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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: jkhan on November 14, 2020, 10:44:27 PM

Title: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 14, 2020, 10:44:27 PM
Peace everyone....

What in fact life span is? 
Are we really destined to live from birth to death a certain predestined period or it can be changed..
Every soul will taste the death.. So.. Death is common to all even how it comes or occur in each individual's life (natural or unnatural) .

3:145 "And it is not for one to die except by permission of Allah at a decree determined....."

5:32 "... ... And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. ...."

My concern is,  if one saves a life of another from death it means he is not destined to death on the day he was saved.. But what if he doesn't save.. Is it his destiny? Is that his life span..
For example if one poisons two men and sends one to hospital and the other not... Suppose the one sent to hospital is saved the other died.. So is this life span? Is it really the predestined life span or premature or untimely death?
If one suicide and died and another attempted to suicide and was saved... Life span is in whose hand in fact?

Suppose... If one experienced a heart attack and his family rushed him to hospital on time.. Doctor says you brought him in time a slight delay could have been his death... So what if they brought him after long delay... Most Probably he would have died...
What if you don't feed a bedridden patient for week or so,  who will feed him?  Since the bedridden patient is well taken care of he is in good condition unless he has any other disease.. But if he was not taken care of, then what?  What decides the life span?
Are we all responsible in a way for each others life span? doesn't all human deserve their full quota of long life since we are here to be tested?

I don't care about natural deaths,  even after all efforts being taken to save from death one still denying to stay alive.. That's fine.. I can consider a life span evidently... So natural deaths are pretty much in line with life span if died after having reasonably long life....
But what about so many tens of thousands of death daily which is opposite to natural...  Is that life span?
God says.. When people in hell,
35:37 "Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): "Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!" - "Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition?" 
Does it mean only those who had long life span in this earth will be in hell and not those who died prematurely...  May be God addresses by that verse only those who had a long life.. By this verse who were not given long life cannot be considered..  Can He? Or else they had two lives.. One of them was long at least..

Coz.. Life span of a person is imperative to decide from God's point of view one to Janna and Jahanna... Is it possible for God to put millions of babies who die in hell... While He question those in Hell,  Didn't I give you long life?
But every soul regardless how they die and in what age they die,  each will face the day of ressurection and every soul will be responsible for what they did... God promises to give the record in hand in which everything is recorded... What can you expect in a child's record book who hardly spoke a word?

So without giving a LONG LIFE span God would not decide what He decides on the day of judgement... Coz our speachs, our actions,  our intent etc etc will be in the record we are to receive to read... That's not possible for one who didn't have a long life...
So..  Life span should be long..  If a ten year old boy died,  and malaika recorded everything what he did, in it what can you expect him to be done and spoken rather than what normally all boys would do... What kind of evidence that could be to decide he is eligible for Janna or Jahanna... Impossible.. That's why I believe in two lives...but if two lives given then it sad end.. But life span of believers will be long and one... Does it mean a believer cannot die underaged?  Probably Yes... A disbeliever can die underaged coz either he has had a life already or has another chance ... Now do you understand why that boy who was killed by Musa's teacher?  I know most will not agree with me.. Coz they will have loads of questions.. They may ask what is the destiny of those who die in Palestine, Syria Afghanistan etc being innocent children.

What can we decide according to Quran?  Life span is vital... Without long life span God cannot implement what He promised.. That's my understanding...
Your understanding is welcome
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 15, 2020, 09:54:17 PM
When I read Quran, I don't come across that children or underaged people are destined for Hell...but all of them seems matured people by the tone of Quranic verses.. To accept and reject God in the given life, you need certain time in life... Needs maturity by age at least if not by knowledge... Long life span is indispensable... But needless to say not all will have long life (enough time) ..
God created men and Jin to see who is good in deeds... That core purpose is far-fetching if not given long life..
Adam to the last one to die on this earth will be questioned and what they did will be measured... Non will escape... One who died in one day or who died after 100 years all will be questioned... God is fair.. If one was given 100 years of life span and according to what he did if he was destined to hell and then the one who died at the age of one if he is to be pardoned just coz he was not given long life then there is no justice from God's side.. Never.. Did the 100 year old person requested himself to give him long life?  What if his life was taken at the age of one.. He could have escaped from punishment...
So.. No one escapes from being punished... But not without giving long life... So undeniably those who died underaged would have got another life which was long enough.. It doesn't mean that one cannot get two long lives.. Isn't life span crucial? Isn't one long life enough for a believer if he died as believer? Of course enough..
Do anyone think that on the day of ressurection, any human being would stand in front of God without having to go full life span ? Why Allah didn't create Adam as a baby but instead a well grown man? Isn't the rough age of Adam when he was created may be the starting point of real life for any human being .. How old was Adam looking like when he has been given life? When actually malaika start recording
what we do?  Is it from birth or?? 50:18 says.. Not utters he a word but recorders are ready.. So.. Babies don't utter a word...

