Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Houriya on December 03, 2019, 01:46:16 AM

Title: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 03, 2019, 01:46:16 AM
Peace,

After reading the articles of this site in French that I found interesting: https://nawaat.org/portail/author/dukhani/

I wonder about the definition of siyam and have severl questions about the verse 2:187

God explains what is allowed during the night and what we should not do during our spiritual retreat in almasajid.


Is the instructions “until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn", concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?

Is this part of the verse «  God knew that you used to betray your souls » concerns both “to approach your women sexually »  and eat and drink ?

During the spiritual retreat in almasajid, why god did not specify both do not approach them (your women sexually) and don’t eat and drink ?

2:187    It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam / fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete alssiyama / the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

The spiritual retreat during siyam serves to receive divine guidance as explained in the following verse “and magnify God for what He has guided you to »


2:185    Shahr ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshshahra shall yasumhu / fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

I am convinced of the interest of fasting for health. I do not think that fasting is the purpose of siyam
Spiritual retreat for a fixed number of days is crucial to receive guidance, to connect to God.

Thank you for your debate on this topic

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Mazhar on December 03, 2019, 02:28:14 AM

أُحِلَّ لَـكُـمْ لَيْلَةَ ٱلصِّيَامِ ٱلرَّفَثُ إِلَـىٰ نِسَآئِكُـمْۚ

Sexually inciting preliminary activities directed towards your wives were permissible during the night of the Fasting for you people.

اپنی بیویوں کے ساتھ جنسی خواہشات ابھارنے والے عوامل  رمضان کی راتوں میں تم لوگوں کے لئے(تمہارے گمان کے برعکس)حلال تھے۔

Root: ر ف ث

هُنَّ لِبَاسٚ لَّـكُـمْ وَأَنتُـمْ لِبَاسٚ لَّـهُنَّۗ

They (respective) wives are apparel for you people and you are apparel for them.

وہ(بیویاں)تم لوگوں(خاوندوں)کے لئے لباس ہیں،اور تم(خاوند)ان کے لئے لباس ہو۔

عَلِمَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّكُـمْ كُنتُـمْ تَخْتانُونَ أَنفُسَكُـمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُـمْ وَعَفَا عَنكُـمْۖ

Allah the Exalted has known-observed that by self imposed restriction you people diligently kept lessening-suppressing the rights of your own selves. Thereby, He the Exalted has paid attention upon you to move you out of self imposed restrictions, and has since removed erroneous perception away from you.

اللہ تعالیٰ نے جان لیا ہے کہ تم لوگ سخت کوشش سے اپنے آپ کو روک کرخود اپنے ساتھ حق تلافی کرتے رہے ہو،اس لئے ان جناب نے تم پر توجہ فرما کر اس خود ساختہ پابندی کی وضاحت کر دی ہے۔اور اس گمان کو تم سے دور کر دیا ہے۔

Root: خ و ن

فَٱلْـٔ​َـٟنَ بَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَٱبْتَغُوا۟ مَا كَتَبَ ٱللَّهُ لَـكُـمْۚ

Therefore, after this clarification henceforth undertake mutual-consented intercourse with them in the nights of fasting and you people seek its result [not son or daughter but] that which Allah the Exalted has written for you people.

اس لئے اس نکتے کی وضاحت ہو جانے پر اب جاؤ ان (اپنی بیوی)سے باہمی خواہش سے مباشرت کرو اور اس کی خواہش و جستجو کرو جو اللہ تعالیٰ نے تمہارے لئے لکھ دیا ہوا ہے۔

وَكُلُوا۟ وَٱشْرَبُوا۟ حَـتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّـنَ لَـكُـمُ ٱلْخَيْطُ ٱلۡأَبْيَضُ مِنَ ٱلْخَيْطِ ٱلۡأَسْوَدِ مِنَ ٱلْفَجْرِۖ

And you people eat and drink during the night till the horizontal white line renders itself for you people distinguishable emerging from unfolding of the day - daybreak—delineated from the horizontal line-layer of black-obscure colour —

اور رات کے دوران کھاتے پیتے رہو اس لمحے تک جب  متوازی سفید  لکیر اپنے آپ کو تم لوگوں کے لئے کالی لکیر سے متمیز اور عیاں کر دے (صبح صادق،سحر کے بعد)، یہ وقت ا س رات کی فجر(پو پھوٹنے،طلوع روشنی)سے قبل ہے۔

Root: خ ى ط

ثُـمَّ أَتِمُّوا۟ ٱلصِّيَامَ إِلَـى ٱلَّيْلِۚ

Thereafter, you are directed to complete the fast spatio-temporally towards the setting in of night -Sun set: beginning of a new lunar day.

بعد ازاں تم لوگ روزوں (اجتناب  جنسی ،کھاناپینا)کو مکمل کرو رات کی جانب(نئے قمری دن کی جانب)۔

وَلَا تُبَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَأَنتُـمْ عَٟكِفُونَ فِـى ٱلْمَسَٟجِدِۗ

Take note; you people should not establish intimate mutually consented matrimonial contact-intercourse on visiting them (respective wives) during the currency of the period you are devotee in reclusion inside the Mosques.

