran to wash ourselves when we use the restroom. right?
Isn't fasting in Ramadan more important than washing ourselves after using the restroom in your opinion?
If we were supposed to NOT eat and drink for 30 days, wouldn't it be worth for Allah to directly tell us NOT to eat and drink just like he tells us to wash ourselves after restroom?
 
Peace and blessings to you. Thanks for taking the time listening to me in that video. I am so grateful for your time  :hail



Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 17, 2021, 11:17:26 AM

Yes but it is not an argument.
If I say: "I worked 3 days" it doesn't mean that I worked 3*24 = 72 hours! right ?
And Quran proves us that it is during a time of the full day (from fajr to sunset). So clear..

NB : i have watched the whole video but there's a lot to say.

Peace be upon you

Thank you for watching it. The reason why I thought you didn't is that I actually explained the word "YOM" in detail. Lets look at two verses from the Quran together from my video

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)

Example of Zechariah, John The Baptist’s father and Maryam’s teacher
Allah imposed a mandatory 3 day fast on him during which he would NOT be able to talk to any human beings for a consecutive 72-hour period.
But how can we be sure that a YOM also included the night?

2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)

In this verse, Allah puts the emphasis on the nights so we all know that “Yom” includes the night period.
This verse proves without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM”, it means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.

Read both 3:42 and 19:10 and you will know for sure. You sound very educated in Arabic so I am sure you will see that the Quran is very specific and makes it clear that "YOM" does include "Nights" as well. As such, fasting by NOT EATING and DRINKING is completely out of question in the Quran and not even possible due to 2:187.

Also, pay attention that Zechariah SAID (talked about) something he should NOT have said or talked about by doubting Allah for a quick second and asking for a sign. Consequently, Allah taught him a lesson and imposed a fast (NOT TALKING) as an atonement and ransom for 3 days and 3 nights as specified by the Quran.

I hope this helped and thank you for taking the time to respond brother. Peace and blessings to you :bravo: 

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Iyyaka on February 17, 2021, 11:55:13 AM
I just have to clarify that I ONLY AND ONLY believe in Allah and His verses and do NOT follow Hadith or personal opinions of different mufassirs or dictionary writers. Allah tells us ttat the Quran is there to clarify everything else (Tibyanan le kol e shaiy) not vice versa. Just so you know how I approach the discussion.
Hi brother, you seem a good guy and i wish you the best for your life inshallah.

A question : Were you born speaking the Arabic Koranic language directly?
If not, how do you learn the language of the Koran (your methodology)?

Thank you because I am curious to know how you do it even without the classical dictionaries (and sorry if I did not understand the deep meaning of your sentence above).

Quote from: ThelosttruthsofIslam
2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR
Knowing the structure of the Quran is important, especially the flow of discourse.
I invite you to consult my pdf to have a better view of the structure of the passage on fasting in Sura 2 (https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf (https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf)).

The words "Eat and drink" are found in verse [2:187] which deals with the particular theme of sexual intercourse during fasting (permission? under what conditions? restrictions?).
It begins by evoking the time of night. Thus, logically (coz we are in fact at night), the Qur'an calls for "Eat and Drink" (it is permitted at night but only...)
until dawn (represented by the white thread that stands out from the darkness of the night). Then, practice fasting continously (which is in opposition to what is permitted at night: no eating, drinking, or sexual intercourse) until night.
Two distinct phases in the day set in opposition to each other. So, everything is clear when one respects the flow of discourse.

May Allah guide us in a better conduct.
Sorry if i was a little ironic (i hope you have a little bit of humor - otherwise, accept my forgiveness).
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 17, 2021, 01:49:17 PM
No need for apology at all. Of course I do accept dictionaries as far as they give us the meanings of the word and the specifics but some dictionaries start delving into tafsir of the Quran, which becomes the opinion of the author at that point. Some just document common beliefs of the people.

Back to the fasting topic:

The only reason why we assume the flow you mentioned is because we grew up believing fasting is not eating and drinking. That's why our brains automatically makes that flow and that association.

Nowhere in that verse Allah says do NOT eat or drink. Let me give you an example:

Again, read these two examples:

Ex 1) Eat and drink until morning. Then, take care of your younger brother up to the night.

Ex 2) Eat and drink until morning. Then, go to school until night.


Does it mean you should NOT be eating and drinking while taking care of your younger brother or while in school? Of course NOT

Also, there are two other things that the verse tells us to do until dawn in that verse:

1.Talk and have contact with your wives
2.Seek what Allah has written for you
3.Eat and drink
Until dawn, Then complete the fast...

Do you have to stop 1 and 2 as well? If you apply negation, you have to negate 1 and 2 as well because that is the natural flow but you can't because then you have to stop seeking what Allah has written for you, which results in you NOT fasting and saying prayers and paying zakat and etc.

Also, as I mentioned the word AYYAM includes both day and night. How could have anyone fasted both day and night for 30 days?
Fasting was initially 30 days and 30 nights of NOT talking but Allah discounted the nights.


Please watch this video and scroll to 9:00. I explain 2:187 in excruciating detail with several examples.

https://youtu.be/PPE4OLwcyHw


By the way, thank you for your very kind comment. I am NOT a good person at all. I consider myself a horrible person. I am hoping and praying that with spreading His word, Allah will have mercy on me and help me become better.

Thanks for bearing with me and reading my comments and explanations and watching my very boring videos. I appreciate it :)
 




Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 17, 2021, 03:19:21 PM
Here is the answer: In 2:184, Allah makes it very clear for us in the Quran that each ONE day of fasting can be ransomed (atoned) by feeding ONE person from the average of what we eat, correct?

peace -- no not always again you neglect 5:89 feed 10 poor/3 days?

 فكفارته so reparation its اطعم feeds عشره group of (10) مسكىن poor...
 فمن so who لم not ىجد find فصىم fasiyamu/so abstinence (fast) ثلثه trio (3) اىام days

likewise saudi billionaires can feed a whole city, no made up restrictions (limits) by money-grubbers.

2:184 ... وعلى and on الذىن the ones ىطىقونه can afford it فدىه ransom (payment) طعم sustenance (feed) مسكىن poor

And of course by fasting I mean NO talking...

no talking 2 months if you kill a large camel, right?

a billion people don't talk for a whole month, text only right?

Quote
I will send a $100 electronic Amazon gift card

Quote
Also, as I mentioned the word AYYAM includes both day and night.

context is your friend!

34:18 ... سىروا travel they of فىها therein لىالى layaliya/nights واىاما wa-ayyaman/and (by) days of امنىن safe

give $99 to first homeless person you see and keep $1 for yourself!  ;D

 :peace:
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 17, 2021, 05:00:56 PM
I read your comment several times to make sure but I don't see anything that disproves what the Quran says. There was no text messages back then so I am not sure what this argument has to do with what the Quran legislates.

Do you really think billionaires fast anyway? Or do you think they pretend they are fasting but eat inside their houses in secret? Allah knows best.

Your comment about "Layaliya wa ayyaman amenin" actually proves what the Quran says one more time that AYYAM includes both day and night. That's why Allah mentions it to emphasize the night and the fact that YOM includes both day and night. I think that is a basic concept of language in Arabic. Yom never means days in Arabic. The word for day is "NAHAR".

Please read the following two verses. Allah can not make it any clearer for us:

Lets look at two verses from the Quran together from my video

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)

Example of Zechariah, John The Baptist’s father and Maryam’s teacher
Allah imposed a mandatory 3 day fast on him during which he would NOT be able to talk to any human beings for a consecutive 72-hour period.
But how can we be sure that a YOM also included the night?

2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)

In this verse, Allah puts the emphasis on the nights so we all know that “Yom” includes the night period.
This verse proves without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM”, it means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.

You mentioned:
no talking 2 months if you kill a large camel, right?
a billion people don't talk for a whole month, text only right?


Why is that surprising to you? Doesn't Allah say to fast two consecutive months (60 days) to those who "YuZAHERUNA Min AZWAJEHEM" (making the wrong statement about their wives) before they can touch them again? Why was that surprising?

A big camel that feeds 60 people requires 60 days of fasting. I don't see what is wrong with that.

The Quran is very clear about fasting. We should never let our belief or how we feel or what a billionaire would or would not do or a technological change influence  our understanding of the Quran. Allah says that HE wants EASE for the believers and not hardship.

My challenge for you is still there: I will send a $100 electronic Amazon gift card or the equivalent if you don't have access to Amazon if anyone in this forum can bring me any of the following from the Quran (not hadith or other opinions):

1) An example in the Quran of someone fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING, OR

2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR

3) An example of an act of piety or righteousness (TAGHWA) mentioned in the Quran that involves NOT EATING AND DRINKING. (Ex. Lying, Bearing the correct testimony, Not accusing people wrongly, Talking nicely to people, Not yelling and screaming and so many others that are ALL directly mentioned in the Quran and
are ALL related to talking and the words that come out of a person's mouth).

