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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Sarah on January 04, 2021, 02:36:40 AM

Title: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 04, 2021, 02:36:40 AM
Peace

So the Qur'an mentions Adam was created from:
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26). And, "He began the creation of man from clay, and made his progeny from a quintessence of fluid" (32:7-8)

What if God created the first living being/ organism (microbes/ bacteria) from clay found in soil from the earth and then over time turns microbes/ bacteria into plants, fish etc., over time turns these into various creatures, then turns some of them into apes and the ape into a human. So in this way, if we say man was created from clay, it wouldn't be wrong since man would have originally been created from clay. Perhaps God created/ shaped the first microbe/ bacteria from soil. The first living organism had to come from somewhere.

There is also a verse that possibly links into this:
'Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.'

Or perhaps the ape-like humans that were claimed to be discovered were originally humans God punished? God has power over all things after all. Perhaps humans were humans from the beginning of time and the skulls of the ape-like humans are not representative of all humans for that specific era.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Wakas on January 04, 2021, 08:44:27 AM
https://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=46

The Quran describes a sequence of events that could be incorporated within an evolutionary process, but with God as the initiator and sustainer, with mankind being given unique qualities at a point in time when ready. Some examples are shown below:
21:30 ...We made out of water every living thing...

11:61 ...He produced you from the earth/land...

76:1 Was there not a time when mankind was nothing to even be mentioned?
76:2 We have created mankind from a mixed exudate...

71:17 God made you grow from the earth as a growth/plant

23:12 And We have created man from an extract from clay.
23:13 Then We made him a drop in an established lodging.

71:14 "And indeed He created you in stages...

6:38 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are communities like you...

6:133 ...He raised you from the seed of another people.

22:5 ...We have created you from dust, then from an exudate/drop, then from a clinging substance, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped...

32:7 The One who perfected everything He created and He began the creation of man from clay.
32:8 Then He made his progeny from an extract of a humble liquid.
32:9 Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His spirit...

29:20 Say, "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was originated...

To conclude, it seems The Quran does not confirm nor rule out the evolutionary process.
It may be interesting to note that the basic theory of evolution can be found in early Muslim works and was not considered controversial. Perhaps the most well known example of this was in the work 'Al Muqaddimah' ('the introduction') by Ibn Khaldun (1377), written more than 400 years before Charles Darwin. Quote:

"One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group.
The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man"
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: reel on January 04, 2021, 09:14:05 PM


To conclude, it seems The Quran does not confirm nor rule out the evolutionary process.
It may be interesting to note that the basic theory of evolution can be found in early Muslim works

All those verses do seem to confirm we evolved. I do believe that's the key to even interpreting Quran.

However, the evolution process explained by modern day biologists has some flaws and maybe even intentional coverups. It doesn't make sense that they avoid the fact that many people use their subconsious mind to evolve themselves any way they like.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Amra94 on January 05, 2021, 08:56:46 AM
Theres no Quranic proof we evolved from apes. Humans were turned into apes as a punishment not the other way around

5:60 Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of ‹aghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way."

7:166 But when they stubbornly persisted in violation, We said to them, “Be disgraced apes!”1
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: hawk99 on January 05, 2021, 01:46:20 PM
Peace

So the Qur'an mentions Adam was created from:
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26).

15:26 And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ صَلْصَالٍ مِنْ حَمَإٍ مَسْنُونٍ



What if God created the first living being/ organism (microbes/ bacteria) from clay found in soil from the earth and then over time turns microbes/ bacteria into plants, fish etc., over time turns these into various creatures, then turns some of them into apes and the ape into a human. So in this way, if we say man was created from clay, it wouldn't be wrong since man would have originally been created from clay. Perhaps God created/ shaped the first microbe/ bacteria from soil. The first living organism had to come from somewhere.

Pure speculation on your part, btw man did not evolve from apes, that is a lie
perpetrated by Darwin and his ilk.



There is also a verse that possibly links into this:
'Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.'

Please identify these "swine" and "apes" are they literal?



Or perhaps the ape-like humans that were claimed to be discovered were originally humans God punished?

:nope:  The so-called missing link has never been found.


God has power over all things after all. Perhaps humans were humans from the
beginning of time and the skulls of the ape-like humans are not representative
of all humans for that specific era.

Those must have been some interesting gatherings among the people:
Sam said to Bill "I noticed you sister's tail is very short!  Bill replied "yeah,
and I see your cousins legs are so long.  Sam retorted at least I don't have
any swine in my family.

                                                                           :peace:
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: tutti_frutti on January 05, 2021, 10:23:18 PM
salam

i think we definately did not evolve from
apes (it is quite absurd to think we did)

my understanding is the following:

apes and swine are very similar to humans because they were made from humans

“say: "shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from The God? those whom The God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. those have a worse place and are more astray from the right path.” (5:60)

the above verse does not contain any adjective regarding what type of apes and aso mentions that apes were created from humans

however, the following verse uses the adject “despicable”

“you have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the sabbath, We said to them: "Be despicable apes!”” (2:65)

The God also mentions He told them “Be” ao rather than being made from humans, the despicable apes are humana transformed into the despicable apes ... which scientists claim are the human ape ancestors

also note the following verse that comes right after the verse quoted above

“so it was that We made it into an example for what was between its hands and also what is after it, and a reminder to the righteous.“ (2:66)

I understand from above The God is telling us He left them as deterrent punshment for those with them and succeeding generations ... and we found their fossils ! and the fossils were found in africa ... those to whom the sabbath was decreed were in egypt which is in africa ...

i do however believe that humans did “evolve” but from within humanity and starting off as humanity ... the following verse we are told that the people of hud had been increased in creation vis-a-vis the people of noah ... so for me that shows a change from a type of human to another (perhaps what scientists (weirdly) call erectus/denisovan to neanderthal or neanderthal to homo sapien)

"are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from among you to warn you? andd remember that He made you successors after the people of noah, and He increased you in vastly in creation. so remember the grace of The God, that you may succeed." (7:69)

also we are told that the like of jesus is like adam .. and jesus was created directly as a human with a simple command from The God and as such i understand so did adam

that is my understanding ... please also verify the verses in arabic

peace
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: good logic on January 06, 2021, 05:08:57 AM
Sister Sarah.
We have another lockdown here in England. Hope you are safe and well.
Anyhow, evolution is a strange subject to discuss as in some way we evolved  and in others we went backwords.
 I often wonder ,in the case of fighting, did we evolve or go backwards?
We started fighting with sticks, then knives and swords, then gun powder, then bullets ,then bombs, then nuclear...And we are still evolving or going backwards to extinction!
As for apes ,well it depends
:
A little girl asked her mother, "How did the human race appear?"

The mother answered, "God made Adam and Eve and they had children, and so was all mankind made.."

Two days later the girl asked her father the same question..

The father answered, "Many years ago there were monkeys from which the human race evolved."

The confused girl returned to her mother and said, "Mom, how is it possible that you told me the human race was created by God, and Dad said they developed from monkeys?"

The mother answered, "Well, dear, it is very simple. I told you about my side of the family and your father told you about his.

Some were still wondering why we have ears this shape?
Because the majority were not using their ears to listen to GOD s message, thankfully after evolution gave them ears a million years ago...Now they finally get to use them to wear masks.
We can now prove evolution wrong.. Why?
Humming birds have existed for thousands of years and they haven't learned the words yet.

Evolution tells us we’ve evolved from apes.
I’m pretty sure we’ve evolved from crabs. You know why? Have you ever held a pair of tongs and NOT clicked them together? I rest my case.

I believe in evolution,I come from Darwin.

Meanwhile, at the Zoo...
... a gorilla is reading. He's holding a Bible in one hand and a book on evolution in the other

**What are you doing, gorilla?**

"I'm trying to decide if I am my brother's keeper, or my keeper's brother".

Finally sister,this fish must have been trying out if evolution is really true?:

A fish lies on the ground outside of his tank, dead.
The two remaining fish in the tank talk to each other:
"What happened?!"
"I don't really know... He just yelled 'EVOLUTION!' and jumped out."

Oh and  a typical human:
A creationist puts his glasses on, gets his magnifying glass and says, reading a statement:
"Evolution can't be real, just look at the human eye!! It's too perfect to be just chance!"

 Me. I like nuts , I enjoy bananas and I am locked down in my home. Wonder where I came from?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 11:56:57 AM
@Wakas

Peace
thanks for the answer.

This verse seems particularly interesting:
'6:133 ...He raised you from the seed of another people.'

But then I wonder what the verse about the likeness of Adam to Jesus is about since I always thought this was about both prophets being fatherless...
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 12:03:27 PM
@Reel

Peace, thanks for answering.

'However, the evolution process explained by modern day biologists has some flaws and maybe even intentional coverups. It doesn't make sense that they avoid the fact that many people use their subconsious mind to evolve themselves any way they like.'

What about it would you say is an intentional cover up and what are some examples of flaws in the theory in your opinion?
Do you mean they use their subconscious to evolve mentally or physically as in for example (mentally) a growth mindset or developing more neural connections in the brain?
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 12:10:59 PM
@Amra94,

Peace thanks for answering.

I also think this might be the case but then I wonder how God created every living creature. In nature, everything seems connected for example dogs descended from the gray wolf, broccoli is related to cauliflower etc. Also stuff like this:

'Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest living relatives.'

Is this all really a coincidence or are all living organisms connected?
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 12:21:44 PM

@Hawk99,

Peace thanks for answering.

'Pure speculation on your part, btw man did not evolve from apes, that is a lie
perpetrated by Darwin and his ilk.'

Where is the evidence that it is a lie?

'Please identify these "swine" and "apes" are they literal?'

It seems quite literal. Do you think God is insulting the idolaters here? Retribution/ punishment is mentioned. How do you interpret the verse?

':nope:  The so-called missing link has never been found.'

Apparently they found skulls and fossils.

'Those must have been some interesting gatherings among the people:
Sam said to Bill "I noticed you sister's tail is very short!  Bill replied "yeah,
and I see your cousins legs are so long.  Sam retorted at least I don't have
any swine in my family.'

God transformed Moses's staff into a real snake and the magicians were amazed.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 12:33:25 PM
@tutti_frutti,

Peace thank you for the answer.

'i think we definately did not evolve from
apes (it is quite absurd to think we did)'

But we look similar to them. The limbs, face etc. is quite similar compared to a shark or a bird.

'the above verse does not contain any adjective regarding what type of apes and aso mentions that apes were created from humans'

Interesting.

'The God also mentions He told them “Be” ao rather than being made from humans, the despicable apes are humana transformed into the despicable apes ... which scientists claim are the human ape ancestors'

I can't remember what they're called but I guess it's the human- ape hybrid. I always used to think it was fake when they said they found skulls as evidence but it probably is true.


'“so it was that We made it into an example for what was between its hands and also what is after it, and a reminder to the righteous.“ (2:66)'

On a side note, I haven't verified for myself if those half ape-human skulls are real instead of faked so is it my fault if I'm not sure if this is really, truly meant as another sign from God? It's not like I'm a scientist who can carbon date it?

'I understand from above The God is telling us He left them as deterrent punshment for those with them and succeeding generations ... and we found their fossils ! and the fossils were found in africa ... those to whom the sabbath was decreed were in egypt which is in africa ...'

That's intriguing. I'll try to research this.

'also we are told that the like of jesus is like adam .. and jesus was created directly as a human with a simple command from The God and as such i understand so did adam'

But is it mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an that Adam was 'directly' created? Perhaps he was not?



Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 01:09:17 PM
@Good logic

Peace thanks for answering.
Yeah it's now tier 5 I hear. Thank you, I hope you are safe and well too. Health & safety first :D

OHH so it depends which side of the family you like most and this becomes your reality? Reality quite flexible

Ears make great holders for pens too...and cash unless freemasons gets rid of cash- then no cash, no point & no is cashpoint

They look like brothers to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPPq7o7TzIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPPq7o7TzIs)

I was surprised how intelligent chimps can be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG8d52cVG_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG8d52cVG_E)


You can believe in both evolution and God. Just because we may have evolved, doesn't mean God is not real. How can organisms evolve to this extent with such complex biology and physiology just by chance? It makes no sense. You can see evidence of intelligence in nature and there are thousands of examples. I know I'm going off topic here but there are convincing arguments for and against God and both seem logical. But as people siding with God, we have a second thing on our sides, signs from God.


Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: hawk99 on January 06, 2021, 01:30:53 PM
@Hawk99,

Peace thanks for answering.

'Pure speculation on your part, btw man did not evolve from apes, that is a lie
perpetrated by Darwin and his ilk.'

Where is the evidence that it is a lie?

 :) It is a lie because it has not been proven to be true.


'Please identify these "swine" and "apes" are they literal?'

It seems quite literal. Do you think God is insulting the idolaters here? Retribution/ punishment is mentioned. How do you interpret the verse?

Metaphorically.




':nope:  The so-called missing link has never been found.'

Apparently they found skulls and fossils.

They have  found skulls and fossils indeed.



God transformed Moses's staff into a real snake and the magicians were amazed.

Yeah, maybe we will discuss that in the future Insha'Allah.

Shalima heard the news about a friend, when she saw her she said,
"I am so sorry about your husband is it true he is now an ape"?
Shalima said yes it is true, he only wanted bananas for dinner and he
lost his job.

                                              :peace:
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Sarah on January 06, 2021, 01:37:23 PM
@hawk99

So what exactly is the metaphor? You think 'ape' is a metaphor for a 'bad person' or a 'sinner?' What about the retribution part, God punished them by turning them into a bad person? How is that a punishment?

So you think the skulls and fossils were faked? Why would they fake it? What would be the point? Even if atheists like to side with evolution, you can still believe in God and evolution.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: jkhan on January 06, 2021, 08:54:24 PM
Peace

So the Qur'an mentions Adam was created from:
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26). And, "He began the creation of man from clay, and made his progeny from a quintessence of fluid" (32:7-8)

What if God created the first living being/ organism (microbes/ bacteria) from clay found in soil from the earth and then over time turns microbes/ bacteria into plants, fish etc., over time turns these into various creatures, then turns some of them into apes and the ape into a human. So in this way, if we say man was created from clay, it wouldn't be wrong since man would have originally been created from clay. Perhaps God created/ shaped the first microbe/ bacteria from soil. The first living organism had to come from somewhere.

There is also a verse that possibly links into this:
'Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.'

Or perhaps the ape-like humans that were claimed to be discovered were originally humans God punished? God has power over all things after all. Perhaps humans were humans from the beginning of time and the skulls of the ape-like humans are not representative of all humans for that specific era.
51:49 "And of all things We created in pairs; perhaps you will remember."........ No sign of evolution...

He created Earth in two days and completed its  sustenance in four days... No sign of evolution......

Don't you see how we created camels.... No sign of evolution....

We created jinn before human...  No sign of evolution...

God says certainly We will recreate, We will give the exact shape of your finger tips... No sign of evolution...

We send down iron from the sky... No sign of evolution...

God controls all His creation.. Without God's control nothing is created.. He creates.. He never used the word evolve..
Every living being is communities like us..  No sign of evolution.....

When Adam son killed his brother,  there was crow and his son slaughtered an animal.. So every living being was around.. Nothing evolved.. Why God gave a sign to Adams son to bury the corpse, coz worms already on the earth to decompose the corpse.. God took 4 days to create Earth's  sustenance out of 6 complete days..not to evolve..
Created things going through its process.. Not evolve...
Do you see how frog looks like when it was in its early stage or do you see how butterfly when it was in its early stage... All these creation... Nothing evolve from another into another creature...
Miracles and signs and destructions are different... Even angels get into the shape of human.. They don't evolve.. God's creation.....

