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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Sarah on January 19, 2020, 05:34:52 PM

Title: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Sarah on January 19, 2020, 05:34:52 PM
Peace

So when we get haircuts, cut our toenails, when men shave their faces and people dye their hair...we are temporarily changing our appearance. But people tend to think this is all halal.

However, when we pluck eyebrows, get piercings, tattoos...a lot of people think it's haram even some of the Quran aloners.

And it seems cosmetic surgery is seen as totally haram because it permanently changes one's appearance.

So where do we draw the line?

And is 'changing the creation of Allah' meant literally or even translated correctly?
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on January 20, 2020, 04:23:06 AM
Can you think of any prophet without having cut his nail and hair?

We know what would happen if one didn’t cut his hair/nail.
Both hair and nail are dead cells -we won’t feel any pain while cutting it, and both will grow back again.
Hair/nail growth is normal/common; but surgeries are usually done for abnormal things.
I don’t know whether it’s haram, but as a believer of Almighty-Just God, I do not support it.

Conscious and genuine people will already have good identity; they are self-confident and satisfied with their true self.
But unconscious people will try to mask their true identity (they call it beautification). E.g. plucking eyebrows, piercings, tattoos, dyeing hair etc
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on January 20, 2020, 07:37:08 AM
haram -meant if it's shirk
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Jafar on January 20, 2020, 11:51:56 AM
First I would recommend to shift away from the judgmental attitude and mindset which prevalent especially within Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The before mentioned cultural group always tries to judge everything between kosher and terefah, halal and haram, allowed and forbidden, up to the the intricate details which actually doesn't matter.

With that being said; human has 'changed the creation of God' if you're putting on a mindset of separation between human and God or from another perspective we can also say 'become God's instrument for change' since many centuries ago if you're putting on a mindset of unification of all things (including human) within God.

Among the example are domestic cats and dogs.
The plethora of varieties within cats and dogs exists due to active participation of human.
There are also many other examples, from wheat, rice, apple, orange and many other plants.
Which has resulted in the explosion of human population to 7 Billion as of to date.

Now zooming in to 'self physical modification', my perspective is it should be left back to each individual.
Everyone should have the rights to modify or not modify any elements of their appearance.
There is nothing wrong nor nothing right with that.

Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Iyyaka on January 20, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
And is 'changing the creation of Allah' meant literally or even translated correctly?
Salam Sarah,

I guess you are referring to verse 4:119.

   Sahih International: And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them
   so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah.
   "And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.

If this is the case then it is not really deal with your questioning (tattoos..).
Here is the historical context of revelation of this verse:
I quote 2 authors about this verse:

1) Muhammad ASAD:
The pre-Islamic Arabs used to dedicate certain of their cattle to one or another of their idols by cutting off or slitting the ears of the animal, which was thereupon considered sacred (Tabari). In the above context, this reference is used metonymically to describe idolatrous practices, or inclinations, in general. The allusion to Satan's inducing man to "corrupt [lit.," change "] God's creation" has a meaning to which sufficient attention is but seldom paid: Since this creation, and the manner in which it manifests itself, is an expression of God's planning will, any attempt at changing its intrinsic nature amounts to corruption.

2) Maudidi:
This alludes to one of the superstitious customs of the pagan Arabs. After a she-camel had given birth to five or ten young ones, they would slit her ears and dedicate her to their god and consider it unlawful to get any work from her. Likewise, if a camel had been a partner in the birth of ten young ones, his ears were also slit to mark that he had been dedicated to a god.
This does not condemn the alterations that man makes in the creation of God for their right and proper use, for in that case the whole of human civilization will stand condemned as a seduction of Satan. It is obvious that the civilization is nothing but the right and proper use of the things created by God.

However, this verse reveals a fundamental problem: do you work or serve for god or for an idol? Knowing that God gives himself to be known to us as the "all-full of love (al-rahman)", ask yourself if your actions symbolize or active the satanic principle, or not.

Will you make good use of God's creation?
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Rahma on January 20, 2020, 02:18:50 PM

Conscious and genuine people will already have good identity; they are self-confident and satisfied with their true self.
But unconscious people will try to mask their true identity (they call it beautification). E.g. plucking eyebrows, piercings, tattoos, dyeing hair etc


That's a lot of generalization --- lots of women pluck brows and have several piercings (let's leave tattoos and dyeing out of this for a while). In fact I pluck my eyebrows and I have couple of piercings. How does that hide my true identity?


Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on January 20, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
Peace

So when we get haircuts, cut our toenails, when men shave their faces and people dye their hair...we are temporarily changing our appearance. But people tend to think this is all halal.

However, when we pluck eyebrows, get piercings, tattoos...a lot of people think it's haram even some of the Quran aloners.

And it seems cosmetic surgery is seen as totally haram because it permanently changes one's appearance.

So where do we draw the line?

And is 'changing the creation of Allah' meant literally or even translated correctly?

Peace Sara...
As usual... All your questions you yourself confused...  God questions each individual, so follow with what God guided...  Let people say this is haram and that is halal.. It's their business... Make sure what is right within quran... Do whatever beautification as much as you want as long as it is making you pleased... And not to boast in front of people... I don't see anything wrong being beautiful using what's God given... If you wear a jewellery it is not part of natural beauty.. But addition... If you pluck your eyebrow it gives you pleasure and better look same men pluck moustache /beard line..  If you keep your hair long or shorter or curly or straight all your choice... If you cut your nail short or long.. That's your choice... God has not given any restrictions.. If you lost a teeth and if you replace with an artificial that's your choice that facilitates .. If your tooth are not even if you level them that's your choice same if you fill cavities...
If eyesight is weak if you use a lense then it's your choice... If you are shorter and if you wear a heel...etc etc.. Going away from what God created for beauty and necessity is no harm.. It's not changing what God created... God created with necessity and desire... Use it and be thankful. God made the meat raw.. Cook or fry or smoke.. Your choice.. If you graft a tree for quick benefit.. No harm.. All God naturally allowed that's why it works..
Make your life easier and beautiful with knowledge..
If you can't deliver naturally do scissoring.. What harm in it... If the child cannot hear use a  hearing gadget ... If you can't walk use a wheel chair.. If your loved ones need blood use other people's blood.. Etc etc.. . If God put diseases then take medicine...  You are not changing anythjng of what God created...
God created this whole world without houses.. So build houses for you to live.  So you change the nature for your livelihood...  No harm..
Don't go away from God's natural law.. That's changing.. SATAN entice deception.. Don't get trapped... Don't lie with what God created.. That's changing the creation of God...

As Iyykaka pointed out... Dear Sara you may be referring the verse 4:119 ...
In these verses,  SATAN challenges to God.. Let's refer the verses..
4:117-118 " ..... ..... and they [actually] call upon none but a rebellious Satan whom Allah has cursed. For he(satan) had said, "I will surely take from among Your servants a SPECIFIC PORTION.

Yes.. This specific portion among us is the most dangerous for believers... Be careful from them.. They are in mighty majority..

Then comes the next verse.. 4:119.. Unfortunately I am not with conventional understanding of cattle and cutting ear.. Satan has more powerful thing to do than cutting ears of cattle..challnege of iblees is mighty with anger and arrogance...
So I take for "Adhan" instead of 'Ear' as listening capacity / information / calling / permission / announcement / proclamation ...  And for "An'am" instead of cattle as Good / excellence / favor / bestow / pleasant things/ etc..

So based on that only I take the above verse... That makes sense for me... I know most of you won't agree.. But that's the guidance I get.. Time will tell whether I have chosen the right path or not...

SATAN will. Definitly use such people to change the creation of God by disconnecting the listening capacity of us from all good/ excellent things of God.. SATAN will dupe us to wrong things since SATAN has taken the majority to his web..satan will indoctrinate that great portion he challenged to God.. Then automatically disconnected information of truth thus losing knowing the blessing of God... Creation changed.. 

For example God created this Earth and heavens... But, what is truth?  Is it really what we learned in colleges about the universe is true or the SATAN has changed the creation of God as he rightly challenged God... We are disconnected from Adhan of Anam thus changed the truth of God's creation and in fact changed the creation to another reality which is mighty.. That's my understanding... I am much satisfied with this understanding...
I know very minute people will agree with me.. Coz SATAN has won..
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Iyyaka on January 21, 2020, 04:56:51 AM
So based on that only I take the above verse... That makes sense for me... I know most of you won't agree.. But that's the guidance I get.. Time will tell whether I have chosen the right path or not...
Salam Jkhan,

wise words (in bold - above).

I notice that, for this quranic passage, you start from your view to read the text.
But it is necessary and prudent not to mix two time frame:
   1) what a text says about the recipients which are not us and
   2) the lessons that we draw from the text for our current lives which makes the text alive.

The logic is to start FIRST from the point 1 before to go to the point 2, and not to do the opposite, otherwise we do what historians call anachronism or we distort the meaning of the words in the text.

I would not be exhaustive but 2 remarks about the point 1 :

1) Linguistics :

ādhāna = (the) ears.
l-anʿāmi = (of) the cattle/livestock.

- Confirmed by classic Arabic dictionary and ALL the reference of this form in the Quran (intertextuality)

- http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nEm#(4:119:6) [cattle from pastering – in Arabic context it is essentially camels, goats and sheeps]

- We are mainly urban dwellers in the West but, at the time of Muhammad, having a healthy and a big cattle were a sign of wealth and happy situation

2) Textual Context (Translation inspired by Sahih International) :

4:118: Whom Allah has cursed. For he had said, "I will surely take from Your servants a determined portion.
4:119: And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change [corrupt] the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.


- If you link verse 4: 118 and 4: 119 together, you understand that a portion/share of the livestock/cattle [pastering] were dedicated to idols under the influence of Shaytanic ideas

   Other similar context:
   6:136: And the polytheists assign to Allah from that which He created of crops and livestock a share and say,
   "This is for Allah ," by their claim, " and this is for our partners [associated with Him]." But what is for their "partners"
   does not reach Allah , while what is for Allah - this reaches their "partners." Evil is that which they rule.


- Again, an atomic reading of the Quran, by isolated verse, may leads us to misunderstand the the factual meaning of the text.

Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: amin on January 23, 2020, 10:29:48 PM
A question,

Can we create a large forest in the midst of the hot Arabian desert?
, it can be a dream of many, but in reality  it cant survive, I see the changing of God's creation is like this, We follow and will so many illogical things, without considering the blessings of God which only finally sustains.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on January 24, 2020, 05:22:59 AM
It is not up to us to draw lines. We have zero control.
People can change what they want the lines are already drawn by GOD who is in total control.
Let us not  think like Iblis who wants to fool us and we  fall into his trap.
Or are believing Iblis
GOD bless.
Peace
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on January 26, 2020, 08:05:46 AM
Salam!
If an'am means livestock including chicken then how people cut off/slit chicken's ears?
Peace!
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Iyyaka on January 26, 2020, 02:42:51 PM
Salam!
If an'am means livestock including chicken then how people cut off/slit chicken's ears?
Peace!
Salam TellMeTheTruth,

1)
l-anʿāmi = grazing livestock / field of pasturing

here are the links for knowing opinions about what kind of grazing livestock it meant at the time of the prophet muhammad :

http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=1163,ll=2915,ls=57,la=4478,sg=1151,ha=795,br=975,pr=157,vi=372,mgf=816,mr=737,mn=1438,aan=674,kz=2700,uqq=401,ulq=1690,uqa=427,uqw=1677,umr=1092,ums=921,umj=857,bdw=890,amr=643,asb=1005,auh=1635,dhq=570,mht=908,msb=241,tla=95,amj=841,ens=723,mis=2225 (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=1163,ll=2915,ls=57,la=4478,sg=1151,ha=795,br=975,pr=157,vi=372,mgf=816,mr=737,mn=1438,aan=674,kz=2700,uqq=401,ulq=1690,uqa=427,uqw=1677,umr=1092,ums=921,umj=857,bdw=890,amr=643,asb=1005,auh=1635,dhq=570,mht=908,msb=241,tla=95,amj=841,ens=723,mis=2225) (Hans Wehr - left column)

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000289.pdf (http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000289.pdf) (middle column)

and from a quranic perspective in verses 6:143 and 6:144 :
l-ḍani = sheeps
+
l-maʿzi = goats
+
l-ibili = camels cattle
+
l-baqari = bovine cattle
= for each 2 pairs : 2*4 = 8

2)
An another interesting quranic sign is that it seems to be grazing livestock from which milk is withdrawn (and also for bedding/carpet/covering the ground in 6:142 - wafarshan) :

   16:66 : And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their
   bellies
- between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers
. (Sahih International)

3)
conclusion :

so,
grazing livestock (with quranic definition)
+
milk
+
something who cover the ground
= it is not about little cattle like backyard poultry.

peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on January 27, 2020, 06:28:53 PM
Salam!
Thanks Iyyaka!
I asked because some ppl think chicken are aming an'am while this is not the case as per Quran.
Now to another question: How slitting of ears can change cattle's creation or design. For example, we cut ears of a cow then it still remains a cow. Or is it about cloning etc?
Or it is just about changing a condition as per below ayah:
الْأَنْفَال   8:53

ذٰلِكَ بِاَنَّ اللّٰهَ لَمۡ يَكُ مُغَيِّرًا نِّـعۡمَةً اَنۡعَمَهَا عَلٰى قَوۡمٍ حَتّٰى يُغَيِّرُوۡا مَا بِاَنۡفُسِهِمۡ‌ۙ وَاَنَّ اللّٰهَ سَمِيۡعٌ عَلِيۡمٌۙ‏

This (torment) is because Allah never changes any blessing that He grants affluently to some people till they change their blessed state themselves (i.e. when they commit ingratitude, disobedience and sins and even lose the sense of loss they are seized by destruction and devastation). Allah is indeed All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

web.analyzequran.com/explorer/8:53

I see غ ی ر and.ن ع م together in this ayah. غ ی ر also used for people themselves. بانفسھم
People should ghayyir themselves but should not ghayyir their cattle? Are people not خلق اللہ؟
Peace!
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Iyyaka on January 28, 2020, 12:33:48 AM
Now to another question: How slitting of ears can change cattle's creation or design. For example, we cut ears of a cow then it still remains a cow. Or is it about cloning etc?
Or it is just about changing a condition as per below ayah:
8:53
salam TellMeTheTruth,

Yes it remains a cow ( ;D). We focus on the problem of cutting the ears of some animals WHILE Quran is focusing on the criticism of banning a food which god did not prohibit the consumption. We have to change of paradigm.

Pagans, at the time of prophet Muhammad, altered the ears of some grazing livestock so that people would recognize them with others because they were forbidden to eat them. The purpose of this practice was prohibition. It is THIS goal that the quran criticizes.

Message of the Quran : Grazing livestock is a blessing from god for all people => prohibiting or restricting its consumption is altered the purpose of what the livestock is made for.
We must return to the Quranic context of verses 6:136 to 6:149 (translation inspired by Sahih Internationa):

6:138:
And they say, "These animals and crops are forbidden; no one may eat from them except whom we will," by their claim.

6:140:
Those will have lost who killed their children in foolishness without knowledge and prohibited what Allah had provided for them, inventing untruth about Allah. They have gone astray and were not [rightly] guided.

6:142:
And of the grazing livestock are carriers [of burdens] and those [too] for bedding. Eat of what Allah has provided for you and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.
 
--------------

cloning ? you will not find DIRECTLY an answer to the Quran because it was not a question in the 7° century after issa.
it is from our own responsability to draw lessons from the Quran and to apply to our known world.

---------------
definition of the root word "ghayn yā rā (غ ي ر)" [form II] (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00016%20A%20Ghair%20Ghain%20Ya%20Ra/16.%20Lane.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00016%20A%20Ghair%20Ghain%20Ya%20Ra/16.%20Lane.htm))
"
2 غيّر الشَّىْءَ  , (S, Msb, K, *) inf. n. تَغْيِيرٌ, (Msb,) He made the thing other than it was; (K;) made it cease to have the quality which it had; (Msb;) altered it; changed it. (K.) He, or it, altered, or changed, the thing in odour, or otherwise, for the worse; corrupted, tainted, or infected, it; rendered it ill-smelling, stinking, fetid, rancid, rank, fusty, or frouzy. (The lexicons passim.) It is said in the Kur [viii. 55], ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللّٰهَ لَمْ يَكُ مُغَيِّرًا نِعْمَةً أَنْعَمَهَا عَلَى قَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُوا مَا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ [This was because God changeth not favour which He hath conferred upon a people until they change what is in themselves: or] until they change what God hath commanded them to do. (Th, TA.) ― -b2- [And He exchanged the thing for another thing.] ― -b3- غيّر الشَّيْبَ He plucked out the white, or hoary, hairs. (TA.) ― -b4- غيّر عَنْ بَعِيرِهِ He put down the saddle from his camel, and put it to rights, or adjusted it, or repaired it. (TA.) One says تَرَكَ القَوْمَ يُغَيِّرُونَ He left the people putting to rights, or adjusting, or repairing, the camels' saddles. (S, TA.) -A2- See also 1, latter half.
"

Further explanations :
The form II has three declinations:
      - neutral: swap / perform a permutation
      - negative: change / alter / corrupt
      - positive: correct / improve

peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on January 30, 2020, 04:29:02 AM
الْأَنْفَال   8:53

salaam TellMeTheTruth,

There is no evidence in the Qur’an for title of Chapters, i.e. God didn't give it.
Also, see:
Chapter Headings
In reviewing the oldest written records of the Scripture, it was found that no actual chapter names as used in current printed editions ever existed (e.g. 'the cow, the family of Imran, the women, etc.') and that they were later insertions to ease reference.
https://free-minds.org/quran/PM/P (https://free-minds.org/quran/PM/P)

It may become problematic, if you interpret verses based on the title.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on January 30, 2020, 05:48:26 AM
 :peace:
Who introduced the titles and when?
Where would you use this to interpret verses and why?
GOD bless.
Peace
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on January 30, 2020, 01:10:31 PM
salam TellMeTheTruth,

Yes it remains a cow ( ;D). We focus on the problem of cutting the ears of some animals WHILE Quran is focusing on the criticism of banning a food which god did not prohibit the consumption. We have to change of paradigm.

Pagans, at the time of prophet Muhammad, altered the ears of some grazing livestock so that people would recognize them with others because they were forbidden to eat them. The purpose of this practice was prohibition. It is THIS goal that the quran criticizes.

Message of the Quran : Grazing livestock is a blessing from god for all people => prohibiting or restricting its consumption is altered the purpose of what the livestock is made for.
We must return to the Quranic context of verses 6:136 to 6:149 (translation inspired by Sahih Internationa):

6:138:
And they say, "These animals and crops are forbidden; no one may eat from them except whom we will," by their claim.

6:140:
Those will have lost who killed their children in foolishness without knowledge and prohibited what Allah had provided for them, inventing untruth about Allah. They have gone astray and were not [rightly] guided.

6:142:
And of the grazing livestock are carriers [of burdens] and those [too] for bedding. Eat of what Allah has provided for you and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.
 
--------------

cloning ? you will not find DIRECTLY an answer to the Quran because it was not a question in the 7° century after issa.
it is from our own responsability to draw lessons from the Quran and to apply to our known world.

---------------
definition of the root word "ghayn yā rā (غ ي ر)" [form II] (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00016%20A%20Ghair%20Ghain%20Ya%20Ra/16.%20Lane.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/Tabweeb/00016%20A%20Ghair%20Ghain%20Ya%20Ra/16.%20Lane.htm))
"
2 غيّر الشَّىْءَ  , (S, Msb, K, *) inf. n. تَغْيِيرٌ, (Msb,) He made the thing other than it was; (K;) made it cease to have the quality which it had; (Msb;) altered it; changed it. (K.) He, or it, altered, or changed, the thing in odour, or otherwise, for the worse; corrupted, tainted, or infected, it; rendered it ill-smelling, stinking, fetid, rancid, rank, fusty, or frouzy. (The lexicons passim.) It is said in the Kur [viii. 55], ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللّٰهَ لَمْ يَكُ مُغَيِّرًا نِعْمَةً أَنْعَمَهَا عَلَى قَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُوا مَا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ [This was because God changeth not favour which He hath conferred upon a people until they change what is in themselves: or] until they change what God hath commanded them to do. (Th, TA.) ― -b2- [And He exchanged the thing for another thing.] ― -b3- غيّر الشَّيْبَ He plucked out the white, or hoary, hairs. (TA.) ― -b4- غيّر عَنْ بَعِيرِهِ He put down the saddle from his camel, and put it to rights, or adjusted it, or repaired it. (TA.) One says تَرَكَ القَوْمَ يُغَيِّرُونَ He left the people putting to rights, or adjusting, or repairing, the camels' saddles. (S, TA.) -A2- See also 1, latter half.
"

Further explanations :
The form II has three declinations:
      - neutral: swap / perform a permutation
      - negative: change / alter / corrupt
      - positive: correct / improve

peace.
Salam and thanks!
You did not ficus in the word خلق اللہ. This means creature of Allah i.e  how it was designed and came into the existance and in which form. Declaring some animals haram or halal does not change خلق.
Peace!
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on January 30, 2020, 01:23:03 PM
salaam TellMeTheTruth,

There is no evidence in the Qur’an for title of Chapters, i.e. God didn't give it.
Also, see:
Chapter Headings
In reviewing the oldest written records of the Scripture, it was found that no actual chapter names as used in current printed editions ever existed (e.g. 'the cow, the family of Imran, the women, etc.') and that they were later insertions to ease reference.
https://free-minds.org/quran/PM/P (https://free-minds.org/quran/PM/P)

It may become problematic, if you interpret verses based on the title.
Salam!
I understand your point. I just copy/pasted the ayah from app which i use for convenient searching.
I questioned based on root words and rheir meanings and rheir occurrences.
Peace!
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: quincy on January 30, 2020, 02:50:25 PM
Slit the ears of cattle = to mark the human cattle and change the creation/reality through manipulating the chemistry of earth and body and the programming of the mind through repetition in public schools and corporate media.

Those who have eyes/vision but cant see, have ears/hearing but cant hear are just like cattle.

Real eyes realize real lies.

And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

- 7:179
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 03, 2020, 02:17:22 AM
Where would you use this to interpret verses

For example, if the chapter 6 is given the title 'الْأَنْعَامِ', one can argue that ‘remembering God’s name’ mentioned in 6:118,119&121(depends on his understanding of the verses), is only applicable for الْأَنْعَامِ, not for other animals including birds.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 03, 2020, 02:59:56 AM
Then they are not looking at contexts!

So who invented the titles and when?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 03, 2020, 04:02:37 AM
Then they are not looking at contexts!
salaam,

Are these verses only for the context? Would you eat meat of bird even if God's name not remembered on it?

Quote
So who invented the titles and when?
How do I know the true story in history?
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 03, 2020, 06:20:13 AM
Salam.brother.
Eat means all food including bird, otherwise the exceptions would have been given with" eat what GOD has made lawful".

Also if you do not know the history ,how can you be sure the "naming" was not done by instruction from prophet, like the arrangement of surahs?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on February 03, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
Salam.brother.
Eat means all food including bird, otherwise the exceptions would have been given with" eat what GOD has made lawful".

Also if you do not know the history ,how can you be sure the "naming" was not done by instruction from prophet, like the arrangement of surahs?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace mohamed..

In my personal view I don't think there is any harm having a chapter name merely to remember it.. It is like giving a number to chapter... God revealed it without chapter name for sure...  Chapter names are not quran or part of quran... Some chapters have different chapter headings...
It's almost like... God created this Earth... People named Misr Madyan Rome etc... There is no harm.. Just to identify.. Different community may give different heading...
God revealed by chapters.. No one can deny it.. If you read verses where chapter /sura apears yiu will grasp...

For example if the heading is "Prophets" it is not necessary in it everything is about prophets... If the heading is "Cave" not necessarily whole chapter is about them.. People not prophet did name them for their convenience...  What is the big issue with it folks? 
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 04, 2020, 03:33:48 AM
Peace jkhan.
You say,quote:

People not prophet did name them for their convenience...  What is the big issue with it folks?

You are sure brother? Who named them? Or are you guessing? And what convenience?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on February 04, 2020, 04:35:28 AM
Peace jkhan.
You say,quote:

People not prophet did name them for their convenience...  What is the big issue with it folks?

You are sure brother? Who named them? Or are you guessing? And what convenience?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace brother...

Yes... I do... I am absolutely sure that prophet won't include anything to quran... He would have only writen ehat is delivered to him... Had he written anything away from what is delivered to him,  then  it will be quran... So had he written headings for chapters then it is part of quran and a real message from God... I won't trust it...

Second point I said people wrote it.. Do you need history and precise record for it? That's common sense...   If not people then who...  Jinn would  have writen on it? Lol..just relax.. People have made ness of many things specially God revealed books in the past... They always need extra from what is revealed... So it is part of their work...
If not people and if it is the messenger then bring proof from history... Boy that need evidence.. And not my claim...
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 04, 2020, 04:51:59 AM
Eat means all food including bird, otherwise the exceptions would have been given with" eat what GOD has made lawful".

I agree. I took verse 5:3 and 6:118,119&121 differently, and it was wrong.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 04, 2020, 12:57:17 PM
Peace jkhan.
What is certain is that Qoran is divided into surahs. What is also certain is that the arrangement of the surahs is GOD guided.
Similarly titles at the beginning of surahs and the bismallah could also have been instructed with the arrangement, why not?
I do not see any motives for humans to give titles and not accept authorship of it. We could go on but like you say here, quote:

If not people and if it is the messenger then bring proof from history... Boy that need evidence.. And not my claim...

Both these need evidence. You also cannot be sure. For me titles are identities only. They serve to confirm the divide of surahs. The message is the most important. Titles do not change the message of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 11, 2020, 03:39:50 AM
I quoted it wrongly (Reply #26), do not agree here:
Eat means all food

All other occurrences of 'remember God’s name on it' (5:4, 6:138, 22:28,34,36) are clear that the contexts speak about ‘animals’ (including birds-5:4), hence it seems the verses 6:118,119&121 also denotes the same, i.e. it’s not referring to all food. And most likely, all the above verses are referring the slaughter of animal (-clearly in 22:36).
And this command(remember God’s name) didn’t come with/for other foods, because, there is no slaughtering involved!
 
I understand 6:118,119&121 as, an example/illustration for (5:3) 'وَمَا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ'
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 11, 2020, 06:40:32 AM
Peace Mohamed.
Eat means all food is general like here:
16:114
Therefore, you shall eat from God's provisions everything that is lawful and good, and be appreciative of God's blessings, if you do Ubudu Him alone.
فَكُلوا مِمّا رَزَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ حَلٰلًا طَيِّبًا وَاشكُروا نِعمَتَ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُم إِيّاهُ تَعبُدونَ

16:115
He only prohibits for you dead animals, blood, the meat of pigs,* and food which is dedicated to other than God. If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
إِنَّما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُمُ المَيتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحمَ الخِنزيرِ وَما أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ غَيرَ باغٍ وَلا عادٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

16:116
You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.
وَلا تَقولوا لِما تَصِفُ أَلسِنَتُكُمُ الكَذِبَ هٰذا حَلٰلٌ وَهٰذا حَرامٌ لِتَفتَروا عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذينَ يَفتَرونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ لا يُفلِحونَ

I do not see any slaughtering mentioned here..
Of course The context in the "Anaam" surah is a bit different.
But in general "eat" means all food.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 11, 2020, 11:34:44 PM
salaam good logic,

If you take the verses not for slaughtering/meat but for all food (including cereals, fruits, pulses etc.), how would you apply your understanding in 6:121 ?

6:121
“And do not eat from what God's name was not (has not been) remembered/mentioned on it, and that it truly is fisq..."
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 12, 2020, 04:43:50 AM
Salam mohamed.

My take is that we thank the Lord-Remember GOD s name- on all food provided for us We are responsible for this not others.
So if I sit down to eat any food ,I start by thanking the Lord for providing for me.

GOD bless you.
Peace..
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on February 12, 2020, 09:26:55 PM
6:138 “And they say, "These animals and crops are forbidden; no one may eat from them except whom we will," by their claim. And there are those [camels] whose backs are forbidden [by them] and those upon which the name of Allah is not mentioned - [all of this] an INVENTION of untruth about Him. He will punish them for what they were inventing.”

6:119 “And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been mentioned while He has explained in detail to you what He has FORBIDDEN YOU, excepting that to which you are compelled. And indeed do many lead [others] astray through their [own] inclinations without knowledge. Indeed, your Lord - He is most knowing of the transgressors.”
6:145 Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."


Peace… Mohamed & GL..

Totally off topic… but still explain my understanding and stance..

Just ensure to separate the actions of ‘Eating’ & ‘Slaughtering’ ……

Quran never gives a clear cut order when it comes to Slaughtering an animal that it is compulsory to mention the name of God… We know exception to this while in Haj it was ordered to mention the name of God when the cattle are in line… not for each and every one of them…
…. But totally contrary to that, God explains with explicit verse and orders us to mention the name of God before consume anything to our mouth… 6:121 & 6:119
I brought the above three verses to give a thought on it, perhaps you would get a clear picture if in case complicated or stuck …

In the verse 6:145 there is no way it is mentioned that forbidden for us to eat any food (including flesh) on which the name of God is NOT MENTIONED…So Name of God mentioning on animals while slaughtering is not obligatory for sure….. For example if anyone slaughtered an animal (with or without mentioning the name of God) and selling as meat and we can buy and eat without any doubt… Unless what God forbidden 04 items…
Further by verse 6:138, it is very obvious that there is no such restriction from God that we should only eat (especially animal) if the name of God is mentioned… That’s mere invention…

So in 6:119 no one can ever say that God is referring only to animals, it refers to ALL Food which God has ALLOWED… So mention the name of God before Consume them… it is equal to thanking the God for providing the food for us….
But pls note that it is not imperative that we should mention the name of God before slaughtering any animal… No one can prove within the book that we should do so… That will be only invention…But if we mention with our habit before doing any action the name of God then there is no harm either… But No instruction from God though….

Note verse 6:119 meticulously…it says “why you should not eat upon which name of God is mentioned” and the verse continues “while God has explained in detailed what is forbidden… It means Eat all the food other than what is explained not to eat, but mention the name of God before eating on what is allowed to eat. Remember even if you happen to eat the forbidden 04 foods under compulsion, then you have to mention the name of God on it before eating them though they are listed forbidden…Coz those foods are allowed depending on your situation… So 6:119 mentioning the name of God is explained only to what is fundamentally allowed… and 6:121 is common (I mean to say any food fundamentally allowed or forbidden but allowed based on situation), but mention the name of God…
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: good logic on February 13, 2020, 04:25:09 AM
Brother jkhan,are you not repeating what I said?
Eat means everything we eat.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: Mohammed. on February 16, 2020, 12:51:55 AM
وَلَا تَأْكُلُوا (And do not eat)
=>2nd person masculine plural

لَمْ يُذْكَرِ (has not been remembered/mentioned)
=>3rd person masculine singular

***
And I would like to add rest of the verse 6:121,

…and that the devils inspire/transmit to their patrons/supporters to argue/dispute with you, and if
you obeyed them, that you are (then) sharers/takers of partners (with God).
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on February 16, 2020, 02:42:12 AM
وَلَا تَأْكُلُوا (And do not eat)
=>2nd person masculine plural

لَمْ يُذْكَرِ (has not been remembered/mentioned)
=>3rd person masculine singular

***
And I would like to add rest of the verse 6:121,

…and that the devils inspire/transmit to their patrons/supporters to argue/dispute with you, and if
you obeyed them, that you are (then) sharers/takers of partners (with God).

Peace GL...
I didn't see your response.. Once Mohamed's response pop up I saw...
If I am repeating what you say then Me and You are having the same stance or understanding in this case..
@mohamed..
I am not quite sure what is your understanding to date..
Are you saying below... ....

** we should slaughter animals by mentioning the name of God.. If not not mentioned we should not eat..

** we should make sure any meat bought that God's name is mentioned before slaughtering it... Otherwise we should not buy them..

** or are you saying we don't need to say the name of God before slaughtering but enough while eating... Kindly respond ...
You may be knowing the severity of the verse.. God says we can end up as mushrik.. Either with knowledge or without.. So in this case we all believers can only converge to only one understanding.. If we are with difference of opinion then either of the group is mushrik.. By this I don't say I am on the right side.. May Allah guide me...

@everyone...
I have a concern.. When I asked many people about the verse " dedicated to other than Allah"  they have the opinion that animals sacrificed by mentioning the name of any other god/s.. And eating such meat...
But I do strongly believe that it is not animals but any allowed food...other then four forbidden..
For example.. It can be any such food those who dedicate in front of their god's statues totally dedicating to them.. And then bring them and distribute to people... Such foods I used to get once my friends do visit their respective religious places.. They dedicate and prepare food and submit to their lords and bring portion of it and with happiness they give to loved ones and friends.. It's so tricky but I still believe we should avoid such food.. Coz it is dedicated... Just don't hurt them.. Take it and don't eat and give to some who is not believer or animal.. I may look rude but.. What else to do.. It's so unpleasant to say them that I can't eat it coz my Lord says so..
Can anyone say what is it that is dedicated to other than Allah...?
I wanted to open a different topic but I hope let it be under this..
Title: Re: What does changing the creation of God mean
Post by: jkhan on February 16, 2020, 09:27:20 PM


@everyone...
I have a concern.. When I asked many people about the verse " dedicated to other than Allah"  they have the opinion that animals sacrificed by mentioning the name of any other god/s.. And eating such meat...
But I do strongly believe that it is not animals but any allowed food...other then four forbidden..
For example.. It can be any such food those who dedicate in front of their god's statues totally dedicating to them.. And then bring them and distribute to people... Such foods I used to get once my friends do visit their respective religious places.. They dedicate and prepare food and submit to their lords and bring portion of it and with happiness they give to loved ones and friends.. It's so tricky but I still believe we should avoid such food.. Coz it is dedicated... Just don't hurt them.. Take it and don't eat and give to some who is not believer or animal.. I may look rude but.. What else to do.. It's so unpleasant to say them that I can't eat it coz my Lord says so..
Can anyone say what is it that is dedicated to other than Allah...?
I wanted to open a different topic but I hope let it be under this..

Further concern is, if *Uhilla* (dedicated) to other than Allah is forbidden, then does it mean we can dedicate to Allah? What actually DEDICATE to allah means when it comes to food? Strangely i noticed in four occasions this 'Uhilla' is mentioned (5:3, 6:145, 16:115) and 2:173.... only in 2:173 it is mentioned in different way 'Uhillah Bihi Lighairillah' but in other three occasions 'Uhilla Lighairilla bihi'..

What is this dedicate?