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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Wakas on August 04, 2019, 04:23:44 PM

Title: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on August 04, 2019, 04:23:44 PM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
New article - click HERE (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html)

Feedback welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 04, 2019, 11:29:04 PM
Salam Wakas,

You will find a study here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30)

Some points :
(1) The main and original meaning of the word "TaLLa" (root: Ta-Lam-Lam) in Hebrew like in Arabic is to Heap...This is the main corruption in some classic dictionnary
(2) Link this passage with ALL the surah 37 to have a better understanding
(3) Research the structure (determined the key movie sequences) of this passage
=> all this points are discussed in the link above.

Last but MAIN important points :
(1) Before understanding this passage it is imporant to understand what is the vision of God in the Quran : Al-Rahman..
(2) who blows evil into the breasts of men ? (Cf. surah 113-114) Or, clearly here God gives to Abraham a vision..

NB : good remark with the preposition "li" (destination, possession)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 09, 2019, 11:25:23 AM
Salam Wakas,

I realize that I rushed to answer you. The points you raise are interesting especially with the word "TaLLa" and "the vision" (al ru'ya).
You could add the verb "ṣaddaqta" in (37:105) with its form 2 (repetition of an effort in time which corresponds well with the word l-ṣābirīna used to characterize Ismael). This verb expresses the idea of ​​an accomplishment, of the realization of something in adequacy with one's desire.

I do not agree with your conculsion especially on the word dhib'hin/sacrifice "(root: Dh-BH) which for me must be takes in a figurative sense of "to devote oneself to" (..in the context of the passage, to a noble and divine cause like the other prophets cited as an example in this surah).
And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

Otherwise, to return to the word "TaLLa", your approach is interesting and seductive. This words appears in a sequence [B' in my thread] where, just after this words erupts, Ismael disappears and there remains only God and Ismael as if Ismael was no longer present ; and that Abraham, after fulfilling his mission with Ismael, let Ismael continue alone the work begun in this corner of the desert.
So we would have (I repeat your translation) the following successive sequences:

   (1) So when they are submitted => The accomplished is used here so the realization of the vision is finished

   (2) and he (Abraham) brought ** him (son) to *** his (Abraham's) forehead (or side of head). => The accomplished is here also used and according to your conception Abraham says goodbye with tenderness to his son (smaller than him)

   (3) And We called him: "O Abraham," .. => Abraham departed from his son and God thanked Abraham and comforted him in some way because what he did with his son will be remembered in the memories of men.

Finally, there is no time sequence in Surah 37 between the moment of vision and that of realization.
This sequence is found in Surah (2:124-129).
Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla":
How do you translate and understand (2:127) ?
          Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
          2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

Peace. Thanks for sharing your meditation and reflection.

NB : How do you incorporate images into message ? :)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on August 09, 2019, 12:12:10 PM
To understand a text, first ting is to determine the type of text. Without, whatever is perceived it is erroneous. Each type of text has distinct choice of words and structures.

Firstly we should determine the type of text in 37:100-113.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: hawk99 on August 09, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
New article - click HERE (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html)

Feedback welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

No, Allah does not advocate evil.  Abraham's dream was his own.
His intention was to obey Allah but like many who commit evil acts
in the name of Allah he thought that it was Allah who was inspiring him. 
By Allah's blessing and grace and brother Abraham's reflection he
came to his senses and did not carry out the evil deed.


                                        :peace:
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 10, 2019, 12:08:58 AM
To understand a text, first ting is to determine the type of text. Without, whatever is perceived it is erroneous. Each type of text has distinct choice of words and structures.

Firstly we should determine the type of text in 37:100-113.
I don't know what you mean by "type of text" but, as Allah says in the Quran, if you isolate passage or ayats you may be erroneous like if you don't have a "Raḥmān-ic" context reading of the text..(put the "Basmala" [1:1] in your heart and as a reading grid).
37:100-113 is not isolated from a bigger structure which is 37:75-148 and of all the surah 37 and surah 38 and surah 2 and all the quran..

For example, the only surah where Abraham AND Ishmael act together is surah 37 and 2...It is not a coincidence : all is linked.

For example, the quality of Ishmael is repeated here :
- 21:85 And Ishmael and Enoch and Isaiah, all of them were persevering. (alssabireena => same root in surah 37.)
- 19:54 And recall in the Writing, Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger prophet. (promise ? Which promise ? Look at surah 37..)

@hawk99 => Abraham knows the essence of his master (Rahma as we must know FIRST) and he is able to make the difference between a bad/evil order and a good order. If you read the story of abaraham you will realize that Abraham is someone who doubts and questions the "obvious" things (even from hiw own father !). But in surah 37 there is no place for doubt from Abraham or Ishmael so the vision was clear and the origin has been from God.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on August 10, 2019, 12:13:33 AM
No, Allah does not advocate evil.  Abraham's dream was his own.
His intention was to obey Allah but like many who commit evil acts
in the name of Allah he thought that it was Allah who was inspiring him. 
By Allah's blessing and grace and brother Abraham's reflection he
came to his senses and did not carry out the evil deed.


                                        :peace:

Is anything you have said actually based on Quran? If so please provide the evidence.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on August 10, 2019, 01:43:54 AM
Quote
I don't know what you mean by "type of text" but, as Allah says in the Quran, if you isolate passage or ayats you may be erroneous like if you don't have a "Raḥmān-ic" context reading of the text..(put the "Basmala" [1:1] in your heart and as a reading grid).

How strange! A man working on semitic rhetoric shows ignorance about type of text. Please just google to see how many are types of text and their characteristics, peculiar features. And thereafter look at 37:100-13.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 10, 2019, 02:11:41 AM
How strange! A man working on semitic rhetoric shows ignorance about type of text. Please just google to see how many are types of text and their characteristics, peculiar features. And thereafter look at 37:100-13.
Sarcasm brings nothing and read/meditate my text to the end instead of cutting it and take what you want.
And as you know I already posted the structure of this passage here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30) (Go to the last message)

A clarification: I do not work on the Semitic rhetoric but on the way in which the Koranic speech is structured and coherent and harmonious. Semitic rhetoric is only a tool adapted to the Qur'anic context and to highlight relations between ayats in the Koran
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on August 10, 2019, 02:44:47 AM
Sarcasm brings nothing and read/meditate my text to the end instead of cutting it and take what you want.
And as you know I already posted the structure of this passage here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30) (Go to the last message)

A clarification: I do not work on the Semitic rhetoric but on the way in which the Koranic speech is structured and coherent and harmonious. Semitic rhetoric is only a tool adapted to the Qur'anic context and to highlight relations between ayats in the Koran

Ayah 100-113 is a Narrative. Narrative is a Factual Recount. Narrative texts have to do with real-world events and time. The purposes of narrative may be to inform, to persuade and/or to correct the record, rectify the falsities gleaned by people from the Epistemology of Testimony. The main structural components of a narrative are the orientation, the complication and the resolution, and may include a concluding statement or comment in order to sum up the message.

Narrative writing uses time as its deep structure. Language features of narrative text are:

Adverb of time.

Past Tense is used except in conversations.

Time conjunction (when, then, thereat, suddenly, etc)

Specific character. The character of the episode is specific, not general.

Action verbs. A verb that shows an action.

Direct speech. It is to make the episode lively.

The vocabulary is usually everyday language, depending on the subject matter.

When we keep such basic academic points, we can watch the event in the text.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: hawk99 on August 24, 2019, 09:34:08 AM
Is anything you have said actually based on Quran? If so please provide the evidence.

Peace Wakas, perhaps I should clarify my position.

No, Allah does not advocate evil [7:28] [16:90].  Abraham's dream
was his own.  (nowhere in Quran does it state that Abrahams
dream was from Allah, Muhammad's dream as well as Yusuf's dream
were both from Allah)  His intention was to obey Allah but like many who
commit evil acts in the name of Allah he thought that it was Allah who
was inspiring him. By Allah's blessing and grace and brother
Abraham's reflection  [6:75]-[6:83] he used his God given
blessing of reflection to reach the right conclusion.

                                                    :peace:
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 25, 2019, 11:04:24 AM
Peace Wakas, perhaps I should clarify my position.

No, Allah does not advocate evil [7:28] [16:90].  Abraham's dream
was his own.  (nowhere in Quran does it state that Abrahams
dream was from Allah, Muhammad's dream as well as Yusuf's dream
were both from Allah)  His intention was to obey Allah but like many who
commit evil acts in the name of Allah he thought that it was Allah who
was inspiring him. By Allah's blessing and grace and brother
Abraham's reflection  [6:75]-[6:83] he used his God given
blessing of reflection to reach the right conclusion.

Peace hawk99,

(1)
You have reason to underline Abraham's reflection but please note this sentence from Allah :

37 :106 :
this (was) surely [it] the trial CLEAR in itself.

(2)
Also, Ishmael says "if allah intends" in 37:102 so the vision comes from Allah without doubt.

Salam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 25, 2019, 02:42:43 PM
How can a  student of Qoran even consider that GOD would do such a thing?

Have a look again at GOD s attributes!!!!
 My GOD of Qoran would not order Fahisha/Murder....What? Would GOD contradict Himself? Subhannah Allah!!!

Thou shall not kill is one of the commands. Do not even contemplate the idea.

End of the argument. Or are we looking for a verse that clearly indicates "GOD did not instruct Abraham and had nothing to do with the vision"?
it is clear that one cannot find the verse that clearly identifies the dream to be from GOD? Is that not enough?

GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 25, 2019, 02:59:44 PM
How can a  student of Qoran even consider that GOD would do such a thing?

Have a look again at GOD s attributes!!!!
 My GOD of Qoran would not order Fahisha/Murder....What? Would GOD contradict Himself? Subhannah Allah!!!

Thou shall not kill is one of the commands. Do not even contemplate the idea.

End of the argument. Or are we looking for a verse that clearly indicates "GOD did not instruct Abraham and had nothing to do with the vision"?
it is clear that one cannot find the verse that clearly identifies the dream to be from GOD? Is that not enough?

GOD bless.
Peace.
Salam Good logic,

Do you adress your critic to me ? Because i NEVER say that the vision was about to kill his son (Read my previous interventions in différents threads + it contradict the Basmala and surah 113-114).
Otherwise sorry for this post.

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2019, 07:32:34 AM
My post was not addressed to you in particular brother Iyyaka.
.
It was addressing the title of the topic. i.e Of course Qoran never said "GOD told Abraham to sacrifice his son...".
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on August 26, 2019, 10:07:15 AM
My post was not addressed to you in particular brother Iyyaka.
.
It was addressing the title of the topic. i.e Of course Qoran never said "GOD told Abraham to sacrifice his son...".
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Ok  ;)
Some might think it's a lot of energy to spend on braham history and this small ayat (37:102) but I think it's the heart of our vision of God that is at stake and this vision influences our behavior.
We can say "I put my trust (not Believe) in Allah" but which Allah? This is a fundamental question that must also allow us to have a "Rhamanic" reading of the Qur'an.
Peace and god bless u
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: hawk99 on August 26, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
Peace Wakas, I do like your analogy of the father and son's heartfelt
separation, but when you say:

"No mention of a misinterpreted dream is found in Quran, and this position
requires us to believe that both Abraham and his son misinterpreted it,
which seems unlikely. Note that his son clearly thought it was a command."

Could it not be that his son simply believed his father and replied "do as you are
commanded"

                                            :peace:
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on August 26, 2019, 10:49:47 PM
Kim Il Sun: Son, what do you say if I kill you as a sacrifice to our Korean gods?

Kim Jong Il: Do as you please dad.

Kim Il Sun:  ** Lifting his dagger to kill his own son **

Kim Jong Suk: STOP!!! WTF are you doing!! Il Suk!! Are you F&*ng insane??????? He's our child!!!
                        That's it.. I had enough with this!!
                        Jong Il!!! Come with Mama.. we're leaving this nuthouse..  your dad is F&*ng insane!!
                        As for you Il Sun!! That's it.. I had enough of this.. I'm filing for a divorce.. and you don't deserve any parental rights!!
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 26, 2019, 11:41:02 PM
Kim Il Sun: Son, what do you say if I kill you as a sacrifice to our Korean gods?

Kim Jong Il: Do as you please dad.

Kim Il Sun:  ** Lifting his dagger to kill his own son **

Kim Jong Suk: STOP!!! WTF are you doing!! Il Suk!! Are you F&*ng insane??????? He's our child!!!
                        That's it.. I had enough with this!!
                        Jong Il!!! Come with Mama.. we're leaving this nuthouse..  your dad is F&*ng insane!!
                        As for you Il Sun!! That's it.. I had enough of this.. I'm filing for a divorce.. and you don't deserve any parental rights!!

in old times people were  so sure that God pleased with the color of blood , hence sins can only wash with the help of blood sacrifice..

SACRIFICE type of feelings and actions are assets to human values therefore stories related with sacrifice leave impression on heart and mind of people..

even in this time/space we have to sacrifice ourselves in lot of things to achieve a status of having in someones good books...

millions of poor animals are still paying the price of sacrifice in the name of that event.. blood thirsty land and the land owners cant get rid of coloring the land with red, its a cultural insanity transfer from tradition to tradition in different make up..

years ago i watched a movie Apocalypto (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/) even on the other side of world not yet discovered by ancient people, that practice of maya civilisation  was going on there ..

the ending part of movie was interesting as soon human get rid from one concept of ignorance another new ignorant concept is waiting for him.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on August 27, 2019, 04:26:21 AM
peace,

Peace Wakas, I do like your analogy of the father and son's heartfelt
separation, but when you say:

"No mention of a misinterpreted dream is found in Quran, and this position
requires us to believe that both Abraham and his son misinterpreted it,
which seems unlikely. Note that his son clearly thought it was a command."

Could it not be that his son simply believed his father and replied "do as you are
commanded"

Abraham asked his son for his view (i.e. "look what you see?"), so this suggests his son did exactly that, i.e. gave Abraham his considered opinion. Essentially he concurred with Abraham, emphasising to do as he has been commanded and he (the son) will be of the patient ones, if God willed.
Yes but the son did not object to anything
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 27, 2019, 04:39:43 AM
Peace Jafar.
Your story is not finished, ,this is more like it:

Kim Il Sun: Son, what do you say if I kill you as a sacrifice to our Korean gods?

Kim Jong Il: Do as you please dad.

Kim Il Sun:  ** Lifting his dagger to kill his own son **

Kim Jong Suk: STOP!!! WTF are you doing!! Il Suk!! Are you F&*ng insane? He's our child!!!
                        That's it.. I had enough with this!!
                        Jong Il!!! Come with Mama.. we're leaving this nuthouse..  your dad is F&*ng insane!!
                        As for you Il Sun!! That's it.. I had enough of this.. I'm filing for a divorce.. and you don't deserve any parental rights!!

Kim Il Sun: Son, your mum has saved you. I will sacrifice her instead.

:yeah: :whatever::
GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 27, 2019, 06:12:31 AM
Quote from:


Kim Il Sun: Son, your mum has saved you. I will sacrifice her instead.




then suddenly robbers entered into the house who were also serial rapists/murderers .. now there is a big twist lmao  :rotfl:

robbers demand from parents let them do the things as per their wish otherwise son is at risk ....

wife said ok kill my son i dnt want to give sacrifice anymore, he already was willing to give sacrifice for no reason atleast he have a reason to save the honor of mother..

husband said do whatever you guys want they already planned to leave me ...

another twist son offered robbers that he want to work for them free of charge as a team if they killed both of his parents ...

or horror genre son turned into monster and killed every single person in the house..

stories upon stories, twists upon twists, versions upon versions, thats what the beauty of human mind  = very complicated thing at planet earth..

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 27, 2019, 06:58:47 AM
Yes brother Imran.
 All stories will end and most of the human race will live happily ever after. In HELL!!!!

  Like Pharoah, Hitler, past leaders from all sorts of tribes and nations....
 Perhaps also good logic, Jafar,, your good self ,other brothers and sisters from here and elsewhere that are lucky for now to be living after them generations if each one of us does not "sacrifice " our satans and learn from their examples and stories.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: amin on August 27, 2019, 08:26:41 PM
The moral I think is,

 Abraham belief is so strong he was prepared forego a priceless procession of him, for some cause of goodness, thats the command, and God rewarded for his belief and made it easy with a sacrifice easier for him.

Prepare to give every effort in the name of goodness, God makes it easier.

:)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 27, 2019, 11:31:59 PM
Yes brother Imran.
 All stories will end and most of the human race will live happily ever after. In HELL!!!!


yes brother GL,

you are time-traveler who knows where most of the people will go and what state of happiness and sadness they will experience isnt it..  :rotfl:

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 28, 2019, 06:48:32 AM
It is not rocket Science to know where humans end up after they finish with this life.
They will either be with GOD or without GOD. I,e haven or hell!!!

