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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Iyyaka on September 13, 2019, 10:46:44 AM

Title: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on September 13, 2019, 10:46:44 AM
Salam,

18:22 :
1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.
4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
5- Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."
6- So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.

Here i share with you 3 remarks (others signs exist but it is not the subject here - i focus ONLY on THIS AYAT) that lead to think of the number 7 (eight if you include the dog).

(1)
The words of the sentence 1,2 and 4 are the same (I do not speak of conjugation but of words)  except that in sentence 3 it adds a "wa".

   18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."

=> Arabic language proof: in the Arabic language more we say things more that shows that it is strong, of importance (you put the emphasis on it). This version is therefore preferred.

(2)
Sentence 3 is quoted AFTER opinion 1 and 2 but BEFORE option 3 (sentence 4)

 18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   -----------------------------------------------
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."

=> the conjecture therefore concerns opinion 1 and 2 and not opinion 3 (sentence 4). It is a clue that sentence 4 gives the right solution

(3)
Who is Allah addressed to?

18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   -----------------------------------------------
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
   5- Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."

=> Allah first uses the future then the present and then AGAIN present tense after the sentence 3.
Thus we are dealing with 2 groups: majority group that has the opinion 2 but they will change the story with opinion 1 AND the minority group ("Except for a few"). As for what is the identity of this minority group it requires more development.

Peace.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on September 13, 2019, 04:21:31 PM

سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones [parents or government/police officials of the time when the boys initially went missing]

فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should inquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىْءٛ إِ نِّـى فَاعِلٚ ذَٟلِكَ غَدٙا .18:23٢٣

Take note,  you should not henceforth proclaim about a thing, saying: "I am certainly going to do it tomorrow." [18:23]

إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ

Except making it conditional that if Allah the Exalted so wills.

وَٱذْكُر رَّبَّكَ إِذَا نَسِيتَ وَقُلْ عَسَىٰٓ أَن يَـهْدِيَنِ رَبِّـى لِأَقْرَبَ مِنْ هَـٰذَا رَشَدٙا .18:24٢٤

And recall your Sustainer Lord when you forgot to say that, and say, "Perhaps my Sustainer Lord may guide me for a better and nearer course than this. [18:24]
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on September 14, 2019, 11:12:55 PM
You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones [parents or government/police officials of the time when the boys initially went missing]
=> In red : Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT :
(18:22:20) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on September 15, 2019, 07:49:52 AM
=> In red : Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT :
(18:22:20) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun

Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.


سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on September 15, 2019, 12:57:54 PM
You're welcome. Even if we don't share the same comprehension.

I don't understand of what you said by "Second not about number." => is it about what for you ? Can you clarify ?
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on September 15, 2019, 01:38:07 PM
Salam,
رجما بالغیب is interesting.

Peace
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on September 15, 2019, 02:46:26 PM
You're welcome. Even if we don't share the same comprehension.

I don't understand of what you said by "Second not about number." => is it about what for you ? Can you clarify ?


قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger:

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.

Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Novice on October 13, 2019, 11:32:58 AM
Salam,
رجما بالغیب is interesting.

Peace

Yes it is interpreted as making conjectures in this verse but at other places they make it star missiles thrown on devils. Agree it is interesting.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 13, 2019, 01:46:11 PM
Yes it is interpreted as making conjectures in this verse but at other places they make it star missiles thrown on devils. Agree it is interesting.
Salam Novice and Tellmethetruth,

I want to ADD 2 remarks :

 (1) Linguistic :

رَجْمٌ rajm :  basically and originally means to hit with stones (as Ibn Faris pointed out), not for killing BUT to drive away or exile someone or something,  It is also used for accusing or abusing, or to scold and oust => it means to leave someone or break relations with someone.

The form "rajman رَجْمًا" (once in the quran http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rjm#(18:22:9)) (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rjm#(18:22:9))) means "guess work" or "guessing without knowing the truth" int he context of (18:22).
More explanations in dictinnary :
- حَدِیْثٌ مُرَجَّمٌ (hadeethum- murajjam) is a thought which cannot be verified {in "Taj-ul-Uroos"}.
- رَجَّمَ الرَّجُلُ بِالْغَیْبِ (rajjamar rujul bilghaib): that man has said something about the unknown.
- قاَلہَٗ رَجْم ا (qaalahu rajma): he simply made a guess {in Lane}.

=> The common point is the notion of distance/estrangement, in this case, in context of (18:22:9), it means being away from the truth[/u].

 (2) Textual context:

Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 18:9) :
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave

Meditation: While Allah gives the answer to the first counting, why does not he give the answer to the second couting ?

