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Community Needs => Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) => Topic started by: Wakas on March 28, 2020, 03:57:07 AM

Title: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 28, 2020, 03:57:07 AM
peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 28, 2020, 04:58:48 AM
Peace Wakas.
I do not agree with "DULUK Al Shams" in verse 17:78 being translated as "sunset". here quote:

17:78 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...

Sunset in Arabic is "Maghrib Al Shams"

Please provide your evidence for this?
 Here is another translation that disagrees with yours :
17:78
You shall observe the Salat when the sun declines from its highest point ( noon), as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
This is not sunset itself?
GOD bless you.
Peace.:
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 28, 2020, 05:40:41 AM
peace GL,

Quote
I do not agree with "DULUK Al Shams" in verse 17:78 being translated as "sunset"

See Lane's Lexicon (http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran_files/image006.jpg) for the evidence.

Sunset in Arabic is "Maghrib Al Shams"

"maghrib al shams" means "the setting place/time of the sun", see here (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html) for explanation.

Quote
Here is another translation that disagrees with yours :

What a certain translation says is irrelevant. What matters is the evidence. I have already covered this in the article which you seemingly have read and thus have responded to in this thread.
In any case, is it your view that you perform one salat from noon to sunset (e.g. approx 6 hours in the UK where you reside)?

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 28, 2020, 05:49:20 AM
 Peace Wakas.

the lexicon in the link you gave also has"declined" as meaning . The sun starts to decline from its highest point at noon. Why do you only take sunset ?
 Actually the sun declining could give at least one timing while the sun is still above the horizon as well as other timings while it carries on declining towards the night.
Therefore what you gave is not conclusive evidence that the timing is 100% correct in  your translation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 28, 2020, 06:35:40 AM
peace GL,

the lexicon in the link you gave also has"declined" as meaning . The sun starts to decline from its highest point at noon. Why do you only take sunset ?

The understanding in the article is the only one that provides perfect coherence. The challenge has been given: find a flaw/error. If all you have is word X can theoretically mean something else in a lexicon then fair enough, but that's not a flaw/error.

Let's see what happens when we go with what you are proposing...

Quote
Actually the sun declining could give at least  one timing while the sun is still above the horizon as well as other timings while it carries on declining towards the night.

So your position is:
1) the singular salat refers to multiple salat
2) Quran explicitly says: X to/ila Y which you break up into parts and claim multiple salat. Do you also do the same for ablution in 5:6 when Quran says wash from hand to/ila elbow, you break it up and only wash parts from hand to elbow? Utter nonsense.
3) provides no time-ranges for each concocted salat whatsoever

As I said the understanding in the article is the only one that I have seen which respects the Arabic. Your reply is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 28, 2020, 07:06:28 AM
Peace Wakas.
This is not my position, quote:
So your position is:
1) the singular salat refers to multiple salat
2) Quran explicitly says: X to/ila Y which you break up into parts and claim multiple salat. Do you also do the same for ablution in 5:6 when Quran says wash from hand to/ila elbow, you break it up and only wash parts from hand to elbow? Utter nonsense.
3) provides no time-ranges for each concocted salat whatsoever

My position is this:
The sun starts to decline from its highest point (Noon).   Hence the timing of this salat is Noon . The sun stays in decline to Ghasaki Al Layl  then will reverse to upwards towards Nahar..
So my position is one salat at different time from yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 28, 2020, 07:32:05 PM
peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

Peace brother Waqas...

Only 100 Dollars... 😬..... Had you promised more than that for this massive topic,  it would have been benefited by donating it... Your choice and a strange choice... Anyway be ready to donate for poor people whereever you live... Lol

By what I said above, don't think that I would prove within Quran that you were wrong...
My concerns...

Why did you opt this particular subject to worth 100 Dollar as gift? 
But why you prefer to be the solo judge in this case...
Will you cooperate in responses giving it utmost respect by not taking your stance to be more convincing while you are the judge as well?
In court one who produce a complaint cannot be judge simmultanously... Let the quran be the judge.. Okay? So I advice keep a voting system... So let people read the debate and vote of their choice... But let only vote those who partake in the debate... But let the voting be once debate is completed... Since I am law minded I suggested... But as you wish... Soon or later I will partake in this within Quran... Just a hint.. I agree for three Salat... So wait for hard days ahead... Lol 😂

I appreciate though your effort to convince within Quran... But you seems you are convinced that it is invincible... Let it be
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 28, 2020, 10:39:26 PM
peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

Peace...

Do you agree that chapter 62:9-11 is a Salat as well which is on a Congregation Day involving much business and notably amusement ?
 My simple question is can you specifically name which Salat it is?  You have only two salat as per your article Fajr and Isha... So without assumption can you precisely name the  Salat of 62:9-11 with reasons in order for me to go futher?


Further, 2:238 your claim wusta is not salat.. Okay.. Then would. You pls let us know which singular Salat God is emphasisng to guard in that verse?  Is it Isha OR Fajr and why? And how you judge it?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 29, 2020, 02:08:56 AM
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 24:58). I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20 (https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html).
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.


peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg288105#msg288105).
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.

Re: 62:9
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https://web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https://www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https://www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-Prayer

Re: 2:238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966).
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 29, 2020, 02:57:56 AM
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 24:58). I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20 (https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html).
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.


peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg288105#msg288105).
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.

Re: 62:9
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https://web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https://www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https://www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-Prayer

Re: 2:238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966).

Peace...
That's cool offer for every error...  Every error of whose?  Lol..

No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...

62:9-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter)  but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..

2:238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 03:56:49 AM
Peace Wakas.
 You say, quote:
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 24:58). I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.

So first let clear the timing I mean:

I say Duluk Al Shams starts when the sun starts to decline from the sky i.e at Noon.Then it finishes at "Ghasaki Al Leyl like the verse stated in 17:78.
Therefore 17:78  is saying to us Aquimi Salat ( Yes one salat) at the decline point, when the sun starts to decline from the sky ( Noon salat) ,that decline carries on till Ghasaki Al Leyl.(Minimum point of the decline) before it starts going up towards fajr and Nahar.
The sun has a maximum and a minimum. The timing in 17:78 is exact to when the sun starts the decline from the maximum height.
Is this clear for you?
You say "Duluk a Shams" is sunset. At sunset the sun has already declined a lot.Why choose this particular decline? bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset. In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams" : ...Kabla Ghurubiha.
If 17:78 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.

Remember you are asking to find errors in your work.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 29, 2020, 04:41:35 AM
Peace...
That's cool offer for every error...  Every error of whose?  Lol..

No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...

62:9-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter)  but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..

2:238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..

Further.. I missed one point relevant to 62:9-11... You didn't give any priority in your reply to AMUSEMENT.. .. You are trying to turn this as fundamentally as Haj, so why AMUSEMENT should be part of Haj... Is it allowed
..okay business in a way... But why amusement... It should be common to any gathering ...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 29, 2020, 05:21:24 AM
The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

peace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 9:3 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 62:9 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 62:9 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.

Re: 2:238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further: 2:239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2:239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 5:6 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.

peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again: Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl"), which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.

Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.

You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple: I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.

You then say "If 17:78 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.

From PRL: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.


In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 06:16:06 AM
Peace Wakas.

About this, quote:
"Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means."

From Qoran:
18:86
When he reached the far west, he found the sun setting in a vast ocean, and found people there. We said, "O Zul-Qarnain, you can rule as you wish; either punish, or be kind to them."
حَتّىٰ إِذا بَلَغَ مَغرِبَ الشَّمسِ وَجَدَها تَغرُبُ فى عَينٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَها قَومًا قُلنا يٰذَا القَرنَينِ إِمّا أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمّا أَن تَتَّخِذَ فيهِم حُسنًا

Al Shams Taghrubu, from the verb "Gharaba" . The noun "Maghrib"
I do not see the verb "Tadluku/ dalakat..." - the noun "Duluk"
Likewise here:
20:130
Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ وَقَبلَ غُروبِها وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ فَسَبِّح وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
The word "Ghurubiha" from Gharaba-noun ,Maghrib.
There is more evidence of "Gharb , Gharabat, Ghurub Al Ashms meaning for sunset than "Duluk Al Shams" as sunset in Qoran.

Therefore when you sa ,quote:
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

You have also  given decline,sinking, incline downwards as meaning .Does this not fit mine better now I have shown you Qoran uses another word for sunset?
So now we come to this, quote:
In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.

 For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses . more importantly there is complete logic and coherence with the way I explained verse 17:78  to mean the noon salat from Qoran s language and use of words.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 07:30:52 AM
I also need to answer this, quote:
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again: Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl"), which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.

No. The verse is stating do this one salat at the point/start of the duluk,which ends at ghasaki al lay. Not do the salat from the decline to ghasaki alaleyl. This is to identify the point clearly as the start of the decline that ends at ghasaki al leyl as there are many points in the decline of the sun from the highest point..

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 29, 2020, 11:47:10 AM
peace GL,

You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

Next, you claim for 17:78 when Quran says do X  li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.

Quote
For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses...

Of course it "works perfectly and is consistent" to you since we have no idea what your timings are so we cannot compare/test it.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 12:17:22 PM
Peace Wakas.
Are you saying here "Taghrubu is not setting? What is it then? The arabic expression is "he found it setting"
What about the other "Kabla "Ghurubiha" is this not after sunset
Can you see that the same verb is used in both?

As for this, quote:
"Next, you claim for 17:78 when Quran says do X  li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night."

It is you who is illogical look I explain:
17:78 says do X at A that goes towards  B.      A is the time range Noon  . Usually similar to lunchtime/sieta...etc.
 
If you take it like you say from the decline to Ghasaki Al Leyl, then it means this salat starts at A and finishes at B a very long salat.
This means that your salat timing starts at sunset and finishes at total dakness ?

In that case it means  the verse is saying  Aquimi the salat  continuously from A to B (the lenght of this salat), ? Not true or possible.

 Where did you see similar instructions of other salat in Qoran?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
Peace Wakas .
Just to clarify "Kabla Ghurubiha is before sunset.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 29, 2020, 01:41:24 PM
Peace Wakas.
You say here, quote:
You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

My simple answer to you is this:
18:17
You could see the sun when it rose coming from the right side of their cave, and when it set, it was coming on them from the left, as they slept in the hollow thereof. This is one of God's portents.* Whomever God guides is the truly guided one, and whomever He sends astray, you will not find for him a guiding teacher.
وَتَرَى الشَّمسَ إِذا طَلَعَت تَزٰوَرُ عَن كَهفِهِم ذاتَ اليَمينِ وَإِذا غَرَبَت تَقرِضُهُم ذاتَ الشِّمالِ وَهُم فى فَجوَةٍ مِنهُ ذٰلِكَ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ مَن يَهدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ المُهتَدِ وَمَن يُضلِل فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرشِدًا

Is Gharabat not clear that it is  the sun set?
The same verb brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on March 29, 2020, 02:08:04 PM
Salam!

See my translation as follows:
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ
Thus/so/therefore be patient upon what they are saying/asking
وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ
And glorify your Lord with praise
قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ
Before rise (of) the Sun
وَقَبلَ غُروبِها
And before its setting
وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ
And from hours/watches (of) the night
 فَسَبِّح
Thus/so/therefore glorify
 وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ
While edges/ends (of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
So that you may get pleased

Quran consistently repeats two times by using the words سحر، فجر، غدو, بکر for early morning and مسو، اصال، اصیلا،عشیا for afternoon/evening. While the night prayer is نافلۃ.

Why do you think that Quran is not consistent in its message?

Peace!
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 29, 2020, 07:32:22 PM
The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

peace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 9:3 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 62:9 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 62:9 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.

Re: 2:238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further: 2:239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2:239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 5:6 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.

peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again: Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl"), which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.

Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.

You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple: I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.

You then say "If 17:78 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.

From PRL: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.


In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.

Peace...
I do apologize for asking as a question... Thought you would consider in more apt way since your and our aim is to find out the errors.. But you discarded saying "Don't you have a quran".. Fine... Let's hope that's your nature.. .. But naturally amusement do take place in a fair / market taking into consideration the time the Quran  was revealed...  I have never read in Quran amusement was part of haj and for what purpose the amusement / sport needed where basically debate, dead people reminded and remembrance of God is taking place... It's not meant for fun... Naturally looking at the content of Haj amusement cannot be part of Haj (God allowed or not is not the key)...  But does it befit?  But here amusement is stated and it does befit within a weakly etc fair or market.. Why can't we perceive what suits to occasion... That's my point..

The verse 62:9-12 not sound like Haj at all... Look at the cream and the essence in the verse...
* people at business and asked to leave them (never stated to leave any Haj rituals and rush for Salat)
* And again once the salat is over. it never sounds like go and do what's relevant to haj, but go do business again. that's so unlikely the instructions if Haj is also meant by this verse...
* And the people who came to Haj and called for Salat can most probably be submitters / believers in order to come and perform Salat.. Then why they should leave Salat and rush for amusement almost all of them... Is amusement is so important during haj being believers...  Leaving the messenger standing.... 
God restricted certain things during Haj which is more or less without knowledge people may do,  and God doesn't need to restrict mostly what people hardly practice during haj.. That's amusement..
The greater day of Haj is one of the days of haj.. Greater day cannot be the only day of haj.. Haj is more than one day act..
But 62:9-11 specify ONLY ONE DAY.. 

2:238 ..still you are not ready to ponder what others say and remain eccentric on your view.. Fine.. But look for possibilities..
Here salawat and together with Salat wusta mentioned.. That's definitely unnecessary to mention wusta... If wusta is not a salat that needs emphasisng...
For example God used. 23:09 same word salawat and they are believers who guard salawat and successful... Notably,  there is no wusta... So if can be stated without wusta one place and Guard salawat why mention wusta in 2:238?
 
Coz it has a difference.. "Guard the prayers and the middle salat"... That's the most vulnerable Salat which can be missed coz of business and hustle and bustle  of busy day time ..needs extra emphasisng to guard it..

But in 23:9 it is not required.. Coz God is talking about those who guarded believers who guarded Fajr, Wusta, Isha...

Subsequently, I deduce there is no reason to put an additional word in 2:238 after saying Guard Salawat and salat wusta.. Guard salwar is more than enough as of 23:9 ...
Difference is..
23:9 is the one who is successful believers..
2:238 is instructions to become successful...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 29, 2020, 07:59:08 PM
In 24:58 you say only two salat is mentiones so tw is appropriate...
Do you think it is really necessary to say middle salat in that verse..
Perfectly alright Salat Fajr and Isha coz they are the perfect timong of privacy... Coz timing for Salat isha and Fajr is so limited.. Do you agree?  So mentioning after isha and before Fajr makes much sense...
But how would one say after or before middle prayer(wusta) since it has much longer period...

Questions for you.. In case there is a Salat at midday from the time of sun decline from Meridian till darkness, then how would the verse 24:58 should be placed?
Can the verse say after Wusta Salat or can it say before wusta Salat?

If God said after wusta Salat... Then wusta Salat should be exactly when the sun declines from its peak.. That's not the time by verse 17:78...that's manifestly long period...  Let them sleep and pray OR pray and sleep.. Enough time.. But when they remove cloth at noon it is a privacy... There is no way to include the salat as landmark as of Fajr and isha..  Try to grasp...

Further what GL and tmtt is indicating of Guribath is perfect.. That I also indicated to its maximum in one of the similar topic,  but you never considered... But you prefer to take 17:78 as sunset only and leaving more convenient and proper and comparable meaning aside..