Allah is our witness that if anyone brings me one example of the abovementioned 3 items in the Quran, I will keep my word and send you an electronic $100 gift card and if you don't want the money, I will sure donate it but bring me an example.


Thank you all and God bless. I don't think there is much more than I can add to this topic anymore. It is between you and your Lord  :giveup:
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: jkhan on February 17, 2021, 07:06:58 PM
I read your comment several times to make sure but I don't see anything that disproves what the Quran says. There was no text messages back then so I am not sure what this argument has to do with what the Quran legislates.

Do you really think billionaires fast anyway? Or do you think they pretend they are fasting but eat inside their houses in secret? Allah knows best.

Your comment about "Layaliya wa ayyaman amenin" actually proves what the Quran says one more time that AYYAM includes both day and night. That's why Allah mentions it to emphasize the night and the fact that YOM includes both day and night. I think that is a basic concept of language in Arabic. Yom never means days in Arabic. The word for day is "NAHAR".

Please read the following two verses. Allah can not make it any clearer for us:

Lets look at two verses from the Quran together from my video

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)

Example of Zechariah, John The Baptist’s father and Maryam’s teacher
Allah imposed a mandatory 3 day fast on him during which he would NOT be able to talk to any human beings for a consecutive 72-hour period.
But how can we be sure that a YOM also included the night?

2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)

In this verse, Allah puts the emphasis on the nights so we all know that “Yom” includes the night period.
This verse proves without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM”, it means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.

You mentioned:
no talking 2 months if you kill a large camel, right?
a billion people don't talk for a whole month, text only right?


Why is that surprising to you? Doesn't Allah say to fast two consecutive months (60 days) to those who "YuZAHERUNA Min AZWAJEHEM" (making the wrong statement about their wives) before they can touch them again? Why was that surprising?

A big camel that feeds 60 people requires 60 days of fasting. I don't see what is wrong with that.

The Quran is very clear about fasting. We should never let our belief or how we feel or what a billionaire would or would not do or a technological change influence  our understanding of the Quran. Allah says that HE wants EASE for the believers and not hardship.

My challenge for you is still there: I will send a $100 electronic Amazon gift card or the equivalent if you don't have access to Amazon if anyone in this forum can bring me any of the following from the Quran (not hadith or other opinions):

1) An example in the Quran of someone fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING, OR

2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR

3) An example of an act of piety or righteousness (TAGHWA) mentioned in the Quran that involves NOT EATING AND DRINKING. (Ex. Lying, Bearing the correct testimony, Not accusing people wrongly, Talking nicely to people, Not yelling and screaming and so many others that are ALL directly mentioned in the Quran and
are ALL related to talking and the words that come out of a person's mouth).

Allah is our witness that if anyone brings me one example of the abovementioned 3 items in the Quran, I will keep my word and send you an electronic $100 gift card and if you don't want the money, I will sure donate it but bring me an example.


Thank you all and God bless. I don't think there is much more than I can add to this topic anymore. It is between you and your Lord  :giveup:

No dear brother peace..
Your intention is pure probably.. But you have to ponder few key words..
UNTIL...  Why God needs to use the word UNTIL and WHITE THREAD AT DAWN connecting with food and drink?
If one can eat and drink after white thread at dawn, why it is at all required to be mentioned? So meaningless to say eat and drink with cut point using UNTIL in the verse.. People do eat and drink whether God say or not... Look at the complete usages of HATHTHA in Quran for further clarification..

COMPLETE....  if siyam is entire Yom, why siyam needs to be COMPLETED at ila Lail?
If it completes at the fall of night,  then when to resume again?  That's at dawn..
Quran verses very manifest... Siyam do involve with keeping away from food and drink and sex... And that's Don't's of siyam.. Dos of siyam is lot.  Magnify God etc..


Your couple of examples of UNTILL is really ridiculous.. No connection at all.. No one uses "until" unless there is restriction beyond that point..


Other key word is PERMITED FOR YOU NIGHTS...
If one says Nights permitted, that directly means Days (nahar) are NOT allowed in the context of the verse and the usage of words. So that means siyam is not 24 hours... And that further proves siyam is during genuine day time.. That's dawn to night fall...
If God used the word UNTIL in connection with food and drink then one would naturally perceive when to stop having sex.. That also at dawn.. Beyond dawn no sex.. So when to do again.. With the fall of night.. Not explained by God but self perception according to clear verse..

If the above explanation doesnt impress you, then you have found your own Quran...
God doesn't need to say Don't do.. But can explain in different way... God didn't say don't do sex during nahar... So common sense.. Same for eat and drink..
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: tlihawa on February 18, 2021, 10:05:34 AM
Salaam to You All My fellow Followers of The Quran and Our Prophet,

It truly pains my heart to see people doing the wrong fast and I pray to Allah that you could do the right fast this year at the right time, InShaAllah.
May Allah guide us all to His Direct Path.

Salaam ThelosttruthsofIslam,
Thank you for sharing your opinion about fasting. I also didn't do fasting by not eating and drinking, but the other way around by feeding the poor.
Here , I just want to share what I have done for years regarding fasting,

2:183   O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

2:184
ayyāman = (Fasting for) days
maʿdūdātin = numbered.
faman = So whoever
kāna = is
minkum = among you
marīḍan = sick
aw = or
ʿalā = on
safarin = a journey,
faʿiddatun = then a prescribed number
min = of
ayyāmin = days
ukhara =other.
waʿalā = And on
alladhīna = those who
yuṭīqūnahu = can afford it,
fid'yatun = purchase/provide
ṭaʿāmu = food
mis'kīnin = a poor
.
.

So it said "yuṭīqūnahu" means can afford it. If it means "can't afford it" in my opinion it should be "la yutiqunahu", So from here I know that during my fasting I have to feed the poor.

but first let me show you how the people of the book fasting in the past,

Isaiah 58

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?


So fasting based on the verses above is to do good things such as feed the poor, clothe them and help them. It's inline with my understanding of 2:184.

And let me continue pairing the context of those verses,
--------

Isaiah
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the dawn, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.


2:187 ...And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;

------

Isaiah 58
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;


2:186   And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

------

Isaiah 58
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?


2:193   And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

------

Regarding feeding the poor and clothe them, I recall this verse,

5:89  God will not hold you for your casual oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find such shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.

to me is just a relief from ten to three.

So at this point, I feed a poor and clothe them, then I seek what God has written for us, by studying Quran intensively to seek the hadyi (guidance).

2:187   It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the masjid. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.


To me, Fasting is part of the Hajj and Umra (2:183-2:203).

When I studied the Quran intensively on particular topic, I have to avoid sex and clear my mind as per instruction in 2:196,

here is my translation for 2:196,

wa-atimmū = And complete
l-ḥaja = haji
wal-ʿum'rata = and the Umrah
lillahi = for Allah.
fa-in = And if
uḥ'ṣir'tum = you are abstain from sexual intercourse
famā = then
is'taysara = easy to obtain
mina = of
l-hadyi = guidance

walā = And (do) not
taḥliqū = annoy
ruūsakum = your head
ḥattā = until
yablugha = reach
l-hadyu = guidance
maḥillahu = solved

faman = Then whoever
kāna = is
minkum = among you
marīḍan = ill
aw = or
bihi = in
adhan = annoyed
min = of
rasihi = your head
fafid'yatun = then provide
min = of
ṣiyāmin = fasting
aw = or
ṣadaqatin = charity
aw = or
nusukin = sacrifice.

fa-idhā = Then when
amintum = you are secure
faman = then whoever
tamattaʿa = took advantage
bil-ʿum'rati = to observe
ilā = until
l-ḥaji = argue
famā = then
is'taysara = easy to obtain
mina = of
l-hadyi = guidance

faman = But whoever   
lam = not
yajid = find
faṣiyāmu = then a fast
thalāthati = of three
ayyāmin = days
= during
l-ḥaji = arguing
wasabʿatin = and seven
idhā = when
rajaʿtum = you bring answer

tilka = This
ʿasharatun = (is) ten (days)
kāmilatun = in all.

dhālika = That
liman = (is) for (the one) whose,   
lam yakun = not is
ahluhu = those
ḥāḍirī = dispute on
l-masjidi
= masjidil
l-ḥarāmi = haram
wa-ittaqū = wa-ittaqū
l-laha = Allah
wa-iʿ'lamū = and know
anna = that
l-laha = Allah
shadīdu
= (is) severe
l-ʿiqābi= (in) retribution.

Only for people whose not in dispute (hujjah) regarding masjidil haram, as stated on this verse,

2:150   And from wherever you go out, you shall set your face towards the Masjidil Haram. And wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it; that the people will have no room for debate <hujjatun - hajj> with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.

I still have a lot things need to share, but I hope it's enough for now. I don't want to cause debate, just want to share my understanding. 

I respect your opinion, whatever you believe as long as it is based on God's scriptures.

Peace
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: shukri on February 18, 2021, 07:04:47 PM

How does staying hungry and thirsty makes you and I pious and God fearing? If that was the case, then all the homeless people would be the most pious and God fearing ones among us, wouldn’t they?

Bro ThelosttruthsofIslam,

I think fasting during Ramadan has a lot of wisdom.
Experiencing the real hunger and thirst are needed to nourish our soul
At least for the one who really appreciates his fasting.

Why?
Hunger and thirst are two kinds of torture received by God enemies in the hereafter
In fact these tortures only a tip of the iceberg compared to various other tortures in real hellfire

Just do this
During the peak of hunger and thirst (during fasting) just imagine that we are in the hellfire
Receive a lot of painful retribution for our sins
These tortures are indefinite and will not end forever
Are we willing to accept it?

For me the real experiencing of hunger and thirst are a great wisdom from God
AND I personally had experienced the extreme thirst during my fast and
This experience is still sculpted in my heart

I also put my finger into the flame of fire just to experience the real torture of the hellfire
Now I surrender to GOD
God's vengeance is unbearable
And I know experiencing is different from imaginary
The experience will stick in the heart forever.

Just my take.
Thank you.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: amin on February 18, 2021, 09:31:08 PM
Fasting makes me feel good, I fast on thursdays, skip two meals and strict veg on that day. Our Ramadan fasting is a good practice, if practiced in the best way. Communities fast to keep themselves fit both mind and body, some communities fast to keep away from seasonal diseases. It should be a cultural thing that has no direct simple reason, except to see this  as a good practice.  But by fasting we make sure we do not waste  and not go excess harming our body by eating excess in the name of feasting at the end the fasting.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 19, 2021, 04:15:56 PM
Thank you everyone. I started fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING when I was 6 years old and never missed a day of WRONG fasting my entire life up until Allah taught me what the real fasting was. However, it is NOT about what I unknowingly did, how I feel about fasting or if it makes me feel good or healthy, or if I can or cannot do it. It is ALL about what Allah has WRITTEN for us in His Book to follow.

If NOT EATING AND DRINKING was a cause for piety and righteousness, then most Hollywood MODELS, ACTRESSES, ACTORS and people with eating disorders such as BULIMIA would be the most pious in the world as they don’t eat for long periods of time. Please go on YouTube and type fasting and you will see that for yourself.

As I mentioned, NOT EATING and DRNKING has never been written for us in the Quran because it simply does NOT lead to “taghwa”. Take a look at current Islamic societies and how people cut each other’s head off during Ramadan while fasting. That should be a huge wake up call that something is NOT right. In fact, by NOT EATING and DRNKING, majority of Muslims sleep during the day and bing eat during the night, which is THE unhealthiest thing one could do. Please look around and you will see how drowsy people are in Ramadan very clearly.

Month of Ramadan is THE month of celebration, being active, doing E'tekaf, worshipping the lord and praising and glorifying Allah NOT the month of being drowsy and hungry and thirsty. In the old testament and new testament, you always see their fasting associated with MOURNING for causes such as destruction of Jerusalem, captivity or for Jesus Christ. NOT EATING and DRNKING actually was very common amongst Syrian Christians who mourned and self-flagellated before their conversion to Islam. Unfortunately the Syrian version of Islam managed to become victorious by defeating the Meccan/Medinian version of Islam during the Umayyads and that’s how we ended up with this mourning practice of not eating and drinking.

Anyway, back to the Quran:

Please read the following two verses. Allah cannot make it any clearer for us:

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)

Example of Zechariah, John The Baptist’s father and Maryam’s teacher
Allah imposed a mandatory 3 day fast on him during which he would NOT be able to talk to any human beings for a consecutive 72-hour period.

But how can we be sure that a YOM also included the night?


2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)

These two verses proves without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM” for fasting, it means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP. And that’s how fating was up until verse 2:187 of the Quran was revealed and Allah discounted the nights to the believers.

The only reason why we assume we have to fast by NOT EATING AND DRINKING is because we grew up believing fasting is not eating and drinking. That's why our brains automatically make that that association. Nowhere in the Quran Allah says do NOT eat or drink. Let me give you an example:

Again, read these two examples:

1) Talk to your wives AND Seek what Allah has written for you AND Eat and drink UNTIL DAWN. Then, take care of your younger brother up to the night.

2) Talk to your wives AND Seek what Allah has written for you AND Eat and drink until morning Eat and drink UNTIL DAWN. Then, go to school and complete your homework until night.

Do these examples mean you should NOT be eating and drinking while taking care of your younger brother or while in school completing your homework? Of course, NOT

As you can see, there are two other things that the verse tells us to do until dawn in that verse:

1.Talk and have contact with your wives AND,
2.Seek what Allah has written for you AND,
3.Eat and drink

Until dawn, Then complete the fast...


Do you have to stop 1 and 2 as well?
If you apply negation, you have to negate 1 and 2 as well but you can't because then you have to stop seeking what Allah has written for you, which results in you NOT fasting and saying prayers and paying zakat and etc.

BUT more importantly, the word AYYAM includes both day and night. How could have anyone fasted both day and night for 30 days?

As clearly evidence by the Quran, Fasting was initially 30 days and 30 nights of NOT talking (Also includes texting) and believers were only allowed to communicate through gesture but Allah discounted the nights at 2:187.


Brothers and Sisters: Allah says you need two just witnesses to prove a point. I have more than two witnesses from the Quran but here I give you two:

First Quranic Witness: (Maryam)
So, eat and drink and look forward (to the birth of your child). Then if you see any human being, say, "I have vowed a fast for The Rahman (The Most Gracious), and THEREFORE, I shall never talk to any human beings THIS YOM (day plus night, 24 hours).“ (19:26)

2nd Quranic Witness: (Zechariah)
He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)


How many Quranic witnesses do you have? Bring your witnesses and we can talk more for sure.

My challenge for all of you is still there: I will send a $100 electronic Amazon gift card or the equivalent if you don't have access to Amazon if anyone in this forum can bring me any of the following from the Quran (not hadith or other opinions):

1) An example in the Quran of someone fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING, OR

2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR

3) An example of an act of piety or righteousness (TAGHWA) mentioned in the Quran that involves NOT EATING AND DRINKING. (Ex. Lying, Bearing the correct testimony, Not accusing people wrongly, Talking nicely to people, Not yelling and screaming and so many others that are ALL directly mentioned in the Quran and
are ALL related to talking and the words that come out of a person's mouth and NONE is related to NOT EATING AND DRINKING).

Allah is our witness that if anyone brings me one example of the abovementioned 3 items in the Quran, I will keep my word and send you an electronic $100 gift card and if you don't want the money, I will sure donate it but bring me an example.


Please watch this video and scroll to 9:00. I explain 2:187 in excruciating detail with several examples if you care to learn what the Quran tells us.
https://youtu.be/PPE4OLwcyHw

We all need to stop following the Umayyad Islam and come back to the original true Islam and the TRUE Quran. We should stop following the religion of the Umayyads (Syrian Islam) who buried the truth of the Quran under a ton of false hadith. Allah commands us NOT to follow hadith. When are we going to wake up and listen to Allah. Here is my video about the hadith and some of the verses where Allah tells us not to follow them:

https://youtu.be/tno0dgHfr-8

I have nothing more to add but wish you all the best. Please take a moment out of your busy life and think and meditate and contemplate on those verses. It will make sense eventually just like it did for me after reading them day and night during my Salat for months.

Peace and Blessings to you all  :sun:



Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: shukri on February 19, 2021, 08:05:18 PM
Bro ThelosttruthsofIslam,

Would you help me for a second
About the words "أَيّامًا مَعدودٰتٍ" mention in verse 2:184
Some say: The word "madooda" is used in Arabic to typically denote a number from 3-10 and no more
In your opinion, is it correct or not?
If that is the case, Ramadan fasting only for 3-10 days and not a whole month!

*Just for my record
Thank you.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 19, 2021, 08:31:19 PM
Bro ThelosttruthsofIslam,

Would you help me for a second
About the words "أَيّامًا مَعدودٰتٍ" mention in verse 2:184
Some say: The word "madooda" is used in Arabic to typically denote a number from 3-10 and no more
In your opinion, is it correct or not?
If that is the case, Ramadan fasting only for 3-10 days and not a whole month!

*Just for my record
Thank you.

Peace and Blessings to you :)

Of course. I would love to help wherever I can. That is a great question. "AYYAM" can be any number of days >= 3 so we know for sure that fasting (siyam) includes at least 3 days of fast (sowm).

Allah says that His book is detailed, clear, specific and is there to clarify everything we need to know. So we have to look for the answer within the Quran. If you look at 2:185, it says:

"The month of Ramadan is the one in which the Qur'an was revealed as guidance for mankind and with vivid features of guidance and the Criterion ;so those of you who are present during the month (SHAHR) must fast therein"

So, at this point we know we have to fast the duration of the SHAHR. But how many days are there in a "SHAHR" that we have to fast therein?

The Quran has the clear answer for us at 58:4
"And he whoever does not find (a slave to free), then fasting for two consecutive months (SHAHRAIN) before they touch one another; And he who is unable, then the feeding of sixty poor persons (1 person for each day).

This verse fixes the number of days in a qur'anic month (Shahr) to 30 days. Fasting two consecutive Quranic months (Shahrayn) or alternatively feeding 60 people (i.e., 1 person for each day of fasting). 30 days in each month (Shahr) equals 60 days in two months and 60 people. Consequently, each Quranic month is 30 days and NEVER 29 days.

So Fasting is ALWAYS and EXACTLY 30 days.

Just so you remember: In 2:184, Allah makes it very clear for us in the Quran that each ONE day of fasting can be ransomed (atoned) by feeding ONE person from the average of what we eat, which gives us the following equation that I used for 58:4.   ONE day of fasting = feeding ONE person

I also have a video about this if you would rather hear it: https://youtu.be/8wcq5ur7w9I

I hope it helped,
Mahdi









 
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: shukri on February 19, 2021, 09:04:47 PM
Bro ThelosttruthsofIslam,

Thanks for your response
I do not know arabic and that's why I ask this question to you
AND from your writing I conclude that the words "ayyamam madooda" are not limited to a maximum 10 days but will go beyond it as well as for 30 days (the whole month of Ramadan)

It helps me a lot.
Thanks again,
Salam.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 19, 2021, 09:15:45 PM
That is correct. It literally means: "A counted (calculated, enumerated) number of AYYAM (days plus nights)".

Allah is telling you that "the number" is very definite and calculated/enumerated. That is the clue that the exact number is there in the Quran. And as you can see from the verses I sent you, the exact number is precisely calculated/enumerated and stated to be 30 AYYAM--not one day less and not one day more.

Book of Allah is THE PERFECTION OF BEAUTY. If you follow it and mediate/contemplate on it, you will never go wrong :)   
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: jkhan on February 20, 2021, 12:26:17 AM


Peace everyone...
Give the right thing its true value.. But here the author has not brought any convincing facts.. We have been discussing this zakaria and Maryam's Sawm many a times in this forum.. Once Sister Hourya brought recently the same thing saying Siyam is meditating and nothing to do with restricting food and drink ...

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610862.0


Anyone thinks that Siyam is other than all knows then he or she has no proof within Quran...
For sure Sawm = abstinence of any type..
But Siyam is also Abstinence but food and drink and sex specifically...
What Maryam abstained (Sawm)  was a vow .. Which was merely abstained from talking to people in order for her to be free from discomfort from others and their queries..
Remember any human being can abstain(sawm) anything of their choice in the name of God merely or expecting something to accomplish for themselves.. It is a kind of vow.. Vows of any choice is completely allowed within Quran and it was even a practice of many believers since old time..
It is a self preference.. It won't make one a muththakun..
In the case of zakaria it was not a vow but mere abstinence from talking to people except sign language.. Probably not to his family but others.. But I. Zakaria case it has not stated Sawm either.. But it was a sign for him all alone.. In the end what he did was abstinence of sound while he is capable of speaking..

When it comes to Siyam 2:183-187 it is instructions to follow as it was prescribed to those before... They are not vow or mere abstinence of self choice... But according to clear instructions so that it may increase the faith to a level of Muttaqun...

So my clear instructions to those who do keep away from food and drink every year for minimum 3-30 days is just keep doing.. Quran is very clear..
Don't get confused by Maryam and zakaria.. They are just abstinence for their own sake.. One of them is a vow..

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 20, 2021, 12:32:15 PM

Peace everyone...
Give the right thing its true value.. But here the author has not brought any convincing facts.. We have been discussing this zakaria and Maryam's Sawm many a times in this forum.. Once Sister Hourya brought recently the same thing saying Siyam is meditating and nothing to do with restricting food and drink ...

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610862.0


Anyone thinks that Siyam is other than all knows then he or she has no proof within Quran...
For sure Sawm = abstinence of any type..
But Siyam is also Abstinence but food and drink and sex specifically...
What Maryam abstained (Sawm)  was a vow .. Which was merely abstained from talking to people in order for her to be free from discomfort from others and their queries..
Remember any human being can abstain(sawm) anything of their choice in the name of God merely or expecting something to accomplish for themselves.. It is a kind of vow.. Vows of any choice is completely allowed within Quran and it was even a practice of many believers since old time..
It is a self preference.. It won't make one a muththakun..
In the case of zakaria it was not a vow but mere abstinence from talking to people except sign language.. Probably not to his family but others.. But I. Zakaria case it has not stated Sawm either.. But it was a sign for him all alone.. In the end what he did was abstinence of sound while he is capable of speaking..

When it comes to Siyam 2:183-187 it is instructions to follow as it was prescribed to those before... They are not vow or mere abstinence of self choice... But according to clear instructions so that it may increase the faith to a level of Muttaqun...

So my clear instructions to those who do keep away from food and drink every year for minimum 3-30 days is just keep doing.. Quran is very clear..
Don't get confused by Maryam and zakaria.. They are just abstinence for their own sake.. One of them is a vow..

My Dear Brother,

Peace and Blessings be to you. My intention is NOT to prove myself or serve my ego or mislead other people. Allah alone is my refuge from all of those.

For the sake of example: Let me agree with you and concur what you just mentioned that FASTING is abstinence from both EATING AND DRINKING AND MARITAL RELATIONSHIP.

Then, I am going to read the below two verses, which prove without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM” for fasting or as you mentioned abstinence, it clearly means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)
2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)[/b]

There is absolutely NO WAY of getting around that UNLESS I disbelieve in the above two verses. If I did that, I would be stepping outside the boundary of the Quran and following my own whims and desires, which I can not do.

As a follower of the Quran, I would then read 2:184 and it says fasting is: "An enumerated number of “AYYAM” (day and night, 24-hour period)"

Then, I would read 2:185, the very next verse, which says:
"Allah wants ease for you and does not want hardship for you. And all this because you may complete the number and magnify Allah for having guided you and that you might be grateful".

As a believer and a follower of the Quran, I would put two and two together and combine 3:41, 19:10, 2:184 and 2:185 logically. I would realize that the number of AYYAM has to be fully completed.

I would then reach the very reasonable conclusion that fasting is a kind of abstinence that lasted for the duration of those enumerated AYYAM and included BOTH DAYS AND NIGHTS during those AYYAM.

Then, I would ask myself this question: Would it have been possible for any human beings to abstain from EATING AND DRINKING for 30 days and 30 nights?
I think the answer is clear. It would NOT have been possible at all. However, abstinence from talking except through gesture would have perfectly fit the bill. It would have perfectly been possible to abstain from talking except through gesture for 30 days and nights in a row. We know that many people would also do E'tekaf (reclusions) in mosques worshipping, praising and glorifying Allah.

However, NOT TALKING for 30 days and 30 nights would have also meant NOT talking to our pious and righteous wives who are Allah's gifts to us and we so dearly love and adore. Obviously, we would have gradually become sad and depressed for not being able to talk to them for such a long time. We are weak after all. Some believers (men and women) were weaker than some others and probably would act naughty  ;) and do things that we probably should NOT talk about in this forum  :o :-X

Then, I would read 2:187, which says:
It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting conjugal speech with your wives. They are a clothing for you, and you are a clothing for them. Allah knows that you have been betraying yourselves, so He returned to you and forgave you. Therefore, from now on, communicate and have contact with them (your wives) AND seek that which Allah has decreed for you AND eat AND drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread (of night). Then complete the fast until the night (after the end of the dusk period, which starts with sunset and ends with night). And do not communicate and have contact with them as long as you are in reclusion in the mosques

As a seeker of truth, the Quran makes complete sense. As you can see, The Quran is very consistent.

Please keep in mind that word "Tubashiruhunna" is the same root as "Bashir" and "Mubash'shir". If "Tubashiruhunna" meant "having sexual relationship" then, we could conclude that a "Bashir" or a "mubash'shir" would mean a "A Very Active Professional Sex Worker"  >:D :-X :o 8)(May Allah forgive me for saying that). "Tubashiruhunna" means having talks and pleasantries.
   
I hope it makes better sense now and thank you for taking the time reading my comments. I really appreciate it. I was not aware of the other forum. I will definitely check the link you sent. I am so glad there are other believers who believe in the same thing that I believe in.

Mahdi




Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: jkhan on February 20, 2021, 06:42:54 PM
My Dear Brother,

Peace and Blessings be to you. My intention is NOT to prove myself or serve my ego or mislead other people. Allah alone is my refuge from all of those.

For the sake of example: Let me agree with you and concur what you just mentioned that FASTING is abstinence from both EATING AND DRINKING AND MARITAL RELATIONSHIP.

Then, I am going to read the below two verses, which prove without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM” for fasting or as you mentioned abstinence, it clearly means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.

1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three (3) ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)
2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)[/b]

There is absolutely NO WAY of getting around that UNLESS I disbelieve in the above two verses. If I did that, I would be stepping outside the boundary of the Quran and following my own whims and desires, which I can not do.

As a follower of the Quran, I would then read 2:184 and it says fasting is: "An enumerated number of “AYYAM” (day and night, 24-hour period)"

Then, I would read 2:185, the very next verse, which says:
"Allah wants ease for you and does not want hardship for you. And all this because you may complete the number and magnify Allah for having guided you and that you might be grateful".

As a believer and a follower of the Quran, I would put two and two together and combine 3:41, 19:10, 2:184 and 2:185 logically. I would realize that the number of AYYAM has to be fully completed.

I would then reach the very reasonable conclusion that fasting is a kind of abstinence that lasted for the duration of those enumerated AYYAM and included BOTH DAYS AND NIGHTS during those AYYAM.

Then, I would ask myself this question: Would it have been possible for any human beings to abstain from EATING AND DRINKING for 30 days and 30 nights?
I think the answer is clear. It would NOT have been possible at all. However, abstinence from talking except through gesture would have perfectly fit the bill. It would have perfectly been possible to abstain from talking except through gesture for 30 days and nights in a row. We know that many people would also do E'tekaf (reclusions) in mosques worshipping, praising and glorifying Allah.

However, NOT TALKING for 30 days and 30 nights would have also meant NOT talking to our pious and righteous wives who are Allah's gifts to us and we so dearly love and adore. Obviously, we would have gradually become sad and depressed for not being able to talk to them for such a long time. We are weak after all. Some believers (men and women) were weaker than some others and probably would act naughty  ;) and do things that we probably should NOT talk about in this forum  :o :-X

Then, I would read 2:187, which says:
It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting conjugal speech with your wives. They are a clothing for you, and you are a clothing for them. Allah knows that you have been betraying yourselves, so He returned to you and forgave you. Therefore, from now on, communicate and have contact with them (your wives) AND seek that which Allah has decreed for you AND eat AND drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread (of night). Then complete the fast until the night (after the end of the dusk period, which starts with sunset and ends with night). And do not communicate and have contact with them as long as you are in reclusion in the mosques

As a seeker of truth, the Quran makes complete sense. As you can see, The Quran is very consistent.

Please keep in mind that word "Tubashiruhunna" is the same root as "Bashir" and "Mubash'shir". If "Tubashiruhunna" meant "having sexual relationship" then, we could conclude that a "Bashir" or a "mubash'shir" would mean a "A Very Active Professional Sex Worker"  >:D :-X :o 8)(May Allah forgive me for saying that). "Tubashiruhunna" means having talks and pleasantries.
   
I hope it makes better sense now and thank you for taking the time reading my comments. I really appreciate it. I was not aware of the other forum. I will definitely check the link you sent. I am so glad there are other believers who believe in the same thing that I believe in.

Mahdi

Peace Brother Mahdi..

You are someone like.. If one asked "where are you going dude?  And you say.. There are apples in my bag.. "

Note clearly siyam is not 24 hours.. That's so obvious as I explained in my first reply.. Don't act like it is pls.. God says Haj is in well known months... But didn't He explain in clear cut instructions in maximum how many days one can do haj..  No one needs to do haj for consecutive months
Like wise God said for siyam..
He said shahr Ramadan...  Ayyamin madudath.. And during day time.. Isn't that enough for you to stop this blindness by repeating and saying 24 hours.. Who did fast 24 hours.. How can one fast 24 hours while God manifestly indicated eat and drink UNTIL white thread clear from black.. Why one should be so specific in looking at white thread at dawn in connection with food...

You are blinded with Maryam and zakaria abstinence...  Or you are adamant knowingly..
It was special and particular to them.. They didn't even know what to do..
If Sawm is abstinence from talking to others in general, God doesn't need to explain Maryam don't talk to people.. She only need to say I am in Sawm.. So people already know then Sawm is not talking to others.. No sign language for Maryam.. So at least she has to speak to say I am doing abstinence of not talking for God, so I don't talk. 
But zakaria abstinence is entirely different to Maryam.. He should go infront of people but he should not utter a word but all in gestures.. Maryam if she sees anyone only, not necessarily go in front of people.. Maryam was instructed to SPEAK (fakuli)  she should completly say to anyone if she happened to come across " I have vowed a Sawm today so I won't speak to any human being" these are not sign language..

Clear difference with zakaria... So dude are we to fast in Maryam's style or zakaria style..?

Imagine if siyam is one month,  then not talking whole community to each other.. Clear rubbish... Maryam had a purpose and benefit by not talking... While zakaria had a purpose and benefit by not talking... Both connected with male child...
Come on guys.. Zakaria requested a sign in connection with his son...

Any sensible person would understand that Maryam needed privacy while travelling.. So the abstince of not talking is the best option depending on her situation ..

In zakaria case.. Zakaria only knows what happened after he completed three ayyamin by speaking to people only in sign language.. Coz it was a demanded sign for him.. And connected with glad tiding of a boy..

I don't mind what people does.. Whether they fast not fast.. But I like to present the truth which I know according to Quran... After all if God misguides people who am I to rectify them..

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: ThelosttruthsofIslam on February 20, 2021, 09:51:13 PM
Peace Brother Mahdi..

You are someone like.. If one asked "where are you going dude?  And you say.. There are apples in my bag.. "

Note clearly siyam is not 24 hours.. That's so obvious as I explained in my first reply.. Don't act like it is pls.. God says Haj is in well known months... But didn't He explain in clear cut instructions in maximum how many days one can do haj..  No one needs to do haj for consecutive months
Like wise God said for siyam..
He said shahr Ramadan...  Ayyamin madudath.. And during day time.. Isn't that enough for you to stop this blindness by repeating and saying 24 hours.. Who did fast 24 hours.. How can one fast 24 hours while God manifestly indicated eat and drink UNTIL white thread clear from black.. Why one should be so specific in looking at white thread at dawn in connection with food...

You are blinded with Maryam and zakaria abstinence...  Or you are adamant knowingly..
It was special and particular to them.. They didn't even know what to do..
If Sawm is abstinence from talking to others in general, God doesn't need to explain Maryam don't talk to people.. She only need to say I am in Sawm.. So people already know then Sawm is not talking to others.. No sign language for Maryam.. So at least she has to speak to say I am doing abstinence of not talking for God, so I don't talk. 
But zakaria abstinence is entirely different to Maryam.. He should go infront of people but he should not utter a word but all in gestures.. Maryam if she sees anyone only, not necessarily go in front of people.. Maryam was instructed to SPEAK (fakuli)  she should completly say to anyone if she happened to come across " I have vowed a Sawm today so I won't speak to any human being" these are not sign language..

Clear difference with zakaria... So dude are we to fast in Maryam's style or zakaria style..?

Imagine if siyam is one month,  then not talking whole community to each other.. Clear rubbish... Maryam had a purpose and benefit by not talking... While zakaria had a purpose and benefit by not talking... Both connected with male child...
Come on guys.. Zakaria requested a sign in connection with his son...

Any sensible person would understand that Maryam needed privacy while travelling.. So the abstince of not talking is the best option depending on her situation ..

In zakaria case.. Zakaria only knows what happened after he completed three ayyamin by speaking to people only in sign language.. Coz it was a demanded sign for him.. And connected with glad tiding of a boy..

I don't mind what people does.. Whether they fast not fast.. But I like to present the truth which I know according to Quran... After all if God misguides people who am I to rectify them..

Peace Brother,

I wish you would have taken at least half an hour to think and meditate about those two verses. The way you interpreted them made me understand that not only you didn't think about them at all but also you didn't read them.

Let me summarize those two verses for you: The only limitation in Maryam's and Zechariah's fast is that they can NOT engage in any conversation with ANY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS except through gesture. That does NOT mean they can not say anything. That does NOT mean they have to be constantly quiet and speechless at all times. That's why Allah commands Zechariah to glorify and praise in the morning and evenings. The ONLY way one is allowed to engage in a conversation is through gesture. As simple as that.

Did you really think Zechariah and Maryam were glorifying and praising in their hearts without talking? Did you think they were performing Salat secretly with no voice?

The point you made about Maryam is again because you didn't read the verses carefully. She is NOT engaging in any conversation with anyone. Maryam and Zechariah were allowed to say anything they wanted as long as they were NOT engaging in any conversation with any other human beings. You mentioned  "faghooli". Again, I don't think you have seen the verse 19:29: "fa ASHARAT ELAIHE", which means Maryam gestured/pointed towards him (Jesus) in response to the people questioning her about Jesus. So Maryam is NOT engaging in any conversation but is pointing and gesturing towards Jesus her son. That is exactly what Zechariah did. Please take a few minutes and read these verses carefully especially when you are posting them and commenting on them in a Quranic forum. You will find these verses beneficial for you, Insha'Allah. Here is 19:27-29 for you in case you are too busy to read them yourself:

(19:27-29) Then she returned to her people, carrying him. They said ˹in shock˺, “O Mary! You have certainly done a horrible thing. O  sister of Aaron! Your father was not an indecent man, nor was your mother unchaste.” So, she pointed/gestured towards the baby. They exclaimed, “How can we talk to someone who is an infant in the cradle?”

As you can see, the Quran documents and explains Maryam's actions for us and the fact that she pointed and gestured towards the baby when she wanted to communicate to them. Please take the time to read Allah's verses before talking about them.

During the TRUE QURANIC fast, one can talk to their pets, or a dog or a horse or a bird or a tree or an angel because these are NOT human beings. The limitation is ONLY engaging in a conversation with another human being. These verses could NOT possibly be any clearer..

Any unbiased truth seeking person can tell you that Maryam and Zechariah are both doing the exact same thing. There is absolutely NO difference whatsoever. There is No need to mention "SAWM" for Zechariah because he is doing the exact same thing that Maryam is doing.

Here is the equation for you: If B=SAWM and C=SAWM then you can easily conclude that B=C=SAWM.

Also, you completely brushed aside the "AYYAM" because obviously that is the TRUTH and there is no way you or anyone else can argue against it unless you disbelieve in those two verses.

I have an advice for you that will truly benefit you: Don't let your bias towards what I say keep you from submitting to Allah's verses. That would NOT be good at all.

My challenge for you is still there: Bring me any of the following from the Quran (not hadith or other opinions):

1) An example in the Quran of someone fasting by NOT EATING AND DRINKING, OR
2) A direct commandment from Allah in the Quran that we should NOT EAT AND DRINK while fasting, OR
3) An example of an act of piety or righteousness (TAGHWA) mentioned in the Quran that involves NOT EATING AND DRINKING. (Ex. Lying, Bearing the correct testimony, Not accusing people wrongly, Talking nicely to people, Not yelling and screaming and so many others that are ALL directly mentioned in the Quran and are ALL related to talking and the words that come out of a person's mouth).

There is NONE and you can NOT bring anything for me because that's not the fast that Allah desired and wrote for the believers in the Quran. As you can see, I am trying to clean up the misinformation and the lies that exist around fasting but my success is up to Allah of course.

By the way, I didn't quite understand your point about the Hajj. Who has said that Hajj has to last for several consecutive months? Where did you hear that? Did I say that somewhere?  :confused:

Just for your information since you brought it up:
Months of hajj are four (4) consecutive months. It doesn't mean your hajj has to last four (4) consecutive months. Was that a joke by any chance?  :brickwall:
What it means is that within those four (4) consecutive months, you can do hajj at anytime you want. You can do Hajj four times if that's what you want or you can do it once but it has to happen within those 4 months to count as Hajj. Otherwise, it would be UMRAH. Maybe there is a language barrier there and you misunderstood what I have said. If you have questions about anything that I have said about hajj, rather than assuming something that I have NEVER said, please let me know and I can clarify it for you.


I am only trying to clarify Allah's verses for those who truly wish to know and understand and submit to them NOT for those who have made their hearts hard and only wish to prove their own point. At the end of the day, if Allah wants to mislead someone, who am I to be able to guide them.

Peace to you as well..



 

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: shukri on February 22, 2021, 01:12:57 AM
Bro ThelosttruthsofIslam,

I'm try to solve three issues mentioned in your posting:

First Issue: How does staying hungry and thirsty make you and I pious and God fearing? If that was the case, then all the homeless people would be the most pious and God fearing ones among us, wouldn’t they?

The answer: My answer already given in my Reply #13

-----

Second Issue: Then, I am going to read the below two verses, which prove without a doubt that when Quran mentions “Yom” or “AYYAM” for fasting or as you mentioned abstinence, it clearly means a 24-hour period of both “day” and “night” NONSTOP.
1) He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not (be able to) speak to the people for three  ay’yam (days plus nights; 72 hours NONSTOP) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning." (3:41)
2) (Zechariah) said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, (while being) sound.“ (19:10)

The answer: I use Al-Muzzammil method to prove that verse 3:41 has a missing words of "at night"
https://al-muzzammil.com/relevance_miracle/19_based_calc.html

Now see the Code below:
3:41 He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three ay’yam (?) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning."
103 ... gv for "at night" بالليل
--> 103 341 = 5439 x 19
Position 9 (Provision)
Level 4 (Verses which can be extrapolated)
(Indication: The verse 3:41 should be read as ... He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three ay’yam (at night) except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and glorify in the evening and the morning.")

Therefore the word "three ay'yam" in verse 3:41 is not contradict to words "three nights" in verse 19:10!

-----

Third Issue: The words "أَيّامًا مَعدودٰتٍ" mentioned in verse 2:184

The answer: I use Al-Muzzammil method to prove that أَيّامًا مَعدودٰتٍ (specific/limited/a few days) are meant for "three days"

(Code 1) ... Using the first words of "three days" mentioned in the quran i.e. Verse 2:196
2:184 Specific days (days numbered/a certain days/a few numbered/limited days); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
2:196 You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for God. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe God, and know that God is strict in enforcing retribution (The first verse in the quran mentioned wordings "three days")
--> (184) + (196) = 380 = 20 x 19 (verses without chapters)
Position 0 (Wild Card) ... All positions 1-9 are applicable
Level 3 (Include Missing Information)
(Indication: Specific days in verse 2:184 are meant for three days)

(Code 2) ... Hidden words for "Specific days"
2:184 Specific days (?); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
1436 52 ... gv for "three days (ثلاثة أيام)"
--> (1436+52) + (184) =  1672 = 88 x 19
Position 8 (Issues)
Level 3 (Include Missing Information)
(Indication: "Specific days" are meant for three days)

OR (Substitute the word "three" with number "3")
3 52 ... gv for "3 days (ثلاثة 3 أيام )"
--> 352 (184) = 18536 x 19
Position 6 (Caution) ... Something is missing!
Level 5 (Detailing Information)

Caution! (Replace gv for "three days" with gv for "three days during the month")
1436 52 661 536 ... gv for "three days during the month" ثلاثة أيام خلال الشهر (Note: Number "3" is reversed back to gv for number "three")
--> (1436+52+661+536) + (184) = 2869 = 151 x 19
Position 1 (Scenario Described)
Level 3 (Include Missing Information)

Ends
Thank you.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 22, 2021, 07:06:10 AM
Peace TL TOI,

Thank you for your sharing, I'm not the only one to understand siyam like you.

if I want to practice fasting, I can do it all year round easily and without constraints. fasting is blessed
(autophagy) for the body when you stop eating and drinking for at least 16 hours.

According to my understanding we are not told to fast 2 consecutive full moons (Shahrayn), only during a specific number of days.
The fast begins as soon as we perceive the full moon of strong heat (shahr ramadan) and continues until night (atimmoo / continue), there is no interruption.

The purpose of siyam is to glorify God /litukabbiroo allaha for his guidance during spiritual retreat and to achieve piety . The only thing to
to respect is don't cohabit with women during the retreat, the verse is clear.

What is allowed during the night and what is not allowed during the retreat is not the definition of siyam.

Why shahr ramadam is important, it is the night  during which the quran was revealed to the prophet.
Observe a retreat to receive divine guidance
through your heart...etc

Peace


Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 23, 2021, 11:40:07 PM
Peace,

I have consulted the occurrences of the verb ittaqoo which is translated in the following verses (Translation of FM) as being aware, I have selected a few verses which indicate the meaning of this action :

3:102
O you who believe, reverence God as He deserves to be reverenced, and do not die except as ones who have submitted.


5:35
O you who believe, be aware of God and seek a way to Him, and strive in His cause; that you may succeed.


5:100
Say: "The rotten and the good are not equal, even if the abundance of the rotten impresses you." So be aware of God, O you who possess intelligence, that you may succeed.

9:119
O you who believe, be aware of God and be with the truthful.

33:70
O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth.

2:183    O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous / tattaqoon.

According to my understanding : the verb tattaqoon the pronominal form of the verb ittaqa means ittaqoo allah / God

Peace

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 24, 2021, 03:05:37 AM
Peace,

Other verses about almuttaqeen those who ittaqaw:

16:30    And it was said to those who were righteous / ittaqaw: "What has your Lord sent down?" They said: "All goodness / khayran." For those who have done good in this world there is good; and the Hereafter is goodness / khayrun. Excellent indeed is the home of the righteous / almuttaqeen.

2:183    O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous / tattaqoon.

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better / khayrun for you if only you knew.

Peace



Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 25, 2021, 12:44:32 AM
Peace

In the verse 2 :183 the form of the verb is pronominal tattaqoon.

2:183
O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous / tattaqoon.

Is it a personal will / decision to be righteous or is it God who inspires or grants us our righteousness as He guides our heart and comfort our chest to submission ?

I would like to share with you my thoughts about the night of alqdr; Whether it is the night of the summer soltice or the autumn equinox, the two interpretations are plausible.

The meaning of the word ramadan :, strong heat or autumn rain ?

Both senses are possible, which of the 2 senses is corroborated by the Qur'an ?.

The goal is is to do the siyam durant a few number of days, regardless of the period when we have decided to do it as for the sick or those who are traveling.


Peace
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Iyyaka on February 25, 2021, 01:40:38 AM
Peace
In the verse 2 :183 the form of the verb is pronominal tattaqoon.
2:183
O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous / tattaqoon.
Is it a personal will / decision to be righteous or is it God who inspires or grants us our righteousness as He guides our heart and comfort our chest to submission ?
Peace.
Error in translation - tattaqoon by righteous.
This form VIII express the idea of "be secure against evils and calamity" or "who fears and guarantees himself against an evil or danger"
So the translation may be "so that you may protect yourself"

The meaning of the word ramadan :, strong heat or autumn rain ?
Peace
The root "rmD"  evokes the strong heat (burning stones of the desert) => When food and water are scarce.
other quranic related roots :
- mrD (2:10) = Sick (when you have a fever your body is warm)
- Dmr (22:67) = being thin and not having a belly (dieting a horse)
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 25, 2021, 09:35:20 AM
Peace,

This is only my personal opinion, God only knows who is wrong and who is right.

According to you siyam = restorative fasting (abstinence from eating and drinking ..).

I understand siyam as a spiritual retreat.

I try to understand taqwa and siyam in the light of the Reading, I exclude over-interpretation like siyam = restorative fasting,

or tattaqoon =  to guard oneself with a restorative fasting.

Both understandings are possible, I made the choice of spiritual retreat for the reasons explained above.

I agree that abstaining from eating and drinking is a great way to heal the physical body, I try to practice intermittent fasting regularly.

Peace



Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Iyyaka on February 25, 2021, 10:07:05 AM
Peace,

This is only my personal opinion, God only knows who is wrong and who is right.

According to you siyam = restorative fasting (abstinence from eating and drinking ..).

I understand siyam as a spiritual retreat.

I try to understand taqwa and siyam in the light of the Reading, I exclude over-interpretation like siyam = restorative fasting,

or tattaqoon =  to guard oneself with a restorative fasting.

Both understandings are possible, I made the choice of spiritual retreat for the reasons explained above.

I agree that abstaining from eating and drinking is a great way to heal the physical body, I try to practice intermittent fasting regularly.

Peace
Peace be upon you.
No problem i just respond to your questions.
Yes a spiritual retreat is encouraged by the Quran during (all or a part?) fasting of Ramadan.
And, additionally, by reading the Quran, we can ask ourselves the following question : Does the women practiced fasting during the lifetime of Muhammad (pbsl) ? not so obvious..
For my translation "restorative fasting" (i recognize that it is not so well rendered in English!), it is linked to the other occurrences of the word siyam in the Quran (an atonement/expiation for something).
But just a question : why asked questions if you are convinced of something? expose and share your opinions.

NB: the text deliver first an understandable message for Arab people in Arabia in the beginning of the 7° century
Sometimes, it can be difficult to find the historical true for some contexts, but not all is relative otherwise why we need of the Quran ? In this case we have just follow our opinions or fantasies (as madhi does for giving a new direction for the word siyam in sura 2, or others for the word Hajj). No need for Quran for that.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 25, 2021, 01:27:54 PM
Peace,

What i tried to say in my last post, we can't prove with certainty the meaning of words like the night of alkadr, ramadan, we have indications in the quran. It is up to everyone to make a choice in the light of the indications of the quran.

About siyam for fault, siyam is recommended to be aware , meditate..

Siyam is addressed to both men and women, no contact between them during the spiritual retreat,
observing the silence.

Peace
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: reel on February 26, 2021, 07:39:37 AM

I understand siyam as a spiritual retreat.

Both understandings are possible, I made the choice of spiritual retreat for the reasons explained above.

I agree that abstaining from eating and drinking is a great way to heal the physical body, I try to practice intermittent fasting regularly.

Peace



Please report on your experience. I did the experiment last year. It left me feeling great. It was as if God was becoming a very very close friend. Felt so satisfied and encouraged at the end of each day. I will not go back to abstaining from eating and fasting. It seems to have the opposite effect.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 27, 2021, 06:02:31 AM
Peace Reel,

Thank you for your input.

My first spiritual retreat is as beneficial as salat but over a long period. It is a meeting with our creator in our interior space.

Peace

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 27, 2021, 07:21:34 AM
An article on spiritual retreat in the Quran. You can translate it with google from French to English.

http://www.voix-islam-eclaire.fr/2020/01/11/la-retraite-spirituelle-en-islam-anne-sophie-monsinay-2/

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Fadiva on February 27, 2021, 09:49:12 AM
Peace the losttruthofislam, reel and Houriya,

If siyam is a spiritual retreat, remaining silent (not talking to other) and remembering God, why can't a sick person do it? 
But on the other side:
One can ask the same question about not eating but not drinking is quite difficult.

About travelling : nowadays why can't one fast the traditional way while travelling ? Stop talking  to someone and staying concentrated remembering God would be complicated while travelling.

Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 27, 2021, 12:50:31 PM
Peace Fadiva,

Thank you for your relevant questions.

God wants ease for us, it is for this reason that sick people are exempt. The ideal is to do it in good physical condition. if we are sick, we will know whether or not we can do it.

The trip is incompatible with the purpose of spiritual retreat. You can refrain from eating and drinking while traveling, but it depends on the circumstances of the trip.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 27, 2021, 01:02:38 PM
Article on the attitude of devotion, a look at the qunût in the Koran

http://www.voix-islam-eclaire.fr/2021/01/22/khutba-20-lattitude-de-devotion-un-regard-sur-le-qunut-dans-le-coran-omero-marongiu-perria-22-janvier-2021/

Extract from the article :

My dear co-religionists, in this sermon I suggest that you take a look at some aspects of the believer's devotion. The use of the term devotion, in French, dates back to the 12th century. with the meaning of "religious zeal"; by this we mean religious practices, of course, but more generally the specific devotion of a believer to God through regular, more or less codified practices. Devotion therefore encompasses a fervor, which can be defined as the "outburst of a passionate and enthusiastic heart," 1 as well as reverence, in the sense of a deep and admiring attachment which results in an attitude. general respect and humility in our relationship with God. In my meditative readings of the Koran, I was challenged by the root qnt because it is both an attribute of believers totally devoted to God, but it is also the natural posture of the whole of creation in the sense that it is constantly oriented towards God. I will quote, by way of illustration, verse 26 of sura 30 (The Byzantines):

To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth, all are devoted to Him.

This Qur'anic passage evokes something that eludes many humans, namely the fundamental orientation of the world which naturally inclines to the posture of devotion to God.

There are, in my opinion, two important things which deserve to be meditated here: the first is that of the fundamental orientation which is inscribed at the bottom of us but which, very often unfortunately, escapes us. How to name it? For my part, I will use the Arabic term of fitra, which is generally translated by “primordial nature” or “innate nature” in the sense of a natural disposition to believe and to orient one's life towards God. But it is not so simple because we feel deep inside us, even as believers, that the simple introspection or the contemplation of the world is not enough to be ecstatic in front of the creation to orient oneself immediately and "naturally. To the Creator. This is where the second element comes in, which is related to the experience of life and the experience of acts of devotion. These are not limited to acts of worship, of course, but they encompass all aspects of our existence. This is the deepest meaning of the Arabic term 'ibâda , which is falsely translated as "cult"; the 'ibâdais the direct consequence of religious feeling, of awareness of the vastness of the universe and of the omnipotence of God. It is devotion, the true and deepest, that permeates every moment of our life, and acts of worship are only there to help perfect this orientation.

Two passages from the Koran illustrate my point, the first, verse 9 of sura 39 (Groups), is general:

The one who is in a state of devotion, in the dead of night; he prostrates himself and stands up, worrying about his last life and hoping for the Mercy of his Lord… Say: are those who know the same rank as those who ignore? Only those endowed with reason remember.

The knowledge which is mentioned in this Koranic passage is not of an intellectual order, it is not a question of the 'ilm in the sense of a scientific or academic knowledge, but of the deep conviction of the one who has experienced the relation to the divine and who is in a process which leads him towards spiritual Knowledge. The Qur'an also dwells a great deal on the link between observation of the world and of oneself, on the one hand, and the concrete experience of the divine which anchors conviction deep within. This is in a way the recommendation that God makes to Mary in this second Koranic passage, verse 43 of sura 3 (The family of Imrân):

O, Marie! Be devoted to your Lord; bow down and bow with those who bow [in prayer].

Mary will experience the divine and deep conviction when she prepares to give birth to Jesus at the foot of a palm tree, then when she presents the child to her family.

For their part, the first Muslims seem to have fully understood the deep meaning of devotion since they interpreted the term qânit as the posture of one who attests to his state of dependence on God. This is the deepest sense of faith, which lies at the junction of the deepest intuition, the one with which the fitra has imbued us from the creation of the human being and the consciousness of God which is reflected , among others, through feelings of humility, respect, love, etc. The qunût, another term derived from the root qnt, is associated with the specific position that the believer adopts during his office. It is a question here of being in meditation, during a more or less long time, standing, inclined, sitting, in its reading and / or its meditation.

From there, it is up to each one to found his own experience of the divine, to learn to observe the world and to let emerge what the natural disposition has inscribed in his interior. It is a state of mind and a posture specific to each one, and acts of worship allow us to open a channel of communication with the divine which, if it is useful and primordial, is neither exhaustive nor exclusive since the posture of devotion encompasses our whole being and our whole life, not just the few minutes that we take to perform our office, sometimes very expeditiously.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on February 27, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
An article on spiritual retreat in the Quran. You can translate it with google from French to English.

http://www.voix-islam-eclaire.fr/2020/01/11/la-retraite-spirituelle-en-islam-anne-sophie-monsinay-2/

Extract fron the article :

Spiritual retreat in the Quran

“For many, spiritual retreat is a practice reserved for Sufis, initiates, a sort of elite who would have chosen to consecrate themselves to God with greater fervor than others. Although Sunni orthodoxy has not retained it as part of the pillars of practice, we note that this theme is present on numerous occasions in the Koran.

In the Koranic text, the retreat is often associated with a place: the cave for the sleepers of the sura "The cave", the Kaaba or the mosques. The prophets all retired to various places: the cave of Muhammad, the desert for Jesus, Moses and David, the well of Joseph, the whale for Jonah… We notice that the places can be isolated places in nature, in the 'distance from men, or holy places, reserved for worship such as the Kaaba or mosques.

It was then that We made the Ka`ba temple a place of retreat and a haven of peace for men, recommending them to make Abraham's station a place of prayer. Just as We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael the care of preserving the purity of Our temple for those who will come there to accomplish ritual circuits, to make a retreat or to bow down and meditate. (Quran 2: 125)

We already draw two methods from it: in one case it is done alone, in the other in community (at the Kaaba or in the mosques).

The Koran also fixes a temporal modality for the execution of these retreats at the time of Ramadan. There is of course no religious obligation here. In reality, the notion of religious obligation is hardly present in the Koran. The text proposes practices and often leaves a great deal of leeway and a free choice as to their application. The Arabic term "kitâb" (Koran 4: 103) does not mean "obligation" but "prescription", that is to say a recommendation. In his work, which was the subject of a doctoral thesis, Dr. Al-Ajami explains this distinction very well when he writes: “Always according to the same Koranic coherence, let us specify that a prescription (kitâb) does not is not a requirement. […] Also, by definition, any prescription (kitâb) is not compulsory, it is only a written recommendation. It was only under the influence of legal exegesis specific to the objectives of Islam that the term (kitâb) was superimposed on the meaning of obligation, even of divine law. "1

For retirement, there is therefore no obligation, but an incentive:

Intimacy towards your wives has been made lawful to you during fasting night. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. God knows you've betrayed yourself, so He turned back to you and forgave you. Have a joyful contact with them and long for what God has prescribed for you, and eat and drink until the white thread stands out from the black thread at daybreak. Then complete the fast until the night, and do not have intimate relations with them while you share a retreat in the mosques. These are the limits that God sets! So do not approach them! This is how God makes His Signs explicit to humans! May you beware! (Quran 2: 187)

...

This brings us to the meaning of retirement. In verse 187 of sura 2, the term akifun from the root "gayn ka fa" means "to cleave, to imprison, to be diligent, to indulge in, to dedicate oneself to, to abide, to consecrate oneself, to adjust and to repair, but also the fact of staying constantly in a place to dedicate oneself to something ”. Thus, by this voluntary imprisonment, the person consecrates both to God and to repair or adjust in himself his faults and shortcomings.
Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: jkhan on March 04, 2021, 07:40:22 PM
Salam eceryone....

Few are concerned and questioning me is it Siyam really skipping food and drink and sex or something  else...

All I have to say Siyam = Abstinence (from food and drink and sex basically, meanwhile magnify God as you are capable of)..

In my thorough understanding Siyam never ever merely spiritual retreating ... There is no proof from Quran for that. How much one tries..

Those who still claim that siyam is not skipping food and drink etc,  but spiritually isolating then I have couple of questions.. Pls do respond within Quran...

1... Do you accept that Siyam do END with the fall of Night since God has clearly explained to end siyam 'ila lail? If you don't END at Night, Why? and based on what instructions? Why not end when God says end?

2... When do you START to do siyam according to instructions of Quran? If it is Fajr Why and what makes you feel that you should start spiritual meditation at the beginning of Fajr?  Based on what? Simply where is the instructions to starting point of Siyam ?

If you are not ambiguous in your reply you will only find that skipping food and drink and sex from Fajr to night is the only option and not spiritual retreat whole day...
Only intelligent and guided ones will pay attention to Quran as it deserves..


Title: Re: We as Muslims Have Been Fasting the WRONG fast at the WORNG Time
Post by: Houriya on March 07, 2021, 12:24:07 AM
Peace,

Peace the losttruthofislam, reel and Houriya,
why can't a sick person do it? 

Abstinence from eating and drinking is recommended for many illnesses. Some people have been successful in overcoming their illnesses and improving their health through abstinence.

Practicing intermittent fasting for 16 hours without eating or drinking is important for the proper functioning of the body. for example, stop eating and drinking from 8 p.m. until noon so that the body can take full advantage of autophagy.


Extract : https://www.lanutrition.fr/quest-ce-que-lautophagie

The definition of autophagy :

A form of cellular cleansing, autophagy is necessary for the proper functioning of the body.

The term "autophagy", coined by Nobel Prize winner Christian de Duve, comes from the Greek words auto (oneself) and phagein (to eat). It literally means "to eat yourself".
Autophagy is a form of cellular cleansing : it is a regular and orderly process of breaking down and recycling cellular components when the energy necessary for their survival has become insufficient. When all of the faulty or diseased cellular components have been removed, the body can begin the process of renewal. New cells and tissues are generated to replace those that have been destroyed. The body renews itself in this way.

The cells of the body are like cars, and more and more parts need to be replaced as they age. Over time, it is also necessary to replace subcellular parts , then when the cell becomes too old to warrant repair, it is destroyed to make room for a new healthy cell.
The apoptosis , or programmed cell death, a process that is triggered in the cell when it reaches a certain age and who pushes her to commit suicide. However, when only certain cellular components require replacement, autophagy kicks in.

Over time, unwanted cellular components build up when autophagy-related processes are not regularly activated. This promotes the onset of certain diseases such as cancer. Note that a high level of glucose, insulin and protein can prevent autophagy. Conversely, fasting or endurance activate it