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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Wanderer on June 21, 2020, 11:35:12 AM

Title: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 21, 2020, 11:35:12 AM
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: good logic on June 21, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
Peace Wanderer.
17:36 is asking us to seek knowledge/verify things before we accept them as facts/truth. i.e to seek knowledge about things we do not know.:(To use our faculties for checking information.

You shall not accept any information, unless you  seek knowledge about/verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

18:4-5 is saying "they have not used 17:36 and if they did, they would not be saying it:

And to warn those who said, "God has begotten a son!"
وَيُنذِرَ الَّذينَ قالُوا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ وَلَدًا
They possess no knowledge about this, nor did their parents. What a blasphemy coming out of their mouths! What they utter is a gross lie.
ما لَهُم بِهِ مِن عِلمٍ وَلا لِـٔابائِهِم كَبُرَت كَلِمَةً تَخرُجُ مِن أَفوٰهِهِم إِن يَقولونَ إِلّا كَذِبًا

i.e they are saying this "without knowledge" only accepting/ following wrong information without checking it.
So it agrees with 17:36 and validates it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 21, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
Salam good logic.

Thank you for your reply. I do not, however, find it satisfying. Like I said, regarding religious beliefs, it is impossible to have any knowledge. Christians believe the Gospels out of faith, because they were not there 2000 years ago to witness and verify the events described to them. They must have faith because they cannot have knowledge. Just like Muslims of today are not there to verify the revelation of the Qur'an to Muhammad and cannot be said to have any more knowledge than their Christian contemporaries. Muslims and Christians seek knowledge in the exact same way - through Scripture. So I believe my question still stands.

Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: good logic on June 21, 2020, 03:50:54 PM
Peace Wanderer.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: jkhan on June 21, 2020, 10:49:47 PM
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace

I am glad I am back in this forum and hope someone would benefit … also glad having to go duty and get back on track….. wish you all same and better future….

Dear Wanderer…
I think you are in a little confusion but seems strangled in that little confusion… “Ilm” Knowledge is something to seek by exploration and verification….Knowledge is a gift from God …. That’s why we ask from God to increase our knowledge… we don’t ask to increase unless it is truth…. Knowledge is truth…
First be neutral when you are not aware or confused….If you are not aware or confused, that means you have no specific knowledge on it to be certain… If you give weight to something while in confusion then that looks true to you… Be neutral while you read my response…
22:8 “And of the people is he who disputes about God without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book
Above verse clarifies that to dispute or talk about God three key factors are required…based on that they can debate or talk or dispute… Can’t they? Yes.. They can..
Let me turn to your concerned verses…
** 17:36 “And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.”
Do you accept the above verse (17:36) in general? Whether you accept or not… what is intelligent way for human being to speak… That’s with knowledge… Knowledge comes with effort and dedication… That’s what we all believe … but as per God He gives it… all incorporated…
So above verse is so common in everything we do …. Pursue with what you have knowledge….that leads to success… regardless of aspect…

Your next verse…compared with above is 18:4-5  “and to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son'; they have no knowledge of it, they nor their fathers; a monstrous word it is, issuing out of their mouths; they say nothing but a lie.”

About whom the above verse is? About God…leave the Jesus aside.. It’s about God.. while the verse 17:36 is general instruction… Key word used to denote is “DON’T PURSUE” …

Okay let me ask you simple question to simplify this further…
Do you have KNOWLEDGE about yourself more or I have more knowledge about you? That’s pretty obvious….
God says about God… God speaks out about God …. Does God know about Himself more or those who say that God has begotten a son?  How come these people know more than God? And that also about God they know better than God Himself?

That’s why God says “Warn” … “They have no knowledge about IT”… Of course they have no knowledge… it’s mere guess work out of curiosity and what their forefathers were keep guessing…
Doesn’t God know about God? Why they want to give a child to God while God doesn’t have a child? From where they got this KNOWLEDGE? How can it be a knowledge which has no proof? Lies are not knowledge even how high or how true they may look or even how well it is written and documented…. Knowledge is based on mere truth….Truth is knowledge.. knowing the truth will expose the lies… That’s common to Christians or muslims or anyone… 17:36 is perfect for anyone to follow if needs clarity..

So.. Dear Wanderer…18:4-5 was their imagination in total blindness without KNOWLEDGE without GUIDANCE without ENLIGHTENING BOOK 22:8 …. They have no base….Unfortunately People followed them.. So… if in any scripture/s in which it is written God has taken a Son then it is a big lie… it is the duty of the person who believe such book/s to verify how the God can have a son and why? If God has a son how can He be One?
Even Quran explore and verify… 17:36 is not exempted to verify quran as well… why to believe in quran just coz people say it is from God…
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 22, 2020, 06:54:30 AM
Salam jkhan

Okay, so let me see if I follow your argument, more or less (it seems a bit jumbled to me). To speak about God we need knowledge OR guidance OR an enlightening book (or possibly all). That's fine, but not really the subject of my question.
Then you say that God knows Himself better than we do. Quite logical, no argument there. For us to know God, God needs to tell us about Himself, in some way. By book, inspiration, experience, whatever. Of course.

Neither of these points answer my question.

Neither belief in the Qur'an (stating that Jesus is not the son of God), nor the Gospels (stating, more or less indirectly, that Jesus is the son of God - of course, one can always argue whether or not such passages should be taken metaphorically, how they should be interpreted etc.) is KNOWLEDGE. Both are FAITH. Actually, your point works well here, although possibly not the way you intended it to: we, as humans, in my opinion, can never KNOW anything about God. We can BELIEVE certain things in one way or another, but we can never KNOW. We can never see, hear, observe, measure or in any other way gather objective data about God. Jesus may well be the Son of God. He may also not be. There's absolutely no way of KNOWING. So, why is the 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) Christians derive from the Bible, stating Jesus to be the son of God, WRONG, while the exact same type of 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) through scripture that Muslims derive from the Qur'an, GOOD?
Does 'ilm denote a different type of knowledge than what I'm referring to? And if so, how is the 'ilm of the Christians different from the 'ilm of the Muslims?

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: good logic on June 22, 2020, 08:14:20 AM
Peace Wanderer.
 I hope you do not mind me coming back to clarify about "ilm"- knowledge-?
"Ilm" is all the information we learn in our life.
All knowledge is from GOD. Even Malaika acknowledge that." La Ilm Lana Illa Ma Allamtana".
17:36 is asking us to make sure the "ilm" we learn is checked by our given faculties.
In the case of those who say" GOD has begoetten a son", whether it is faith or knowledge, where have they got this information from? And have they checked it:?
Did GOD say it/teach it? Where?
Is it evidenced/proven "Ilm"? Where?

So where in their scripture does it say "GOD has begotten a son"?
They have no knowledge about it being true from GOD. It is fabricated.
There is no contradiction or issue with both context of the verses you are checking in this regard.
Of course it is my understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: jkhan on June 22, 2020, 08:28:30 AM
Salam jkhan

Okay, so let me see if I follow your argument, more or less (it seems a bit jumbled to me). To speak about God we need knowledge OR guidance OR an enlightening book (or possibly all). That's fine, but not really the subject of my question.
Then you say that God knows Himself better than we do. Quite logical, no argument there. For us to know God, God needs to tell us about Himself, in some way. By book, inspiration, experience, whatever. Of course.

Neither of these points answer my question.

Neither belief in the Qur'an (stating that Jesus is not the son of God), nor the Gospels (stating, more or less indirectly, that Jesus is the son of God - of course, one can always argue whether or not such passages should be taken metaphorically, how they should be interpreted etc.) is KNOWLEDGE. Both are FAITH. Actually, your point works well here, although possibly not the way you intended it to: we, as humans, in my opinion, can never KNOW anything about God. We can BELIEVE certain things in one way or another, but we can never KNOW. We can never see, hear, observe, measure or in any other way gather objective data about God. Jesus may well be the Son of God. He may also not be. There's absolutely no way of KNOWING. So, why is the 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) Christians derive from the Bible, stating Jesus to be the son of God, WRONG, while the exact same type of 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) through scripture that Muslims derive from the Qur'an, GOOD?
Does 'ilm denote a different type of knowledge than what I'm referring to? And if so, how is the 'ilm of the Christians different from the 'ilm of the Muslims?

Peace

Dear Wanderer...

What GL had explained is giving much sense in my understanding and I wonder why you failed to grasp..

Look.. Your concern was 17:36 and 18:4-5... You felt like both contradict.. Is it?

I responded within my understanding of Quran...
But now you expand your concern...
Since you brought Quranic verses I go within Quran...
First as per Quran  God taught human.. Yeah not only human almost all living being.. For example even to Malaika God taught..
That's part of knowledge.. But still God keep on teaching us with knowledge.. That we don't perceive God is behind it.. Same way God guides us that we don't perceive it..
So since the verses gave concern to you let's adhere to Quran..
Your concern now "We don't know about God anything" but we only believe...so we have no knowledge..so how to pursue God.. No.. No.. That's not right logic within Quran.. We know about God.. We have knowledge about God as much as He has explained taught.. Belief is based on knowledge.. .. But not guidance.. Guidance can be even without knowledge.. That's God's business..
God says about Himself many a thing in Quran.. So that's our God.. We can't say we don't know..
Definitely there is a fact that is other side of knowledge.. That's  "No knowledge"....
So when there is no knowledge it is not worthy acting as having knowledge.. That's worse.. Coz knowledge is truth and not lies.. We seek knowledge.. That means we seek truth.. Not we seek lies.. We don't see God.. So no knowledge..

What went wrong to those in 18:4-5 they remained as they have knowledge while they have no knowledge... They didn't accept that there is something called "NO Knowledge"

Why did malaika said to God " we have no knowledge other than what you taught " that's honesty.. Coz they accepted they are restricted with knowledge.. All knowing is God only... Did they try to act like they know what was taught to Adam.. Will not God know then malaika Lieing..

Simply God is behind knowledge...
God gives knowledge as He wishes..  And God guides as He wishes... And God reminded with books ... These are the faculty of knowing reaching to God...  That's why I always believed that QURAN is not the only source for salvation.. But above three altogether OR even individually.. ... If one didn't get salvation by his knowledge or guidance or books then  shame on him.. Others are destined by God's word...

Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Layth on June 22, 2020, 08:45:19 AM
Dear Wanderer,

I think I get your question, but it seems more philosophical than practical. To have “knowledge” without speaking to God directly means you have to first have “faith” in that which you are seeking the knowledge from.

So, for a Muslim to seek knowledge about God, he/she would first have to accept the Quran on faith or empirical evidence or a combination of both.

Reason and logic can be used as support tools - but there is always difficulty doing this when we speak of things unseen by human eyes.

Can God have a son? Of course He can if He had decided to do so. However, the book we have accepted tells us categorically that the answer is ‘ no’.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 22, 2020, 01:17:19 PM
Salam good logic.

I appreciate your elaborations. I still, however, feel that they fail to answer my question. You said:
17:36 is asking us to make sure the "ilm" we learn is checked by our given faculties.
In the case of those who say" GOD has begoetten a son", whether it is faith or knowledge, where have they got this information from? And have they checked it:?
Did GOD say it/teach it? Where?
Is it evidenced/proven "Ilm"? Where?

So where in their scripture does it say "GOD has begotten a son"?
They have no knowledge about it being true from GOD. It is fabricated.

How do you suppose Muslims are able to verify the truth of the Qur'an through their given faculties any more than Christians? We cannot perceive God. Thus, we cannot 'verify' anything when it comes to these things. They get their information from the Bible, which they believe to be true. Is there any way to objectively and definitively prove that the Gospels and their narrative on Jesus isn't true? No. We can ask Muslims the same: where do you get your information from? The answer would be the Qur'an. Have you checked it? No. How could they?

To clarify, my issue here is the fact that the Qur'an seems to indicate that we can somehow 'verify' in some objective way or other that Jesus was not the son of God, or generally that God does not have offspring. But we cannot. And it makes no sense to me that God would berate the Christians because they have not 'verified' their information, and thus have no 'knowledge'. We cannot verify the truth of various statements of the Qur'an, just as Christians cannot verify various statements of the Bible, among those the status of Jesus as the son of God.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 22, 2020, 01:27:10 PM
Salam Layth

It is philosophical, in a sense. But it is also related to these specific verses in the Qur'an which, in my understanding, seem to contradict. As you say, having 'knowledge' of anything we cannot perceive is difficult, if not impossible.
So, in my opinion, it becomes a contradiction that God is angry at the Christians for not having 'knowledge' of something they cannot possibly have any knowledge of because it happened hundreds (now thousands) of years ago, which is why they rely on faith. However, no such anger is directed at, say, the Jews for following a Torah stating various things that they cannot possibly have any knowledge of, and so, once again, faith is necessary. Same goes for Muslims.
Why is it okay for Jews or Muslims to rely on faith, but not Christians? It is illogical to me.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 22, 2020, 01:59:22 PM
Salam everyone

I believe I have found an answer to my question after further research and analysis. Thank you for your input all of you.

God bless you

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: good logic on June 22, 2020, 02:12:52 PM
Peace Wanderer.
Dp you mind sharing your answer?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: jkhan on June 22, 2020, 10:52:54 PM


Why is it okay for Jews or Muslims to rely on faith, but not Christians? It is illogical to me.



I wonder you would ever respond in this forum again… I sense you won’t since you have found answer all of a sudden…

Anyway… ‘FAITH’ is not complete… Faith can completely overturn a person if what he or she kept faith on is lie… Faith has no evidence or proof… In court there is no value for ‘Faith’…

But Faith is vital or rather imperative in life in any aspect … Believing in God is Faith but not proof…. What is proof is what is incontrovertible… How it becomes incontrovertible is through study and research and comparison and verification and debate and in a state of being convinced … Knowledge plays a role here…

Your concern.. Jews and Muslim faith one God and why Christians cannot have faith of God has son… Faith is not at all an issue… But can we live only in faith? Then it is just blindness…
Note what God said to Messenger..
25:32 “And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly.”

God knew Prophet did keep ‘Faith’ on God…. But faith won’t last if God doesn’t strengthen his heart… What is strengthening heart may mean… You can’t just get convinced just passing time or with the time… But need certain things to cultivate within a person to get convinced why he or she kept ‘Faith’ on something… So faith is not adamant trust or blindness with the time… such faith is just for the sake of existence and showoff and lip service… Faith should turn into a concrete proof…

If the ‘Faith’ of Christians (God is trinity or god has begotten a son) has given them a concrete proof then it is up to them what they claim… Proof is not something what one says or claims but what it convinces the knowledgeable to their knowledge who is neutral… But God told the truth in Torah that He is One.. and He told He is One in Quran… And He claims He sent Torah and Quran… So it is the duty of Christians to explore and get proofs rather than just remaining only in mere faith which has no value …. Coz Same God claims He is One and same God claims He sent Torah and Quran… Same God Claims for Jesus He sent Injeel… Are Torah and Quran lies or Bible contradicts?.. That’s worth research for them if they are interested… or remain in Faith level forever…

So dear… Believers are not on merely based on ‘Faith’ but thorough exploration to give meaning to their faith… Be them Jews, Christians or anyone they all are successful who stepped through from mere Faith level to Proof level…
Faith is not always true in any aspect… Faith is just a step…

So ‘Faith’ and ‘Proof’ are two interrelated matters but faith alone is nothing but just individual’s choice at will or by birth …. 


Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Someone on June 26, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace

Peace Wanderer,

I think it is a healthy habit to question any and every assertion encountered during our life, from where ever it may come, even from the gospel or the quran. In fact and in reality, no thing nor any person or any concept or idea is sacred, it all can be questioned and criticized for their value and benefit.

This is a strong foundation to build your system on -- Do not consider any thing as sacred -- all our knowledge, books, ideas about the creator god, countries, religions, organisations... all are constructions in human mind, no real link to Reality. As per science, we can sense only 5% of what is really existing, using all our scientific might. So how can anyone claim knowledge of anything?

Also, the creator of this universe is way beyond what we may think of him. BUT, with our experience in this life, we trust him to bring back the sun the next day according to his laws, and we trust him for keeping enough air for everyone to breath, again according to his natural laws, and we trust him to let us wake the next morning after a good night sleep... we trust the creator for many critical things... And the creator doesn't need our faith or trust, but we need to trust him, as the creator is the only constant in existence, all else is in a transitory state. 

His open book, accessible for everyone and in every period, is the book of this creation, written according to his law, for everyone to see and to learn from. But most of us fall into human fantasies and live confused.
 
So yes, you can question any thing, even the quran. And if doesn't stand scrutiny, then dump it and look elsewhere.

I hope this helps. If so, I can give you the second principle to live in peace.

 :peace:
 

 
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 27, 2020, 05:37:37 AM
Salam good logic.

Certainly. I read a few commentaries on the verse (as I usually do when I seem to fail to reach a satisfactory understanding by myself) and found Muhammad Asad's take on it to be a reasonable explanation that solved my issue for now. Asad argues that the pronoun that is usually taken to refer to the concept of God having a son in 18:4 (ma lahum biHI min 'ILMIN) actually refers to God, so that the verse is better rendered as 'they have no knowledge of Him (God)'. Perhaps I will take issue with this interpretation as well as I reflect on it more, but for now, it satisfies me.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 27, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
Salam jkhan

Brother, I do not understand why you need to write so passive aggressively. Your replies to me (what I gather from them) do not answer my question - it has nothing to do with my ability to 'grasp' your response or the like. I think our perspectives on faith, the Qur'an etc. are quite different, and we seem to be in different places in our spiritual journeys. I, for my part, can't help but question everything. It's an inherent part of me, and, I believe, an essential and very important part of our existence and our journey towards some sort of spiritual understanding or enlightenment. I do not believe what is in the Qur'an, simply because it is in the Qur'an. I believe what is in the Qur'an only IF I find it to be logical, consistent, reasonable, universal and demonstrating a wisdom and knowledge that I find to be consistent with One who created all, knows all, and is the Most Wise of all. I've been studying the Qur'an for years, but have not yet come to the conclusion that it is, in its entirety, divine. I keep questioning, and whenever something strikes me, I examine it from as many angles as I can think of, to gain new and great insights. Maybe one day I will have uncovered an understanding of the Qur'an that compels me to accept it as the Book of God. But I will never stop asking questions. To take a Qur'anic example: If he had not been willing to question his own beliefs time and time again and think critically, what would Ibrahim have spent his life on? Which celestial object would he have ended up serving?

Peace brother
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 27, 2020, 06:08:16 AM
Salam Someone

Yes, I agree with you, and you seem to understand where I'm coming from. Lack of critical thinking because something is too sacred, too taboo, too culturally ingrained, or because 'that's just the way this Holy Book/this culture/these people say it is, who am I to question it', is one of the reasons great evils are allowed to happen at the hands of man. Of course, one shouldn't swerve from one extreme to the other - rely on science and logic and scrutinize your own beliefs sincerely once in a while to see if they really stick. Chances are, you won't be able to go too far off track then.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: good logic on June 27, 2020, 07:01:42 AM
Peace Wanderer..
Thanks for sharing.

For me, I agree that  you should find your answers by yourself,regardless Qoran instructs the reader/student to ponder its words thouroughly.
 Your life, your journey and your accountability. I encourage you to carry on and persevere in choosing/investigating your own journey.
Best of luck in your studies brother..
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: Wanderer on June 27, 2020, 07:23:08 AM
Salam good logic

I try to do exactly that - ponder the words of the Qur'an thoroughly. Since it invites me to think, reflect and ask questions, it should (by its own logic) stand thorough scrutiny. So far, every question I've had has had an answer. It has been a hard but interesting journey. Time will tell where my search leads me. I appreciate your words brother. God bless.

Peace
Title: Re: Qur'an 17:36
Post by: jkhan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:46 AM
Salam good logic.

Certainly. I read a few commentaries on the verse (as I usually do when I seem to fail to reach a satisfactory understanding by myself) and found Muhammad Asad's take on it to be a reasonable explanation that solved my issue for now. Asad argues that the pronoun that is usually taken to refer to the concept of God having a son in 18:4 (ma lahum biHI min 'ILMIN) actually refers to God, so that the verse is better rendered as 'they have no knowledge of Him (God)'. Perhaps I will take issue with this interpretation as well as I reflect on it more, but for now, it satisfies me.

Peace

Peace.. Wanderer..
Happy to see you still wandering here...
If you don't understand me,  it's not my fault.. If someone understands who has same issue like you then he or she would ponder...

Look dear... Really what you research is the way.. Keep it up... Till God open the doors to you... But ensure you not remain in doubt forever.. That's not guidance... Even you researched for life.. .

Unfortunately you failed to grasp... I answered you in reply # 04..thats what you say asad articles has clarified you and for now you are satisfied... That's how you suddenly said I found answer and almost let us feel you are leaving the forum.. After all what you have found I have replied in reply #04..
.

That's why I told in reply # 04 verse talks about God.. And leave Jesus aside...

But you definitely sounded in your thread that what is wrong if Christians claim God has a son... For that you will never have knowledge even you try rest of your life...
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