That's only your option taking as sun set,  and it has nothing to convince other than your mere option.. Can you convince it is sunset... No way...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 30, 2020, 03:29:03 AM
peace GL,
Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, then you said "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams", then went on to cite verses 18:86, 20:130, 18:17 which do not contain that phrase. I will have to assume therefore you mean when "ghurub" is used referring to "shams" it means sunset.
I already showed the following:
Quote
You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

You then cited 18:17 so let's take a closer look:

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

1) underlined words are perfect verbs
2) the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
3) GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Tell us why it cannot mean these:
From: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ghayn-Ra-Ba = went/passed away, depart/retire/remove/disappear, become remote/distant/absent/hidden/black, withdraw, western, foreign/strange, exceed, abundance, sharpness, (maghrib = sunset), black, raven-black, setting place of the sun, the west.



When I said:
Quote
Next, you claim for 17:78 when Quran says do X  li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
I thought I was being clear. If you have no other examples from Quran which proves how you interpret it is possible then just say so. It is not an easy thing to research so it is understandable if you are not aware of corroborating examples.

The reason I asked this:
Quote
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.
Because you previously said this (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1756.msg8187#msg8187). Readers will also note the baseless claim made by GL regarding preposition "Li".
Since I/we have no idea what his timings system is we cannot compare/test it.


You claim the salat time I am referring to in the evening would be "very long" and "not true or possible" when according to this website (https://www.ukweathercams.co.uk/sunrise_sunset_times.php) the timeframe would be approx 34-75mins for London UK. It will depend of course on which twilight one is referring to but going by 2:187 it seems whiteness in the sky is a good indicator of twilight so that would be till end of civil twilight in this case giving 34mins. Doesn't seem "very long" to me.


peace TMTT,
I'm not sure what point you are making. Please clarify.


peace jkhan,
I never saw any highlighting of a flaw/error in my article in your replies. Quran says no sex/wrongdoing/quarreling for those undertaking al hajj [2:187]. If you want to claim there is also no amusement/sport/distraction then go ahead. Bear in mind not everyone in the locality will be undertaking al hajj.
Also I will give you a good example, when I have visited some bazaars, some sellers, e.g. of ice cream, will put on a show as an amusement/advertisement in order to attract watching people, so they are hopefully enticed to also buy ice cream. Under your made-up claims this may not be allowed. You need to consider the practicality of what you're suggesting.

And in case you are still confused, here are the type of errors/flaws/problems I am looking for:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610966.msg428541#msg428541
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jemby97 on March 30, 2020, 07:06:43 AM
Salam Everyone,

While it is good that this issue, one that has been discussed many many times before, without any agreement or conclusion, is being brought up again so that it can be finalized and concluded and agreed by all.

But, I feel that before discussing its timing, don't you think that it is better to agree to get the definition, meaning and objectives of Solat first.

Once this is agreed then the discussion of its timing will have meaning.

We can start on with Bro Wakas article on Salat.

Just my two cent contribution Guys.

Salam.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 31, 2020, 03:33:15 AM
Peace Wakas.
Let us first cklear "Maghrib, Gharabat, Ghurub Al Shams... and its derivatives.

Not one of them relates to "DULUK" do you agree ?. and they describe when the sun sets,disappear...
What is sunset according to you? Does one see sunset when the sun has just set/disappeared, the clear glow in the sky?
Then you have no grounds with this, quote:

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

 So here is my request to you :
Provide evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset?
All you have done is choose a meaning from lexicon that fits your view.
Remember you  are clearly claiming this ,not me.
If you do not,, your work cannot be without error/s 100%.

Second:  You claim sunset to Ghasaki Al Leyl is a time frame,How do you deduce it is a time frame and not the lenght of the single salat?
You say Li/At or from To Ghasaki Al Leyl is not the lenght of the salat, yet if the instruction is from...to it can only mean continuous?

Otherwise the instruction would be Bayna Duluk ...Ila Ghasaki Al Leyl. i.e between Duluk and Ghasaki...This is a time frame not what you claim.
I am going to summarize here for you and the reader to show your errors in translating 17:78:

1- No evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset, even though Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set...

2- No evidence that "at-to" or "from -to" means time frame and not one continuous salat of the whole lenght of time.

I explained my view , However ,regardless of any other view,I am highlighting the errors in your translation which is what you are asking the readers to do.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 31, 2020, 06:48:53 AM
peace GL,
I am using the dictionary definition of "sunset" which refers to when the sun disc is fully below the horizon.

Thanks for making things clearer for readers:

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset"), so he cited 18:86, 20:130.
I refuted his claim regarding 18:86.
GL had no direct response and then cited 18:17.
I analysed 18:17 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and  his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.


I do not understand your point about timeframe and length of salat. I clearly and unequivocally state what the timeframe/length is for each salat. In fact, I have no idea how anyone can be confused after reading what I wrote in the article, quote: "To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight)."
Or to put it in your language, yes it's continuous. Although in the real world it would be flexible, e.g. if someone wants to do a little more/less etc it's not a problem as per Quran, which I discuss in the articles. Readers must pay attention to the ONLY plural address verse that uses salat and a timing component and that is 24:58, which says morning/dawn and evening/dusk, i.e. it gives no time-range/length. The time-ranges in Quran are exemplars. I think I will make this point clearer in my article.




Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 31, 2020, 08:22:37 AM
Peace Wakas.
You have no evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset, or after sunset,Hence it is on you to bring the evidence from Qoran.
Or do you want us to take your view for it as accurate?

What is sunset in Arabic, Let us ask everyone (Who knows Arabic) this question to see who is right? You are not accepting Qoran.
The Salat at sunset ( i.e just after sunset) like you claim is called Maghrib salat by all Muslims. Nowhere do I see or hear Duluk salat.
You are now dodging the question of evidence .

 You say, quote:
Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and  his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.

I have given you the following explanation for time frame, in fact I will give you my translation of 17:78:
"Aquimi the  salat at the point(start) of decline of the sun(Atnoon), the decline that goes towards ghasaki al leyland...."
This salat is the noon salat and itstime frame is the noon time. i.e lunchtime,siesta time...-Known worlwide .

Your explanation of time frame cannot mean time frame it can only mean the whole time from sunset to ghasaki al leyl according to the Arabic you have chosen as at-to or from to.. If you say it is up to the individual how long they take, bring evidence from Qoran and identify clearly what is the salat  in details to see why it should take that long. Or are you saying GOD is not clear?

Now concentrate on bringing evidence from Qoran for:
1- duluk Al Shams is sunset.
2- Time frame clarification .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on March 31, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
peace GL,
It's funny how you ask me for Quranic evidence for "duluk al-shams" meaning "sunset" then refer to non-Quranic evidence for "ghurub" / "maghrib" meaning "sunset". Seems to me you have given up on your alleged Quranic evidence.

You say it means zenith but since it occurs only once you (like me) cannot prove it means what we take it to mean directly, so stop pretending your view is somehow superior to mine. But we can provide evidence indirectly:

4:82 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy/contradiction.

If we select a meaning that results in no errors/flaws/contradictions etc then that chosen meaning is a contender. No-one in this thread so far has found any flaw/error/contradiction in what I've written.

There is no need for me to clarify timeframe. I have already answered this question. It is crystal clear in my article. It seems only you are confused about timeframe.

And by the way you never answered what I asked, but it's ok, I understand why you'd be reluctant to do so.

#####

In case if anyone actually reads my article on SaBiH (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html) I actually discuss why "duluk al shams" is used, hence why in this article I state "setting of the sun / sunset" as it doesn't affect my position which is chosen.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 31, 2020, 10:47:58 AM
Peace Wakas.
  I am just doing what you asked people to do in this thread. I am showing you that there are issues in the work you claim has no errors.
 Here are the clear errors.
1- No evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset.
The dictionary has many meanings for duluk,. All you have to do is show that duluk Al Shams in Qoran has that meaning, find another verse or expression from Qoran to confirm for us you are right.
Otherwise, it is your view  Hence you have no evidence.

2- Your time frame and explanation of this salat  does not make sense. Clarify  or explain this salat  in details that takes more than two hours to complete. What does Qoran mean when it instructs the salat from sunset to ghasaki Al Leyl?
Remember, the Arabic has not said between sunset and ghasaki Al Leyl as this is what one expects for time frame.

If you are claiming your work is still 100%, then you are ignoring some very important and logical problems in your work. You have not been convincing in your answers and you have not provided any verses from Qoran to confirm your understanding.

If you say it is your view and accept that there may be room for improvement that is a better way than the position you are taking. about your work has no errors?
Can you see the issue brother?
Otherwise it is up to you to claim whatever you want.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on March 31, 2020, 11:30:49 AM
Peace Wakas .
One more point
You seem to ignore verses that talk about the sun setting, before sunset. i.e clearly identifying the process of the sun going under the horizon.
All of them here:
hapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf: Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf: Verse 86
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا ۗ قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَنْ تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَنْ تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا

Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha: Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf: Verse 17
وَتَرَى الشَّمْسَ إِذَا طَلَعَتْ تَزَاوَرُ عَنْ كَهْفِهِمْ ذَاتَ الْيَمِينِ وَإِذَا غَرَبَتْ تَقْرِضُهُمْ ذَاتَ الشِّمَالِ وَهُمْ فِي فَجْوَةٍ مِنْهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۗ مَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرْشِدًا

None of them mentioned duluk?

Even after it disappears Qoran used a different word than duluk.
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

You are not accepting but you cannot confirm your take. Is mine not a better position than yours regarding sunset.?
Just to clarify.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on March 31, 2020, 12:46:13 PM
Salam, brother Wakas!
What is your take on the expression قبل غروبھا (BEFORE its setting)? 50:39

Hope my question is clear now.

Thanks & peace!
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Cerberus on March 31, 2020, 02:42:24 PM
peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

Sure. I'll have to preface this with the fact that this question does not interest me as I find it to be useless.

But let see what you claimed, and whether it makes sense for you to claim what you claim, and with such confidence.


You took the following verse:

24:58 O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.,

The above verse, that defines specific instances where certain people should request permission, and in doing so, the verse mentioned two salat. And so you concluded the following:

- Since the verse, that by the way talks about permission/privacy (completely unrelated) happened to mention two salat, lo and behold, there must be exactly and only two salat !

I hope I made your illogical argument clear enough.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on March 31, 2020, 07:27:36 PM
Peace...
I am surprised the way you are dealing this topic.. You have sealed your assumptions... And not ready to give any thoughts... With that attitude it's hard to unearth the truth.. I don't  see anything wrong in the responses of GL... But you skip and pointing him as weak and keeping your long felt dislike on him I guess.. That's obvious even you say no... You never answered my reply connected with 23:09...

Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter)  coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Accordingly... God has revealed the Mid Salat first and then ordered Salat at two ENDs... Take all Salat verses... None of the Salat verses (for prayer and not Salat = moral/ethic verses) appears before the timing of salat is revealed... Very meticulously go through the order before rushing to answer.. I know you will be blinded in this manifest evidence.. Let's hope at least the viewers will ponder..

God ordered to pray in 17:78 first of three Salat... And explained in 17:110 how to perform it...   This chapter order of revelation is 50th
Then the next two salat is revealed in the chapter 11th which order of revelation is 52nd....

 11:114 "And perform the Salat at the two ends of the day but near parts of the night ..... ..."

Whatever pertaining to Salat (prayer) in entire Quran is reveled after these two chapters...

So dear brothers and sisters how come there is no salat at mid day and that last long period till sun set and darkness creep in..

Fajr and isha is mere a time period which exist in the society... And the salat God ordered fall within these period.. So God called it using these two periods and named it isha and Fajr Salat... But it is not their real names... So God called them without AL but mere  Salat Al... ...
But for Mid Salat God used AL  Salat Al Wusta ...it has big emphasis.. It is the first of the Salat ordered for those who never practiced Salat in life.. While others who were given scriptures practicing.. Second it is the most vulnerable Salat that can be skipped during day time.. Like Sulaiman missed (he can remember God at any time but Salat is time fixed that's why he was concerned)..
Third ..importantly, the Salat AL wusta has lengthy period than other two Salat.. So no typical Arabic word like isha OR Fajr are for this period... So God uses Wusta with AL  to emphasize...

Go research all Salat(prayer) verses and let me know I am wrong in connection with ORDER OF REVELATION....  I bet you will never be able to... If you then the order of revelation  has to have something wrong.. That I don't expect...
God preserved how quran was revealed and with which chapters first and last and the complete readable order as well with reason...

Hope it benefits for those who wish to reflect..

Find the truth and not the adamence of view...

If as Waqas claim 17:78 is salat isha thrn no need to repeat it as timing in 11:114...
In that case 11:114 is more Th add n enough if ONLY two salat..

Your claim is so fragile but you alone think so... While you have some very robust articles that are comprehensive
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 02, 2020, 01:19:33 AM
peace GL,
Please look up the definitions of "clear" and "error". Essentially your objection (not clear error) is that I haven't proven "duluk al shams" is "sunset" and you haven't proven it isn't.
I have no idea what you're referring to with the time frame issue so cannot comment further.

Of course there is room for improvement in any work however I am asking for actual verifiable errors/flaws.


peace TMTT,
Please see the links in the article in which further detail is provided, e.g. this one (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html).


peace jkhan,
Again I didn't see you pointing out an error/flaw, and it now seems your argument is based on unverifiable chronological order of revelation. Also I have a section with deals with "wusta" here (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html).


peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Cerberus on April 02, 2020, 03:00:12 AM
peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.

I reworded your argument so that YOU can see the flaw. But I guess I have to take baby steps with you so that you don't run away.

You asked for a flaw and will show you one. I'm not debating your entire argument, nor do I care about what that whole thing is about.


From your link:

Your base argument, POINT 1, in itself refers to verse 24:58 that happens to mention two salats while it is talking about timings where people should request permission.
POINT 2, you claim 24:58 is the only verse "in the plural address to the mumineen that mentions a time-based salat. Sure I'll take your word for it.
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat. And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Your entire argument is based on the fact that there has been a mention of two salats, implying there is a significance to that in relation to the total number of salats. It doesn't, not logically atleast. Three timings were mentioned in that verse, two of them happened to be salat related, how does that give you a hint about the total number of salats ? Well you assumed it does and you carried on in the rest of your article in finding bits and pieces here and there trying to consolidate your first point.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 02, 2020, 03:00:30 AM
Peace Wakas.

So you ignore evidence from Qoran that the setting of the sun/sunset is "Al Ghurub"," Ghurub Al Shams2, or Ghurubiha(when the subject is the sun), like given to you here:
Chapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf: Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Is this "Al Ghurub" here not the setting of the sun/sunset? Like "Tuluu Al Shams " here is the rising of the sun/sunrise?

And here:
Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha: Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Remember in claiming to refute me about other verses(that were talking about the subject of "the sun setting", you conveniently left out 20:130, . was this deliberate since you said, quote:

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset"), so he cited 18:86, 20:130.
I refuted his claim regarding 18:86.
GL had no direct response and then cited 18:17.
I analysed 18:17 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

You said nothing about 20:130?
I say this clearly refutes your take that Duluk Al Shams is the setting of the sun/sunset.
Or are you going to be inconsistent about your approach to Qoran analysis? i.e wanting evidence from Qoran from others while ignoring evidence against you from Qoran?

As for "Time frame" ,it means between certain times not to do salat from -to like you assume this is the total lenght of the salat. What is the details of this salat that takes all this time?.
If it was the case,the Arabic for time frame  in the verse would have been "Bayna sunset - ila/wa darkness.
 Is this clear to you brother?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 02, 2020, 05:47:15 AM
peace Cerebrus,
Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat.

Where did I say 24:58 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused: Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here:

Quote
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Quote
And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.



peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20:130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Re: timeframe
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is:
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

Simplified:
GL's view: 17:78 does not mean continuous timeframe A ila/to B.
My view: 17:78 means a continuous timeframe A ila/to B.

