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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Sarah on October 14, 2020, 12:44:43 PM

Title: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: Sarah on October 14, 2020, 12:44:43 PM
 Peace

Why and why not?

According to this capitalist, capitalism is about greedy sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th3KE_H27bs

Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: good logic on October 15, 2020, 08:17:49 AM
Ideas for the current system of "western economy" were brewing long ago.
For example this guy:
In the late 18th century, Malthus warned that the poor would breed at a rate that would outpace the resources necessary to sustain a growing population, resulting in famine and misery. His predictions failed but were still deployed for decades to limit public amelioration of poverty.

And who was Malthus?:
 Thomas Malthus was an English economist and demographer best known for his theory that population growth will always tend to outrun the food supply and
that betterment of humankind is impossible without strict limits on reproduction.

Nonetheless, he suggested that capitalism was the only economic system that could function. The ideas that Thomas Malthus developed came before the industrial revolution and focuses on plants, animals, and grains as the key components of the diet.

No doubt there may be examples of "Capitalism" from way before that.
However ,the proof is in the pudding. It ain t working for sure.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: submit3r on October 28, 2020, 06:32:34 AM
I had this discussion the other day with a few muslims actually. Capitalism isn't any better or worse (per say, there are worse systems) before you add corruption into the equation. Generally, any government eventually is going to need to lower classes to rise up and kick out the tyrants - having a governmental system that doesn't inevitably eventually become corrupt through "old money" is an impossibility.

Aside from zakat, which would be good socialism, there is a book "Dajjal - The Antichrist" that addresses this question, although it is written by a sunni muslim, they tend to keep it mostly on the Quran side, and they don't approve of things like stoning etc so I thought it was a good read. In this book the author basically establishes that a "true" muslim empire would be capitalist-ish.

"Pure" socialism is not fair as it redistributes too much wealth to the lazy and unproductive, whereas modern corrupt capitalism doesn't care if you starve to death (capitalism without corruption and with socialist programs like zakat to support the poor would be ideal imo.)
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: good logic on October 28, 2020, 09:24:33 AM
There is pros and cons with Capitalism, like  there is with every other human system (Socialism...etc).
However this is the problem in the western world with Capitalism:

Inequality. there is clear and unjust inequalities of wealth and income. , one can argue that this inequality provides an incentive for wealth generation and economic growth.But often big corporations find it easy to hire and fire workers for profit and loads of it..They keep the wealth generated  for the "OWNERS".
 
Monopoly. firms -Big corporations- have  gained monopoly power over consumers and workers. They are "enslaving " the majority.

Environmental problems. The society is driven by the profit motive and they are making decisions to maximise economic income in the short term but at a cost of environmental problems in the long-term.

I would argue that no matter what system, we are still in the process of "evolution" and may be we will come up with a better alternative  in the future?
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: Neptin on October 31, 2020, 08:01:57 PM
Peace

Why and why not?

According to this capitalist, capitalism is about greedy sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th3KE_H27bs

The Qur'an is largely silent on this subject. The most you can do is to vet individual policies in isolation and determine if they conflict with Qur'an or not. But a blanket statement that, "Capitalism is compatible with Qur'an" or "Capitalism is incompatible with Qur'an" is not credible.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: OP29 on November 09, 2020, 03:20:46 PM
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Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: OP29 on November 09, 2020, 03:22:02 PM
﴿سورة الأنعام ٣﴾ وَهُوَ اللَّهُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَفِي الْأَرْضِ ۖ يَعْلَمُ سِرَّكُمْ وَجَهْرَكُمْ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تَكْسِبُونَ

[Quran 6:3] And He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth; He knows your secret (thoughts) and your open (words), and He knows what you earn.

www.quranwow.com
BY 15MIN YOUNG OPF
FAIRTRADE121@MICROSOFT.NET
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: sohaibk on November 11, 2020, 03:01:29 AM
The Quran deals with riba, not hoard wealth, and tells you not to complain about those who are more successful than you because they worked harder IIRC. The Quran is undoubtedly based on capitalism. Giving to the poor is a personal thing, it's not something that the Quran forces upon people. Same with anything in the Quran unless the Quran specifically stated so. Like the idea that a woman who cheats should be locked in a room until she finds a way out. Not the best example for the current climate, but it's what comes to mind at the moment.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that taxes are probably not morally right as they are forced.

Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: sohaibk on November 19, 2020, 07:23:39 AM
The Quran deals with riba, not hoard wealth, and tells you not to complain about those who are more successful than you because they worked harder IIRC. The Quran is undoubtedly based on capitalism. Giving to the poor is a personal thing, it's not something that the Quran forces upon people. Same with anything in the Quran unless the Quran specifically stated so. Like the idea that a woman who cheats should be locked in a room until she finds a way out. Not the best example for the current climate, but it's what comes to mind at the moment.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that taxes are probably not morally right as they are forced.

Peace.

I'd like to add the point that "Like the idea that a woman who cheats should be locked in a room until she finds a way out" is much more complex than surface-level. As a fellow person that only follows the Quran, I hope that you are acquainted with that idea and how important it is with all knowledge. This is the same idea with socialists/communists and people who hate capitalism for surface level ideas or not understanding the full system. People praise money. The value is what it buys. Without value, there is nothing If you have ever started a business or tried to create some sort of wealth, you would know how EXTREMELY hard it is. Giving more good than bad is the only way to create a proper business that scales. Do it yourself if you think otherwise. Ignore me or ridicule if you wish, doesn't change that fact.

The main issue, IMO, is riba or compound interest. God states this in the book and you can see why it's so bad. Compound interest is EXPONENTIAL, let me show you a graph:

(https://i.imgur.com/OkuWp2x.png)

This is an exponential function. It starts off slow and it increases the more you go. This is what compound interest does over time. You have a number, say 100,000 and you have a interest rate of 7% on that per month that you have to pay. That's 7,000 per month. This is where it gets terrible: 107,000 with a 7% on top of that again and again for 12 months.

This calculator calculates yearly so just imagine it's one year for this example.

(https://i.imgur.com/lBJsZix.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/A8H0mHA.png)

Full transparency: It's compounded monthly. This means that the interest so far in the year is calculated and in the next month, after the initial month, the interest rate will be applied. So 107,000 the first month and then 114,490 the next until it's paid off.

Here's the catch though: it's a literal tool of enslavement for life if you have too much debt. This is why socialists/communists are mad. They are straddled in debt from the beginning because their parents told them to go to college and get ~$10k (WGU/Online) - 30k/50k (traditonal) - $1 million (medical) dollar loans right after high school for college in the US. These do not include your apartment. There is no education on this. WHY? I have my ideas but they're all without any real merit for now. Absolutely disgusting.

What's more, the medical industry/insurance industry are messing up prices for the common man. Break your leg at a football game? Surprise debt! Want a house? Debt! Want a good credit score to get that house loan? 20%+ interest per year if you don't pay it off at the end of the month! May God bless the people affected.

This also gets into the markets of buying and selling currencies, how currencies are created, and how parts of companies/stocks are traded. This is relevant because whenever the market takes a dip, companies react negatively because they have loans as well! They cut workers so they can maintain a cost that's lower than their maintenance on a loan or else they're bankrupt. BUT GUESS WHAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE DID THIS TIME AROUND??? They bailed companies out like they always do because of their fiat currency. Backed by nothing but air, hollywood/image of america in the world, and oppression/abusing the middle east. There's more reasons but those are the main points.

We lost the gold standard around 1971 and we experimented with fiat currency AKA the federal reserve and the inter-bank market; an international bank market for currencies. The gold standard was when paper currency can be exchanged for gold at a bank. Something that could be traded across the world and you couldn't be oppressed by the gov't by an account freeze. People might argue against it and say: What about black friday? A day when the stock market crashed hard. The way that we came back was not because we switched to fiat, we came back because we put more gold into our reserves and upped the value of the dollar.

This is relevant because now our currency is free-floating and behaves like the stock market. Imagine, forex and all these banks just die in value. Your currency dies. Good luck because no one is helping unless you switch to their currency. What are you gonna do? Buy gold before it dies? NOPE! The government http://www.goldtelegraph.com/the-u.s-government-can-still-confiscate-gold (http://www.goldtelegraph.com/the-u.s-government-can-still-confiscate-gold) will take it away in times of need. The point is that this whole situation won't last long.

ONE LAST POINT:
Most of your retirement fund, if you're in the US, is tied up in the stock market. This is why billionaires are billionaires. The numbers you see on Jeff/Bill's accounts are because of the stakes that they have in various companies. If they were to sell it all, it wouldn't be that high. In fact, it's morally right to keep all that currency in this case because if they were to sell it off, retirement accounts would take a hit. The government supports all of this through policy. IRAs (US stock retirement accounts) are tax-free if you keep it for long enough. Billionaires are your saviors when if comes to this system. The problem is when a company fails, it gets bailed out by the government and no one replaces the service with something better. As we've seen with this previous crash.


I can go on for longer and make it more organized but I'd rather not because I'm not too invested into this since not many will see it. I want to have a better format/platform to express my ideas eventually. If anything, please do your research. Everything you need is online on this topic. Feel free to add anything or share.

