Free Minds

Critical Examination of Islam => Quranic Divinity => Topic started by: Someone12 on October 05, 2019, 07:17:08 AM

Title: Authorship of the quran
Post by: Someone12 on October 05, 2019, 07:17:08 AM
So yesterday I just read sure lahab and something has been disturbing me ever since, the surah feels as if it was written by a very angry person looking for a way to curse someone with more power than him, it does not feel like anything Allah would be saying which made me to start questioning how do we know that the Quran is really from Allah, why is it that there are verse that seem to be self serving to the prophet like verse 33:53 and 49:2, so I would like to know what specific verse or surah in the Quran has conceived you that the Quran is really for God not the prophet a verse that you believe it is impossible to be said by a human of that time.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 05, 2019, 09:25:35 AM
Peace Someone12.
Who authored Qoran?
I will provide my take on who came up with the contents of the Arabic  Qoran - As writing something and coming up with its contents/author... can be different).
Only an Arabic speaking entity could have authored and wrote Qoran or like the book claims Allah authored it. With that in mind, we're left with three choices:
     1  -  the Arabs wrote it (One or a group)
     2  -  Mohammad authored and wrote it or dictated it for a scribe to write it.
     3  -  Allah authored it -(If the other two choices above can be eliminated from authorship then the book mentions the author clearly)
 
1,2 and 3 need to be researched and analysed along with the contents of the book to see the possibilities and their certainty or probabilities.

Briefly I give my findings on each:

1-No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have authored/ written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Qoran as being the 'author'. This is  one of very few books in the world without a human author. No one in the world has ever been accused of authoring and writing the Holy Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad , by non-muslims.

2- If one is a honest truth seeker , then the contents are a powerful evidence that it is impossible for the prophet to choose the direction and way of life he led and stay consistent with the theme of Qoran to consistently give true statements that he could not possibly know and lead a nation with this book and not put even a hint in there that he authored it.
By analysing both the content of Qoran and the history available of Mohammed, it is logical to deduce that he did not and could not come up with the contents of Qoran. All logical evidence leads to "revelation" from other than the ideas of the prophet.
Or may be someone has evidence that Mohammed authored Qoran?

3- A revelation from a knowledgeable and able being beyond a human capability. who?

if others have evidence of a human author of the Qoran, please give your evidence.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: Someone12 on October 05, 2019, 09:38:28 AM
Can you please give examples of the verses you mentioned in 2. Also what do you think about Sarah lahab
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 06, 2019, 12:41:47 AM


3- A revelation from a knowledgeable and able being beyond a human capability. who?



let say for the sake of argument no human was involved in the authorship of QURAN or any religious BOOK..

those books are beyond human capability hence we assume ALIEN beings were behind those books ....

not only books but also some places of ancient times what was beyond human capability let give all that credit to ALIENS instead of God on which some may agree with you..

if we would be fair and neutral why we would assume its from God ? on the basis that no human or jinn can produce this ? why cant it be aliens ?
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 06, 2019, 05:52:24 AM
Peace Imran.
Regarding this, quote:

if we would be fair and neutral why we would assume its from God ? on the basis that no human or jinn can produce this ? why cant it be aliens ?

If Aliens wish to remain anonymous, then we will never know.
In the case of Qoran, Allah/GOD claims authorship, why?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 06, 2019, 06:29:47 AM
Peace Someone12.

Qoran consistently states that the Prophet's sole mission was to deliver Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran (3:20; 5:48-50, 5:92, 5:99; 6:19; 13:40; 16:35, 16:82; 24:54; 29:18; 42:48; 64:12)
 Moreover, the Prophet was enjoined in the strongest words from issuing anything other than the words given to him by the author of the Quran (69:38-47). He was even enjoined from explaining the Quran (75:15-19) .This strongly implies Mohammed was not the author of Qoran. Not logical if Mohammed was the author.
As well as  some futuristic information contained in Qoran that could not have been possibly known or even guessed by Mohammed.

Abu Lahab surah ,like all sanctions in Qoran is a strong warning against oppression and persecution of innocent people.. I do not see any anger by the author there. I see an allegory and a warning to those who oppress and prosecute innocent folk.
Or are all sanctions and warnings from angry authors?
God bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 06, 2019, 01:23:06 PM


If Aliens wish to remain anonymous, then we will never know.
In the case of Qoran, Allah/GOD claims authorship, why?



thats the same case with all other books and places which are shrouded in mystery.

its the book that claim its from God its like a circular argument again. same like the first religious book holder also claimed its from God.

the whole point is if something is not from human or something is beyond human capability = its CERTAINLY from God/s ?

free thinkers at  this point think bout the reason why things and places usually referred to non-human creatures/beings ?

interestingly the places referred to aliens or non-humans also never claimed its from aliens or from angels moreover in that holy book series by abrahamic line an alien being "jibrael/gabriel" works together with human prophets to bring that scriptures on the face of earth.

evidence is going in the favour of aliens lol .
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: jkhan on October 06, 2019, 09:06:46 PM
So yesterday I just read sure lahab and something has been disturbing me ever since, the surah feels as if it was written by a very angry person looking for a way to curse someone with more power than him, it does not feel like anything Allah would be saying which made me to start questioning how do we know that the Quran is really from Allah, why is it that there are verse that seem to be self serving to the prophet like verse 33:53 and 49:2, so I would like to know what specific verse or surah in the Quran has conceived you that the Quran is really for God not the prophet a verse that you believe it is impossible to be said by a human of that time.

Authorship of any matter is very central and decisive? Nowadays to trace an Author of a book is incredibly uncomplicated and much reliable… But to ensure about the author of an ancient book is very involved and need to apply much endeavor to trace…we may end up with twisted conclusion at times…

But who is the Author of Quran?.....or who is the Author of those scriptures which Quran specify? There is see-through variance when it comes to trace the author of a book which is claimed by God while no human claims to be author of it… If no human stand for the claim of the authorship of a book then we as human have to trace profoundly to its authenticity…for example does the book deserve in its own beyond human capability?

So, best practice to verify is to read the book in its absolute meaning… If you find it peculiar to what human authored book then there is a reason to bring the God into picture to assign its author..
But the foremost tactic I found out to trace the author of these so called scripture/s of ancient by cracking the authorship of the Earth and Heavens…

Are they evolved or are they created? If we as human, after methodical research is able to convince ourselves with one of the two, then we are in a position to give the authorship to Quran either to God or Human…

~~~Have concerns with reality ~~~~
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 06, 2019, 11:38:09 PM

 how do we know that the Quran is really from Allah,



BY reading the very first verse of Quran you can easily come to reality about the words of GOD vs words of MEN.

STARTED with MY name ALLAH.. OR STARTED with THE name of ALLAH..

Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: Wakas on October 07, 2019, 02:32:30 AM
Quran and probability:
http://www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf

Past threads on the chapter in question:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10365.msg52392#msg52392
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 07, 2019, 05:11:46 AM
Peace Imran.
I disagree here, quote:

evidence is going in the favour of aliens lol

 In my opinion,evidence is clearly in favour of the creator.  The  absolute and unique Alien. Allah / GOD the creator of everything.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 08, 2019, 12:47:55 AM


 In my opinion,evidence is clearly in favour of the creator.



its not evidence its called the option you select for completing a puzzle in YOUR opinion..

if something BOOK/PLACE is not from human then from who ?

1 CREATOR ( creating force of everything )
2 GOD ( different nations have different God/s)
3 ALIENs ( of this universe or another universe from multiverse theory).
4 NO IDEA ( humans are struggling finding out how pyramids or any xyz structure or book came in to earth beyond human capabilities)
5 HUMAN & JINNS ( exempted).

if we get votes of whole population on those five options you will see how many people have differ opinion than me and you..

you selected between option 1 OR 2 .. respectively.
I selected option 3 & 4. lol respectively.

we both have no evidence but options.. :group:

some more options in PARTNERSHIP mode..

1 co work of human & aliens..
2 co work of human & aliens & angels
3 co work of human & aliens & angels & God/s
4 co work of human & aliens & angels & God/s & creator ..

in this section we both can select option 4.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: huruf on October 08, 2019, 06:51:24 AM
So yesterday I just read sure lahab and something has been disturbing me ever since, the surah feels as if it was written by a very angry person looking for a way to curse someone with more power than him, it does not feel like anything Allah would be saying which made me to start questioning how do we know that the Quran is really from Allah, why is it that there are verse that seem to be self serving to the prophet like verse 33:53 and 49:2, so I would like to know what specific verse or surah in the Quran has conceived you that the Quran is really for God not the prophet a verse that you believe it is impossible to be said by a human of that time.

I fail to see what is wrong with those ayas you mention. In the one about abu lahab I do not see anybody angry but God stating squarely wha awaits any angry and vicious person who acts deliberately in an evil way. What would you expect?

As to the othe two ayas, it is plain God is speaking about good socila maners. Obviously if you are a well manered person who has not had to deal with grob behaviour and ill and unconsiderat emanners you may think yhat God should not go into tha. Why not? those people tho are being corrected, should benefit from it, wouldn't they?

Also bearing in mind that a prophets (an his close coworkers) day, same as anybody's day has only 2 hours, and a lot of demands on him (them) it is only reasonable that his time should be valued and not spent on petty shallow matters.

Salaam.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 08, 2019, 08:31:56 AM
Peace Imran.
You may not have your evidence and my evidence may not be your evidence. Nevertheless my evidence has a probability of approx1 from the ONE.. .
I am certain, according to my study of the Qoran , its contents and numerical composition, that it can only be authored by the Lord of the universe

And like the book also states, many will require GOD or the Angels( you know the Aliens) to present themselves with the evidence before they believe the author.
So ,it is normal for this disagreement to continue until GOD and the Angels  show themselves.
And that is fine by me that you hold your view of the Qoran s authorship.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 08, 2019, 08:54:27 PM

I am certain, according to my study of the Qoran , its contents and numerical composition, that it can only be authored by the Lord of the universe


actually i just represented my view of aliens for the sake of argument ... before we go off-topic.

if some place/book/structure got magnificent numerical composition/structure does not mean its CAN ONLY AUTHORED/CREATED by Lord..

its our mind/reason let us decide what vote or option we will go for.. and its not the case 100% votes goes to any ONE candidate regarding all those mysterious structures/books/xyz..
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 09, 2019, 08:56:06 AM
What I am saying brother Imran is this:

Once I have got my evidence  about the words  that make up Qoran. The next step for me is obviously to believe every single word that was "locked" as GOD s word. These words tell me that only the Lord of the universe is capable of giving that specific and detailed information about Himself , His creations and His message to us.
Hence I deduce ,according to my evidence, that GOD is the author of Qoran.

Like I said I have no issue with you disagreeing with my take.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: Jafar on October 09, 2019, 08:51:23 PM
So yesterday I just read sure lahab and something has been disturbing me ever since, the surah feels as if it was written by a very angry person looking for a way to curse someone with more power than him, it does not feel like anything Allah would be saying which made me to start questioning how do we know that the Quran is really from Allah, why is it that there are verse that seem to be self serving to the prophet like verse 33:53 and 49:2, so I would like to know what specific verse or surah in the Quran has conceived you that the Quran is really for God not the prophet a verse that you believe it is impossible to be said by a human of that time.

Al Massad / Al-Lahb (111), contain a curse to Mr. Daddy Of Flame and Mrs Daddy Of Flame.
It seems the author was very angry with both of them yet there's no explanation of the context of what Mr and Mrs Daddy Of Flame do which caused the author to be so angry with them.

A dig up to the 'tradition' doesn't reveal any 'sound' reason either, it was said that this Daddy Of Flame was Muhammad's uncle and often mocked and bullied Muhammad.
We met bully and mocker throughout our life, but we don't 'curse' them to be tortured by fire. That's so brutal.

Perhaps this Daddy Of Flame did something really horrible such as:
1. Brutal murder and torture
2. Sacrificing human to the Deities / Gods
3. Sacrificing his own children to the Deities / Gods

Which makes the author to lose his/her patience and utter such curse...
I personally don't know...

So yes, IMHO the book was clearly written by human.
Regarding who was the 'author(s)', I think it's definitely a being, a creature, as it took the perspective of one.
Some say it was the saying of an Angel named Gabriel / Jibreel

"Indeed it's the saying of honorable messenger, possessor of power with the owner of the throne, secure, one to be obeyed and trustworthy"