Have I understood you correctly?
If so, you will have to provide evidence for your view from Quran. I provided a perfect example from 5:6 wash hands to/ila elbows, unless you only wash parts from hand to elbow.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Cerberus on April 02, 2020, 06:40:48 AM
peace Cerebrus,
Where did I say 24:58 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused: Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here:

Quote
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.


Yes I have alluded to your "understanding" and I intentionally put the quotation marks
.
To simplify, always good to simplify to get rid of any obfuscations, I'm re-wording your 3 points in the following:

Point 1: Verse 24:58 the only verse that mentions two salats in a certain format - salat wusta doesn't count since it has a different form or whatever.

Point 2: Verse 24:58 the only verse that mentions two salats in a plural address to the mumineen - not sure how does that advances anything.

Point 3: AD VERBATIM it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.


Where is the logic ?  What you proposed in point 1 and 2 do not justify point 3. In other words, BIAS. Hence the flaw of your argument.
You took 24:58,selectively attributed some characteristics to it, format + plural address to the mumineen (How does that give it any power?) ,jumps to point 3 to claim this "understanding" is the most logical coherent understanding, hello ?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 02, 2020, 07:39:32 AM
Peace Wakas.
You say, quote:
peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20:130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Do you mean the setting of the sun and sunset are two different things?
You are playing a strange game , every translation has setting of the sun /sunset for the verses(50:39 and 20:130) like you translated 17:78. Are you changing your translation of 17:78 now?
Translate 50:39 and 20:130 for us then?
As for the sun below horizon , it is ambiguous, how long after?,  Once Ghurub/sunset happens anytime after is after sunset and not sunset.
It is strange how you are playing with meaning of words to get out of the problem!

 Qoran even deals with when the sun is below the horizon a ,here:
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ
 Afalat, ,where does your duluk come into it?
Oh and here is your translation,quote:
17:78 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...
You translate Duluk Al Shams as setting of the sun/sunset
Now check all the translations of Qoran about 50:39 and 20:130 they all have setting of the sun//sunset for ghurub.
 There is only one setting of the sun/sunset brother.

Now the second issue: you say ,quote:
Re: time frame
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is:
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

No ,that is not what I said. I will have to explain again:
Time frame is between two times. you are saying  that 17:78 gives a time frame. The Arabic of the verse does not agree with you.
if you take it as from-to, like you do it gives the total lenght of the salat.. i.e one continuous long salat?
If it was a time frame of between two times the Arabic would have been "Bayna-ila/wa..

So I am asking you if it is one long continuous salat give us the details of it to see if if there exist such a salat.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 02, 2020, 11:03:43 AM
peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to:

Quote
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows, listed in no particular order:

1) there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 24:58, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2:238 is not in the same form [see point 11 here].
2) the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 24:58 which only has two timings.
3) it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
4) it is the ONLY understanding that I have seen which respects the Arabic (i.e. other understandings ignore word forms, grammar, are inconsistent or make baseless claims)
5) all verses in the plural address which mention a timed-SaBiH/glorification or timed-THiKR/rememberance reference morning and evening (i.e. two timings)
6) all verses which mention a timed-SaBiH or timed-THiKR which could be interpreted as more than two timings are in the singular address [see article]
7) it is the ONLY understanding that can encompass other salat-timing systems such as thrice daily, or 5 daily, since it is a minimum of two.
8 ) it is the ONLY understanding that shows when The Quran mentions salat timings in a verse it always mentions the obligatory timings (i.e. two) together, unlike other understandings which say Quran sometimes mentions two here, three there, one here, one there etc. Making the understanding presented here the clearest of the variant views.
9) it is the ONLY timing system which works in all parts of the world. This will be explained later..

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.

peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).


Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this:
Do you take "time frame" to mean:
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.

In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 02, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Peace Wakas.
The setting of the sun means only one things sunset. i.e sun has just set-gone below horizon-. However you say this, quote:
peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

In this case why put both in your translation  if you view them as slightly different? And how different? Explain how the setting of the sun and sunset differ? You do not make sense?

Now you give me your weakest verse from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset? The weakest you can find?

Brother, you are now just insisting  that regardless of Qoran s view, your view is correct.
Your excuse is "I have not read your article",?
 This is an obvious error in your translation of 17:78, one does not need to go further ,If you are using two different times according to you( setting of the sun/sunset, then duluk Al Shams means both or both are the same?
Or is this not logical?

For the second issue I am asking you to detail this salat that Qoran is asking you to observe for the full duration from the setting of the sun/sunset to darkness. How long , what to do and how?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 02, 2020, 03:46:12 PM
Peace Wakas.
I will deal with this point, quote:
You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

Verse - 50 :39: فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ
Can only mean two things about the sun
Sunrise and sunset.
قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ    Before the sun is visible, once it starts to rise it is no longer true as it is sunrise.(Otherwise the expression will describe which stage in the process of the rising of the sun)
Similarlyوَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ  While the sun is still visible it is before sunset, hence Ghurub must be sunset,(Otherwise the expression would have given the stage of the  process of the sun partly setting). Ghurub can only mean the sun not visible ,hence gone below the horizon.
 Al Ghurub= sunset in this verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 02, 2020, 05:54:19 PM
Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION  is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with,  I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 17:78 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11:114 ... For what reason...
11:114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar...  So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 17:78 by explaining its timing,  why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11:114 ONLY?  WHY..
IF  we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11:114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11:114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self? 

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11:114?  No Right.. Coz 11:114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 17:78 and 11:114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why?  11:114 is "zulafan minal  layl" while  17:78 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11:114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Cerberus on April 03, 2020, 04:46:02 AM
peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to:

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.



It's not me who is confusing anything. It is your article.

You have listed with numbers your arguments. At POINT 3 you refer to some "understanding" saying: "it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical."

What understanding is it ? You presented 2 arguments before. Point 1 laid out your base argument. Point 2 added to it. Point 3 refered to an understanding. I already proved that whatever point 3 is refering to makes little sense in relation to Point 1 and Point 2 as they're not strong enough to justify Point 3.

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Anyways, I said what I wanted to say. That's all for me here.

In relation to Salat in general, I don't think the typical quran-only approach of digging in linguistic and doing these kind of weird analysis of verses makes much sense. If SALAT had a purpose, then its purpose justifies its timing. Lay out the correct purpose of the salat and find out what is the most logical timings to fulfill it. It's not the other way around. This in my opinion is more logical than what you're trying to achieve in your article.

In my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day.  No more specific than that
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: hawk99 on April 03, 2020, 04:18:29 PM

my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day.  No more specific than that

We agree.

Peace Brother Wakas another approach to consider would be to ascertain
when salat is prohibited , I think that would be an indicator of
how many salat there are.


                                               :peace:
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 04, 2020, 08:00:50 AM
peace GL,
I agree that in 50:39 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to:

Quote
You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

Quote
You then cited 18:17 so let's take a closer look:

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

1) underlined words are perfect verbs
2) the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
3) GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Not only did you have no direct reply to any of the above, it is likely why you subtly changed your claim from "sunset" to ""Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..." i.e. the process of setting.


In any case, it doesn't make any difference to my view whether that word means sun below horizon or in the process of setting. I cover these verses here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

Quote
The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

I simply chose a meaning that results in the utmost logic, coherence, practicality and clarity, and asked others to find a flaw/error in this understanding.

I will add another, it also results in symmetry of timings.


But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 04, 2020, 08:04:18 AM

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Hasn't been laid out? It's in the first paragraph of the article!

Original:
Quote
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows:

In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others:

Quote
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this understanding are as follows, listed in no particular order:



Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 04, 2020, 08:08:19 AM
peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: SarahY on April 04, 2020, 11:36:26 AM
There's a lot of ambiguity with salat.

I agree with you in that the Quran seems to emphasis and name 2 salats.

I don't know if I agree with it being the minimum because there seems to be a call to do more or to perform salat if called upon it in preference over transactions,sports or distractions see: 62:10-11

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 04, 2020, 07:36:24 PM
peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.

Salam Waqas...

Brother I did read your article or not is immaterial .. Coz I have read the Quran and it has guided me about Salat .. In addition your claim of Two Salat is not new for me... Coz I have read all your articles... But I never was against what you write which is in line with Quran... Unfortunately not this time...

Regardless of whatever written in your article, the truth from your side is two salat is your acceptance..

That's why I question you...
For you 17:78 and 11:114 both Salat Isha... That's what you say with transperancy....
So brother...  11:114 and 17:78 is same for you coz even how much you try to say No, it won't work out.. Coz Isha Salat has a timing and that timing for you is 11:114 and 17:78... But how different both the verses you failed to grasp (How come one take the same Salat by both the verses while both verses entirely different). So what is the point of asking me better read your article or saying you've mistaken my view..
Truth is You have mistaken horribly the three Salat and stuck in it without being able to get out of it... 

I have given my knowledge of Quran to people... And it is not my intention to grab your 10$ ... Hope those who reflect would reflect...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: ade_cool on April 04, 2020, 09:46:33 PM
Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter)  coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Salam jkhan,

Can you elaborate further regarding "Quran order of revelation" that you mentioned here? Perhaps in separate thread in order not to mix with the topic in this thread.


Wassalam,
Ade
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 04, 2020, 10:51:01 PM
Peace.. Everyone...

How can Duluki shams  be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA....  Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention  to 11:114 carefully...
According to waqas...  Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset...  So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

According to waqas the very starting point of Isha Salat (based on his research of both 17:78 and11:114) is Sunset,
Then logically the moment of salat Fajr undeniably Sunrise... thats incontrovertible... That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God...  (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO  TWILIGHTS  period... And From there, inwards to night period(Zulafan minal  Lail) .. That's why while fasting, no sex after white thread at Fajr no food no drinks and not UNTILL sunrise... Huge difference is there with definition of Fajr and sunrise...

Is Sunrise equal to FAJR...  Is minute/s before sunrise called Fajr in Arabic... We got to go in line with Arabic and the nature where quran was revealed when it comes timing reference and not the north pole climate.. Will extreme north pole climate ever suite for fasting or Salat instructions throughout the year?

If one take the meaning TWO ends as point of SUNRISE and SUNSET then I am afraid they will be in great dilemma to figure out the time of Fajr.....

Question arise in this way...
** Do they have to wait till sunrise as indication for beginning or ending .. That's far from possibility...
** So in that case why they wait till sunset and immediately pray at the other End.. Isha...

See how simple and how perfect if you take two ends are Two Twilights periods..

So instructions are very clear and undoubtedly befit to wording of Isha and Fajr in Arabic...

Two ends prayers are not in two twilights..... Both in the near parts (zulafan) of night... That's perfect period of Isha and Fajr in definition of Arabic ...

Your claim of Isha and Fajr never befits with wording of God and not the given time frame... And not even Arabic language... If one asked you to come at Isha,  will you go and knock the door while sun setting?  Lol..  You have to be none Arab to do that..

Use common sense in 24:58 ... Instead of mentioning BEFORE FAJR salat permission, it is more befits before SUNRISE.. Coz last point of Fajr Salat according to you is sunrise... So kids needs to take permission before sunrise... Coz kids should know till sunrise parents are permitted to pray Fajr... So it is far better indication than before Fajr coz it's so manifest for kids coz no salat after sunrise .. So easy to confusion.. .
Meanwhile if one prayed Isha at the setting of sun then still full of light in the sky that is privacy period.. That's super bizzare... Nonsensical... reason of privacy is completely complicated by your timing brother waqas.. That doesn't befit according to the nature of where the quran was revealed.. At least there it takes 45-60 Minutes in summer...
Mid day privacy is basically coz of tiredness and heat ...but privacy of after isha and before Fajr may not be the same.. So kids worth asking permission... 

Note... "put aside your clothes" ... This is but SUMMER and not WINTER ...
So this verse will never befit for winter season... Coz it is very unlikely that people would REMOVE Clothes midday during Winter and rest. .  That's very inhuman... Why I say so is... clothes removing is not at all mentioned for before Fajr and after Isha.. Not at all required to state..... Isn't it? ..
But specifically why mentioned removing clothes removal at midday as if they won't remove clothes after isha till Fajr?
It is crystal clear the purpose of removing clothes at midday is coz of Heat.. They may remove depend on each.. Even they may not remove... So no privacy.. Is clothe removal for sex then does God force them to have sex at midday ? No way... So Is it must to remove cloths since God ordered three privacy times?  No way... If they don't remove then there is no harm / sin in them... It's normal time as other time...
But what about after isha and before Fajr? It is must privacy in my understanding...  Kids taking permission is mandatory... And kids and parents mingling during this time is not even encouraged.. But for necessity with permission ....
Note the addition in the verse "There is no fault/sin/harm in you or them, apart from these (three times), that you go about one to the other..

So had God mentioned in the verse 24:58 as AFTER Salat Wusta privacy ... Too many confusions would have risen...
1..How Kids will judge that parents are having rest after Al Salat Al wusta OR without Salat... How even when they get up after rest they(kids) make sure that it is unrestricted time to mingle... Coz their only indication is Salat wusta if God mentioned so.. That's why it is not opted by God using salat... But other two Salat perfect... Before Fajr people in deep sleep and may be untidy with clothing... And after isha is of course night and needless to say.. And the time frame for both is very limited so kids will know by this time parents would have prayed.. So for after isha restrictions imposed and after Fajr restrictions lifted...
But it is impossible to use the word Salat for third privacy at midday.. So God rightly not used Salat ...

2.. Had God mentioned after Salat wusta privacy.. Then it will become mandatory that they Pray First then rest or remove clothes.. That's far from the truth of the time frame given by verse 17:78...

If anyone has doubt of order of Salat.. Note 24:58 how orderly God stated..
God mentioned first Salat Fajr... That's the start of day... Then mid day privacy (note above why Salat cannot be indication)
Third isha Salat and the day ends...
God could have mentioned first isha Salat then midday and then Fajr... But not.. He knows what is the order... No need to confuse...

Further if anyone has concern why the third Salat is called Wusta...  Then my only answer is God has assigned two salat at twyo ENDs so the third Salat definitely befit between those two ENDs.. Coz it is clear according 24:58 the Fajr Salat is first of the day...

Salat are Fajr > Wusta < Isha ...
Why wusta is emphasised..  Fajr and isha are falling in a more convenient time... Starting and end time...  But wusta is falling busy time and vulnerable with worldly desires. .. It is not surprising why God revealed salat wusta first 17:78...

Thanks for reading..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 05, 2020, 01:17:45 AM
peace jkhan,

Rather than making baseless claims, I recommend actually citing some evidence.

How can Duluki shams  be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA....  Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention  to 11:114 carefully...
According to waqas...  Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset...  So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

Who knows Arabic language better: jkhan or Arabic lexicons? Quote from lexicons:

Quote
isha - commencement of darkness, early night, dusk, evening.

Quote
Fa-Jiim-Ra = ...dawn/sunrise/daybreak



Quote from: jkhan
That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God...  (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO  TWILIGHTS  period

That's what I'm saying! Quote from my article:
Quote
salat al fajr / salat (of) the dawn/morning
As it's name suggests it is done around dawn (morning twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves a proximity of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon (i.e. end of morning twilight)
salat al isha / salat (of) the dusk/evening
As it's name suggests it is done around dusk (evening twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves the proximites of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).

I never read the rest of your post, sorry, as I consider your critique quality thus far to be poor. Hence why I recommended one point at a time to make things easier.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: hawk99 on April 05, 2020, 04:55:01 AM
Peace Wakas,

Is it your conclusion that there are 3 daily ritual salat?

Which prayer is 17:78 referring to in your opinion?

