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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: jkhan on October 28, 2019, 09:35:12 PM

Title: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 28, 2019, 09:35:12 PM
Peace everyone....

Normally when we ask a dua or supplication we call only our Lord, Creator of Earth and Heavens and whatever between them….We don’t want to call anyone else and ask our dua… right?...When God used “WE” in verses we can simply deduce that between God and US another is in operation or assisting… That’s Angel Messengers…for example ….”WE destroyed them”  or We delivered the message or WE called Ibrahim…God, Angel messengers involved in doing such things for human…So WE could suit without doubt… that’s my understanding… if any other substantial understanding pls present…

But my question is relevant with below verse… or such similar verses…

37:75-76 “And Noah had certainly called US, (nādānā) and [We are] the best of responders. And WE saved him and his family from the great affliction.”

Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….
I tried but not yet in a position to perceive other than this option… only option came to my mind is like… Any Angel Messenger would have come to Prophet Nuh and during that time He would have told / discussed like to inform God (or whatever discussed is also God involved since they were Angel Messengers representing God)…pretty weird to first up.. but does “NADANA” suit otherwise?... another example… same way Ibrahim almost begged to God through guests Messengers…11:74 the word used is ( yujādilunā)-‘he argued with US’…. In fact Ibrahim was talking/arguing to/with the Angel guest Messengers, but God used the word “ARGUED WITH US’…. So what Angel spoke is in fact what God had to / meant to speak… So strange for me and thrilling.. Even simple dialogue of Angel Messengers on a mission to Human Messengers speaks on behalf of God and nothing they speak of themselves to be called by God precisely saying as ARGUED WITH US.. while only Angel Messengers and Human Messenger argued physically..

If not why Nuh called “NADANA”… hope you guys have better grasp of this matter…. Pls share your thoughts….
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: quincy on October 28, 2019, 10:02:04 PM
Peace jkhan!

As GOD is al-Malik (The Sovereign), the WE should be understood as a royal we.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we)
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 29, 2019, 01:06:52 AM
//Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….//

In trouble you call upon some powerful, holder of majesty for help. ''He called upon Our Majesty''. We have the concept of Majestic plural. Nothing unusual.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Bikrun on October 29, 2019, 01:26:28 AM

Salam,

They might not be the same:

14:1 ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy.

19:64 And we are not sent except by the authority of your Lord. To Him are our present and our future, and all that is in-between. And your Lord was never to forget.

God knows best
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 02:19:49 AM
//Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….//

In trouble you call upon some powerful, holder of majesty for help. ''He called upon Our Majesty''. We have the concept of Majestic plural. Nothing unusual.

Peace....

Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
38:41 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in11:74 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 11:45 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 37:75 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 37:75..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 37:75…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 11:74…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference..
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 02:25:08 AM
Salam,

They might not be the same:

14:1 ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy.

19:64 And we are not sent except by the authority of your Lord. To Him are our present and our future, and all that is in-between. And your Lord was never to forget.

God knows best

Peace....
That's right... the WE is used in common in quran that we understand... God + Angel Messengers involved in it.... unless God uses singular .. for example When God called Mosa... it is singular.. saying I am your Lord...not said We are your Lord.... that WE is common.. no issue.. in your example also same... but the concern is 37:75.... Why we need to call God in Plural while address only HIM...and not Messengers (Angel).... is my explanation complicated?
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Bikrun on October 29, 2019, 02:53:17 AM
Peace....
That's right... the WE is used in common in quran that we understand... God + Angel Messengers involved in it.... unless God uses singular .. for example When God called Mosa... it is singular.. saying I am your Lord...not said We are your Lord.... that WE is common.. no issue.. in your example also same... but the concern is 37:75.... Why we need to call God in Plural while address only HIM...and not Messengers (Angel).... is my explanation complicated?

Salam,

I have no answer but a simple and plain that Nuh called all forces to help him with his difficult task and all forces with the permission from the singular and one God responded to him.

Hope you can find a more interesting answer...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: quincy on October 29, 2019, 03:33:34 AM
I don't see any problem there, even if you consider the WE as GOD and the Malaika. He called them, it doesn't mean that he committed shirk of any kind. Malaika are a part of GOD and they only do as GOD wishes. Thats why you have Adonai (my Lords) as another synonym for GOD in the hebrew scriptures.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 03:42:14 AM
I don't see any problem there, even if you consider the WE as GOD and the Malaika. He called them, it doesn't mean that he committed shirk of any kind. Malaika are a part of GOD and they only do as GOD wishes. Thats why you have Adonai (my Lords) as another synonym for GOD in the hebrew scriptures.

He doesn't need to call anyone but ONLY God... coz we never call so.. right? and No need to ... Isn't God enough to listen to us?.. ufff... am i complicating the story....I wish i know perfect English....

Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone got my initial thread exactly by the responses I received… If you guys, understood my topic is as “Why it is used ‘WE’ instead of ‘I’ in quran if Allah is ONE”…. NO.. that’s not my topic. Pls grasp... Pls read again…All ‘WE’ and ‘I’ or phrases like ‘Our Lord’, ‘Their Lord’, etc etc etc.. used in quran are absolutely right with reason…no issues.. no issues for me at all…. God used obviously right…
Who is this ‘US’ in particular 11:74 and 37:75…. “Argued with US” and “Called US”.. how could that be possible? What could be the scenario? How can God say ‘argued with US’ while Ibrahim didn’t argue with God.. but with Messengers… How can God say ‘Called US’ while He is ONE and We don’t call via Messengers in Direct Dua…So… unless there was a dialogue for both the incidents between Nuh/Ibrahim and Angel Messengers… No dialogue ever will happen between Man and Angel Messenger unless God send an Angel messenger to human… so what Angel Messenger spoke is God’s words…. Concern is with Nuh coz… not clear about Angel messengers.. but Ibrahim angel messengers spoke with the verse.. that’s why I assume Nuh also would have spoken with Angel Messengers for God to call in identical manner as of Ibrahim’s incident … Do you get me pls or am I weird… solve this pls with logic..
God is ONE there is no doubt….
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: quincy on October 29, 2019, 03:49:11 AM
He doesn't need to call anyone but ONLY God... coz we never call so.. right?

Who said that? If you would drown in a lake would you call anyone else beside GOD? Calling to someone is different as to worship someone.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 03:58:45 AM
Who said that? If you would drown in a lake would you call anyone else beside GOD? Calling to someone is different as to worship someone.

hmm.. that's a point.. but that's different,.... we call for help.... but let's stick with the two verses in which Nuh and Ibrahim  involved with God.... They didn't  ask help from others .... did they?... this 'US' cannot be single... as we see in all 'WE' that is dual .. i.e. God+ .... So... 'US' should be God +..
pls study... before rushing to reply..... remember i am not convinced... i am here to get clarification... pls mind that... so don't rush that can confuse..
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 04:32:17 AM
Remember I meant by word "Call" is typically a Dua.... Not calling someone for help or any other...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Cerberus on October 29, 2019, 05:39:15 AM
It makes sense for God to use We if we understand the possibility that God is not necessarily quantifiable to one being with a persona.
For example, in the Stoic philosophy, often time they speak about the Logos, the phenomena that governs all things with reason or in Hinduism, the ultimate reality that is the Brahman. It's something but we don't know what it is exactly or what its nature is. But we mistakenly always think of God as someone with a name and a character etc, in the example of a person that could be drawn or made statues of. But that's not necessarily true.

What if God is like an organization, the executives and the workforce together. In the abrahamic religions Elohim and his Archangels. Or in other religions you have the supreme God and the minor god. etc.

So one could explore these different possibilities with thoughtfulness knowing none of it can be verifiable. or you could say for some reason God is using "We" to glorify himself and then call it a day.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: quincy on October 29, 2019, 05:49:24 AM
Personality is actually against GOD as a personality is attached to certain materialistic things and is formed by experience.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 08:29:59 AM
It makes sense for God to use We if we understand the possibility that God is not necessarily quantifiable to one being with a persona.
For example, in the Stoic philosophy, often time they speak about the Logos, the phenomena that governs all things with reason or in Hinduism, the ultimate reality that is the Brahman. It's something but we don't know what it is exactly or what its nature is. But we mistakenly always think of God as someone with a name and a character etc, in the example of a person that could be drawn or made statues of. But that's not necessarily true.