Since "Majority" do not accept the "rule of GOD"  one can guess the obvious.

So brother Imran this simple matter does not require time travel.
 When we hit the gravel, the destiny of hell is where the majority will travel.
 And all the mysteries you are pondering now will unravel.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 28, 2019, 06:03:11 PM
It is not rocket Science to know where humans end up after they finish with this life.

i agree its not a rocket science becoz rocket science deals  with discovering space.. rocket science got nothing to do with afterlife

its a time-travelling science still in process of discovery shrouded in cover of mystery

Since "Majority" do not accept the "rule of GOD"  one can guess the obvious.

becoz majority get the rules from human made ideas,things,books vs the direct communication/postage.

guesswork plays an important role specially its very easy to guess about future becoz nobody can prove it wrong due to lack of vision in future, hence time-traveling required for proven fact..

They will either be with GOD or without GOD. I,e haven or hell!!!

nothing will gona happen whats not in accordance to the plan of creator, you and me will find out in future, until then chill lol..


So brother Imran this simple matter does not require time travel.

 When we hit the gravel, the destiny of hell is where the majority will travel.


may b its simple for you but science see it differently, future events prediction with a solid claim absolutely required time-travel..

the one who made the destiny will lead all actors to the place what he created for the actors of past and future.. according to his plan of placing actors who performed the roles what designed for them by designer.

if he want you to play a villain or hero then nothing can stop you from playing that role..
mickey mouse will certainly play the role what walt disney(his creator) decided for him...mickey got no power to go against walt-disney
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on August 28, 2019, 08:49:44 PM
Peace Jafar.
Your story is not finished, ,this is more like it:

Definitely, let me put some more on top of yours..

Kim Il Sun: Son, what do you say if I kill you as a sacrifice to our Korean gods?

Kim Jong Il: Do as you please dad.

Kim Il Sun:  ** Lifting his dagger to kill his own son **

Kim Jong Suk: STOP!!! WTF are you doing!! Il Suk!! Are you F&*ng insane? He's our child!!!
                        That's it.. I had enough with this!!
                        Jong Il!!! Come with Mama.. we're leaving this nuthouse..  your dad is F&*ng insane!!
                        As for you Il Sun!! That's it.. I had enough of this.. I'm filing for a divorce.. and you don't deserve any parental rights!!

Kim Il Sun: Son, your mum has saved you. I will sacrifice her instead.

** Kim Il Sun starting to assault his own wife Kim Jong Suk, but due to Il Sun's old age Jong Suk managed to put on a good fight before finally run away with her son Jong Il. During the fight Jong Il called 911 for help and 30 minutes later the police came to apprehend Kim Il Sun **

Judge: Kim Il Sun you're being charged with Assault and Attempted Murder how do you plead?

Kim Il Sun: Not Guilty Your Honor!! I was being tricked by Satan, he promised me that if I sacrificed my own son I will own the land of this entire country as a reward.

Judge: Huh??? So this Satan is some kind of real estate agent???

Kim Il Sun's Lawyer: Your honor, on behalf of my client, we would like to put a mental disorder defense for this case.


Note:
If "Kim Il Sun" was living today, he definitely will not be remembered as a 'hero' but as a 'lunatic'...
I deliberately put the same story in "Korean" context thus no one will feel obliged to defend their 'idol' / 'hero' thus more objectivity to view this case is expected.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 29, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
Peace Imran.

I disagree with your take here, quote:

the one who made the destiny will lead all actors to the place what he created for the actors of past and future.. according to his plan of placing actors who performed the roles what designed for them by designer.

if he want you to play a villain or hero then nothing can stop you from playing that role..
mickey mouse will certainly play the role what walt disney(his creator) decided for him...mickey got no power to go against walt-disney


My take here:
You  , me and every individual make their own destiny.. The creator does not force or want anyone to be/do evil
Thank your lucky stars you experience life. Or would you prefer you were nothing?
I accept the restraints of life and death put on me. I trust the creator for what I cannot control. I acknowledge my limited knowledge will hinder my decisions. But I accept accountability and freedom to shape my own destiny which the creator granted every human.

The creator does not want you to be anything you do not want to be. Good or bad are the choices that we make.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 29, 2019, 04:28:42 PM

My take here:
You  , me and every individual make their own destiny..


its just your  wishful thinking.
you me and everyone have 0 % control in everything what happened and will happen to me, you and everybody..

i wish we could make our destiny or atleast 0.00001 % of our destiny.

btw we are going off-topic here i said to prove the afterlife events one have to master over time-travel. otherwise all are just guessworks so we need to treat them like guess-works.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 30, 2019, 02:48:46 AM
Peace Imran.
So you are controlled by some power in choosing and making your own decisions?
Then go and do whatever you want. That power will be accountable for you.
You have a good excuse as far as you are concerned.

This is very much on topic. Had Abraham sacrificed his son, would he have blamed GOD ?
One would argue logically and fairly that if GOD had instructed the act, then GOD is to blame!!!!

According to your thinking, accountability does not exist?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 30, 2019, 03:23:32 AM

So you are controlled by some power in choosing and making your own decisions?


what is a difference between making destiny and making decision ?
did u made ur destiny ?
did u select what time,country,race you born?

now its (double-offtopic) its ok if you are not a time-traveler  :rotfl: you dun wana admit its another matter.. :laugh:



This is very much on topic. Had Abraham sacrificed his son, would he have blamed GOD ?
One would argue logically and fairly that if GOD had instructed the act, then GOD is to blame!!!!


although i decided to talk further on that issue if u want my views on it..as i see that linked with topic.

he(abraham) already knew its from God still billions of muslims believed on it that it was from God in the end God send a lamb miracle when abraham opened his eyes lamb was there instead of ishmael..

they already made abraham slaughter his son..(but a miracle appearance of lamb saved him from becoming a son slayer) otherwise we all will be slaying our sons as a tradition  :rotfl: i still hear that story people telling their kids infront of me.


BOLD one would also argue God is responsible for the deaths by tsunami, volcanoes, earthquakes, flood, accidents, etc
and also when nations like lot, adh, samod, noah get destroyed by God there were innocent kids there too etc..
one can also argue not a leaf can move without God permission etc...(everything comes from him)

one can argue a lot about lot of things.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on August 30, 2019, 06:24:32 AM
Had Abraham sacrificed his son, would he have blamed GOD ?
One would argue logically and fairly that if GOD had instructed the act, then GOD is to blame!!!!

According to your thinking, accountability does not exist?

First and foremost, nobody can be really sure that this "Abraham attempted to murder his own child" really did happened.
And personally I find a lot of suspicious / odious things about the myth / legend in the first place.

And it came down to "CLAIM ON A PIECE OF LAND".

The sequence of the myth are:
1. Abraham attempted to sacrifice his own child
2. God is moved on what Abraham is willing to do for Him and send out Gabriel to stop the act and put a lamb instead.
   (Note: What did the lamb do to deserve this ???? another point to ponder..)
3. Afterward God is so happy that He made a Real Estate agreement with Abraham, God will give the entire land of Canaan to Abraham's descendant and to seal the real estate contract; God demanded Abraham's descendant's penises to be circumcised. As long as they keep circumcising the penises of their boys, God will honor the real estate contract.

I found the above to be totally ridiculous...  :rotfl: :rotfl:

A series of ridiculous events to justify a claim of ownership made by a group of people on a piece of land and also a justification to expel people not from their own group (those with uncircumcised penises)  from the piece of land.

BTW, my penis is also circumcised thus I have a divine right to own a land in the middle east?????  :rotfl: :rotfl:

Next..

From series of events which made up the legend / myth of Abraham, why the heck they choose to commemorate and celebrate the insanity of Abraham??????

Why not commemorate / celebrate the bravery and brilliance of Abraham when he decided to go against all odds to expose the scam of religion put forth by religious authority?
Even though his own dad was among the key figure of religious authority??
And Abraham was convicted with death by burning because of it?????

That is something that truly deserves a standing ovation....

In similar manner as today's John Oliver put forth a funny and well made exposure of religious scam.
Televangelists: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
https://youtu.be/7y1xJAVZxXg
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 30, 2019, 07:42:06 AM

BTW, my penis is also circumcised thus I have a divine right to own a land in the middle east?????  :rotfl: :rotfl:


 :rotfl: :rotfl:

i wonder why dnt they follow the command the way it happened to abraham..

At the age of 80 Abraham did his circumcision with the help of AXE,  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


 (Note: What did the lamb do to deserve this ???? another point to ponder..)


on the other hand they sacrificed the animals of different kinds instead of lamb lol..

all other animals cows,goats,sheeps,camel,cattle etc will file a case against the un-justice happened to them, they can easily say in the story lamb was there whats our fault  :hmm (animal abuse victims)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 30, 2019, 12:23:40 PM
I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.
So  Jafar and Imran,  you are talking  about peoples view on the story.

A lot of assumptions and misunderstanding has nothing to do with what I posted.
Also I do not have a religion, brother Jafar you are mixing  me up with some religion I do not claim.

If you quote me, address my points in my posts . Where did I mention any lamb?
GOD bless you both.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on August 30, 2019, 12:33:00 PM
I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.

Correct the "Quran version" doesn't mention any lamb...

Quote
Also I do not have a religion, brother Jafar you are mixing  me up with some religion I do not claim.
Good for you.. religion / cult is a poison to common sense and healthy conscience...

But again whether it's replaced with lamb, beef or kebab or salad doesn't really matter.
It's the entire story that I find it ridiculous...

Why not commemorate the legend of Abraham on some of his bold achievement?
Exposing the scam of religion within his own society.
And make it as an inspiration on everyday life...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 30, 2019, 12:47:38 PM
Peace Jafar.
Firstl bring me where I commemorated anything about Abraham? If you are addressing me. Then add this to it, quote:

Why not commemorate the legend of Abraham on some of his bold achievement?
Exposing the scam of religion within his own society.
And make it as an inspiration on everyday life...

Otherwise brother Jafar you are making assumptions about me.
Can you see the irony and hypocrisy in your posts ? You are laughing at some assumed views/religion about me!
That is as bad or worse than what you seem to be criticising.
Reminds one of the "plank in the eye", you quote Jesus a lot in some of your posts brother. Use the advice for you as well.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 30, 2019, 04:37:16 PM

I do not see any lamb in the story of Abraham in Qoran.
So  Jafar and Imran,  you are talking  about peoples view on the story.


correct you said something like this

This is very much on topic. Had Abraham sacrificed his son, would he have blamed GOD ?
One would argue logically and fairly that if GOD had instructed the act, then GOD is to blame!!!!


 :laugh:


A lot of assumptions and misunderstanding has nothing to do with what I posted.


   :o :rotfl:
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 31, 2019, 08:47:50 AM
Peace Imran.
 You are joking ? Quote:
correct you said something like this.

Like what? Where do you get "lamb" from my quote?

You mean you do not get what I said?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 31, 2019, 01:35:52 PM
@ gl bro let me make it more easy for you..

Me and jafar did not say GL is talking bout lamb,

Then rest of my posts will b easy to understand.

 :rotfl:  and i m not joking, ur posts make me laugh a lot thanks for the laughs what i get from u. I appreciate you for this .
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on August 31, 2019, 02:44:56 PM
Thanks brother Imran. I like things easy.
I will  help you out by mentioning "lamb", actually many "lambs" in this post:

My wife said we each needed to make sacrifices to make our relationship work.
She was less than impressed with the dead lamb I left in our kitchen.

She was right. In order to make a relationship work, you have to make a lot of sacrifices….
Which is why I keep a large number of lambs in my garden…

I adopted a lamb the other day, but my wife said I'd have to get rid of it...
I guess as long as I live with my wife, I'll have to make sacrifices.
 
As for Abraham:
Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son ?
If it was someone  else s son it wouldn't be much of  a sacrifice.

Do you also want me to tell a story about sacrifice from the beginning?;

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are:
Then he eventually created Adam, who was having a lot of fun in the garden, walking around naked, eating fruit from various trees, and hanging out with/naming all of the animals. including lambs.

But one day, Adam began to feel lonely and decided to talk to God about it. In that discussion, Adam expressed that he didn't really have anyone to talk with or connect to on an emotional and physical level and that, somehow, he was incomplete.

God then told Adam about this wonderful creation he had in the works called a woman. In that discussion, he described this woman as being a helpmate, a lover, a friend, a confidant, and a lifetime companion. God said that she would support him in all of his righteous endeavours.

Adam told God that this sounded like the perfect remedy to his ailment and asked God if there was anything he could do to help get things moving along? God said that he would take care of everything, but that he needed an arm and a leg from Adam before he could proceed.

Shocked, Adam asked for some alone time to contemplate such a sacrifice for his own emotional and physical needs. After several hours, he got up, reconvened with God and asked, "What can I get for a rib?"

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 31, 2019, 07:33:30 PM
@ lovely GL

mysterious boy i knew u are a time traveler  :yay: you told us a story about our first parents how they started dating  :rotfl:

u didnt tell who bring eve ? was it gabi or his own rib ? and the most beautiful moment when adam saw eve and he looked in to her eyes like filmy hero  :rotfl: and eve get shy ...

then adam said to eve,

ADAM darling i love u a  lot and theres nothing that can separate us.
EVE i know my love adam, there is  noone except me and you so none can seperate us anyway..

but they forget an enemy is making a plan to give them damage that was ibless  >:D
and also a time traveler GL  ;) was there

whatever story/movie u come up with there is always a hero and villain hahahaha some times guest appearance like you  :handshake:
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: good logic on September 01, 2019, 03:13:52 AM
Peace Imran.
. I will sacrifice  the normal rules just one more time and go off topic in this last post to tell you my last 3 stories:

1- GOD is doing a better job nowadays ( and not asking anyone to sacrifice their son or daughter) my grand daughter says so:

My grand daughter  asked, “Did God make me?”
“Yes,”  I replied.
“Did he make you, too?”
“Yes.”
“Well,” looking at my wrinkles and thinning hair, “he sure is doing a better job nowadays!”

2- GOD still knows what everyone is doing nowadays ( This Imam has just realised!):

 Some working construction company was, levelling the corner of a house that they had jacked about 4 inches above the ground. One of the jacks slipped  at the weekend and the house came down with a loud bang.
The next thing , the owner who was the local Imam and a woman who was inside with him, ran out and looked up at the sky. “I thought  you did not really know about this  Allah, please forgive me....

3- Everyone misunderstands me brother. Even my wife thought I was telling her a joke when my story was real( I was knocking at my own door!):

Knock! Knock!
 My wife:Who’s there?
  Me: Mikey.
 My wife: Mikey who?
 Me: Mikey isn’t working, can you let me in?

Thanks for the conversation . Time to go and sacrifice another lamb!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 01, 2019, 04:18:15 PM

Thanks for the conversation . Time to go and sacrifice another lamb!!!!


make sure i want lamb chops grilled one, poor lamb is on trial lol

i just remember movie The Silence of the Lambs  (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102926/) must watch movie somehow related with sacrifices.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on September 01, 2019, 08:19:03 PM
Peace Jafar.
Firstl bring me where I commemorated anything about Abraham? If you are addressing me. Then add this to it, quote:

When I'm quoting a text, I'm addressing the statement in the quote and not the author / poster of the quote.
Infact most of the time I didn't bother to see who actually posted the statement.

Speaking about sacrificing and commemorating ridiculous "Abraham tradition".
I just found out that a friend of mine 'sacrificed' vegetables in order to commemorate the tradition, the reason being he's a vegetarian now and refused to do anything or even contribute to anything which might caused harm to animals.
He asked me: "Would that still be acceptable by God?"
Which I answered with: "I don't know, but who knows, maybe God loves salad..."
A nice idea though, which makes me wondered what would have happened if Abraham was a vegetarian too..

Islamic version also tell a legend that finally Mr. / Ms Satan is finally doing good this time around...
He/She tried to stop Abraham from murdering his own son, but Abraham shun him/her away by pelting stones at him/her.
Commemorated (only by Muslims) by throwing stones at pillars (jamrah/jamarat) as part of the Hajj ritual.
Which added more inconsistency to already ridiculous legend.
Throw stones to anyone who tried to stop you from murdering your own son...


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: NK on September 07, 2019, 03:53:27 AM
It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.   

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on September 07, 2019, 04:03:15 AM
It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.   

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?


Exactly, NK.
Thank God  you point that out. Not even in dreams does God tell him to do anything, he simple dreams that he sarifices his son. And that is why, when his son turns older and they go out together, he tells him: I have this dream, my dear son, what do you make of it?

He could not be talking with that even straightfoward manner if what he was taling about was killing his son with his own hands, he would be absolutely overwhelmed.

Once more, supposed Qur'an believers are drowned in sippings of the bible.

Salaam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Jafar on September 07, 2019, 11:07:39 AM
Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?

The earliest evidence about story of Abraham smashing idols, and showing Abraham's superior logic compared to his society during that time, was first appeared in Midrash (300 AD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop

While the story Abraham trying to murder his son was written / authored earlier,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac

The Jews / Israelites were known to commemorate the 'Abraham murdering his son' a.k.a as "Akedah" during their "Rosh Hashanah" festival (Jewish New Year). Much earlier than their Christians and Muslims counterpart.

It's clear that the Xtians and Muslims, which appeared much later compared to Judaism, took the same Abraham myth and add some flavors in accordance to their taste, Specifically the Muslims changed the place of events to Mecca and add additional flavors of Abraham throwing stones at the Devil because the Devil was trying to persuade him to stop his murderous events. (Yet another ridiculous myth added to already ridiculous myth). And they're proposing that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed and not Isaac. (Yeah, whatever... it doesn't take away the insanity of the myth anyway)

We may never know what truly happened or even if Mr. Abraham truly exist.
But.... if there are options to commemorate the Abraham myths, let's opted for the "logical Abraham smashing the biggest idol" as written in the Midrash and the Quran.





Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 07, 2019, 11:56:29 PM
peace,

It is quite strange that no one in the Quran takes their dreams literally. Prophet Joseph, Two prisoners in the cell, King's dream, Prophet Muhammad etc. They all interpret their dreams as everyone knows that events in the dreams are not literal but allegorical events which requires interpretation.   

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) was a very logical person according to Quran. How can he take his dream literally?


See article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote:
To end I would like readers to ponder over the following point. Please note the interesting use of different words for 'the sleep/dream' (al manam) in 37:102, and 'the vision' (al ru'ya) in 37:105. Please re-read the verses above.
At first I thought this was unusual but my research of Quran has often taught me that its use of language is precise and for a reason so I decided to dig deeper and I was amazed at what I found. The usage of 'al manam' in Quran always indicates a literal dream meaning, i.e. no interpretation required, but 'al ru'ya' involves foretelling of a future event that requires interpretation. Thus, Abraham saw in his dream/manam that he was literally sacrificing his son in 37:102, but in 37:105 God states he confirmed the vision/ru'ya (i.e. interpreted dream). If Quran had said he confirmed his 'al manam' that could have implied he was about to carry out what he literally saw. Coincidence?

Summary
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he was rewarded.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on September 10, 2019, 02:21:01 PM
peace,

See article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Summary
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he was rewarded.
Salam Wakas,

Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37:103, I would like to thank you for forcing me to look again at this passage on Abraham in Surah 37.
Here is my analysis of the structural observation of this story:

1) Abraham's stories goes from verse 37:83 to verse 37:113 (the longest story that deals with the past among other stories)

2) This Qur'anic narrative can be divided into 2 big blocks :
 - From verse 37-83 to verse 37:93 => Abraham is alone
 - From verse 37:94 to verse 37: 113 => Abraham with his son and alone with Allah

3) In the first narrative block(V83-93) we find 2 elements of "sacrifice":

1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation
2. An attempt fails, by Allah's grace, to "sacrifice" Abraham at a pyre ((37: 97: 4) bun'yānan = a structure / Interesting Root definition => Ibn Faris says this root means to build by linking apart from one thing by another)

3') In the second narrative block(V94-113) we find 1 element of "sacrifice":

1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham who separates himself from his son definitively after helping him to fulfill his vision - Well done for your remark in your article.

But the question that comes to me: By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice")

Answer: watallahu lil .. = He heaps it at ...


I know that it does not suit your conclusion but thank you for your help for the meditation, by the grace of allah..
Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 11, 2019, 01:57:35 AM
peace Iyyaka,


But the question that comes to me: By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice")


Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

#####

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 11, 2019, 03:58:06 AM
peace Iyyaka,

Sorry, I only just now read your earlier post below.

Quote
Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37:103...

I read your analysis just now and I consider it weaker, in comparison to my own. My understanding (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html) is relatively straightforward and the most cogent from a Quranic perspective, in my view.

And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

This can also fit with my understanding.

Quote
Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla":
How do you translate and understand (2:127) ?
          Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
          2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

I can only assume you consider 2:127 relevant is because you think the "sacrificial son" was Ishmael. Quran is not explicit on whom it was but my research indicates it was Isaac. The context of the verses only mention Isaac. Most Biblical scholars considered it to be Isaac, and most early Traditional Muslim scholars also considered it to be Isaac. Muslim scholars changed their mind later (at some point in time). There are various theories/reasons as to why they changed their mind but my preliminary research suggests it was to give eminence to Makkah and to link the Traditional Hajj rtuals with Abraham.

In any case you can read my translation and analysis of that verse here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on September 11, 2019, 06:06:50 AM
peace Iyyaka,

Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

#####

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
Sorry but my proofs are only quranic - the signs from allah are there. No subjective interpretation : just literal context proofs.
As i said i don't believe, under quranic control, at a "PHYSICAL sacrifice", even in dream, between Abraham and Ismael. You can sacrifice your life to spread the message of Allah..as all the messenger.
If the word "sacrifice" disturb you you can use "to devoted yourself to a cause..".

We must separate 2 thinks :

1) First the "sacrifice" of Abraham and Ismael for Allah and specially to call people to visit "the first bouse of gathering" and purify it (not the Kaaba but a place well define) where Ismal stayed live at this place for the rest of his life.

2) Abraham built with the help of Ismael an altar (Kaaba) as a symbol (the arabic word "shaʿār" - visible) of offering animals for defined days every year to thank Allah for his blessings and to feed the poor.
=> 5:95 :
"...and to make it as a donation to reach/as-an-offering-to the Ka'aba..." => So clear, no subjective idea.
And the root word of Ka'aba can refer to the ankle (high and full and useful/beneficial) or the firm and rounded boobs of young woman. (This 2 examples are also in the Quran not in my imagination).

if you do not believe that allah gives you signs by the structuring of his speech and the links that he makes even through different suras then it is your right, BUT from there to declare that it is a SUBJECTIVE method I think that it is a counterproductive manner and a no-Quranic argument ("Does they meditate ?"), which does not profit in advancing the truth.

NB : just a precision => The quranic Word "Ka'aba" does not fit with what traditional Muslims call Ka'aba at modern Mecca

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on September 22, 2019, 12:07:40 PM
Salam!
I agree that Ibrahim was to leave his sons. There is no sacrifice of animal or human. ذبح عظیم means great separation/splitting.
May be it is talking about the death of Ibrahim AS. Not sure.
Peace!
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 22, 2019, 11:56:31 PM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
New article - click HERE (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html)

Feedback welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

Peace Wakas...

For me your article seems very interesting... but i will go through again when i have time...

For everyone : if you say that dream is not from God, then i cannot agree to it... whatever the dreams mentioned in quran (many right) all seems from God... Story may end sad but from God... But i don't personally whatever the dreams people used to see in their life is from God or not..expect an answer to it..
For example two prisoners saw dreams and they were explained by dream specialist Yousuf and what they saw in the turned out to be as true predictions.. There could be meaningful dreams which really gives concerns to people... we used to see dreams and not even remember what they are, but very few dreams it touches our heart and hovers around to see what it could be...

Finally as per quran non of the dreams stated in it is not from satan or any other forces.. but from God... But all dreams will have meaning or not.. no clue.. Ibrahim was not a dream specialist.. we don't see it in quran directly applying it to him.. And all messages won't come through dreams.. If allah want to talk to a human to pass a message there is three way according to verse 42:51...

So dreams are kind of indirect hint that God may send us, but not always... it is not our duty to believe in them unless there is an authority given... example Yousuf.. people could have asked from him since God has taught him and it is an authority.. But Abraham never had such capacity which we are not told through quran...

In fact if Abraham saw was something that has to performed, Abraham could have waited till a messenger comes to him and reveal - (if you take the story as sacrifice)

But i think what waqas telling is a different story and ..... that is something to ponder... coz Abraham took the dream from God and implemented it without any direct message being delivered...After all he was a messenger and any orders of such extent would have directly come to him through a messenger... But ibrahm believed the dream ...




Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 23, 2019, 03:25:26 AM
"My Lord, grant me from the righteous." ~~~ He was righteous..wasn’t he?
So We gave him good news of a compassionate child. ~~~ God gave good news… does God need to give him a bad news when he grows up?
So when he reached the age of striving/working (with him), he said: "Indeed I have seen in sleep/dream that I am sacrificing you, so look what you see?" He said: "O my father, do what you are commanded (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones." ~~~ what Ibrahim saw was a dream and not a command.. Will ever Allah command anything to any messenger through Dream.. Allah may show dreams and dreams may come true.. but will Allah ever order to do what a person saw in dream (which is practically unconscious)… Ismail is righteous child and compassionate.. he would obey his father for sure and of course more than that Ibrahim was a messenger and need to obey..But Ismail was a not a grown man (refer musa grown man verse)… so Ismail said, “Do what you are COMMANDED” Is it really a command from God for Ibrahim to practice? No.. Unless any such command was given to Ibrahim through dream previously. 42:51 denies anyhow.. “Ismail further said (You will) find me if God will of the patient”… Yes Dear Waqas He cant be patient after he was killed.. But Till Ibrahim implement what he has seen in the dream, Ismail can be utterly patient till he face it.. not to escape or deny.. That is real patience.. while being with his father and knowing he is gonna kill him….And He was in fact patient..
The dream (Mana) of Mohamed was not a command.. it was just an encouragement and even doubtful Mohamed knew that it was from Allah until the verse was revealed saying it..and in the end what Mohamed saw was not real coz reality was different but encouraged..
So when they both submitted and he (Abraham) brought** him (son) to*** his (Abraham's) forehead (or side of head). ~~~  So they both (Aslama – Surrendered not submited) to execute the task… How do you decide that He brought Ismail to Abrahm’s forehead? Does Arabic verse give you a clear cut meaning to accept that Abraham’s head.. why can’t it be Ismail’s head…
And We called him: "O Abraham," ~~~ Most significant part.. pls answer Mr. Waqas.. Why God through a Messenger (coz WE is used) should call “O Ibrahim” when actually Ibrahim took Ismail to his forehead… God could have called Ibrahim once Ismail actually leaving him if you take the meaning in that way.. God called Ibrahim at the right time to avoid and save from a great disaster .. That suits as most of the quran believers accept… What is the point of isolating a not fully grown man from him if it was the real meaning of it?
"Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision." Indeed like thus We reward the righteous/good-doers. ~~~ What was said to Ibrahim by calling him … said “you believed the vision”.. If it was a command from God, why the command was cancelled by calling at Ibrahim? What was the reward after cancelling  a command? I consider it cancelled with the flow of verses coz he was ransomed of a disastrous sacrifice…The dream doesn’t state that should be left alone on his journey. Ibrahim doesn’t need to send him alone.. He could have properly took him to the place where he should be left. 14:37 doesn’t say just leaving anyone … it is stated “ I have SETTLED some of my Progeny ..” huge difference to above..

Remember God calling 37:104 O’ Ibrahim.. while Ibrahim calling 14:37“O our Lord, I have settled” totally contrary… These are two incidents..
Surely this (was) a clear trial. ~~~~ of course it was a trial and a great one which Ibrahim trapped but God saved both and it was a reward and great favor and specially for Righteous like Ibrahim when he was in dilemma …We all are put to test but not always you will find God save from our evil act without knowledge..Ibrahim was favored..

And We ransomed/exchanged him with/for a mighty/great sacrifice. ~~~ what God ransomed was in fact great and it could have been a DISASTROUS sacrifice… not at all a great (highly valued) sacrifice… but ismail was saved and ransomed of a disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice…Why take Azeem as good side of GREAT why not bad side of great..

Further Ismail was not isolated as we can see  Abrahim and ismail together raised foundation of the house (whatever it is)…Abrahim established the house and were entrusted to keep it clean and tidy.. and Ibrahim SETTLED remember some of his Progeny.. big difference it makes to your view when we compare the word settled? It was not like Ibrahim isolated his son in a sad and horrible way to consider it a great matter..that’s barbaric act…Even the dream was not such to leave him in a barbaric manner. So how he could take him to his forehead and say bye bye…that’s bizarre..


Anyhow it is interesting your research... but not convincing and i would remain with the conventional understanding...but definitely not sacrificing animal remembering Abrahim and ismalil and resorting to Makka... all nonsense..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 23, 2019, 09:12:45 AM
peace jkhan,

Re:
Quote
what Ibrahim saw was a dream and not a command.. Will ever Allah command anything to any messenger through Dream.....
....so Ismail said, “Do what you are COMMANDED” Is it really a command from God for Ibrahim to practice? No.. Unless any such command was given to Ibrahim through dream previously. 42:51 denies anyhow.. ...

1) we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream.
2) there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one.
3) his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.
4) 42:51 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories.

Re:
Quote
How do you decide that He brought Ismail to Abrahm’s forehead? Does Arabic verse give you a clear cut meaning to accept that Abraham’s head.. why can’t it be Ismail’s head…

Both before and after this part, the one spoken of is Abraham. To suggest otherwise will be inserting a break in addressee without any reason.

Re:
Quote
Why God through a Messenger (coz WE is used) should call “O Ibrahim” when actually Ibrahim took Ismail to his forehead… God could have called Ibrahim once Ismail actually leaving him if you take the meaning in that way.. God called Ibrahim at the right time to avoid and save from a great disaster

It doesn't say when he was called but I have no issue if it was during or immediately after this goodbye embrace. If we take your view, one could argue why not call to him as Abraham raised the knife/sword etc (i.e. last minute). The fact that you consider it your "most significant part" indicates your objections to my position is weak.

I considered your other points poor/irrelevant, hence no reply. If you think they are, perhaps you can articulate them better, keeping it concise.

Also, you consistently kept referring to the "sacrifice son" as Ishmael. There is no Quranic evidence of this.




Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 23, 2019, 11:45:59 PM
Dear Brother Waqas,
Thank you for taking your valuable time to respond my concerns..
Btw your article is interesting but honestly not convincing coz it doesn’t convince me, I have no idea about others..but many of your articles have convinced me and I verified it with quran..

1)   we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream. ~~~..yeah.. that’s the truth.. then why you claim so that it was a command? God says wait till my command comes… messengers have waited though the followers were in a hurry..how do you judge on what God has not taught you ? Has God taught you to take the dream/s as command or is it in quran? That will put any one in great confusion … confusion is not command, but commands are clear .. only three ways 42:51

2) there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one. ~~~ who gave you this authority? I am serious.. how you conclude it? Give Quranic proof to go in line as you always write in articles..
3) his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.~~~ His son didn’t know anything.. do you agree.. Everything was Abraham’s mere decision.. That’s’ why His son said “Do what you are commanded…” No command to his son or no information and totally nothing…And no evidence of proof sending a Messenger .. no confirmation.. merely Abraham’s dream for which Abraham was asking sort of PERMISION from his son.. wasn’t he? “so look what you see” this is what Abraham said.. so needs his son’s permission.. in case His son refused then Allah’s command is nullified.. How can a messenger nullify a command from God just coz his son doesn’t agree?
See the end… God only said to Abrahm “ You believed the dream” no reward nothing to his son… who is more sacrificing person here Abraham or His son.. be it isolating him or sacrificing… His son is key and not Abrahim.. without his son acknowledgement nothing would happen out there..


4) 42:51 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories. ~~~ Yes.. that’s what I emphasize… no believer can take anything as command unless God has spoken to someone in any of the medium which 42:51 refers..no need any explicit explanation from God while He crystal clearly said in 42:51.. So.. God won’t talk to any human being including Ibrahim other than those three medium… Dreams are not God’s command and any orders that we have to take into our life… you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized..


Further what you mean other irrelevant points?... may be you referring the word Azeem..

You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse..

Dear it is of course physical sacrifice God referred… No other meaning you can get it.. dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) (entire quran either slaughter / sacrifice) so stick with it.. don't deviate.. Just look at the verse 56:46 where Azeem appears.. does that mean Mighty / Great Sin in a positive sense… no way.. that is something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.. That’s perfect.. claiming separation is fine from your end, but you can’t end with the verse 37:107 – He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice.. read the verse 56:46 or similar to get a clear picture what the Azeem + sacrifice may mean…

Finally you stated that I was kept using Ismail..yeah sorry.. but your article started saying about Eid Al Adha and conventional and majority of muslims practices… so what they practice is connected with Abraham and Ismail..You can’t be referring any other while you are talking about them…. Anyhow lets stick with quran… hope any of the son of Abrahm..

Folks.. anyway.. it is not a big deal like the creation of heavens and earth and distorting them... Ibrahim knows what actually he did so did his son.. it won't harm our belief... so let people raise opinions... but i love sticking with quran's immaculate meaning.. coz it is only one meaning intended by God.. Not me and Waqas be right... only one God intended meaning ... lets approach for it...
 :handshake:

Sorry... in addition to that the complete chapter 37 is talking about delivering messengers and people from Great disasters... and ibrahim ans ismail is no exception... pls members who have not read the chapter fully, read when you have time...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 24, 2019, 04:36:28 AM
peace jkhan,

Re: 2)
It's simple. If we take your position, then every single event in Quran that occurs once cannot be accepted (because it doesn't have a prior example), e.g. God speaking with Moses, angels submitting to adam etc etc etc etc the list is endless. If you think this line of reasoning has merit, each to their own.

Re 4)
I dont think you understand 42:51. All you need to ask yourself is are dreams explicitly excluded in 42:51. Answer is obviously no. It could easily fall under wahy or from behind a barrier.
You say "you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized.." Exactly, see 12:6. Messengers/prophets are in unique situation, having unique access to the divine. I guess for you its just another coincidence that Abraham/Isaac are mentioned in 12:6 in the context of Joseph's dream and the ability to interpret narratives.

You said "You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse.."
I recommend re-reading the article, quote: "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice Abraham made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

It's interesting how you say "no clue" when your interpretation involves a madeup ram/goat inserted into the context and no-one knows why it's mighty/great/azeem. Even by your own argument this ram would have to be "evil-oriented" / "unpleasant" in some way. Whoops. I leave these problems in your view for you to resolve.


At the end of the day, for me it's real simple: I look at the options and determine which one is the most sound / least problematic, then go with that option. Each to their own.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 24, 2019, 04:44:11 AM
And We ransomed/exchanged him (son or Abraham?) with/for a mighty/great sacrifice. [37:107]



I forgot to say, upon re-examining 37:107 it seems the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. It's traditionally taken to refer to his son, but the flow/context suggests Abraham.

Either way it works for my view, however for the ram sacrifice exchange story, it only works if it refers to his son.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 24, 2019, 08:52:07 AM
Dear waqas... Peace...
Foremost we have to keep in mind that this was a real story and it happened in the life of Ibrahim and his son.. The story God explained to us inserting in Quran.. And quran is meant for guidance.. You can give one story and I can give another but only one thing happened... Are you without slight doubt ensure to everyone that what is written is right in your view point.. Then you are responsible for it.. But in my case I am only refuting what you have written based on my understanding of Quran.. I may be wrong and be right..
This is one of the bad aspect when it comes to grasp quran in its pure meaning.. This is where sometimes I feel may be God used the word ulama (learned ones) pointing at the isreal community.. Saying that they would have known quran  ... So to know QURAN guidance plus being literate throughly in the subject is kind of criteria..
So sites like this can be utilized to it's maximum..  Coz most of the people here are literate and most of them have studied quran and explored... So even a expert person make a mistake another may able to point his her error...  But unfortunately I don't see a concerted effort by a majority in this forum to nullify a wrong point or accept a right thing... That should be here.. If we are real believers.. Coz this site shouldn't serve for confusion.. Finally after every debate either this or that should be the right thing... And chapter close.. If no one knows.. Let it be...
Certain important topics argued and gone nowhere and in great confusion for any minow or someone who lacks vast knowledge in Quran... He or she will end up clueless..
Is quran so ambiguous so we all have different conviction on almost all points being still quran based believers.. ..  Or else we have to self satisfied saying God only knows... Or are we adamant and eccentric to claim I am right you are wrong... Or else there is no value in this forum coz in the what would person take as a right thing... Or such forums are useless and better be reading Quran and beg from God for guidance.. And be satisfied with what He guided.. So no one is giving wrong info to any other believer... But God encourage to argue and spread truth...  I honestly feel in this forum there should be a concerted meaning with majority after comprehensive discourses... For that everyone who read the forum better participate..

I hope everyone get my concern in right n positive way...
For example I remember we argued meat of swine... What actually QURAN explained.. The reader of this forum after few years,  what he should take and leave.. It is his own decision.. Or let him go dissapointed without knowing what is right.
Coz there cannot be two sides among believers with one QURAN.. Otherwise I am afraid as of everything among QURAN believers there will be thousands of sect in future...  Why we can't get together to give one meaning to this Quran...  Coz definitely meant one meaning... It is not ambiguous...

Yes.. It's free minds web... So let everyone make their view... Will there be guidance in this way... God's knows best...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2019, 01:37:21 PM
Quote
Foremost we have to keep in mind that this was a real story and it happened in the life of Ibrahim and his son.. The story God explained to us inserting in Quran.. And quran is meant for guidance.. You can give one story and I can give another but only one thing happened.


Ayah 100-113 is a Narrative. Narrative is a Factual Recount. Narrative texts have to do with real-world events and time. The purposes of narrative may be to inform, to persuade and/or to correct the record, rectify the falsities gleaned by people from the Epistemology of Testimony. The main structural components of a narrative are the orientation, the complication and the resolution, and may include a concluding statement or comment in order to sum up the message.

Narrative writing uses time as its deep structure. Language features of narrative text are:

Adverb of time.

Past Tense is used except in conversations.

Time conjunction (when, then, thereat, suddenly, etc)

Specific character. The character of the episode is specific, not general.

Action verbs. A verb that shows an action.

Direct speech. It is to make the episode lively.

The vocabulary is usually everyday language, depending on the subject matter.

When we keep such basic academic points, we can watch the event in the text.

The problem is generally people are not interested in reading and interpreting Qur'an by following basic academic rules.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 29, 2019, 01:43:10 PM
peace Mazhar,


The problem is generally people are not interested in reading and interpreting Qur'an by following basic academic rules.

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Not sure if you are referring to my view but please state your strongest objection to the article, and please keep it clear, concise and evidenced, thanks.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2019, 02:08:44 PM
peace Mazhar,

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Not sure if you are referring to my view but please state your strongest objection to the article, and please keep it clear, concise and evidenced, thanks.


Please see "generally".

By the way what precisely is your view on Ayah 100-113, a synopsis pl.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 30, 2019, 01:14:35 AM

By the way what precisely is your view on Ayah 100-113, a synopsis pl.

In my article I helpfully provide a short summary:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote:
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 30, 2019, 01:23:10 AM
In my article I helpfully provide a short summary:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote:
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.

What is it so strong to support your claim while requesting to bring strong proof to negate… I am one of those who negate since your claim is below par… let everyone know humbly what is the strongest evidence in your entire claim that is incontrovertibly truthful….when negated you better bring the strongest to still go in line with you thought… I don’t perceive anything.. I am not against you personally Mr. Waqas… I am someone who takes the truth regardless of who presents it… You have tried out at the expense of  ironing out the appalling image Prophet Ibrahim represent by accepting he almost slaughtered his own son… But that was the case… May be personally for you it doesn’t digest that something of that nature do exist in quran… But Ibrahim had a different character.. one of the rarest of those… that’s why I consider in my liking as the best… another example is demolishing all statues of gods… that’s too much… that’s his character…

At least observe some of the stories presented in the same chapter with such identical phrases.. “” Thus (We) reward the Good-doers “” ~~~~~ “ We left for him among later generations”” ~~~~~

These are regular typical phrases used in this chapter not only for Ibrahim’s story… and in my understanding I see the stories are Ddelivering the messengers + the people from some Great Disasters (either from God’s side or peoples’ or even self – all three involved)… after saving from such disaster God uses the above phrases here and there…very fair comments above are… Aren’t they?

Even .. in the same stories Ibrahim has got two stories apart from the topic.. that is Ibrahim being put in fire and he was delivered / saved from that great disaster… Your story doesn’t tally with the flow of Quranic intent.. Is it?

I advise you Mr. Waqas… leave every positive thoughts and go back to zero and read the chapter again.. and let us know…. And if still you are satisfied…. Then you must have that strongest evidence you yourself found… up to you…. Remember your view or our view should never misguide anyone directly or indirectly… pls explore more for the sake of truth…. May be your further research may convince every one of us or you may turn to otherwise… Believers won’t feel shy to accept the truth even the one they argued previously against / for it… Honestly with all evidences in the very chapter 037,, I don’t see any other than slaughter… It may be the understanding of conventional Muslims, but that’s harmless… No slaughtering of animal is at all involved in the verses as conventional claim..…. thank you for reading…
Don't Rush .... take your time... i know you are an asset to this forum... you have depth knowledge...

Peace...****let truth overcome and May God guide us with quran's immaculate / unblemished meaning...****
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on September 30, 2019, 02:25:20 AM
In my article I helpfully provide a short summary:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote:
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.

I had read it in the link. I wanted you give a second thought and rephrase it since this conclusion suffers ambiguity. It shows as if the person was being tested in his ability about interpretation of dreams.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on September 30, 2019, 07:12:57 AM
peace jkhan,

If you prefer, we can have a separate thread (linked to from this thread) to pit my understanding Vs yours (which I assume is the common understanding), and we can raise, lets say, 10 points/questions each for the other to respond to, then at the end we can summarise our debate. It's possible readers may find this helpful.
As a side note, I do find your posts verbose, so it would be nice to have concise points/questions in such a debate.

peace Mazhar,
If that is your interpretation of what I wrote, each to their own. Clearly in my short summary, I not only mention they understood the correct meaning/significance of the dream but Abraham also followed through in action, thus it is not all about having the correct interpretation.
Again, I ask, if you have some clear/strong/evidenced objection to anything in the article please bring forth your strongest example so I/we can weigh it up.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on September 30, 2019, 08:02:26 AM
peace jkhan,

If you prefer, we can have a separate thread (linked to from this thread) to pit my understanding Vs yours (which I assume is the common understanding), and we can raise, lets say, 10 points/questions each for the other to respond to, then at the end we can summarise our debate. It's possible readers may find this helpful.
As a side note, I do find your posts verbose, so it would be nice to have concise points/questions in such a debate.

peace Mazhar,
If that is your interpretation of what I wrote, each to their own. Clearly in my short summary, I not only mention they understood the correct meaning/significance of the dream but Abraham also followed through in action, thus it is not all about having the correct interpretation.
Again, I ask, if you have some clear/strong/evidenced objection to anything in the article please bring forth your strongest example so I/we can weigh it up.

1. What they had thought the correct meaning of the dream?
2. What Abraham followed in action?

What was the sequence of these two? Which one was the first>
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 30, 2019, 09:17:47 AM
Brother Waqas ....
I agree to your request... Let truth prevail...  One is conventional understanding and others is your interesting new research... If anyone have any other thought let them put to discuss...
Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on September 30, 2019, 10:24:40 AM


At least observe some of the stories presented in the same chapter with such identical phrases.. “” Thus (We) reward the Good-doers “” ~~~~~ “ We left for him among later generations”” ~~~~~

These are regular typical phrases used in this chapter not only for Ibrahim’s story… and in my understanding I see the stories are Ddelivering the messengers + the people from some Great Disasters (either from God’s side or peoples’ or even self – all three involved)… after saving from such disaster God uses the above phrases here and there…very fair comments above are… Aren’t they?

Even .. in the same stories Ibrahim has got two stories apart from the topic.. that is Ibrahim being put in fire and he was delivered / saved from that great disaster… Your story doesn’t tally with the flow of Quranic intent.. Is it?

Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30) (First and last post)
Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on September 30, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30) (First and last post)
Peace

Salam Brother Iyyaka....

I was out of action for last 6 to 7 months with freeminds... so i missed many... I read only very significant topics.. this is important... i will go through.. thank you for sharing ...

Peace Brother Waqas…

You emphasized that word Manam astonished you and it is literal not mandatory interpretation…. While Al Ru’ya need further elaboration… Only two places real Manam (i.e. dream) occurs.. one is pertinent to caption and only other occasion is the dream of Prophet Mohamed 8:43.. I am afraid you got it erroneous…My simple question is; any of the Quran explained Manam or Ru’ya Literal? All the Ru’ya needed interpretation (that we comply) and no such Ru’ya was a command even the dream of the King of Yousuf saw … Was it a command?.. it was a good sign… No Ru’ya was Literal (simply explaining no one took the dream as in it’s own nature, like Ibrahim took) Got it??..
Now lets turn to Manam… out of two one is Mohamed’s dream… which God says … Allah showed it to Mohamed (all quranic dreams Allah showed… that’s why they were interpreted and it happened)… So these dreams in fact from God.. Question is, was it a command? … Was it LITERAL ? YES or NO… No.. the dream was not a command neither Literal…coz what Mohamed was shown is something and what in the end happened is different … so it can’t be literal… Mohamed didn’t perceive the dream as literal and didn’t take any action to increase the numbers according to dream..…

Why exception to Ibrahim’s dream? Why his dream literal ? since he is the only person who took either manam or Ru’ya as literal….that’s his disastrous decision which in the end Favored and delivered since he was a muhsinun (good doer) and not always God would do such to every good doer…Remember non of the human being is commanded in quran to take any of our dream as literal… we will have no clue what the dreams are all about since we don’t have true interpreters of them… but we may at one point of time may come to know what was the meaning of such and such with the time if it happens..

No COMMANDMENT through dreams be it Manam or Ru’ya… God’s system will not change that’s common to any messenger….

17:77 [That is Our] established way (Sunnah) for those We had sent before you of Our Messengers; and you will not find in Our way any alteration.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 01, 2019, 01:25:45 AM
peace jkhan,

In your above post you asked 7 questions (i.e. question mark at end of sentence). I kindly ask you to come up with 10 questions and number them, then present them. Each question should contain one point/issue. As I mentioned before, please try and be clear and concise.

I was thinking if it's simply a matter of each of us listing 10 questions, then we respond, then summarising, I guess we could contain it in this thread. The original reason I suggested a separate thread (albeit linked from this one) was not to clutter this thread. I will work on my 10 questions and present them here shortly, GW.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mohammed. on October 06, 2019, 08:04:45 AM
salaam all,

37:105 “…Indeed like thus We reward the righteous/good-doers.”
I think the reward mentioned here is the call of approval/acknowledgement/appreciation from God (such a call from the creator itself is a great reward that lasts the whole lifetime).

This story reminds us, whatever thing that we have here is not ours -our life, happiness, partner, children, wealth etc. everything is only because of God.
Enjoy life without exceeding the limit. We should never forget what we are. And the creator is able, to give us much higher levels/means of satisfaction/happiness.

“The life of this world is not except the deceit's/temptation's enjoyment” -3:185, 8:28, 6:32, 3:14, 4:77 etc.
Abraham knew this. He was a muslim.

Life is simple & interesting, for those who are certain about their creator.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 07, 2019, 09:21:02 AM
peace jkhan, all,

First set of 5 out of 10 questions:

With regard to your understanding (which is similar to the common/traditional understanding):

1) what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him? [37:102]

2) when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.

3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC
Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(37:102:21)

4) can you provide a classical arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=tll#(37:103:3) 

5) can you provide some examples elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 07, 2019, 09:17:45 PM
Dear Brother Waqas….

Let me correct you about my personal belief and understanding compared with Conventional Belief…
~~~~ Dream was from God and Ibrahim CONFIRMED it  and attempted to SLAUGHTER HIS SON (accepted as Ismail), as they both adjudged the dream as downright COMMAND from God to accomplish…. God Accepted it and STOPPED it by REPLACING with an ANIMAL SACRIFICE (Slaughter) and Ibrahim was rewarded coz he CONFIRMED the Dream and REWARDED coz Animal slaughtering was brought into religion as  rites to be practiced.. That practice continues for ages now…~~~~
This is my conventional understanding learned from society verbally and that was accepted in our society as of my knowledge…

But My Quranic Understanding is UTTERLY unique to above other than what is in actual fact written in Quran.. I anticipate you are transparent of my comprehension if you have time to read my threads in this very caption……It’s not similar… though I accept what Ibrahim attempted was to slaughter his son which resembles the conventional acceptance not coz they accept but that’s what I possess with my current knowledge (how many quranic meaning to date we resemble with conventional understanding, that’s harmless)..But there is big day light between my understanding and conventional concocted stories which have no apparent evidence in the verses of Quran…
Pls answer to my questions in my previous threads to answer your 05 set of queries out of 10 meaningfully…God Will! I respond to your questions asap.. Dear other members you are most welcome to give your thoughts and responses to Brother Waqas’s questions and it is not confined between me and Waqas…Pls be with Quran and your most up to date understanding merely… Aim is to clarify and to resort to grasp the ultimate very meaning of the verses…

I need clarification..and not confusion….

~~~~why need ambiguity while quran itself claim it is not ambiguous~~~~
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 07, 2019, 10:20:19 PM
peace jkhan, all,

4) can you provide a classical arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=tll#(37:103:3) 
Salam Wakas and all,

Just NO (in red above).
you raise some points with which I agree but we will not understand this passage as long as the Muslims will believe that the root TLL, in its first and Semitic sense, means: throw down / make one prostrate / wrestle them down etc. It is a lexical entry that aims to allow to stick to the official story.
I have already explained its meaning in other posts.