According to 50:21 why babies need Driver and Witness with their record..

Life span has to be complete... Complete in the sense.. At least 40 years of age and above... Without giving enough time,  God has no authority to decide... That's human right.. Okay we may be human.. But we are not the one who decided to create us... God is just... He gave the reason to send down the Quran at regular intervals is to just make the Messenger's heart strong... So time is needed.. So why not we need long life.. So fair..
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 18, 2020, 03:44:25 AM
74:40-45 "In Gardens they will ask one another Concerning the guilty(mujrim), What hath brought you to this burning?They will answer: We were not of those who prayed Nor did we feed the wretched. We used to wade (in vain dispute) with (all) waders


Above verses has given a clear indication that to be worth in Janna we need to practice certain things in current life.. Likewise to be part of hell fire we need to deny certain things in life...
To do or deny we need a life span.. Dont we?

Even verses like inhabitants of hell calling out inhabitants of Janna vice versa is really interesting.. 7:50 7:44 etc to conclude ....
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 25, 2020, 06:22:58 PM
Peace..

I thought someone would have something to on this topic,  but it seems no one has anything to say..

So I kindly request admin to remove this topic...

Thank you
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 25, 2020, 09:31:44 PM
salam jkhan

you say “ Life span has to be complete... Complete in the sense.. At least 40 years of age and above... Without giving enough time,  God has no authority to decide...”

this is very incorrect and not good to say ... The God HAS authority to do whatever He wants .. He IS the authority and the ONLY authority

if He wanted He would send everything and everyone to hell directly without even going through wordly life .. He does what He wants literally

regarding life span, well we just do not know. we could speculate and say people are given second earthly life or that those who died very young go to paradise or The God knows their future and knows their would be choices in life or this or that or or ... but we have no idea .. The God knows

in my opinion someone in their teenage years could be judge .. why not? what defines the age of reason? or you using the verse about 40 to define age of reason?

anyways we simply do not know .. ONLY The God knows

peace :)
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 26, 2020, 01:47:09 AM
salam jkhan

you say “ Life span has to be complete... Complete in the sense.. At least 40 years of age and above... Without giving enough time,  God has no authority to decide...”

this is very incorrect and not good to say
... The God HAS authority to do whatever He wants .. He IS the authority and the ONLY authority

if He wanted He would send everything and everyone to hell directly without even going through wordly life .. He does what He wants literally

regarding life span, well we just do not know. we could speculate and say people are given second earthly life or that those who died very young go to paradise or The God knows their future and knows their would be choices in life or this or that or or ... but we have no idea .. The God knows

in my opinion someone in their teenage years could be judge .. why not? what defines the age of reason? or you using the verse about 40 to define age of reason?

anyways we simply do not know .. ONLY The God knows

peace :)

Peace TF

Thanks for your interest in this topic...

Can you support your claim with Quranic verses... Why you think that life span is not compulsory to test a person...
God says He has not wronged anyone but we wronged ourselves... To be wrong ourselves, don't we need a life span...
I don't understand your emotional reply... On the day trumpet is blown,  billions of babies and children and teens will die.. Do you think they were tested?  Do you they won't be resurrected... Pls speak within Quran...
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 26, 2020, 10:29:58 AM
salm jkhan

i did not say that life span is not important

i said we do not know what it means to have a complete life span and we do not know what constitutes a “life span”

it was not an emotional response i simply said you cannot say The God has no authority for whatever .... The God has authority to do whatever He wants

and yes He does not wrong His servants as He told us but that does not change the fact that He does what He wants .. He decided to not wrong His servants ... it was His choice to not wrong His servants

all we can perhaps infere is that the people in hell had enough of a life to make choices as per the below verse

and they will cry out therein, "Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness - other than what we were doing!" but did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? so taste, for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper. (35:37)

i asked myself too about those who died very young or those who will die very young the moment the hour hits ... but i resolved myself to the fact that I do not know ...

and to answer you whether i think they will be resurrected ... i think we ALL will be resurrected, no exemption for anyone, and we will all face The God on judgement day and that a group will be judged and a group will be exempt from judgement by The God’s mercy, forgiveness and extreme kindness

same as when pharaoh asked moses pbuh about those who passed before them and moses pbuh replied that the knowledge is with The God ... we simply do not know

“And when the souls are paired.