What if God is like an organization, the executives and the workforce together. In the abrahamic religions Elohim and his Archangels. Or in other religions you have the supreme God and the minor god. etc.

So one could explore these different possibilities with thoughtfulness knowing none of it can be verifiable. or you could say for some reason God is using "We" to glorify himself and then call it a day.

Let's not deviate from the topic of possible... Nature of God is a different big subject.... Of course we don't know how God looks.   We will never know till we see Him..
But God Claims He is ONE... God claims He is The God... He claims He is the god of Naas,  .. God claims is one God better or gods? God has names and ordered us to call by His names. .somehow He is ONE not two... He is not ilahain..... Or aaliha, but Wahid...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Cerberus on October 29, 2019, 09:30:13 AM
I actually hit the subject in its core.
ONE WHAT ? One person-like individual ? One environment ? One organization with its constituents ? One whole englobing everything else ?

The thing is, and whether you realize it or not, but most people think of God being one as in a single individual.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: quincy on October 29, 2019, 10:11:45 AM
Well the nearest to GOD are the Mala'ikah as he created them from pure light. GOD is an-Nur as well, i can pretty much imagine that they have a direct connection to as-Samad. In some Sufi orders people also call out to Jibril and other Mala'ikah - even to some saints. But does that mean that they are GOD? No, being divine is something else then GOD. GOD never forbid to make contact with Mala'ikah or even Jinn.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 29, 2019, 01:58:04 PM
Peace....

Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
38:41 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in11:74 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 11:45 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 37:75 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 37:75..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 37:75…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 11:74…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference..

When we call upon Allah, we use singular pronoun. When He the Exalted informs others about someone's call then uses the Plural Pronoun for expressing from Majestic point of view/perspective.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 10:49:23 PM
When we call upon Allah, we use singular pronoun. When He the Exalted informs others about someone's call then uses the Plural Pronoun for expressing from Majestic point of view/perspective.

would you pls bring me couple of verses other than these two verses for me to study...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 29, 2019, 11:24:05 PM
I actually hit the subject in its core.
ONE WHAT ? One person-like individual ? One environment ? One organization with its constituents ? One whole englobing everything else ?

The thing is, and whether you realize it or not, but most people think of God being one as in a single individual.

Peace Cerberus...

No you are not in line with subject.. you are deviating to one of the Greatest intricate topic....i hope you get me...

75:22-23 [Some] “Faces, that Day, will be radiant, Looking at their Lord.”
10:07 “those who hope not for their meeting with US ….. “ 18:105 “Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him … “
(singular and Plural)

Look at the difference… it shows we will see our Lord (in fact the radiant ones)… the next verse “Meeting with US”… it indicates… we will not only see God but His Messengers… in fact we will meet them on the day of Judgment.. But we meet Him definitely…
So God is ONE and VISIBLE …. Whatever the way He looks is irrelevant to the topic… Pls read my initial thread again if you have patience.... :(
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 30, 2019, 12:01:48 AM
would you pls bring me couple of verses other than these two verses for me to study...


إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ
[Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan] You the Exalted are the One and Only Whom we presently and henceforth solely and exclusively owe and demonstrate allegiance and servitude —

 آپ اور صرف آپ جناب ہیں جن کی بندگی ہم تسلسل سے بااظہارکرتے ہیں اور کرتے رہیں گے

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع ب د

وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِيـنُ .1:05٥
Moreover, You the Exalted are exclusively the One we keep looking for rendering the environment supportive and assisting to elevate ourselves. [1:5]

(اور صرف آپ ہیں جن سے اپنی شخصیت کواوج ثریا پر لے جانے کیلئے اعانت کے ہم طلبگار ہیں۔(۵

Explanation: Video (Urdu)  - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع و ن

ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٟطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيـمَ.1:06٦
Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan! You the Exalted do keep guiding us upon the High road that leads safely and stably to the destination of peace and tranquillity — [1:6]

[اِس لئے عام انسان کیلئے مختص کردہ اوج ثریاپر جانے کیلئے]
(آپ صراط مستقیم :منزل کی جانب رواں دواں رکھنے والے راستے پرہمیں رہنمائی؍/ہدایت دیتے رہیں۔(۶

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ھ د ى; ص ر ط; ق و م

We are calling. The Called is  by singular pronoun. It is so every where within and outside Qur'an.

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm)
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 30, 2019, 01:23:13 AM

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ
[Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan] You the Exalted are the One and Only Whom we presently and henceforth solely and exclusively owe and demonstrate allegiance and servitude —

 آپ اور صرف آپ جناب ہیں جن کی بندگی ہم تسلسل سے بااظہارکرتے ہیں اور کرتے رہیں گے

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع ب د

وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِيـنُ .1:05٥
Moreover, You the Exalted are exclusively the One we keep looking for rendering the environment supportive and assisting to elevate ourselves. [1:5]

(اور صرف آپ ہیں جن سے اپنی شخصیت کواوج ثریا پر لے جانے کیلئے اعانت کے ہم طلبگار ہیں۔(۵

Explanation: Video (Urdu)  - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع و ن

ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٟطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيـمَ.1:06٦
Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan! You the Exalted do keep guiding us upon the High road that leads safely and stably to the destination of peace and tranquillity — [1:6]

[اِس لئے عام انسان کیلئے مختص کردہ اوج ثریاپر جانے کیلئے]
(آپ صراط مستقیم :منزل کی جانب رواں دواں رکھنے والے راستے پرہمیں رہنمائی؍/ہدایت دیتے رہیں۔(۶

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ھ د ى; ص ر ط; ق و م

We are calling. The Called is  by singular pronoun. It is so every where within and outside Qur'an.

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm)

Peace brother...
thank you .... but i don't see hardly any connection to my question or my initial thread.with above explanatoin... those two verses are typical or rather unique in my understanding...but i didnt get the proper reply... .. let me wait ... in case someone get my point and get back ...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 30, 2019, 06:00:36 AM
Peace brother...
thank you .... but i don't see hardly any connection to my question or my initial thread.with above explanatoin... those two verses are typical or rather unique in my understanding...but i didnt get the proper reply... .. let me wait ... in case someone get my point and get back ...

Why you are not getting an answer; reason is you are staring with fixed eyes. Not looking any other side. Please re-read your problem

Quote
Normally when we ask a dua or supplication we call only our Lord, Creator of Earth and Heavens and whatever between them….We don’t want to call anyone else and ask our dua… right?...When God used “WE” in verses we can simply deduce that between God and US another is in operation or assisting… That’s Angel Messengers…for example ….”WE destroyed them”  or We delivered the message or WE called Ibrahim…God, Angel messengers involved in doing such things for human…So WE could suit without doubt… that’s my understanding… if any other substantial understanding pls present…

But my question is relevant with below verse… or such similar verses…

37:75-76 “And Noah had certainly called US, (nādānā) and [We are] the best of responders. And WE saved him and his family from the great affliction.”
Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….

Firstly how did Nuh alahissalam called him.


وَنَادَى نُوحٚ رَّبَّهُۥ

Know it; Noah [alai'his'slaam] had groaned to his Sustainer Lord —

فَقَالَ رَبِّ إِنَّ ٱبْنِى مِنْ أَهْلِـى

Thereat [because of passion for progeny] he said: "My Sustainer Lord! indeed my son was from my family —

Is this address in plural? And his Lord is telling us "He called upon Our Majesty". The true style of a Sovereign Lord.
Where is the confusion?


كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَـهُـمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٛ

Before them, the nation of Noah [alai'his'slaam] had publicly contradicted the people —

فَكَذَّبُوا۟ عَبْدَنَا وَقَالُوا۟ مَجْنُونٚ وَٱزْدُجِرَ .54:09٩

In response they contradicted publicly Our Sincere Allegiant and they said, "Obsessed by delusions", and he was taunted. [54:09]

فَدَعَا رَبَّهُۥٓ أَنِّـى مَغْلُوبٚ فَٱنتَصِرْ .54:10١٠

Thereat, he prayed to his Sustainer Lord, "Indeed I have become despairing/hopeless [seeing their persistent negative response], therefore, You do decide to help [conclude the matter]." [54:10]

Where is Plural in his prayer?
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 30, 2019, 08:53:46 AM
Peace....

Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
38:41 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in11:74 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 11:45 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 37:75 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 37:75..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 37:75…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 11:74…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference..

Brother Mazhr....
I am afraid you are still not picking me unfortunately.... And I still guess you have not focused on what I have tried to present and not read all threads... I have clearly stated I am not convinced... So I am not fixed... If am fixed I won't bring the concern to table.  Since I needed clarification I raised a topic.... Okay fine...
You have brought the same verse of Nuh and asking the same thing from me.. ... read reply#4...it shows you have not read... I said there is nothing wrong nuh calling direct...
Am I testing your patience? 😒..
Okay let me put this way... Do you say 'I worship /serve My Lord or Lords?   whom you serve(ibad)? You will only serve Your Lord. Right... Did God ever ask to serve/worship in plural? I hope No...He says to ""Serve ME""  If my memory ok... Correct me.. If wrong... So we are His Abdi... Right... So.. In case if God says OUR abd... Then are we slaves of God+
You notice OUR is used with Abd.... Like abdi-na...
So you call it Majesty.... I am not getting this right... I think I have to study in depth why it is...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 30, 2019, 09:11:30 AM
Brother Mazhr....
I am afraid you are still not picking me unfortunately.... And I still guess you have not focused on what I have tried to present and not read all threads... I have clearly stated I am not convinced... So I am not fixed... If am fixed I won't bring the concern to table.  Since I needed clarification I raised a topic.... Okay fine...
You have brought the same verse of Nuh and asking the same thing from me.. ... read reply#4...it shows you have not read... I said there is nothing wrong nuh calling direct...
Am I testing your patience? 😒..
Okay let me put this way... Do you say 'I worship /serve My Lord or Lords?   whom you serve(ibad)? You will only serve Your Lord. Right... Did God ever ask to serve/worship in plural? I hope No...He says to ""Serve ME""  If my memory ok... Correct me.. If wrong... So we are His Abdi... Right... So.. In case if God says OUR abd... Then are we slaves of God+
You notice OUR is used with Abd.... Like abdi-na...
So you call it Majesty.... I am not getting this right... I think I have to study in depth why it is...

Still not clear. Are you trying to explore why Allah uses plural pronoun which is referent for His Self?
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 30, 2019, 09:18:32 PM
Still not clear. Are you trying to explore why Allah uses plural pronoun which is referent for His Self?

Peace everyone..

7:143 “And when Moses arrived at OUR appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at YOU." [Allah] said, "You will not see ME, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see ME." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are YOU! I have repented to YOU, and I am the first of the believers."
20:12 “Indeed, I AM your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
Look at the above verses.. crystal clear… aren’t they?.. whenever plural, it gives the meaning that Messengers involved…whenever single, it is obvious that God is ONE.. for example God said “ … OUR appointed time …” so it shows Musa was given a prior message through a messenger/s to come to certain place”… OUR is manifest thus…coz God used Messengers..
In other occasions… singular precisely…
let’s leave the matter of Abdi-na aside for sometime… Abdi-na God’s statement and no human involved…  since my thread concerned with verses as I produced 37:75 & 11:74.. these are verses human involved in a dialogue not typical with Abdi-na 20:23 etc..

I ask you Brother Mazhar or anyone… Can you explain your understanding for these two verses 37:75 & 11:74 in this manner….i anticipate now I am clear what I am asking..

 

11:75 ----- With Whom Ibrahim argued?  Is it Angel Messengers only or God or both? .. use the word ‘yujādilu-nā’ to explain

37:75 ----- To whom Nuh called? To God directly OR through a dialogue with an Angel messenger/s? Use the word ‘nadā-nā’  to explain

Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 31, 2019, 12:37:08 AM
There is one thing in writings called perspective. When Allah tells something (informative text) to the audience and uses Plural pronoun for His Self, it refers only to Him and not that some others are standing along with Him, to use We while speaking to audience.

Look at the call of the callers. They call only ONE, not a group.


فَلَمَّا ذَهَبَ عَنْ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ ٱلرَّوْعُ وَجَآءَتْهُ ٱلْبُشْـرَىٰ

Resultantly as soon apprehension vanished from Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and good news had reached him —

يُجَـٟدِلُنَا فِـى قَوْمِ لُوطٛ .11:74٧٤

He started arguing with Our Majesty in the matter of nation of Luet [alai'his'slaam]. [11:74]

The discussion with the visitor Angels was over. Having come to know the mission for which Angels were sent, it is direct one to one interaction wherein he was pleading for the nation of Luet alahissalam who were to become the victim of punishment. And then Allah swt tells that he was contesting the case because of his nature. He was pleading before the ''King'' who had ordered punishment. Allah accordingly uses Majestic Pronoun for His Person.
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on October 31, 2019, 02:07:13 AM



يُجَـٟدِلُنَا فِـى قَوْمِ لُوطٛ .11:74٧٤

He started arguing with Our Majesty in the matter of nation of Luet [alai'his'slaam]. [11:74]



Brother.... Peace..

Honestly, i don't want to stress you on this anymore unless you have patience with me..... I feel you solely working hard on it... but i am not getting satisfied whenever i see the response...  :-[ :-[ ..... So.. it may make you unpleasant on the long run.... Coz it is not a debate in a manner.. but sort of resorting to clarification....
Is this your translation so.... it means you add a word Majesty which is not there in the word 'Nada'...
what is Majesty in Arabic or in Quran? Is there a word Majesty in quran.. .if so let me compare at least where it is used and for what reason......  :confused: :confused:
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Mazhar on October 31, 2019, 03:14:35 AM
Brother.... Peace..

Honestly, i don't want to stress you on this anymore unless you have patience with me..... I feel you solely working hard on it... but i am not getting satisfied whenever i see the response...  :-[ :-[ ..... So.. it may make you unpleasant on the long run.... Coz it is not a debate in a manner.. but sort of resorting to clarification....
Is this your translation so.... it means you add a word Majesty which is not there in the word 'Nada'...
what is Majesty in Arabic or in Quran? Is there a word Majesty in quran.. .if so let me compare at least where it is used and for what reason......  :confused: :confused:

I use two words where ever the name Allah is mentioned; the Exalted, since He is intrinsically Exalted. We are informed:


وَهُوَ ٱلْعَلِـىُّ ٱلْعَظِيـمُ .2:255٢٥٥

Remain vigilant; He is the One and only Exalted Supreme, the Greatest - the Almighty. [Refer 2:255]


عَٟلِمُ ٱلْغَيْبِ وَٱلشَّهَٟدَةِ

He the Exalted is the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible domains, continuously and simultaneously —

ٱلْـكَبِيـرُ ٱلْمُتَعَالِ .13:09٩

Indeed Allah the Exalted  is eternally the Greatest, The Exclusively most exalted Dominant. [13:09]


فَتَعَٟلَـى ٱللَّهُ ٱلْمَلَِكُ ٱلْحَقُّۗ

[they conjecture] Thus Allah is Exalted, truly and factually the Sublime Sovereign.

As a humble subject, we must mention the name of our Sovereign Lord with appropriate honorifics of grandeur.

 
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Hizbullah on November 03, 2019, 07:03:40 AM
Peace

FIRST OFF: Quran was the 2nd Book that was sent DIRECTLY to the 2nd Messenger Prophet – the Quranic Seal of the Prophets, just like the 1st Messenger-Prophet Moses but the only difference is that Moses was not able to see ALLAH directly but the Quranic Seal of the Prophets did! For this, please read Quran Chapter 53:01-20.