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 05, 2020, 05:08:23 AM
Peace Wakas.
 You say ,quote:
I agree that in 50:39 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to:

Explain how it could mean any other point than the ending of the setting? i.e sunset.
I have explained this  and it makes a lot of sense ,
 A deadline of  before Al Ghurub pin points the exact time, End of daytime and beginning of night. i.e sunset: Just like "
"before tului Al Shams" pinpoints at exactly the end of nightime and beginning of daytime. i.e sunrise.
The only logical explanation. 

As for this, quote:
The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

With no evidence from Qoran, it remains your claim. And baseless at that just like you call the claims of others.. And your credibility remains intact?  Not logical.
Brother. You claimed your work was without errors, now feww posts down the line you are adding these, quote:

"In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others:"

"But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point."

"In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.".

I am afraid that your article is your view, you may insist  these are not really errors and argue around them, but the bottom line is that a sound argument with no errors does not require any tweeks or change.
For me, you are entitled to claim  and stick with your claim, but can you see my point?
 I explained "duluk" poin is a declinet, if a decline of the sun starts at Noon, just before sunset and sunset are points way after noon. And l to me you have not provided evidence from Qoran that your timing is the right point of decline or that it means any of them?
Remember you have not researched this point?

So it is understandable I see the two points of  "sun setting and time frame as errors.. My aim  in answering you is to make this point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 08, 2020, 02:06:48 AM
Peace everyone ...

Concerns may be oozing to certain people.. what exactly Quran orders to pray and at what times... Why it is so hard and why so many contradictory convictions within those who accepts Quran alone for guidance..

But God with manifest verse stated, those are the successful who guard the Salat and they are believers.. 23:1-10

So,  if we are to adhere to what Waqas claim either we are skipping one salat or doing extra salat/s... Whatever we do we go against God's instructions unless we opted the right guidance... Definitely it is not optional.. Isn't it?

The reason is.. God insist as an order to Guard the Salawat (prayers)  2:238 meanwhile God claim those who guard salawat are believers and the successful ones 23:1-10..

Isn't there a serious issue creeping in then?.
 
Dear brothers and sisters.. Can we say to God ...
*** We were not aware what is written in Quran so we prayed 5 times...
*** We thought it is mentioned three times.. So we did continue..
*** W heard from people like waqas that it is 2 times so we skipped day prayer...

I just furnished possible statements that people may utter on the day of ressurection if we chose the wrong option...

So,  people go for the best option and the best explanation within Quran and follow what God guides you with..

If everything is right, then there is no need for God to provide fixed timing for Salat and reiterate to guard them..

4:103 "... ..... Verily, the PRAYER(singular) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours" ...
Does it mean only one salat per day? Not at all..

Ultimately, nothing is argued or bought into table comprehensively by the author of the article...
So, I do remain with my understanding and continue to perform three times...
May Allah guide us all which takes us to Janna..

That's all I have to say on this topic... Had there been any reasonable logic in the debate, surely I would have paid attention to it.. But there is nothing...
Nothing more to say on this topic...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jemby97 on April 08, 2020, 05:04:36 AM
Salam Everyone,

i think this video explaination by Brother Joseph Yaseen of Quran Centric will best explain this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKoYRWrsBiQ

Thank you.

Salam
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 08, 2020, 05:38:02 AM
Salam Everyone,

i think this video explaination by Brother Joseph Yaseen of Quran Centric will best explain this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKoYRWrsBiQ

Thank you.

Salam

Peace..
That's not true dude... That's far from Quran... Quran is more than sufficient for me...
You can follow, if you are satisfied with it and be responsible for what you do..
God guide you and me and all..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jemby97 on April 08, 2020, 06:01:35 AM
Salam Jkhan

Thank you Brother.

God bless
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: amin on April 09, 2020, 09:36:47 PM
Peace everyone ...

Concerns may be oozing to certain people.. what exactly Quran orders to pray and at what times... Why it is so hard and why so many contradictory convictions within those who accepts Quran alone for guidance..

But God with manifest verse stated, those are the successful who guard the Salat and they are believers.. 23:1-10

So,  if we are to adhere to what Waqas claim either we are skipping one salat or doing extra salat/s... Whatever we do we go against God's instructions unless we opted the right guidance... Definitely it is not optional.. Isn't it?

The reason is.. God insist as an order to Guard the Salawat (prayers)  2:238 meanwhile God claim those who guard salawat are believers and the successful ones 23:1-10..

Isn't there a serious issue creeping in then?.
 
Dear brothers and sisters.. Can we say to God ...
*** We were not aware what is written in Quran so we prayed 5 times...
*** We thought it is mentioned three times.. So we did continue..
*** W heard from people like waqas that it is 2 times so we skipped day prayer...

I just furnished possible statements that people may utter on the day of ressurection if we chose the wrong option...

So,  people go for the best option and the best explanation within Quran and follow what God guides you with..

If everything is right, then there is no need for God to provide fixed timing for Salat and reiterate to guard them..

4:103 "... ..... Verily, the PRAYER(singular) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours" ...
Does it mean only one salat per day? Not at all..

Ultimately, nothing is argued or bought into table comprehensively by the author of the article...
So, I do remain with my understanding and continue to perform three times...
May Allah guide us all which takes us to Janna..

That's all I have to say on this topic... Had there been any reasonable logic in the debate, surely I would have paid attention to it.. But there is nothing...
Nothing more to say on this topic...

So you think God will punish if we do less or more number of Salat ritual, so whats that ritual, how you do it, did  God taught you how it should be done through the book Quran?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 09, 2020, 11:43:38 PM
Please refrain from discussing what salat is.

The article is specifically for the timings.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on April 11, 2020, 05:11:20 AM
Peace All.
This subject has been running on this forum and on multiple other forums for years.
I have read thousands of views ,most claiming they have an answer to:
1- Salat according to Qoran, its timing, contents and objective.

First let me make a clear statement to do with minimum salvation,as this is important for our priority:

I see the deen as a state of mind. A mind that is in tune / in a relation with GOD the creator and respects all the creation. A mind that follows the Sirat Al Mustaqueen as defined in 6{151-153.}

"Inna Deen Inda Allah Al Islam" and "Ihdina Tariq Al Mustaqueem"

It is also a choice. "La Ikraha Fi Deen" .GOD does not force this deen on anyone.
Fa Man Chaa Fal Umin Wa Man Chaa Falyakfur?"Whoever want to believe...and whoever want to disbelieve."

If one wants to become a Muslim ,then they should have no objection to following the best path instructed by GOD in Qoran, if they claim to follow Qoran/believe in it.

GOD does not expect people to pretend or to force themselves to do things they do not like or agree with. It is better if they were honest with themselves and only did things that make sense to them or things that they agree with.
That is better in the sight of GOD.
There is nothing wrong with having a private debate with GOD about all your doubts. GOD is listening.
If you want to take a journey with GOD .it is private and very personal between you and your creator.

If you want to go it alone or rely on others that is also your freedom of choice.. But you are accountable for having the faculties(eyes ears and brain) GOD gave you to use. If one misuses them they have only themselves to blame.

For me it is a no brainer. I do not see a way out except back to GOD at the end.
 So by choice and I am glad I realised this. I willingly decline my "Amana" other choice. I submit to the Lord of the universe and seek his friendship, light and guidance direct .
I do not see any problems with following the best path from Qoran s instruction. GOD has made his deen easy once the trial period of "making the decision" to enter into an agreement with the creator is over After all ,GOD will want to "try you" if you mean it or not!!!.
Of course my human instinct is fighting this surrender daily but I cannot go back on my covenant/agreement .

In short we are free but people make a problem for themselves by conforming to things they doubt or do not make sense to them.
Your decision alone is required ,nobody else will bare your burden whether you rely on them or not.
GOD guides and teaches all the true believers.

Coming back to "The Salat" , I have spent years investigating many views, especially those views from the specific "Qoran alone"  brothers and sistyers. All asking " where can I find how  and when to do "The Salat" from Qoran?. Yet after giving their views most fail to find the meaning and details of their claims using Qoran, which  they were asking the exact thing  in the first place.
The only exception that had a solid argument that was coherent and used all Qoran in context about "the salat" was this-according to my research- :
https://submission.org/Where_can_we_find_Salah.html

 The questions from everyone will keep coming about "The salat like:

I wonder if someone has no limbs ,how they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone has an emergency to attend or forgets... , how are they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone is on the moon, how are they going to do it.?
I wonder if someone is at the north pole, how are they going to do it?
...etc.
All these have been taken care of in Qoran, if one is not capable or enable to be on earth or...Then they are excused. They do it in their head if they can or not at all. GOD is forgiver most merciful.

The deen is not about rules and regulations ,it is about intentions , good morals and good work first and foremost.
The other helping items are there for the ones that can.. Each needs to follow GOD s instructions to the best of their abilities.
We cannot fool GOD or look for excuses. GOD is aware of each one of us . whether we are capable, where we are and whether we hear and obey him .
Or do you think we are left without GOD distinguishing our honesty and true intentions? Therefore you do what you can to the best of your knowledge!

"The Salat" , sawm, Zakat, ...etc are a helping hand from GOD to grow our souls more for thiose who wish to come even closer to GOD.

Our views, can only look "without errors" to us, Each thinking  that their " cleverness and logic of their Qoran study" has worked.
GOD  s logic is not our logic, that is why GOD keeps sending messengers.
Is there more to come from Qoran?
I will say yes ,until GOD decides the end for all of us
If you want to do "the salat" search for your own version or carry on with what you have. You have the means to decide for yourself..
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on April 11, 2020, 03:42:25 PM

Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this:
Do you take "time frame" to mean:
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.

In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.

Peace

I agree that the duration of one Salat is given in 17:78 (From A to B(darkness of night))in addition to ratifying 11:114 where the point of time when Salat is due (At A which  is close to night) is given.

If we don't have a standard duration or time length of a Salat then how do we shorten it ?

4:101 If you are mobilized in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten the contact prayer, if you fear that the ingrates will try you. The ingrates are to you a clear enemy.












Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on April 11, 2020, 04:45:35 PM
peace GL,


The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.



Peace Wakas

So do you mean the starting point of Salat is as soon as Sun touches the horizon if you mean "duluk al shams" as rubbing of sun?

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 11, 2020, 08:21:49 PM
1) Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran. To clarify: this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon

2) To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night

Above 1 & 2 are your research for Salat Fajr and Isha respectively...

Subsequently First flaw is you have mentioned Sun in  no. 1 and not at all mentioned sun in no 2 ... Twilights are three types of three periods depend on the visibility... .. So better include "any part of Sun disappears" identical to no.1 rather than state merely twilight... if one tenth of the sun disappeared  no one can say that is Night or Day.. Can we?

.........

Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.

Above is your claim that QURAN say so....
If that is right then it should befit for every circumstance when we consider timing related activities... For example Fasting...

When God ordered us to fast?
2:187 explains it with one of the crystal clear manifest verses..
According to it..  When the white thread from/of Fajr appears stop eating and drinking (and all what is not allowed while fasting).. Note here the verse 2:187 doesn't say when some part of physical sun appears then stop.. Clearly not the case.. And to end the fasting Ila Lail (not relevant for this topic, so I discard)...

So according to Quran it only allows as I have many times stated in this forum having sex is only an act in the night of fasting and not during day... .thats indisputable.. 2:187 ..
But unfortunately for waqas.. Night is untill any part of Sun apears.. That is to say Sunrise...
So my long felt question is does Allah allow having sex untill any part of Sun appears while fasting? while clearly saying sex is at night of fasting?  So what is night? If we take until sun rise then prove me that I can't have sex until sunrise while fasting...

Don't say this is not relevant to your topic salat timing... Of course relevant coz your claim of twilight as part of night as well twilight ends sunrise ...

Is Quran contradicts or your understanding or mine for that matter?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 11, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow

---------------

Above is your claim.. Salat is a constant time period.. For example from sunset to darkness of night... Or darkness to sunrise...

That's impossible..
For example if you do Salat darkness untill sunrise and complete Salat daily,  then how would you praise the Lord before sunrise as it is ordered to praise Lord 20:130 etc... If you are busy with Salat until sunrise how would you praise Lord other than Salat?
Also if you are busy from darkness to to sunrise in Salat constantly, then how would you recite quran at dawn...?
Coz that period is completely utilized for Salat
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on April 11, 2020, 11:13:57 PM
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow

---------------

Above is your claim.. Salat is a constant time period.. For example from sunset to darkness of night... Or darkness to sunrise...

That's impossible..
For example if you do Salat darkness untill sunrise and complete Salat daily,  then how would you praise the Lord before sunrise as it is ordered to praise Lord 20:130 etc... If you are busy with Salat until sunrise how would you praise Lord other than Salat?
Also if you are busy from darkness to to sunrise in Salat constantly, then how would you recite quran at dawn...?
Coz that period is completely utilized for Salat

Peace Jkhan

I think we can praise and magnify God with or without salat. If you recite Quran in Salah there are many verses to praise,glorify,magnify God. For example chapter 1 which is usually recited starts with God's praise.

17:110 Say, "Call on God or call on the Gracious. Whichever it is you call on, to Him are the best names." Do not be loud/public in your contact prayer, nor quiet/private; but seek a path in between.

17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

And we can praise god any time of the day even if we are not performing Salah.

21:19 To Him is whoever is in the heavens and in the earth. Those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.
21:20 They glorify in the night and the day, they do not cease.

50:39 So be patient to what they are saying, and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
50:40 From the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

52:48 You shall be patient for the judgment of your Lord, for you are in Our sights, and glorify the praise of your Lord when you get up.
52:49 Also during the night glorify Him, and at the setting of the stars.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 12, 2020, 12:19:54 AM
Peace Jkhan

I think we can praise and magnify God with or without salat. If you recite Quran in Salah there are many verses to praise,glorify,magnify God. For example chapter 1 which is usually recited starts with God's praise.

17:110 Say, "Call on God or call on the Gracious. Whichever it is you call on, to Him are the best names." Do not be loud/public in your contact prayer, nor quiet/private; but seek a path in between.

17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

And we can praise god any time of the day even if we are not performing Salah.

21:19 To Him is whoever is in the heavens and in the earth. Those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.
21:20 They glorify in the night and the day, they do not cease.

50:39 So be patient to what they are saying, and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
50:40 From the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

52:48 You shall be patient for the judgment of your Lord, for you are in Our sights, and glorify the praise of your Lord when you get up.
52:49 Also during the night glorify Him, and at the setting of the stars.

You didn't get my point I presume ... We all know we can praise God other than Salat at any time or even the times which God specify....

But Salat time fixed and mandatory act and is not merely praising God...

My question was how to do Salat and irregular praising at the same time...

GID orders to praise His name before the rising of Sun... This is not Salat for sure..
Then how can we keep praying untill sunrise... We never be able to take before surmising as praising time of God.. But we do Salat that of course part of praising the Lord but not Salat...

Can we consider 20:130 to be salat then?  If no then be constant in logic

Can fasting of Ramadan  and fasting of haj or 60 days equal... Things are different
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 12, 2020, 12:24:13 AM
peace s1111,

If we don't have a standard duration or time length of a Salat then how do we shorten it ?

I agree there is an expectation from the model/exemplar we have in The Quran but in my personal opinion we should bear in mind it may vary from individual to individual. For example, one could observe a very short salat in comparison to their usual duration (whatever that may be).

Practical example:
usual salat 25-35mins
shortened salat 1-24mins

In other words, in my opinion, it depends on what the person/group usually does.

Quote
So do you mean the starting point of Salat is as soon as Sun touches the horizon if you mean "duluk al shams" as rubbing of sun?