Let's connect these two issues:
(1)
   (18:25)
   And they remained in their cave (for) three hundred years, and add nine.
   (18:26)
   Say: "Allah is fully aware of how long they have remained, to Him is the unseen of the heavens and the earth ..
(2)
   (18:22)
   and they say, "seven and the eighth of them their dog."
   Say: "My Master-Teacher knows their numbers. None knows them except a few


First sign:
In (18:26) the answer is given in the PREVIOUS sentence that make the affirmation of allah's knowledge on the exact number of years.
So reasoning by analogy then in (18:22) the answer is of 7 people.

Second sign:
In (18:25) it is Allah who gives the answer because NO ONE among the familiar ones of the Scripture had the number of 300 + 9 as a good answer. (They woke up about two hundred years later according to the legend of the Seven Sleepers).
On the other hand, in (18:22,) some ("some" / "a few" as a minority) among the inhabitants of the country knew the answer. Indeed according to the Christian legend they were 7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers). This is why Allah gives the answer by their mouths.

This comprehension is reinforced by the use of the word "Allah" in the first case while it is the word "Master-teacher/instructor" which is used in the second case.

NB : This sign also shows us that Christians (hermits ? who lives often in some holes made in the mountains) were in the immediate circle of the quraich tribe. To meditate...

Peace
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 16, 2019, 02:21:48 AM
Salaam,


Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?




-----

An interesting observation about the numbers cited in chapter 18 from verse 9 to 26 concerning " ASHAB ALKAHF" :

- The addition of the cardinal numbers:

3 + 5 + 7 + 300 + 9 = 324

324 = 18 x 18


- The addition of the ordinal digits:

4 + 6 + 8 = 18



source:
http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=157


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 16, 2019, 04:02:52 AM
Salaam,

Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?

Salam ibn_a,

Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.

Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by Christians

Peace
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 17, 2019, 12:17:09 AM
Salam ibn_a,

Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.

Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by Christians

Peace

Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for your explanations.

let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say: 3 or 5.

Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?



Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 17, 2019, 04:20:08 AM
Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for your explanations.

let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say: 3 or 5.

Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?
Salam,

Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying :"Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".

The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 18, 2019, 12:43:06 AM
Salaam,



Salam,

Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying :"Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".

The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?

Peace Iyyaka,

I understand and appreciate your answer.
The question was not specifically intended to you.
Just wanted to know if there is a reason for those "odd numbers", and why those who guessed " jumped " from 3 to 5  avoiding number 4 .




..

Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 18:9) :
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave

....

- Only few translators have translated Al-Raqim الرقيم in relation to numbers, others translate it as : Inscription, Tablet, stone Tablet, etc...

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/9/default.htm


- The translation in relation to numbers seems interesting because in "today Arabic" raqm رقم means number and because of the "high concentration" of numbers concerning "Ashab Alkahf":


3,  4th,  5,  6th,  7,  8th,  300,  9


- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 21, 2019, 03:57:54 AM
Salaam,

Peace Iyyaka,

- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Salam ibn_a,

Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) :http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841 (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841)
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm)

For me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.

Peace
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 21, 2019, 06:21:40 AM
Salam ibn_a,

Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) :http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841 (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841)
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm)

For me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.

Peace

The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ

It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ  in Arabic.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 21, 2019, 10:30:03 AM
The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ

It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ  in Arabic.
Salam Mazhar,

Yes your arguments may be valid about the word "Raqeem" but i don't think they are correct in this passage for 2 mainly reason :

(1) Linguistic argument :

You said "It is a Possessive Phrase" => Yes but let me developped :

the words are in the genitive when they have the following main function:
 - - -The complement of the name
Complements "close" are therefore genitive.

Thus the words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" are two close complements to the name "aṣḥāba / companions", two essential characteristics that, unambiguously for me, allow us to understand that the Qur'an speaks about the story of the "Seven Sleepers". Without the second characteristic "" l-raqīmi / enumeration " nobody could find precisely this story because what makes the peculiarity of this history and its miraculous character is precisely to remain for decades in a cave and not to stay in caves.

To summarize, we have the following equation for any familiar with holy writing (Bible + Quran) :
   - Companions + Cave + Count of years = the story of the Seven Sleepers

(1) Contextual argument :

a.
- If it means "residents of Raqeem" (Raqeemn as a location/place) the following question is raising : Why Allah specify this place ? Does he develops this subject in next ayats ? For me no but perhaps you have an idea.
- In addition the place name raqeem is known to be one of the ancient names of petra. But the story of the "Seven Sleepers" is not in Petra but in Ephesus.

b.
- In the ayats following the ayat 18:9 Allah is developing 2 major themes which are connected closely with the introductory sign (18:9) and the key words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" :
(1) The time of the cave: the reason why they took refuge in the cave (18: 13-16) + the time in the cave (18: 17-18)
and
(2) After cave time and the problem of their number and time to stay in.(18:19 ...)

Peace
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 21, 2019, 11:18:55 AM
There is no such phrase, title 'Seven sleepers'.

A possessive phrase develops a relationship. The word أَصْحَـٟـبَ does not occur as first element with number, This word is the first element for both the following words, since both are in genitive case; and this word is itself definite by construct. Thereby, both are locations. Nothing else can be derived from the phrase.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 21, 2019, 11:45:41 AM
Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...

But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (18:9) which talks about Christian dogma in (18:4...6).
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 21, 2019, 01:11:36 PM
Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...

But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (18:9) which talks about Christian dogma in (18:4...6).

It is telling periods of their history. It shows true believers were present when the majority had gone astray. Then comes the period when majority were true Muslims; the time they were raised from deep sleep. Again majority went astray by the time Qur'an was revealed.

This also reveals the time frame when their elders concocted the story of son.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 21, 2019, 10:52:01 PM
Morphological precision:
the name l-raqīmi derives from the root raqama. Just as for the name ar-raḥîm in (1:1), the scheme/pattern fa'îl on which it is constructed is that of adjectives of the active participle type, that is to say, realizing qualitatively the verbal action.
Hence my translation by "The enumeration/counting" = action of enumerating/count.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 22, 2019, 02:45:32 AM
Salaam,


Peace and thanks to both of you Iyyaka and Mazhar,


An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 18:9

HASIBTA  حسبت   which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...

source:
http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=152
(not agree with all what is said in the book)
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 22, 2019, 03:07:35 AM
Morphological precision:
the name l-raqīmi derives from the root raqama. Just as for the name ar-raḥîm in (1:1), the scheme/pattern fa'îl on which it is constructed is that of adjectives of the active participle type, that is to say, realizing qualitatively the verbal action.
Hence my translation by "The enumeration/counting" = action of enumerating/count.

Where is precision in it:

A phrase for semantic purposes is a whole unit. The first element is also definite signifying certain plural number of persons who have something in common, companions, residents of certain place; like it is used companions/resident of Hell Prison or Paradise.

On face of it this will be ridiculous; "companions of the enumerating/count".
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 22, 2019, 03:23:09 AM
Salaam,


Where is precision in it:

A phrase for semantic purposes is a whole unit. The first element is also definite signifying certain plural number of persons who have something in common, companions, residents of certain place; like it is used companions/resident of Hell Prison or Paradise.

On face of it this will be ridiculous; "companions of the enumerating/count".


Peace Mazhar,

Why not as: "Ashaab alkahf And the enumerating/count/ ....".

And what about the root:   R Q M    ر ق م


Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 22, 2019, 10:08:25 AM
Salam,

@ ibn_a

An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 18:9
HASIBTA  حسبت   which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...
=> Yes good remark. Another sign given by Allah

-----------------------
@ Mazhar :

the Genetive case has the main function of being a complement close to name.
Here is the definition of the word "complement" in the dictionary: "Word or proposition related to another word or proposition, to supplement or clarify its meaning."
It is true that the literal translation is not always easy, so here is a translation with the elements above and in the previous posts:
- The companions of the cave (- who own the characteristic of having lived in a cave), and who have been the subject of a count action,
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 22, 2019, 10:56:59 AM
Salaam,



Peace Mazhar,

Why not as: "Ashaab alkahf And the enumerating/count/ ....".

And what about the root:   R Q M    ر ق م

The sentence is meaning less.

The second noun is in genitive case conjunct with Ashaab.

Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 22, 2019, 11:01:49 AM
Salam,

@ ibn_a
=> Yes good remark. Another sign given by Allah

-----------------------
@ Mazhar :

the Genetive case has the main function of being a complement close to name.
Here is the definition of the word "complement" in the dictionary: "Word or proposition related to another word or proposition, to supplement or clarify its meaning."
It is true that the literal translation is not always easy, so here is a translation with the elements above and in the previous posts:
- The companions of the cave (- who own the characteristic of having lived in a cave), and who have been the subject of a count action,

Meaning less.
Genitive noun is either object of a preposition or second element of possessive phrase. Pl again read what is meant by. compliment.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 22, 2019, 11:52:35 AM
Salaam,



Peace Mazhar,

Why not as: "Ashaab alkahf And the enumerating/count/ ....".