And when the girl killed in infancy is asked,

For what crime was she killed” (81:7-9)

i think theses verses perhaps relate to occurences during judgement day. i understand from the verse that perhaps the child will be a child during judgment day and not adult

what do you make of the above verses about the child? how do you understand the above verses in the context of your question about “life span”?


peace
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: good logic on November 26, 2020, 12:09:41 PM
Peace jkhan.
Look at how many other questions we can ask  GOD about our lives here on earth:
1- Why am I human?
2-Why am I born at this particular time and place?
3-Why these specific parents,family,race... for me?
4-Why is there a limit to how much I can know?
5- Why are we not all born at the same time  with the same colour ,in the same place with the same start in knowledge,wealth,experience...etc and all die the same age?
... and so many more

 Qoran says  there is a reason for everything,GOD knows everything and GOD does everything perfectly.
According to Qoran:
We know we accepted the "responsibility to live  for another chance  and agreed  that GOD is "our only Lord".
We know we are going to die , be resurrected and be accountable for our life on earth.
We also know that we can be tried  to see if we choose the right way or wrong way. This trial can also include tried by each other for each other.

For example if I choose the wrong way and decide to kill  for some reason/s and I happen to kill an innocent child for being in my way,then GOD will not stop me( I have the right to choose and GOD gave me my span and choice). In the same way another person can kill me if they are threaten or want to save others from  being killed by me(GOD also will not interfere in their choice). They have the right to defend themselves and others.

Our choices and decisions are the real reason there is suffering,good,bad, illnesses.. people dying at all stages of their life...etc.

When GOD stops the trial that is when GOD interferes in our lives and the trial will stop.

The fact that we start at new born and need to learn many basic things , the trial will start at a certain age- age of responsibility- and finishes when we die.
 The span of life differ in people according to GOD s knowledge of them not according to ours.

So what happens to those that did not reach the age of responsibility ,those who got  very little time to search their purpose to redeem themselves and the ones that are "disabled£ -not able to take on any responsibility...etc. .

Qoran says GOD has planned for all the differences and situations.  GOD is distributing the souls in every generation according to His prior  knowledge of all of us.
GOD tells us about the group that are not assigned to either heaven or hell at the resurrection_ Ashab Al Aaraf- They are not being judged and watching as GOD is assigning the other two groups,then they are invited to enter paradise. Who are they? Are they the souls that did not have the chance to do or complete the trial?
Do we know to what extend some of us have rebelled before this life? May be some more than others? Is it fair to try everyone equally if the rebellion was more severe with some?
GOD is fair and just and He will judge all of us fairly  We will know for sure all the answers when meeting GOD.

WE CANNOT KNOW THE DETAILS OF EACH SOUL AND HOW SEVERE WAS THEIR REBELLION BEFORE BUT GOD KNOWS AND  IS ASSIGNING THE HUMANS ACCORDING TO THAT KNOWLEDGE.

We know we can trust GOD and that there must be a good reason behind each life . The main point is that things that seem to be unfair here are what we can call "blessing in disguise" by GOD for those injustices in our life.
They will be rewarded like all the animals and other creations that have not accepted the responsibility and repented .
My take.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 27, 2020, 05:33:13 AM
salm jkhan

i did not say that life span is not important

i said we do not know what it means to have a complete life span and we do not know what constitutes a “life span”

it was not an emotional response i simply said you cannot say The God has no authority for whatever .... The God has authority to do whatever He wants

and yes He does not wrong His servants as He told us but that does not change the fact that He does what He wants .. He decided to not wrong His servants ... it was His choice to not wrong His servants

all we can perhaps infere is that the people in hell had enough of a life to make choices as per the below verse

and they will cry out therein, "Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness - other than what we were doing!" but did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? so taste, for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper. (35:37)

i asked myself too about those who died very young or those who will die very young the moment the hour hits ... but i resolved myself to the fact that I do not know ...

and to answer you whether i think they will be resurrected ... i think we ALL will be resurrected, no exemption for anyone, and we will all face The God on judgement day and that a group will be judged and a group will be exempt from judgement by The God’s mercy, forgiveness and extreme kindness

same as when pharaoh asked moses pbuh about those who passed before them and moses pbuh replied that the knowledge is with The God ... we simply do not know

“And when the souls are paired.