(salat al isha)
Theoretically yes it could mean either, i.e. sun first touches the horizon or sunset (sun below horizon). So one could apply whichever as I find either understanding perfectly acceptable. As I have mentioned in my articles this understanding can compliment "salat al fajr", quote:

"If we consider one undertaking 'salat al-fajr' (the salat of/at dawn) then it is easy to realise one may crossover timewise into some point after sunrise, due to concentration/focus and/or finishing recitation/reading etc. In other words, going from "before the rising of the sun" (i.e. dawn) to after the sun's rising, i.e. "edges of the daytime" in this instance.
Thus, the "edges of the daytime" could be incorporated under the 'salat al-fajr' and 'salat al-3sha' periods, especially so if one wished to extend these periods in length."

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 12, 2020, 12:57:17 AM
peace jkhan,

Firstly it is clear you have not read the article carefully as you seemed to have missed this point:

Quote
Please note "quran al fajr (reading/recitation (of) the dawn)" occurs at the same time as "salat al fajr" and are taken as equivalent in my understanding, proving a simple explanation as to what timed-salat of the mumineen involves [see article for more detail and other verses which back this up (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm)].

Further, it seems you have not read the following articles which are linked to from this salat timings article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

In brief, "SaBiH" is a very wide concept and can encompass many things. Same goes for "THiKR".

As I have mentioned before my preference is not to answer questions that are already in the articles. In case you or anyone wonders why I didn't reply to them. If people don't wish to read them that's up to them.


Re: 2:187
It's simple. One begins abstinence at morning twilight, and then it's immediately time for salat al fajr (which lasts until the sun first appears above the horizon) so there is no time for sex in the scenario you mentioned.




Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on April 12, 2020, 01:24:20 AM
You didn't get my point I presume ... We all know we can praise God other than Salat at any time or even the times which God specify....

But Salat time fixed and mandatory act and is not merely praising God...

My question was how to do Salat and irregular praising at the same time...

GID orders to praise His name before the rising of Sun... This is not Salat for sure..
Then how can we keep praying untill sunrise... We never be able to take before surmising as praising time of God.. But we do Salat that of course part of praising the Lord but not Salat...

Can we consider 20:130 to be salat then?  If no then be constant in logic

Can fasting of Ramadan  and fasting of haj or 60 days equal... Things are different


Yes salat is not merely for praising god. But praising is a part of it as you can see from  17:110-111

17:110 Say: "Call on God or call on the Almighty; by whichever you call on, to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your contact prayer, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

Similarly remembering God is a purpose of Salat

20:14 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the contact prayer for My remembrance."

But that  does not mean we don't remember God other time.

4:103 So when you are done with the contact prayer, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. When you are relieved, you shall hold the contact prayer; the contact prayer for those who acknowledge is a scheduled event
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 12, 2020, 01:45:25 AM
peace jkhan,.


Re: 2:187
It's simple. One begins abstinence at morning twilight, and then it's immediately time for salat al fajr (which lasts until the sun first appears above the horizon) so there is no time for sex in the scenario you mentioned.

You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared... Do you breakfast first or Salat when you see Sun set...
Or just drink water at the sight of sunset and continue to pray until all twilights are over that's almost 90 mints... So stay more 90 mints in hunger...  Then eat and drink as usual... That's too much of asking...
Or like  conventional people delay Salat by 20 mints during fasting.. That won't work according to what you claim of timing...

How would one come to know that sun is risen while praying Fajr to stop or complete Salat...
So his or her concentration will be sunrising... It's hard to know minimum half an hour to know exactly whether sun is risen or not even on a clear day if you are inside..  Or else you should repeat daily same thing to guess we have spent this much time..
How one would know exactly the sun is set of portion is hidden before he or she start pray isha ...

Aren't these too much of stress on believers?  While God says He wants make things easy for us...

Lol.. Just with curiosity.. Do you really practice in this manner it you just found out it is the way...


@ s1111...
I am sorry.. You are not getting me...  Salat has fixed time and waqas claim it is continuing from one point to another.. That's why I brought it...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 12, 2020, 03:37:10 AM
You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared... Do you breakfast first or Salat when you see Sun set...
Or just drink water at the sight of sunset and continue to pray until all twilights are over that's almost 90 mints... So stay more 90 mints in hunger...  Then eat and drink as usual... That's too much of asking...
Or like  conventional people delay Salat by 20 mints during fasting.. That won't work according to what you claim of timing...

How would one come to know that sun is risen while praying Fajr to stop or complete Salat...
So his or her concentration will be sunrising... It's hard to know minimum half an hour to know exactly whether sun is risen or not even on a clear day if you are inside..  Or else you should repeat daily same thing to guess we have spent this much time..
How one would know exactly the sun is set of portion is hidden before he or she start pray isha ...

Aren't these too much of stress on believers?  While God says He wants make things easy for us...

Lol.. Just with curiosity.. Do you really practice in this manner it you just found out it is the way...


@ s1111...
I am sorry.. You are not getting me...  Salat has fixed time and waqas claim it is continuing from one point to another.. That's why I brought it...

Peace..

Salat is never equal to anytime remembering and praising God.. otherwise God doesn't need to say leave business and Hasten for salat...we can do business and remember God and praise God... Can't we?
Why God call Salat is time fixed and giving it's timing in verse 11:114 and 17:78...

After all by salat and normal remembering all Zikr of Allah...
Doing something at the time what God ordered has a huge difference rather than doing at our convenience.... It's commitment and shear obedience..

Salat,  saabih,  and mere zikr all different... For Salat God says to be clean and not for Saabih and mere zikr... Never told not to near but for Salat...

** For Salat God has given Timing only three as per my thorough understanding...

** For saabih God has given certain timing.. Many a specified time... Example 20:130, 50:39-40, 52:48-49 etc..but not kithab mawkuth...

** For mere Zikr of Allah no timing, any time of our choice....

God says those are the believers who establish Salat and end up as successful and in Janna. 23:1-10.. One example..

So given timing shouldn't collide with Salat and saabih since both Salat and saabih not same... . But it really collides according what waqas explained.

If one says above ** points are same... I doubt he or she understood Quran ...
Even malaika do saabih and not Salat... No evidence....

Ponder if 17:78 is Isha salat...  God could have explained in 17:78 the timing of Fajr as well in the following manner... Establish Salat Duluki shams (sun set) to Ghashak Lail (darkness of night)  and from white thread of Fajr to sunrise... But God was not interested in any such explanation.. But only explained One salat... For waqas that is Isha of his choice but for me it is middle salat...  But remember God didn't skip Fajr Salat in 11:114 ...explained both Salat in one verse.. But strangely again explained in 17:78... That's far-fetching... Beyond reality... Ask everyone to Self why God explained additionally isha Salat if 17:78 is isha while we can clearly Know Salat isha time by verse 11:114..

God says when you rise up, sabih the name of your Lord.. Is it salah though it has a time. .No ...

With all above I deduce salat has three fixed timing... Hope anyone would ponder on my understanding and compare with Quran
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on April 12, 2020, 04:00:24 AM
You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...

Rephrasing what you said to show how illogical and self-contradictory your statement is:

Quote
You mean sex is allowed while abstaining but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that


Quote
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Thanks but we don't even need salat-timing to know this as Quran says abstinence begins from the white thread of dawn/fajr. It just so happens the way I interpret it perfectly coincides with this practice anyway.



Quote
Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared

Rather than making a baseless claim about what my understanding is please quote what I have actually said.

It's simple. Abstinence is till the night (which begins when the sun is below the horizon). One would likely be doing ablution about this time anyway thus having a drink of water is rather simple, thus if one wishes to end their abstinence then observe salat al isha that is fine in my opinion. If one wishes to end their abstinence after salat al isha that is also fine in my opinion. There is no right or wrong for this issue as per Quran. Rather than making baseless/subjective objections please present some actual Quranic evidence to the contrary.

What is rather amusing is that you seem to be making out these are problematic issues when these alleged issues would be present in every understanding.
But perhaps I'm wrong and maybe your "thorough understanding" has no issues whatsoever. If so please create your own thread with your own alleged "thorough understanding" for all to see.


Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on April 14, 2020, 11:06:23 PM
Peace  all

Below is a small excerpts of waqas's article...

Why The Quran has redundant and potentially misleading repitition is not discussed by the author, e.g. why mention Fajr twice. From my experience, 20:130 is a frequent cause of issues for those advocating 5 salat daily from Quran

Why you ask others why Fajr is repeated twice while you failed to answer still why salat Isha is repeated twice while Fajr once ?

To be clear if in fact the starting point of salat Isha is at the Setting point of Sun and Fajr finishes at the sunrise..

Then... God would have stated without any ambiguity simply in 11:114 Establish Salat At the TWO Ends of Night... What is two ends of night just before sunrise... And just after sunset.. But wa zulafan minal lail....  (but nearness portions of Night)... No need to bring Day into picture while Salat is during night...

If sunrise and sunset can be two ends of Day why can't it be two ends of Night?

Coz the main issue is sunrise and sunset is neither two ends of Day nor Two ends of Night... Two ends are two twilights periods... But you must be wondering But why God called the Two Ends of Day (Nahar) while the period of Salat is within night... Coz two ends only belong to Nahar (Day)  and not for Night.. Twilights are part of Day and not night.. ...
Even one can claim..
*Sunrise is One End of Night
*Sunset is One End of Day..

Both sunrise and sunset cannot be Ends of Day only OR Night only...
Coz untill the Sun  rise it was night.. And coz until the sunset it was Day...
So logically they should belong to both Day and night and not solely to Day...
If in fact the salat Isha and Fajr are as per waqas after sunset and before sunrise respectively then God would have explained with best of explanations... How?...

Establish salat in two ends of ENTIRE TWILIGHTS ...
Instead no need 17:78 and 11:114 and complicate people.... 

But God's instructions is different... And much clear... ...

Three Salat is manifest.... You Can't GUARD Salat by OMITING one salat Daily (if two) .. You Can't perform Salat EXTRA (if five) while Salat is intentionally TIME FIXED by God...how you change time fixed to our convenience.. Nothing works but only instructions of God..

Choose the right option my fellow brothers and sisters... Explore and verify and follow yourself what you feel guided to you... Coz it's a daily act ...not just informative topic of Quran .
 
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: ths on October 13, 2020, 03:58:42 AM
Salaam Wakas

Can you explain how you interpret multiple zulaf in this passage:

Quote
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11:114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.

If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see

(http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran-night-day.jpg)
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on October 13, 2020, 07:38:12 AM
peace ths,

Highlights in red:

Quote from: Wakas
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11:114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.

Quote from: ths
If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see

From the above I'm not sure if you consider twilights to be part of the night, hence the confusion. I do based on the evidence in Quran, thus I am referring to parts of the night that are somewhat distinguishable from each other, e.g.
1) morning twilight
2) evening twilight
3) dark night (i.e. minimal/no twilight).


Background:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991))
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: ths on October 13, 2020, 08:19:07 AM
Ok so the difference is that you consider the darkness of the night to be the third zulfah. My issue with that is that zulf mainly refers to closeness, proximity. So I'd translate 11.114 as "the two edges of the day and the close points of the night". Why add that here if the sunrise and sunset are already close to the night?
The night is close just before dawn and just after the sun rises above the horizon. It's also close at the 'rubbing' of the sun (https://img.xcitefun.net/users/2014/07/359040,xcitefun-sunset-beach-3.jpg) at sunset and just after the sun has dipped below the horizon (https://blog.weatherops.com/hubfs/red_sunset.jpg#keepProtocol). But these are the two edges of the day. Why add a note about closeness of night? It seems redundant to me, and I don't see more than 2 edges to the day in this scenario.

And I have the same problem with the plural of tarf. The commandment in 11.114 to pray at the two sides/edges of the day makes sense. But the commandment to Muhammad to glorify at the a6raf al-nahar in 20:130 makes no sense to me.

The only explanation I can give for zulafan including the darkness of the night is that it doesn't mean closeness, but advancement forward. This is another definition offered in the dictionaries. So zulafan would be rendered 'the advancements/progressions of the night'. This is supported by the use of ZLF in several verses where the word qareeb is already there.
34.37: وَمَا أَمْوَالُكُمْ وَلَا أَوْلَادُكُم بِالَّتِي تُقَرِّبُكُمْ عِندَنَا زُلْفَى
39.3: إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى

It's possible that these verses mean 'brought close to God to a near position'. But QRB already means to bring close. So these could be rendered 'brought close to God in an advanced position'.

I'm still chewing on this, not fully satisifed with any of these theories
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on October 13, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
The issue you raise is answered in the linked to explanation below.

Quote
Background:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991))
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11:114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 17:78.

So, as you can see, 17:78 AND 11:114 are needed together for clarification and to confirm a time-range.

That's why I linked to it.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: ths on October 14, 2020, 03:23:32 AM
Ok but it doesn't actually provide an explanation of what the edges are. You are simply stating that there are many edges to the day since the word is plural, and 17:78 defines those edges as sunrise and sunset.

Quote
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11:114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 17:78.


My question is: what are the other edges then? Because I can only think of sunrise and sunset.

And the same with zulaf. You state:

Quote
In 11:114, 'zulafun' is plural (i.e. three or more near/close/adjacent parts of the night). Now, lets use the minimum criteria for plural usage (i.e. 3), this 3 adjacent parts are to be used for the 2 salat (i.e. fajr & isha).

One example...

The time-range of fajr-salat = one adjacent part of night (twilight) until full sunrise (i.e. sun is fully above horizon)

The number of near/close/adjacent parts of the night used for fajr-salat = one.

The time-range of isha-salat = from rubbing of the sun (i.e. part going below the horizon), including twilight (one adjacent part) AND early night (another adjacent part).

You see, whatever salat is, one may be so focused that one doesn't realise the time and you enter the early part of the night (this is after twilight) THUS the plural criteria (i.e. 3 near/close/adjacent parts have been used altogether for the 2 salat). One adjacent part for fajr and two for isha, giving three.

To my understanding, you have one adjacent part of the night at fajr before the sun is fully up. And you have another at sunset. Once it is dark outside then this is night, not 'a close part of the night.'


Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?

And lastly, I've updated that image to reflect my understanding of salat timings. Do you agree with this? It corresponds very nicely with the reference to birds knowing their salat, as the two significant timings of bird song are called dawn chorus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_chorus_(birds)) and evening, or dusk chorus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662407/)
(https://i.imgur.com/UvRfAuv.jpg)
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on October 15, 2020, 01:22:16 PM
Quote
Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?

In my article I clearly state the verses: "11:114, 17:78, 24:58..."

I'm not against it starting at the full darkness just prior to morning twilight as it's not like its an exact science, i.e. it's not like everyone knows the exact second when dark night ends and when morning twilight begins. It's a guide, an exemplar. In practical terms I do not see why it would be started at dark night  because it's dark, more difficult to see where one is going and since reading of Quran is likely involved (depending on your view of the regular/timed salat of the mumineen) then being able to see the text helps.


Your updated pic does not conflict with anything I wrote. Please read what I wrote, quote:

Quote
Two common interpretations have been to take "duluk al-shams" as "sunset" or "sinking/rubbing/pressing of the sun" (i.e. from when the lower edge of the sun disc rubs/touches the horizon). I have personally swayed between these two understandings. The primary signification of DLK is rubbing, and if this is coupled with 20:130 wherein it says "before the setting/departing of the sun" then this would fit. In other words, "duluk al-shams" can mean when the sun's lower edge rubs the horizon BEFORE sunset.
If we consider one undertaking 'salat al-fajr' (the salat of/at dawn) then it is easy to realise one may crossover timewise into some point after sunrise, due to concentration/focus and/or finishing recitation/reading etc. In other words, going from "before the rising of the sun" (i.e. dawn) to after the sun's rising, i.e. "edges of the daytime" in this instance.
Thus, the "edges of the daytime" could be incorporated under the 'salat al-fajr' and 'salat al-3sha' periods, especially so if one wished to extend these periods in length.

Perhaps I could add a link to your pic to explain what I mean (in case anyone still doesn't get it).

THINK about it in practical terms. If one is undertaking salat al fajr do you expect to have one eye on Quran* and one eye on the horizon to make sure the sun does not cross over? Of course not. What if one is halfway through a verse do they stop as soon as they glimpse the sun might be above horizon? Of course not.

*or if you think it means prayer then do you expect to be looking down and up constantly or looking around to make sure the sun doesn't cross the horizon.

Further does anyone honestly think God, the almighty, the merciful, is going to care if you are a few mins out here or there, or you didn't start/stop at the exact time. Not the God I believe in.

Let me state again, quote:

Quote
No matter where one is in the world all societies have a morning (activity/working period) and evening time (sleep/rest period). Of course this would mean there is no set time-range for each salat in this scenario, which is not a problem in my view, and the morning and evening time-ranges in Quran can be taken as exemplars/models to follow.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Fadiva on December 10, 2020, 01:11:13 PM
Peace

So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat:

 - 2 salats with durations: from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
 - 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night: one or two salat  in this time range?

Let's sees the verses mentioned:

Here are two translations:

added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78:
Sahih International: Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun [from its meridian] until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall: Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.

Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English:

aqimi: 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb:  stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata : noun: prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki: noun: from the root of the verb: rub, polish, set/go down
ila: preposition: towards , until
ghasaqi: noun:  darkening,  end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested : to spread
layli : noun: night, darkness, lack of light

We can also have:
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata: the salat, so one salat.

the following verse is:

17.79
Sahih International: And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.

" word by word":

And from (mina: from, "coming" from) the nuit stay awake withi it  additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.

Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night

I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.

God bless you.
InshaAllah.




Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: ths on December 11, 2020, 01:39:09 AM
added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78:
Sahih International: Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun [from its meridian] until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall: Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.


Peace,

I'd say that dulook means 'the rubbing'. So the phrase 'dulook il-shams' is 'the rubbing of the sun'. Even in modern Arabic you can say 'dalaka anfih'
دلك أنفه
(he rubbed his nose).
So I interpret that phrase as this:

(http://www.androidguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/summer-sunset-293095.jpg)

I also like the fact that everyone can visibly see this by looking up at the sky. No need to be a professional astrophysicist to determine when you're supposed to pray.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Fadiva on December 11, 2020, 08:29:55 AM
Peace

So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat:

 - 2 salats with durations: from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
 - 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night: one or two salat  in this time range?

Let's sees the verses mentioned:

Here are two translations: ( you can check other translations)

added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78:
Sahih International: Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun [from its meridian] until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall: Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.

Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English:

aqimi: 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb:  stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata : noun: prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki: noun: from the root of the verb: rub, polish, set/go down
ila: preposition: towards , until, at ?
ghasaqi: noun:  darkening,  end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested : to spread
layli : noun: night, darkness, lack of light

We can also have:
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata: the salat, so one salat.

the following verse is:

17.79
Sahih International: And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.

" word by word":

And from (mina: from, "coming" from) the night stay awake withi it  additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.

Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night

I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.

God bless you.
InshaAllah.

Salam,

I asked not to post before i finish the post, but it's alright
Yes ths, i think we can interpret this way.

here the following:

2.238 :

Sahih International: Maintain (hafizou) with care the [obligatory] prayers (al salawati) and [in particular] the middle prayer (wal salati al wusta) and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.
Pickthall: Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
Shakir: Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.

Hafizou : 2nd person plural (masculine) : keep, preserve, maintain, protect
salawati : plural noun, note : the author in coran-seul.com added in brackets « 3 or more », with the plural al salawati he understood a minimum of three, it needs to be checked.
Wal : and the ; salati: translated in the singular form so not understood as a plural.
Al wusta : definite article + adjective: the middle, the intermediate, the moderating ?

Maintain/be consistent on the salawati (plural 3 or more?) and the salati the middle/moderate and stand to Allah in devoutness.

If the plural salawati means 3 or more, then there are at least 3 salats, if not the plural here means 2 but need to be clarified.
Is al salati al wusta included in the salawati ? We've got « wa » which means « and »


24.58 :

Arberry: O believers, let those your right hands own  (aymanoukoum no mention of yad) and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn (min qabli salati al fajri), and when you put off your garments at the noon (mina al zahiyrati), and after the evening prayer (wa min ba3di al salati al 3ichai)-- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.


Al fajri =>fajr: the dawn, morning, first light, beginning
al zahiyrati =>Zhor : the meridian, noon. From the root of the verb : appear, unveil
al 3ichai => 3icha :the night/dark night

In this verse, I read that there are two salats : one at/during fajr, another at/during 3icha
Those are preceded by min or mina which means from ( provenance), in, during ( if time ), at ?
I can honestly deduce that there isn't here salat at « at noon » because not mentioned and I can't say it is alluded,

2.130 :

Shakir: Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him(waçabih bihamdi rabika) before the rising of the sun (Toulou3i al chamsi) and before its setting (ghouroubiha), and during hours of the night (wamin anai al layli) do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day (wa aTrafa al nahari), that you may be well pleased

Arberry: So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise ( fa çabih) in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.

Çabih : 2nd person singular (masculine) : pray, praise, glorify
bihamdi:with praise(s)
Toulou3i : rising
ghouroud : disappearance, setting,
anai : moments approaching night ?noun : from the root of the verb : to come close to, to approach, to slow down
layli : night/dark night
aTrafa : plural noun : the author in coran-seul.com seems to understand a minimun of 3 : ends, edges
nahari:noun : translated as day (light)

One can ask the question seeing the translations : is it here about salat ?

Before the rising of the sun
before the setting of the sun
when approaching the night
ends of the day (a minimum of 3 if the plural means it)

We have also :
50.39-40
Shakir: Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
Shakir: And glorify Him in the night and after the prayers.
Arberry: So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting,
Arberry: and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the night, and at the ends of the prostrations.

As suggested by one member of this forum, it would better to know what salat is before talking about its timing because some consider praise or glorifying as salat and other not really and the count is different.
The contexts have to be taken in consideration.

And we have verse with verbs in the singular (masculine) in the whole quran, they seem to be adressed to the messenger. We must know which are exclusively for the messenger.



Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on December 20, 2020, 08:27:53 AM
peace Fadiva,

Have you read these articles:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Fadiva on February 06, 2021, 09:10:05 AM
Salam Wakas,

After reading the articles you have given and considering my knowledge in the day of today, I can't say you're wrong.
You've said there are only two salat mentioned in the Quran ( two named salat: salat al fajr and salat al icha), I read the occurences mentioning salat and several verses, in my readings I find: salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective). 

About verse 2.238, I read from different members here that wusta could mean best, which can fit.
In different occurences it can be translated as average, just, or best.

Another  observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted:

2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236.  Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and  appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowance

Any thought?

We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Iyyaka on February 18, 2021, 01:58:36 AM

Another  observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted:

2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236.  Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and  appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowance

Any thought?

We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.
Salam,

For the structure of this passage which is inside an another bigger structure see the link at page 43 from the pdf and related notes :
https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf (https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf)

Peace
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Iyyaka on February 18, 2021, 11:56:14 PM
peace Fadiva,
Have you read these articles:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you : "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2021, 02:42:09 AM
peace,

Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you : "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?

At the end of the article:

Quote
Background reading links:
An Understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 1
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 2
According to Traditional Islamic sources how many times did the earliest Muslims perform salat?
Articles and past discussions about timings: reference one :: two :: three :: four :: five :: six :: seven :: eight :: nine :: ten :: eleven :: twelve

Specifically part 11 of:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-quran.pdf

Please see the pdf version because I just realised there is a small part missing from the webpage which I will fix later.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Iyyaka on February 19, 2021, 04:13:43 AM
Ok - but not easy to find your opinion for the word l-ṣalawāti in verse [2:238]  ;) (here it is : https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966)).

So, to avoid a contradiction, you definied the meaning of the word "l-ṣalawāti" as not a reference to a ritual prayer.
You used the verse [9:99] to admit your conclusion. I think you can include the verse [2:157] too.
But the context is not the same, and it is clear in the segment [2:238-239] that God points toward ritual prayers (verse 239 is not ambiguous with the context of war like in [4:103]).

Notes 16 to 20 may help you to have a better view of the structuration of the passage D' (from verse 2:178 to verse 2:242), especially note 20 (page 65 here : https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf (https://reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf)).

NB:
I would like to take this opportunity to answer again on a point on which you questioned me (link here -> https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611227.0 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611227.0)), I quote you : "Context doesn't mention length/duration".
Yes you're right, but it is the same for charity/alms in the verse (no precise indication) [17:29] "Do not keep your hand chained to your neck, nor open it too wide, otherwise you will find yourself blamed, full of remorse."
=> Once again we find the theme of moderation, of the golden mean that at the heart of the passage D'.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2021, 01:20:36 PM
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one:

Quote
In 2:238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day"


This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of:
"The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Iyyaka on February 19, 2021, 03:04:50 PM
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one:


This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of:
"The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the remarks i made to you (Did you even click on the link i gave you ? i am not sure..).

You seems so convinced that you have analyzed all the options and come to the only valid conclusion that finally there is no place for a real debate.

Why the Quran needed to add the expression "in a day" ? I don't understand this argument and how it can "damage my initial claim".
The Quran tells you to observe carefully (imperative form) the prayers you have to perform ? how many different and obligatory ones are there ? 2 according to you but the word refers to 3 minimum. So, the question is quite simple: where is (at least) the third prayer in your reflection?

In addition, in the word "l-ṣalawāti" you find the lam of determination.
+
Verb (form III) - to guard
(2:238:1) ḥāfiẓū   Guard strictly   حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ
(6:92:22) yuḥāfiẓūna   (are) guarding   وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(23:9:5) yuḥāfiẓūna   they guard   وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(70:34:5) yuḥāfiẓūna   keep a guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
=> Note the difference in sentence structure and grammatical form between verse [2:238] and the other 3. In these three verses it is about evoking all the prayers of all believers, whereas in verse 238 it is about believers observing THE prescribed prayers.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on February 20, 2021, 01:53:24 AM
Here is the problem that  I can see with this verse:

حٰفِظوا عَلَى الصَّلَوٰتِ وَالصَّلوٰةِ الوُسطىٰ وَقوموا لِلَّهِ قٰنِتينَ

You shall consistently  guard/look after/observe... THE SALAWAT,  and/ also/especially  THE SALAT ALWASTA and devote yourselves totally to God.

What are "THE SALAWAT"?  Why mention another" THE SALAT ALWUATA" with them?  What is the meaning of "KUMU  kANITEEN"?

The "AL" in Arabic denotes something known/specific. The prophet and believers knew exactly what to Guard/ look after...consistently,Or didn t they?

Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

 One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?

The next verse will shed light on this:
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
 If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
 Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?

For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"

In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

NOTE:  With 2 prayers per day one can never have 1 Salat wusta as the numbers are always even  whether per day, per week or per year.?
GOD bless .
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Iyyaka on February 20, 2021, 12:09:38 PM

The next verse will shed light on this:
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
 If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
 Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?
For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"
In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.
Peace Good logic,

Thanks for your contribution - yes the context in [2:239] is obvious and this verse is naturally linked to the previous verse.

I add an intra-textual proof on the subject of verse 239: the expression "ʿallamakum mā takūnū taʿlamūna" is found almost identically in another verse, verse [2:151] which unambiguously deals with the common prayer performed by the prophet (pbsl).
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Fadiva on March 16, 2021, 03:39:29 AM
Salam,

True. While debating one should point all the passages he doesn't agree and give proof or at least show why his understanding is different.

Just a few points and questions:

I noticed :
 Salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).   

2.238 : where is the word "especially"? Have you read all the verses with the word wa and derive from it " And especially " ?
Why should one be more likely forget or do not a salat during the day than salat al fajri for instance?
You've mentioned because of business. But in some countries, where it's hot, one can notice that a lot of people don't open their shops or don't work until 3 or 4 p.m.

On this verse we can read salawati which seems to be a plural meaning a minimum of three and we can read
wal salati al wusta  so if we don't add a word one can understand here a minimum of 4 salats unless he proves that it it is "especially". One other can understand all the salats and the how salat should be (wusta as adjective).

And we can read: 24.58

Here one translation :
Arberry: O believers, let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn, and when you put off your garments at the noon, and after the evening prayer -- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

By just reading not deducing, salat of dawn, evening salat but "when you put off your garments at the noon".

Good logic said:
"Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

 One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?"

Why should be "in a day" In verse 2.238 the most likely? Can you explain it?

Why should one deduce from " When you put off your garments at noon", that it is a salat while it is mentioned for dawn and dusk?

I am just pointing some things.
I am trying to be as honest as possible and not saying you're right or I'm right.
But read, reread, notice, not deduce to fast we have to read all the verses.
Question yourself. We are humans, we can mistakes.

So maybe it's better the restart and take point by point the claimimgs and give proofs he you have.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: nimnimak_11 on June 18, 2021, 07:36:35 AM
Peace all

So I followed the discussion between good logic and Wakas till around page 6 of this thread and wanted to say the following:

First of all, Wakas, to me, you seemed hostile towards Good logic. You asked for feedback with such passion that you offered money, then, when feedback was given, your manner of debating was not good in my opinion.

I read Good logic's posts and yours and I think he was more justified than you (not just in the manner of debating (I reckon I would have retaliated to some of your sarcasm), but also in what was being said with regards to duluk al-shams). I did not see him necessarily pushing for something firm regarding salat overall in what I would describe as an oppressive manner, whereas I think this was true of you. He highlighted one thing that was pretty clear:

Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear. There is no need to try and force additionals after you take duluk to mean decline. By this I mean there is no need to argue that this is specifically in reference to sunset. To my interpretation of you, you were only doing this to try and make it fit with your idea of what Salat is (not just the timing of salat, but salat itself). Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved).
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on June 18, 2021, 09:49:21 AM
peace n11,

Thanks for your take but I cannot take your main point seriously, quote:
"Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear."

Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.


Quote: "Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved)."

Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once). I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: nimnimak_11 on June 19, 2021, 02:47:20 AM
Peace Wakas

It's good to hear from you and engage you in conversation again.

Quote
Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

You are right. What I was trying to convey was that if we take duluk to mean "decline", then we should take it to refer to when the sun begins to decline (which begins at noon). If we take it to mean sunset, then we have ignored all the previous points of the decline of the sun (which feels incomplete or inconsistent to me).

Quote
Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once).

Ok, but good logic's bias was of one layer, whereas I felt yours was two-fold. By this I mean a meaning had to be chosen and discussed regarding the word "duluk". Both you and good logic seemed to agree to focus on "decline". Good logic did not project anything extra. I think it was an excessive stretch to assert that the decline of the sun mentioned in 17:78 is only in reference to sunset. This is where you asked for each other for proof of who was right, whereas I think the burden of proof was exclusively on you (because good logic was being consistent with the meaning "decline" without over-stretching. You were over-stretching and thus needed to prove that this over-stretching was justified). Again, you had both agreed on the "decline" aspect of duluk.

Quote
I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

I agree that we should slot in whatever understanding/option there are and then choose whichever's most sincere to God/Good/Truth.

Simplicity is good, and I think we have to recognise that one possible reason the Quran is not clear to us at times, is because our sincerity to God is not clear/pure/unbiased/consistent for us to be worthy of such clarity. To me, we're all in a race to see who is least evil/unfair in relation to God/Truth/Goodness.

In our attempts to obtain truth/understanding from God, if we overstep, we may deprive ourselves of the correct understanding, and then end up upholding an incorrect understanding (incorrect in that we feel/think it insincere to God but uphold it anyway) which could either deprive of us of greater goods, or worse, bring us hardship. The right effect (genuine awe of existing in Existence/God) has to fall into place. It requires that we truly depend on the Godliness/Perfection/Goodness of God. We must appreciate Mercy and treat the Merciful as Merciful. Some seek to take advantage of this (Satan) and seem to try to force God's Hand (the jews in relation to Christ). Some can conceive of mercy greater than the one they attribute to God, yet they treat God as not possessing that kind of mercy. I really think that we are in a race to see who is least evil in relation to the wholly innocent of evil, and wholly good/generous/merciful.

I hope I have not written in excess Wakas. But I like sharing things about God that I think are good to share.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on June 19, 2021, 03:16:25 AM
peace n11,

No you never wrote in excess, it's all good.

The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press. I doubt you will find much disagreement on this but it doesn't matter if there is disagreement or not, what matters is out of the available options what is the result of each. Put all the options on the table and let's see which stands up to scrutiny.

I put my take out there for all to inspect and bring a clear error/flaw/contradiction/etc and as you can see in this thread nothing of significance was brought. I think the most that could be said was "X could theoretically mean something else" (this is a non-point), "I misinterpreted your article" (ok, so I added a few words to clarify it), "you haven't proven X means that" (nice but irrelevant to the complete picture working or not), "there is another phrase in Quran which could mean that (unproven implication being that this means nothing else can mean the same in Quran)" etc. These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 19, 2021, 07:31:52 AM
Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION  is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with,  I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 17:78 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11:114 ... For what reason...
11:114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar...  So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 17:78 by explaining its timing,  why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11:114 ONLY?  WHY..
IF  we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11:114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11:114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self? 

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11:114?  No Right.. Coz 11:114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 17:78 and 11:114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why?  11:114 is "zulafan minal  layl" while  17:78 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11:114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?

Peace all my believing brothers and sisters..

Since N11 has dug this topic again,  let me pose the same Question answered by anyone who take salat as two..

11:114 gives two timing of salat Fajr and isha.. (thoss who claim only two salat God prescribed, do agree with this verse)
If 11:114 explains completly the timing of Fajr and if 11:114 is enough to understand the timing of Fajr Salat, then big Question is why 11:114 is NOT enough to understand timing of Salat Isha?
Why salat isha needs to be explained by another verse 17:78 so people take dulak to meridian OR sunset..what a dilemma ?
Does God think people would understand One End Of Nahar(day) easily and the other End is tough so He might remind them with another additional verse 17:78?

Can anyone take my challenging question and reply with logic if you pray two times only so that I also be satisfied why you pray two times..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: tutti_frutti on June 19, 2021, 09:50:35 AM
peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat:

1) starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)

2) fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)

3) al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 24:58)

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding:

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 25:64

that is my understanding 😊 and of course i may be wrong

peace

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: nimnimak_11 on June 19, 2021, 01:52:43 PM
These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

Peace Wakas

Yes I agree it's not a contradiction. There are times where people have a go at what you say without the good intent of trying to gain a better understanding of salat timings (or salat itself), and there are times where they genuinely see something that's worth mentioning despite not wanting to have a go at you. I think good logic was of the latter because his self-restraint was incredible (clearly indicating his preference to not have a go at you).

Quote
The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press

To me, those words register something in relation to my idea of what salat itself is (though I did not know that that was the primary signification of DLK).

I've been reading Edip and Layth's reformist translation of the Quran (it's the only physical Quran I have) and I've seen some verses just be really forced through. By this I mean it seems to me that they've forced a meaning for a word despite it being at odds with the root of the word. It's almost like rushing to understand it, or forcing through in an oppressive manner. Though I do like their translation overall, they are too reformist/liberal. What I mean to say is that forcing things through is sometimes done in the name of progression or sensibility (despite the truth being such that those verses have not been made sensible to us yet for a reason). 

I interpreted you as determined to reach solid/sensilbe and uncontroversial conclusions and seeking reassurance, but I also interpreted you as perhaps tired/fatigued because when a genuine controversy was highlighted, I would not describe you as being welcoming towards it.

Because I interpret you this way, from my own experiences of fatigue/overwork I will suggest to you the following: Don't overwork yourself in an attempt to be sincere to God. The Bible talks about a day of rest, and death occurring where this is not done. Of course, the Quran also talks about those who transgress the Sabbath (perhaps indicating excessive rest is wrong). In an attempt to be sincere to God, I have with serious reluctance tried to really force myself to do something like religious research or philosophy, only to find myself experience what I can only describe as non-physical death. This is not an issue, but when you feel God's disapproval, it is both heartbreaking and terrifying (and I now think this was rooted in me treating God as though He was a tyrant, which is deeply unfair to God's Benevolence). The next time I reached/rubbed such a point, fear held me back. But I am oscillating between rest and work trying to raise standards in a God approved way. I don't want to transgress the Sabbath in any direction.

Consider 17:29 if what I've said has registered with you (my interpretation of you could be wrong, so I don't know if what I've said will register with you or not).
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 19, 2021, 06:50:46 PM
peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat:

1) starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)

2) fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)

3) al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 24:58)

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding:

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 25:64

that is my understanding 😊 and of course i may be wrong

peace

Peace Tfruti...
Be patient with my lengthy reply.. 😬
Thank you for attempting to respond to my question...
As per your understanding 11:114 is two salat which are Isha and Fajr.. Well thank you.. That's what I also understand...
Then May I know what Salat is 17:78? Just for your knowledge my knowledge and for verification...
You say that 17:78 is not decline of sun at midday / noon.. 
But still at least once a week you perform Salat at Mid day(Wusta).. Based on what brother ?  Is it based on chapter Jumma?  Why can't it be at dawn or Fajr during haj as waqas article says.. Or even every year as traditional Eid gathering.. Why every Friday..

So it clearly indicates you have taken a salat at midday from nowhere coz 17:78 is not sun decline at midday for you but still a salat timing there beyond Quran verses.. .. That you need to explain for sure..

So you didn't answer my question literally ... So directly you accepted 11:114 are two salat isha and Fajr.. Timing is explained for both in one verse,  and failed to explain which Salat is 17:78 ... If you take by chance 17:78 as isha.. Then God failed to elaborate the other salat in 11:114 and its timing separate ..

Further.. I don't agree salat is long long hours... Look brother... Fajr Salat you said when the first sign of light appears at dawn.. (Ok if you are good enough to see the first light at dawn every day)..  Okay.. Then how long it last?  In my country max 1 hour these days.. Then sun rise.. Can we pray even after sun rise? 11:114 rejects it totally..
Then isha..  If you think once the sun set and long hours at night.. I don't agree.. Not my assumption but Quranic verses tones indicates it.. Read carefully the verse 24:58 ... Those children are allowed to Mingle before isha Salat.. But after isha Salat need permission..  When will this isha Salat be over for them to take permission? Literally after isha Salat and before Fajr Salat is one time. But God has pointed as two timing.. So clearly it shows there is long break between these two salat.. But if you pray long hours break between isha and Fajr won't be much..
You can thasbeeh God long hours as every individual wishes.. But Salat has timing...
In addition after isha Salat privacy.. That's really has meaning.. Even in 2:187 it says the nights of fasting is allowed for you near your women... So long Salat won't make sense practically... Don't compare specific moments depends on situation.. Chapter 73 is totally targeted to a group for specific reason. 

Note...  Practical issues of long Salat according to Quran...

If one take isha Salat once the sun goes down it means whenever sun set the privacy also comes into effect.. So it shows children should take dinner before sunset (or alone) or else they should take permission after isha Salat.. Also after isha Salat mingling is not permited..is it?  So..practically it becomes lot harder.. But if Isha Salat is after one or two hours later the sun set, this issue won't arise.. But if one takes sun set for starting of isha then unfortunately from the moment of sunset to sunrise is literally period of privacy forever. That's bizarre..
That's my understanding brother.. If it doesn't have meaning you can always negate in rationale manner..

Btw for me within Quran 17:78 is none other than decline of sun at midday... That best suit within Quran . I don't see anyone who explained with utmost logic to claim sunset.. Just assumptions with dictionaries.

Dear Tuti but I am not against what you do.. I am only taking Quran to explain...
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: tutti_frutti on June 23, 2021, 10:51:02 AM
peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)... 

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and  that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 23, 2021, 07:18:34 PM
peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)... 

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and  that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace

Peace brother...

Thank you...
I don't get whether you answered my questions or you keep expressing your view..anyway let God guide us to straight path...

BTW.. Tuti don't complicate chapter 73... Long nights or 1/3 of nights etc is optional at any point of night.. Aren't they? It further says to get up from sleep coz one cover his blankets while sleeping.. It's not isha Fajr but extreme night.. To wake up.. It is not Salat.. Try to grasp that with deep sense... As I have explained in this forum before.. God has used word TILL in the verse 17:78 .. So when in a verse TILL is used it has definite time period...
How can God say TILL in one verse and say in another verse stand whole night or portion of night or one third... total contradiction.. So it clearly defines that is not Salat but another...
Why to perform salat beyond ILA ghashak AL Lail .. If you can pray beyond ghashak Al Lail why not one can pray beyond sun rise.  Why break rules defined..
Just clearly read 11:114 and 17:78 and ponder these two verses have defined timing.. Do within it and not before or after.. Salat is time fixed.. Would you like to pray before sun set.. If not why opposite brother..
God is perfect..

Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: tutti_frutti on June 24, 2021, 01:33:18 PM
peace jkhan

thank you for your reply

no where do i see in chapter 73 does The God mention anything about the night being “optional”, so we cant say it is “optional”

“till” yes of course denotes a time .. for me its till the deepest of the night … and the night does not end at 11 pm but ends when light comes in yeah? and that would be fajr right? so the “till” i understand does goes on throughout the night with no mention of when to stop but to its deepest moments .. could be to the beginning of fajr
the words used (based on translation) is “till the darkness/deepest? of the night” … and as i think night ends with fajr then for each one to think about when they end their salat wih His permission and do whatever they can to push throughout the night maximum in prayer

i dont see anything in Quran about “little did they sleep” being about covering or blankets … so why would we assume its about covering themselves in blankets? i believe He said, and i just paraphrase my understanding of the verse, they forgoe their sides seeking their Lord

i dont look for “deep” meanings tho .. perhaps i am wrong but i try to take the Book at face value and i try not to interpet and just follow what is mentioned literally as i understand the verses (tho of course my understanding of the verses could be wrong and flawed and i could be clueless)
 
thank you very much jkhan for the share

peace my friend 😊
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 24, 2021, 05:57:44 PM
peace jkhan

thank you for your reply

no where do i see in chapter 73 does The God mention anything about the night being “optional”, so we cant say it is “optional”

“till” yes of course denotes a time .. for me its till the deepest of the night … and the night does not end at 11 pm but ends when light comes in yeah? and that would be fajr right? so the “till” i understand does goes on throughout the night with no mention of when to stop but to its deepest moments .. could be to the beginning of fajr
the words used (based on translation) is “till the darkness/deepest? of the night” … and as i think night ends with fajr then for each one to think about when they end their salat wih His permission and do whatever they can to push throughout the night maximum in prayer

i dont see anything in Quran about “little did they sleep” being about covering or blankets … so why would we assume its about covering themselves in blankets? i believe He said, and i just paraphrase my understanding of the verse, they forgoe their sides seeking their Lord

i dont look for “deep” meanings tho .. perhaps i am wrong but i try to take the Book at face value and i try not to interpet and just follow what is mentioned literally as i understand the verses (tho of course my understanding of the verses could be wrong and flawed and i could be clueless)
 
thank you very much jkhan for the share

peace my friend 😊

Peace  brother...

I wish God guide us and end this disagreement towards the exact truth... Let me and you and every believer choose the straight path.. There is no path than straight path for believers..

I am afraid you don't get what I mean...
Just look at the verses carefully again and again .  Why they can't be optional.. He can wake up little or half or even long night.. Don't forget God Himself says night is for sleep and rest and according to that only body is created.. Never to go against nature..
So if He choose half instead of long night.. It is fine and optional .. Coz God clearly given the option.. Even if he choose lesser than half then also option.. When God has clearly given option why you say no. .. No authority for bro.. Sorry..

Further.. Remember this chapter begining verses manifestly addressing the Messenger who received the Quran.. Not for us.. God talks specific purpose...
Why not understand the first verse in chapter 73... For you what does it mean?.. For me it says to Messenger to Get up from his sleep while he is wrapped up...

Accordingly.. First option isha cannot be after getting up from wraped up situation of sleep..
Second option.. Fajr.. It can be.. But clearly no.. When you get up at Fajr there won't be enough time left to be called long night... When someone get up at Fajr can there be long night  or half of it or less.. No.. Anyway every believer has to get up for Fajr Salat..
So dear it is not Salat.. Try to grasp..

Further.. I reiterate.. God clearly indicated three times for privacy.. So brother after isha and before Fajr are two time period.. If one prays from isha to Fajr then it is meaningless... Two prayers at two point of time.. In between clear rest.. Night we have made for you to sleep and rest.. If you don't sleep everyday sufficiently then needless to say how body reacts.. God says you have much work during day.. If you don't get enough sleep at night no-one would be able to work during day.. Those who Change nature only will suffer...

God had a purpose for messenger on chapter 73.. Try and understand the purpose of chapter 73 first few verses..

In addition.. True believers do spend extra little time at night time in remembering God.. Believers won't sleep up until our Sun rises like most do on weekends ... They would surely get up well before Fajr time..  Coz Fajr prayer and reading Quran all good works.. Even before sleep in parts of the night can Remember God..
But short and sweet.. Sleep and rest is mandatory everyday... That derives a person's mood for comfortable day...

But no need to sleep long nights... But I hope believers sleep what is enough.. I sleep at least 5 hours at night.. I don't regret in doing so.  Coz my body says it can't bear.

Don't make things complicated by going against nature... God doesn't expect that from us...
If you have major exam within month you may keep awakening longer at night.. that's hard.. That's worthy for a purpose.. Same Muhamed had a special task and he was advised to be awaken... He had got a mission.. No mission every day...

Note: pls Tuti let's stick to topic.. Coz brother Waqas doesn't prefer going off-topic.. That's true.. Long hours of Salat is not topic...

Further.. If in 17:78 had God used "Ghuribath shams" instead Dulak  then I do agree with two salat.. Even if it is mentioned Ghuribath it can only be a meaningless verse.. Since timing is already in 11:114..

Whatever fir me Salat three times is perfect in perfect QURAN
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: uq on June 27, 2021, 01:21:24 PM
Peace Wakas,

Don't forget the other meaning of "zulaf" being "twilight periods."

This lets us translate "wa-zulafan min al-layl" as "and at twilight periods of the night."

As far as I understand, all definitions of "layl" given in Classical Arabic dictionaries begin after sunset.

So, whatever your understanding of Salah is, it must continue after sunset.

God knows best.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Wakas on June 28, 2021, 12:47:54 AM
peace uq,

Yes "twilight periods of the night" is ok also, but I have a slight preference for "proximal parts of the night" or "proximities of the night". They are similar.

And everything else you said doesn't conflict with what I wrote.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on June 28, 2021, 02:11:04 AM
My  questions:

1-When was the prophet given the command to "Aquimi The Salat"?
2-Did he know the details  of "the Salat"?
3- What,how and how many ?
4- Was "The Salat" done/existed" before  the prophet?
5- Can any research/es of this be found and what evidence do they contain?
...And so on to get to the truth of "The Salat".

This where I am spending my time trying to unravel, up to now I am here:

!Given its-The Salat- importance in Muslim worship, it follows
that the origins of salāt should be widely researched in the modern, secular study of Islam. This, however, is not the case. Relatively little has been published on the subject. Most of the detailed history comes from hadith narrations and biased documents that have no concrete evidence.

There are numerus thesis that always end in disappointment for me . The further they go ,the less evidence on finds. like for example-And this is just one of many -:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Hienz,%20J%20-%20The%20Origins.pdf

Perhaps the common theme is that Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians also had "The Salat" in some form or other...

Qoran, for a very good reason, remains the solid source that can highlight the inconstancies of  any research.. However , Qoran can also add the "test" factor that GOD intended  in it to sort out the true convictions and motives of GOD s servants.

While one should never give up the search for their"truth", one needs to trust in GOD Alone and see where Qoran takes them with this subject.
Each can only answer individually for their sincerity towards and understanding of GOD s instructions in the message.

For me the "sirat Al Mustaqueem"-straight path - of leading one s life comes first .One should be honest with themselves and only do what they understand best for themselves. Differences in understanding are the norm and GOD is the sole judge .
Why did GOD not clear everything up for everyone to clearly see is obvious FOR THIS LIFE AS HUMANS- for the test-..
What do you make of how,what and when of"The Salat " according to Qoran"?
That is what you should do.
GOD bless you all.
Peace
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jemby97 on June 30, 2021, 03:54:22 AM
My  questions:

1-When was the prophet given the command to "Aquimi The Salat"?
2-Did he know the details  of "the Salat"?
3- What,how and how many ?
4- Was "The Salat" done/existed" before  the prophet?
5- Can any research/es of this be found and what evidence do they contain?
...And so on to get to the truth of "The Salat".

This where I am spending my time trying to unravel, up to now I am here:

!Given its-The Salat- importance in Muslim worship, it follows
that the origins of salāt should be widely researched in the modern, secular study of Islam. This, however, is not the case. Relatively little has been published on the subject. Most of the detailed history comes from hadith narrations and biased documents that have no concrete evidence.

There are numerus thesis that always end in disappointment for me . The further they go ,the less evidence on finds. like for example-And this is just one of many -:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Hienz,%20J%20-%20The%20Origins.pdf

Perhaps the common theme is that Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians also had "The Salat" in some form or other...

Qoran, for a very good reason, remains the solid source that can highlight the inconstancies of  any research.. However , Qoran can also add the "test" factor that GOD intended  in it to sort out the true convictions and motives of GOD s servants.

While one should never give up the search for their"truth", one needs to trust in GOD Alone and see where Qoran takes them with this subject.
Each can only answer individually for their sincerity towards and understanding of GOD s instructions in the message.

For me the "sirat Al Mustaqueem"-straight path - of leading one s life comes first .One should be honest with themselves and only do what they understand best for themselves. Differences in understanding are the norm and GOD is the sole judge .
Why did GOD not clear everything up for everyone to clearly see is obvious FOR THIS LIFE AS HUMANS- for the test-..
What do you make of how,what and when of"The Salat " according to Qoran"?
That is what you should do.
GOD bless you all.
Peace


Salam Good Logic,

You have ask several very pertinent questions that I feel and agreed that it is worth asking and discussing further.

Can you open up a new thread on these questions and issues.

Thank you.

Joe Alam
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on June 30, 2021, 05:09:14 AM
May be in the future.
I will not be able to do it justice so far as there are a number of issues still  open.
Of course ,I am continuing with the Salat as per my  current understanding. My search for the above answers is  ongoing.
If I have any "new findings" of course I will declare them here. Then we can talk/discuss.

I apologise for not being ready  to do this yet.
Thank you for asking.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 30, 2021, 09:25:47 AM
My  questions:

1-When was the prophet given the command to "Aquimi The Salat"?
2-Did he know the details  of "the Salat"?
3- What,how and how many ?
4- Was "The Salat" done/existed" before  the prophet?
5- Can any research/es of this be found and what evidence do they contain?
...And so on to get to the truth of "The Salat".

This where I am spending my time trying to unravel, up to now I am here:


I don't understand why you are unable to perceive it within Quran...

Just think with simple logic brother...

1... Prophet got only messages from GOd... He would have known only when he was placed the message on him... Even if he had known before hand he can't follow what is not revealed to him.. Can he as a messenger of Quran?

2... Question is not transperant.. If you ask after Quran was revealed then Yes.. If before Quran was revealed then No.. Coz he was not someone who was guided with a book and he didn't even read other scriptures.. ..

3.. . Why you so stress... Do you ask this question coz conventional Salat contains so many steps to do and those steps are not described in Quran.. Or do you want something naturally beyond what Quran explains about Salat.. Simply ponder.. Do you think Muhamed didn't understand 17:78 and 11:114? And his companions and community were not aware what these two verses explains... Don't forget they were praying after timing was given... Was the timing in these two verses too difficult for them to figure out?  If they didn't know how when and what.. How did they pray 4:103 and chapter juma.. They knew the time and they called others to sala and they left all behind..

Note... If you carefully study Quran, Salat is fully explained.. In short Salat is to be first clean and STAND and call God by His name and recite what 17:110 teaches and then magnify God as much as one wants within the timing given in 11:114 and 17:78... What else you want brother.. Do you want more while God keep it simple...

4... Why shouldn't Salat exist.. After all what is Salat.. It is prayer applauding God in given time.. Do you think messengers before Muhamed were exempted from being applauding God?  Salat is one of imperative criteria to enter jannah.. Chapter 23:1-10.. So dear brother all messengers were given basic message other than some totally relevant respective society on burning issues..

5... evidence is in the same quran which you study for years... Try to find out..

Btw... Keep doing what makes your mind happy but keep searching for truth from God's guidance..

 
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on June 30, 2021, 11:09:58 AM
 I get what you are saying about Qoran. I do not doubt that Qran has all the explanations.. This does not mean we should all understand it only one way.
I also have no doubt that "The Salat" instructed in Qoran is a connection  to GOD Alone-contact prayer- to feed our soul.
I also have no doubt that GOD helps us understand Qoran according to our deep conviction and sincerity to seek His guidance.
And GOD sends nus messengers with "bayyina-Proof- as part of our guidance.

I was talking mainly about the history of "The Salat" that GOD talks about in Qoran. History of its origin= from Abraham- to our recent days: like:
How many  did Abraham do daily?
Was there the same number daily since then? Was there any change in the number of prayers?
What did the Jews exactly do? What about the Christians? What was lost of it?
How did the early Muslims practice it? has it changed?...

I AM TRYING TO SEE HOW MUCH OF HISTORY AND RESEARCH FITS WITH QORAN?

This is what I am not able to conclude on for sure and I was saying i need more time on this to bring test the evidence of the stories research.
Hope you get me brother.
As for my evidence from Qoran, I am satisfied with what I have understood so far, which does not mean that  others will agree with it. Like you know, many differ in many things about what Qoran says.
I still hold the view that Qoran instructs "ME" to do 5 daily prayers. I have not  found any evidence that I need to change this .
Of course  my search is ongoing.  Will I be able to to pass my Lord s test of sincerity about my search when  we meet? That is my main  and most important question.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on June 30, 2021, 05:53:22 PM
I get what you are saying about Qoran. I do not doubt that Qran has all the explanations.. This does not mean we should all understand it only one way.
I also have no doubt that "The Salat" instructed in Qoran is a connection  to GOD Alone-contact prayer- to feed our soul.
I also have no doubt that GOD helps us understand Qoran according to our deep conviction and sincerity to seek His guidance.
And GOD sends nus messengers with "bayyina-Proof- as part of our guidance.

I was talking mainly about the history of "The Salat" that GOD talks about in Qoran. History of its origin= from Abraham- to our recent days: like:
How many  did Abraham do daily?
Was there the same number daily since then? Was there any change in the number of prayers?
What did the Jews exactly do? What about the Christians? What was lost of it?
How did the early Muslims practice it? has it changed?...

I AM TRYING TO SEE HOW MUCH OF HISTORY AND RESEARCH FITS WITH QORAN?

This is what I am not able to conclude on for sure and I was saying i need more time on this to bring test the evidence of the stories research.
Hope you get me brother.
As for my evidence from Qoran, I am satisfied with what I have understood so far, which does not mean that  others will agree with it. Like you know, many differ in many things about what Qoran says.
I still hold the view that Qoran instructs "ME" to do 5 daily prayers. I have not  found any evidence that I need to change this .
Of course  my search is ongoing.  Will I be able to to pass my Lord s test of sincerity about my search when  we meet? That is my main  and most important question.
GOD bless you.
Peace.



Keep praying what you prefer coz that's what your inner instincts compel you to do, not after knowing the truth though.. So it is the truth for you.. Guidance of God will make you clear in case you have chosen the wrong option.. That's between you and your Lord..

BTW.. Your question No 1-3 is about prophet not about before prophet and history...
Question no 4-5 you are asking for historical evidences...  Evidences away from Quran don't make anyone convince... I doubt that...
There are so many evidences that ritual practices were at least from Ibrahim or even before...
For example God says fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed to those before you... Before you may mean immediate and long back as well.. So brother we don't know what they fasted and hoe many they fasted.. But do what is mentioned in Quran to best of your understanding...

Similar God says in Quran to Musa 10:87 to do Salat... So it is pointless to find out how many they did.. What is the use?  Are you gonna revert to what they did or you gonna follow what Quran orders.. Find history within Quran.. That's my advise.. Why you even ask your question No 4 when clear verses like 10:87 is in Quran.. Is it not aqimi Salat?

Whatever.. keep. researching coz I don't want to divert the topic...
Note...  Can you explain from where 5 Salat you picked from limited verses of 11:114 and 17:78...so we also perceive why some of Quran followers take five salat..
This question is relevant to topic.. So you may answer pls if you wish..
Remember not to challenge you but just to grasp how you made the five salat within Quran..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on July 01, 2021, 02:50:30 AM
Peace jkhan.

First in general, and n short, we are free to take or leave GOD s deen. GOD does not force us.
 However ,people make a problem for themselves by conforming to things they doubt or do not make sense to them.
Your decision alone is required ,nobody else will bare your burden whether you rely on them or not.
GOD guides and teaches all the true believers.

Coming back to "The Salat" , I have spent years investigating many views, especially those views from the specific "Qoran alone"  brothers and sistyers. All asking " where can I find how  and when to do "The Salat" from Qoran?. Yet after giving their views most fail to find the meaning and details of their claims using Qoran, which  they were asking the exact thing  in the first place.
The only exception that had a solid argument that was coherent and used all Qoran in context about "the salat" was this-according to my research- :
https://submission.org/Where_can_we_find_Salah.html

 The questions from everyone will keep coming about "The salat like:
I wonder why not the two named Salats? Why 3 0r 5 ...etc?
I wonder if someone has no limbs ,how they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone has an emergency to attend or forgets... , how are they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone is on the moon, how are they going to do it.?
I wonder if someone is at the north pole, how are they going to do it?
...etc.
All these have been taken care of in Qoran, if one is not capable or enable to be on earth or...Then they are excused. They do it in their head if they can or not at all. GOD is forgiver most merciful.

The deen is not about rules and regulations ,it is about intentions , good morals and good work first and foremost.
The other helping items are there for the ones that can.. Each needs to follow GOD s instructions to the best of their abilities.
We cannot fool GOD or look for excuses. GOD is aware of each one of us . whether we are capable, where we are and whether we hear and obey him .
Or do you think we are left without GOD distinguishing our honesty and true intentions? Therefore you do what you can to the best of your knowledge!

"The Salat" , sawm, Zakat, ...etc are a helping hand from GOD to grow our souls more for thiose who wish to come even closer to GOD.

Our views, can only look "without errors" to us, Each thinking  that their " cleverness and logic of their Qoran study" has worked.
GOD  s logic is not our logic, that is why GOD keeps sending messengers.
Is there more to come from Qoran?
I will say yes ,until GOD decides the end for all of us
If you want to do "the salat" search for your own version or carry on with what you have. You have the means to decide for yourself..
And of course one should never give up searching and trying.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: jkhan on July 01, 2021, 06:19:39 PM
Peace jkhan.

First in general, and n short, we are free to take or leave GOD s deen. GOD does not force us.
 However ,people make a problem for themselves by conforming to things they doubt or do not make sense to them.
Your decision alone is required ,nobody else will bare your burden whether you rely on them or not.
GOD guides and teaches all the true believers.

Coming back to "The Salat" , I have spent years investigating many views, especially those views from the specific "Qoran alone"  brothers and sistyers. All asking " where can I find how  and when to do "The Salat" from Qoran?. Yet after giving their views most fail to find the meaning and details of their claims using Qoran, which  they were asking the exact thing  in the first place.
The only exception that had a solid argument that was coherent and used all Qoran in context about "the salat" was this-according to my research- :
https://submission.org/Where_can_we_find_Salah.html

 The questions from everyone will keep coming about "The salat like:
I wonder why not the two named Salats? Why 3 0r 5 ...etc?
I wonder if someone has no limbs ,how they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone has an emergency to attend or forgets... , how are they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone is on the moon, how are they going to do it.?
I wonder if someone is at the north pole, how are they going to do it?
...etc.
All these have been taken care of in Qoran, if one is not capable or enable to be on earth or...Then they are excused. They do it in their head if they can or not at all. GOD is forgiver most merciful.

The deen is not about rules and regulations ,it is about intentions , good morals and good work first and foremost.
The other helping items are there for the ones that can.. Each needs to follow GOD s instructions to the best of their abilities.
We cannot fool GOD or look for excuses. GOD is aware of each one of us . whether we are capable, where we are and whether we hear and obey him .
Or do you think we are left without GOD distinguishing our honesty and true intentions? Therefore you do what you can to the best of your knowledge!

"The Salat" , sawm, Zakat, ...etc are a helping hand from GOD to grow our souls more for thiose who wish to come even closer to GOD.

Our views, can only look "without errors" to us, Each thinking  that their " cleverness and logic of their Qoran study" has worked.
GOD  s logic is not our logic, that is why GOD keeps sending messengers.
Is there more to come from Qoran?
I will say yes ,until GOD decides the end for all of us
If you want to do "the salat" search for your own version or carry on with what you have. You have the means to decide for yourself..
And of course one should never give up searching and trying.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Peace...

Thank you...
If what is written in the link is sufficient and satisfactory for you to perform five salat a day then keep doing... For me not at all..
No more comments..
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: good logic on July 02, 2021, 03:21:38 AM
Thank you jkhan.
 May GOD also help you through these trying times of the world. and keep you guided.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
Post by: Mahdi20 on September 10, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
In the name of God

Peace wakas, peace all


The only verses which mention salat alongside a timing component are: 11:114, 17:78, 24:58 and possibly 73:20.


i dont agree with this, i think this three verses also reffers to which we call salat/prayer


فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰi(i impile that it refers to which we call fajr prayer(قبل طلوع الشمس) maghrib prayer(قبل غروبها) esha prayer(وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ), also i think اطراف النهار defined in the two verse that i will write below)

فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ حِينَ تُمْسُونَ وَحِينَ تُصْبِحُونَ , i think تمسون=When you enter evening , as i know evening means مساء ... im not wrong , am i? So this verse refers to fajr and evening

And

وَلَهُ الْحَمْدُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَعَشِيًّا وَحِينَ تُظْهِرُونَ


i prefer تظهرون=When you enter noon(mid day)

So i think this verse  is about esha and noon prayer

That was my impression.... im a muslim who only follows quran, and before it i was shia(not sunni, as you might think that my impression that prayers is 5 times is because of my sunni background)

Peace  :handshake: