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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 03:22:42 AM

Title: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 03:22:42 AM
Verses 22:39-41 …….

I am not satisfied with any of the translations available for whatever the reasons for above verses of quran… My heart doesn’t accept any of them… something bothers me while reading the verses without being able to get any meaning by using religious places…specially mentioning of religious places such Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues, Mosques… I feel like (sawamiu) ~~ Reform centers, (Bi’au) ~~~Trading or Business or Fare, (Salawat) ~~~ Morals / Ethics,  (Masajid) ~~~ Sanctuaries ( natural & man erected)..
Does anyone think in a different way to all the translations or even direct Arabic words? Or are you perfectly fine with religious places as translated or take the quranic words as religious places..…

If anyone has totally different translation or understanding pls comment… I searched whether it is discussed before in the forum but could not find exactly..
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Iyyaka on November 06, 2019, 04:59:05 AM
Peace,

Here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427297#msg427297 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427297#msg427297)
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 06, 2019, 05:31:27 AM
Verses 22:39-41 …….

I am not satisfied with any of the translations available for whatever the reasons for above verses of quran… My heart doesn’t accept any of them… something bothers me while reading the verses without being able to get any meaning by using religious places…specially mentioning of religious places such Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues, Mosques… I feel like (sawamiu) ~~ Reform centers, (Bi’au) ~~~Trading or Business or Fare, (Salawat) ~~~ Morals / Ethics,  (Masajid) ~~~ Sanctuaries ( natural & man erected)..
Does anyone think in a different way to all the translations or even direct Arabic words? Or are you perfectly fine with religious places as translated or take the quranic words as religious places..…

If anyone has totally different translation or understanding pls comment… I searched whether it is discussed before in the forum but could not find exactly..

Read with what is done within them. Do people do that in trading centers?
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 08:15:01 AM
Read with what is done within them. Do people do that in trading centers?

Peace brother Mazhar

Would pls elaborte it rather than I guess something else by what you hsve  written....
Further can you translate those four words and explain the meaning...

Dear Brother Iyyaka...
So.... You don't go in line with major translations... It means you have found it differently.... Can you explain those three verses... Don't translate but explain what you get by the three verses to get a better picture ...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 06, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Peace brother Mazhar

Would pls elaborte it rather than I guess something else by what you hsve  written....
Further can you translate those four words and explain the meaning...

Dear Brother Iyyaka...
So.... You don't go in line with major translations... It means you have found it differently.... Can you explain those three verses... Don't translate but explain what you get by the three verses to get a better picture ...


لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ

Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished wherein the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

So these places are where people go for prayer or one may say worship. Thereby in simple terms these are referring religious places where people congregate for no other purpose but to remember and mention Allah.

Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 09:00:39 AM

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ

Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished wherein the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

So these places are where people go for prayer or one may say worship. Thereby in simple terms these are referring religious places where people congregate for no other purpose but to remember and mention Allah.

So... You go inline with all major translations... Fine... You highlighted may be to say in masajid God's name remembered much.... In fact the verse only says masajid... Right.. Not all  God's name remembered.... Somehow those places God's name not remembered ... Is it fair..
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 06, 2019, 09:05:36 AM
So... You go inline with all major translations... Fine... You highlighted may be to say in masajid God's name remembered much.... In fact the verse only says masajid... Right.. Not all  God's name remembered.... Somehow those places God's name not remembered ... Is it fair..

No, all that are mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
No, all that are mentioned earlier.

Are you sure?.. Feehi or feeha is Singular.. Right... And feminine..  :confused:...pls explain better...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 06, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
Are you sure?.. Feehi or feeha is Singular.. Right... And feminine..  :confused:...pls explain better...

Some time try to skim some grammar book. Feminine Ha is used to refer broken plural objects since then they are grammatically treated singular.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/4.gif) is used 244 times in Ayahs. At the very first place it refers feminine broken plural noun.

http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm)

Easy to see its use in all ayahs use search engine by F-3 on this text page of Full Qur'an on my website

http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html (http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html)
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Iyyaka on November 06, 2019, 01:58:55 PM
Dear Brother Iyyaka...
So.... You don't go in line with major translations... It means you have found it differently.... Can you explain those three verses... Don't translate but explain what you get by the three verses to get a better picture ...
Peace,

I have added more information for reflection in my post https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427316#msg427316 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427316#msg427316)
I hope that highlighting the structure of this passage and the inter-connected elements will help your reflection.

Sorry not to answer directly and much longer (top long here - even if colour and structure has "obvious" meaning) but otherwise we must first ask the question: what is the relationship between the ROOT of these words and the proposed STANDARD translations ?
It is "clearly" for me a lexical entry...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 04:48:07 PM
Some time try to skim some grammar book. Feminine Ha is used to refer broken plural objects since then they are grammatically treated singular.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/4.gif) is used 244 times in Ayahs. At the very first place it refers feminine broken plural noun.

http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm)

Easy to see its use in all ayahs use search engine by F-3 on this text page of Full Qur'an on my website

http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html (http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html)

Let's hope as you say feeha is plural as well... But this feeha is feminine plural you say... But those four words are not merely feminine.... So is it possible to use feeHa for both (feminine and masculine) ...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 05:02:21 PM
Peace,

I have added more information for reflection in my post https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427316#msg427316 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427316#msg427316)
I hope that highlighting the structure of this passage and the inter-connected elements will help your reflection.

Sorry not to answer directly and much longer (top long here - even if colour and structure has "obvious" meaning) but otherwise we must first ask the question: what is the relationship between the ROOT of these words and the proposed STANDARD translations ?
It is "clearly" for me a lexical entry...
Thank you I will read and try to grasp what I grasp...
Meanwhile.... The repelling from homes and demolishing all religions places have no connection I guess... Unless we go for some other meaning other monasteries etc...
In verse 41 it speaks of entrusting power... And make establish salat.and Zakath ... If Salat here prayer and Zakath (giving)  I don't think they have any right to do so being rulers... That doesn't make sense... If attempting to establish Morals and thus trying to bringforth purification to society is much meaningful.... They should do that as leaders specially as believjng leaders....
That's why I don't prefer those four words in a way to be translated as religious places... If they corrupt and demolish the morals and people's trading and mainly sanctuaries which are inevitable those days for various imperative purposes... So God check those do such act by some others so  morals or ethics of a nation prevails.....
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 06, 2019, 09:28:06 PM
Some time try to skim some grammar book. Feminine Ha is used to refer broken plural objects since then they are grammatically treated singular.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/4.gif) is used 244 times in Ayahs. At the very first place it refers feminine broken plural noun.

http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm)

Easy to see its use in all ayahs use search engine by F-3 on this text page of Full Qur'an on my website

http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html (http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html)

Peace brother Mazhar...

I checked most of those Fee-Ha verses but i only see quran refers to some feminine singular matter and referring it that feminine matter and uses Fee-Ha... i checked out of those 244 many.. still i could not find a broken plural for Fee-Ha.... the moment i write this thread also i am checking out those 244 but still not... can you bring specifically five verses which refers plural using Fee-HA....
if in case all Fee-Ha refers feminine singular in entire quran, then we have to look seriously the verse 22:40 what it refers as fee-Ha.... i am checking all 244 verses to be sure.. give me some time...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 06, 2019, 11:34:18 PM
Peace brother Mazhar...

I checked most of those Fee-Ha verses but i only see quran refers to some feminine singular matter and referring it that feminine matter and uses Fee-Ha... i checked out of those 244 many.. still i could not find a broken plural for Fee-Ha.... the moment i write this thread also i am checking out those 244 but still not... can you bring specifically five verses which refers plural using Fee-HA....
if in case all Fee-Ha refers feminine singular in entire quran, then we have to look seriously the verse 22:40 what it refers as fee-Ha.... i am checking all 244 verses to be sure.. give me some time...

Something seems gone wrong with you. At the very first use it is for plural.


أَنَّ لَـهُـمْ جَنَّٟتٛ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِـهَا ٱلۡأََنْـهَٟرُۖ

That gardens are in wait- prepared- promised for them where streams flow on lower side by her.

کہ اُن کیلئے ایسے باغات منتظر ہیں جن کے پائیں نہریں بہتی ہیں۔

كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا۟ مِنْـهَا مِن ثَمَـرَةٛ رِّزْقٙاۙ

-- Every time they were fed variety of fruit from them (gardens) as sustenance —

جب جب اُن باغات کے پھلوں میں سے کھانے کوانہیں رزق دیا جائے گا

قَالُوا۟ هَـٟذَا ٱلَّذِى رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ؜ۖ

They said: "This fruit is alike which was given to us as sustenance foretimes--
تو کہیں گے کہ یہ وہ رزق ہے جو ہمیں پہلے مل چکا ہے۔

وَأُتُوا۟ بِـهِۦ مُتَشَٟبِـهٙاۖ

And they were given things in resemblance of their perceptions --.

اور اُس (دنیا میں دیئے رزق)سے مشابہت رکھنے والا رزق دیا جائے گا۔

وَلَـهُـمْ فِيـهَآ أَزْوَٟجٚ مُّطَهَّرَةٚۖ

And that spouses of purified- clean heart as companions-mates are assured for them therein.

اوراُن( باغات) میں ان کیلئے ازواج مطھرۃ؍پاکیزہ تصورات کے حامل ازدواجی ساتھی ہوں گے۔

وَهُـمْ فِيـهَا خَٟلِدُونَ.2:25٢٥

And they will abide therein permanently. [2:25]

(اوریہ لوگ ان(باغات)میں ہمیشہ رہائش پذیررہیں گے۔ (البقرۃ۔۲۵


Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Iyyaka on November 06, 2019, 11:40:07 PM
Thank you I will read and try to grasp what I grasp...
Meanwhile.... The repelling from homes and demolishing all religions places have no connection I guess... Unless we go for some other meaning other monasteries etc...
In verse 41 it speaks of entrusting power... And make establish salat.and Zakath ... If Salat here prayer and Zakath (giving)  I don't think they have any right to do so being rulers... That doesn't make sense... If attempting to establish Morals and thus trying to bringforth purification to society is much meaningful.... They should do that as leaders specially as believjng leaders....
That's why I don't prefer those four words in a way to be translated as religious places... If they corrupt and demolish the morals and people's trading and mainly sanctuaries which are inevitable those days for various imperative purposes... So God check those do such act by some others so  morals or ethics of a nation prevails.....
Sorry but not just "read" but concentrate - Your comment show that you don't really take time to analyse my post and don't make your" preference" dictate your comprehension but ONLY Allah's signs.

In the verse 41 yes ALL the verses are in the past form and the criticism is about the notables of quraych - so using modern name places of worship for these 4 words is doing ANACHRONISM (mix different times...) [we are agree with that]

Peace
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 07, 2019, 12:50:48 AM
Something seems gone wrong with you. At the very first use it is for plural.


أَنَّ لَـهُـمْ جَنَّٟتٛ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِـهَا ٱلۡأََنْـهَٟرُۖ

That gardens are in wait- prepared- promised for them where streams flow on lower side by her.

کہ اُن کیلئے ایسے باغات منتظر ہیں جن کے پائیں نہریں بہتی ہیں۔

كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا۟ مِنْـهَا مِن ثَمَـرَةٛ رِّزْقٙاۙ

-- Every time they were fed variety of fruit from them (gardens) as sustenance —

جب جب اُن باغات کے پھلوں میں سے کھانے کوانہیں رزق دیا جائے گا

قَالُوا۟ هَـٟذَا ٱلَّذِى رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ؜ۖ

They said: "This fruit is alike which was given to us as sustenance foretimes--
تو کہیں گے کہ یہ وہ رزق ہے جو ہمیں پہلے مل چکا ہے۔

وَأُتُوا۟ بِـهِۦ مُتَشَٟبِـهٙاۖ

And they were given things in resemblance of their perceptions --.

اور اُس (دنیا میں دیئے رزق)سے مشابہت رکھنے والا رزق دیا جائے گا۔

وَلَـهُـمْ فِيـهَآ أَزْوَٟجٚ مُّطَهَّرَةٚۖ

And that spouses of purified- clean heart as companions-mates are assured for them therein.

اوراُن( باغات) میں ان کیلئے ازواج مطھرۃ؍پاکیزہ تصورات کے حامل ازدواجی ساتھی ہوں گے۔

وَهُـمْ فِيـهَا خَٟلِدُونَ.2:25٢٥

And they will abide therein permanently. [2:25]

(اوریہ لوگ ان(باغات)میں ہمیشہ رہائش پذیررہیں گے۔ (البقرۃ۔۲۵

Really confused brother not being able to get a clear picture… you know I have no knowledge of this arabic grammar… but I won’t fail to verify though…. Let’s see I may get some assistance..
The above verse Fee-Ha refers to Janna (feminine)… I know the Janna mentioned is plural…. But what God refers is to Janna…. Some verses I have seen while checking not at all referred to Hell but explanation is about Hell so, God used Fee-Ha to refer Hell without the word being mentioned in quran… cannot remember the verse no...  if Fee-Ha used then it has to be feminine only… isn’t it? Then why not use Fee-Hi…
For example 2:2… referring the Book (masculine) and used no doubt IN IT (Fee-Hi) addressing the book.
Can you bring one couple of verses which refers to Singular Masculine object but used as Fee-HA…
Is this fee-HA is something like this… Could be used for :
•   Singular Feminine (verified)
•   Plural Feminine (verified)
•   Singular Masculine
•   Plural Masculine
•   Singular Feminine and masculine
•   Plural Feminine and Masculine

please cooperate for clarificaiton...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 07, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
Sorry but not just "read" but concentrate - Your comment show that you don't really take time to analyse my post and don't make your" preference" dictate your comprehension but ONLY Allah's signs.

In the verse 41 yes ALL the verses are in the past form and the criticism is about the notables of quraych - so using modern name places of worship for these 4 words is doing ANACHRONISM (mix different times...) [we are agree with that]

Peace

Yes... brother.. concentrate is the right word i guess.. but i said read and try to grasp... hope you thought only reading... but honestly i am still stuck... not getting what these three verses in fact up to and what those four words is really are .. Why all of a sudden Salawat becomes synagogues .... If what Mazhar says is right about Fee-Ha then conventional translations may work.... thank you again...I wish i get better picture of these asap...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 07, 2019, 01:40:37 AM
Dear Brother Mazhar

is this rule only applicable with Fee-HA or generally with 'Ha' (posseive pronoun) itself... coz.. when you read the verse you presented it has words like 'Thahthi-HA' and 'Min-HA' which refers to Janna... but these 'Ha' usually singular feminine.. right... but in the verse Janna is plural and these two 'HA' are pointing to Janna in singular form...

pls any expert specially in grammar Arabic may cooperate with kindness for making things in black and white....
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 07, 2019, 03:01:39 AM
Dear Brother Mazhar

is this rule only applicable with Fee-HA or generally with 'Ha' (posseive pronoun) itself... coz.. when you read the verse you presented it has words like 'Thahthi-HA' and 'Min-HA' which refers to Janna... but these 'Ha' usually singular feminine.. right... but in the verse Janna is plural and these two 'HA' are pointing to Janna in singular form...

pls any expert specially in grammar Arabic may cooperate with kindness for making things in black and white....

Perhaps you are confusing two different pronouns.
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/1.gif) Prepositional Phrase. Object pronoun is Third person, singular, masculine refers to a singular masculine antecedent.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/5.gif) Prepositional Phrase. Object Pronoun third person, singular, feminine referent for singular feminine antecedent. It will be used also when the antecedent is broken plural feminine objects; it is so because feminine broken plural is grammatically singular.
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Iyyaka on November 07, 2019, 04:27:19 AM
Yes... brother.. concentrate is the right word i guess.. but i said read and try to grasp... hope you thought only reading... but honestly i am still stuck... not getting what these three verses in fact up to and what those four words is really are .. Why all of a sudden Salawat becomes synagogues .... If what Mazhar says is right about Fee-Ha then conventional translations may work.... thank you again...I wish i get better picture of these asap...
Salam,
For Fiha already talk about here (and Mazhar give u answer previously) https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610831.0 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610831.0)
and Fiha refers to masjids (we have to respect the order of words made by Allah)

"sudden Salawat becomes synagogues"
=> Check the use of this form in all the quran and Allah will give u the answer - the rest is from human historical
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 07, 2019, 09:05:25 PM
Peace everyone....

2:266 “Would one of you like to have a garden(JANNA-singular feminine) of palm trees and grapevines underneath (Thahthi-HA..singular feminine) which rivers flow in which (Fee-HA) he has from every fruit? But he is afflicted with old age and has weak offspring, and falls on it (Fa-Asaba-HA ..singular feminine) by a whirlwind containing fire and is burned. Thus does Allah make clear to you [His] verses that you might give thought.”

2:25 “And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens (JANNAA-plural feminine) beneath which (Thahthi-HA ..singular feminine) rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit from it (Min-HA .. singular feminine), they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein (Fee-HA .. Feminine singular) purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.”

To be clear let’s separate the word ‘HA’ … this word ‘HA’ should be always Feminine Singular unless and otherwise attached with word ‘FEE’ only… is that what is Arabic grammar says… it seems like ‘Fee-Hi’ has no issue  and it looks like always masculine and singular… may be and may not be right my assumption.. pls clarify…

But let’s concentrate with ‘Fee-HA’ which is the concern in 20:40..…. This word is generally or predominantly used to denote Singular feminine  in quran but still used for plural feminine (mostly to Janna)…

But ‘HA’ in its own is only feminine.. right? And when joined to other words other than ‘FEE’ this ‘HA’ it should mean singular feminine … is that correct way of understanding? Or when attached to other words also same rule of FEE-HA applies.. I don’t think so…since Mazhar’s total concern was on Fee-HA..

If above pattern is right…Then the verse 2:25 and 2:266 has entirely different character..
In 2:266 object is GARDEN (singular feminine) ..so, rightly used to denote the garden by preposition ‘HA’ (singular fem.) in words like ‘Thahthi-HA’  or ‘ Asaaba-HA’ … As well the joining of ‘FEE-HA’ here meant singular feminine… No issues at all according to gramar… isn’t it?
In 2:25  Object is GARDENS (Plural feminine) .. so, why denote it with preposition ‘HA’ (singular) such as ‘Thahthi-HA or Min-HA instead of ‘HUNNA’…. Or this ‘HA’  also denote plural and singular regardless of any rule… that’s bit awkward for pure Arabic… or this mere ‘HA’ itself broken feminine plural..

Or else God only refers to Garden (Paradise) which is ONE though of variety..
Unfortunately I didn’t see a single verse same as 22:40 referring many mixed (feminine & masculine plural) words and denoting it with Fee-HA… unless I skipped..

i would like add for arabic precision these two verses 2:2 Book(masculine) No doubt in it (La raib Fee-Hi) & 18:21 The Hour(feminine) No doubt in it (La raib Fee-Ha)... So God is precise... unless in 22:40 translators not able to find what masjid is in fact in arabic and translated as Mosque and given the gender as masculine... Something is definitely bothering....
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 08, 2019, 03:42:59 AM


(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Prepositions/001.%20Fe%20place%20and%20time/5.gif) Prepositional Phrase. Object Pronoun third person, singular, feminine referent for singular feminine antecedent. It will be used also when the antecedent is broken plural feminine objects; it is so because feminine broken plural is grammatically singular.
lets see above quote of Mazhar is correct with below explanation..

https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/broken-plural-in-arabic/

I got some assistance by this link to understand plurals and irregular plurals.

Though a word singular change to plural, it won’t become from feminine to masculine or vice versa.. in all 3 types of plurals of arabic..
So based on that let us see the below verses…
24:27-28 “O you who have believed, do not enter houses (Buyuth- plural. Masculine) other than your own houses until you ascertain welcome and greet their inhabitants (Ahli-HA .. sing. fem). That is best for you; perhaps you will be reminded. And if you do not find anyone therein (Fee-Ha), do not enter them (Thadhulu-HA…  sing. femi) until permission has been given you.
When it says ‘AHLI-HA’ it means the “Inhabitants of the house” not houses.. but why ‘HA’ while the house is masculine…
They consider Bayt as masculine  singular and plural Buyuth is irregular plural masculine.. okay but not feminine to be called ‘HA’ …
What in fact God refer here… Can we get some assistance from these verses for the concerned verse 22:40
Am I weird in this topic.. am I talking about something that is crystal clear for everyone in general who knows Arabic, and I am grinding it.  :& :confused:...?
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 08, 2019, 05:56:46 PM
 33:64-65 "Indeed, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a Blaze(sa'eer) , Abiding in it (Fee-Ha) forever, they will not find a protector or a helper"

This is the verse I was talking about in my thread or rather reply #15...here Jaheem or Naar are not mentioned which refers to Hell and these two words are feminine as well... But still God used 'Fee-Ha' to denote Hell... And this fee-ha not denoting the word Sa'eer (blaze ,,,,, masculine)....

I think some strange pattern is applied... I am digging deep.. Anticipate God clarify me...

 
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 09, 2019, 07:11:29 PM
2:114 "And who are more unjust than those who prevent the name of Allah from being mentioned in it (Fee-HA) in mosques(masajid) of Allah and strive toward their destruction(Kharabi-Ha) . It is not for them to enter them(Yadkhulu-Ha) except in fear. ,..........."

Now let's see we can get some support by this verse.. Masajid used here and and remembering God is mentioned same like 22:40... Used to denote with 'HA' and with 'Fee-HA'... Remember masjid generally considered in modern Arabic dictionaries as masculine....

9:108 "Do not stand  within it (Fee-Hi) ever. A mosque(Masjid) founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy for you to stand in (Fee-Hi) Within it(Fee-Hi) are men who love to purify themselves; and Allah loves those who purify themselves"

Just compare this verse now... It clearly seems man made building etc ... God used "HI" instead of 'HA' also used 'Fee-Hi'..  Remember both verses referring Masjid(Masculine) only....

Is Masjid two types? One Masculine and one Feminine....
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 09, 2019, 11:22:02 PM
Peace...
Also note the verse 2:162 where 'Fee-HA' is stated but nowhere the Hell or Naar is mentioned in preceding verses or following verses... But God talk about Hell and used 'Fee-HA'.....or it talks about Curse of Allah...
Better to study the Quran within Quran...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 10, 2019, 02:51:49 AM
11:41"And [Noah] said, "Embark In it(Fee-Ha) in the name of Allah is its course(Majra-HA) and its anchorage(Mursa-HA). Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

The above verse object is SHIP... And it is considered as masculine...
But God used 'Fee-HA' and 'HA' to denote the ship in feminine form... ..
God says that there is no contradiction in the book and preserve it... So... That is what we take undeniably.... But we are living in a modern world where languages are changed from its origin to certain extent.. .. ..languages are not preserved in its pure form..
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 10, 2019, 03:50:13 AM
11:41"And [Noah] said, "Embark In it(Fee-Ha) in the name of Allah is its course(Majra-HA) and its anchorage(Mursa-HA). Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

The above verse object is SHIP... And it is considered as masculine...
But God used 'Fee-HA' and 'HA' to denote the ship in feminine form... ..
God says that there is no contradiction in the book and preserve it... So... That is what we take undeniably.... But we are living in a modern world where languages are changed from its origin to certain extent.. .. ..languages are not preserved in its pure form..

 29:15 "But We saved him and the companions of the ship (Shafeena), and We made it a sign for the worlds"

We know Nuh built a ship with God's instructions... It is called 'Fulk' in Arabic which is considered masculine in current Day Arabic .. The same Nuh's ship God called it as 'Shafeena' in verse 29:15.... This Shafeena is feminine... Only one ship Nuh built... Why call it masculine in one place and feminine in another.... God is apt in calling it in feminine form... But something wrong in Arabic of dictionaries....
Something to ponder.. Isn't it? Definitely for me...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 10, 2019, 05:26:19 PM
20:18-19 "He said, "It (Hiya) is my staff(masculine); I lean upon it(Alai-Ha), and I bring down leaves for with it (Bi-HA) my sheep and I have therein (Fee-HA) other uses. He said, Throw it down(Alki-HA) O! Musa"

All perfectly matching for feminine singular... But 'Staff' of musa is masculine singular in current Arabic...
Is God right or dictionaries?
And refer verse 11:44 where God says the ship of Nuh rested.. 'WA'isThawath"  "It Rested" clearly feminine the ship is...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 10, 2019, 07:39:06 PM
Verses such as 16:15, 22:36, 23:21, 36:71, 40:79 are mentioned mainly An'Aam and Bud'na which means Cattle generally... These in nowadays dictionary masculine I guess since corpus has taken them as masculine...
But such words for God feminine clearly.. Coz of the structure of verses....
So clearly dictionaries won't tally with certain words of Quran when applying gender to them...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 10, 2019, 08:42:36 PM
Peace everyone....
It was hefty and painstaking research but I have comprehensively studied the verses which occur Fee-HA in entire quran, honestly not only those verses but surrounding verses of them to get clear evidence  ... In my study I don't see any reason why God should use 'Fee-HA' in verse 22:40 and refer those four religious places  ..... God definitely meant only one out of four and  most appropriate is Masajid....  FeeHa never qualifies to be applied to all the four items mentioned in verse 22:40 since quran never used in such manner though FeeHa appears in more than 240 places....
So if God used only to indicate Masajid with 'FeeHa' then it raises a very good question mark whether other three words in 22:40 are religious places at all since God claim only in Masajid His name is much remembered.... Even masajid not merely a religious place...
In addition to that 'Fee-HA' or merely 'HA' is incontrovertibly feminine by looking at the patten of Quran... Unfortunately current Arabic acceptance of Gender doesn't tally with Quran as I shown in my previous threads.. Also certain words meaning in current Arabic or dictionaries also not tally with Quranic words meaning....
If one totally dependent on what he or she learned in Arabic then he or she can easily call quran has flaws of Arabic grammar... Isn't it...
But flaw is not in Quran Arabic but what is prevailing among Arabs...
Even one word could give two meaning and that two meaning may have different gender.   
Other than what I have presented in my above thread I don't see any contractions of Quran and current Arabic acceptance relevant to Fee-Ha....
But I noticed there are other words which are not fit according to Quran's pattern... For example if a word is masculine then Min-Ha or Bi-Ha is used that's not correct if object considered masculine... .. So.. It shows current accepted Arabic has different approach compared with Quran when it identifies gender ..
If anyone to debate and dispute with my research then pls first study all 240+ appearances of 'Fee-HA' meticulously and debate... That's worthy.   
BTW thank you brother Mazhar for making my research easier by providing all those occurences of FeeHA...

May Allah guide us with what is true...
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Iyyaka on November 11, 2019, 10:08:41 AM
lets see above quote of Mazhar is correct with below explanation..

https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/broken-plural-in-arabic/

I got some assistance by this link to understand plurals and irregular plurals.

Though a word singular change to plural, it won’t become from feminine to masculine or vice versa.. in all 3 types of plurals of arabic..
So based on that let us see the below verses…
24:27-28 “O you who have believed, do not enter houses (Buyuth- plural. Masculine) other than your own houses until you ascertain welcome and greet their inhabitants (Ahli-HA .. sing. fem). That is best for you; perhaps you will be reminded. And if you do not find anyone therein (Fee-Ha), do not enter them (Thadhulu-HA…  sing. femi) until permission has been given you.
When it says ‘AHLI-HA’ it means the “Inhabitants of the house” not houses.. but why ‘HA’ while the house is masculine…
They consider Bayt as masculine  singular and plural Buyuth is irregular plural masculine.. okay but not feminine to be called ‘HA’ …

What in fact God refer here… Can we get some assistance from these verses for the concerned verse 22:40
Am I weird in this topic.. am I talking about something that is crystal clear for everyone in general who knows Arabic, and I am grinding it.  :& :confused:...?
Salam,

HA in 24-27 and 24-28 refers to the word buyūtan in 24-27 (Broken Masc. Plurial) and buyūtan are not reason-endowed being as we know it.

Peace.
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 11, 2019, 06:03:25 PM
Yes.... Iyykaka.... Now I know the pattern and rules why it applies... I was like in the middle of Sea and sinking... Now I feel I can swim to the shore... Lol
After the thorough study.... I can assure 22:40 never can be for those four words.  It's impossible to call Fee-Ha to those four plural mixed words with Fee-Ha... No such rules in Arabic to accept... And quran also never used such way to compare ... Fee-Ha only refer Masajid 22:40... That's my conviction with certainty....
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 11, 2019, 09:04:42 PM
Yes.... Iyykaka.... Now I know the pattern and rules why it applies... I was like in the middle of Sea and sinking... Now I feel I can swim to the shore... Lol
After the thorough study.... I can assure 22:40 never can be for those four words.  It's impossible to call Fee-Ha to those four plural mixed words with Fee-Ha... No such rules in Arabic to accept... And quran also never used such way to compare ... Fee-Ha only refer Masajid 22:40... That's my conviction with certainty....

Sometimes we have to deeply study and perceive the language and meaning and logic presented in Quran with much application of thought.... God speaks with truth and reality... Reality exposed in our minds may be different...
For example... When you read Musa reaching to certain place to learn from a teacher... Musa went with his assistant... And Musa found his teacher.... So we can blindly deduce there are three people (Musa, Assist & Teacher) .. But eversince musa met his teacher, Musa's assistant was missing...do you notice it... Only musa and his teacher were on the full journey... That we understand with the grammar of Quran... So this grammar cannot be taken easily... If God used in any pattern there is reason...going within Quran to get the Quran is the best option..
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Mazhar on November 11, 2019, 09:06:20 PM
Yes.... Iyykaka.... Now I know the pattern and rules why it applies... I was like in the middle of Sea and sinking... Now I feel I can swim to the shore... Lol
After the thorough study.... I can assure 22:40 never can be for those four words.  It's impossible to call Fee-Ha to those four plural mixed words with Fee-Ha... No such rules in Arabic to accept... And quran also never used such way to compare ... Fee-Ha only refer Masajid 22:40... That's my conviction with certainty....

Totally misconceived. Try knowing what is signified by conjunctions.
Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: Hizbullah on November 13, 2019, 09:11:31 PM
Yes.... Iyykaka.... Now I know the pattern and rules why it applies... I was like in the middle of Sea and sinking... Now I feel I can swim to the shore... Lol
After the thorough study.... I can assure 22:40 never can be for those four words.  It's impossible to call Fee-Ha to those four plural mixed words with Fee-Ha... No such rules in Arabic to accept... And quran also never used such way to compare ... Fee-Ha only refer Masajid 22:40... That's my conviction with certainty....

Salam brother

You are absolutely right!

 :peace:


Title: Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
Post by: jkhan on November 18, 2019, 06:44:46 AM
Salam brother

You are absolutely right!

 :peace:

Peace brother...

Sorry  for late reply... These days presidential election and concentration was on it... Unfortunately it seems bad time for minorities...
Okay... Would you pls explain why I am right?  So I can deduce something...pls explain within Quran what actually the verse speaks of within your knowledge ...