And what about the root:   R Q M    ر ق م

Where did you find its meaning as enumerating/counting?
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 22, 2019, 10:56:53 PM
Salaam,


Peace and thanks to both of you Iyyaka and Mazhar,


An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 18:9

HASIBTA  حسبت   which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...

source:
http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=152
(not agree with all what is said in the book)
Salam ibn_a,

Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view :
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave

So my new translation :
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ?
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 23, 2019, 02:02:07 AM
Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,


My post were about exploring the possibility,  if Al raqim  الرقيم  could be related to numbers.
 
See it more as a question about the root  R Q M    ر ق م  taking into account your knowledge and interesting explanations about the roots in the Quran:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7717.msg426900#msg426900

and since you did not explain the reason (or I missed it) for relating Al raqim to a place,

and if the root  R Q M    ر ق م  allows for the possibility to relate it to numbers?


------

Considering the different opinions about the meaning of Al raqim الرقيم   
what is certain, is the uncertainty, seems more as  رجما بالغيب :


http://arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%8A%D9%85%20%20?cat=50


 الرَّقِيمُ is said to mean A tablet (JK, S, K *) of lead, (K,) whereon were inscribed, (JK, * S,) or engraved, (K,) the names of the People of the Cave [commonly called the Seven Sleepers], (JK, S, K,) and their ancestry, (JK, K,) and their story, (S,) and their religion, and what it was from which they fled: (K:) so says Suh, on the authority of Fr: (TA:)

or a mass of stone; (Suh, JK, K;) [i. e.]

a stone tablet on which were inscribed their names, and which was put upon the entrance of the cave: (Bd:)

or the town,

or village, from which they came forth: (JK, K:)

or their mountain (Zj, K) in which was the cave: (Zj:)

or the valley (AO, JK, K) in which was the cave: (AO, JK:)

or their dog: (El-Hasán, R, K:)

or [in the JK and CK “ and ”] the receptacle for ink: (JK, K, TA:) mentioned by IDrd, but with the expression of uncertainty as to its correctness; (TA;) and said to be of the language of the Greeks: (JK, * TA:)
and the tablet: (K:) thus, also, explained as used in the verse of the Kur-án: (TA:)
but I'Ab is related by 'Ikrimeh to have said, I know not what is الرَّقِيمُ; whether
a book
or writing,
or a building: (S, TA:) it is [said to be] of the measure فَعِيل in the sense of the measure مَفْعُول. (TA.)



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Salam ibn_a,

Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view :
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave

So my new translation :
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ?

Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for sharing your understanding.




Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 23, 2019, 07:38:30 AM
Just read about Petra original name.
Root: ر ق م

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān:

a) Total occurrences: 3

b) No of constructions: 3 Nouns

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

الراء والقاف والميم أصلٌ واحد يدلُّ على خَطٍّ وكتابةٍ وما أشبَهَ ذلك . فالرَّقْم: الخَطّ.

That it leads to the perception of streak, calligraphy, penmanship and writing and that which resembles it;

Lane Lexicon:  And He sealed, stamped, imprinted, or impressed. (S, TA.) And رَقَمَ الِكتَابَ, (K,) inf. n. as above, (JK,) He marked the writing with the dots, or points,

May be the city had beautiful calligraphic patterns which corresponds to the basic concept of Root.

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(556).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(556).htm)
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 23, 2019, 10:56:22 AM
So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses:

1) Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https://www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry)

2) "Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(18:9:6)
+
[18:21] Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection

3) "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https://submission.org/QI#18"
[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 23, 2019, 12:57:33 PM
So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses:

1) Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https://www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry)

2) "Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(18:9:6)
+
[18:21] Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection

3) "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https://submission.org/QI#18"
[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.

It is mere wandering in vacuum. You are time and again placing aside fundamentals of language; the Possessive Phrase.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 24, 2019, 09:03:21 AM

Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".

Quote
أَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ كَانُوا۟۟ مِنْ ءَايَٟتِنَا عَجَبٙا .18:09٩

Or have you deemed the companions of the Cave and residents of Raqeem as if they were a wonder in the displaying signs of Our Majesty —

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm

In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.

Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 24, 2019, 10:15:13 AM
Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".

In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.

I have just translated. When I explain it by syntax, sentence structures there I will mention it.

Information about their residential place/city is also given. Their city dwellers - rulers had gone polytheists.


هَٟٓـؤُلَآءِ قَوْمُنَا ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ ءَالِـهَةٙۖ

Look at these people, our nation; they have purposely adopted others besides Him the Exalted as various iela'aha: godheads —

لَّوْلَا يَأْتُونَ عَلَيْـهِـم بِسُلْطَٟنِۭ بَيِّـنٛۖ

Why not they come forth about the stance upon them with a distinct authoritative argument-evidence? [instead of conjectural myths of forefathers]

فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ ٱفْتَـرَىٰ عَلَـى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبٙا .18:15١٥

Thereby, who could be a greater evil monger-a distorter-creator of imbalances, disorder-over stepping than him who artfully conjectured a falsehood attributing it to Allah the Exalted — [18:15]

وَإِذِ ٱعْتَزَلْتُـمُوهُـمْ وَمَا يَعْبُدُونَ إِلَّا ٱللَّهَ فَأْوُواۥٓ إِلَـى ٱلْـكَهْفِ

And when you people separate from them and what they worship, except Allah the Exalted, then proceed for protective refuge towards the particular cave —

يَنْشُـرْ لَـكُـمْ رَبُّكُـم مِّن رَّحْـمَتِهِۦ وَيُـهَيِّئْ لَـكُـم مِّنْ أَمْرِكُم مِّرْفَقٙا .18:16١٦

Your Sustainer Lord will expand for you from His Mercy, and will facilitate for you in your matter making it convenient." [18:16]

The destined cave they already knew as most suitable place for hiding. Certain location clue are also mentioned with reference to movement of Sun and affect on cave.

This also confirms earlier informative statement about the name of their parental city.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on October 27, 2019, 08:17:13 AM
Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,

I can understand your argument for relating Al raqim  الرقيم  to Petra, because of the resemblance of its original name "Reqem or Raqmu".
Do you consider also other possible meanings for Al raqim  الرقيم ?





قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger:

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.

... مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ...

Shouldn't it be like that:

18:22 ...Only a few know about them...

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on October 27, 2019, 11:03:49 AM
By combining "hypothesis" 2 and 3 :

[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the inscription that enumerate them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Confirm by the textual context as early said.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on October 28, 2019, 01:51:03 PM
By combining "hypothesis" 2 and 3 :

[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the inscription that enumerate them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Confirm by the textual context as early said.

The bold is a separate dependent sentence while there is no such thing in SLT. Case endings/Irab is the heart of Arabic grammar. It is Ashab-arRaqeemi.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on November 13, 2019, 08:51:59 AM

Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,


Why did you go against all translators?
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/default.htm


http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm
(https://i.imgur.com/Lhkk7jo.png)
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on November 25, 2019, 01:43:55 AM

Salaam,




Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.


سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

Peace Mazhar,



Agree that  ما يعلمهم الا قليل  does not refer to  بعدتهم  , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say : يعلمها

but why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل  means:

"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".


Could you explain what other translators missed ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Mazhar on November 28, 2019, 07:22:24 AM
Salaam,




Peace Mazhar,


Agree that  ما يعلمهم الا قليل  does not refer to  بعدتهم  , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say : يعلمها

but why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل  means:

"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".


Could you explain what other translators missed ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Because of the sentence structure negation and then exception. Ma and La structure. Verb is in Indicative Mood; covering present and future timeline. Subject of a verb needs to be specified. Qaleel is just quantification noun.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: ibn_a on December 04, 2019, 01:31:11 AM
Salaam,



Because of the sentence structure negation and then exception. Ma and La structure. Verb is in Indicative Mood; covering present and future timeline. Subject of a verb needs to be specified. Qaleel is just quantification noun.

Peace Mazhar,

Thanks for taking time to answer,
I am familiar with basic Arabic, less with grammar rules.

Do the grammar rules also allow for:
ما يعلمهم الا قليل    to mean: "Not knows them except few",

like others have translated, or are they wrong, and of course both statements cannot be true.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/default.htm


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on January 08, 2020, 03:46:53 PM
Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.


سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]
Yes you're right. I was wrong too. 2 differents sentences.
Title: Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
Post by: Iyyaka on January 11, 2020, 10:22:29 AM
Yes you're right. I was wrong too. 2 differents sentences.
clarification: Yes 2 sentences but the second one includes the problem of the first sentence.

Other verses with classical translation:
Quran, 18:25 :
وَلَبِثُوا فِي كَهْفِهِمْ ثَلَاثَ مِائَةٍ سِنِينَ وَازْدَادُوا تِسْعًا
And they remained in their cave (for) three hundred years and add nine.
Quran, 18:26:
[...]قُلِ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثُوا
Say, "Allah knows best about what they remained.

Question / reflection: What is the reference of these 3 subject pronouns to the end of these verbs?