رمضان کی راتوں میں ایک پابندی ہے،  جب تم لوگ مسجدوں میں اعتکاف میں ہو تو گھر آنے پر تمہیں اپنی بیویوں سے مباشرت نہیں کرنا چاہئے۔

تِلْكَ حُدُودُ ٱللَّهِ فَلَا تَقْرَبُوهَاۗ

These—afore-stated are the limits-restraints-demarcations prescribed by Allah the Exalted; Therefore, you people should not approach their boundaries [overstep/transgress-2:229].

یہ بیان کردہ اللہ تعالیٰ کی مقرر کردہ حدود ہیں اس لئے تم لوگوں کو چاہئے کہ ان سے تجاوز کرنے کے خواہشمند مت بنو۔

كَذَٟلِكَ يُبَيِّـنُ ٱللَّهُ ءَايَٟتِهِۦ لِلنَّاسِ

This is how Allah the Exalted explicitly explicates His Aa'ya'at: Verbal  Passages of Qur’ān rendering each point-concept-situation distinctly isolated and crystal clear for the people—

اس تقابلی انداز میں اللہ تعالیٰ اپنی آیات کو لوگوں کے فہم کے لئے متمیز اور واضح فرما دیتے ہیں۔

لَعَلَّـهُـمْ يَتَّقُونَ .2:187١٨٧

So that they might endeavour to protect their selves. [2:187]

اس کا مقصد یہ ہے کہ وہ  اپنے آپ کو محفوظ و مامون بنا سکیں(مقررہ حدود کے اندر   رہ کر)
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 03, 2019, 02:34:57 AM
Peace,


Is the instructions “until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn", concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?


Yes it is… any other option do you get dear?  You are free from all restrictions while you don’t fast… fasting is from clear white thread of dawn until night… Only exception is to those who remain/stay in Masajid (for me masajid is sanctuary/man made or natural) while you don’t fast… So no sex in Masajid but same sex is allowed any place other than Masajid…

Peace,


Is this part of the verse «  God knew that you used to betray your souls » concerns both “to approach your women sexually »  and eat and drink ?




Yes it is absolutely part of the verse…. Notice clearly… this is the first time the verse/s are revealed in arabic for the people of Mohamed to fast…. But God, claiming that “You used to betray” as if they were fasting even before the verses are revealed for fasting…That’s impossible….  That’s coz God talking to the people of the book.. This same quran addresses to the people of Israel as well.. There were people who were fasting even before the arabic quran instructs to do so… Thus those people of the book would have been betraying themselves by approaching sexually which is not wrong but thinking so… So God clarifies it in quran that it is allowed to do sex during the night of fasting… That clarified for those who fast first time and to those who were fasting before that..

Peace,


During the spiritual retreat in almasajid, why god did not specify both do not approach them (your women sexually) and don’t eat and drink ?



No need to repeat Eat & Drink while clearly stated to stop eat and drink with white thread appearance / advent at the dawn… and then explains to complete the fast (not eating / drinking / no sex) until night
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Wakas on December 03, 2019, 02:38:31 AM

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

2:187 Lawful for you nights (of) the abstinence is sexual approach* to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach** them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence until the night, and do not approach** them while you are devoting/cleaving in the maSaJiD. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous/God-concious.
*Arabic: RaFaTh (root: Ra-Fa-Tha)
**Arabic: BaShiR (root: Ba-Shin-Ra)

IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
    Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
    IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence? The traditional commentators attempt an explanation for this, e.g Jalalayn/Ibn Kathir say this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return, when they are meant to reside at the mosque for a certain number of days. This is a complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...WHILE YOU are devoting/cleaving IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. So, it would seem they interpret it as "...while you are staying in the masajid (for itikaf)...".
    If it did mean 'itikaf' then this is not explained elsewhere in AQ, e.g. how many days, what does it involve, why, is it obligatory, examples of anyone actually doing it etc. If we are relying upon AQ only for our understanding of this verse, then 'itikaf' must be rejected outright. The consequence of this however, is that it renders the understanding of masajid=mosques illogical, or at least very unusual.
    Another explanation put forth for this verse is that sexual approach to your women is permitted in the nights of the abstinence but not when one is staying in the mosques, e.g. The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca). Not for "itikaf" per se but simply a spiritual/devotional retreat there, e.g. travellers to The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) may have come from afar and thus set up tents there, and this verse is referring to them (a verse cited to support this notion of "residency/staying" is 22:25). Not that I necessarily agree with this explanation, but it is at least more plausible than the Traditional explanation, which advocates a specific practice of "itikaf" rather than an undefined one. It is debatable whether the word "akif" means "reside/stay" according to Quran usage, but in any case people staying-over in the mosque seems odd/impractical if one takes "tawaf" as "circumambulation" for example, and the "hadiy" (gifts/offerings) are also to be taken to such a venue. It could make "circumambulation" rather awkward, and if many residents/gifts/animals, perhaps impossible.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 03, 2019, 04:55:05 AM
The definition of siyam in this verse :


19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.





Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 03, 2019, 08:24:40 AM
The definition of siyam in this verse :


19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.

I seem to understand you that you are trying to say or believe that siyam could probably mean abstinence from talking to others by giving references of the verses.. ...  I have seen and heard people claim so...  That's total misunderstanding.... They can't convince...

If that interpretation for siyam is correct then explain me Sister Houriya what the below verses talking about fasting.... Are these abstinence from talking as well.. What kind of super easy punishment they are...

4:92 " ...... ...... And whoever does not find then, a fast for two months consecutively ..... . .. "

Or verse 2:196 or 5:95

58:4 "And he who does not find [a slave] - then a fast for two months consecutively before they touch one another; and he who is unable - then the feeding of sixty poor persons......."
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Mohammed. on December 03, 2019, 09:02:04 AM
salaam Wakas,

Considering masjid = time of SJD/acknowledgement

But from its(SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an, we can understand
-the purpose/importance of sujud, when it is done & one’s (mental/spiritual) state when he is in SJD/acknowledgement.
(Some examples, 12:100, 15:29, 17:107 etc.)

Then, what is the logic of saying 'do not approach women sexually at the time of SJD/acknowledgement' i.e. while a believer is in sujud?
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: good logic on December 03, 2019, 09:19:06 AM
Peace All.
The misunderstanding arises from the definitions given by some .
"Sawm" by itself does not mean abstain from talking or abstain from eating and drinking or abstain from anything. It just means Abstain from.
The talking,eating and drinking...etc are given in the verses and the context.
For Ramadan, it is clear it is "Abstain from eating and drinking- Fakuklu Wa Shrabu ....Then Abstain from both until....

For Meriem ,her Sawm was Abstain from "talking to others---Inni Nathartu Li.. Sawmun.,.Falan UKALLIMA Al Yawma Insiya...-
...etc.
My understanding.
GOD bless.
peace.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: good logic on December 03, 2019, 09:26:44 AM
In verses where it does not specify what to Abstain from, the context will give an indication. In most , like Hajj and the case of repentance, the logical one is "Abstain from food".
My view.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Mazhar on December 03, 2019, 11:59:11 AM
Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)
الصاد والواو والميم أصلٌ يدلُّ على إِمساكٍ وركودٍ في مكان. من ذلك صَوم الصَّائم

That it leads to the perception of abstinence, and stasis - stagnancy at home.

(لسان العرب)
الصَّوْمُ: تَرْكُ الطعامِ والشَّرابِ والنِّكاحِ والكلامِ

Fasting is the act and state of abstinence of activity relating to food intake and genitalia and speech.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Cerberus on December 03, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Fasting and its worth are universal and there is no real ambiguity except when someone is looking at semantics and easy passes.

From Confucius
 "The goal of fasting is inner unity. This means hearing, but not with the ear; hearing, but not with the understanding; hearing with the spirit, with your whole being.  The hearing that is only in the ears is one thing.  The hearing of the understanding is another.  But the hearing of the spirit is not limited to any one faculty, to the ear, or to the mind. Hence it demands the emptiness of all the faculties.  And when the faculties are empty, then the whole being listens. There is then a direct grasp of what is right there before you that can never be heard with the ear or understood with the mind.  Fasting of the heart empties the faculties, frees you from limitation and from preoccupation.  Fasting of the heart begets unity and freedom."

Basically emptying the senses in order to be more aware of your thoughts and actions. Also emptying the senses breaks you out of your animalistic habits, those things you do/eat/engage in  that provide you with your daily dose of self-satisfaction.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 03, 2019, 05:35:09 PM
Peace All.
The misunderstanding arises from the definitions given by some .
"Sawm" by itself does not mean abstain from talking or abstain from eating and drinking or abstain from anything. It just means Abstain from.
The talking,eating and drinking...etc are given in the verses and the context.
For Ramadan, it is clear it is "Abstain from eating and drinking- Fakuklu Wa Shrabu ....Then Abstain from both until....

For Meriem ,her Sawm was Abstain from "talking to others---Inni Nathartu Li.. Sawmun.,.Falan UKALLIMA Al Yawma Insiya...-
...etc.
My understanding.
GOD bless.
peace.

Peace GL...

I am not quite sure what you say is appropriate for the word siyam.... I strongly feel siyam is not just a mere word which refers to mere abstaining.... No... It's more than that.... This particular word is Specifically meaning a ritual act of fasting for good and for punishment...
It cannot be taken simply as abstaining.. For such there are other words in Arabic.. The below verse manifestly confirm fasting...
2:183 " O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous"

This doesn't  mean Abstinence merely....  The word itself has already the meaning with people of the book... They Knew what is siyam and that's what ordered for people of Quran to continue...  That's why even word like " betray" is used.. That's why I strongly believe Ramadhan cannot be an Arabic month in which to fast... There is no point asking to fast in Arabic month while people of book predominantly Israelites fast already and this book address them as well... God won't ask them and these to fast on different days... That's my understanding...