Also, I meant to say not to hoard wealth.

Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: good logic on November 19, 2020, 09:26:26 AM

By overriding reason, compassion, and love, greed loosens family and community ties and undermines the bonds and values upon which society is built.
Greed may drive the economy, but as recent history has made all too clear, unfettered greed can also precipitate a deep and long-lasting economic recession.

Another theory of greed is that it is programmed into our genes/human nature, because, in the course of evolution, it has tended to promote survival. Without greed, a person, community, or society may lack the motivation to build or achieve, move or change—and may also be rendered more vulnerable to the greed of others.

Greed is the disordered desire for more than is decent or deserved, not for the greater good but for one’s own selfish interest, and at the detriment of others and society at large. Greed can be for anything, but is most commonly for food, money, possessions, power, fame, status, attention, admiration, and sex. With money at the top of the list.

CAPITALISM RELIES ON GREED AND SELFISHNESS.
 Everybody knows this,but the alternatives are no better.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: amin on November 19, 2020, 09:39:44 PM
Islam doesnt advocate a life completely denouncing worldly desire, but it wants us not to cross the limit of desire towards greed, the concept of Masjid al haram is understood rightly definitely helps us, its not simply ritual praying towards a direction, the timely salat helps us focus on the inner purification of one'self by limiting us from the worldly excesses.

Every Govt has the limiting mechanisms/policies, to distribute the wealth for the common good of the society, taxes are one of the means,only the levels vary. But whatever limiting things, nature has the best forces, it doesnt give everything to one, it distributes and distributes it well, The Indians calls those as deiva's, even in Islam that called the Malaikah and one will finally accept this or made to accept this and that is life.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: sohaibk on November 20, 2020, 06:14:56 AM
I'd like to say something more about my previous statements, who am I to answer your question like I'm God? I truly believe that everyone's interpretation of the Quran is different. Only God knows the truth. In fact, I think that asking questions about your own faith to others is not really helpful to your spiritual growth.

Then again, who am I to say even that.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: good logic on November 20, 2020, 06:56:59 AM
Peace  sohaibk
 You say, quote:
" I truly believe that everyone's interpretation of the Quran is different. Only God knows the truth. "

I find that a lot of verses  only have basic and simple /straightforward meaning  so that there are no excuses for people to complicate things .
For example surah 1
:بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحمٰنِ الرَّحيمِ
لحَمدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ العٰلَمينَ
...etc
No ambiguity/difference in all the translations /interpretations I came across including mine apart from odd words that make no difference to the overall meaning of the surah
However I would not be surprised that one can find one or a maximum of two  that are totally different,like Adid Safar ?
Or you may have  lots of other translations/interpretation of surah one  that differs completely from all the rest? I am curious to know if you have some?
However I would say this:
Some people s translations/interpretation of certain verses of Qoran are different  Sometimes completely different in context and meaning.
But  I get what you say otherwise.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: sohaibk on November 27, 2020, 06:48:55 PM
Peace  sohaibk
 You say, quote:
" I truly believe that everyone's interpretation of the Quran is different. Only God knows the truth. "

I find that a lot of verses  only have basic and simple /straightforward meaning  so that there are no excuses for people to complicate things .
For example surah 1
:بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحمٰنِ الرَّحيمِ
لحَمدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ العٰلَمينَ
...etc
No ambiguity/difference in all the translations /interpretations I came across including mine apart from odd words that make no difference to the overall meaning of the surah
However I would not be surprised that one can find one or a maximum of two  that are totally different,like Adid Safar ?
Or you may have  lots of other translations/interpretation of surah one  that differs completely from all the rest? I am curious to know if you have some?
However I would say this:
Some people s translations/interpretation of certain verses of Qoran are different  Sometimes completely different in context and meaning.
But  I get what you say otherwise.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam, I remember reading something along the lines of "...disbelievers ask what does Allah mean by this..." though, I'd rather not argue the point since we are also not allowed to argue what is and what is not within the Quran. I also cannot say what is and what isn't true within the Quran for fear of spreading false information and gaining Allah's punishment. I try not to be arrogant. In the end, God knows all.

Peace.
Title: Re: Is Capitalism compatible with Quran alone Islam
Post by: good logic on November 28, 2020, 05:04:33 AM
Peace sohaibk .
Thank you for your reply and honesty.
While I agree that we should not "tell lies" about GOD deliberately, there is nothing arrogant about giving our view .
I also agree that arguing altogether can be pointless.

GOD bless you.
Peace.