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Science / History / Prophecy => Archeology & History => Topic started by: Someone12 on October 05, 2019, 05:41:50 PM

Title: People of the cave money
Post by: Someone12 on October 05, 2019, 05:41:50 PM
Did anyone notice that in verses

وَكَذَٰلِكَ بَعَثْنَاهُمْ لِيَتَسَاءَلُوا بَيْنَهُمْ ۚ قَالَ قَائِلٌ مِّنْهُمْ كَمْ لَبِثْتُمْ ۖ قَالُوا لَبِثْنَا يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ ۚ قَالُوا رَبُّكُمْ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثْتُمْ فَابْعَثُوا أَحَدَكُم بِوَرِقِكُمْ هَٰذِهِ إِلَى الْمَدِينَةِ فَلْيَنظُرْ أَيُّهَا أَزْكَىٰ طَعَامًا فَلْيَأْتِكُم بِرِزْقٍ مِّنْهُ وَلْيَتَلَطَّفْ وَلَا يُشْعِرَنَّ بِكُمْ أَحَدًا - 18:19
The underlined word is translated as silver And similarly, We awakened them that they might question one another. Said a speaker from among them, "How long have you remained [here]?" They said, "We have remained a day or part of a day." They said, "Your Lord is most knowing of how long you remained. So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the city and let him look to which is the best of food and bring you provision from it and let him be cautious. And let no one be aware of you.

While in Arabic it actually means your paper, does this mean that people used paper notes before even the Quran or was the word for silver in Arabic changed
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Wakas on October 07, 2019, 02:31:38 AM
How did you deduce "wariq" means paper?

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wrq#(18:19:23)

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Ra-Qaf = to put forth leaves. waraqun is both sing. and pl. and is substantive noun from the verb waraqa. auraaq al-rajulu - the man became rich. warqun - leaves, foliage, sheet of paper, sheet of metal, coinage, wealth, prime and freshness of a thing, young lads of a community, beauty of a thing.

waraq n.m. (f. s. waraqah) 6:59, 7:22, 20:121

wariq n.m. 18:19

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages: 305, 306  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wrq
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Someone12 on October 07, 2019, 04:37:41 AM
Well Arabic is my 3rd language and we always use waraq for paper
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Someone12 on October 07, 2019, 04:41:28 AM
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wrq#(18:19:23 how come all the other three occurrence of waraq mean leaves but the one in kahaf suddenly means silver coin
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: good logic on October 07, 2019, 05:00:40 AM
Peace All.
For sure "Waraq" does not mean silver coin. But it can mean paper/other parchment money or  just money.
I do not see the issue  in the verse.
The exact dates and origins of paper money aren't known but its use can be documented as far back as 1400 years ago in China.
Money was first printed in 1690 in the United States of America.

That does  not mean there was no paper money during the era of the story?
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Someone12 on October 07, 2019, 06:01:46 AM
Just goes to show how verses are being changed when translated to English, we use t9 think the Chinese were the first to use paper money but this verse changes everything except if waraq actually meant silver but then the meaning changed with time to paper
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: huruf on October 07, 2019, 01:19:15 PM
It may be paper of some kind or other (e.g. papirus or other type) and it merely means they used it as barter for food. Money is not the only use to which paper can be applied.

Salaam
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: jkhan on October 07, 2019, 11:09:49 PM
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wrq#(18:19:23 how come all the other three occurrence of waraq mean leaves but the one in kahaf suddenly means silver coin

Peace Everyone….

Interesting point… May be (Someone12’s) concern is reasonable….Why all leaves  in other instances and why not here… but in quran most often meaning of a word go to a pattern .. Unless the meaning of same words suits entirely contrary to common meaning… But I suggest considering this…

18:09 “Or have you thought that the companions of the cave and the INSCRIPTION were, among Our signs, a wonder?

To be honest, we cannot deduce when and where in fact this true incident took place (that needs another nail biting research to discover paper money scenario…. But at least we can deduce that this was before the time of Quran’s revelation…

As our Sister Huruf pointed out Barter was very common in the ancient time.. until the advent of coin and paper money… probably still around… (lanka exchange Tea to Oil with Iran..lol.. lol)

Why can’t we assume that they had something reasonably valuable INSCRIPTION/s (could be even drawings , etc etc.. not an issue something on a paper or leaves) which they wanted to exchange for food which in the end exposed themselves of being in sleep for 300 + years…
For me also it sounds bit bizarre to translate it as silver coin but i don't say NO…. Need research..

oops.. missed out one point.. just note the four instances of waraq .. one being feminine... while inscription being opposite and ...
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 09, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
How did you deduce "wariq" means paper?

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wrq#(18:19:23)

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Ra-Qaf = to put forth leaves. waraqun is both sing. and pl. and is substantive noun from the verb waraqa. auraaq al-rajulu - the man became rich. warqun - leaves, foliage, sheet of paper, sheet of metal, coinage, wealth, prime and freshness of a thing, young lads of a community, beauty of a thing.

waraq n.m. (f. s. waraqah) 6:59, 7:22, 20:121

wariq n.m. 18:19

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages: 305, 306  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wrq

peace, correct -- see pronunciation (same root); type each use speaker https://translate.google.com

وَرَقِ waraqi/leaf (fathah - small line above letter represents short "a" sound)

وَرِقِ wariqi/silver (kasrah - small line below letter designates short "i" sound)

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

ورق

وَرِقٌ Silver, whether coined or not: (AO, TA:) or coined dirhems; (S, K;) coined silver. (Mgh.) See عَيْنٌ. أَوْرَاق , pl. of وَرَقٌ, meaning أَحْدَاث: see قَعْبٌ. وُرْقَةٌ Ash-colour. (Msb.) See سُمْرَةٌ. وَرِقَةٌ and وَرِيقَةٌ: see وَارِقٌ. شَجَرٌ وَارِقٌ Trees having leaves: (Msb:) [or leafy trees; trees having many leaves; for] شَجَرَةٌ وَارِقَةٌ (TA) and ↓ وَرِقَةٌ and ↓ وَرِيقَةٌ (S, K, TA) signify a tree having many leaves. (S, K, TA.) And شَجَرَةٌ وَارِقَةُ الظِّلَالِ [A tree having leafy coverings or shades].

Oldest manuscripts some diacritics unnecessary use context, cross-reference, etc.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/19?handschrift=281

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyrDqcDY/ch18v17-23.jpg)

Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Someone12 on October 09, 2019, 05:54:24 PM
Peace noon

If you read the Quran you will know that many words are pronounced differently so that the Quran will be able to use the words without spoiling the rhythm/flow

wariq still means paper/leaves, apart from Quran translations of this verse everywhere you see wariq/waraq.

Silver in Arabic is فضة fidah

Like in وَيُطَافُ عَلَيْهِم بِآنِيَةٍ مِّن /فِضَّةٍ/ وَأَكْوَابٍ كَانَتْ قَوَارِيرَا - 76:15

And there will be circulated among them vessels of /silver/and cups having been [created] clear [as glass],

وَلَوْلَا أَن يَكُونَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً لَّجَعَلْنَا لِمَن يَكْفُرُ بِالرَّحْمَٰنِ لِبُيُوتِهِمْ سُقُفًا مِّن /فِضَّةٍ/ وَمَعَارِجَ عَلَيْهَا يَظْهَرُونَ - 43:33

And if it were not that the people would become one community [of disbelievers], We would have made for those who disbelieve in the Most Merciful - for their houses - ceilings and stairways of /silver/ upon which to mount


A word can't mean suddenly transforms to another word that means something else just once.
Title: Re: People of the cave money
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 10, 2019, 02:38:45 AM
wariq still means paper/leaves, apart from Quran translations of this verse everywhere you see wariq/waraq.

Silver in Arabic is فضة fidah

peace someone, for usage do search ورق  hadith https://sunnah.com/

 ~12 of 152 with fathah waraqi/leaves, ~140 with kasrah wariqi/silver

likewise, ورق and فضه used interchangeably https://sunnah.com/urn/413500

وَحَدَّثَنِي عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ سَعِيدَ بْنَ الْمُسَيَّبِ، يَقُولُ قَطْعُ الذَّهَبِ وَالْوَرِقِ مِنَ الْفَسَادِ فِي الأَرْضِ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ وَلاَ بَأْسَ أَنْ يَشْتَرِيَ الرَّجُلُ الذَّهَبَ بِالْفِضَّةِ وَالْفِضَّةَ بِالذَّهَبِ جِزَافًا إِذَا كَانَ تِبْرًا أَوْ حَلْيًا قَدْ صِيغَ فَأَمَّا الدَّرَاهِمُ الْمَعْدُودَةُ وَالدَّنَانِيرُ الْمَعْدُودَةُ فَلاَ يَنْبَغِي لأَحَدٍ أَنْ يَشْتَرِيَ ذَلِكَ جِزَافًا حَتَّى يُعْلَمَ وَيُعَدَّ فَإِنِ اشْتُرِيَ ذَلِكَ جِزَافًا فَإِنَّمَا يُرَادُ بِهِ الْغَرَرُ حِينَ يُتْرَكُ عَدُّهُ وَيُشْتَرَى جِزَافًا وَلَيْسَ هَذَا مِنْ بُيُوعِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ فَأَمَّا مَا كَانَ يُوزَنُ مِنَ التِّبْرِ وَالْحَلْىِ فَلاَ بَأْسَ أَنْ يُبَاعَ ذَلِكَ جِزَافًا وَإِنَّمَا ابْتِيَاعُ ذَلِكَ جِزَافًا كَهَيْئَةِ الْحِنْطَةِ وَالتَّمْرِ وَنَحْوِهِمَا مِنَ الأَطْعِمَةِ الَّتِي تُبَاعُ جِزَافًا وَمِثْلُهَا يُكَالُ فَلَيْسَ بِابْتِيَاعِ ذَلِكَ جِزَافًا بَأْسٌ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ مَنِ اشْتَرَى مُصْحَفًا أَوْ سَيْفًا أَوْ خَاتَمًا وَفِي شَىْءٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ ذَهَبٌ أَوْ فِضَّةٌ بِدَنَانِيرَ أَوْ دَرَاهِمَ فَإِنَّ مَا اشْتُرِيَ مِنْ ذَلِكَ وَفِيهِ الذَّهَبُ بِدَنَانِيرَ فَإِنَّهُ يُنْظَرُ إِلَى قِيمَتِهِ فَإِنْ كَانَتْ قِيمَةُ ذَلِكَ الثُّلُثَيْنِ وَقِيمَةُ مَا فِيهِ مِنَ الذَّهَبِ الثُّلُثَ فَذَلِكَ جَائِزٌ لاَ بَأْسَ بِهِ إِذَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ يَدًا بِيَدٍ وَلاَ يَكُونُ فِيهِ تَأْخِيرٌ وَمَا اشْتُرِيَ مِنْ ذَلِكَ بِالْوَرِقِ مِمَّا فِيهِ الْوَرِقُ نُظِرَ إِلَى قِيمَتِهِ فَإِنْ كَانَ قِيمَةُ ذَلِكَ الثُّلُثَيْنِ وَقِيمَةُ مَا فِيهِ مِنَ الْوَرِقِ الثُّلُثَ فَذَلِكَ جَائِزٌ لاَ بَأْسَ بِهِ إِذَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ يَدًا بِيَدٍ وَلَمْ يَزَلْ ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَمْرِ النَّاسِ عِنْدَنَا ‏.‏