In Maryam instance... Whether she was fasting or not at that instance is not evident. . But it seems it is a well accepted good ethic for not talking beyond necessity while fasting.. So that was a kind of escape for her from people coz of her situation... So people won't query and argue... She can talk but not necessary... She was not ask to tell that I am not talking by signs... Like zakaria... That's contrasting difference...
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 04, 2019, 03:39:13 AM
The purpose of siyam is spiritual retreat in the temple (i3tikaf), to magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful (2:185).

Mary has retired from her people. Mary is allowed to drink and eat during her retreat when she practices siyam.
Retreat also includes not speaking or very little like Zacharias.

The different verses are used to explain the meaning of siyam. These are not several variants of siyam.

Do not confuse siyam with what is allowed during the night of the siyam and forbidden during the retreat / i3tikaf.

We are asked to continue (attimmoo) the siyam until night and don't approach approach your women sexually.

There is no interruption of the siyam.

God has not forgotten any details that are not allowed during the retreat / I"tikaf.

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 04, 2019, 07:10:28 AM
This the link that is the source of the thread : The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)


The best way to study the Reading is to put the verses side by side in order to undestand them.

https://nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/

When you read eating and drinking until dawn you understand not to drink and not to eat until evening. If you were not intoxicated by your Sheikhales beliefs, you might have been able to consider, according to your verse, that Siyam means retreat in the Masajids and that only the prohibition of "approaching" women is maintained in the day.

Why then does the verse reiterate the prohibition of approaching women if "your deduction" is valid and, if it is just to clarify, why does it not also clarify it for drinking and eating?

Nowhere in the Koran is it said that one should neither drink nor eat. On the other hand, a clear definition of saum exists in the Koran and it is Issa who gives it to his mother:

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

 19:26    فكلي واشربي وقري عينا فإما ترين من البشر أحدا فقولي إني نذرت للرحمن صوما فلن أكلم اليوم إنسيا

The siyam  is, once again, a spiritual retreat where we do not speak to humans and where we spiritually isolate ourselves from their nonsense. Not to drink or to eat is a handicap in spiritual retreat.

I add if you allow, here are two verses concerning the same divine miracle concerning the prophet Zechariah and his prayer (secret according to 19-3) to have a son :

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

 3:41    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلثة أيام إلا رمزا واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكر


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

 19:10    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلث ليال سويا

The only way to consider that these two miracles are the same is to consider that Zachariah did not speak already during the day. 3 nights would be equivalent to 3 days.

Zachariah, necessarily, was necessarily already in spiritual retreat during the day.

This is confirmed by the verse:

3:39    So the angels called to him while he was standing, connecting, in the enclosure: "God gives you glad tidings of John, affirming the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright."

3:39    فنادته الملئكة وهو قائم يصلي في المحراب أن الله يبشرك بيحيى مصدقا بكلمة من الله وسيدا وحصورا ونبيا من الصلحين

It was really Ramadan. The fact that it is the angels who speak to him is proof.

Also consider the verses:

2:183    O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

 2:183    يأيها الذين ءامنوا كتب عليكم الصيام كما كتب على الذين من قبلكم لعلكم تتقون

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

 2:184    أياما معدودت فمن كان منكم مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر وعلى الذين يطيقونه فدية طعام مسكين فمن تطوع خيرا فهو خير له وأن تصوموا خير لكم إن كنتم تعلمون

2:203    And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

 2:203    واذكروا الله في أيام معدودت فمن تعجل في يومين فلا إثم عليه ومن تأخر فلا إثم عليه لمن اتقى واتقوا الله واعلموا أنكم إليه تحشرون

Comparing 2-183 and 2-203, we see, once again, that siyam is equivalent to invoking God. The marker here is the expression number of days determined (ayyam maadoudat) whose tartil shows that it appears only three times in the quran. The third is irrelevant, in verse 3-24, which speaks of a belief in a purgatory of a few days.

The expression Ayyam Maadudat means a small number of 3 to 10 days. Verse 2-203 expresses the idea that it is not within two days.

Do not eat and drink if you want. But it is not the quran that asks you.

On the other hand, the periods of Hajj and Siyam are ten days and merge:

 89:2    And ten nights.

2:196    And conclude the hadj / debate and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. When you are secure, then whoever enjoys the visit until the hajj/debate, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then the fast of three days during the hajj and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten-this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

Verse 2-196 is clear. The hajj (debater) is exempt from Siyam. On the other hand, one who has gone only as a visitor or merchant (Umra ila el Hajj) can get by with an offering. If he does not have the means, then Siyam is his. This makes him 3 days on the spot, 0 during the trip and 7 on his return. Either the ten requested in all. This is not a calculating exercise to show that God knows how to add 3 and 7.

The Quran clearly defines what the sacred night is. It's the night the angels go down.

97:3    The Night of Decree / alqadr is better than one thousand shahr.

97:4    The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.

This is the relationship between the angels and Ramadan. That's why I said that the announcement made to Zechariah was indeed to the Ramadan Shar.

If the angels spoke to him, it was the night of Qadr.

As luck would have it, we also find the ten days in the verse:

7:142    And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."

Another revelation (necessarily the night of Qadr) with ten clear days. It is also far from being an addition exercise in the Qur'an to show that 30 + 10 = 40.

What is more logical in your opinion, do not eat, do not drink for a month, or honor the Koran the day it was revealed by spending 10 days of meditation or ten days of debate?
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 04, 2019, 09:45:34 AM
Siyam is dedicated / vowed to God :

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Siyam as punishment (3 days or 2 consecutive full moons, or equivalency in siyam for hunting) is decreed to have God's forgiveness and  repentance by invoking it (silently).

I think there is a common root between (sama / sawm / siyam) and (summun / dumb) or it's just a coincidence ?

The expected goal of siyam is to protect our self from / la3allaqum tattaqoon / perhaps you may be righteous / pious

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Cerberus on December 04, 2019, 01:29:07 PM
I do not see the practical use of the following attitude:
"Sorry I cannot talk to you right now because I'm connecting with God"

There is no growth and maturing from hiding away in some "spiritual" retreat. People and ourselves are the fuel to our growth.

Fasting is done among people and the best fasting is the one that is kept secret,as quoted in the book of Matthew :
"When you fast, do not be somber like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your ''''Father''''', who is unseen. "

It makes sense, the purpose of fasting is to become more conscious and self-controlling. There is no real gain if you do that in a space devoid of any challenges.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 04, 2019, 10:56:22 PM
Peace…

discernible instructions are given which has no ambiguous meaning… verses 2:183-187 so obvious and God Himself claims that He explains so crystal clearly…  (2:187 “ ..Thus does Allah make clear His Verses to the people …. . … . .”) If God claims he makes His verses clear and simple then there cannot be in the same verse ambiguous meaning… isn’t it…?
Remember my fellow believers, instructions / timing / way to do it / when to complete/ exemption / alternative etc for ‘Siyam’ is in verses 2:183-187 in its comprehensiveness and not in any other verses and the instruction is thoroughly manifest…
Don’t ever complicate with Zackaria and Mariyam….They are not instructions prescribed (kuthiba)
   In Zakaria verses there is nothing mentioned of Siyam… Zakaria was claiming for a SIGN from his Lord after hearing a glad tiding of a Child in his old age… Then God gives him a SIGN ….. That’s not instruction for Siyam…
   In Maryam verses…. She was under a date palm tree while she was delivering the birth of Isa… and whoever spoke to her told her to shake the stem of the tree so that she can get fresh dates and also there was a stream of water… so she has to eat and drink after delivering the child birth and after especially be happy /content (Wa-Qarri Aynan)… and not to fast.. She should be strong and be content with what happened to her and not to get disappointed.. Coz she was discontented when initially she got the message of a child to be born without no man touching her…she implored her death and to get forgotten … So with wa-qarri aynan all her bad feeling removed..

To be content and be happy practically, Then she was further instructed to say as  “She has vowed (Nadzarth)”… This vowing (solemn promise) is totally personal act in life.. optional in my understanding… But Siyam as per 2:183-187 is not optional but compulsory since it has to be done even on alternative days when not done ..etc etc..
So what she Vowed is ‘SAWM’ and remember not the similar word of ‘SIYAM’ though probably same root… What she was instructed is to be dumb (by not talking to people).. The reason behind this is just to save her from unnecessary conversation with people since she is holding a child without marriage… So when she says “I have vowed to Ar Rahman a ‘Sawm’ (not talking being dumb) then she will be relieved by people from further questioning as a respect ..
Now let’s see prescribed Siyam…
Siyam only take place during Nahar (day) and not at night… that’s why God call “during the night of Siyam” about sex and eating and drinking… God never talks of eating and drinking and sex during the Nahar (day) … the word “Haththa” is non other but “Until” … if God instructs to eat and drink using the word “UNTIL” then what is beyond that position is perceivable… isn’t that common sense?
Further God says to “Complete” Siyam to Night… If God orders to COMPLETE then it is when the night falls… No way you can continue beyond that point while God orders to complete… useless…God only orders to perform ‘Siyam’ during Day (Nahar)… that’s crystal clear.. If Siyam is completed at Night then restrictions will be eased ‘UNTIL’ the white thread of Dawn appears clear..… so next day’s Siyam begins till number of days to be completed.. So God points to Fajr and Start of Night be the period eased from restrictions…. So, He allowed eating drinking and sex during this period… Coz Siyam is not a continuous process throughout the day (24 hours)  What zakaria was ordered is Nahar and Lail (day and Night) which is complete three days of sign language…
Night is NO Siyam…but God allows the sex within the context of verses “only during the night”… So.. even one stays in Masajid (sanctuaries) during day inevitably he or she should avoid sex, coz Siyam is only during day..regardless he stays in masajid or home or any place.. no sex during day..Coz it is allowed clearly at “night of Siyam” NOT “during day of Siyam”….  Accordingly this “Akifuna” is not part of Siyam but merely an additional instruction to certain set of people who remains / stay in Masajid (sanctuaries) during the nights of ‘Siyam’… So manifestly allowed act of sex during the night of Siyam becomes restricted based on the place he or she is opted to stay….coz Masajid are places where God’s name is much applauded …. To perform sex in such places is not worthy though sex is not a bad act of human nature.. There could be huge sanctuaries people may be resting / staying to magnify God… example where Haj took place during the time of Muhamed… Why God RESTRICTED SEX while performing HAJ… coz Haj is performed in Restricted sanctuary (masjid Haram)… same rule apply at any time any Masajid (sanctuaries) …No sex in them.. though place could be even open huge areas of land, but if it is a sanctuary then no sex..

As well other occurrences of ‘Siyam’ in quran doesn’t comply with the meaning as “Secluding and meditating for God avoiding talking with other”… specially occurrences of siyam for penalizing for an act… such as two consecutive shahrain of siyam which is penalizing for an act…. By force asking to meditate in seclusion and avoiding talking… that’s bizarre..punishment to meditate? That’s nonsensical…but punishment of depriving food and drink and sex for consecutive shahrain may have meaning… God knows best..
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 05, 2019, 01:03:00 AM
Peace,

We can not consider that part of the verses. God explains, repeats and brings complementary information in each verse, as for salat / zakkat.

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 05, 2019, 03:14:09 AM
Focus only on what is said in the verse:

continue / complete  siyam,

what are we doing during siyam : you are devoted in the temples

and do not approach women sexually  while you are devoted in the temples.

nothing to add.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 05, 2019, 03:46:48 PM
Another verse :

7:31    O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 05, 2019, 05:43:42 PM
Peace,

We can not consider that part of the verses. God explains, repeats and brings complementary information in each verse, as for salat / zakkat.

Every verse should be considered and cross referenced... That's what I pointed out Maryam and zakaria irrelevant...
Siyam is complete in verses 2:183-187..try to grasp it with further studies... May God bless you
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 05, 2019, 05:48:14 PM
Focus only on what is said in the verse:

continue / complete  siyam,

what are we doing during siyam : you are devoted in the temples

and do not approach women sexually  while you are devoted in the temples.

nothing to add.

Pls try to understand  that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)...  So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 05, 2019, 05:56:13 PM
Another verse :

7:31    O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
In ancient time, a sanctuary was a most frequent place where people went to undertake religious rituals, sacrifice, prayer, and the giving of votive offerings, making vowes and accomplish them.. Some sanctuaries, additionally, acted as meeting places, trading places, political centres, and so on. ... Many places and things were considered sacred in antiquity.... Further sanctuaries were place of refuge and rest especially in peace.. This was common throughout the world in ancient times... These sanctuaries were part and parcel of yester year people and it was imperative for their life and all regardless of their belief respected sanctuaries and it was not place to fight in general ..
It such a place to visit in tidy dress and a place where you happen to eat and drink abundantly by looking at what is happening there... Even mostly free or paid... Children of Adam means anyone regardless of faith... So all are welcome in sanctuaries of God and eat n drink... As long as they obey and respect the sanctuaries ...

In addition to that... I think I talked about this in my old threads... Order of revelation is perfect for me.. No idea who preserved it... It has to be in any way QURAN is around.. Common sense is that before instructed anything to do the way of doing it must be given.... If God said to fast in an earlier verse then it is meaningless unless people knew when to fast and what to do..  So order of revelation is is key... Chapter 2:183-187 is revealed well before all other fasting occurences revealed... For example.. If God revealed fast consecutive shahrain as punishment then first he should know what is fasting .... So God revealed 2:183-187 then only all siyam... Look below link for order of revelation...

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Iyyaka on December 06, 2019, 01:55:38 AM
Pls try to understand  that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)...  So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...
Salam,

I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.

-- Your statement: siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."

Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
First part:
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
Second part:
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 03:15:45 AM
Salam,

I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.

-- Your statement: siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."

Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
First part:
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
Second part:
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves.

Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...

First of all nothing is my statement...  Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...

Accordingly...  My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran?  If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...

Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL..... 
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...

** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ::).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...?  NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..

Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..

Let me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...

In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Wakas on December 06, 2019, 03:18:14 AM
peace,

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 06, 2019, 03:52:14 AM
Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Iyyaka on December 06, 2019, 04:00:15 AM
peace,

When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
Peace brother,
Here, the text is clear by himself - i just put in evidence the text and the classic interpretation of the word siyam by qoting Jkhan - normally i do not have to explain more. But i will do it by answering Jkhan.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Iyyaka on December 06, 2019, 04:42:27 AM
Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...

First of all nothing is my statement...  Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...

Accordingly...  My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran?  If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...

Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL..... 
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...

** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ::).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...?  NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..

Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..

et me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...


In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
Salam brother,
Thanks

I will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if  Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.

After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.

You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran :

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.

A remark : Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 04:52:48 AM
Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0

Peace Sister...
You can only siyam is not fasting.. You are free to remain upon your understanding.. But you have to debate and answer and convince by your debate...

Nevertheless...  If you are claiming that siyam is meditation secluding to Masajid...  We are not to stop it.. You will definitely get the benefit for meditation.. Meditation and magnifying God is definitely worth doing that we have to do everyday if possible...

But you will probably lose the benefit of fasting coz... God says to fast and fasting makes us muttaqun... And fasting is better if you know.. That's what God says..
But even you don't fast you will never be penalized by God.. Coz it is not compulsory in a way to achieve success.. But it is compulsory on believers to be in a status of muttaqun... That's one of the criteria to become muttaqun...

After all fasting is not mandatory thing that will take us to Janna... 23:1-10 and 70:23-34 confirms it.. There no fasting at all... But still successful... But only we lose status...

May Allah guide us to what is right and let not He put us in error..

Note.. Waqas accept or not is not important for me.. Important is you or waqas or anyone says is within Quran and debated to convince.. That's key...
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 04:58:32 AM
Salam brother,
Thanks

I will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if  Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.

After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.

You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran :

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.

A remark : Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).

Peace...
If you are not sure what the definition of siyam then you don't have any right to claim by saying contradiction... Isn't it..
If you feel you are prejudiced to traditional siyam then I can't help.. But I am never ever prejudiced to anything but only look for mere guidance...
So you workout first your understanding then let us all know your understanding...
I have given my understanding already...

Further if siyam is not fasting and something else in your understanding just explain what is it and how you do it... That's worthy for the readers.. Even I ask this form sister Hourya
Peace
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 05:36:21 AM
@Iyyaka

Further... I should have replied this...
You are saying contradiction emphasising that FIRST part and SECOND part..
That's funny.. You divided into parts... Your misunderstanding made you to claim up to the extent of saying contradiction...
There is no parts..
Brother... How can one fast without eating... Isn't it the responsibility of God to explain what to do before fast.. Otherwise people would continue for days without eating or they would take it as 24 hours fasting by only eating at the advent of night only...
Look brother.. Take example of Salat... God says four steps before salat.. 4 body parts to be cleaned unless of course if we had a full bath..
So this cleaning part is not part of Salat but prior to Salat it is kind of a practice which is imperative..
Same way... Before fasting eating and drinking is must... What's wrong with logic? I wonder..
So first part is must though  it is not part of fasting but without it there is no fasting... Got it?
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Wakas on December 06, 2019, 05:53:26 AM
peace,

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.


That is not a contradiction. The error is in your reasoning. Let's work through it step by step...

The verse literally says:
do X and Y until Z then complete siyam to the night


If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?

If you disagree please explain why.

If you agree, then it is clear at point Z eating/drinking ends, and thus a fast has begun. Thus, when it then says "THEN complete the siyam to night" is self-explanatory, i.e. complete the fast that has already begun (at point Z) to the night.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Iyyaka on December 06, 2019, 09:52:40 AM
@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.

@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 06, 2019, 11:07:04 AM
Peace Jkhan,

My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.

Only God can enlighten us.

We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.

Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life

I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.

No worries if we agree on our disagreement.

May God increases our knowledge

God bless

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 05:29:57 PM
@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.

@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.

Iyykaka...
If you find it hard to debate with me.. It's fine I won't compel you...  I don't see that you have perceived Siyam... Nothing you exposed.. You yourself claimed that there is contradiction.. Only one thing God prescribed that's Siyam... No 24 hours of period of siyam... Siyam is only when that happens... That's why God clarifies and allow approaching wives at night to negate such misunderstanding...  If it was restricted before revelation of Quran approaching wives at night is not known coz QURAN only we look for guidance.. Since those who perform fasting even before Quran revelations seems to be  somehow have approached their wives at night and that God pardoning saying betraying self. So if God pardons then must have been restrictions at night for approaching wife... That's not necessary for us.. Coz Quran clarifies No to wives during day..Yes at night.. We are not the community before Quran but after..

Your English has no flaws n I understand...  I agree my English is the weakest coz I know how bad I was in English at college even now😩... But Law is my favorite subject...
Had I known to explain using best language within few sentences I would have...  But always use longer threads coz that's how I am comfortable to explain.. For that I beg you pardon from all... Be patient while reading my threads..

No grudges okay dude Iyykaka.. We search for guidance...
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 06, 2019, 05:39:12 PM
Peace Jkhan,

My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.

Only God can enlighten us.

We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.

Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life

I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.

No worries if we agree on our disagreement.

May God increases our knowledge

God bless

Peace Sister..

Convince doesn't mean that I or you or anyone should make other believe in what is debated and make them guide... No.. No... God will guide.. What I always mean by convince is.. We debate and if we all involved in debate then it is with the willingness we participate.. So what is debated should have meaning with the Quran.... And the questions of other debators should be precisely answered... If one remains on his or her own conviction... So we can deduce that the conviction of her or his is within the context of Quran... We are not here to debate uselessly or to pass time.. While someone exposing and at that time withdraw and say "my understanding  is for me and your understanding is for you".. Then no point of arguing... At some point we should stop the same topic of argument with conclusion... Coz God says He clarifies His verses.. And it seems 2:183-187 are simple manifest verses... How come I am on one side and you are on another side and others may be in some other side.. Who is right? What is actually God revealed and what Mohamed practiced and what his people practiced calling siyam.. Let's approach that one truth... Escaping saying I am doing what I'm doing is meaningless... 

Further... I missed to state below...

God prescribed Siyam and not Sawm...
2:183 " O you who have believed, prescibed upon you is fasting (SIYAM) as it was prescribed upon those before you that you may become righteous."

God prescribed Siyam... If you confuse it as Sawm... Then better explore... That's why I brought order of revelation.  .after prescribing Siyam in verse 2:183 all Siyam verses revealed... And not before 2:183...
But the word Sawm in chapter 19 is revealed even well before the verse 2:183 revealed.... Coz chapter 19 was revealed as 44th sura and chapter 2 in which fasting was prescribed is revealed as 87th Sura....(2:196, 4:92, 5:89, 5:95, 58:04, 33:35 all these Siyam verses revealed after 2:183 but)That's order of revelation.... (Sawm in 19:26 was revealed well before all above verses and all verses are siyam but 19:26 is not siyam but Sawm) In my assumptions order of revelation is precise...
Sawm in 19:26 has no connection with Siyam in rest of the quran... Siyam is not Sawm...
Further Maryam didn't say Siyam...  We don't vowe a Siyam for God... But we fast (Siyam)  for ourselves for our own benefit and to become muttaqun and to get status which we don't know but God promises...
But Maryam vowed a Sawm for Arrahman.. That's the difference... When we vowe there is a commitment between us and God... Fasting is not a vowe at all...
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Wakas on December 07, 2019, 12:48:54 AM
peace,


@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.

Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.

On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?

Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 07, 2019, 01:48:29 AM
Peace,

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.

2:185    Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?

I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.

what did this Marie did during the action of  sawm, she tasoom (S W M).

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Houriya on December 07, 2019, 04:03:12 AM
They / yasoomoon from the action of sawm.

Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: jkhan on December 07, 2019, 05:15:46 AM
Peace,

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.

2:185    Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?

I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.

what did this Marie did during the action of  sawm, she tasoom (S W M).

Dear Sister....

Don't confuse yourself in the hunt of substantiating your claim with clear Arabic word usage...
Root is same I mentioned in my reply #16... Just coz root  doesn't mean that the meaning also will become same...
While forming verb from root.. It may look same... That's how all Arabic words... For example take word salah.. Root is ṣād lām wāw (S L W)..
All noun is not prayer and while forming Verb from root it may look similar but different meaning... Example 3:39 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) praying... 33:43 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) blessing...

So 'Sawm' 19:26 is same root but different meaning...  Most probably being Silent...

Dear sister.. Just once again carefully look the word 'Nadzrathu' in 19:26 .. Do you accept it means Vow (pledging or making a solemn promise)... It is a vow even you accept or not.. Take example of another word 'nadzarthu'.. Maryam's mother made in verse 3:35 "when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged (Nadzarthu) to You(God) what is in my womb, consecrated so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
These pledging or solemn promise or vow (Nadzarth) is not at all part of compulsory act in deen.. It is one's own wish willingly and they decide in their own to do something for God.. But whether God accept or not such act is only within God's decision... But once anyone made such solemn promise is not exempted from doing it.. They have to accomplish it... Suppose If I promise to God that I will give 100 poor people with new clothing if I pass the exam... So in case if he passes he has to accomplish it... Coz it is an agreement you made with your Lord.. You can't escape... That's my understanding...

So my dear sister... What is prescribed by Allah to perform in 2:184 is not a Vow... It's a command of God and not our own option..
Pls try to ponder...
That's all dear..

Note: if one vows or make a solemn promise to God saying "If I found my lost child,  I would fast five days...  Then in case she or he found the child she or he should fast five days...  People may vow anything making a contact with God.. So it should be accomplished...  76:7 "They fulfill [their] vows(Nadzar) and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread"
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Iyyaka on December 07, 2019, 05:21:14 AM
peace,

Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.

On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?

Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were me :

Further explanations
- The day can be divided in 2 parts : from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue

- The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.

Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above) :

1) First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics :
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? NO.

2) Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics :
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? YES.

This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking") must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: Mohammed. on January 15, 2020, 10:17:09 AM
salaam,

But from its(SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,

I make it "But from its (human SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,"
Examples, 12:100, 17:107,109, 19:58 etc.
Title: Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
Post by: huruf on January 15, 2020, 11:33:57 AM
The definition of siyam in this verse :


19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.

Concerning Maryam, the event is related to her having the newborn child with her and her being asked about it. So she is advised to say (and that means speaking) that she has vowed to the Rahmaan sawm and therefore that day will not speak to anybody. That continues even when she returns to her people and she does not anser questions about the child, simply points to him. So it is all related to her bein in the situation she was, as a other with newborn or baby, no husband or fathe and it is following devine advise that she does not answer questions because she has vowed thatto the Rahmaan.

Salaam