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 10, 2019, 08:32:10 AM
peace jkhan, all,

In case I was not clear, let me clarify. I will not answer any of your questions unless they are numbered. Please bring your 10 strongest questions/objections, and I will bring mine, so readers can weigh up the evidence and make up their own minds.

Original article: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

First 5 questions (out of 10): https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426798#msg426798

6) can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in intention only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically they haven't confirmed it yet, i.e. it is intention only.

7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?

9) If you consider killing of an innocent child an evil act and you consider God was simply testing Abraham but was always going to stop him before he actually did it, is there any other example similar to this in Quran (i.e. God commanding or condoning an evil act)? 

10) how do you reconcile Moses objecting to the killing of an innocent boy [18:74] whereas Abraham and his son did not?
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 10, 2019, 08:54:12 PM
Peace Waqas… and the rest..

I wish, had you answered my questions though they are not numbered… But I won’t beg..As you prefer.. no compulsion.. Let me answer one by one in convenient time not to complicate anyone.. And this seems debate will go on…pls others participate....for the sake of clarification.. who knows to whom God has given the understanding pure and still keep silent..

QUESTION NO. 10 : in fact 18:74 is entirely a different scenario to what Abrahim and his son’s story presented in quran with much limited verses…

The boy which was killed by the companion of Mosa, God interpreted to us saying the boy will become a tyrant and will be a huge impact to parents in the future.. though it didn’t happen in reality though judge based on reality (i.e. what we did)… But God knows future and the character of each soul coz He is the Creator of even a soul…He knows to answer to that boy when resurrected..That’s God’s part..
But Ibrahim’s case Killing or sacrifice didn’t in fact take place, for Ibrahim to claim AFTERWARDS such as “why did I do this” etc etc.. Mosa said AFTERWARDS, I mean after killing the boy and not BEFORE…In addition to that, Abraham merely saw a dream and he himself interpreted literally and stepped into business.. But What Mosa saw was real incidents which Mosa needed further interpretation though he was eyewitness to all incidents..
Mosa’s anger and claim as pure human being within the frame of what he was taught by God through His book is absolutely fine… Coz no one is authorized to kill another human being unless to certain condition…But Mosa’s companion on that Journey knew extraordinary concealed aspects of current and future incidents which normally a messenger won’t possess… God claim he was a pure … 18:65-66 “And they found a SERVANT from among Our SERVANTS to whom we had given MERCY from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] KNOWLEDGE. Moses said to him, "May I follow you on [the condition] that you TEACH me from WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT of sound judgment?" unfortunately Musa was not given that knowledge..

So, the incredible person is purely taught by God and would act according to what he was taught… I prefer you compare this intelligent person with Prophet Yousuf… He was taught of interpretation… How many, we have no idea.. God explained only a few.. But we can assume he would have interpreted a many that’s why he was taught.. He can’t keep away when his people query about their dreams while he was given the authority and knowledge to do so…

In the same manner Mosa’s Companion or rather Teacher has been blessed and he was one of those Servants of many whom Allah merciful and taught knowledge(significant coz even Musa not given)…. So with his impeccable knowledge he did what he did, even to the extent of killing a boy who was innocent TO THAT POINT.. But being a Messenger whom even God directly spoke to did not know what Teacher knew.. So Mosa was limited… Why can’t we assume Ibrahim was limited with knowledge of future unless he was manifestly informed through an Angel Messenger… Then only He can take that as COMMAND… but this incredible person never waited for any command from God to kill in fact an innocent boy …He didn’t see dreams to act… He acted with what he was taught.. Not even asked the INNOCENT BOY or PARENTS like Abrahim asked his Son.. Do you see the difference…coz Ibrahim was confused…
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 11, 2019, 04:00:19 AM
QUESTION NO. 09 :

07:28 “ …." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order IMMORALITY. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
4:22  “ …….. ……. Indeed, it was an immorality and HATEFUL [to Allah] and was EVIL AS A WAY.


The reason I presented above random verses out of many to represent what in fact Allah doesn’t like … Allah doesn’t like Immorality, Hatful things, and Evil ways…
So, we can naturally deduce that Allah WOULDN’T COMMAND Evil, Immoral, Hateful act…… Killing a son is manifestly Evil, Immoral, Hateful act on anyone’s sight, unless for just reason …Dreams are from God according to Quran… don’t they… But are the dreams(words used Mana/Ru’ya) literal in any of those occasion? NO..refute with quranic support..(I explained in previous threads)
If in fact Allah doesn’t like evil and killing is obviously unethical, Then why did Allah show the dream which prompted Ibrahim to commit a disaster?..Is God Culprit or Ibrahim? Lets see.. we are human and no difference to Ibrahim as human other than his quality… so we see dreams… don’t we? Can we act upon it LITERALLY… No.. that’s suicidal and simply crazy… according to number of dreams I have seen in my life…if I act based on that with explicit or LITERAL picture of the dream… but who has power to show us dreams? Allah… But all dreams are not to be taken as part and parcel of our life to act upon it (no instruction from God). To act we have book/s God revealed and God gifted perception..But  some dream/s may give you a sign, foretelling, and mostly would be untraceable without we take any action on them… Ibrahim would have seen many a dreams before and after this particular dream… would he have taken any action on them… simply like us…He was a human.. that’s what messengers said, “”we are human like you””… I wonder.. Most dreams we don’t even remember what we saw last night…
According to quran, None of those who saw the dream knew what was it till it was interpreted…None was even capable enough to interpret the kings dream except yousuf even though king questioned those who surrounded him..King didn’t ask all the dreams but only ONE…. None has capacity…though people interpret… no verification… it will be just blind acceptation (Coz it needs teaching from God, that makes huge difference).. but not in the case of Yousuf…He was taught…When ? probably when he was matured…He saw a dream when he was a kid… He didn’t know what was it only referring to his father, but he didn’t interpret anything to him… But Yousuf remembered the dream for his life time…. In the end Yousuf explained to his father when his dream came true after ages,… not the literal… So, his father being a prophet knew it from Yousuf (Specialist of Interpreting dreams)… looking at the numbers in dream (11 stars and sun and moon, even yousuf’s brothers would have guessed something had yousuf disclosed) but exact picture is given to Yousuf…

Ibrahim was instant and gullible..Problem with Ibrahim is coz he took it as COMMAND and LITERAL without any command from God while no dream is literal, and he discarded fact that God would never order IMMORAL / HATEFUL / EVIL acts….He took a dream real which needed to be put junk… (note :Mosa being a Messenger (so did Ibrahim) said while the boy was killed and it was Evil, but Ibrahim forgot that killing is Evil and blinded and believed the dream in its literal aspect and attempted, contrasting difference)That is an advice to all believers that we can’t take dreams literally and apply to our lives hoping that God speaks to us… but still God indicates to us that God only has the power to show dreams and some dreams are meaningful if it is interpreted correctly(while God’s book/s are still being interpreted in various ways, how to interpret dreams)… No dreams are COMMANDS of God.. that’s the other advice by this story..
Further… God didn’t test Ibrahim with the dream itself… But Ibrahim took the dream and believed literal and attempted to implement and that became TEST on Ibrahim personally coz of his own decision at his own will…(Allah only showed the dream as he shows to anyone) And that is good advices to all believers not to take dreams literal and act upon it even you see any dreams (but act on interpretation is fine.. but whom to trust)… If we take dream literal and act upon it, then we would most probably go against quranic commands….
By the way…Brother Waqas…As you may aware,,, Innocent in our eyes and innocent in God’s vision is different (coz we see hardly only visible part but God sees invisible part as well)… In fact Ibrahim’s son (boy) was innocent to deserve it while outstandingly he was a pure servant of God…. On the other hand What Mosa’s teacher killed is innocent as well since he was a boy who never killed another… but he was not Pure servant of God and will not be in the future like Ibrahim’s son… That God’s invisible knowledge.. That’s why God kill babies and children in natural disaster…. Even prophet Nuh said, if you let them live, they will only beget evil bound 71:27.. So being a messenger Prophet Nuh didn’t mind babies being killed and didn’t even wanted them to beget..Coz evil is written in their destiny..
So dear.. what Ibrahim tried to kill and what Teacher killed is completely different.. Ibrahim cannot do it and God won’t allow to do it, That’s why God stopped on the spot… Coz God had different plan with the one Ibrahim tried to kill in the future…. Ibrahim cannot change the future… Future known God won’t allow Ibrahim to kill coz his son was destined by His will to live in the future and become a Messenger.. That was God’s plan.. how come Ibrahim stop God’s plan…
While God’s plan for already slain boy is to be replaced by a pure person in the future.. how then Mosa stop him being killed just claiming how you kill an innocent …

If it is meant isolation of father and son as you claim in your understanding, and was a pure command from God, why God need the command to be sent through medium of Dream? What’s the big deal in it? Will Ibrahim not going to accept, if it was sent through a messenger and do the same set of proceedings before say farewell… in any case he would have done it and that also saying “I have been commanded”… what difference it makes for us as guidance being the message from Dream rather than other ways…. By Message being through dream make Ibrahim so special in accepting and doing it? After all, his son said, “do what you are commanded” So even the message came through a messenger, his son would have said the same… Then no need all of sudden a messenger to come from God while they surrendered and ready for the act and say “O! Ibrahim, you believed the dream”… instead “O! Ibrahim you followed the Command” Come on.. does it make sense.. Messengers receive loads of commands to implement… does God always react this way when they are about to implement and further say thus rewarded…
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 11, 2019, 11:01:29 AM
I have now updated the article to include a link at the end with some test questions. [direct link (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html)]

(and in case anyone wonders questions 11-14 are not relevant for jkhan's view, they cover other viewpoints)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 11, 2019, 05:55:47 PM
Peace..
Few additional comments for question No. 9... (for blue highlights).
Moses Mother reluctantly put Mosa in the river...  To do that she received a revelation (Wahi). This was separation of Mother and infant son.. As a mother she would have taken the baby to forehead or whatever to the points she could... Needless to say about love of mothers...
Did Allah called out "O! Mother of Musa you followed our command" and thus we reward...
In my human nature what Mosa mother did was greater being suckling mother than Ibrahim did(if Ibrahim separated his son)..
Is Allah partial to admire Ibrahim while nothing is stated for Mosa mother... What Mosa mother did was mammoth risk... Is it coz she was a woman and not a Prophet....  Allah is just... Coz Ibrahim never separated his son by those verses but brutally attempted to slaughter...Allah only favored Ibrahim and delivered of disastrous slaughter
 
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 11, 2019, 11:45:25 PM
Peace...
QUESTION NO. 08
i have responded in my previous thread 55 &57 .. Pls... Refer...
dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) in QURAN is always SLAUGHTER and it befit to 37:107 as well easily ... Unless it doesn't befit we could have resorted to any other possible meaning... It is none other but SLAUGHTER... Not even SACRIFICE befit to any dhāl bā ḥā  word in my perception .. So all slaughter... . Sacrifice is kind of conventional word it has only meaning with those who sacrifice animal to Aaliha(gods) etc etc with their INTENT (that convert a slaughter to sacrifice) .. Allah doesn't need sacrifice...  If we slaughter that benefit for us... Allah orders to slaughter...We have no sacrifice but slaughter.... Had I used sacrifice only for the sake of argument....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 12, 2019, 08:48:03 PM
QUESTION NO.  07

Sahih translation.... 37:102 " ...... .....He said, "O my father, DO (af'al) as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the STEADFAST."
37:103 " And when they had both submitted and HE put HIM down upon HIS forehead,"
37:104 " We called to HIM, "O Abraham,"

Note here the DOER is  Ibrahim... His son requested Ibrahim to DO... Son will be at the receiving end.. otherwise son would have said "I would DO it as you commanded" if in fact son to leave ... Son cannot say father "do what you are commanded" while son is the one who has to execute what his father saw..
When son is not the DOER, son accepted to be patient/ STEADFAST letting the DOER to carry out his task without obstacles... If separation, then son needless to say patience coz without having patience you cant carry out long journey and loads of task (if Ibrahim intended his son to preach god's law- which dream never state)... 
Note below.. dream itself is not complete for Ibrahim to carry out either slaughter or separation ...
37:102 " ..... O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you...." sahih ..

Separate for WHOM / Slaughter for WHOM?
**Separate and send where? For what? 
** slaughter and do what?  Bury the body? Or eat the flesh?
Dream never said a word that it is "FOR ALLAH" ... clear confusion of Ibrahim..(note, Moses's mother instructed with complete picture, promising to return him and make him messenger) . Was his son a messenger to do that? Who will accept him if he was sent to a place other than his language ? If going to place spoken same language then not far.. Then why all drama? If he was already a grown man and a messenger then no need Ibrahim's dream.... His son clearly underaged...

Now.. We know,  the DOER is Ibrahim and he is the older and father... If you take "as took to his forehead to say farewell" then most suited in both of them is Ibrahim... Coz that's reasonable and most of all Doer... Acting person is Ibrahim...
Even to slaughter, Ibrahim is the doer and he would have put his son on slautering position.... (whatever "li" applies)
Now doer is Ibrahim Remember.   
Then suddenly in that posture God calls out...How?.. That's key..
""" We called out to HIM..".. Who is this him and why Him and then quote O! Ibrahim ? Coz Doer...
If separation son is the Doer... But God calls out the right person Doer who is Ibrahim before slaughter ...
If separation who in fact carried out the task? In fact son.. Coz Ibrahim just saw the dream.... But burden was on his son....
But if slaughter who carried out completely as he seen in dream?  Ibrahim.. Only son was patient and surrendered enabling father to accomplish his dream ..
Then comes the next verse.. It was MANIFEST TRIAL...
If separation for the cause of Allah, how can that be a trial manifest? They both doing a great job... Not a trial manifest (mubeen) ..

Trial coz, Ibrahim took the wrong path....trial always when we are wrong if it was self conduct.. .... And trial only to Ibrahim coz his son was innocent and followed a Messenger's request by obeying him..
Ibrahim was REWARDED not coz he attempted to slaughter,  coz of he was used to be a muhsinun (good doer).. Just coz Ibrahim got one thing wrong that also hoping that it was from God, how come God punish.... His reward was delivering his beloved son... Wasn't it a reward for a father? What could have been had he slaughtered ? To date all would be cursing him... Coz son was pure not a tyrant or destined disbeliever...
Mosa teacher we don't curse coz God speak the truth about boy...further God said it was INTENDED 18:81.. so the teacher did what God intended....
 
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 13, 2019, 08:22:09 PM
QUESTION  NO. 06

Peace…
below blue highlighted waqas's comment and question....
can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in INTENTION only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically they HAVEN'T CONFIRMED it yet, i.e. it is intention only.

You have utterly messed up what INTENTION is :&.. haven’t you?

For example … I saw while driving a matured person keeping his head on the rail track for suicide while train is getting closer… when the train approached so near someone suddenly pulled him out  with his legs and saved his life which he never wanted…His intention was to die and if not for that brave young man he would have died on the spot… it doesn’t mean suicide person didn’t carry out his intention …Intention was carried out to its maximum but not the outcome…

So, Ibrahim saw the dream and took it as command… not actually a kind of his own intention but based on dream hoping it is from Allah as a command.. So he was about to carry out the INTENTION of God in his view..
Yes.. 37:103 they both surrendered purely … (so it is perfect verb) they in fact did the (Aslama) surrendering part...
Then.. Ibrahim about to slaughter and no one would stop Ibrahim.. He carried out his dream…Didn’t he?
Now, who did in fact stop it from doing it? God… what He said? O! Ibrahim you believed the dream… Dear Waqas.. Believing part didn’t take place AFTER the SURRENDER but before Surrendering.. that’s why they surrendered and about to slaughter…
But, God comes in to picture later… When God  said O! Ibrahim… suddenly Ibrahim would have stopped … then God says.. You believed the Dream… Did Ibrahim believe at that time while God said? No… no way..No chance..

Technically they have CONFIRMED everything in advance… Only God stopped it as a mercy and rewarded.. 
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 13, 2019, 09:47:43 PM
Peace ……..

QUESTION NO. 05

Waqa's question and comments below in blue..
can you provide some examples elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.

Are you sure, is that you who asked this question…I wonder what made you to pose such a weak query….Not expected from your standard as I know of you through your articles…

REWARDS are not for the particular act stated here (whether done or not done)…. Don’t you get that… “LIKE THUS WE REWARD THE GOOD DOERS” is in the same chapter few times… Just explain for what reason they were rewarded based on the story presented in quran? For example Moses, Nuh, etc etc…. No. No.. don’t complicate... REWARD is for sheer performance good things in the life and God knew they were Muhsinun and for that precise reason they were thus rewarded coz they were in total dilemma… Wasn’t Ibrahim a Good doer (Muhsinun) … He was always…. So delivered from nasty act he completely got wrong…

Examples you ask for “like thus We reward the Doer of Good”  … okay note below.. 37:80 (Nuh) … 37:121 (Mosa, Harun) …. 37:131 (Ilyaseen)

What they in general did or what they about to do but didn’t do to deserve by a statement by GOD saying soon after “like thus We reward the Doer of Good” ? Nothing …right? But they deserve in God’s vision  coz they were pure human…
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 13, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Peace…

QUESTION NO. 04

below are Waqas's question and comments in blue..
 can you provide a classical Arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).

I am extremely sorry question No. 04 asking Dictionary reference… I don’t use dictionary, so I am unable to give you..(I beg you pardon).. I know, whoever translated would have used dictionaries in their support to give certain meaning…that’s enough for me plus pure quran..But I am not blind to accept as it is translated without verification with quranic flow and sheer meaning… it has worked out for me and continuing to do so…...
This word ( tā lām lām (ل ل ت) occurs once.. okay..but it has been translated referring dictionaries as put him down…or even take as throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle down…. Never mind.. just coz it occurs once in quran, I won’t panic….
Just look what is written in quran other than the particular word T L L… what is attached with TLL to give meaning.. what is the act to happen.. that’s important…..
Note they surrendered willingly … fine..… Surrendered for what? For slaughtering not for wandering…Once surrendered to slaughter it has to be done in its own/unique manner…no kindness can creep in while you are about to slaughter anything (coz life like us)… then you won’t be able to do… Honestly I cannot slaughter even a tiny animal… Why God says… when they are to whisk/lash the culprits not to have pity….with such atmosphere job cannot be done…
We know Ibrahim is kind (incredibly) and most of all that was his son… But,… somehow he controlled his mind to do the slaughtering … If he can come up to the slaughtering point, why can’t he throw his son down to further proceed? Is throwing down is mighty or slaughtering? How he would carry on slaughtering if he can’t even first throw him down…. Ibrahim adjusted clearly his mind…
Further… why he threw him down… probably his son’s face was covered (usual way of human slaughter) and he was unable to see where to keep his head on his own…Or though his was patient and surrendered still afraid to face… Slaughtering will take place in slaughtering manner… with kindness cannot execute..it doesn’t mean they don’t have kindness.. I never said gentle / soft willing manner as you claim ….
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 14, 2019, 05:17:51 AM
peace jkhan,

Can you clarify if you replied to the correct question in your "Question 7" comment above?

Quote
7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).

It is better to quote the question then reply, as you started to do recently, so it is clearer and easier to follow.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 14, 2019, 05:39:29 PM
peace jkhan,

Can you clarify if you replied to the correct question in your "Question 7" comment above?

It is better to quote the question then reply, as you started to do recently, so it is clearer and easier to follow.

Cope with my answers... I don't have answers beyond that for the question..
Let others decide at their own will what could've been story... I will come up with answers to your other questions within this weekend...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 14, 2019, 09:26:12 PM
QUESTION NO. 02

I added the question on top is to coz people won’t have that much of time to go back to each page to see what actually the questions are… unless they are so curious of those..

below Waqas's question and comments..

 when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.

Look brother… Keep in mind the truth…the truth is Ibrahim never said it was a COMMAND or rather “I have been COMMANDED by GOD to Slaughter you”…… and DREAM never stated it was a COMMAND… only person who used the word COMMAND was Ibrahim’s son….Why did he use it meticulously? .. He knew as a believer we are to follow commands of God being the slaves of God.. if we deny, then we are to blame ourselves..Ibrahim was a messenger but not his son to that point… So, his son needs to obey what Messenger says as a believer … coz “obeying the Messenger is obeying the God”..
But his son used a very important word(COMMAND) which ibrahim couldn’t grasp by the dream and never verified how he previously got commands (look what you see itself a confused statement like having a suggestion to God’s command) or what is the normal medium of getting commands from God.. By saying DO what you are COMMANDED is clearly an indication only the COMMAND his son was surrendering not the DREAM or IBRAHIM as person on the matters of God..…Who will command a Messenger? God.. so his son didn’t use the word to the phrase Do what you are commanded BY GOD.. Messenger should verify before presenting to the public and messenger cannot lie and should not… Suppose… Prophet receives a message.. He should verify what actually the message is and how to present it and how it came to him..(simply thoroughly understand the message and present).. Needless for son to verify coz he was a messenger ordering him (if his son pose question after question, then he is transgressing same as people of musa on the order of God before slaughter a cow)… like the true people as quran points out.. “We hear we obey”… but we don’t have to do the part of “we hear we obey” coz we don’t hear it from the Messenger, God assigned to take it AS IT IS…We are bound to verify everything, even the quran and it’s verses… Coz we have no clue unless we verify…No living Messenger who take speech of God directly and present..

That’s why his son naturally assumed it was a COMMAND… but Ibrahim didn’t verify and failed … A Messenger failing is whole community failing…That failure had to bear by his innocent son who trusted the Messenger… But, God delivered him… it would have been a very good profound advice and trial for Ibrahim in his life time not to take dreams as literal and command of God since God never authorized.... God talks in three mediums only to any human being 42:51 (unless God talk, how a command can be released to human? If not in those three mediums, then how God talk? Do you say about God what you do not know, while God emphasizes that he talks only in three ways..  Whatever the other mediums are not speech / talk of God..but signs…..Signs are not command…)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 14, 2019, 09:36:40 PM

QUESTION NO. 01

Below Waqas's question..
what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him? [37:102]

Don’t your dictionary reference/s giving the above meaning… I don’t think anything wrong in it any normal sense… with flow of previous verses..further after God telling that he was given a good news of a child when Ibrahim requested of saliheen  and then starts this verse..37:102..
No issues for me the translation..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 14, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
QUESTION NO. 03

The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC
Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(37:102:21)

Compare this verse with subject verse..

28:27 “He said, "Indeed, I wish to wed you one of these, my two daughters, on [the condition] that you serve me for eight years; but if you complete ten, it will be [as a favor] from you. And I do not wish to put you in difficulty. YOU WILL FIND ME (sa-tajidu-nī,) if Allah wills, of the righteous (Saliheen)."

37:102 " …… He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. YOU WILL FIND ME (sa-tajidu-nī,), if Allah wills, of the steadfast (Sabirieen)."

I hope my clarification and answers matches to what is written in 37:102…
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 14, 2019, 10:49:49 PM
QUESTION NO. 03

The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC
Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(37:102:21)

Compare this verse with subject verse..

28:27 “He said, "Indeed, I wish to wed you one of these, my two daughters, on [the condition] that you serve me for eight years; but if you complete ten, it will be [as a favor] from you. And I do not wish to put you in difficulty. YOU WILL FIND ME (sa-tajidu-nī,) if Allah wills, of the righteous (Saliheen)."

37:102 " …… He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. YOU WILL FIND ME (sa-tajidu-nī,), if Allah wills, of the steadfast (Sabirieen)."

I hope my clarification and answers matches to what is written in 37:102…
Salam,

Sorry to disturb you in your debate but your example (28:27) demonstrate that an action of a long-term action was taken (but not a lifetime with the use of "Sa" = near future, just a few months or years max). Allah strengthens his signs with the use of the word "sabireen" which is used for a long period..

So, sa-tajidu-nī + Sabirieen + ṣaddaqta (37:105) => long-acting action that was REALIZED/ACHIEVED from a vision.
The message is CLEAR just by using these words.
After, to everyone to accept it or not and to draw is own conclusion.

A bonus : ṣaddaqta = Verb form II express "Intensity of the verb (repetition or/and the energy in which the action is performed)."

Please let the text speaks.

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 15, 2019, 01:57:19 AM
18:69 [Moses] said, "YOU WILL FIND ME (Sa-tajidu-nī), if Allah wills, patient (Sabir), and I will not disobey you in [any] order."

Dear Iyyaka.. Peace...

Participate as much as you want in every important thread,  that’s why I requested personally everyone to participate… and use quran to explain… it’s not my forum and my topic and debate… When more and more comments positive and negative raised we come to know our opinion and our own understanding where it stands… I have learnt a lot arguing with people in any level in my life… arguing peacefully is huge weapon for augment knowledge…

But, I don’t agree with you in this point long term or short term… future is future…take the above example… for me with thorough exploration Mosa had only a short visit with how journey started and ended with a partaking.. Here also sabir (patient) is used..
Dear, these words Patient or Righteous are not merely applied for verses but it is their qualities as a believer that they apply in action …When Mose’s father-in-law said you will find me Righteous, it doesn’t mean he will be righteous in the future, he is righteous and he will, only thing mosa has to recognize it on the first day or the last day of his stay..

Dear Waqas… I have nothing more to say about your 10 questions which I intended to reply by the weekend But I am totally free today since I am attending a New International airport inauguration in northern Srilanka on 17th…  So for some work I have shifted from Colombo to Jafna but hardly any work… lol…lol…
No more comments in this topic from my side… If what I wrote are meaningful for anyone, make sure to verify with quran, and those who are negative, pls comment at your convenient time, for me to understand…
Thank you Brother Waqas being patient with me and giving me this opportunity to debate with you… let people decide with their own understanding of this topic and if possible have some support with what we discussed..
Thank you…
.
~~~~~Quran debate is not for winning or losing, but for better clarification and guidance…~~~~~
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 15, 2019, 08:19:53 AM
peace jkhan, all,
Thanks for replying. I have discussed with many people and it is common for people to simply avoid the questions so it's good to see some actual response. I did find your replies verbose so I have summarised your replies below:

1) what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him? [37:102]
Reason: in my Abraham leaving scenario, it makes perfect sense because it is telling us the son had reached a somewhat independent age, i.e. able to fend for himself.

No relevance cited.

2) when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.
You explained they (Abraham and son) took it as a command but it was not a command (or test) from God, even though you admit the dream was from God. This raises further issues such as God sending a disturbing dream to Abraham for no apparent reason.

3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Cites 28:27, which possibly works depending on how one interprets it:
1) 28:27 means Moses would marry one of his daughters and go on to fulfill the condition set ---> does not work as a qualifying comparable example
2) 28:27 means Moses would fulfill the request then after that marry a daughter ---> does work
I haven't studied it in detail to see if we can glean from Quran which is meant but the flow suggests (1) is more likely.

4) can you provide a Classical Arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TaLLa can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed.

No reference provided. Until proven otherwise, your meaning of "TaLLa" inherently implies with force and this contradicts Quran when it says they both submitted willingly.

5) can you provide an example elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." [37:105, 110] implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.

You were able to show this phrase may refer to general aspects and may not need a specific good deed to be mentioned in context, which is a fair point. Even so, it would have been nice to cement your understanding with a specific example from Quran, if such an example exists.

6) can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in intention only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically he hasn't confirmed it yet, i.e. it is intention only.
Note: perfect verbs are used thousands of times in Quran.

Claims I have misunderstood intention. No example from Quran given.

7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).
No example from Quran given.

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes: "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "

Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic: "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.

9) If you consider killing of an innocent child an evil act and you consider God was simply testing Abraham but was always going to stop him before he actually did it, is there any other example similar to this in Quran (i.e. God commanding or condoning an evil act)?
No example cited.
Jkhan quotes: "So, we can naturally deduce that Allah WOULDN’T COMMAND Evil, Immoral, Hateful act "
"Dreams are from God according to Quran… don’t they… But are the dreams(words used Mana/Ru’ya) literal in any of those occasion? NO"
"Problem with Ibrahim is coz he took it as COMMAND and LITERAL without any command from God while no dream is literal"
"Ibrahim forgot that killing is Evil and blinded and believed the dream in its literal aspect"


You admit "Yousuf (Specialist of Interpreting dreams)" but claim Abraham (and his son) were confused/wrong, despite no indication of this in Quran and bear in mind 12:6


10) how do you reconcile Moses objecting to the killing of an innocent boy [18:74] whereas Abraham and his son did not?
Jkhan quotes: "entirely different scenario", "Do you see the difference…coz Ibrahim was confused", "Just coz Ibrahim got one thing wrong", "but Ibrahim didn’t verify and failed"

#####

It seems a core difference between our understandings is that you consider Abraham (and his son) to be wrong/mistaken in this story, whereas I do not. I consider my view befitting their status in Quran. An interesting question to ponder will be does Quran always highlight when a prophet/messenger errs, because if so your view is in more trouble.

You say dream is from God AND dream is not literal, which are two of my core points so you agree with that at least.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 15, 2019, 01:24:11 PM
//You say dream is from God AND dream is not literal, which are two of my core points so you agree with that at least.//

Dreams are always ''literal'' in the meanings of actual scenes. The basis of dream interpretation is to identify important dream symbols and look for the concept. Since what object he was seeing during sleeping was that he will slaughter his son. Slaughter of a young boy is obviously not for other purposes; thereby, they interpreted it in the concept of command to sacrifice for Allah the Exalted.

Allah swt confirmed it as trial; and whatever he had done laying the son down in the manner which is the process immediately before slaughter was all that had seen in dream. He never saw having slaughtered the son. That is why Allah called upon him that you have already accomplished what you saw in the dream.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 15, 2019, 06:26:57 PM
//You say dream is from God AND dream is not literal, which are two of my core points so you agree with that at least.//

Dreams are always ''literal'' in the meanings of actual scenes. The basis of dream interpretation is to identify important dream symbols and look for the concept. Since what object he was seeing during sleeping was that he will slaughter his son. Slaughter of a young boy is obviously not for other purposes; thereby, they interpreted it in the concept of command to sacrifice for Allah the Exalted.

Allah swt confirmed it as trial; and whatever he had done laying the son down in the manner which is the process immediately before slaughter was all that had seen in dream. He never saw having slaughtered the son. That is why Allah called upon him that you have already accomplished what you saw in the dream.

Peace Big brother...

Good point "Ibrahim never saw having slaughtered his son" ...

If what you claim is within the possible frame, Then Ibrahim should have told his son "I saw in dream that I was about to slaughter" And if it is about to slaughter then there is no point of command and no need of patience and worries and surrender.. .. Ibrahim should have stopped even before God called out... He shouldn't continue beyond what he saw...
In case your argument is to say Ibrahim didn't perceive what he saw and got carried away though he saw only the sword came up to his son's neck(for argument sake) .. If God didn't stop .... He would have executed beyond what he saw...
Look.. Ibrahim didn't perceive the dream was not a command of God is fair call out of his sheer belief in God..
But claiming Ibrahim didn't know what he actually saw in dream is below average call... God directly put in Quran what Ibrahim said to his son.. He said slaughtering and not "About to slaughter" or "l saw like slaughtering you"
Then your claim has meaning...
'Slaughtering' has no other meaning other than take the life of another being... That's what Ibrahim saw...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 15, 2019, 09:44:16 PM
'Slaughtering' has no other meaning other than take the life of another being... That's what Ibrahim saw...
Salam,

Incorrect if you mean "The triliteral root dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) = slaughtering"

First, the Arabs of that time used it in expressions that did not necessarily refer to a sacrifice of being.

Second, let's look at what the Qur'an says about this word in (27:21) "[Translation made by The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)] - [Verb (form I) like in 37:102]" :
   27:20 And he inspected the birds, then said: "Why do not we see the hoopoe, is there anyone missing?"
   27:21 "I will punish him severely, or I will laādh'baḥannahu /kill? Him, or he should have a clear excuse."

Point 1:
=> Does Sulaiman, who was a prophet of Allah, slaughtering the "hoopoe" just because he was late?

Point 2:
=> In this short passage we have 3 choices dictated by Sulaiman:
(1) punish
(2) laādh'baḥannahu/Kill?
(3) excuse
Logic would be Allah to start with the strongest punishment: Kill. However, it is not the case.

The only answer that remains after analyzing these 2 points is that laādh'baḥannahu does not mean to kill/slit troat BUT "to SEPARATE from him / NO longer to SERVE ..". To make a modern analogy it's like an employee who dismiss an employee for serious misconduct ..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 15, 2019, 11:01:48 PM
Salam,

Incorrect if you mean "The triliteral root dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) = slaughtering"

First, the Arabs of that time used it in expressions that did not necessarily refer to a sacrifice of being.

Second, let's look at what the Qur'an says about this word in (27:21) "[Translation made by The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)] - [Verb (form I) like in 37:102]" :
   27:20 And he inspected the birds, then said: "Why do not we see the hoopoe, is there anyone missing?"
   27:21 "I will punish him severely, or I will laādh'baḥannahu /kill? Him, or he should have a clear excuse."

Point 1:
=> Does Sulaiman, who was a prophet of Allah, slaughtering the "hoopoe" just because he was late?

Point 2:
=> In this short passage we have 3 choices dictated by Sulaiman:
(1) punish
(2) laādh'baḥannahu/Kill?
(3) excuse
Logic would be Allah to start with the strongest punishment: Kill. However, it is not the case.

The only answer that remains after analyzing these 2 points is that laādh'baḥannahu does not mean to kill/slit troat BUT "to SEPARATE from him / NO longer to SERVE ..". To make a modern analogy it's like an employee who dismiss an employee for serious misconduct ..

Peace..
You rushed to answer…First of all, I responded to Mazhar based on his point which he was referring SLAUGHTER merely…. Not SEPARATION he was refering… So.. what is slaughter if not taking the life of another… You get me Dear Iyyaka..
And your point… Honestly very impressive…
Below your comment…

=> Does Solomon, who was a prophet of Allah, slaughtering the "hoopoe" just because he was late?

And note the above for this verse 27:21 “I will surely PUNISH him with a SEVERE punishment or SLAUGHTER him unless he brings me clear authorization."

Now, you yourself pose the your question which is “Does Solomon, who was a prophet of Allah, slaughtering the "hoopoe" just because he was late?”

Just coz HudHuda (Hoopoe) was JUST LATE, why Sulaiman should PUNISH him that also crystal clearly with (extra word-Shadeed) such a SEVERE punishment… severe punishment for an employee is firing him and not hurting him but not in sulaiman’s statement..…inside this severe punishment can be anything of HudHuda couldn’t bear (for instance… cut one wing, or sever a leg or sever wing and a leg of opposite sides or remove one eye..etc. etc.. that’s severe)…but later Sulaiman said SLAUHTER which is severe than severe punishment..(as per you SEPARATION)… Is separation SEVERE or the SEVERE PUNISHMENT? It was just a bird, Being separated from Sulaiman wont’ make any difference to it..and it was a talented one based on story… Any how the separated bird only Sulaiman was looking for with anger… shows No need permission from sulaiman to get separated…Only thing sulaiman was using his God gifted power to control them….It’s God’s wish that they serve sulaiman..

You were asking about the particle ‘SA’… … are you okay with my second example..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 16, 2019, 02:09:03 AM
Salaam,


...
8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes: "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "

Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic: "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.
...

Quote
...
The conventional understanding claims that "the great/mighty sacrifice" refers to a sacrificial animal that was exchanged/ransomed for Abraham's son, which seems odd to me, because one may ask why the sacrificial animal is described as "great/mighty", especially in comparison to the slaughter of a son. In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation.
...
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas
Could you explain what you mean by "a self-contained explanation" and what is  A and B in  the "Abraham leaving scenario"?





Salam,

Incorrect if you mean "The triliteral root dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) = slaughtering"

First, the Arabs of that time used it in expressions that did not necessarily refer to a sacrifice of being.



Peace Iyyaka,
Could you share those sources please.

-----------------------------




Sorry for this off- topic.
Other possible explanations about Solomon, jinn, shayateen, Naml, Al-Tayr, Hudhud:

Salaam,


Possible explanations:

-------1----------

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607818.msg376044#msg376044

part: The jinns of Solomon.


-------2---------

from page:

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1093&region=E3

to page:

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1105&region=E3...


-------3 ---------

https://quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/sulaiman-and-the-queen-part-i/
https://quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/sulaiman-and-the-queen-part-ii/





https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609105.0


jinn workers 34:12-13

https://www.alislam.org/quran/view/?page=1240&region=E3&CR=

https://www.alislam.org/quran/view/?page=1241&region=E3
---------


shayateen builders and divers 38:37

shayateen held in chains 38:38

https://www.alislam.org/quran/view/?page=1318&region=E3

---------


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 16, 2019, 03:51:24 AM
Dear Jkhan,

 I do not know if you're ironic with me or not (I quote you "Honestly very impressive ..." or it's my english which is too limited) but your speech would be more clear if you removed the "..." or make it a very moderate use.

Regardless, I just wanted to point out to you that the word does not always mean slaughtering and that the proof is in the Qur'an itself in 27:21. I think you would take my arguments more seriously if you correctly translated the word "aw" in 27:21 "I would surely PUNISH him with a SEVERE punishment OR SLAUGHTER him OR (not unless) he brings me clear authorization."

A remark with the word "la-uʿadhibannahu/I will surely punish him" in 27:21. the root of this word refers first to the notion of PRIVATION. Punishment or torment is the consequence of this privation. So in my example with our business world in case of serious misconduct of an employee:
(1) disciplinary layoff or demotion
(2) dismissal
(3) valid excuse

As for the use of "sa" I just wanted to say that he was expressing a near and not far future. Yes you are right "future is future"..
The root S-B-R expresses a duration, a prolonged action in time as in your last example with the journey of Moussa.
To translate by "patient" in English is incorrect because this word refers to a notion of "passivity" whereas SABR it refers to a connotation of activity, a commitment to remain firm in an action.

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 16, 2019, 05:03:47 AM
peace ibn_a,

Could you explain what you mean by "a self-contained explanation" and what is  A and B in  the "Abraham leaving scenario"?


As I mentioned previously HERE (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426688#msg426688) the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Thus, it would be either:
1) exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
2) exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.

I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote:
Quote
My view is that this is a play on words to emphasise the significance/severity of this event, i.e. Abraham was giving up his son, never to see him again, thus it is as if his son was sacrificed, lost to him forever. It is interesting to note the core meaning of the root seems to be "to split something".


It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 16, 2019, 11:04:07 AM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
New article - click HERE (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html)

Feedback welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.
Salam Wakas,

In your article you translate : "So when they both submitted and he (Abraham) brought** him (son) to*** his (Abraham's) forehead (or side of head)."
Fine to put in brackets what does not appear literally in the text.

Question: why not put in brackets the pronoun "his" (in red below)?
Indeed, It does not appear in the Quranic text.

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 16, 2019, 02:00:32 PM
Peace Big brother...

Good point "Ibrahim never saw having slaughtered his son" ...

If what you claim is within the possible frame, Then Ibrahim should have told his son "I saw in dream that I was about to slaughter" And if it is about to slaughter then there is no point of command and no need of patience and worries and surrender.. .. Ibrahim should have stopped even before God called out... He shouldn't continue beyond what he saw...
In case your argument is to say Ibrahim didn't perceive what he saw and got carried away though he saw only the sword came up to his son's neck(for argument sake) .. If God didn't stop .... He would have executed beyond what he saw...
Look.. Ibrahim didn't perceive the dream was not a command of God is fair call out of his sheer belief in God..
But claiming Ibrahim didn't know what he actually saw in dream is below average call... God directly put in Quran what Ibrahim said to his son.. He said slaughtering and not "About to slaughter" or "l saw like slaughtering you"
Then your claim has meaning...
'Slaughtering' has no other meaning other than take the life of another being... That's what Ibrahim saw...

There are two things called tense and aspect. If it were "about to" then verb is not used, instead active participle would have been used to make it current affair.

Both the verbs are imperfect indicative mood. It is not just ONE dream seen once. It is continuing happening. If that was not the case there was no need of prepositional phrase. It is future. that I will......

Dream conveys a concept. He sees laying down his son in the manner mammals are slaughtered. Both interpret it as sacrifice and move ahead. The moment he did that to slaughter, he gets the loud call that the dream already stands executed.

The son also uses passive verb in indicative mood. "Do that which your are being commanded" - telling slaughter your son as sacrifice, and assures him that in doing so he will find him coolly perseverant.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 16, 2019, 11:08:00 PM
peace,

Question: why not put in brackets the pronoun "his" (in red below)?
Indeed, It does not appear in the Quranic text.

I wasn't sure what the implication was of the word usage, i.e. "...his forehead" and/or "...the forehead" and it didn't affect the article which option was chosen, hence the translation.

Upon reviewing it just now, it seems the latter is more accurate. I have amended the article. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 17, 2019, 12:01:02 AM

Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

As I mentioned previously HERE (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426688#msg426688) the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Thus, it would be either:
1) exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
2) exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.

I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote:

It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.

Peace Wakas,

Thanks for your explanations.

I am sorry but I don't see the difference between A and  B in "your scenario".
It seems more that in "your scenario" that B is a result of A .

"your scenario":

A = his son leaving to spread the message and never see his father again.

fadaynahu / exchanged / replaced with / for a mighty / great sacrifice.

B = mighty / great sacrifice = Abraham will live for the rest of his life without his son.
 

I think there would be no need to use the word: fadaynahu / exchanged / replaced.
Wouldn't it suffice to say:  it is / was a great/ mighty sacrifice in "your scenario" ?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 17, 2019, 03:54:33 AM
peace ibn_a,

There definitely is a difference between A and B in my scenario. I would correct your example with the following:

exchange A with B...

A = him (whom the him refers to is unclear, but for sake of argument let's say it's the son which is the most common understanding)
B = mighty/great sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son

Quote
I think there would be no need to use the word: fadaynahu / exchanged / replaced.
Wouldn't it suffice to say:  it is / was a great/ mighty sacrifice in "your scenario" ?

In my scenario, yes I suppose that could have been used, however I would say that since this word is associated with slaughter to say "exchanged A with B" clarifies no son-slaughter took place, i.e. worded in a way so it cannot be taken to mean a son-slaughter took place. Also use of "exchanged", it could be argued, further cements the leaving scenario interpretation.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 17, 2019, 04:15:13 AM
peace,

I wasn't sure what the implication was of the word usage, i.e. "...his forehead" and/or "...the forehead" and it didn't affect the article which option was chosen, hence the translation.

Upon reviewing it just now, it seems the latter is more accurate. I have amended the article. Thanks.
Salam Wakas

You're welcome.
it depends In fact on whether you want to stick to the text or not and it seems to me that you have choosen a literal translation (for me it is a mandatory step, by using eventually parentheses, specially for debate).

Another question: Where do you find in classic dictionaries "to draw something to one's self" as possible translation of Arabic word "TaLLa" (root: Ta-Lam-Lam)?

Your understanding depends on it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on October 17, 2019, 06:32:34 AM
Where in the text of the Qur'an is it showed that Isma'il left Ibrahim for good?

Salaam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 17, 2019, 07:36:28 AM
peace Iyyaka,

Quote
Another question: Where do you find in classic dictionaries "to draw something to one's self" as possible translation of Arabic word "TaLLa" (root: Ta-Lam-Lam)?

Fellow moderator uq provided the meanings, see here: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609687.msg408319#msg408319
I have never known uq to be unreliable. Also the following meaning is given in DofQ "to lay one down upon one's kin" which was also discussed in the above thread. It would be nice however to know exactly which lexicon these meanings were taken from.


You previously mentioned "dhib'bin" has been used non-literally in Classical Arabic sources. Can you clarify which with quotes ideally.


#####

peace huruf,

Quote
Where in the text of the Qur'an is it showed that Isma'il left Ibrahim for good?

Nowhere AFAIK but it seems you are assuming these verses refer to Ishmael, and that it was Ishmael who left Abraham. The evidence for a family separation is found in the article and it is fairly clear:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote from article:
Quote
Many are not aware that at some point in the story of Abraham in Quran there was a family separation:
"...I have settled SOME of my progeny in an uncultivated valley..." [14:37]" i.e. they are not all in one place.
This is reinforced by the fact that Abraham and his sons Ishmael/Isaac and Jacob (grandson?) are never mentioned being together in one place. For example 2:125-128 mentions Abraham and Ishmael only when working on 'al bayt' (the shelter) and in 2:128 the dual form is used when Abraham asks "...make us both (i.e. Abraham and Ishmael) submissive...".

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 17, 2019, 12:00:01 PM
peace Iyyaka,

Fellow moderator uq provided the meanings, see here: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609687.msg408319#msg408319
I have never known uq to be unreliable. Also the following meaning is given in DofQ "to lay one down upon one's kin" which was also discussed in the above thread. It would be nice however to know exactly which lexicon these meanings were taken from.

You previously mentioned "dhib'bin" has been used non-literally in Classical Arabic sources. Can you clarify which with quotes ideally.
Salam,

Sorry i didn't find my speech ! can you send me back to the link?
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 17, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609687.msg408319#msg408319

Bro uq got back to me with the following:

Quote
1) T-L-L carries the meanings:
a) to throw someone down on their face or to wrestle them to the ground,
b) to draw something to one's self.

2) DH-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat,
c) to strangle someone/something.

I couldn't find the specific meaning for T-L-L that you mentioned (i.e. lay one down upon one's kin). I also couldn't find a non-literal meaning for DH-B-Ḥ apart from the meanings I have listed above. There could be some rhetorical function that allows the words above to be used non-literally but that would have to be justified through context and through the determination of the intended meaning of the author.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 17, 2019, 01:31:34 PM
Thank you for the link.

So as i understand no real evidence for "to draw something to one's self." for  T-L-L meaning. And i found nothing about the brother uq or something escapes me.