Further, ALLAH says in the Quran thru HIS Prophet

And not is for a MALE HUMAN BEING that ALLAH should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

From the above verse, ALLAH spoke to a male Human Being in a form of

A. Direct Revelation

B. Thru a Veil

C. Thru a Messenger - in this case it the Spiri Angel Messengers JIbril or Mikaal or both!

In the case of A, this Quran, Chapter 53 confirms that the revelation was directly reveal to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

In the case of B, the Prophets Joseph, Moses and his mother was spoken to "indirectly" in a veil without any 3rd party!

In the case of C, the Prophets Abraham, Lut, Esa and his mother - Mary, were spoken thru a 3rd Party - the Spirit Angel Messengers!


The use of the singular 1st Person

1 - God speaks in the singular 1st Person (I) to assert HIS absolute Oneness. This is in the Present Mode with respect to time when HE spoke directly to the Messenger-Prophet Musa and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministries respectively! The following are examples:

Inform My servants that I am the Ghafoor (Forgiver), the Raheem (Merciful). 15:49

I am God, there is no god but Me, therefore you shall worship Me and observe the Salat to commemorate Me. 20:14

This is Me, God, Lord of the worlds. 28:30

Such verses relate directly to the Oneness of God, as a result we will not find any verses which speak of the Oneness of God or of worshipping God alone that employ the plural pronoun.


2 - We also note that verses which speak of God’s attributes and God’s beautiful names are always phrased in the singular 3rd Person. In this case these verses were spoken by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets which he was conveying to the other Messengers of his ministry!

God bears witness that there is no god but HE. 3:18

God will suffice you against them; HE is the Samee (Hearer), the Aleem (Knowledgeable). 2:137

HE is Qahir (Supreme) over His servants. HE is the Hakeem (Wise), the Khabeer (All-Aware). 6:18

To God belongs the kingship of the heavens and the earth, and what is in them; HE is Qadeer (Capable) of all things. 5:120

This is a proclamation for the people, and with which they are warned, and for them to know that HE is but Wahid (One) god, and for those who possess intelligence to take heed. 14:52

3. The following Quranic words speak of God’s greatness and how it can never be comprehended by the human being.

They can never fathom the greatness of God. 39: 67


4 - The plural is also used in the Quran NOT because of Royal sense, but since the message was conveyed to his Majesty the Seal of the Prophets directly and he in turn conveyed the message to his disciples – the Messengers of his Ministry and further these verses are all in the PAST & PRESENT with respect to the Ministry of the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

We have sent messengers before you to their people. They came to them with clear proofs. Subsequently, We inflicted retribution on those who committed crimes and it was incumbent on Us to grant victory to the believers. 30:47

In 30:47 we read of three acts executed by God:

a- Messengers sent by God to guide the people from before
b- The punishment God inflicts on the criminals of those yesteryear
c- The victory granted by God to the believers of yesteryear

The three acts mentioned are not acts which take place during the Ministry of the Seal of the Prophets but in the Past, but they are all acts that are executed by a Supreme God to His servants. The plural here denotes the message of conveyance by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets! This implies to your question where the plural were used.

When Our command was issued, We saved Shu`aib and those who believed with him by mercy from Us. 11:94

A command issued by God in the PAST, thus the word ‘We’ and 'Us" is once again appropriate to denote the message of conveyance! The use of the plural is employed in the same manner in 11:40, 11:58,11:66 and those verse you mentioned!

In the Present - with respect to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministry, read Quran 28:44 to 46

5. In 16:40 we witness the use of the plural to denote God’s supreme majestic power and authority whenever God wishes for anything to come into existence: In this case it applies to the two Messenger Prophets – Moses and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets as they were acting on behalf of God HIMSELF!

Our word to anything when We will it, is to say to it, "Be" and it is. 16:40

Hope this help.

 :peace:

Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on November 03, 2019, 11:19:37 PM
Peace

FIRST OFF: Quran was the 2nd Book that was sent DIRECTLY to the 2nd Messenger Prophet – the Quranic Seal of the Prophets, just like the 1st Messenger-Prophet Moses but the only difference is that Moses was not able to see ALLAH directly but the Quranic Seal of the Prophets did! For this, please read Quran Chapter 53:01-20.

Further, ALLAH says in the Quran thru HIS Prophet

And not is for a MALE HUMAN BEING that ALLAH should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

From the above verse, ALLAH spoke to a male Human Being in a form of

A. Direct Revelation

B. Thru a Veil

C. Thru a Messenger - in this case it the Spiri Angel Messengers JIbril or Mikaal or both!

In the case of A, this Quran, Chapter 53 confirms that the revelation was directly reveal to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

In the case of B, the Prophets Joseph, Moses and his mother was spoken to "indirectly" in a veil without any 3rd party!

In the case of C, the Prophets Abraham, Lut, Esa and his mother - Mary, were spoken thru a 3rd Party - the Spirit Angel Messengers!


The use of the singular 1st Person

1 - God speaks in the singular 1st Person (I) to assert HIS absolute Oneness. This is in the Present Mode with respect to time when HE spoke directly to the Messenger-Prophet Musa and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministries respectively! The following are examples:

Inform My servants that I am the Ghafoor (Forgiver), the Raheem (Merciful). 15:49

I am God, there is no god but Me, therefore you shall worship Me and observe the Salat to commemorate Me. 20:14

This is Me, God, Lord of the worlds. 28:30

Such verses relate directly to the Oneness of God, as a result we will not find any verses which speak of the Oneness of God or of worshipping God alone that employ the plural pronoun.


2 - We also note that verses which speak of God’s attributes and God’s beautiful names are always phrased in the singular 3rd Person. In this case these verses were spoken by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets which he was conveying to the other Messengers of his ministry!

God bears witness that there is no god but HE. 3:18

God will suffice you against them; HE is the Samee (Hearer), the Aleem (Knowledgeable). 2:137

HE is Qahir (Supreme) over His servants. HE is the Hakeem (Wise), the Khabeer (All-Aware). 6:18

To God belongs the kingship of the heavens and the earth, and what is in them; HE is Qadeer (Capable) of all things. 5:120

This is a proclamation for the people, and with which they are warned, and for them to know that HE is but Wahid (One) god, and for those who possess intelligence to take heed. 14:52

3. The following Quranic words speak of God’s greatness and how it can never be comprehended by the human being.

They can never fathom the greatness of God. 39: 67


4 - The plural is also used in the Quran NOT because of Royal sense, but since the message was conveyed to his Majesty the Seal of the Prophets directly and he in turn conveyed the message to his disciples – the Messengers of his Ministry and further these verses are all in the PAST & PRESENT with respect to the Ministry of the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

We have sent messengers before you to their people. They came to them with clear proofs. Subsequently, We inflicted retribution on those who committed crimes and it was incumbent on Us to grant victory to the believers. 30:47

In 30:47 we read of three acts executed by God:

a- Messengers sent by God to guide the people from before
b- The punishment God inflicts on the criminals of those yesteryear
c- The victory granted by God to the believers of yesteryear

The three acts mentioned are not acts which take place during the Ministry of the Seal of the Prophets but in the Past, but they are all acts that are executed by a Supreme God to His servants. The plural here denotes the message of conveyance by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets! This implies to your question where the plural were used.

When Our command was issued, We saved Shu`aib and those who believed with him by mercy from Us. 11:94

A command issued by God in the PAST, thus the word ‘We’ and 'Us" is once again appropriate to denote the message of conveyance! The use of the plural is employed in the same manner in 11:40, 11:58,11:66 and those verse you mentioned!

In the Present - with respect to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministry, read Quran 28:44 to 46

5. In 16:40 we witness the use of the plural to denote God’s supreme majestic power and authority whenever God wishes for anything to come into existence: In this case it applies to the two Messenger Prophets – Moses and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets as they were acting on behalf of God HIMSELF!

Our word to anything when We will it, is to say to it, "Be" and it is. 16:40

Hope this help.

 :peace:

Thank you brother for sharing your thought… I don’t blame for what you perceive within quran… but let me go off topic and pose you certain questions to why you claim that the Prophet Messenger of Quran saw (physically) Allah directly and in addition to that claiming the quran was directly revealed book and not through other mediums? For you 53:1-20 seems enough to conclude your view…
But look below verses…
42:51 “And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, BY HIS PERMISSION, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.”  ~~~~ you already used this verse to support your claim but, Prophet Messenger of Quran is also a HUMAN like us… So to see God and TALK is impossible according the very glaring manifest verse…
2:97-98  “Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and HIS ANGELS AND HIS MESSENGERS AND GABRIEL AND MICHAEL - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.” ~~~~ These two glaring verse proves that the quran came through to us with the will of God using Gibreel mainly(or initially) and looking at the order of enemy list above in which Malaika + Messengers + Gibreel + Michael are indicated to ponder that Quran or any other God’s book would have been revealed through these sources…
16:102 “Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims."
26:192-195 “And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds. The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down Upon your heart, [O Muhammad] - that you may be of the warners”
~~~~ These crystal clear verses say entirely contrary to your claim.. Aren’t they? I am sure you are aware of it already… but let’s see what is your response to substantiate still what you claim..

Don’t ever with mere assumption consider that God directly spoke to Musa’s mother without third party behind a veil..…. That only an inspiration.. How God inspire to human is mystery … No one can say that.. Only those who are inspired knows it… Such inspirations are not only for human, probably to all his creatures at the inception… Coz He wants to guide their lives…

10:94 “So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.”
The above verse 10:94 will become piece of joke if you claim that Prophet received the revelation of quran directly and by seeing the God… What kind of prophet he is to doubt after seeing his Lord manifestly and knowing that it was revealed to him by God…  for what reason prophet has to approach those who read the scriptures before him while he has already seen his Creator…That’s super bizarre claim…

21:25 “And We sent never a Messenger before you except that We revealed(WAHI) to him, saying, 'There is no god but I, so serve Me.”
21:7 “And We sent not before you, [O Muhammad], except men to whom We revealed [WAHI], so ask the people of the message if you do not know.”
In the above verses 21:25 & 21:7 God confirms that all messengers before Mohamed was revealed… word used is WAHI that same word you took to substantiate your claim that Messenger of Quran spoke to God directly without screen… so God can inspire in any mode… How do you take WAHI as direct speech of God with HIS presence and if So, All messengers before Mohamed has spoken to God directly since you used WAHI to be direct Speech of God that also seeing God..
23:27 “So We inspired(WAHI) to him (Prophet Noah), "Construct the ship under Our observation, and Our inspiration(WAHI), and when Our command comes and the oven overflows, put into the ship
21:73 “And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired (WAHI) to THEM the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of US.”
20:48 “Indeed, it has been revealed(WAHI) to US(Musa + Harun) that the punishment will be upon whoever denies and turns away.”
If God denied to show Himself to Musa while talking to him, but the Earth couldn’t  bear it… Mountains powdered… How then God descended to Earth and came close to Mohamed .. is that what you claim by 53:1-20… that’s simply offline… God claimed in those verses that Prophet saw one of His signs and not God Himself..
You confused yourself…. Three Modes
A – Wahi…. Check all WAHI verses for better picture..
B – Behind a Screen
C – Sending an Angel Messenger…
Just carefully read quran and you will find the answer… B & C is very clear and totally different to ‘A’..
B = God’s real voice is audible to the listener but not possible to see The One who communicates with the listener …
C = Message is from God and God RELAYS His message thru His Angel Messenger to be delivered to Human who was chosen as human Messenger to deliver to People… …For this type of talk only God has used an extra phrase ‘BY HIS PERMISSION’… So other two mediums are direct from God…
A = inspiration / revelation (direct but not audible)… this is also a way of talking to human… Since already the category ‘B’ God’s audible voice is highlighted, then this ‘A’ or rather WAHI also cannot be in that group ‘B’.. otherwise God doesn’t need to segregate to THREE… … see the verse 99:05 “for that her Lord has inspired HER (Earth)” .. Here God doesn’t come to earth and show Himself and talk to the EARTH… but direct inspiration.. Earth knows that the Creator of IT inspired to do what it Does.. 19:11 “So he came out to his people from the prayer chamber and signaled (WAHI) to them to exalt [Allah] in the morning and afternoon.” ……. Very clear that God used WAHI here while Zackariya did not opted to speak to his people but still talked to them without speaking audible voice…that’s kind of real inspiration/revelation… but how God does, we have no idea.. look at this verse 6:112 “And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring (WAHI) to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.”


God has THREE ways of COMMUNICATING, it is not at all necessary to show HIMSELF.. that’s beyond truth as per Quran.. No evidence… all are mediums of mere communication and not visual… Quran or any of his previous scriptures would have been revealed in any of the three mediums (by one medium or two or three that God knows)… We can’t confirm that by only ONE medium it was revealed....But if you take the verses of SEND DOWN then the weight is for option  ‘C’… but I am not convinced …remember I don't say you are completely wrong in your study...further studies may make things manifest to us....
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Jafar on November 04, 2019, 08:37:57 AM
Because the entities (yes it's plural) whose saying were recorded has less ego (I) and more empathy and 'oneness' with others (we/us).

The basic concept is explained in this video:
Law Of One: The Seven Densities of Consciousness
https://youtu.be/seaJcY0kXjk?t=607

"We" is hard to be recognized without the existence of it's opposite "Them".
The conception of "we" is still relevant as the "we" still have it's own opposite polarity which labeled as "them".
"them" are those who choose to progress towards the path of strengthening their ego, the path that requires excessive amount of narcism, hatred, pride (glorifying of one or ourselves) and greed.


Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Hizbullah on November 09, 2019, 12:23:48 AM
Thank you brother for sharing your thought… I don’t blame for what you perceive within quran… but let me go off topic and pose you certain questions to why you claim that the Prophet Messenger of Quran saw (physically) Allah directly and in addition to that claiming the quran was directly revealed book and not through other mediums? For you 53:1-20 seems enough to conclude your view…
But look below verses…

Blame? Off topic? In order to explain your question which, I find quite diverse, I need to go back to many verses chapters in the Quran and not just cherry pick!

Did you read Quran Chapter 53? I wonder how you perceive the information given in that chapter? Do not take lightly the information as those sectarians! The Quran is a Book of Explanation no Assumption!
Here is Surah An-Najm verses 01 to 12: The context of the verses in this Chapter renders it even clearer.

In the Name of ALLAH Most Gracious

وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَى
{1} And the star when it sets!

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى
{2} Your companion has not strayed; he is not deluded;

The word “Your companion” is referring to the Prophet. The audience of the Arabic version Quran were the Arabs. So why was the Prophet referred to as a companion considering the fact that in the Quran mention the stories of Noah, Lut, Hud, Saleh and Shuaib, where these Messengers were referred to as Brothers to their people. Quran 14:04
And We did not send message of a Messenger except in the language of his people to state clearly for them…….
The above verse referring to the language and, in this case, the Arabic version Quran was sent to someone who spoke Arabic and his audience were the Arabs. If this is so, why in verse 2 of Chapter 53 mention the word “Companion” and not “Brother”? I will come to this later.

وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى
{3} he does not speak from his own desire.

Again, this is not referring to his human words as a man - what he said to his wives, children, and friends, but to the Qur'an. The "speech" of Prophet as the Narrator of the Qur'an. We learn this from the verse:

"This is the words/speech ( qawl / قَوْل ) of a honorable messenger." (Quran 69:40)
 (Very similar to Prophet Moses, where both were aka honorable Messenger and Messenger Prophet)

إِنْ هُوَ إِلا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى
{4} It is nothing less than an inspiration that is inspired to him

The Quran 69:43 - “sent down from the Lord of the two Realms.” When you read this, you have to read it in context! This verse is referring to the Prophet who received the Quran directly from the AlMighty Lord! If you study 02:97 – the Quran was sent down to someone (mention in 2nd Person) thru Jibril by permission of ALLAH! IN 26:192-193 – Quran sent down from God thru Jibril - Trustworthy Spirit to someone (mention in the 2nd Person)! Whenever the Quran mention 2nd Person with regards to the Quran, it is referring to someone mention in 09-40 and 16:103. That someone was a Rasul!

عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَى
{5} It was taught to him by one with Mighty Powers,
who can that be? Is it God Himself or the Angel Messenger?

ذُو مِرَّةٍ فَاسْتَوَى
{6} great strength, who stood
Again, the question is as above, who is this entity?

وَهُوَ بِالأُفُقِ الأَعْلَى
{7} on the highest horizon

ثُمَّ دَنَا فَتَدَلَّى
{8} and then approached––coming down

فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَى
{9} until he was two bow-lengths away or even closer

فَأَوْحَى إِلَى عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَى
{10} and revealed to HIS servant what HE revealed.

The verse above is in the 3rd Person – HIS SERVANT! Whose servant? Jibril as those sectarians concluded. If this is the case, the Prophet had 2 Masters – God and HIS Angel Messenger and that goes for us too! So, where it the logic?


مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَى
{11} [The Prophet’s] own heart did not distort what he saw.

The Prophet’s heart did not lie of what he saw! It is a grave accusation when someone accuse the Prophet of being a liar! The root word Ra Aliff Ya, means to see, to behold, to look, to notice, to regards, to consider; If you refer and compare to what Prophet Yusuf saw in his vision, the word use is Rukya – an idea or mental image of something. So, if the Prophet saw a vision, the word Rukya is use not Ro Aye!

أَفَتُمَارُونَهُ عَلَى مَا يَرَى
{12} Are you going to dispute with him what he saw?

Are you Mr Khan, having doubt / dispute about what the Prophet saw? Off course, you are having doubt just like those sectarians! Do not compare the Prophet with Prophet Moses, both have their own standards which the AlMighty God sets albeit both Prophets were of the same ranking – (they were both Messenger-Prophet and Honorable Messenger)! It is not appropriate for anyone to decide or think about the Prophets!


2:97-98  “Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and HIS ANGELS AND HIS MESSENGERS AND GABRIEL AND MICHAEL - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.” ~~~~ These two glaring verse proves that the quran came through to us with the will of God using Gibreel mainly(or initially) and looking at the order of enemy list above in which Malaika + Messengers + Gibreel + Michael are indicated to ponder that Quran or any other God’s book would have been revealed through these sources…

16:102 “Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims."

26:192-195 “And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds. The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down Upon your heart, [O Muhammad] - that you may be of the warners”
~~~~ These crystal clear verses say entirely contrary to your claim.. Aren’t they? I am sure you are aware of it already… but let’s see what is your response to substantiate still what you claim..

From the verses you have shown, both Jibreel and Mikaal are the ONLY 2 Angel-Messengers who were given the permission to convey the revelation to those Prophets/Chosen one!

In 02:97 – Jibreel aka Trustworthy Spirit (26:193) was given the permission to sent down/downloaded the Quran in a “SOFTWARE FORMAT” directly into the heart of the receipient of this Quran. Nowhere in the Quran mention Jibreel sent down the Quran in a physical Book Format and taught the recipient of the Quran!

In 16:101-102 – The abrogated verses - meaning verses already existed in an existing Book, abrogated and sent down by the Holy Spirit! Trustworthy Spirit and Holy Spirit – 2 different entities! Since Jibril aka Trustworthy Spirit, that means, Mikaal is the Holy Spirit! Simple Maths – 1 + 1 = 2! So from the context of the said verses, Mikaal brought down a Book with abrogated verses in a HARWARE FORMAT! This ABORAGTED VERSES IN HARWARE FORMAT WAS THE BOOK OF MOSES which were with the Jews, contemporaries of the Ministry of the Quranic Seal of the Prophets and the Messenger who received this Quran! Quran 32:23

And certainly, We gave Moses the Book (Furqan); SO DO NOT BE IN DOUBT OF RECEIVING IT: We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

Base on what I have already explained, it was the Prophet who conveyed the above verse (and the whole Quran) to his disciple (mentioned in 16:103). Notice that the 1st Person Pural “We” in verse 32:23, although, the Prophet was not born during the Ministry of Moses, but since, he received the Message directly from God, and as such, he conveyed the message in the Plural We, to denote that he was not speaking on his own but rather he was speaking on behalf of his BOSS – THE ALMIGHTY GOD! This also occur in the present with regards to the Prophet’s Ministry!


Don’t ever with mere assumption consider that God directly spoke to Musa’s mother without third party behind a veil..…. That only an inspiration.. How God inspire to human is mystery … No one can say that.. Only those who are inspired knows it… Such inspirations are not only for human, probably to all his creatures at the inception… Coz He wants to guide their lives…

I believe you are the one who has been assuming all the while! The Quran is a BOOK OF EXPLANATION NOT A BOOK OF ASSUMPTION! From what you wrote, you assumed the Quran is a Book of Assumption. Then what is the point of God’s explanation on 42:51? The whole verse is redundant and that makes the whole Quran a joke!

10:94 “So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.”
The above verse 10:94 will become piece of joke if you claim that Prophet received the revelation of quran directly and by seeing the God… What kind of prophet he is to doubt after seeing his Lord manifestly and knowing that it was revealed to him by God…  for what reason prophet has to approach those who read the scriptures before him while he has already seen his Creator…That’s super bizarre claim…

It is already a piece of joke with your understanding! I had already explained, there are 2 individuals mentioned in the Quran – 09:40, cross reference with 09:26 and 16:103 – the teacher and the student! The Prophet received the Quran directly from God and it was he who taught his disciple / Messenger assigned to their people!

10:94 – simply says that the Prophet told his disciple/Messenger assigned to Messenger’s people - the Arabs, if he is in doubt, ask the People of the Book who were his contemporaries.

Can you see the logic?

21:25 “And We sent never a Messenger before you except that We revealed(WAHI) to him, saying, 'There is no god but I, so serve Me.”
21:7 “And We sent not before you, [O Muhammad], except men to whom We revealed [WAHI], so ask the people of the message if you do not know.”

In the above verses 21:25 & 21:7 God confirms that all messengers before Mohamed was revealed… word used is WAHI that same word you took to substantiate your claim that Messenger of Quran spoke to God directly without screen… so God can inspire in any mode… How do you take WAHI as direct speech of God with HIS presence and if So, All messengers before Mohamed has spoken to God directly since you used WAHI to be direct Speech of God that also seeing God..

23:27 “So We inspired(WAHI) to him (Prophet Noah), "Construct the ship under Our observation, and Our inspiration(WAHI), and when Our command comes and the oven overflows, put into the ship

21:73 “And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired (WAHI) to THEM the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of US.”

42:51 “And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, BY HIS PERMISSION, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.”  ~~~~ you already used this verse to support your claim but, Prophet Messenger of Quran is also a HUMAN like us… So to see God and TALK is impossible according the very glaring manifest verse…

20:48 “Indeed, it has been revealed(WAHI) to US(Musa + Harun) that the punishment will be upon whoever denies and turns away.”
If God denied to show Himself to Musa while talking to him, but the Earth couldn’t  bear it… Mountains powdered… How then God descended to Earth and came close to Mohamed .. is that what you claim by 53:1-20… that’s simply offline… God claimed in those verses that Prophet saw one of His signs and not God Himself..

You confused yourself…. Three Modes
A – Wahi…. Check all WAHI verses for better picture..
B – Behind a Screen
C – Sending an Angel Messenger…

Just carefully read quran and you will find the answer… B & C is very clear and totally different to ‘A’..
B = God’s real voice is audible to the listener but not possible to see The One who communicates with the listener …
C = Message is from God and God RELAYS His message thru His Angel Messenger to be delivered to Human who was chosen as human Messenger to deliver to People… …For this type of talk only God has used an extra phrase ‘BY HIS PERMISSION’… So other two mediums are direct from God…
A = inspiration / revelation (direct but not audible)… this is also a way of talking to human… Since already the category ‘B’ God’s audible voice is highlighted, then this ‘A’ or rather WAHI also cannot be in that group ‘B’.. otherwise God doesn’t need to segregate to THREE… … see the verse 99:05 “for that her Lord has inspired HER (Earth)” .. Here God doesn’t come to earth and show Himself and talk to the EARTH… but direct inspiration.. Earth knows that the Creator of IT inspired to do what it Does.. 19:11 “So he came out to his people from the prayer chamber and signaled (WAHI) to them to exalt [Allah] in the morning and afternoon.” ……. Very clear that God used WAHI here while Zackariya did not opted to speak to his people but still talked to them without speaking audible voice…that’s kind of real inspiration/revelation… but how God does, we have no idea.. look at this verse 6:112 “And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring (WAHI) to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.”