-- 81:19-21

In other section (53:27) it seems the author is 'not happy' because some human named the Angels with 'female' names.


While regarding "From God", well given all things were created by God then all things were from God. Then all books, all ebooks, all scriptures, all scrolls are "From God".

I understand that the above line of thought will not makes those who idolize the Quran to be happy, as it goes against their objective to maker their idol (a book) to be superior / above all other books. That's why they make the claim that it's the only book authored by God and there will be no more revelation from God after that book was being written. They're trying to impose a belief that the only way one can found God's revelation is through that book which they idolize.

Speaking of book, written by human and claimed to be authored / inspired by Angel(s) as revelation from God.
I found another book(s), written within our era, where the author claimed she was told to wrote those books by Angels. She claimed she can see angels and talk with them on daily basis since she was born.
https://lornabyrne.com/shop/

IMHO A book or other reading material doesn't need to have a claim that it was written by God in order to have 'truth' or something beneficial to our lives inside it. And definitely God's revelation hasn't ended ask any of your question to God and He will answer.

Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 09, 2019, 11:53:08 PM
What I am saying brother Imran is this:

Once I have got my evidence  about the words  that make up Qoran. The next step for me is obviously to believe every single word that was "locked" as GOD s word. These words tell me that only the Lord of the universe is capable of giving that specific and detailed information about Himself , His creations and His message to us.
Hence I deduce ,according to my evidence, that GOD is the author of Qoran.

Like I said I have no issue with you disagreeing with my take.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

hmm so the book is from God because the book contain a mathematical composition according to your evidence. well you are truly have a full right to believe on it.. i also have no issue with your take as you have no issue with my take  :handshake:

BUT your evidence of numerical composition is being rejected by 99.999999 % OF  the people who claimed to follow that book..
second thing your evidence already weaken the claim of the book by removing 2 VERSES. thats its a protected book.

your evidence is not an evidence or not accepted as evidence ever. 0.0000001% of people consider it as evidence based on faulty reasoning ( but instead of going off-topic this time i may give another chance based on this of your evidence for the sake of debate).

lets say i ACCEPT the book got a code or numerical composition how does it prove if a book or any structure got a superhuman numerical structure is from God ? thats the whole point.. is it not possible for any other being to create thing on mathematical composition ?

what you are claiming here is its impossible for human to create a structure like hanging garden in babel ? hence aliens or jinns are responsible ...and also if there are options we may have another option of adding angels and God/s in it..
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 10, 2019, 12:17:36 AM

A dig up to the 'tradition' doesn't reveal any 'sound' reason either, it was said that this Daddy Of Flame was Muhammad's uncle and often mocked and bullied Muhammad.
We met bully and mocker throughout our life, but we don't 'curse' them to be tortured by fire. That's so brutal.


i have another theory  regarding this special hate chapter of mr and mrs cursed ones.

if its a HUMAN adding and was already there before the traditions being created by mythologists/rulers.. there must be a good reason how to gain advantage from chapter of mr and mrs cursed.

ADVANTAGES

1 to prove the divine writing is claiming things in advance about the event also  as per traditions " supposed " uncle knew that verse and if he have to prove the quran wrong he would have accepted the quran to prove his point. hence they have full record of injecting the dates that this chapter is revealed ages before the death of that UNCLE. ( creating a prophecy)

2 put the fear in the mind of followers not to go against the RULERS otherwise they will suffer the same destiny. (strategy of controlling)

NOTE the details of that chapter can only acquired by traditional tales which is highly rejected by hadith rejectors. if they never take help from those traditions, its impossible for them to even know that addressed person was the blood uncle of the prophet.

is it possible the early people add some things by their own in QURAN ?
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 21, 2019, 04:36:49 AM
Peace Imran.

I was reading the thread today. I meant to reply to your last post. Sorry for the delay.
I have two points to make about your quote below:

lets say i ACCEPT the book got a code or numerical composition how does it prove if a book or any structure got a superhuman numerical structure is from God ? thats the whole point.. is it not possible for any other being to create thing on mathematical composition ?

1- The author is describing to you His attributes and how all the creations came about. The author is not unknown if you study the book . The author is the creator of this universe and everything on it..
Since it is not possible for any human or Jinn to author the book ,The super human/Alien...identified Himself in the book.
And since I am certain there is a creator-His signs are all around us and in us-(An absolute one -Not relative/created/other creature.-)
I conclude this creator is the author of Qoran. The difference between us is I am certain.

2- So what if 99.99% of a certain group or religion do not accept my evidence? That is not evidence against my evidence, otherwise their religion and views would be right and you should follow that majority according to the argument.
A majority of any kind does not mean anything .In fact most majorities in all walks of life have been proven to be wrong and follow blindly.

My take on Qoran is clear to me . No doubts or assumptions or some unknown aliens that may not even exist remain in my head about its authorship.
Thank you once more for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: quincy on October 29, 2019, 05:27:23 AM
2:97    Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of God, affirming what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers."

16:102    Say: "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted."

The Qur'an is not the direct word of GOD.

The direct word of GOD is not inscribed on paper or anything else but in our soul.
Title: Re: Authorship of the quran
Post by: good logic on October 29, 2019, 01:27:50 PM
Peace quincy.

The Quran:  Words of your and my Lord-GOD-

18:109
Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."
قُل لَو كانَ البَحرُ مِدادًا لِكَلِمٰتِ رَبّى لَنَفِدَ البَحرُ قَبلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمٰتُ رَبّى وَلَو جِئنا بِمِثلِهِ مَدَدًا

31:27
If all the trees on earth were made into pens, and the ocean supplied the ink, augmented by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Almighty, Most Wise.
وَلَو أَنَّما فِى الأَرضِ مِن شَجَرَةٍ أَقلٰمٌ وَالبَحرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِن بَعدِهِ سَبعَةُ أَبحُرٍ ما نَفِدَت كَلِمٰتُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزيزٌ حَكيمٌ

How direct do you want it?
"The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with the truth"
Clear as "not mud" that Qoran is from your Lord- i.e The words of GOD-
GOD bless you.
Peace.