Every living specy gives birth to its own species... That's creation...

We created sun and moon and stars.. And each running in its orbit.. It didn't evolve one after another and joined in orbit.. All perfectly created and set aright and subjected and then only God chose to His Arsh to rule as King...

If one still insist evolution, then the evolution also has to be from God,  so.. Pointless debating if one accept God as Creator.. Don't forget God has attribute of Creator..
Things may look identical for example fox,  dogs, hyena but to conclude one got birth coz of evolution is baseless...  One specy gives birth to its own... Color shape may change but of its own.. One dog may deliver white and black and ash etc puppies... That's fine..
Same human.. God created Adam and eve.. Then spread... So white,  black,  Mongolian, Asian etc God diversified.. Not evolved.. God created what He wants... But all human.. Human doesn't give birth to monkeys OR monkeys don't give birth to human or dog..or jinn doesn't give birth to human vice versa.. Just classifying things to billions of years won't make the reality... Science is so clever to make everything in billion and trillion so that people won't question and won't have any clue...




Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 07, 2021, 02:14:32 AM
peace -- see context they/them seven occurrences ...

7:165-168 فلما so to what (when) نسوا forgot they of ما what ذكروا remind they of به in/with it انجىنا saves we of الذىن the ones ىنهون forbidding عن about السو the evil واخذنا and takes we of الذىن the ones ظلموا wrong they of بعذب in/with punishment بىىس miserable بما in what كانوا be they of ىفسقون disobeying فلما so to what (when) عتوا insolent they of عن about ما what نهوا prohibit they of عنه from it قلنا said we of لهم to them كونوا be ye of قرده monkeys خسىىن despicable واذ and when تاذن proclaim ربك lord your لىبعثن surely raised we علىهم upon them الى to ىوم day القىمه the resurrection من who ىسومهم afflict them سو evil العذب the punishment ان indeed ربك lord your لسرىع surely swift العقاب the penalty وانه and indeed he لغفور surely forgiver رحىم merciful وقطعنهم and sever we them فى in الارض the land امما communities of منهم among them الصلحون the righteous being ومنهم and among them دون besides ذلك such وبلونهم and test we them بالحسنت with the goodness والسىىت and the evil/bad لعلهم perhaps they ىرجعون returning

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/166?handschrift=163

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvq4VZ14/ch7v164-172.jpg)
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: good logic on January 07, 2021, 08:54:46 AM
Sister Sarah.
I agree that we evolved , but as a separate species like all the other species evolved separately.

There is evidence in Qoran of a period of evolution for mankind?
7:10
We have established you on earth, and we have provided for you the means of support therein( provisions). Rarely are you appreciative.
وَلَقَد مَكَّنّٰكُم فِى الأَرضِ وَجَعَلنا لَكُم فيها مَعٰيِشَ قَليلًا ما تَشكُرونَ
7:11
We CREATED you, then we SHAPED you, then we said to the angels, "Usjudu before Adam." They Sajadu except Iblees; he was not with the Sajedeen
وَلَقَد خَلَقنٰكُم ثُمَّ صَوَّرنٰكُم ثُمَّ قُلنا لِلمَلٰئِكَةِ اسجُدوا لِـٔادَمَ فَسَجَدوا إِلّا إِبليسَ لَم يَكُن مِنَ السّٰجِدينَ

For me there are two periods the creation period ( Bashar) then the shaping period ,evolution of Man, to become (Insaan). The test started after the shaping .:
32:7
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and STARTED the CREATION of the human from clay.
الَّذى أَحسَنَ كُلَّ شَىءٍ خَلَقَهُ وَبَدَأَ خَلقَ الإِنسٰنِ مِن طينٍ
32:8
Then He CONTINUED his reproduction through a certain lowly liquid.
ثُمَّ جَعَلَ نَسلَهُ مِن سُلٰلَةٍ مِن ماءٍ مَهينٍ

Therefore Science and seeking answers through searching our origin is a normal curiosity for us to find out how GOD STARTED our CREATION. Indeed we can also search how GOD created our universe and why through investigation/Science.

Darwin was right in that the creation of every living cell started in water as one cell, however he was wrong to claim that cell was simple. It was complex and programmed to produce all the different species at the same time. Just like the complex cell that starts the human being in the womb, it produces the whole person with different organs and a complex brain. DNA complexity that is still being studied and we are finding it amazing and sophisticated programming by an intelligent designer.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Aclon on January 07, 2021, 09:31:07 AM
well i see most people here belief in creationism. while i disagree that gods wants to break his own order in the universe, the origin of life came from combination of water and clay, of course it's not enough to explain everything we know the secret about gods creation but there's experiment of it and it's still a hint about our origin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdNaP5BYaeU

the only difficult part is to find the real identity of adam. evolution is a fact about how species like human changes overtime, how we acquire our hand, feet, spine, and important organs that benefit us in our enviroment. For example native tibetan evolve to make the most of their limited supply of oxygen in their own environment. dark skin helps people in hot climate to protect them from UV light, etc. And the reason why we can have complex communication, coordination, makes order in our community is because we share common ancestor of apes, which already proven can make complex communication and establish order in their own community.

note: brother hawk, please becareful about your understanding. because we are all responsible about the truth of gods creation. its best we understand the world we live in before thinking everything is lie and fall to grace because our own pride and ignorance. of course as scientist, darwin doesn't really think his own work is truth but he still uncover the secret behind gods design about why every living beings is related from their combination of genes. as scientist myself, we must be wary about the knowledge we bear and must uncover the truth so we can keep our faith stronger in gods name.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: reel on January 07, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
@Reel

Peace, thanks for answering.
'However, the evolution process explained by modern day biologists has some flaws and maybe even intentional coverups. It doesn't make sense that they avoid the fact that many people use their subconsious mind to evolve themselves any way they like.'
What about it would you say is an intentional cover up and what are some examples of flaws in the theory in your opinion?
Do you mean they use their subconscious to evolve mentally or physically as in for example (mentally) a growth mindset or developing more neural connections in the brain?

You can check this one: https://www.businessinsider.com/scientific-weaknesses-of-evolution-2012-9#genetics-random-mutations-cause-harm-to-organisms-and-do-not-build-complexity-1

It doesn't make sense that they always want to avoid work of various invisible energies in the evolution process: https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/indeterminate-nature-the-resurgence-of-quantum-biology/

Subconscious mind runs the body and can make changes to it by taking requests. Its power is amplified if the request comes from multiple people and when Quantum physics is added to the equation. That really means evolution can be a personal choice and may take less time to show results. Body seems to be more of a puppet to the mind/consciousness.

For those who have trouble believe in evolution should check out: http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/uoc/PDF-FILES/%2811%29%20Dr.%20Sultan%20Shah_86_2.pdf


Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: hawk99 on January 07, 2021, 02:32:54 PM
well i see most people here belief in creationism.

True


evolution is a fact about how species like human changes overtime,

It's called Mutation my friend.


is because we share common ancestor of apes, 

False, there was no sexual activity that produced a human from a monkey, ape etc.,

note: brother hawk, please becareful about your understanding. because we are all responsible about the truth of gods creation.
its best we understand the world we live in before thinking everything is lie and fall to grace because our own pride and ignorance. of course as scientist, darwin doesn't really think his own work is truth but he still uncover the secret behind gods design about why every living beings is related from their combination of genes. as scientist myself, we must be wary about the knowledge we bear and must uncover the truth so we can keep our faith stronger in gods name.

You continue to believe in Darwin and his ilk of liars and I'll go with what Allah says.

(https://alainamabaso.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/chimp-to-man.jpg)        :nope:
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Aclon on January 07, 2021, 09:17:53 PM
well brother hawk, you still don't have idea of evolution and thinks that every living being have different building blocks than human(cells, chemical structure, genes) which is another creationist flaws. gods create something and still remaining truthful that he made mankind from everything that existed and replicated(in pair) with evolution. but i guess we leave this matter in the end times where the lord confirm the truth of reality. in god everythings in heaven and earth returns.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Cerberus on January 08, 2021, 05:42:36 AM
Imagine there is a truth out there concerning the origin of mankind,
one party puts aside their feelings and wishes, their personal bias etc and seeks the truth armed only with reason and logic to the best of their ability spending a life time doing so...
isn't such party more likely to find the truth and is more deserving of it, as seekers of truth ?

Another party, religious or not, who has done absolutely nothing in the matter, a seeker of comfort and beliefs (although they don't perceive it!), who is filled with personal biases, somehow this person is more entitled to know the truth ?   :o

God has favored us over the other creatures, this, religious people will not cease chanting, but how so ? this they do not care about.

As far as I know, and as little as I know, humans have advanced to what they are now because of reason
From cave-dwellers, with primitive tools, the discovery of fire, the advancement of tools and the advancement of languages, we have evolved and evolved to who we are now, thoughtful people, with laws protecting us from each other and so on, IT IS A MIRACLE ! Again, one needs to realize what faculty, that God has given us and by which God has favored us from the rest of the animals, and by which we are taken from DARKNESS TO LIGHT. Everything is clear.

In regards to morality, in my opinion, one needs to apply that same faculty which allowed us to understand external subjects, to be applied internally, on our emotions and thoughts, on our intents and motives etc, so that we can improve ourselves in a way that befits us humans (rational beings!) and not animals (anger, impulsiveness, selfishness, territorialism, predatory behaviors, etc), such is the good vs evil struggle that we all endure.

Some quotes, from Charles Darwin:

"As man gradually advanced in intellectual power, and was enabled to trace the more remote consequences of his actions; as he acquired sufficient knowledge to reject baneful customs and superstitions; as he regarded more and more, not only the welfare, but the happiness of his fellow-men; as from habit, following on beneficial experience, instruction and example, his sympathies became more tender and widely diffused, extending to men of all races, to the imbecile, maimed,
and other useless members of society, and finally to the lower animals,—so would the standard of his morality rise higher and higher."

Here is the root of evil which Darwin clearly understood:

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system—with all these exalted powers—Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin."

So I owe it to him to read his writings god willingly sometime in the future! If you can't read his writings, atleast check out his quotes.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Wakas on January 08, 2021, 07:33:31 AM
Are people here familiar with this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbY122CSC5w

Humans are not so similar to chimpanzees as is often thought/claimed.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: spodacus on January 08, 2021, 08:01:53 AM
Salam all,

Just wanted to add an input in case no one has said it. The current theory of human evolution isn't that humans evolved from apes. The theory is that humans and apes share a COMMON ancestor in the evolutionary tree. Just wanted to throw that out there since I was seeing a lot of responses that humans comes directly from apes or that humans and apes had sexual relations etc. I don't think any reputable scientist is claiming that.

Also consider looking at evolutionary leaps which is another theory besides the classical "gradual evolution" theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltation_(biology)#:~:text=In%20biology%2C%20saltation%20(from%20Latin,as%20an%20alternative%20to%20Darwinism
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: good logic on January 08, 2021, 08:52:30 AM
There are two types of evolutions :
1= Gods creations and the shaping of the species. That has happened as part of the process . Even earth went through an evolution process to become habitable before that. So the species had to do the same to acquire their shapes and sizes .
Humans, animals,insects...etc have attained their forms that exist now. There is no more of this kind of evolution to come.

2- Evolution as a learning process and the challenge for humans to use their GOD given "thinking and reasoning " advantage over the other creations on the earth and settle here on earth to see how they apply the "responsibility" they accepted from GOD.- To grow their soul/better themselves- and look after earth and its species-.
Now ,unfortunately as well as WELFARE" of humans "WARFARE" of humans has also evolved.And this is where a message from the "Creator and Shaper" needed to be heeded to fulfill that responsibility agreement and balance the two  "WELFARE AND WARFARE".

SO, THE RIGHT QUESTION TO BE ASKING NOW IS:  ARE WE EVOLVING(2) FOR THE BETTER OR WORSE?

There is no doubt that the "hearing,sight and brain" were well established from Adam onwards. Many humans worked hard to use these faculties and help towards the "responsibility". The means were needed and took time for many necessary needs to be acquired.
To say it is only the latest two or three centuries that had "thinking and reasoning " humans is far from the truth.

Each generation fro Adam onwards had its thinkers and pioneers and they all chipped in to where we are.
Can we learn now and heed the message that "WARFARE" has put the progress backwards?
Only then we can live to make things better for the future.
Can we "evolve" ourselves with the right attitude  that unites us together with "love" and "WELFARE"  for each one of us humans?
Then we see what "evolves" after that.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: good logic on January 08, 2021, 12:00:43 PM
For a recap and where Science is with evolution :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRzxTzKIsp8

There will be many unanswered questions on How GOD created and where the elements/building blocks came from, but there is nothing wrong in being curious.
Relax brothers and sisters about views of folks on this complex subject.
GOD has not let us witness any of the creations  from universe to earth to ourselves...etc ,so we are bound to have different views.
Take care.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 08, 2021, 02:00:13 PM
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.” ― Mark Twain

Fact is we don't know! No such thing as evolution; rather mutations or errors in cell replication happens all the time (millions/billions every day) which most mutations die off although once in a while some survive to replicate furthur i.e. new covid strain, cancers, animals, people over time e.g. take a family from Norway flip them with African Pygmies etc. wait a few thousand years watch them switch features although the original 4 bit error correcting smart adaptive chemical code i.e. "the program" with billions of possible permutations was always there! 

Windows which source code was recently hacked has ~50 million lines of code cannot upgrade itself unless programmed to do so by AI etc., better programs/tools create better programs which are crude compared to basic virus or cancer cells are factories in themselves still crude compared to the trillion living cells in our bodies which each cell has the entire blueprints of the person; let's not get into the brain, cognisance, dreaming the future, timespace, etc.

Impossible for even basic molecules of life to form by themselves i.e. from 92 natural elements no matter how much time is given; like leaving rocks to mingle for billions of years then upon return they speak, contemplating their existence after getting a degree answering multiple choice questions at some university like trained monkeys.

8:22 ان indeed شر worst الدواب the creatures عند near/with الله the god الصم the deaf البكم the dumb الذىن the ones لا not ىعقلون reasoning

peace!


Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: reel on January 08, 2021, 06:45:27 PM
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.” ― Mark Twain

Fact is we don't know! No such thing as evolution; rather mutations or errors in cell replication happens all the time (millions/billions every day) which most mutations die off although once in a while some survive to replicate furthur i.e. new covid strain, cancers, animals, people over time e.g. take a family from Norway flip them with African Pygmies etc. wait a few thousand years watch them switch features although the original 4 bit error correcting smart adaptive chemical code i.e. "the program" with billions of possible permutations was always there! 

How do you explain Muslims' contribution to the theory, baby in the womb and us growing up?


Impossible for even basic molecules of life to form by themselves i.e. from 92 natural elements no matter how much time is given; like leaving rocks to mingle for billions of years then upon return they speak, contemplating their existence after getting a degree answering multiple choice questions at some university like trained monkeys.

8:22 ان indeed شر worst الدواب the creatures عند near/with الله the god الصم the deaf البكم the dumb الذىن the ones لا not ىعقلون reasoning

peace!

God is not limited by our outdated mainstream science. If you can imagine some talking rock then it might simply be possible. Nothing is solid.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 08, 2021, 09:31:13 PM
How do you explain Muslims' contribution to the theory, baby in the womb and us growing up?