God has THREE ways of COMMUNICATING, it is not at all necessary to show HIMSELF.. that’s beyond truth as per Quran.. No evidence… all are mediums of mere communication and not visual… Quran or any of his previous scriptures would have been revealed in any of the three mediums (by one medium or two or three that God knows)… We can’t confirm that by only ONE medium it was revealed....But if you take the verses of SEND DOWN then the weight is for option  ‘C’… but I am not convinced …remember I don't say you are completely wrong in your study...further studies may make things manifest to us....

Praise be to God I am not confuse, it is you who is. Erase the knowledge of sectarians from your head. I agree with you on B & C in which I have already explained earlier in my post! If what you said on Category A is correct that means Category A is redundant. There is no reason to put up Category A. B & C is enough!

Revelation Category A – WAHI
means divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something relating to human existence or the world.
And it is not for any human being that ALLAH should SPEAK to him except by revelation (WAHI) or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.
If it is what you said not audible, that means the word SPEAK should not be there! The root word for SPEAK in Arabic – Kaf Lam Mim meaning – speak to, talk to or with someone, to utter, express, to say,.

God spoke to the Prophet directly in a form of revelation and it was audible. However, the nuance of the speech is beyond our knowledge! Only the Prophet knew!

Category A can also be supported by the Biblical verse Deuteronomy 18:18.

18 I will raise up to them a Prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him.

The above verse is one of those verses in the Book of Moses that is being protected by God Almighty!
ALLAH says to Moses that HE will raise a Prophet from among their brethrens – the majority that is the Ishmaelite 11 Tribal Nations who were Brethrens to the 1 and only Elite Prophetic descendents of Prophet Isaac! They were the Leaders as mentioned in Quran

21:73 “And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired (WAHI) to THEM the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of US.”

From the Elite descendents of Prophet Isaac came the Quranic Seal of the Prophets and ALLAH put words in the Prophet’s mouth! This was HIS promise which already been fulfilled!

Revelation Category B
the word HIJAB, root word Ha Jim Ba – meaning
1. a thing that veils, conceals, hide, cover or protect because it prevents seeing or beholding.
2. a Thing or Body between two things or bodies or realms

So base on what you have written and that is God’s real voice is audible to the listener but not possible to see The One who communicates with the listener. In this case, Prophet Moses and his mother who received the WAHI and it falls in this category. Prophet Moses saw a light and spoke to God and in a different realm in which case, God told Moses that he was on holy ground! God also spoke to Moses mother and plausible at a different realm! This also includes the Earth or whoever God inspires including Prophet Nuh and the other Prophets and Messengers who received the WAHI in this category!

Revelation Category C
God spoke to a person thru his Angel Messengers. In this case, Prophet Zakariya and Maryam mother of Esa falls in this category. Both were told not to speak after receiving the inspiration! Prophet Abraham - (NOT YUSUF – my mistake) and Prophet Lut, falls in this category, However, no information that they cannot speak! The recipient of this Quran – the Messenger in which Jibril downloaded Quran in a software format into his heart and also the abrogated Book of Moses in which Mikaal sent it down to him in a hardware format, no information that he cannot speak!

Conclusion
Whether you are convince or not believe or not, its not up to me to judge! The Prophet received the Message directly from God, and as such, he conveyed the message in the Plural We/Us, to denote that he was not speaking on his own but rather he was speaking on behalf of his BOSS – THE ALMIGHTY GOD!

Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on November 09, 2019, 02:13:39 AM
2:75 "Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to HEAR the WORDS (K L M) of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

dear brother Husbulla...

K L M doesn't need to be audible sound... It is a communication... Role of any communication is to pass the message what one intend.... God communicates with people... Look above verse... They hear the KLM of Allah.. Did they hear the sound of Allah through the words, words are from Allah... ... But we can't hear the sound of God... But we heard what God communicated through someone else's sound.. 
As you claim KLM must be audible SPEACH as per grammar.. .. No way...
Even zakaria talked to his peaople ...in fact what zakaria wanted to say was passed through signals... People got the message... That's type of KLM...
Even category 'C' when angel messengers speak on behalf of God we don't hear the voice of God but angels... But God communicated KLM.. Message passed..God spoke.
If you insist KLM is direct SPEACH then that's beyond probability....

Further... I am not disputing with what prophet saw... He's not alive to dispute with him... You only dispute as if Prophet told you what he saw.  We only have quran... KLM of God and not KLM of prophet... 
But you are disputing with God what HE has written in Quran...
What prophet saw is confirmed by God by below verse .. .

53:18 "He certainly saw from the greatest signs of his Lord."

What prophet saw isn't the God... But one of God's signs... .. Unfortunately God's sign cannot become God Himself.. But you claim neglecting the glaring verse Prophet saw God.. That's real sectarian's  claim ....
You better use logic
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Hizbullah on November 09, 2019, 05:26:43 AM
2:75 "Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to HEAR the WORDS (K L M) of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

dear brother Husbulla...

K L M doesn't need to be audible sound... It is a communication... Role of any communication is to pass the message what one intend.... God communicates with people... Look above verse... They hear the KLM of Allah.. Did they hear the sound of Allah through the words, words are from Allah... ... But we can't hear the sound of God... But we heard what God communicated through someone else's sound.. 
As you claim KLM must be audible SPEACH as per grammar.. .. No way...
Even zakaria talked to his peaople ...in fact what zakaria wanted to say was passed through signals... People got the message... That's type of KLM...
Even category 'C' when angel messengers speak on behalf of God we don't hear the voice of God but angels... But God communicated KLM.. Message passed..God spoke.
If you insist KLM is direct SPEACH then that's beyond probability....

Further... I am not disputing with what prophet saw... He's not alive to dispute with him... You only dispute as if Prophet told you what he saw.  We only have quran... KLM of God and not KLM of prophet... 
But you are disputing with God what HE has written in Quran...
What prophet saw is confirmed by God by below verse .. .

53:18 "He certainly saw from the greatest signs of his Lord."

What prophet saw isn't the God... But one of God's signs... .. Unfortunately God's sign cannot become God Himself.. But you claim neglecting the glaring verse Prophet saw God.. That's real sectarian's  claim ....
You better use logic

Where did i dispute please show me.

Sectarian believe is what you believe! they do not believe the Quran but man made dogma!

Surely the Prophet is not alive but his words is. His words is the words of God HIMSELF, in which you deliberately ignore - 53:12!


Quran 53:12 - So will you dispute with him over what he saw? - You have outright dispute and ignore this verse

Quran 53:13 - And certainly he saw HIM in another descent - 2nd time the Prophet saw HIM (GOD)!

Quran 69:40 "This is the speech ( qawl / قَوْل ) of a Honorable Messenger."

Quran 69:43 - “Sent down from the Lord of the two Realms.”


The Greatest signs of his Lord that the Prophet saw was the LORD HIMSELF, NOTHING IS AS GREAT AS THE LORD HIMSELF!

It is not about logic, it is about believe!

12:106 - And most of them believe not in ALLAH except while they associate others with Him

Peace

Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on November 09, 2019, 07:58:21 AM
'
Where did i dispute please show me.

Let me show you since you ask with please... . Coz you claim that prophet saw God  physically for which there is no evidence within Quran... You twist the verses to substantiate your claim while your weaknesses are exposed within Quran while doing it... Prophet did see someone that God explains to confirm it... Since prophet has told what he saw to his people for which they argued... But God confirms what he saw was true..  Prophet and his people knew what actually prophet told them... There is no proof within Quran that prophet saw was God.... 53:18 is more than enough verdict... But you blinded in clear Arabic... Hopefully it is your language..

Sectarian believe is what you believe! they do not believe the Quran but man made dogma!

I don't need your certificate for that.. .. God knows what I believe and what my belief is... He will judge on the day of ressurection... You can be witness... Just have a look my profile picture.. That's me..so verify on that day..
Further...  I only brought quran to claim whatever I claimed... You have no right to say what you say. .had you said I have got the verses wrong then that is a different story...  Claiming secretarian is just your whim... You are simply exposed..


Surely the Prophet is not alive but his words is. His words is the words of God HIMSELF, in which you deliberately ignore - 53:12!

Who taught you that words of prophet are words of God... That's typical secretarianism...same as they claim prophet whent on a night journey and saw God..  You look identical to it by claiming whst You claim...
Words of Messenger is words of God... That's fine... They, the people of Prophet even disputed with him coz they knew that what he saw was his words not God's... Had it been from messenger as Quran probably they would not have disputed. .bur God confirmed through messenger not as prophet what he saw....


Quran 53:12 - So will you dispute with him over what he saw? - You have outright dispute and ignore this verse

I'm not part of it... I am still alive and those who disputed most probably passed away...
I don't ignore one verse and accept another... That's not me... I know the end result for those who do so..

Quran 53:13 - And certainly he saw HIM in another descent - 2nd time the Prophet saw HIM (GOD)!

By making  HIM in block letters it won't become God... That's your mere fantasy thought...

Quran 69:40 "This is the speech ( qawl / قَوْل ) of a Honorable Messenger."

Yes... Messenger honorable... Any doubt?

Quran 69:43 - “Sent down from the Lord of the two Realms.”

Of course...

The Greatest signs of his Lord that the Prophet saw was the LORD HIMSELF, NOTHING IS AS GREAT AS THE LORD HIMSELF!

There you dispute like a nonsensical person while having knowledge... How would you reject the clear manifest Arabic in this  verse.... How could you claim by this verse that it is Allah he saw... That's super prejudiced and ignoring God's verse wittingly. .. If this verse gives meaning as such then quran needs to be rewritten... Don't make quran look fool....
53:18 "He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord."
If the prophet in case saw God then this verse need to be reconstructed. .
"He certainly saw the greatest " or simply "He saw his Lord"
No way this verse can include SIGNS in plural . HIS LORD.... FROM./OF THE GREATEST ..
Thus it clarifies what he saw is other than his Lord...

It is not about logic, it is about believe!

Belief without logic is blindness...

12:106 - And most of them believe not in ALLAH except while they associate others with Him....

Don't be one of those... I  will take care of myself...ensure that you are not in that lot...
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: Hizbullah on November 09, 2019, 07:44:05 PM
'
Where did i dispute please show me.

Let me show you since you ask with please... . Coz you claim that prophet saw God  physically for which there is no evidence within Quran... You twist the verses to substantiate your claim while your weaknesses are exposed within Quran while doing it... Prophet did see someone that God explains to confirm it... Since prophet has told what he saw to his people for which they argued... But God confirms what he saw was true..  Prophet and his people knew what actually prophet told them... There is no proof within Quran that prophet saw was God.... 53:18 is more than enough verdict... But you blinded in clear Arabic... Hopefully it is your language..

You deliberately ignore verses from the Quran 53:10 to 13. You cherry pick one verse just to substantiate your agenda. That shows clearly you have no knowledge of the Quran. I found many mistake in your understanding of the Quran!

Sectarian believe is what you believe! they do not believe the Quran but man made dogma!

I don't need your certificate for that.. .. God knows what I believe and what my belief is... He will judge on the day of ressurection... You can be witness... Just have a look my profile picture.. That's me..so verify on that day..
Further...  I only brought quran to claim whatever I claimed... You have no right to say what you say. .had you said I have got the verses wrong then that is a different story...  Claiming secretarian is just your whim... You are simply exposed..

Actually i have already exposed you!

Surely the Prophet is not alive but his words is. His words is the words of God HIMSELF, in which you deliberately ignore - 53:12!

Who taught you that words of prophet are words of God... That's typical secretarianism...same as they claim prophet whent on a night journey and saw God..  You look identical to it by claiming whst You claim...
Words of Messenger is words of God... That's fine... They, the people of Prophet even disputed with him coz they knew that what he saw was his words not God's... Had it been from messenger as Quran probably they would not have disputed. .bur God confirmed through messenger not as prophet what he saw....

Who taught me? In case you have not read or ignorant of what i wrote and quoted from the Quran - 69:40 - 43

indeed, the Qur'an is the word/saying of a Noble Messenger.

And it is not the word of a poet; LITTLE DO YOU BELIEVE.

Nor the word of a soothsayer; LITTLE DO YOU REMEMBER.

sent down from the Lord of the 2 Realms


But alas, what are these verses to you? I am sure it meant nothing to you! Right?

Quran 53:12 - So will you dispute with him over what he saw? - You have outright dispute and ignore this verse

I'm not part of it... I am still alive and those who disputed most probably passed away...
I don't ignore one verse and accept another... That's not me... I know the end result for those who do so..

You deliberately ignore the verses i have shown, you cherry pick one verse and come to your conclusion. That is not the way! I dare say you are part of it!

Quran 53:13 - And certainly he saw HIM in another descent - 2nd time the Prophet saw HIM (GOD)!

By making  HIM in block letters it won't become God... That's your mere fantasy thought...

Wow....arrogance and ignorance bring you no where!

Quran 69:40 "This is the speech ( qawl / قَوْل ) of a Honorable Messenger."

Yes... Messenger honorable... Any doubt?

Read the whole sentence for heaven sake! If u cannot comprehend get someone to educate you!

Quran 69:43 - “Sent down from the Lord of the two Realms.”

Of course...

05:41 - O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not........

The Greatest signs of his Lord that the Prophet saw was the LORD HIMSELF, NOTHING IS AS GREAT AS THE LORD HIMSELF!

There you dispute like a nonsensical person while having knowledge... How would you reject the clear manifest Arabic in this  verse.... How could you claim by this verse that it is Allah he saw... That's super prejudiced and ignoring God's verse wittingly. .. If this verse gives meaning as such then quran needs to be rewritten... Don't make quran look fool....
53:18 "He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord."
If the prophet in case saw God then this verse need to be reconstructed. .
"He certainly saw the greatest " or simply "He saw his Lord"
No way this verse can include SIGNS in plural . HIS LORD.... FROM./OF THE GREATEST ..
Thus it clarifies what he saw is other than his Lord...

with your knowledge you have already make a fool out of the Quran! There are many signs of ALLAH, Seeing ALLAH in HIS physical form is  the greatest! This show clearly you read but do not understand the Quran. Further you have no knowledge of Classical Arabic. The groupings, context and some of the words used are vastly different. There are some minor differences in grammar and punctuation of words between  Quranic and modern standard versions of Arabic. These examples already show how weak your understanding within the Quran!

It is not about logic, it is about believe!

Belief without logic is blindness...

12:106 - And most of them believe not in ALLAH except while they associate others with Him....

Don't be one of those... I  will take care of myself...ensure that you are not in that lot...

See yourself in the mirror and reflex - you used logic but you do not believe! i am advising myself and at the same time you! You brought up this interesting thread but it becomes dull with your ignorant and arrogant approach.

Anyways, good luck and  :handshake:
Title: Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
Post by: jkhan on November 09, 2019, 10:03:10 PM
Dear Husbulla...

To date what I perceive is within me... Unfortunately I don't see within my limited knowledge that prophet saw Allah... If one day if God let me know crystal clearly through any of His Quran verses that prophet saw Allah then I will let you know isha Allah publicly saying that I was wrong on that day and you are right... Till then let me study Quran for my salvation... Okay dude.. No grudges... Keep cool... Guidance cannot be of wrong choice of verses...
If I am wrong at least few members would prove within Quran..
I never underestimate your knowledge.... Only hearty wish is let God guide us with what is right... Let the wrong path fade off
 :handshake: