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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: ayman on July 20, 2020, 10:37:23 PM

Title: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 20, 2020, 10:37:23 PM
Peace everyone,

Just a quick post with some brief thoughts. I believe that it is impossible to understand our purpose in life and the after life without understanding the meaning of "jinn".

The human fantasy (jinn) is the only source of falsehood in the universe. For example, other creatures and the entire universe don’t care about our fantasized black cube or black stones. If the entire human race goes extinct tomorrow, the universe will remain true and there will be no kissing or fondling of “holy” stones. This truth that permeates the universe and holds it together is independent of humans and for all intents and purposes it is the god (This proves the existence of the god without any doubt).

31:30 This is because the god is the truth and what they call upon other than him is the falsehood and the god is the one who is the high and the grand.

Since the god is literally the truth, controlling our fantasy (the only source of falsehood in the universe) by having it submit to our true “self” naturally serves the truth.

2:30. And when the god said to the controllers: “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said: “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said: “I know what you don’t know.”

Humans serve the god by fulfilling their duty as good stewards of this blessed earth. The human imagination, when it is controlled with the truth and submits to us (as it was originally supposed to do), drives all of our progress and inventions that enable us to lead this earth.

Uncontrolled fantasies are the fuel of hell. Literally hell is the worst thing a person can imagine.

72:15. And as for the deviators, they are the firewood of hell.

111:4 And his mate is a relentless bearer of firewood.

Allegorically, fantasies are produced by humans like a pregnant woman who relentlessly produces offspring. Except in this case her offspring is like firewood constantly fueling her own hell. There is no life in hell since there is no water, the ingredient for life.

7:50. And the companions of hell call the companions of heaven: “spare some water for us or some of what the god provided you.” They reply: “The god forbade them on the unappreciative.”

Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death (87:13). It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare. On the other hand, the good fantasies are allegorically given water (the ingredient of life).

72:16 And had they (the fantasies) been straight on the way, they would have been given plenty of water to drink.

It is important to purify the imagination and control it. In the new phase of creation after death the good controlled fantasies would be given water as the allegorical ingredient of life and will become new life forms. On the other hand, those who are linked to bad uncontrolled fantasies will stay stuck in the hell of the bad fantasy world and they will have no place in this new phase of creation. For example, imaginary stone cubes and black stones deities that have powers to wipe sins and return a person sinless like a baby have no business as new life forms in the afterlife. Therefore, those uncontrolled fantasies (devils) and those who are tied to them cannot be part of the true afterlife and will remain stuck in the bad fantasy state (hell).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 21, 2020, 01:00:49 AM
Peace,

From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.

72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"
72:2
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."
72:3
"And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son."
72:4
"And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God."
72:5
"And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."
72:6
"And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin / rahaqan /fatigue, exhaustion."

6:112
And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet-human and Jinn devils-to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

6:128
And the Day We gather them all: "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said: "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said: "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

6:130
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and narrate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

7:38
He said: "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from mankind and Jinn to the Fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first: "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!" He replied: "Each will receive double, but you do not know."

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

18:50
And We said to the angels: "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

27:17
And the soldiers of Solomon were gathered, comprising of mankind and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.

27:39
A powerful being from among the Jinn said: "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."

34:12
And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him with the permission of his Lord; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.

41:25
And We assigned to them associates who adorned their present and past actions-and the sentence was deserved by them-as it was for the nations before them of Jinn and mankind; they were losers.

41:29
And those who have rejected will say: "Our Lord, show us those who have misled us from among the Jinn and mankind so we can trample them under our feet, so that they would be the lowest."

46:18
These are the ones against whom the sentence has been deserved in nations who had come before them of mankind and Jinn; they are the losers.

46:29
And We dispatched to you a company of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Qur'an. So when they arrived there, they said: "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.

55:33
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.

Peace


Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Cerberus on July 21, 2020, 04:02:36 AM
These seem to be conclusions from self-reflection, which is good, but there is more to it imo, so allow me to contribute with my two cents.

An example of falsehood that is not necessarily "human fantasy" is impressions (e.g a woman seeing her husband talking to another woman and becomes jealous) Not that impressions are always wrong, but they are likely to be wrong because they are not founded on something that make them true. This is the real question: What is the source of truth. And of course if truth has a source then it must be unique or in a sense coherent with any other source of truth, because as Ibn Rushd said, truth cannot negate truth.

Now truth, how do you know that what you think is true is really true ? People have to have a tool by which they can measure truth. Otherwise, in the absence of such tool, people are left with things that make them feel comfortable. In other words, in the absence of such tool, people will inevitably choose what brings them pleasure, self-fulfillement, comfort...something that serves them selfishly, this is the is the root of "evil", imo.

Do we even have such tool ? is it internal or external ? Are we born with it, do we acquire it ?

I think we have it, it is what makes humans above animals, our ability to reason, to think logically, to reflect on oneself etc, it is something that is tied to our mind. Now do we have access to it ? Not that granted, one has to learn to use it, or in a sense "follow it", and the more you do the more it clears out for you as if it was foggy in the first place. Or like Rumi says: "Sit, be still, and listen. You are drunk and we are at the edge of the roof!".

If such thing is really is the tool by which truth is determined, then in fact, science is a good example of it. If scientists are able to uncover the inner workings of the different things in our universe using that very tool, and the possibility that our universe was created by a a God Being, and such inner workings were meticulously designed by God, doesn't that sort of make that tool something shared between us and God  ? Or at the very least, it allows us to understand the hows and whys of God's creation ? Isn't that something ?

What happens when we continuously apply that tool on our own self and life ? We gain self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom. But it is not as easy as applying it on external things the way scientists do. Because we are constantly inclined to go for what brings us self-fulfillement, that selfish nature of the human body. It is as if, scientists were continuously offered large sums of money to back certain theories. Will there be any truth ?
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: good logic on July 21, 2020, 11:01:20 AM
Interesting topic.
Here is a problem, also according to Science, quote:

"Psychologists have shown that people have a very, very strong, robust confirmation bias.
What this means is that when they have an idea, and they start to reason about that idea, they are going to mostly find arguments for their own idea. They're going to come up with reasons why they're right, they're going to come up with justifications for their decisions. They're not going to challenge themselves.

And the problem with the confirmation bias is that it leads people to make very bad decisions and to arrive at crazy beliefs. And it's weird, when you think of it, that humans should be endowed with a confirmation bias. If the goal of reasoning were to help us arrive at better beliefs and make better decisions, then there should be no bias. The confirmation bias should really not exist at all.

But if you take the point of view of the argumentative theory, having a confirmation bias makes complete sense. When you're trying to convince someone, you don't want to find arguments for the other side, you want to find arguments for your side. And that's what the confirmation bias helps you do.

The idea here is that the confirmation bias is not a flaw of reasoning, it's actually a feature. It is something that is built into reasoning; not because reasoning is flawed or because people are stupid, but because actually people are very good at reasoning — but they're very good at reasoning for arguing.
Not only does the argumentative theory explain the bias, it can also give us ideas about how to escape the bad consequences of the confirmation bias."

 We like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, blessed with this Promethean gift of being able to decipher the world and uncover all sorts of hidden truths.

Or do we sometimes convince ourselves  "falsehoods" as "truths"
Yes, human nature is weird.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 21, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
Everything that the human being creates and realizes comes from his imagination.

Depending on his family, social, cultural conditioning, his generational heritage, he is constantly bombarded with thoughts.

When he is identified with a thought / emotion, he becomes this thought / emotion, he acts as a consequence of this thought / emotion which deprives him of all freedom of action.

The good news is, we are not those thoughts, we can be freed from them by being aware of the thoughts in our fields of consciousness, our inner space.

We can neither purify them, nor control them, they only pass through our fields of consciousness like clouds in the sky. Believing that we can fight or stop a thought / emotion, we only exacerbate it.

The best way to purify ourself of thoughts / emotions is to observe them without any personal desire to modify them,
the interior struggle ceases, the miracle of letting go takes place, God relaxes our chests. Life flows smoothly in peace, joy and love.

We live in hell when we live in struggle, we say no to life events, we believe in the illusion of thoughts and our inner separation from the outside world. When this inner separation ceases, we become vast inside and no thought / emotion can pollute our inner peace.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 21, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.

Peace Houriya/Marie, it is nice to discuss with you the great reading again. The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire. The fantasy uses the human as a vehicle to walk to listen and to produce beautiful art (such as statues for Solomon) and when the human makes it submit with the truth in the law of aerodynamics it can produce flying machines      (such as a flying machine that enables rapid travel to transport the queen's throne to Solomon).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 21, 2020, 02:23:26 PM
An example of falsehood that is not necessarily "human fantasy" is impressions (e.g a woman seeing her husband talking to another woman and becomes jealous) Not that impressions are always wrong, but they are likely to be wrong because they are not founded on something that make them true.

Peace Cerberus, impression is based on the imagination. Although the human imagination is the source of all falsehood in the universe, this doesn't mean that truth cannot come from controlled imagination. Take your example of "impression". I talk to someone on the phone and I get the impression that they are a young 18 year old boy. When I meet them, they are actually a 60 years old man. What gave me the impression is my imagination. As I control my imagination with the truth from meeting them, I change my impression and so on. If I am really in strong control of my imagination, then I wouldn't even form an impression about their age until I meet them and ask them what their age is :) 

Quote
This is the real question: What is the source of truth. And of course if truth has a source then it must be unique or in a sense coherent with any other source of truth, because as Ibn Rushd said, truth cannot negate truth.

Humans are not the source of the truth. The truth is out there whether humans find it or not. We are merely trying to get closer to the truth. Whether you have an impression about someone's age or not, you can only get closer to the date of birth but not down to the exact millisecond. You cannot control the time dimension that makes him age or the rate of regeneration of cells in his body to make him look younger or older. The god is the truth and is the source of all truth.

Quote
Now truth, how do you know that what you think is true is really true ? People have to have a tool by which they can measure truth. Otherwise, in the absence of such tool, people are left with things that make them feel comfortable. In other words, in the absence of such tool, people will inevitably choose what brings them pleasure, self-fulfillement, comfort...something that serves them selfishly, this is the is the root of "evil", imo.

In the traditional judeo-christian human-centric view of the world the human is at the center of the universe and thus his measurement of the truth is what defines truth. In the great reading world view truth is independent of humans and truth is not determined by our measurement. Our measurement is merely an attempt to get closer to the truth that is already out there no matter what we choose. 

Quote
Do we even have such tool ? is it internal or external ? Are we born with it, do we acquire it ?

We do have a tool to help us serve the truth. The tool is our true self, which is part of the universal truth. When your imagination submits to your "true you" as it was supposed to do from the start then you can get closer to the truth and serve it (get closer to the god and serve him, since the god is for all intents and purposes the truth).
 
Quote
I think we have it, it is what makes humans above animals, our ability to reason, to think logically, to reflect on oneself etc, it is something that is tied to our mind. Now do we have access to it ? Not that granted, one has to learn to use it, or in a sense "follow it", and the more you do the more it clears out for you as if it was foggy in the first place. Or like Rumi says: "Sit, be still, and listen. You are drunk and we are at the edge of the roof!".

Indeed, knowing the "true you" (your real self) that is part of the truth in the universe and having your imagination submit to it (as it was supposed to from the start) is what clears the fog. The true self is what remains after we die since truth is independent of humans.

Quote
If such thing is really is the tool by which truth is determined, then in fact, science is a good example of it. If scientists are able to uncover the inner workings of the different things in our universe using that very tool, and the possibility that our universe was created by a a God Being, and such inner workings were meticulously designed by God, doesn't that sort of make that tool something shared between us and God  ? Or at the very least, it allows us to understand the hows and whys of God's creation ? Isn't that something ?

Yes. Scientists use those tools to get closer to the truth in the universe. Scientists don't create truth. The god is not some being in white robes sitting on a cloud. The god is the truth and the universe is created with the truth. It is not a possibility. It is a certainty.

Quote
What happens when we continuously apply that tool on our own self and life ? We gain self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom. But it is not as easy as applying it on external things the way scientists do. Because we are constantly inclined to go for what brings us self-fulfillement, that selfish nature of the human body. It is as if, scientists were continuously offered large sums of money to back certain theories. Will there be any truth ?

Indeed controlling our imagination and making it submit to our real self is simple but can be hard because we often forget ourselves and we let the imagination take over. 

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 21, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
Everything that the human being creates and realizes comes from his imagination.

Indeed the imagination (the jinn) plays an important role in everything the human creates. It can make us create idols and black cubes when it controls us or we can make it submit to us with the truth and invent technology to help us lead the earth.

Quote
Depending on his family, social, cultural conditioning, his generational heritage, he is constantly bombarded with thoughts.
When he is identified with a thought / emotion, he becomes this thought / emotion, he acts as a consequence of this thought / emotion which deprives him of all freedom of action.
The good news is, we are not those thoughts, we can be freed from them by being aware of the thoughts in our fields of consciousness, our inner space.
We can neither purify them, nor control them, they only pass through our fields of consciousness like clouds in the sky. Believing that we can fight or stop a thought / emotion, we only exacerbate it.
The best way to purify ourself of thoughts / emotions is to observe them without any personal desire to modify them,
the interior struggle ceases, the miracle of letting go takes place, God relaxes our chests. Life flows smoothly in peace, joy and love.
We live in hell when we live in struggle, we say no to life events, we believe in the illusion of thoughts and our inner separation from the outside world. When this inner separation ceases, we become vast inside and no thought / emotion can pollute our inner peace.

Indeed our true self by being "true" is inherently part of the truth in the universe (the outside world).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: good logic on July 21, 2020, 03:09:06 PM
Basically we are social animals. We do not live our own lives, we live our “expected/dictated/pressurized” life by society.
We conform to the majority or are made to conform to the majority.
Those trying to live their own lives are very few people in this world of “expectations”. This is what most people see as reality, conforming to the systems of men.

Or one can ask what is our own life? This may lead to what brother Cerberus was talking about in his post. They reflect on themselves or should reflect.

But the magnet of society is too strong and keeps pulling us towards conformity.

So, the truth becomes irrelevant to the majority.
.Living our lives then will be dependent on the created, and we cut ourselves from the Creator. We take on other gods as a god and ignore The GOD.
Therefore we live our life the wrong way around ,the illusion becomes our reality and the reality becomes an illusion to us.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 21, 2020, 11:06:15 PM
The human being is endowed with a brain to reason, a hidden imaginary, I do not consider it as a second entity nested with the human being. There are a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts.

The Jinn can lead humans astray, yet sayateen are among us and among the jinn. What comes from the human or the jinn, God only knows (desires, passion ..).

When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us. The little inner voice is within us, depends on our experience, our heritage, on the known.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Jafar on July 22, 2020, 01:11:58 AM
When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us.
If what you meant was if we identify all thoughts appearing inside the mind all as our own thoughts, then I concur with you.

When one is attached to the thoughts of fear, hate, aggressiveness, pride, sadness appearing inside his/her own mind then such thoughts will be manifested as one's reality.

You are what you are inside of you.
Nobody put you to 'hell', let alone God, it's you who put yourselves to your own 'hell'.

More in depth on this matter:
Heaven And Hell
https://youtu.be/fFrn7BgSkUM

Yet such experience can be seen also as a 'catalyst'.
Experiencing fear will make one to desire, learn and recognize trust, courage and peace/calmness.
And once there's a desire, the path will be laid out to make a journey towards it.

Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Wanderer on July 22, 2020, 07:02:45 AM
Salam everyone

I find your thoughts very interesting, Ayman. However, Jinn were created before humans according to the Qur'an. How could our imaginations be created before us? Would we not logically have preceded our own imagination?

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 22, 2020, 07:51:24 AM
If what you meant was if we identify all thoughts appearing inside the mind all as our own thoughts, then I concur with you.

When one is attached to the thoughts of fear, hate, aggressiveness, pride, sadness appearing inside his/her own mind then such thoughts will be manifested as one's reality.

You are what you are inside of you.
Nobody put you to 'hell', let alone God, it's you who put yourselves to your own 'hell'.

we identify / merge with thoughts as we identify / merge with our identity: name, family situation, professional ...

Emotion is the body's reaction to thought

I'm talking about the hell you create when you're a prisoner of thoughts, you struggle internally.

We must not stray too far from Ayman's thread
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Cerberus on July 22, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
Peace Cerberus, impression is based on the imagination. Although the human imagination is the source of all falsehood in the universe, this doesn't mean that truth cannot come from controlled imagination. Take your example of "impression". I talk to someone on the phone and I get the impression that they are a young 18 year old boy. When I meet them, they are actually a 60 years old man. What gave me the impression is my imagination. As I control my imagination with the truth from meeting them, I change my impression and so on. If I am really in strong control of my imagination, then I wouldn't even form an impression about their age until I meet them and ask them what their age is :) 
Yes impression is based on imagination. Imagination simply being the human ability to form mental images. It's a pretty vague thing. I brought impression specifically as a counter-example to your initial claim that "fantasy" is the "only" source of falsehood.
Imagination is an ability.
What you consider "controlling imagination" is simply reasoning logically about what you imagine, and not just anything you "imagine", specifically the things that you imagine while being unaware,that is, false perceptions and impressions...You simply are applying reason to what you think. Which you should. Just like you would to the things you are looking at, listening to, talking about ..etc.

Generally one should reason about what they have in mind, and about their motives. Good logic brought the "problem"  of reason being used as an argumentation tool rather than a tool to find truth. Which is true, just like if you had a group of criminals "reasoning" about HOW to weasle their way into a bank to steal the money. But what about reasoning about the WHY ? that's where you find that they have their reasons for wanting to steal the bank but it's all just nonsense that is selfishly motivated.

Reason applied to ourselves brings self-knowledge, understanding of ourselves and wisdom, and allows us to rectify our thoughts and behavior.

I dont find it intuitive to keep trying to pinpoint things as being "the only source of falsehood" or what not. I understand you're trying to find something which you can project back unto to quran in place of "Jinn", but I find it more intuitive to focus on the source of truth. (source as in what brings to truth)

Humans are not the source of the truth. The truth is out there whether humans find it or not. We are merely trying to get closer to the truth. Whether you have an impression about someone's age or not, you can only get closer to the date of birth but not down to the exact millisecond. You cannot control the time dimension that makes him age or the rate of regeneration of cells in his body to make him look younger or older. The god is the truth and is the source of all truth.
I agree, I've not claimed that humans create truth or something ??? What is the source of truth in humans doesn't necessarily mean what generates truth, but what leads to it. What brings people to the truth, or closer to it. If you were to think that you had two sources of truth for example, they ought to be coherent. As truth cannot contradict truth. I briefly brought Ibn Rushd because he was a muslim who believed that the Quran is a source of truth, but also believed that reason is a source of truth. However, unlike most muslims (or religious people in general), he had the courage to say that if an interpretation of the quran were to come in conflict with the findings of reason, then the quran ought to be reinterpreted so as to meet the findings of reason, stating that truth cannot negate truth. (which is also what you're trying to do with your struggle to pinpoint something as the ultimate source of falsehood that meets the "reinterpreted" descripton of Jinn, which is fine, good luck to you)

In the traditional judeo-christian human-centric view of the world the human is at the center of the universe and thus his measurement of the truth is what defines truth. In the great reading world view truth is independent of humans and truth is not determined by our measurement. Our measurement is merely an attempt to get closer to the truth that is already out there no matter what we choose. 
The individual is at the center of his own life. This is what matters. What judeo christian or whatever worldview is irrelevant. If the individual decides to seek the truth how does he do it ? The individual must be able to seek the truth and find it. (or get closer to it or whatever you prefer, it's not like the truth is a single point that the individual can sit on). I agree that our attempt to measure truth is for the sake of getting closer to the truth. The idea that a measurement instrument for something defines that thing is a crazy idea.


Yes. Scientists use those tools to get closer to the truth in the universe. Scientists don't create truth. The god is not some being in white robes sitting on a cloud. The god is the truth and the universe is created with the truth. It is not a possibility. It is a certainty.
I agree


Indeed controlling our imagination and making it submit to our real self is simple but can be hard because we often forget ourselves and we let the imagination take over. 
Initially, it's very much needed to try to understand oneself first, using the tool that we've been gifted with.
I used to think controlling oneself was necessary but as times went by I learned, though I'm still experiencing and reflecting on it, that the goal is not to control oneself but rather to change oneself. From this unreasonable, selfish impulsive individual to a reasonable selfless, thoughtful, intelligent individual. This I think is the purpose of life. A sort of metamorphosis.
I dont think that there needs to be a constant issue in our existence that must be resolved by means of a constant control. But perhaps the issue or conflict could be replaced by harmony by means of change. And the direction of this change is determined by reason.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Jafar on July 23, 2020, 10:01:41 PM
we identify / merge with thoughts as we identify / merge with our identity: name, family situation, professional ...

There are many things that we identify our-SELF with.
Another good and easy to digest example might be with the avatar(s) on this forum.

I deliberately put plural on the noun, because we can also identify our-SELF with many identities.

Quote
Emotion is the body's reaction to thought

According to Carl Jung emotion has 'deeper' source than merely our physical body.
Emotion was generated or the product of the 'unconscious mind' and I tend to agree with him.

Quote
I'm talking about the hell you create when you're a prisoner of thoughts, you struggle internally.

(https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/4786666-C-G-Jung-Quote-If-our-religion-is-based-on-salvation-our-chief.jpg)

Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 25, 2020, 01:14:46 PM
The human being is endowed with a brain to reason, a hidden imaginary, I do not consider it as a second entity nested with the human being. There are a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts.

The Jinn can lead humans astray, yet sayateen are among us and among the jinn. What comes from the human or the jinn, God only knows (desires, passion ..).

When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us. The little inner voice is within us, depends on our experience, our heritage, on the known.

Peace Houriya,

24:24 On the day their tongues, hands, and legs testify to what they used to do.

Are those second entities nested with the human being with their own ability to testify? Yes. We control them as best as we can but sometimes we can't control them.

Imagination gives humans the ability to invent technology and beauty (when controlled) as well as lie and deceive (when out of control). Please translate "jinn". Are they ghosts? Are they some red humanoids with horns and holding a fork? We all know what drives us to lie and do wrong. It is our imagination and not a ghost or a red humanoid with a tail or a serpent or a reptilian or whatever other imaginary nonsense. As you said, there can be a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts... what allows them to be such is an uncontrolled imagination that makes us imagine that they are important and necessary... when the imagination runs wild they control us. Instead, we should make the imagination submit to our real self.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 25, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
I find your thoughts very interesting, Ayman. However, Jinn were created before humans according to the Qur'an. How could our imaginations be created before us? Would we not logically have preceded our own imagination?

Thank you Wanderer for your question. Imagination as a concept as a creative energy was created before humans. Can't you see the beauty in the universe that was created before humans? Just like the atoms in our body, the iron in our blood, the concept of living cells that form every organ were all created before humans. Those building blocks were created before humans.

Peace,

Ayman 
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 25, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
Yes impression is based on imagination. Imagination simply being the human ability to form mental images. It's a pretty vague thing. I brought impression specifically as a counter-example to your initial claim that "fantasy" is the "only" source of falsehood.
Imagination is an ability.
What you consider "controlling imagination" is simply reasoning logically about what you imagine, and not just anything you "imagine", specifically the things that you imagine while being unaware, that is, false perceptions and impressions...You simply are applying reason to what you think. Which you should. Just like you would to the things you are looking at, listening to, talking about ..etc.

Generally one should reason about what they have in mind, and about their motives. Good logic brought the "problem"  of reason being used as an argumentation tool rather than a tool to find truth. Which is true, just like if you had a group of criminals "reasoning" about HOW to weasle their way into a bank to steal the money. But what about reasoning about the WHY ? that's where you find that they have their reasons for wanting to steal the bank but it's all just nonsense that is selfishly motivated.

Controlling imagination is both about what you explicitly imagine (how to steal money) and what you casually imagine while unaware (first impression). A thief can imagine a very good plan to steal a bank and then the plan can work and he gets away with the heist. However, this has no bearing on the fact that as far as the universe is concerned this stealing is evil falsehood. At the end, the thief, even if he lives to be a hundred years old, will die and the evil theft that he did will remain as falsehood.

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Reason applied to ourselves brings self-knowledge, understanding of ourselves and wisdom, and allows us to rectify our thoughts and behavior.

Yes. Reason that is aligned with the truth in the universe is what brings self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom and allows us to control our thoughts and behavior. On the other hand, an uncontrolled imagination does the exact opposite.

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I dont find it intuitive to keep trying to pinpoint things as being "the only source of falsehood" or what not. I understand you're trying to find something which you can project back unto to quran in place of "Jinn", but I find it more intuitive to focus on the source of truth. (source as in what brings to truth)

But human imagination is indeed the only source of falsehood in the universe. There is no other source. By understanding this and having our imagination submit to us as it was supposed to do initially, we can focus better on the truth and serve it.

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I agree, I've not claimed that humans create truth or something ??? What is the source of truth in humans doesn't necessarily mean what generates truth, but what leads to it. What brings people to the truth, or closer to it. If you were to think that you had two sources of truth for example, they ought to be coherent. As truth cannot contradict truth.

The paths to the truths will naturally be different since some people are closer to the truth than others. Also, the signs that lead us to the truth will be different from one person to another. It is still one source of truth and each of us having to follow his own straight path to get closer to the source, doesn't mean multiple sources.

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I briefly brought Ibn Rushd because he was a muslim who believed that the Quran is a source of truth, but also believed that reason is a source of truth. However, unlike most muslims (or religious people in general), he had the courage to say that if an interpretation of the quran were to come in conflict with the findings of reason, then the quran ought to be reinterpreted so as to meet the findings of reason, stating that truth cannot negate truth. (which is also what you're trying to do with your struggle to pinpoint something as the ultimate source of falsehood that meets the "reinterpreted" descripton of Jinn, which is fine, good luck to you)

It is true that just like we can only get closer to the truth, we can only strife to improve our interpretation of the Quran. Since it is OUR interpretation then it is not truth but is an attempt to get closer to the truth. Certainly, the interpretation of "jinn" as human "fantasy" is closer to the truth than ghosts or some red guy holding a fork or a reptilian. I am open to a better interpretation. 

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The individual is at the center of his own life. This is what matters. What judeo christian or whatever worldview is irrelevant. If the individual decides to seek the truth how does he do it ? The individual must be able to seek the truth and find it. (or get closer to it or whatever you prefer, it's not like the truth is a single point that the individual can sit on).

It depends on which part of the individual you are talking about. If there are two parts, the human fantasy and the true self, then the true self by definition is part of the universal truth (as per above truth has one source, the god). So by focusing on your true self and making it control your fantasy, you serve the universal truth and its source (which for all intents and purposes is the god).   

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I agree that our attempt to measure truth is for the sake of getting closer to the truth. The idea that a measurement instrument for something defines that thing is a crazy idea.

Agreed.

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Initially, it's very much needed to try to understand oneself first, using the tool that we've been gifted with.
I used to think controlling oneself was necessary but as times went by I learned, though I'm still experiencing and reflecting on it, that the goal is not to control oneself but rather to change oneself. From this unreasonable, selfish impulsive individual to a reasonable selfless, thoughtful, intelligent individual. This I think is the purpose of life. A sort of metamorphosis.
I dont think that there needs to be a constant issue in our existence that must be resolved by means of a constant control. But perhaps the issue or conflict could be replaced by harmony by means of change. And the direction of this change is determined by reason.

I agree, understanding the true you (which is by definition part of the universal truth) is needed. The true you is already created, we don't create truth. We simply purify our true self by controlling our fantasy (the only source of falsehood in the universe). So I agree we are changing by purifying ourselves from falsehood.

91:9. Indeed he who has purified it has succeeded.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on July 25, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
salam ayman

i understand you are sayin the jin are human imagination?

i must disgree with you. i u derstand they are clearly a separate creation (please verify all thr info i write below should i be mistaken)

The God tells is that He told iblis to prostrate to adam but iblis refused and then became of the jinn (from my understanding iblis was an angel before)

The God tells us not to take iblis and his descendants as allies

the ninn worked for solomon pbuh (we are told they dived for him too... i dont see imagination diving)

in surah 72 we are told about a group of jinn that heard the Quran and about what they said and we are also told that when jinn try to steal a hearing from the heavens (high council?) they are followed by projectiles

The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as masters and the angels reply no humans took jinn as allies

The God tells us that the devil and his tribe see us from where we do not see them

humans and jinn were created to worship The God

etc etc

jinn are most definately separate creatures
 
i believe jinn might be angels who disbelieved and fell but there are counter arguments to that example surah 72 mentions that the men from humans took the men from the jinn meaning perhaps there are female jinns? (i understand angels are all “male”)

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 25, 2020, 05:20:38 PM
i understand you are sayin the jin are human imagination?
i must disgree with you. i u derstand they are clearly a separate creation (please verify all thr info i write below should i be mistaken)

It is really hard to define any "creation" as being totally separate. Are the iron atoms in our blood a separate creation? Are our hands that could testify against us on the day of account separate? Yes and No. 

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The God tells is that He told iblis to prostrate to adam but iblis refused and then became of the jinn (from my understanding iblis was an angel before)

There is no such things in the great reading as a specie called angels. The term MLK ملك means owner/controller. It is not a specie but is a status that is given by the god and taken away by the god (see 3:26). Iblis was the original imagination that didn't submit to us as commanded by the god and therefore was stripped of his status as a controller.

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The God tells us not to take iblis and his descendants as allies


Yes. We should not take the human imagination (the source of all falsehood in the universe) and its descendants as allies other than the god (the source of all truth in the universe).

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the ninn worked for solomon pbuh (we are told they dived for him too... i dont see imagination diving)

Indeed all of our technology, including submarines are a product of the human imagination when it submits with the truth in the laws of fluid dynamics.

Not only that but the imagination produced beautiful art and statues for Solomon. It is the human creative energy.   

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in surah 72 we are told about a group of jinn that heard the Quran and about what they said and we are also told that when jinn try to steal a hearing from the heavens (high council?) they are followed by projectiles

Yes. The allegorical متشابهات passages of the great reading exclusively address the human imagination. As far as trying to penetrate the heavens and the earth and predicting the future, we try to do it using technology, which is a product of our imagination. I am not sure about the exact interpretation of the projectiles but it seems allegorical.

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The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as masters and the angels reply no humans took jinn as allies

Yes. People who serve a black stone and a black cube in so-called Mecca believe that those idols control the wiping of their sins and can return them sinless like babies. Of course these are not real controllers but are a product of the imagination (jinn). Humans take those imaginary idols as allies.

Also, please notice that we are told in 34:41 that most of those going to hell have faith in the imagination (jinn). Obviously we should not have faith in the imagination because it is not real.
 
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The God tells us that the devil and his tribe see us from where we do not see them

Yes. The imagination cannot be seen. You can't see my imagination and I can't see yours. We can't even see our own imagination in our head. However, the imaginaiton is not part of the hidden الغيب since we should have faith in the hidden side but as per 34:41 most of those going to hell have faith in the imagination (not the hidden side).

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humans and jinn were created to worship The God

No such thing as worship in the great reading. We serve the god. We serve the god by fulfilling our role as good leaders خلفاء of this blessed earth. We accomplish this role by controlling our imagination جن and making it submit يسجد to us with the truth as it was supposed to do from the beginning. For example, when we imagine that we can fly and then we control our imagination and make it submit to us with the truth of the laws of aerodynamics we invent flying machines that can help us fly and help Solomon quickly transport the throne of the queen of Sheba across a great distance.

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etc etc
jinn are most definately separate creatures
i believe jinn might be angels who disbelieved and fell but there are counter arguments to that example surah 72 mentions that the men from humans took the men from the jinn meaning perhaps there are female jinns? (i understand angels are all “male”)
peace

There are no angels with white robes and halos in the great reading. Control is a status given and taken away by the god. And people do imagine men from the imagination (like an imaginary friend). 

The interpretation that "jinn" is the imagination is empirically verifiable and is well aligned with all the passages in the great reading. Certainly what entices people to lie and do evil and is the only source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination ... we all know it for certain... look inside you... you know it is not a ghost or red guy holding a fork or a serpent or any other mythical creature :) 

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Jafar on July 25, 2020, 10:56:52 PM
It is really hard to define any "creation" as being totally separate.

Everything is actually connected.
As actually in absolute reality only God exist.

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There is no such things in the great reading as a specie called angels. The term MLK ملك means owner/controller.

In Biblical Hebrew, the noun "Mel’akah" (מְלָאכָה), meaning "work", "occupation" or "craftsmanship".
So yes it might be a 'role' that is being assigned to.
 
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Yes. We should not take the human imagination (the source of all falsehood in the universe) and its descendants as allies other than the god (the source of all truth in the universe).

Indeed all of our technology, including submarines are a product of the human imagination when it submits with the truth in the laws of fluid dynamics.

The interpretation that "jinn" is the imagination is empirically verifiable and is well aligned with all the passages in the great reading. Certainly what entices people to lie and do evil and is the only source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination ... we all know it for certain... look inside you... you know it is not a ghost or red guy holding a fork or a serpent or any other mythical creature :) 

Every creation is actually a product of God's imagination anyway (including human) it's not entirely correct to label anything as either 'falsehood' and 'truth' as it can be both, depending on the context and point of view. Anything on this universe can be 'falsehood' or 'imaginary'  when put in certain context or point of view.

A similitude might be, jafar which is the product of my imagination and ayman which is the product of your imagination. In reality jafar and ayman do not exist, they only exist within the universe, or the context of this forum. When this web forum is dead and definitely so will they.

Extending on the concept further... beyond the scope of merely web forum universe.

What if I tell you that human, or should I say the spirit / consciousness of the human can also create things or should I say 'personality' as a product of it's own thought and imagination?
And yes it can be a 'ghost' or 'red guy holding a fork' or 'serpent' as well, depending on one's thought or imagination.
By ghost here it mean (one of) the personality that the spirit once being manifested or temporarily being attached to in this universe.

How it happened are being explained in this video, and also a way where you can 'see' those 'personalities'.

Heart Chakra-Problems& Possibilites- Sadhguru
https://youtu.be/2CWJGKvQRU0?t=700

But definitely one should not be 'afraid' of them let alone 'worship' them

Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 25, 2020, 11:56:04 PM
"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."

Peace brother  Ayman ..

Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world. 

Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature? And hell is not literal?

God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)...  Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?..  What was it that Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated?   Were they real or fantasy?  Aren't the malaika Jinns?  And created of fire?  for you not... Okay..
What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees?  Was it real?  Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?

You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother  all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?

According to 2:285 .... We need to believe in Malaika..  Who are they?  Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?
Who is Gibreal who  is Micheal ? Are they fantasy? 
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces?  Are they fantasy?  Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God?  Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire?  Are these human fantasy?  What relation with them to human?
Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...

How can hell is not literal?  Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned?  Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 40:46.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...

With whome God was furious in verse 7:11-18?  So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death,  you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read...  Even messengers are questioned.. 5:116"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God..  What a shame on those who said Jesus was God...  So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they?  Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 26, 2020, 12:39:37 AM
Peace everyone,

Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.

14:22    And the devil said when the matter was complete: "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Mohammed. on July 26, 2020, 03:49:31 AM
peace all,

jinn & ins differences:
https://youtu.be/yd9D6togaxU (https://youtu.be/yd9D6togaxU)
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 27, 2020, 08:24:59 AM
"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."

Peace brother  Ayman ..
Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world. 
Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature?

Peace dear brother Jkhan,

According to the great reading every living thing is made of water. The "jinn" is made of fire. So according to the great reading the "jinn" are not a living thing.

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And hell is not literal?

Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical. This is just like "pain" is literal but how you feel pain is through electrical pulses transmitted to your brain cells through your nervous system. If your nervous system goes out of control and spontaneously transmits the worst pain that it can transmit then this would be the worst torture. 

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God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)...  Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?..  What was  hat Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated?   Were they real or fantasy?  Aren't the malaika Jinns?  And created of fire?  for you not... Okay..

The controllers aren't "jinn"/fantasy. Controller is just a role/status that the god appoints to any creature, living or not.

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What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees?  Was it real?  Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?

The dialogue is real but Iblees certainly didn't speak it in Arabic. So the dialogue in the great reading is allegorical and this is why it is told in different words every time it is recounted in the great reading. 

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You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother  all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?

Living creatures are created from water. Clay/mud has water. Iblis is created from fire, so it is not a living thing. Simple.

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According to 2:285 .... We need to believe in Malaika..  Who are they?  Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?

They are controllers. They are any creature (living or not) who the god decides to give the status/role of controller to. You could become a controller if the god decides to appoint you as one. The god can also take away this appointment/status like what happened with Iblis. Unlike "jinn"/fantasies, the controllers are part of the hidden. So if you were appointed as a controller by the god, that side of you would be hidden and to us you would still seem like a regular human being.
 
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Who is Gibreal who  is Micheal ? Are they fantasy?
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces?  Are they fantasy?  Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God?  Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire?  Are these human fantasy?  What relation with them to human?

They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) which was given the status of controller and then he lost this status when he disobeyed the god.
 
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Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...

No such thing as virgins. Those are things that humans and the fantasies cannot grasp. This means that those things in heaven are better than anything you can fantasize. It is not all about sex.

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How can hell is not literal?  Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned?  Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 40:46.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...
With whome God was furious in verse 7:11-18?  So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death,  you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read...  Even messengers are questioned.. 5:116"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Hell is literal. What is the worse thing you can imagine? This is hell.

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Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God..  What a shame on those who said Jesus was God...  So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they?  Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding..

I hope I clarified for you.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 27, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Peace Ayman,

You did not give your own understanding without interpretation or assumption  the verses that I quoted before.

we can start with these 2 verses :

72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

Thanks.

Peace,

From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.

72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"
72:2
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."
72:3
"And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son."
72:4
"And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God."
72:5
"And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."
72:6
"And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin / rahaqan /fatigue, exhaustion."

6:112
And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet-human and Jinn devils-to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

6:128
And the Day We gather them all: "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said: "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said: "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

6:130
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and narrate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

7:38
He said: "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from mankind and Jinn to the Fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first: "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!" He replied: "Each will receive double, but you do not know."

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

18:50
And We said to the angels: "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

27:17
And the soldiers of Solomon were gathered, comprising of mankind and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.

27:39
A powerful being from among the Jinn said: "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."

34:12
And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him with the permission of his Lord; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.

41:25
And We assigned to them associates who adorned their present and past actions-and the sentence was deserved by them-as it was for the nations before them of Jinn and mankind; they were losers.

41:29
And those who have rejected will say: "Our Lord, show us those who have misled us from among the Jinn and mankind so we can trample them under our feet, so that they would be the lowest."

46:18
These are the ones against whom the sentence has been deserved in nations who had come before them of mankind and Jinn; they are the losers.

46:29
And We dispatched to you a company of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Qur'an. So when they arrived there, they said: "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.

55:33
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 27, 2020, 01:56:25 PM
Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.
14:22    And the devil said when the matter was complete: "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."

The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us. Accomplishing this original command is what restores balance and makes BOTH "jinn"/fantasy and humans serve the god:

51:56. And I did not create the fantasies and the humans except to serve me.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 27, 2020, 08:07:21 PM
Peace brother Ayman..

Below your comment "A"...

"The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us"

So you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree?  You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God...  But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees...  Not all Jinns are malaika...  Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested,  coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...

Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk,  they can feel,  they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God,  fantasy failed... And withdrew...

Below your comment "B"...

"They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) "

Do you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..

Brother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE...  With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..

God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..

For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?

Carefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran?  How can a status be given to non existing..

Note below verse..

46:29 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."

In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?

Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...

Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?

How do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing? 
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..

Iblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why?  It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap...  Did we human requested a respite?  No..  Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..

Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..

But quran is very clear and no doubt...

Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire..  And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..

I would like to add this verse as well..

2:30. And when the god said to the controllers: “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said: “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said: “I know what you don’t know.

This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human...  We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue..  Lets hope all of them...  That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human?  And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient....  So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...

Anyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 28, 2020, 01:55:46 AM
Peace

Does rijal have an allegorical or literal meaning ?

72:6
"And there were men/rijal from among mankind who used to seek help from the men/rijal among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 28, 2020, 08:37:53 AM
Peace Houriya,
we can start with these 2 verses :
72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"

Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?
If your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages. 

Quote
7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

This passage makes it clear that humans and their imaginations are tied together. Do people understand with their hearts? How about physically blind people, are they destined to hell? How about physically deaf people, are they destined to hell? The passage is clearly allegorical, addressing the imagination. 

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 28, 2020, 09:23:27 AM
Peace brother JKhan,

So you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree?  You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God...  But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees...  Not all Jinns are malaika...  Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested,  coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...
Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk,  they can feel,  they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God,  fantasy failed... And withdrew...

No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants :)
 
Quote
Do you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..

They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 3:26, which you are not considering.

Quote
Brother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE...  With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..
God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..
For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?

Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?

Quote
Carefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran?  How can a status be given to non existing..
Note below verse..
46:29 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."
In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?
Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...
Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?

Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.

Quote
How do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing? 
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..

Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.

The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (40:16) and everyone will see them (50:21-23).

Quote
Iblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why?  It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap...  Did we human requested a respite?  No..  Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..
Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..

Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?

As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?

Quote
But quran is very clear and no doubt...
Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire..  And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..

All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.

Quote
I would like to add this verse as well..
2:30. And when the god said to the controllers: “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said: “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said: “I know what you don’t know.
This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human...  We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue..  Lets hope all of them...  That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human?  And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient....  So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...

The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (18:74). They were wrong even though they knew the future (18:80). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.

Quote
Anyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path..

The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 28, 2020, 09:44:12 AM
Peace Ayman

Peace Houriya,
Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?

Agree

Quote
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?

There is a word in Arabic to say imaginary: khayal, the verb yukhayyalu appears only once in the story of Moses with the magicians.


Quote
If your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages.
 

For you a group of Jinn were listening means a group of humans listening with their fantasies ?

I do not agree

Quote
humans and their imaginations are tied together.
 

Yes, it's normal the human being is endowed with all the capacities to reason, invent and imagine.

hearts, eyes, ears are not allegories in 7:179.

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

I agree we can see without really seeing, listen without hearing when our mind is elsewhere / unaware, and read the reading without understanding it when the heart is veiled and our senses are sealed.
The veil here is an allegory same for they are like hoofed animals.

A deaf mute sees with his eyes and understands with the heart, ditto for the blind, he hears with his ears and understands with the heart.
Understanding is linked to the heart.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on July 28, 2020, 10:26:02 AM
salan ayman

you say “ Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves.”

no one said that jinn are ghosts or red men with forks or reptilians etc or that angels have white robes and halos etc ... all we are saying is that  jinn are creatures created by The God and definately not human fantasies (i do not even see the logic in “fantasies” lol) ...

it’s quite obvious throughout the Quran that jinn are a separate creature ... and my understanding is that jinn and angels are same creation, but jinn disbelieved whilst angels believed in The God (perhaps i am wrong)

you say “The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented.”

the point is not to develop interpretations just to be different and think that what is already presented must be wrong ...
it is very incorrect to think that mainstream is necessarily wrong just because hadith and sunnah are upheld whilst those who uphold Quran only are necessarily right ...

i think the Quran is literal ... and when examples are made, we are explicitly told that they are examples .. but everything is the truth and literal ... i believe no allegory or examples unless stated they are examples or allegories

Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together." (surah 11, verse 119)

.. imagination being burned in hell? hein lol ?
and btw hell is physical and it has been described to us in the Quran ... there is no allegory or metaphor

anyways brother ayman jinn are true separate creatures ... and humans who do not submit to The God, invent lies about The God, do not obey The God, do not pray or provide charity etc etc actually took the jinn for allies (that is what is meant by shirk) and on day of judgement humans and jinns will mutually disown each other and start cursing each other ... there is no fantasy here

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 28, 2020, 10:29:42 AM
A complement to my last message :

22:46 Have they not roamed the earth and had hearts with which to
comprehend and ears with which to hear? No, it is not the sight
which is blind, but it is the hearts that are in the chests that are
blind.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on July 28, 2020, 12:38:11 PM
salam

regarding the jinn and angels to be of same creation, there is a verse that makes me actually think perhaps no (if anyone can help)

i forgot the verse number but it was when The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as allies to which the angels reply no humans took the jinn as allies

does that separate the creations into angels and jinn rather than angels being jinn that were given control or jinn being not achieving rank of angels?

also, why is it thought that “malaika” just means being given control and not a creation?? what makes anyone think that?

yes The God asked the angels to prostrate and iblis refused so i understand iblis was an angel and then fell to being a jinn, but how does the relation go?

jinn are fallen angels? or angels are jinn who were given control so the creation is jinn? or are jinn and angels different creations?

thank uuu

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 28, 2020, 01:00:51 PM
Brother ayman,

Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.

What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 06:46:57 PM
Peace brother JKhan,

No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants :)
 
They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 3:26, which you are not considering.

Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?

Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.

Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.

The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (40:16) and everyone will see them (50:21-23).

Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?

As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?

All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.

The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (18:74). They were wrong even though they knew the future (18:80). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.

The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman brother..

Unfortunately you are not sticking with Quran... But you respond something else... I don't need fancy answers of engineers bla bla.. Even they engineers or doctors or lawyers, remember order was to employees.. Order was to malaika... Iblees was one of them... If iblees accepted he was created by fire... By what all those who were with iblees were created? Use logic..

Anyhow I would like to tell these two things with verse..

15:39-40 Iblis said, "Lord, because you have caused me to go astray, I shall make earthly things attractive to (people) and mislead all of them, except Your sincere servants"
15:42 "and you(iblees) have no authority over My servants except the erring ones who follow you."

No fantasy dude.. Just look carefully the verses... Iblees or even no power can change the sincere servants of God... Iblees accepted it.. Sincere servants of God will always follow what God ordered to follow... They don't care of the deception of iblees and his gang.. They know what is deception and what is truth... They won't let it near them.. They know how be away from it...
They don't have any connection with fantasy as per you or iblees or his decendants..

Second point is sincere followers of God are guided.. Remember God guides whom He wills and God misguides whom He wills... So God does it...  Not even iblees... So for sure not fantasy... God knows the soul and let it go astray as per their choice so job of iblees made easy...
Even sincere followers have imagination apart from what they do for their salvation.. That's general life.. I always imagine how to cook a wonderful dish when away from family... It comes really well...
Dude... Note this also... When God sealed the hearts of disbelievers what iblees need to do... Did iblees seal the hearts?  Satan doesn't know anything what human thinks and human imagination and human fantasy ... They only keep watching at us... And react and whisper according to what they see.. So human get deceived coz of whisper by not using his own imagination ... Imagination or knowledge and wisdom all from God and not from iblees...

Why God says before reading Quran to seek refuge in God from Satan.. Coz reacts by watching not by what we imagine ... God only knows what we think and what is in our hearts which propels for imagination?  Iblees has no such capacity ...


Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 06:59:53 PM

Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?

Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?


Peace,

Ayman

Question is not directed me but let me give my response as well...

I never agree that there is allegorical passages in Quran unless and otherwise manifestly stated it is an allegory... Otherwise before every allegory god doesn't need to state allegory... What is stated as allegory is allegory others manifest..


Allegorical passages not speaking to the imagination... What nonsense that is... Allegorical passages speaking to the truth... Allegory is presented based on truth.. To ponder on that allegory and think of reality...

Take any allegory.. Are they imagination to anyone's taste.. No.. They are reality in its own... It is there in reality... Nothing to imagine.. but just to compare ...
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 07:10:11 PM
Brother ayman,

Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.

What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?

That's a good story... I think what say is true story... Coz.. Long time back One of our staff lost her valuable diamond studded gold neclace on her way to a wedding.. She was so upset and keep telling to everyone.. It seems so valuable.. But one of the friends told there is a person in a remote village who is good at finding the lost.. But she said.. They will only take our money.. But she is sure she has lost it while entering to wedding reception...
Somehow she went to that person hoping he would find her necklace.. This person is famous calling Jinnwasam..
She has gone to him.. Not told anything.. But this person told you lost your necklace... She asked where is it?..  He told you have not lost.. It's near your courtyard.. She found it in the same place..

How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: amin on July 28, 2020, 09:34:23 PM

"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "

most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.:)

long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 09:35:27 PM
 22:75 "Allah chooseth from the angels messengers, and (also) from mankind. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Seer."

17:94-95 And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger...

Now by above two verses anyone would understand that Malaika are a creature... By the tone of human in this verse they knew there is a creature other than human... Calling malaika a separate creature is also no harm... Coz while they are in that status we don't know what they are capable of doing with the permission of God and their privileges (for example shape shifting to human, so many vested powers that makes them unique from jinn and human) .. In Yousuf story those ladies called Yousuf.. He is not man but a malak..  Not coz he is attractive but coz no human cannot be like him but beyond human nature.

But the concern here is.. For brother Ayman Jinn is not living creature but fantasy of human...
You would have clearly understood by 17:94-95 malaika are a creature... But for sure God created Men and Jinn only for testing..
But with the story of iblees throughout the Quran it is indicated by God that iblees was malak and degraded to mere jinn... But iblees while being a malak did not lie anything .. Whatever iblees told was true.. Iblees told while still being as malak and while being among other malaika that he was created by fire... He exposed what he was created being a malak.. So we can manifestly deduce that malaika are created by fire... And God confirms He created Jinn by fire..
Now.. God degrade all iblees's status of malak to mere jinn.. God never made another creature out of iblees but only deprived all what he was given as malak... So he became mere a jinn... For example.. If a prophet/messenger was deprived all his status to be mere human being or king is deprived all his kingship to be normal human being.. ..

Isn't that clear that jinn is a creature other than human..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 09:55:02 PM
"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "

most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.:)

long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.

Peace..
I don't want to shift this topic to another.. But that's what happened.. The one suggested to her has no connection with the one assisted.. After couple of days he went abroad...he just suggested while passing by hearing her plight..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: amin on July 28, 2020, 10:28:29 PM
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.

In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods,  in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television  for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety  of the people believing these and fall for these,  instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 28, 2020, 10:53:08 PM
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.

In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods,  in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television  for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety  of the people believing these and fall for these,  instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.

Yes... Brother..
Let's keep this subject aside if possible or let us create another topic.. Coz we don't know the reality what happened.. But personal experiences as said by brother kawaja is personal experiences that no one will believe until they experience them..
Honestly I research... I used to watch the travel channel to grasp something about what those personal experience depict.. All those programs like ghost adventure, haunted towns.. Big foot.. Bla bla.. People have personal experiences which are abnormal unless they lie.. But we can't merely say they lie..
I also heard personal experiences of many people and friends that I don't want to share.. But we need to respect that coz we don't know what they are...
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Fadiva on July 29, 2020, 03:23:21 AM
Peace everyone,

Ayman your statements must be based on all the verses dealing with the subject. You only used a few of them, some short verses ( what about the above and the following ?)
In all occurences of "jin", can you replace this word with "fantasies" ?
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Fadiva on July 29, 2020, 03:40:00 AM
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.

In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods,  in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television  for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety  of the people believing these and fall for these,  instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.

I agree.
And I think that some people gives interpretations of what they experienced as strange with their belief. That why we found different interpretaions in different cultures or belief. And they are people who wnat to believe those interpretations without seeking the reason or just admit they can explain it to confort their belief.
The truth is that we don't know unless we have a proof. Admitting something asserted by other without investigating is not reasonning.
Sometimes we really want to accept something because it confort our belief.
Maybe we should open a topic about this. As Jkhan said : "I don't want to shift this topic to another.."
(I know that Imran started to talk about personnal experience).
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ade_cool on July 29, 2020, 09:57:36 AM
Salam Ayman,

Sorry a little bit out of topic ...I just check your website: http://www.quran4peace.org/ (English section)

I am looking forward to the completion of all chapters in English (so far only 3 chapters are available in English).


Wassalam,
Ade
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ade_cool on July 29, 2020, 10:11:32 AM
salam

regarding the jinn and angels to be of same creation, there is a verse that makes me actually think perhaps no (if anyone can help)

i forgot the verse number but it was when The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as allies to which the angels reply no humans took the jinn as allies

does that separate the creations into angels and jinn rather than angels being jinn that were given control or jinn being not achieving rank of angels?


Not quite as per what you described ...but maybe these are the verses that you are looking for?

[34:40] And on the Day when We gather them all, then We will say to the malaikah/controllers: “Was it you that these people used to serve?”
[34:41] They will say: “Be You glorified. You are our Master, not they". Nay, they were serving the Jinn; most were believers to them.

Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on July 29, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
salam ade

yup those are the verses (i was not sure if the exact word used was “allies” or “masters”)

can we assume jinn and angels are separate creations or the same?

there is also a verse if i remember correctly where The God tells us He does not take “assitants/helpers” from those who mislead ... and from my understanding those who mislead are the jinn whilst angels do not mislead

as such i believe perhaps both angles and jinn are made from fire but jinn disbelieved and mislead whilst angels believed.. but any thoughts are welcome

thank uuu

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 29, 2020, 09:40:41 PM
Dear All Peace..

Will Malaika go to Hell though they are Jinn by creation and created by Fire? No.. Coz they are not part of Testing… God created Men and Jin for testing and Not elite Malaika..

Anticipate at least by reading the below verse, those who up to now not understood would understand in sha allah…

41:29 “ those who disbelieved will [then] say, "Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and men [so] we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."

The above verse is the dialogue of those who are in Hell… what they request from God? They want to know who are those who misled them from MEN and JINN… the one who misled and the one got misled all in same boat.. If it is the FANTASY of human misled those in Hell, why they should beg to God to show those who misled them of MEN and JINN?... Further, how they can put those who misled them under their feet? How can they put the fantasy of their own under their feet so that it goes to the lowest? Doesn’t it manifestly indicate that MEN and JINN both in Hell going through to what they did in the past? Yes it is…

If one doesn’t not understand this clear verse, I wonder who would ever understand any verse..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 05:45:48 PM
Agree
For you a group of Jinn were listening means a group of humans listening with their fantasies ?
I do not agree

If you agree that there are allegorical verses then by definition allegories address the imagination. If I tell you "get off your high horse" and you take it with your mind literally it will not make any sense. You need to imagine someone sitting on a high horse and this gives him a sense of prestige and haughtiness and then you will get the allegorical meeting of being arrogant and haughty.
 
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There is a word in Arabic to say imaginary: khayal, the verb yukhayyalu appears only once in the story of Moses with the magicians.

Yes. The magicians work on the human imagination. They make believe by tricking your eye and letting your imagination do the rest. They don't really perform miracles :).

Also, the term is actually used in several other passages and not only in 20:66. It is used to denote haughtiness/arrogance is 4:36, 31:18, and 57:23.  Of course, haughtiness/arrogance is a product of the human fantasy.

It is also used directly in relation to Iblis/"jinn" in 17:64: ... and bring on them with your fantasies and your foot...   
 
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Yes, it's normal the human being is endowed with all the capacities to reason, invent and imagine.

Imagination comes first before invention. We first imagine flying machines and then when we make this fantasy submit to our reason with the truth in the laws of aerodynamics we invent airplanes. On the other hand, if our fantasy controls us then we would go crazy and jump from a high building thinking we could flap our arms and fly.

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hearts, eyes, ears are not allegories in 7:179.

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

I agree we can see without really seeing, listen without hearing when our mind is elsewhere / unaware, and read the reading without understanding it when the heart is veiled and our senses are sealed.
The veil here is an allegory same for they are like hoofed animals.
A deaf mute sees with his eyes and understands with the heart, ditto for the blind, he hears with his ears and understands with the heart.
Understanding is linked to the heart.
Peace

So according to your physical interpretation someone who is physically blind and deaf is destined for hell!

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 05:57:02 PM
you say “ Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves.”
no one said that jinn are ghosts or red men with forks or reptilians etc or that angels have white robes and halos etc ... all we are saying is that  jinn are creatures created by The God and definately not human fantasies (i do not even see the logic in “fantasies” lol) ...
it’s quite obvious throughout the Quran that jinn are a separate creature ... and my understanding is that jinn and angels are same creation, but jinn disbelieved whilst angels believed in The God (perhaps i am wrong)

Where in the great reading it says that "jinn" and "angels" (whatever that means since the term angels is not even in the great reading) are the same creation? The great reading is clear that "malak" is just a status given by the god (see 3:36).

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i think the Quran is literal ... and when examples are made, we are explicitly told that they are examples .. but everything is the truth and literal ... i believe no allegory or examples unless stated they are examples or allegories

So according to you there are no allegories in the great reading. This is very strange. So according to you when the great reading says in 17:29 "do not make your hand tied to your neck" it means do not physically strangle yourself and not do not allegorically be stingy :) since we are not explicitly told this is an allegory.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:00:42 PM
Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.
What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?

The imagination is a very powerful tool. It is used by tricksters, fraudsters, and con artists.
 
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
Why God says before reading Quran to seek refuge in God from Satan.. Coz reacts by watching not by what we imagine ... God only knows what we think and what is in our hearts which propels for imagination?  Iblees has no such capacity ...

Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:07:01 PM
"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "
most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.:)
long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.

Belief plays no role in knowing the concept of "jinn"/fantasy. In fact most of those who believe in "jinn"/fantasy are going to hell per 34:41. 
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:10:42 PM
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.

In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods,  in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television  for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety  of the people believing these and fall for these,  instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.

You have made an excellent point. While all truth comes from the god, all falsehood comes from "jinn." The ONLY source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination. No one can argue against this indisputable fact. Thank you.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:14:38 PM
Sorry a little bit out of topic ...I just check your website: http://www.quran4peace.org/ (English section)
I am looking forward to the completion of all chapters in English (so far only 3 chapters are available in English).

I have completed a draft of 5 additional chapters and working on another one for the total of 9 chapters (so far). I want to make sure all the chapters mesh well together and then publish everything at once. This is one of the topics I discuss in the book and hence this discussion is very useful :)

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:18:40 PM
Not quite as per what you described ...but maybe these are the verses that you are looking for?
[34:40] And on the Day when We gather them all, then We will say to the malaikah/controllers: “Was it you that these people used to serve?”
[34:41] They will say: “Be You glorified. You are our Master, not they". Nay, they were serving the Jinn; most were believers to them.

Thank you. This is exactly what is happening. Idolaters thing that the fantasies control things. For example, they think a black stone in Mecca controls wiping sins. In reality they have faith in a fantasy not real controllers. Obviously, those who serve fantasies and believe in them are going to hell.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:25:40 PM
Will Malaika go to Hell though they are Jinn by creation and created by Fire? No.. Coz they are not part of Testing… God created Men and Jin for testing and Not elite Malaika..

Malak is just a status. If a malak/controller disobeys the god then they will stop being a malak.
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41:29 “ those who disbelieved will [then] say, "Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and men [so] we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."
The above verse is the dialogue of those who are in Hell… what they request from God? They want to know who are those who misled them from MEN and JINN… the one who misled and the one got misled all in same boat.. If it is the FANTASY of human misled those in Hell, why they should beg to God to show those who misled them of MEN and JINN?... Further, how they can put those who misled them under their feet? How can they put the fantasy of their own under their feet so that it goes to the lowest? Doesn’t it manifestly indicate that MEN and JINN both in Hell going through to what they did in the past? Yes it is…
If one doesn’t not understand this clear verse, I wonder who would ever understand any verse..

Again, the passage makes it clear that the fantasies and humans are tied together. A fantasy are powerless without a human that serves it. A fantasy can make the human imagine that a stone cube in Mecca has power to forgive sins if you spin around it 7 times. This remains a mental picture until the fantasy controls some human dude who builds a stone cube and invents a Hadith that says spinning 7 times around it will make you sinless. This is how all idol worship works. It starts with the fantasy and then the human creates the false idol of the fantasy.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on July 30, 2020, 06:28:55 PM
Ayman your statements must be based on all the verses dealing with the subject. You only used a few of them, some short verses ( what about the above and the following ?)
In all occurences of "jin", can you replace this word with "fantasies" ?

Yes. All occurrences of "jin" we can replace the word with "fantasies." This makes better sense than leaving it untranslated because we are clueless about its meaning or replacing it with other popular meanings such as ghosts or red men with forks or serpents/reptilians :) 
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 30, 2020, 07:15:34 PM
Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace,

Ayman

I am afraid it is not debate but deviation...

Finally... Let me tell you..
God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time?  No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?
Coz malaika knew they are a creature and not being tested.. And if put to test then will begin trouble.. So it is human inner nature that makes him shed blood...to shed blood human has to be as evil as he can.. They knew it.. So evil is within human not iblees's.. Iblees whisper that's all..
Iblees story is later addition.. Malaika never knew that iblees would deny God.. And He will become enemy to khalifa on Earth and become fantasy ..
Even before the fantasy (jinn as per you) is fallen malaika predicted human shed blood indicates clearly that human heart is the key... If that corrupts he is lost.. God sealed disbelievrs heart from guidance.. So when no guidance vulnerable for any act... No fantasy..

What if iblees didn't fall,  will not Allah create Adam?  What if no iblees no hell?  All will be there.. Human will deny God whether there is iblees or not...  God started create human to test not based on iblees


If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God..  In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 30, 2020, 11:16:02 PM
If you agree that there are allegorical verses then by definition allegories address the imagination.

These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.
 

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Also, the term is actually used in several other passages and not only in 20:66. It is used to denote haughtiness/arrogance is 4:36, 31:18, and 57:23.  Of course, haughtiness/arrogance is a product of the human fantasy.

Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

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It is also used directly in relation to Iblis/"jinn" in 17:64: ... and bring on them with your fantasies and your foot...
 

17:64    "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl  and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.

Alkayl doesn't mean imagination =  khayal, but  forces / cavalry.

I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Men among the jin and humans both think.

72:6    "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
72:7    "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."

The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.
 
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Imagination comes first before invention. We first imagine flying machines and then when we make this fantasy submit to our reason with the truth in the laws of aerodynamics we invent airplanes. On the other hand, if our fantasy controls us then we would go crazy and jump from a high building thinking we could flap our arms and fly.

When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0
 
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So according to your physical interpretation someone who is physically blind and deaf is destined for hell!

That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Houriya on July 31, 2020, 01:00:05 AM
91:7    And a soul / nafs and what He made.
91:8    So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs)  his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on July 31, 2020, 05:42:19 AM
Brother Ayman.. Peace..

I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...

Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection  literal / actual / physical ?


This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a  state ...

If you are still in this forum,  pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..

Your quotes about .

"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"

"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."


Very funny your quotes..  ;D
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 01, 2020, 11:55:21 AM
God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time?  No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?

The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 18:80 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

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If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God..  In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 01, 2020, 12:14:27 PM
These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.

Unlike the brain, the heart doesn't have reasoning/understanding ability. The only way to understand allegorical imagery is via the imagination. The imagination then triggers feelings (the heart). If we take allegorical passages literally then we will not understand them.
 
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Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

Thank you. I will try to check it.
 
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17:64    "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl  and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
Alkayl doesn't mean imagination =  khayal, but  forces / cavalry.

Remember the "get off your high horse" allegory. Horses in the past were a status symbol for nobility. The meaning of "khayl" is derived from arrogance "mokhtal" which is a product of the imagination "khayal".  Also, your translation of "men" is inaccurate. The word is "rijlk" not "rijalk". 

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I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

The ego is the product of the imagination that inflates our ego.

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When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

All lies in the universe come from the human imagination. His imagination makes him proud and he "imagines" he is powerful.

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Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Yes being conscious and attentive to the real you (that is part of the truth in the universe) allows you to control your imagination and make it submit to you.

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Men among the jin and humans both think.
72:6    "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
72:7    "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."
The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.

Haven't you heard of imaginary men? Don't Sunnis seek help from an imaginary man in Hadiths named Mohamed who is not the real Mohamed? Don't Christian seek help from an imaginary man named Jesus who is not the real Jesus?   
 
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When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0


Quote
That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Since the heart is not the physical organ people "understand" with then the passage is clearly allegorical. I am sure there are lots of idolaters who have healthy hearts while there are many monotheists with high cholesterol and high blood pressure and physically unhealthy hearts :). Again, you are confirming that the passage is allegorical.   

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 01, 2020, 12:19:08 PM
91:7    And a soul / nafs and what He made.
91:8    So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs)  his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Exactly, inspired its immorality and piety, not inspired its lies. Immorality happens when the self loses control and falls under the control if the imagination. The god is the truth and creates with the truth. The god doesn't inspire lies. The ONLY source of lies in the universe is the human imagination.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 01, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...
Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection  literal / actual / physical ?

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorical.

Quote
This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a  state ...
If you are still in this forum,  pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..
Your quotes about .
"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"
"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."

Very funny your quotes..  ;D

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.
 
Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on August 01, 2020, 06:15:29 PM
The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 18:80 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision..  No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..

So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all.  That fallen malak (iblees)  is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it...  Human is not the only source of falsehood...  All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business...  Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does..  Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails  and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails.  . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on August 01, 2020, 06:44:46 PM

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorical.

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.
 
Peace,

Ayman
Peace brother...

I hope you are thorough with the meaning of allegory or parable to say description of day of ressurection is "clearly allegorical "

Is this earth and heavens real?  Yes it is coz we live on it we see it as long as we can tangibly observe it...

So what could be if it is replaced..
14:48 "on the Day the earth will be replaced by another earth, and the heavens [as well], and all creatures will come out before Allah , the One, the Prevailing."

Is above allegorical?

39:68 "And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allah will. Then it will blown a second time and behold, they will be standing, looking on, And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged"

What allegory you find here to explain it in any other way other that how God has worded it.. Do anyone need explanation over these verses if it is allegorical?

I don't see not only in the above verses but any verse of day of ressurection any allegory but obvious verses directly speaking..

Unfortunately your fantasy allow you to think allegorical..

If day of ressurection is real what lies ahead is Janna and Jahanna.. From reality to just stay of mind.. No way.. Day of ressurection is real so do Janna and Jahanna  . ...

I can bring all the verses of day of ressurection and hell and Janna.. But useless for you coz you will remain saying allegorical... At least debate point of view positive readers would get an idea what day of ressurection is and hell and Janna is..
That's all..

Your second point I said funny coz both the statements crystal clearly contradicts.. Any reader will understand  your statement goes in two directions..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 01, 2020, 11:06:02 PM
I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision..  No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..
So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all.  That fallen malak (iblees)  is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it...  Human is not the only source of falsehood...  All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business...  Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does..  Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails  and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails.  . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..

Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 3:26, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie. 

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on August 01, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 3:26, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie. 

Peace,

Ayman

Brother..
Pls read what I have written... I am responding to what your concern which is human is the source of all falsehood..
What I have written is very clear unless spelling or grammar mistake..

So your fantasy,  now who gave this fantasy to say that I am trying to win the debate.. Who will name me that I have won the debate?  Will somekne here assigned to name the winners of debate..
Just relax.. All I want is to take the truth to the top either through me or through others who furnish the truth with logic... Truth will always win... Not the one who debate or the one who lose the debate..
Again I repeat human is not the greatest source of falsehood ever..no proof from Quran  for you to derive.. But all falsehood started within a malak who is created by fire.. He is a physical creature cold jinn..
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Enquiry on August 02, 2020, 12:18:29 AM
Salam Ayman,

Hope you are doing well. I have been searching for some answers in this forum I went eventually all the way back since the inception of this forum. I had the pleasure to read your articles and understanding of the cube and other important topics. There was an article that Wakas gave a link to, but i think the links dont work prior to 2003, so I was hoping you still had that artice. I'm not sure about the name of the article, but it was along the lines of the bond or commitment or contract between mankind and God. In the end I was looking answers regarding Hell fire (may we all be saved from that terrible pusnishment by our dear God).

If it's not too much, I was hoping you could answer my question of whether Hell is forever, and how it is justified. Please see my link:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611032.0

Thank you for your contribution/time.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on August 02, 2020, 07:17:46 AM
salam ayman

my understanding 😊:

what do you mean angels (malak) is just a status?? a status given to whom?? and what makes you think that it is just a status?? 😊

when The God tells the angels He wants to create humans on earth, to whom is He speaking??

unless mistaken i remember there is a verse where The God says that the heavens will be filled with angels on judgement day ... what are these angels that will fill the heavens on the day of resurrection??

who will carry the throne of The God if not 8 angels??

or in the following verse 5 of surah 45

“almost might the heavens above be rent asunder while the angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”

when The God says that angels seek forgiveness for those on earth... what do you think these angels are???

my point, it is quite obvious that angels are separate creatures and the jinn as well

surah 34 verse 14

“Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.”

how does imagination even fit in the above verse?

jinn are made from fire, what does imagination being made of fire even mean??

what makes you think that verse 3.26 is talking about angel as a status??? when i read the verse i understsnd quite clearly The God is speaking about anyone He gives sovereignty to which includes human kings, there is no mention of being about malaika

again, what made you think angel is just a status?? and if it is a status, to whom is it given?? who are these creatures that are given such status???

iblees is not a source of anything...
the only source of everything is The God
everything is from Him
also, unless mistaken, i remember there is a verse where The God said He created the human with his virtues and vices

the devil makes false promises, lies about The God, misleads etc

i understand the source of everything is The God, and only He permits things to exist (falsehood existing is a permission from Him as well)

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on August 04, 2020, 09:49:00 PM
18:50-51 "When We told the angels to submit before Adam they all together submitted except Iblis. He became jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you  obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive.
I did not call to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray
"

Peace everyone...
Very carefully read above two verses in any translation or in pure Arabic..
Do the above two verse give any hint that Jinn is non existing fantasy of human?

Every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak... Who is exempted from this is  in fact God.. "He doesn't beget nor begotten' rest all does..
By thesw verses it makes manifest that God created Djinn well before human and they became manifold..  Out of them God chose whom willed to the status of malaika.. Even out of them God chose whome will for the creation process of Heavens and Earth.. For sure even though iblees was a malak before sinned,  God didn't choose him for creation of heavens and Earth.. And non of the Jinns were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were..
The above verses very crystal clearly proves that..
Many glaring wording evidences are comprised in these two verses for those who ponder...
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on August 05, 2020, 03:06:52 PM
salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you :)

i understand angels are male

“Or did We create the angels female while they were witnesses?” [37:150]

“And they make the angels who themselves are slaves of the Most Gracious females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.” [43:19]

i am not sure, but jinn on other hand i think perhaps have females

you say “a non of the jinn were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were.. ”

i understand you are saying “elite of elite” of angels helped in creation? (i dont think we are told in Quran about there being elite or elite of elite of angels... we cannot make such claim of there being elite or elites of elite)
and brother what makes you think that angels helped in creation of heavens and earth??
The earth and heavens (and everything else literally including angels, michael and gabriel) were created by The God alone
He does not mention anything about the angels taking part in creation when He describes creating the heavens and the earth (or anything else) I understand from the verse  you quoted that the jinn were not witness to creation of heavens and earth ie not present ... no mention or allusion to angels in the verse

also, what does it mean “elite” or “elite of elite” of angels? The God does not make clear to us that there is a distinction between angels being elite and non elite, or a distinction that we should know.
to my knowledge the only time He mentions a distinction between angles is in the following verse

All praise belongs to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth who has made the angels messengers of two or three or four wings. He increases the creation as He wills. The God has power over all things. [35, 1]

surah 37 verse 8  “They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side”
the above verse in my opinion does not make a distinction between angels (i may be wrong) but perhaps talks about all angels in general

(please verify all verses quoted)

to sum up my understand: angels are males, they did not help in creation of the heavens or earth or in creation of anything else (The God simply says Be and things are) and we are not aware of there being elite or non elite angels

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: jkhan on August 05, 2020, 08:59:41 PM
salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you :)

i understand angels are male

“Or did We create the angels female while they were witnesses?” [37:150]

“And they make the angels who themselves are slaves of the Most Gracious females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.” [43:19]

i am not sure, but jinn on other hand i think perhaps have females

you say “a non of the jinn were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were.. ”

i understand you are saying “elite of elite” of angels helped in creation? (i dont think we are told in Quran about there being elite or elite of elite of angels... we cannot make such claim of there being elite or elites of elite)
and brother what makes you think that angels helped in creation of heavens and earth??
The earth and heavens (and everything else literally including angels, michael and gabriel) were created by The God alone
He does not mention anything about the angels taking part in creation when He describes creating the heavens and the earth (or anything else) I understand from the verse  you quoted that the jinn were not witness to creation of heavens and earth ie not present ... no mention or allusion to angels in the verse

also, what does it mean “elite” or “elite of elite” of angels? The God does not make clear to us that there is a distinction between angels being elite and non elite, or a distinction that we should know.
to my knowledge the only time He mentions a distinction between angles is in the following verse

All praise belongs to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth who has made the angels messengers of two or three or four wings. He increases the creation as He wills. The God has power over all things. [35, 1]

surah 37 verse 8  “They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side”
the above verse in my opinion does not make a distinction between angels (i may be wrong) but perhaps talks about all angels in general

(please verify all verses quoted)

to sum up my understand: angels are males, they did not help in creation of the heavens or earth or in creation of anything else (The God simply says Be and things are) and we are not aware of there being elite or non elite angels

peace

Peace Brother TF…
I am doing fine thanks to God..

First of all I brought the verses 18:50-51 to give support that Jinn is a physical creature.. You have not given any substantial support based on the verse if you in fact believe Djinn are a physical creature not fantasy..

All what you aimed was to negate my additional points…

‘Kaana’ in Arabic I absolutely get the meaning of ‘became’ as well… if you want to disapprove bring all the verses in which Kaana appears and disapprove… So for me Iblees definitely became from the status of Malak (not distinguished in daraja but just a malak) to mere a jinn…

Understanding of quran will be till graveyard I presume……but to read the complete quran on multiple occasion it won’t take that much time.. So I have read the complete quran on multiple occasions.. so, I am well aware about all the verses of quran before I write something in the forum… Don’t think I wrote without the knowledge of 37:150 & 43:19….

Carefully note the verses 37:150 and 43:19 … Are Malaika Males? … directly it doesn’t say.. Does it? But we are given knowledge to explore and compare verses… So we can deduce by above two verses in a way that are No females in Malaika.. One can still put an argument that there is still female Malaika.. if anyone claim let’s debate… Likewise 18:50-51 is carefully taken and understood by myself…. Within the context of those two verses… it is very much clear Iblees was a Malak… but at the same time he became  Jinn by having to go against God’s order.. God got rid of his status of being malak…So became a  Jinn.. If one says malak is just status not a physical creature.. Then why Iblees didn’t become to nothingness once stripped of his status..
At the same time in verse 18:51 God continues to elaborate… Not about Malaika…but about Jinn and about who mislead… God knows everything and everyone’s heart.. God knew at one point a malak named Iblees will sin and go against His order.. So in verse 18:51 God clearly within the context of the verse means in our comprehensive understanding like we took 37:150 and 43:19 to mean no Female, He never took the help of Jinn who went astray nor He needs their help in the Creation of Heavens and the Earth… Not even He showed the creation of their own… But God did take the help of Malaika in whom God kept trust and to whom He gave immense power… Though they are Jinn… That’s clear within the verse… Person to person may understand the verse differently… But for me Malaika are part of creation process… Yes God says kun and it is… But don’t forget creation took 6 days… it won’t take 6 days to say kun.. He say I created Adam by His both hands.. he could have said Kun instead… We didn’t feel tiredness or fatigue in the creation of heavens and earth.. 50:38… To say merely ‘Be’ God doesn’t want to say all the verses…. Kun in my understanding to give life to something created or to make plan come true or determine etc… I may be wrong … but my personal understanding..

Your next point Malaika having children… I have never mentioned that Malaika have children… Have I?
I said to prove that Every living creature reproduce not exempted Jinn…Definitely djinn reproduce to have multitude.. Do you think only one jinn on this earth? If not how they increased in numbers? That’s so simple.. God created Jinn well before human… In my total understanding even before the creation of Earth and Heavens.. Coz chosen jinn who are assigned as Malaika and even out of them some are in real High status… Jibreal Michael, and other mail… They are not same like all malaika… Note when the trumpet is blown with the will of God not all will go to a state of unconscious except few… and even when Satan duped Adam, he put two words you can become malak or immortal… even the verse you brought 35:1 … whatever the wings (for me real) are it shows God give preference to malak to malak.. for some two wing,  three or four …. These are clear distinction within malak…

Malaika has both genders I don’t know… coz no quran verses to comprehend… Most probably not coz all the status are given to Males be it jinn or human… Prophets.. Malaika messengers, so malaika being a status, I most probably go for the option that there is no female… But there are unknown creatures in the heaven… it is not must that Malak should marry another malak… Like a prophet not necessary to marry another prophet..
But within quran we cannot come to conclusion that Malaika marries or not having children or not and if they marry whom they marry… God knows.. Not relevant to this topic either…



Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on August 05, 2020, 09:33:53 PM
salam jkhan

i most definitely believe that malaika and jinn are actual creations and absolutely not fantasy

i do agree with you that perhaps iblis was a malaika and then when he disobeyed The God he was stripped from malaika status to that of jinn. i was merely saying that the berse says “he was” and not “he became
however i am not sure malaika is just a status as per my understanding, nothing in the Quran mentions that it is just a status

i very much disagree with you about creation. The God definately created existence by Himself, no question or doubt in that
and nothing in the Quran says otherwise
i think we definately should not start guessing especially about what concerns The God

"whoever is an enemy to The God, and His angels and His messengers, and jibreel and mikael - then, The God is an enemy of the disbelievers." (2, 98)

in the above verse, jibreel and mikael are mentioned separately from angels and as such in my opinion jibril and michael are perhaps not malaika

yes i believe that angels have literally different number of wings too, but whether that means difference in status i do not know, all i understand is that it is a difference in creation and The God increases in creation whom He wills

i cannot say that malak just means status, and i definately do not think that humans can also be malak (why would we think that? or why would we think malal is just a status?)

i alao understand that malaika are only males and definately no females

that was my understanding :)

anyways thanx for your reply

peace brother
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 11, 2020, 06:44:46 PM
Hope you are doing well. I have been searching for some answers in this forum I went eventually all the way back since the inception of this forum. I had the pleasure to read your articles and understanding of the cube and other important topics. There was an article that Wakas gave a link to, but i think the links dont work prior to 2003, so I was hoping you still had that artice. I'm not sure about the name of the article, but it was along the lines of the bond or commitment or contract between mankind and God. In the end I was looking answers regarding Hell fire (may we all be saved from that terrible pusnishment by our dear God).
If it's not too much, I was hoping you could answer my question of whether Hell is forever, and how it is justified. Please see my link:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611032.0
Thank you for your contribution/time.

Peace Enquiry,

I think the article about the trust might be somewhere on the forum. If it was written back in 2003 then my understanding probably evolved since then :)

I tried to answer your question about hell in your post.

Peace,

Ayman 
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: ayman on August 11, 2020, 07:15:55 PM
Peace Tutti Futti,

what do you mean angels (malak) is just a status?? a status given to whom?? and what makes you think that it is just a status?? 😊

Angel doesn't mean "malak". See 3:26 where "mlk" (controller/owner) is clearly a status that is given and can be taken away by the god. This is also the only way to explain how Iblis was a "malak" and then he lost this status when he disobeyed the god and didn't submit to humankind.

Quote
when The God tells the angels He wants to create humans on earth, to whom is He speaking??

He is speaking to various creatures to whom he gave control. Those creatures once they are given control are not considered part of the creatures in the heavens and the earth (see 16:49).

Quote
unless mistaken i remember there is a verse where The God says that the heavens will be filled with angels on judgement day ... what are these angels that will fill the heavens on the day of resurrection??

Those are controllers not "angels" wearing white and with halos over their head as in Christian mythology.

Quote
who will carry the throne of The God if not 8 angels??

The throne of the god is also on water (see 11:7) and it encompasses the heaven and the earth (see 2:255). In other words, the god's throne is on all water in the heavens and the earth. Everything alive is created from water. So everything alive carries the throne of the god. On the day of the account when everything is dead eight controllers will carry the throne.

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or in the following verse 5 of surah 45
“almost might the heavens above be rent asunder while the angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”
when The God says that angels seek forgiveness for those on earth... what do you think these angels are???

They are controllers who the god gave control to.

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my point, it is quite obvious that angels are separate creatures and the jinn as well
surah 34 verse 14
“Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.”
how does imagination even fit in the above verse?

The human imagination doesn't know the hidden side of the universe because it is not part of that hidden side (unlike controllers).

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jinn are made from fire, what does imagination being made of fire even mean??

Imagination is brainwaves, energy (symbolically fire).

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what makes you think that verse 3.26 is talking about angel as a status??? when i read the verse i understsnd quite clearly The God is speaking about anyone He gives sovereignty to which includes human kings, there is no mention of being about malaika

Whether human controller/owner on earth or controller/owner at the god, it is the same principal. Do you doubt that the god bestows "mlk"/control ownership on all and can take it away from any creature?

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again, what made you think angel is just a status?? and if it is a status, to whom is it given?? who are these creatures that are given such status???

Any creature the god wants.

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iblees is not a source of anything...
the only source of everything is The God
everything is from Him

The god is the source of all truth. He is not the source of falsehood. The human fantasy (jinn) is the only source of falsehood.

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also, unless mistaken, i remember there is a verse where The God said He created the human with his virtues and vices

Yes. Virtue is the ability to make our fantasy submit to us while vice is falling under the control of our fantasy.

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the devil makes false promises, lies about The God, misleads etc

Exactly, the out of control fantasy (devil) does all that. It is the only source of falsehood in the universe. 

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i understand the source of everything is The God, and only He permits things to exist (falsehood existing is a permission from Him as well)

Falsehood doesn't exist. Falsehood is just a fantasy. Whether we imagine the earth is flat or not this doesn't change the truth/reality. Whether we imagine that spinning 7 times around a cube in Mecca will wipe our sins and return us like newborn this will not change truth/reality.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Someone on August 14, 2020, 06:35:09 PM
Peace all,

From a previous discussion: WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.msg41678;topicseen#msg41678
 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.msg41678;topicseen#msg41678)

In 6:131, the word used is "al-ins" which is the singular form of "an-nass" present in 22:73, with the help of the verse 114:6, we can see this clearly.

Please note that "ins" is different from "insaane", and "jin" is different from "jaan" (as in 15:27). My view is that "ins" and "jin" are two psychological aspects of the humans "bashar", some humans are more enclined to the aspect "ins" thus called "insaane", the others are more enclined to the "jin" aspect and thus called "jaan".

It's hard to distinguish between those words when reading a translation because translators generally translate "ins" "annas" and "insaane" and "bashar" as the same, which is confusing and sometimes leads to contradictions.

In my view,
Insaan refers to an extrovert person that prefers to be in community with other persons, and mixes well in social situations. Insaan comes from root alif-noun-seen, which means to socialise. An-naas is the plural of al-insaane.

Jaan refers to an introvert or reserved person that prefers to be away from the crowd (and the eyes). Al-jinnatoo is the the plural of al-jaan.

All of us are made of the same basic components or atoms as mud, they are only arranged in different ways.

Bashar or homo sapiens is the species. When it acquires speech it becomes insaan or human.

Before the ability of speech,  human's thoughts were hidden or from the jin. After acquiring speech, humans become able to show some bits of their thoughts or hidden world to others.

At the same times, it was made possible to tell lies, which was impossible before.

You can think of these steps like the growing steps of a new born baby (bashar) until he starts saying some words around 2 yo and making sentences around 4-5yo. This is where the kid's Ego develops making him aware of himself. This process took surely much more time before, and was a paradigm in human evolution.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 17, 2020, 04:05:44 AM
The imagination is a very powerful tool. It is used by tricksters, fraudsters, and con artists.

I agree lot of tricksters, fraudsters, con-artist, astrologer, palmist etc use different tools including fakery of showing something whats not true but its a trick/illusion of eye example like david copperfield in the field of magic and some ancient characters like samree and the magicians with pharoah.

BUT tricking someone and telling facts what is shocking are two different things as i know how that works. its one of my interesting topic of discussion in my case due to curiousity i been to that specific person once again with some of my friends to see once again becoz thats the only one person in my life what was not tricking but telling facts each and everysingle time whoever visits him.

Second time one of our friends CAR got stolen and he wanted to ask where is the car.

When we visit and we are 5 people in total he write something in paper in which he write the model of car, color of car, what time that get stolen, the purpose of visit etc. Without even we told anything to him. Everyone get shocked too before that they were making fun and was thinking i m just taking them to a random guy.

When someone do tricks they have their explaination how they do it but it was not a trick like vanishing a piece of cloth in circus magic it was something that make u think.

People claim it was the BEING jinn who is working as associate with them in that specific cases.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Fadiva on August 18, 2020, 10:10:47 AM
BUT tricking someone and telling facts what is shocking are two different things as i know how that works. its one of my interesting topic of discussion in my case due to curiousity i been to that specific person once again with some of my friends to see once again becoz thats the only one person in my life what was not tricking but telling facts each and everysingle time whoever visits him.

Peace Imran,

Can't we imagine the complicity of one or several persons here ? Can't be the people who visit him already "conditioned" ?


Second time one of our friends CAR got stolen and he wanted to ask where is the car.

When we visit and we are 5 people in total he write something in paper in which he write the model of car, color of car, what time that get stolen, the purpose of visit etc. Without even we told anything to him. Everyone get shocked too before that they were making fun and was thinking i m just taking them to a random guy.

Can't it be possible that he heard you talking about the being stolen before ? Can't it be an accomplice or several even from one of your freind ?

When someone do tricks they have their explaination how they do it but it was not a trick like vanishing a piece of cloth in circus magic it was something that make u think.

People claim it was the BEING jinn who is working as associate with them in that specific cases.

It is people claim like you said and we know that people can say lies. Did you ask him ? Did he tell you he is working with a jin ? ( knowing he can lie about the how)

I mean it's important to ask questions to eliminate possibilities and not conclude directly to magic.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 18, 2020, 02:37:26 PM
Peace fadiva,

Read my first post what i wrote few days ago, perhaps you understand then.

That person i am talking about was miles away from our home city and how possibly he can hear anything when before even we tell him anything he infront of us write it down while he was writing he act like hes hearing from someone the voice what we all cant hear but he can.

When he finished writing then he fold that paper and give it to one of us and then je asked why u came here, the guy just told him someone stole his car then he said ok thats enough now you can open the paper what i ve given you and all details were already there, like color of car, model and make, exact time of event when car get stole.

And it was my second visit to him my first visit u can read in my post perhaps u understand, the only thing whats interesting is there is a difference between tricks and cracking of magic tricks and telling someone facts which is not possible for a stranger to know.

I am saying it only becoz i didnot hear from someone but its my own first hand witness experience. Twice he surprised me.

Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Fadiva on August 20, 2020, 03:52:21 PM
Peace imrankhawaja,

You wrote 3 weeks ago:

I quote: "Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.

What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?"


And a few days ago, I quote:

"BUT tricking someone and telling facts what is shocking are two different things as i know how that works. its one of my interesting topic of discussion in my case due to curiousity i been to that specific person once again with some of my friends to see once again becoz thats the only one person in my life what was not tricking but telling facts each and everysingle time whoever visits him.

Second time one of our friends CAR got stolen and he wanted to ask where is the car.

When we visit and we are 5 people in total he write something in paper in which he write the model of car, color of car, what time that get stolen, the purpose of visit etc. Without even we told anything to him. Everyone get shocked too before that they were making fun and was thinking i m just taking them to a random guy.

When someone do tricks they have their explaination how they do it but it was not a trick like vanishing a piece of cloth in circus magic it was something that make u think.

People claim it was the BEING jinn who is working as associate with them in that specific cases. " Unquote





Sometimes we can't remember well: was that specific person you told you he is helped by a jin or people ? Both ?

The fisrt time he told you directly the things (what I understood) and the second time he prefered to write...why ?

I quote an extract of your message:" i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too."

What is shocking about saying there is another relation ? Which is something quite woolly/vague.

Knowing your name  and the purpose of your visite ( if precise) seems to be impressive.

But we don't have the details of what hapenned and our brain can focus on a few things and forget or not even notice other things, tha's why it can be deceived.

At the end did this man tell you were was the stolen car ( if asked) ?
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on September 23, 2020, 09:02:38 AM
Salam!
Brother Aymen, I am trying to translate 7:27 according to you definition of jinn, i.e., fantasy/imagination/falsehood. Please help:
“O Children of Adam! Let not Shaytan/fantasy/imagination/ falsehood deceive you, as he/it got your parents out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their private parts. Verily, he/its and Qabiluhu/its tribes/its different types "see" you from where you "cannot see" them.” [7:27]
How come our fantasies/ imaginations/ falsehood can see humans but humans cannot see them?
Peace!
Title: Remote Viewing
Post by: Jafar on September 23, 2020, 06:29:36 PM
BUT tricking someone and telling facts what is shocking are two different things as i know how that works. its one of my interesting topic of discussion in my case due to curiousity i been to that specific person once again with some of my friends to see once again becoz thats the only one person in my life what was not tricking but telling facts each and everysingle time whoever visits him.

Second time one of our friends CAR got stolen and he wanted to ask where is the car.

When we visit and we are 5 people in total he write something in paper in which he write the model of car, color of car, what time that get stolen, the purpose of visit etc. Without even we told anything to him. Everyone get shocked too before that they were making fun and was thinking i m just taking them to a random guy.

When someone do tricks they have their explaination how they do it but it was not a trick like vanishing a piece of cloth in circus magic it was something that make u think.

People claim it was the BEING jinn who is working as associate with them in that specific cases.

Judgmental people often too quick to judge, especially on the things that they don't know, a sign of their own ignorance actually...

If we met people who are living in 1400 years ago mindset, they will also say that there are jinns that's speaking through the small box, upon seeing other people talking to each others using a cell phone. No knowledge about electricity, electro magnetism or radio frequency.  :rotfl:

When we don't know it's better to honestly admit we don't know rather than believe on something or making a baseless claim, let alone forcing their believe and claim upon others.  :rotfl:
Because when we admit we don't know, then knowing will become a possibility....
When we invested an effort and time to study it...

Back to the 'special person' that's being mentioned here..
There is a 'technology' called Remote Viewing.
It's a 'natural technology' that can be learned and there are some people who were born with this capability naturally..
It's now commonly used by intelligence agencies, as it's a great way to spy.
I read somewhere a paper by CIA on this technique as it has been declassified, you can search it further.

And the good news is you can learn it too! if you want, and have the strong will and dedication to do so.
So it's not 'exclusive only to special person chosen by God' or let alone 'only jinn can do it'...
An introduction on the technique: https://www.psychicgurus.org/how-to-remote-view/

Yes it can also work not only to 'different place' but also 'different time', as time and space is one dimension.
As for the time, it work well to the 'past' but 'future' is quite blurry... as it seems the future is a probabilistic vortex.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: amin on September 24, 2020, 09:26:00 PM
Imran,

Still on the stolen car?, yes here too we have many people claiming to do such things, they will put some black ink on a betel leaf and claim to see the stolen things, only with their eyes and get money or gifts for their service.

Its all some imagination and prior preparation to amaze innocent gullible people, like the magic shows we see on TV. Now a days any information is accessible right in our hands and people could take with just within seconds. The thing amazing is how well they are able to hide the way from others knowing those techniques.

here in our place long back they call magic shows by the name "eye hiding shows" and not Magic.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 26, 2020, 07:05:18 AM
Guys @ jaffar, amin, fadiva,

Hope u all doing well.

Lets clear it first, whenever i try to precise the posts i ll have to explain it again for details so bare with me in this long post as it appears its gona be long lol.

Part 1ST about that character
Part 2nd about that interesting topic we didnt do the justice what that topic deserved.

Part 1st.


When i was 8 or 9 nine years old first time in my life i heard about that person.
My uncle lost his diamond RING and it was joint family system. So they decided to visit someone who can tell them who stole it..

My mom was also with that my uncle and aunts. He correctly told them who stole it and amazingly upon asking from that person he acknowledges it.

Second part of the same story my mom was makin a decision in her heart that she will not gona come again to these places again and shockingly he said to my mom i know you will not come at this place again. (at that time my mom was thinking its against islam to seek help other than God lol)

Then few years later my cuz lost his phone and he identify the person again.

Now about me i had interest in all those things since i was kid i e magic, jinns, supernatural etc. Will discuss it in second part..

Then when i lost my phone and i been to him for the first time.
Second time my frd lost his car. @ fadiva both of the times he write it down before even asking us the purpose of visit. Thats his method that applied to all the visitors.

Its not my believe or claim but people claimed he got JINN or MOKILS.
About me i m still admitting as jafar said i really dont know how he knew all of that and incase anyone can know all of that in my 37 yrs life he was the only person who amaze me the way he tell things. On top of that i dnt really know what is the source of his information..

Adding some things to jafar words i tend to agree at some point of jafar coz few years ago i heard he stopped doing that anymore due to a reason police wanted to ask from him about a robbery and he refused to help as he dnt want to involve in gov matters so the police beat him up badly thats the last i hear about him many years ago.


2nd Part


Guys i know the difference between magic, circus magic, tricks, illusions and also how they works due to my interest in those things i myself knows some tricks with playing cards and some other things what make people amaze and they think i m some kind of magician. But in relaity i know its not really magic its the trick what i did with their eyes my hands so dam quick to show them what i want to show them or make them think what i want to make them think and also it took a lot of practise before u can confident to do it.i also learned it from someone else.

David copperfield do the same at more advance level.

Magician in circus do the same

Lot of con artist do the same

Lot of fake BABA do the same

And interestingly i already know how all that works.

@amin these two situations are different.

@jafar thanks for the link i will go into it as it appears i still did not crack how all it happened.

I m just touching the PAST part of topic this topic also need a FUTURE part some claimed to do that too but i think its better to move step by step.
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: herbman on October 06, 2020, 05:30:30 AM
Hello and Peace,

Your topic made me thinking about one question, more or less related to it.

Do you (or someone) know:
- who created Jenna and Jahanam (Paradise and Hell) according to The Noble Quran, please provide the verse?

Thanks

A friend
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on October 06, 2020, 11:12:35 AM
salam

only The God can create. nothing and no else can create. ao obviously He created everything including paradise and hell.

but if you meed verses well we are also told He that created everything (7:54) so everything includes everything (paradise and hell included)

we are told in 18:102 that God prepared hell for the disbelievers

in any case only The God has power over creation and power to create

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: herbman on October 07, 2020, 07:00:40 AM
Hi,

My thought is the following:

Could be Humans are creating their own "Haven" or "Hell" based on their deeds.

Peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: tutti_frutti on October 07, 2020, 07:17:20 AM
salam

my take:

humans do not create their own havens/heaven or hell

God creates

humans are given permission by God to either  submit to Him willingly or reject (but in fine submit even if unwillingly on day of judgment)

those who strive in their worship of Him and do good deeds may perhaps hope for paradise God willing and they will have what their souls wish for as per my understanding

God gave His creation a very straightforward system... strive in your worship of Him !

those who reject even if they do good deeds are destined to hell as per my understanding and hell i believe is the earth

my point is we do not create anything we just strive and hope for His mercy..

peace
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: huruf on October 08, 2020, 05:28:18 AM
Hi,

My thought is the following:

Could be Humans are creating their own "Haven" or "Hell" based on their deeds.

Peace
I agree with that, we generate the consequences, the results of our deeds and ommissions. The word create, using it in a language other than the Qur'an is confusing, because we understand many things by create, and there are many words in the Qur'an that are translated equally by create, so we get carried in the debate of who can create or not and the fact is that we may be talking about different things.

If we create our deeds so that hey cause misfortune and anger, we will find that, that will be our hell, that is the mizan which rules absolutely all existence.

Salaam
Title: Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
Post by: Jafar on October 09, 2020, 03:30:33 AM
My thought is the following:

Could be Humans are creating their own "Haven" or "Hell" based on their deeds.

Every soul shall be attracted to the realms which matches with his/her personality...

Just like listening to radio station, but there is NOT ONLY 2 radio stations, there are many, hundreds, thousands, millions or perhaps unlimited.
And those who like Jazz shall tune out to the jazz radio station. those who like stand up comedy will tune to the comedy station and so on...

A realm where there's no chance of dominating and enslaving others, no possibility of invading or making a war with others might not be too interesting for a warlord.
He / she will be tuned in to the realm where there's ample opportunity to enslave people, warring with someone and do the things he / she loved the most and experiencing the things that he / she loved the most. (#hate, #fear, #pride)

A realm where there are enslavement of 72 virgins might not be considered as "Heaven" for a human rights activist. He / she will consider it as "Hell", he / she will either leave the realm or try to change the realm by trying to free all enslaved virgins. If it's actually the experience of 'freeing enslaved person' is an experience which actually he / she desire the most.

In the end, everybody will get what they wish for...