And when the girl killed in infancy is asked,

For what crime was she killed” (81:7-9)

i think theses verses perhaps relate to occurences during judgement day. i understand from the verse that perhaps the child will be a child during judgment day and not adult

what do you make of the above verses about the child? how do you understand the above verses in the context of your question about “life span”?


peace
Peace...  TF

Thank you again for your reply...

Brother.. We don't know is not the answer to every question.. Let's  limit our questions within Quran.. Let's see we have answers within Quran... I asked question in my initial threads connecting with Quran...

We can say we don't know when we don't have a choice within Quran..
God is not God when He is unfair... It is not His quality of being unfair... Restrict your wording within Quran.. Where in Quran God has said He has all the authority to do anything be it fair or unfair.. God has / is limited when He has promised after creations... He spoke through Messengers not to neglect after speaking... Once He spoke thst remains His final Decision ... We trust that.. We keep faith on it.. If He's to break it then,  that's not God... God gave s word to Iblees as well.. Did He break?  No.... God does what He will.. That's true... But God never breaks His promise... So let's go in line with Quran.. So we know what He has promised.. That won't change and that will happen and that has to happen... Coz it is upon Him as responsibility... If God can't be true to His promise,  how He can expect any good from His creatures... I look at God in that angle...

Would you pls bring evidence to support your claim that group will be exempted from judgement? How unfair that is... Do you think people on that day will be silence seeing that God exempted a group.. Why they deserve so?
Brother... Only three groups on that day.. One on the front... One on right.. One on left... No babies.. No mentallly ill people etc.. All are listening carefully to judgement.. All will read their own record... They all think of non but themselves only ...

Regarding your questions...
Musa only said what He knew... ... How musa knows what happened to those before him?...  Do I know what happened to my ancestors?  No..  Say you don't know when you don't know... That's the best... But not when you have answers in Quran... See the difference... Why musa saud to his teacher why you killed an innocent boy?  Coz musa knew killing an innocent is wrong... So he spoke the right thing...  But God knew what Musa's teacher did... That musa doesn't know..

Regarding child.. 81:7-9...
Brother.. The one who is killed not necessary to enter Janna coz someone killed him... But God questions our actions and our speach... Not coz those children were killed and they deserve emotions and better place... One evil person may harm another evil person for lifetime.. But it doesn't mean one deserve pardon... Just stick to the point that God questions every soul.. Problem solved... Everything will be measured of their life time.. And will be given what they deserve...


Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 27, 2020, 05:40:53 AM
Peace jkhan.
Look at how many other questions we can ask  GOD about our lives here on earth:
1- Why am I human?
2-Why am I born at this particular time and place?
3-Why these specific parents,family,race... for me?
4-Why is there a limit to how much I can know?
5- Why are we not all born at the same time  with the same colour ,in the same place with the same start in knowledge,wealth,experience...etc and all die the same age?
... and so many more

 Qoran says  there is a reason for everything,GOD knows everything and GOD does everything perfectly.
According to Qoran:
We know we accepted the "responsibility to live  for another chance  and agreed  that GOD is "our only Lord".
We know we are going to die , be resurrected and be accountable for our life on earth.
We also know that we can be tried  to see if we choose the right way or wrong way. This trial can also include tried by each other for each other.

For example if I choose the wrong way and decide to kill  for some reason/s and I happen to kill an innocent child for being in my way,then GOD will not stop me( I have the right to choose and GOD gave me my span and choice). In the same way another person can kill me if they are threaten or want to save others from  being killed by me(GOD also will not interfere in their choice). They have the right to defend themselves and others.

Our choices and decisions are the real reason there is suffering,good,bad, illnesses.. people dying at all stages of their life...etc.

When GOD stops the trial that is when GOD interferes in our lives and the trial will stop.

The fact that we start at new born and need to learn many basic things , the trial will start at a certain age- age of responsibility- and finishes when we die.
 The span of life differ in people according to GOD s knowledge of them not according to ours.

So what happens to those that did not reach the age of responsibility ,those who got  very little time to search their purpose to redeem themselves and the ones that are "disabled£ -not able to take on any responsibility...etc. .

Qoran says GOD has planned for all the differences and situations.  GOD is distributing the souls in every generation according to His prior  knowledge of all of us.
GOD tells us about the group that are not assigned to either heaven or hell at the resurrection_ Ashab Al Aaraf- They are not being judged and watching as GOD is assigning the other two groups,then they are invited to enter paradise. Who are they? Are they the souls that did not have the chance to do or complete the trial?
Do we know to what extend some of us have rebelled before this life? May be some more than others? Is it fair to try everyone equally if the rebellion was more severe with some?
GOD is fair and just and He will judge all of us fairly  We will know for sure all the answers when meeting GOD.

WE CANNOT KNOW THE DETAILS OF EACH SOUL AND HOW SEVERE WAS THEIR REBELLION BEFORE BUT GOD KNOWS AND  IS ASSIGNING THE HUMANS ACCORDING TO THAT KNOWLEDGE.

Why assign?  I hope you know we'll why assign...

We know we can trust GOD and that there must be a good reason behind each life . The main point is that things that seem to be unfair here are what we can call "blessing in disguise" by GOD for those injustices in our life.
They will be rewarded like all the animals and other creations that have not accepted the responsibility and repented .
My take.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace.. GL..

I brought this topic coz there is answers in Quran to substantiate..

You say you can ask lots of questions like you mentioned above... Don't you think there is no answer for those questions  in Quran..?

Don't confuse ahasb a'raf ... God forgave them and put them in Janna... Remember.. FORGAVE and JANNA... they were not babies or innocent disable people.. But recognize everything... Read carefully those verses.. Forgave coz they did wrong... Like we all do and did... But they didn't deserve Jahanna and they deserved Janna...and they will enjoy loke other inmates of Janna... Did they get free ticket to Janna?  No way... No one enters there without hard work... No one enters hell but most wicked... To be most wicked you need life span... To enter you need life span... So simple... That's God's way... So we within Quran... I do believe that every single soul has lived at least once in their life time a complete life span... To say so.. For most God has given two lives...
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 27, 2020, 10:07:07 AM
salam jkhan

1) i do speak within Quran (it’s the only book of knowledge form The God we have) i am saying that within Quran we do not know what happens to those who died very young... i dont see (at least as of yet) the answer in the Quran to your question except that those who will be in life will have had a life long enough to deserve hell (surah 35 verse 37)

what does life long enough mean in that verse? what happens to those who die very young? no idea ... but from Quran 35:37 i understand those in hell had a “long enough life”

can we base life span on surah 46 verse 15? i do not know ...

also remember that those in hell will say that they were given life twice and killed twice ...

2) i never said The God is not fair ... The God is fair ! all GOOD names are His. He IS the Just.

i said The God does what He wants and He CHOSE to have mercy on all things and to be just and given He is the truth and told us He will be just ... then i understand He will be just ... again my point is that He does what He wants and that He “chooses” and is NEVER obligated to do anything

example if He wanted to not resurrect us He would not. But He made it a promise to ressurevt us so He will. He CHOSS to resurrect us and CHOSE to make it a promise to resurrect.

i never said he is not true to His promise... i said He chose to be merciful and just ... He is the truth and so whatever He told us in The Quran is the truth

basically the point i am making is that He choses and is never obligated to do anything

example there was a verse where he said He decreed mercy on Himself and not that He haaaaad to be merciful from the start to His creation

3) what i meant by exempt of judgement is that (per my u derstanding) of the three groups two will not be judged (forerunners and people of fhe right) because The God forgave them as He judged they are believers  and have done good works but those of the left will be judged ... i remember a verse where The God says somethinf among the lines of “they will be summoned to judgment” where i understood that the people of hell will be summoned to judgement but those of paradise will be forgiven and not judged

my u derdtandong is the people on the left will be judged fully in that they will stand before The God alongside that which they worshiped (the jinn) and every one of the left people and the devil companion assigned to each pf the rejectors that they called upon/worshipped will start to blame each other and be judged ...

so by being judged i mean they will stand “trial” in front of The God whilst the other two groups have been jugded worthy of paradise

4) i am sorry but i dont understand your answer about the moses pbuh discussion

my point by citing that episode was to give an example that there are things we do not know

5) i never said the child will be in paradise or whatso or that just cause someone was killed they will enter paradise ! (i understand being killed is just another way of dying that is all) .. the knowledge of everyone is with The God ...