God is not limited by our outdated mainstream science. If you can imagine some talking rock then it might simply be possible. Nothing is solid.

peace, what does being مسلمون muslimuna/self-effacing have to do with any theory that billion year old bacteria and/or seaweed et al still around today turned into humans or how a tiny speck has all the information i.e. "the program" to grow into a human with a trillion cells, divide/copy, replicate/children, error correcting code, and delete/die etc., thousand other functions?

4:1 ىاىها O you الناس the people اتقوا heeds ye of ربكم lord yours الذى the one خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single وخلق and creation منها from it زوجها spouse its وبث and disperse منهما from them dual رجلا menfolk of كثىرا much of ونسا and womenfolk واتقوا and heeds ye of الله the god الذى the one تسالون thou asking به in/with it والارحم and the wombs/relatives ان indeed الله the god كان be علىكم upon you رقىبا watchful of

39:6 خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single ثم furthermore جعل made منها from it زوجها spouse its وانزل and descends لكم for you من of الانعم l-anami/the cattle (embryonic stem cells?) ثمنىه octet (group of eight) ازوج spouses (4 x 2 pairs) ىخلقكم created you فى in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours خلقا creation of من from بعد after خلق creation فى in ظلمت darkness ثلث three ذلكم such yours الله the god ربكم lord yours له to him الملك the sovereignty لا not اله deity الا except هو he فانى so how تصرفون thou turning

Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/1?handschrift=73

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLZxD2NF/ch3v195-ch4v2.jpg)

London, British Library: Or. 2165 before 750 CE - Parchment
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/6?handschrift=12

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZCyyHF9/ch38v81-ch39v6.jpg)
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Neptin on January 08, 2021, 11:11:20 PM
Peace

I'll just share a couple of verses and what I think about them.

55:14
He created man of clay like the potter's.


The reference to pottery here gives an impression the clay was molded into Adam's figure.

I also see there is disagreement on 15:26 translation.

Word for word translation: And Verily We created man from/of salsalin from/of hama-in masnunin.

Note the transliterated words; salsalin, hama-in, masnunin. Salsalin is clear, dried & sounding clay like pottery(55:4) and hama-in is clear too, mud - mix of water/soil(clay).

And then we come to masnunin, all kinds of translations; altered, molded, fashioned, aged, transmuted. Which is right? What does masnunin mean?

OK, I'll just consult Edward Lane's Arabic English dictionary.

Quote
مَسْنُونٌ [Bitten with the teeth: whence, app., what next follows]. You say أَرْضٌ مَسْنُونَــةٌ and ↓ سَنِينٌ meaning Land of which the herbage has been eaten.

(L, K.) B2: Sharpened, or whetted, or made sharp-pointed, and polished; as also ↓ سَنِينٌ; (M, L, Kwink applied to a knife (K) or thing [of any kind].

(M, L.) Made smooth. (S, L.) Formed, fashioned, or shaped. (S, M, L.) Made long. (L.) You say وَجْهٌ مَسْنُونٌ (assumed tropicalsmiley A face in which is length, without breadth; (مَخْروُطٌwink smooth and even; or smooth and long; or long, and not high in the ball; or soft, tender, thin, and even; as though the flesh were ground (سُنَّ [like as a thing is ground in sharpening and polishing]) from it. (M, L.) And رَجُلٌ مَسْنُونُ الوَجْهِ (assumed tropicalsmiley A man beautiful and smooth in the face: (Lh, M, L, Ksmiley or a man in whose nose and face is length: (S, L, Ksmiley or beautiful and long in the face.
http://lisaan.net/search/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86?cat=50

Going by these, it is more likely that the right translation of "masnunin" is mechanically manipulated mud(clay + water), which may be akin to molding.


In fact, here is further insight from Qur'an.

15:28-29: And when your Lord said to the Angels, Indeed I will create a man of clay, from black mud altered. So, when I have fashioned him and breath into him of my spirit, then fall down to him prostrating.

5:110: Oh Jesus, remember my favor upon you .... when I strengthened you with the spirit .... when you made from clay like the shape of bird by My permission, then you breath into it and it became a bird by My permission.


Here, there seem to be parallel between Jesus creating a bird from molded clay, and God's creation of Adam from clay.

Of course, I might be wrong. But the impression I get from the Qur'an is that wet clay was molded into Adam's statue, then God bestowed life upon the statue and it became man.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: reel on January 09, 2021, 12:58:10 PM
peace, what does being مسلمون muslimuna/self-effacing have to do with any theory that billion year old bacteria and/or seaweed et al still around today turned into humans or how a tiny speck has all the information i.e. "the program" to grow into a human with a trillion cells, divide/copy, replicate/children, error correcting code, and delete/die etc., thousand other functions?

Wait, have you not experienced the harmony of things? When we choose to be peaceful in God's way literally everything suddenly starts to come alive. How about the fact that everything prostrates to God?

He can trigger environmental changes and also stop them. Then of course, biologists need to stop ignoring junk dna. God is not bound by the limitation they impose on themselves. As I said earliar, biology is not the only thing at work.

With verses on evolution, God gives us the message that we should be civilized. We can't go around interpreting his laws in a way that they cause oppression. Also it would be weird to not see that each human body is growing up.

4:1 ىاىها O you الناس the people اتقوا heeds ye of ربكم lord yours الذى the one خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single وخلق and creation منها from it زوجها spouse its وبث and disperse منهما from them dual رجلا menfolk of كثىرا much of ونسا and womenfolk واتقوا and heeds ye of الله the god الذى the one تسالون thou asking به in/with it والارحم and the wombs/relatives ان indeed الله the god كان be علىكم upon you رقىبا watchful of

39:6 خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single ثم furthermore جعل made منها from it زوجها spouse its وانزل and descends لكم for you من of الانعم l-anami/the cattle (embryonic stem cells?) ثمنىه octet (group of eight) ازوج spouses (4 x 2 pairs) ىخلقكم created you فى in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours خلقا creation of من from بعد after خلق creation فى in ظلمت darkness ثلث three ذلكم such yours الله the god ربكم lord yours له to him الملك the sovereignty لا not اله deity الا except هو he فانى so how تصرفون thou turning

Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/1?handschrift=73

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLZxD2NF/ch3v195-ch4v2.jpg)

London, British Library: Or. 2165 before 750 CE - Parchment
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/6?handschrift=12

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZCyyHF9/ch38v81-ch39v6.jpg)

God doesn't change his sunnah. He forbids incest.

As we all know, some verses are still not fully understood by us.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Aclon on January 09, 2021, 10:30:12 PM
Peace

I'll just share a couple of verses and what I think about them.

55:14
He created man of clay like the potter's.


The reference to pottery here gives an impression the clay was molded into Adam's figure.

I also see there is disagreement on 15:26 translation.

Word for word translation: And Verily We created man from/of salsalin from/of hama-in masnunin.

Note the transliterated words; salsalin, hama-in, masnunin. Salsalin is clear, dried & sounding clay like pottery(55:4) and hama-in is clear too, mud - mix of water/soil(clay).

And then we come to masnunin, all kinds of translations; altered, molded, fashioned, aged, transmuted. Which is right? What does masnunin mean?

OK, I'll just consult Edward Lane's Arabic English dictionary.
http://lisaan.net/search/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86?cat=50

Going by these, it is more likely that the right translation of "masnunin" is mechanically manipulated mud(clay + water), which may be akin to molding.


In fact, here is further insight from Qur'an.

15:28-29: And when your Lord said to the Angels, Indeed I will create a man of clay, from black mud altered. So, when I have fashioned him and breath into him of my spirit, then fall down to him prostrating.

5:110: Oh Jesus, remember my favor upon you .... when I strengthened you with the spirit .... when you made from clay like the shape of bird by My permission, then you breath into it and it became a bird by My permission.


Here, there seem to be parallel between Jesus creating a bird from molded clay, and God's creation of Adam from clay.

Of course, I might be wrong. But the impression I get from the Qur'an is that wet clay was molded into Adam's statue, then God bestowed life upon the statue and it became man.
do you mean molded like this
(https://api.intechopen.com/media/chapter/38858/media/image21_w.jpg)
of course we should be careful about interpretation of adam, since it can be metaphorical.
image source:https://www.intechopen.com/books/clay-minerals-in-nature-their-characterization-modification-and-application/role-of-clay-minerals-in-chemical-evolution-and-the-origin-of-life

With verses on evolution, God gives us the message that we should be civilized. We can't go around interpreting his laws in a way that they cause oppression. Also it would be weird to not see that each human body is growing up.

and also kudos to ms. reel for the insight. we shouldn't blindly think everything is lie and interpret gods law with limited understanding about the world he created. let us be rasionalize first and think this clearly with available evidence we got.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Neptin on January 10, 2021, 03:43:19 AM
do you mean molded like this
(https://api.intechopen.com/media/chapter/38858/media/image21_w.jpg)

Yes.
Title: Re: Evolution
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 12, 2021, 09:02:44 AM
God doesn't change his sunnah. He forbids incest.

As we all know, some verses are still not fully understood by us.

peace, there were others including jinn only need two couples ...

adam & spouse ....... ?? & spouse
s1 ....... d1 ....... ....... s2 ....... d2
| ........ |---> d3 s3 <--- | ....... |
|------------> s4 d4 <----------- |

s1 marries d2
s2 marries d1

s3 marries d4 1st cousin uncle's daughter
s4 marries d3 1st cousin aunt's daughter

S4 ....... d4 ....... ....... s3 ....... d4
| ........ |---> d5 s5 <--- | ....... |
|------------> s6 d6 <----------- |


7:11 ولقد and surely خلقنكم creation we you (pl.) ثم furthermore صورنكم fashion we you (pl.)
 ثم furthermore قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers (angels) …

7:24 قال said اهبطوا inclines (leaves) ye of بعضكم some you (pl.) لبعض to other/s عدو enemy ولكم and for you فى in الارض the land مستقر designation ومتاع and wherewithal الى to حىن period

18:50 واذ and when قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers اسجدوا prostrates they of لادم to Adam فسجدوا so prostrate they of الا except ابلىس Iblis كان be/was من of الجن the jinn ففسق so disobedient عن about امر directive ربه lord his افتتخذونه indeed so thou take him وذرىته and progeny his اولىا allies من from (besides) دونى other than me وهم and/while they لكم for you عدو enemy بىس wretched للظلمىن for the wrongdoers بدلا exchange of

114:6 من from الجنه the jinn kind والناس and the people