my point  was that can we infere from the verse that on judgement day the child will be a child .. so did she have a second chance at life as an adult? or her worldly life was limited to her having existed as a child only? we have no idea

you say “Not coz those children were killed and they deserve emotions and better place... One evil person may harm another evil person for lifetime.. But it doesn't mean one deserve pardon... Just stick to the point that God questions every soul.. Problem solved... Everything will be measured of their life time.. And will be given what they deserve... “

there you go ! you ANSWERED your own question/thread brother :)

peace
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: good logic on November 27, 2020, 12:10:42 PM
Peace jkhan.
You say quoteL
"Don't confuse ahasb a'raf ... God forgave them and put them in Janna... Remember.. FORGAVE and JANNA... they were not babies or innocent disable people.. But recognize everything... Read carefully those verses.. Forgave coz they did wrong... Like we all do and did... But they didn't deserve Jahanna and they deserved Janna...and they will enjoy loke other inmates of Janna... Did they get free ticket to Janna?  No way... No one enters there without hard work... No one enters hell but most wicked... To be most wicked you need life span... To enter you need life span... So simple... That's God's way... So we within Quran... I do believe that every single soul has lived at least once in their life time a complete life span... To say so.. For most God has given two lives..."

You do not know who they are neither do I. GOD can also forgive (THE PAST LIFE REBELLION)  those that had not got the chance for a life span like babies or. disabled or.....   and give them Janna Why not?

Or what are you suggesting?
I am not going to guess or speculate, GOD has got good reasons and is aware of all the situations. His plan caters for all of us no matter how long the life span.
We cannot know certain things but we know  for sure that GOD will sort us out with justice according to HIS knowledge ,wisdom and Mercy.
The most important  issue is each individual will be satisfied with GOD s judgement.
The most important question is: What is our own life span and what are we doing with it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 27, 2020, 01:23:32 PM
salam

i just want to share my understanding about people of a3raf and verses concerning them

i understand they are not a “special” category of people

rather i believe they are simply those whom The God has forgiven and permitted them paradise

being on the elevations (a3raf) is a step before entering paradise perhaps

that’s my understanding

peace
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 27, 2020, 05:58:34 PM
salam jkhan

1) i do speak within Quran (it’s the only book of knowledge form The God we have) i am saying that within Quran we do not know what happens to those who died very young... i dont see (at least as of yet) the answer in the Quran to your question except that those who will be in life will have had a life long enough to deserve hell (surah 35 verse 37)

what does life long enough mean in that verse? what happens to those who die very young? no idea ... but from Quran 35:37 i understand those in hell had a “long enough life”

can we base life span on surah 46 verse 15? i do not know ...

also remember that those in hell will say that they were given life twice and killed twice ...

2) i never said The God is not fair ... The God is fair ! all GOOD names are His. He IS the Just.

i said The God does what He wants and He CHOSE to have mercy on all things and to be just and given He is the truth and told us He will be just ... then i understand He will be just ... again my point is that He does what He wants and that He “chooses” and is NEVER obligated to do anything

example if He wanted to not resurrect us He would not. But He made it a promise to ressurevt us so He will. He CHOSS to resurrect us and CHOSE to make it a promise to resurrect.

i never said he is not true to His promise... i said He chose to be merciful and just ... He is the truth and so whatever He told us in The Quran is the truth

basically the point i am making is that He choses and is never obligated to do anything

example there was a verse where he said He decreed mercy on Himself and not that He haaaaad to be merciful from the start to His creation

3) what i meant by exempt of judgement is that (per my u derstanding) of the three groups two will not be judged (forerunners and people of fhe right) because The God forgave them as He judged they are believers  and have done good works but those of the left will be judged ... i remember a verse where The God says somethinf among the lines of “they will be summoned to judgment” where i understood that the people of hell will be summoned to judgement but those of paradise will be forgiven and not judged

my u derdtandong is the people on the left will be judged fully in that they will stand before The God alongside that which they worshiped (the jinn) and every one of the left people and the devil companion assigned to each pf the rejectors that they called upon/worshipped will start to blame each other and be judged ...

so by being judged i mean they will stand “trial” in front of The God whilst the other two groups have been jugded worthy of paradise

4) i am sorry but i dont understand your answer about the moses pbuh discussion

my point by citing that episode was to give an example that there are things we do not know

5) i never said the child will be in paradise or whatso or that just cause someone was killed they will enter paradise ! (i understand being killed is just another way of dying that is all) .. the knowledge of everyone is with The God ...

my point  was that can we infere from the verse that on judgement day the child will be a child .. so did she have a second chance at life as an adult? or her worldly life was limited to her having existed as a child only? we have no idea

you say “Not coz those children were killed and they deserve emotions and better place... One evil person may harm another evil person for lifetime.. But it doesn't mean one deserve pardon... Just stick to the point that God questions every soul.. Problem solved... Everything will be measured of their life time.. And will be given what they deserve... “

there you go ! you ANSWERED your own question/thread brother :)

peace

I understand you... If you are speaking within Quran,  I am not against it and will never be..

Every verse which talks about people of Jahanna and Janna they seems clearly spent a long life to remind about their past...

Your statement "basically the point i am making is that He choses and is never obligated to do anything"

Wrong... He is obligated... He took everything as His obligation.... By promising that He will repeat the creation He took it as His obligation...

If He wants He can avoid his obligations.. That's His will...no one to complain.. But,  He won't... As He spoke in quran.. "If I were to destroy  Maryam and Jesus and everyone on earth......." So,  He can... But He won't... That's why we call Him our God.. He is Truth.. So as human, just expect what He spoke... Who is truthful than God?...  That clearly indicates whatever He spoke will happen...
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 27, 2020, 07:03:09 PM
Peace jkhan.
You say quoteL
"Don't confuse ahasb a'raf ... God forgave them and put them in Janna... Remember.. FORGAVE and JANNA... they were not babies or innocent disable people.. But recognize everything... Read carefully those verses.. Forgave coz they did wrong... Like we all do and did... But they didn't deserve Jahanna and they deserved Janna...and they will enjoy loke other inmates of Janna... Did they get free ticket to Janna?  No way... No one enters there without hard work... No one enters hell but most wicked... To be most wicked you need life span... To enter you need life span... So simple... That's God's way... So we within Quran... I do believe that every single soul has lived at least once in their life time a complete life span... To say so.. For most God has given two lives..."

You do not know who they are neither do I. GOD can also forgive (THE PAST LIFE REBELLION)  those that had not got the chance for a life span like babies or. disabled or.....   and give them Janna Why not?

Or what are you suggesting?
I am not going to guess or speculate, GOD has got good reasons and is aware of all the situations. His plan caters for all of us no matter how long the life span.
We cannot know certain things but we know  for sure that GOD will sort us out with justice according to HIS knowledge ,wisdom and Mercy.
The most important  issue is each individual will be satisfied with GOD s judgement.
The most important question is: What is our own life span and what are we doing with it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Your statement "You do not know who they are neither do I. GOD can also forgive (THE PAST LIFE REBELLION)  those that had not got the chance for a life span like babies or. disabled or.....   and give them Janna Why not?"

Did God say that He forgives and give them Janna?  God has clearly said who deserves Janna and who deserves Jahanna.. No changes would  be on that..

God destroyed nations where babies and differently able or  mentally ill etc etc would have lived.. For example.. During well known 2004 tsunami tens of thousands of babies died... Those who were left saved are good or given their life span.. God destroyed... No one but God did that .. If human killed a girl and God says it will be questioned why she was killed.. No one to ask why God killed at the same time... But human cannot kill, no authority..

Musa's teacher obviously killed an innocent boy not even asked his parents.... Interestingly reason to kill him is he would become a tyrant /oppressor in the future... Wow... Will that be a good choice in the current system of law... Every human on this earth would probably against that barbaric act...
Killing a boy expecting him to be a tyrant or rather evil person.. What a shame... He is not evil while he was killed(in our eyes) .. . He was just an innocent boy(at least musa said so) ... Why not kill him when in fact he's evil when well grown.. Why not kill him when in fact he becomes oppressing and hurting his parents...Why not give him  LIFE SPAN? What's wrong if he tortures his parents (he can be judged on the judgement day) . Why kill in advance while he didn't commit such a crime yet?  Do you get how serious that is?

How would  you justify this?
That's why I believe in life span and two times for evil people(disbeliever)... Didn't God know this boy was evil in his last life span and lived his full quota? Yes God knew... Will those who get their second life be ever good again?  I am afraid No... Coz they themselves in Hell agree that they were given two lives and two deaths... But still ended in hell.. But believers claim in Janna they died once..

God rightly killed that boy coz his life/test completed... Sameway.. All those God destroy/ed immature God knows they deserve not coz they are babies or innocent or mentally ill but they were evil in their past lives...

Now.. Let's hope on the day of ressurection, this same boy questions God.. In this manner .. Why you killed me God while I was innocent.. I never tortured my parents(his parents also agree suppose coz they were not tortured) .. I never knew anything.. I was just a little boy... How unfair you are my Lord... Can't he complain so?  Yes he can.. Coz it is judgment day.. So fight for justice... So listening to this God forgive him and give him Janna  ... Well well well... Is that what we expect the truthful God?
I don't see any justice either God give the boy Janna or Jahanna... No justice at all...
If God give the boy Janna then the one who killed him should be questioned as to why you killed him... Isn't that fair?

If God gives the boy Jahanna, then what for?

Incomplete life is never possible... Complete life span will decide our destiny.. And God definitely give complete life to every human being...
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 27, 2020, 07:06:44 PM
salam jkhan

we are saying the same thing i think

He is not obligated to do anything but He will do what He told us in Quran because He is the Truth

He chose to do the things He told us in Quran

He chose to decree mercy on Himself and chose to bring us back after our death and chose everything He told told us in Quran

He is not obliged to do anything He told us but He chose to do them and given He never breaks His promises and He is the Truth, we understand He will do what He told us He will

as you mentioned ... can He just destroy everything on earth and the heavens? yes! and not bring anyone back and remain only Him in existmece forever? most definitely He can! and if He wanted He would

will He not deliver on what He told us He would? i understand No because He told us in Quran what He will be doing such as bringing us back so that is what will happen

regarding what you said about the boy killed by moses’ pbuh teacher ... we do not know what age he was nor if he was bad already and by the verse about him the teacher perhaps means “overburden” his parents with grief and diabelief and not just “burden” (meaning the boy was already an issue for his parents) .. or simply that The God knows the boy will never change ... recall when The God told noah pbuh to not debate about his people as they will be drowned and none will believe ! so no matter what there are people who will not believe as perhaps their hearts are soo bad that The God sealed them from believing

believing is a gift from The God and it is Him who permits whomever He wills to believe or not ... so who gets to believe or not depends on The God

we should seriously feel grateful that we were permitted to believe and strive and make excellent use of this gift from The God .. the gift of being believers in The God

:)

peace

Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: jkhan on November 27, 2020, 08:44:39 PM
salam jkhan

we are saying the same thing i think

He is not obligated to do anything but He will do what He told us in Quran because He is the Truth

He chose to do the things He told us in Quran

He chose to decree mercy on Himself and chose to bring us back after our death and chose everything He told told us in Quran

He is not obliged to do anything He told us but He chose to do them and given He never breaks His promises and He is the Truth, we understand He will do what He told us He will

as you mentioned ... can He just destroy everything on earth and the heavens? yes! and not bring anyone back and remain only Him in existmece forever? most definitely He can! and if He wanted He would

will He not deliver on what He told us He would? i understand No because He told us in Quran what He will be doing such as bringing us back so that is what will happen

regarding what you said about the boy killed by moses’ pbuh teacher ... we do not know what age he was nor if he was bad already and by the verse about him the teacher perhaps means “overburden” his parents with grief and diabelief and not just “burden” (meaning the boy was already an issue for his parents) .. or simply that The God knows the boy will never change ... recall when The God told noah pbuh to not debate about his people as they will be drowned and none will believe ! so no matter what there are people who will not believe as perhaps their hearts are soo bad that The God sealed them from believing

believing is a gift from The God and it is Him who permits whomever He wills to believe or not ... so who gets to believe or not depends on The God

we should seriously feel grateful that we were permitted to believe and strive and make excellent use of this gift from The God .. the gift of being believers in The God

:)

peace

10:103 "Then We shall deliver Our Messengers and the believers. Even so, as is Our bounden duty, We shall deliver the believers."


It is not choice.. But shear obligation...
Brother choosing and obligation / duty is entirely different... Choice is option but not obligation...
For example He chosed to give me poverty... It is not his obligation.. ..He may make me rich as well.. Not obligated.. But He does what He will.... Obligation is connected with promise and being truthful to it.. ...it is obligatory..
Title: Re: Life Span
Post by: tutti_frutti on November 27, 2020, 08:51:59 PM
salam jkhab

The God CHOSE to make it an obligation to help His messengers and make them the victors alongside the believers ..

He has NO constraints ... if He did have constraints (The God please forgive me for saying such saying) .. then who set those constraints???

if He set obligations on Himself then He CHOSE to set them (they are not obligations anyways but in a manner of speaking)

The God is never obligated to do anything ! He does as He pleases

His promises are truth so whatever He says is the Truth and we understand He will fulfill His promises

peace