You said "You previously mentioned "dhib'bin" has been used non-literally in Classical Arabic sources. Can you clarify which with quotes ideally." => Can you give me the link of my own reference ? I didn't find it..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: hawk99 on October 17, 2019, 01:47:28 PM
Abraham did make a great sacrifice by separating from his son.

[14:37]  O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley
unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep
up worship; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them
and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:

Thank you good brother 


                                               :peace:

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on October 17, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Thank you for the answers, wakas and Hawk.

Is this ocasion mentionned in the aya 14.37 is tied to the so called sacrifice?

If so formwhat would you infer that boths things are tied?

Salaam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 17, 2019, 09:36:43 PM
Peace Everyone...

All I have to say the below part of the verse...

5:48 " ....... .... The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to DIFFER."

We as people who depend on Quran for guidance.. of course we DIFFER, including me compared with most of you, and there are who are having same approach of me as well... but we definitely differ. Differ either not knowing what is right from quran or out of God's misguidance or our arrogance to bend on what we know of quran..

Knowing quran on critical points in this forum is always dealt with differences of opinions that also with huge variety of Perception... I wonder we are responsible for what we explain or not...
I wonder how those people said, we hear and we obey without any variance of opinions...Quran never claims that people had difference of understanding of the quran, though there were Deniers.... Deniers and level of understanding is different...

However, saying something totally against what God has in fact revealed is huge in my perception....i waited someone to convince me within quran to grasp what actually Ibrahim saw and did... but no one convinced me... so better remain in my understanding... Further, it seems what i wrote also not convinced anyone... So, where exactly the truth is hidden.... I wish we have a living prophet... lol :whatever:

BUT, some of those who understood may be knowing exact picture of what God in fact revealed in quran.... though it is hard to convince who hold different opinion to them...we all cannot be wrong... can we? one group should be right... example ... Slaughter or Separation, what ibrahim saw? or World is stationary or Spinning? etc. etc.. I wish God put everyone to the right group since we all look for guidance....
 
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 18, 2019, 01:10:23 AM
Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

There definitely is a difference between A and B in my scenario. I would correct your example with the following:

exchange A with B...

A = him (whom the him refers to is unclear, but for sake of argument let's say it's the son which is the most common understanding)
B = mighty/great sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son

....

Peace Wakas,


In "the leaving scenario interpretation" :

Ok " difference " was not the correct word to use, what i wanted to say is: that in my opinion B is a consequence of A and not an exchange / fidya.




Quote
The conventional understanding claims that "the great/mighty sacrifice" refers to a sacrificial animal that was exchanged/ransomed for Abraham's son, which seems odd to me, because one may ask why the sacrificial animal is described as "great/mighty", especially in comparison to the slaughter of a son. In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation.
It should be noted that the pronoun "hu" (i.e. "...exchanged him...") in 37:107 is commonly taken to refer to the son, however the flow of the context suggests it refers to Abraham. In the sacrificial animal story the pronoun "hu" must refer to the son otherwise it doesn't work. In the Abraham leaving scenario it doesn't matter whom the pronoun refers to as it will work either way (i.e. separating is a mighty/great sacrifice for either Abraham or his son).

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

In "the leaving scenario interpretation" :

As you say they were both affected by the separation, so it would be a "great/mighty sacrifice" for the son and a "great/mighty sacrifice" for his father, while the Quran refers to only one person: "fadaynahu".



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 18, 2019, 02:57:00 AM
peace all,

Iyyaka,
You said this "First, the Arabs of that time used it in expressions that did not necessarily refer to a sacrifice of being." [source (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426939#msg426939)]

I am asking you for evidence.

I will ask bro uq about the source he got it from if that will satisfy you.


huruf,
There is no direct/explicit link from 14:37 to the sacrifice story.


ibn_a,
Whilst I do understand your point when you say "B is a consequence of A and not an exchange / fidya." I think this is your interpretation, for example in 2:196 we have:

...whoever from among you was A or B so/then a ransom from X or Y or Z

Note the resumption/consequential particle "fa" (so/then) above.

According to your line of reasoning X/Y/Z is a consequence of A/B thus is not a fidya, when it clearly is a fidya. So, whilst I understand your point I do not consider it strong enough to conclude it is not a fidya.

Quote
As you say they were both affected by the separation, so it would be a "great/mighty sacrifice" for the son and a "great/mighty sacrifice" for his father, while the Quran refers to only one person: "fadaynahu"

I would say that the story is about Abraham hence the singular "hu", similar to the very next verse which says "And We left upon him in the later generations" when we know the son is also mentioned in Quran so the son's story is also left for us (albeit not in as much detail as Abraham's). Again, whilst I understand your point, I do not consider it strong enough to conclude anything.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 19, 2019, 01:24:31 AM
Salaam,



....
ibn_a,
Whilst I do understand your point when you say "B is a consequence of A and not an exchange / fidya." I think this is your interpretation, for example in 2:196 we have:

...whoever from among you was A or B so/then a ransom from X or Y or Z

Note the resumption/consequential particle "fa" (so/then) above.

According to your line of reasoning X/Y/Z is a consequence of A/B thus is not a fidya, when it clearly is a fidya. So, whilst I understand your point I do not consider it strong enough to conclude it is not a fidya.

...

Peace Wakas,

I want to clarify my view on the Abraham leaving scenario interpretation and the point you raised about 2:196 if you permit.

I agree ( partially  when yous say:" According to your line of reasoning...") that in 2:196  B can also be seen as a result/consequence of A, i think that the difficulty is about the fidya, I will try to explain my understanding :


- The Abraham leaving scenario interpretation.

1) Abraham was commanded through vision to leave his son

             A. Abraham did leave his son.

             B. it was a great/mighty sacrifice (that  Abraham did by leaving his son = A), so B is
                 a result/consequence  of what he did in A ---> no need for fidya.


I can understand the sacrifice made by Abraham ( in the leaving scenario interpretation),  but do not see the fidya, and as i said previously, wouldn't it suffice to say:  it is/was a great/mighty sacrifice.



---


- The point you raised about 2:196

 https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/196/default.htm

2) People going for hajj and umrah are commanded to do hilq al-ras.

           A. they did not  hilq al-ras because of marad or adtan min ras.

           B. they fidya with siyam or sadaqa or nusuk, so B can also be seen as
               a result/consequence of what they did not in A ---> need for fidya.

-----


1) the command was executed ----> no need for fidya.

2) the command was not executed ---->  need fidya.



I will study your article more in depth and see if i can give some useful feedback and try to answer some of the points you raised here:

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html

although requires a considerable amount of time and reflection and research in the Quran and other sources.




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 19, 2019, 03:32:56 AM
Brother Waqas...

Pls without fail in sha Allah at your convenient time, answer to me why you have chosen Ish'aq in connection with this story and not Ismail... Further why after Yakub grandson and a question mark? in your article

I think if we solve who in fact was involved in this story Ismail or ish'ak and further who in fact Ibrahim did settle in the valley near God's (bait)? Ish'ak or Ismail or none of them but beyond them... Then in sha Allah undeniably can deduce what took place,  slaughter / separation / etc....
Better find out how many sons Ibrahim had according to only Quran? And who was first and second, etc...?

Further in your article You did say that Ibrahim sons never lived together but 2:132 says otherwise....

Peace...
*** only one incident took place and let's trace it ****
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 19, 2019, 04:09:36 AM
peace ibn_a,

Thanks for clarifying, however you have again misrepresented the example in this verse. Let me re-quote what I said in my previous reply to you:

Quote
I would correct your example with the following:

exchange A with B...

A = him (whom the him refers to is unclear, but for sake of argument let's say it's the son which is the most common understanding)
B = mighty/great sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son

Please pay close attention to what A is.

Quote
1) the command was executed ----> no need for fidya.

2) the command was not executed ---->  need fidya.

Normally I may agree with your observation, because its common use is as you argue, but the usage in 37:107 is unique if we pay careful attention to the Arabic:

"We exchanged him with a great sacrifice"

The parts in bold above nullify your argument. The use of "We" clearly shows God was the source of the exchange NOT the person/Abraham. This is different to the other usage of fidya (where it is the person doing fidya), and the use of "him" clarifies what was exchanged, leaving little room for movement when it comes to the interpretation.



Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 19, 2019, 04:41:16 AM
peace jkhan,

Brother Waqas...

Pls without fail in sha Allah at your convenient time, answer to me why you have chosen Ish'aq in connection with this story and not Ismail... Further why after Yakub grandson and a question mark? in your article

I think if we solve who in fact was involved in this story Ismail or ish'ak and further who in fact Ibrahim did settle in the valley near God's (bait)? Ish'ak or Ismail or none of them but beyond them... Then in sha Allah undeniably can deduce what took place,  slaughter / separation / etc....
Better find out how many sons Ibrahim had according to only Quran? And who was first and second, etc...?

Further in your article You did say that Ibrahim sons never lived together but 2:132 says otherwise....

Based on the evidence I consider Isaac to be the son in question in "the sacrifice son" story. This would make it a self contained story, and compliments 12:6. I discussed this previously also: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602123.msg273816#msg273816

You may be interested to know that majority of early Traditional scholars also considered it Isaac, and it was only later that they apparently changed their mind to Ishmael.

I'm not sure if determining which son it was would allow us to determine the meaning of the story more accurately but I guess it's possible.

I put a ? over Jacob as grandson as I wasn't sure what relation he is to Abraham exactly, in terms of Quranic evidence. If you or anyone else has evidence please share.


2:132 does not say they lived together. "bani" means descendants/progeny not just one's own direct children, but can also include grandchildren etc etc. The verse does not state Abraham told them all together, and the latter part of the verse can be attributed to Jacob, unless you have evidence to the contrary, proving it was Abraham who said it.


Also, you never responded to how your understanding fails the Arabic. Do you have an update to share?

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on October 19, 2019, 08:54:09 AM
peace jkhan,

Based on the evidence I consider Isaac to be the son in question in "the sacrifice son" story. This would make it a self contained story, and compliments 12:6. I discussed this previously also: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602123.msg273816#msg273816

You may be interested to know that majority of early Traditional scholars also considered it Isaac, and it was only later that they apparently changed their mind to Ishmael.



37.102: The son says, Do as your are commanded you will find me "min al sabiriin (of the patient)

21.85 . And (remember) Isma'il, Idris, and Zul-kifl, all (men) min as-sabiriin

No such mention is there concerning Ishaq.

Also it relates the whole event of the "sacrifice" and it is only after the whole event is related, right after it says: and We gave him the good news of Ishaq.

Agreed there is not date, but nonetheless very awkward.

Salaam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 19, 2019, 01:01:38 PM
peace huruf,

I mention both those points in the thread I linked to above.

Quote
21.85 . And (remember) Isma'il, Idris, and Zul-kifl, all (men) min as-sabiriin

No such mention is there concerning Ishaq

Are you implying only those mentioned are of as-sabiriin? Of course not.

Quote
Also it relates the whole event of the "sacrifice" and it is only after the whole event is related, right after it says: and We gave him the good news of Ishaq.

Agreed there is not date, but nonetheless very awkward.

That's what I used to think but as mentioned in the above thread a possible, and in my view likely, explanation is that the good news given was of Isaac's prophethood. This makes sense because:

1) everywhere else in Quran when it says "We gave/give good tidings..." it always tells us what the good news was.
2) everywhere else it mentions giving good news of a child it states that, i.e. good news is a son/child.
3) AFAIK they are not born a prophet, they become one later (I'd be interested to know if Quran says otherwise)
4) it could be argued it seems awkward to introduce Isaac's prophethood at the end of this unrelated story, then end the segment on Abraham, but if we take my leaving scenario it makes sense because it may be elaborating upon the reward Abraham was given, i.e. his son that he left became a prophet.


In any case it is not conclusive, and as I said I don't really see how knowing whom the son was can prove the story one way or the other. If anyone knows how it can, please share.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on October 19, 2019, 01:51:36 PM
I think it is obvious, and identifying the fact that explicitly is said min as- sabiriin. It does not mean other people are not sabiriin, but if it said of some and not of others it is because that says something significant, otherwise why is it said, to fill up space? It is mark of Isma'il to be min al sabiriin.

Good traits are said of many people and prophets, it does not mean that they have the monopoly of those good traits, but rather that they are particularly excellent in those, it is descriptive of them.

On the other hand, it does not matter what is announced for Ishaq, the point is that it seems that it is starting off with somebody else, changing the subject it is talking about.

Salaam
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 19, 2019, 05:59:18 PM
Peace....
I will definitely prove that it is Ismail in sha Allah if I am on the right track... ... Unfortunately I am stuck these days with work... This subject cannot be replied with memory of Quran but with clear research.... But I only answer for now grandson etc?....
Yakub is not Ibrahim's biological son... By verse 2:133 it, proves...
Since yakub's sons said we serve your God of your (Abaika-fathers) and chronologically stated Ibrahim Ismail and Ish'ak.... If yakub was brother of Ismail and ish'ak this verse nullifies it.... Further it is reinstated by 14:39 by Ibrahim claiming that he has two, sons...
Further nowhere in Quran gives a hint any relatives of Ibrahim between ish'ak and yakub... That proves yakub grandson...
Then comes another proof it says 11:71 with a promise from God to Ibrahim's wife after ish'ak, yakub...
We know yakub is not the son of her, it is a clear indication yakub is grandson and that also yakub should be born within her life time.. Since it was promised by God to give... If it is promised then she should see what is promised to her...
Further she was old and till the glad tiding of child came she was barren 51:29...so it shows Ismail is not her son undeniably... Coz her first child was ish'ak and promised of a grandson yakub... No connection of Ismail... It shows Ibrahim had another wife... Was it after this old age or before? In fact before..
I will respond soon... Before Friday in sha Allah..
BTW I read the previous link waqas... Why didn't you respond to the last question of brother Mazhar... You can't deny the chronology of 2:136 and 2:133 these are intentionally placed orders.. Not like simply putting messengers names... Yakub's sons were witnessing to follow and says their ancestors in right order... What else you want...
In 14:39 Ibrahim claimed he Got two sons in his OLD age... It may not mean that he got both of his sons in old age... Coz only one wife had ish'ak as we saw above.. About other wife and old age story is not stated by Allah.. Further Ibrahim would have thanked Allah for having two sons when he is old by side of him... It also shows they both were together with Ibrahim...
Further in chapter 37 it doesn't seems Ibrahim was old when he was given a glad tidings... He was put in fire and leaving ...if you read 37:83 onwards carefully you get it... (remember his people called him young before puting in fire)
I know those who hold SEPRATION won't agree to any of my comment above...
But simply answer who is Ibrahim's other wife after very old age being given a glad tiding to already to his existing wife, and still marry another woman after to have Ismail after ish'ak...? So that's worthy stated in Quran than previous wife (mother of ish'ak)... Mother of Ismail worthy stated since Ibrahim is further older in age if Ismail born later...
Pls be precise in answers...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 19, 2019, 09:27:24 PM
Peace...
Thank you for 3 members privately emailing n stating that Ismail is the only option after reading my previous  thread and mainly pointing out the typo...so, I request  Pls correct the sentence "that proves ish'ak grandson " to be read as "that proves yakub grandson " in my previous thread....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 20, 2019, 12:21:39 AM
I have edited it for you.

I find it interesting you claim proving it and those that messaged you said it can only be Ishmael when Traditional scholars have been debating it for centuries with no conclusion. I guess you must have spotted something they missed.

And I already answered Mazhar in the thread, assuming you have read it. Just like Mazhar you conveniently ignore the example I provided to the contrary AND my point in reply2 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602123.msg273831#msg273831).

I request that you team up with others and create your own thread (or you can post on the thread I linked to which discusses the chronological order) with the strongest Quranic arguments you can fathom for the order in which Abraham had children. I look forward to such a work.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: huruf on October 20, 2019, 02:14:23 AM
2.133
Nay, but you [yourselves, O children of Israel,] bear witness that when death was approaching Jacob, he said unto his sons: "Whom will you worship after I am gone?" They answered: "We will worship thy God, the God of thy forefathers Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and unto Him we surrender ourselves." (133)
2.136
Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and, their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed to Moses and Jesus; and that which has been vouchsafed to all the [other] prophets by their Sustainer: we make no distinction between any of them. And it is unto Him that we surrender ourselves." (136)

2.140
"Do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were `Jews' or `Christians'?" Say: "Do you know more than God does? And who could be more wicked than he who suppresses a testimony given to him by God? Yet God is not unmindful of what you do. (140)

3.84
Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves." (84)

4.163
BEHOLD, We have inspired thee [O Prophet] just as We inspired Noah and all the prophets after him - as We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants, including Jesus and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and as We vouchsafed unto David a book of divine wisdom; (163)
14.39:
"All praise is due to God, who has bestowed upon me, in my old age, Ishmael and Isaac! Behold, my Sustainer hears indeed all prayer:

Every time here is a mention in which both sons are mentioned and others also are mentionned, the hronological order seems to be observed, and there always comes Ismail, then Ishaq.

I am not  impressed at all by the sayings of the "majority of early Traditional scholars", right after the triumph of the prophetic mission of Muhammad, many of those scholars from the mosaic and christians fields flocked to "islam" and submerged it in their, indeed, traditional views, so all the good for placing higher their own preferred ones, although of course no need for it, prophetic revelation is above all those petty idiocies of descent and so on.
So in fact , I think we ar emuch better served if we do stick to Qur'an and let the scholars with their traditions rest in peace.

In those ayas I have quoted, a hint might e given that no chronological order is kept by simply putting Ibrahim after any of those that came after, so we would know that no chronological order is meant. But that is not so. So indeed, Ismail was already there when Ishaq came. And in this case the bible gives the truth, they must have had a different mother, which in the bible, conveniently the first one, the mother of Ismail is insignificant, while the mother of Ishaq is not.

As to those that were giftted to Ibrahim in old age, it could be understood that both of them did not come before, but that one might already have been there, and the two were only in his old age. That is, the gift of the first one was not withdrawn when he got the second one in his old age.

All the more reason for taking the events in sura 37 chronologically. One of the sons was already grown up when he got the second, and the second was the announced after the "sacrifice" event was concluded. May be indeed, the "sacrifice" was separation, Ismail would fulfil his mission at a different distination from Ibrahim, and the "exchange" got by Ibrahim for that sacrifice was the new boy, who was announced as a prophet, just like the first.

Also the narration in sura 37 is clearly chronological. It starts with Nuh and then goes on to Ibrahim and how he is in disagreement with his people and prays for a child and then leaves to go somewhere else. Chronollogy is observed throughout.

And the "min as-sabiriin part" is diagnostic if htere were at all any need for it. Two only mentions of that expresion in the whole of Qur'an one for Idriis, dhul kifl and Ismail, and another one in the "sacrifice" event. Means nothing?

Salaam   

.
 
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 20, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
Salaam,



peace ibn_a,

Thanks for clarifying, however you have again misrepresented the example in this verse. Let me re-quote what I said in my previous reply to you:



Quote

    I would correct your example with the following:

    exchange A with B...

    A = him (whom the him refers to is unclear, but for sake of argument let's say it's the son which is the most common understanding)
    B = mighty/great sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son



Please pay close attention to what A is.





Normally I may agree with your observation, because its common use is as you argue, but the usage in 37:107 is unique if we pay careful attention to the Arabic:

"We exchanged him with a great sacrifice"

The parts in bold above nullify your argument. The use of "We" clearly shows God was the source of the exchange NOT the person/Abraham. This is different to the other usage of fidya (where it is the person doing fidya), and the use of "him" clarifies what was exchanged, leaving little room for movement when it comes to the interpretation.


Peace Wakas,

Thanks for the precision, from 37:107 "Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem"  we know that God is the source of the fidya/exchange, no issue here.The issue is about what was exchanged with him Isaac/Ismael. 

"We exchanged him with a great sacrifice "

Thus, in your "Abraham leaving scenario interpetation":

WE/God    exchanged    him Isaac/Ismael    for/with    a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son.

In the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I do not see what God gave to Abraham in exchange for (leaving) Isaac/Ismael.

The sacrifice was done by Abraham when he left Isaac/Ismael , that is why I said it would suffice to say it is was a mighty sacrifice, there would bee no need to use the word fidya.

And as you said it was a great/mighty sacrifice for both,  Abraham and Isaac/Ismael, in the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", however, there is no reference to the sacrifice made by Isaac/Ismael.



Quote
....
Having said all of the above, it is not definitive that the dream was from God (as it is not explicitly stated), but there is certainly evidence implicating it was as outlined above. There is one weakness in my view and that is the use of "dhib'hin/sacrifice" (root: Dh-B-H) in 37:107.
Dh-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat
c) to strangle someone/something.
The reason for the weakness is that this root is used twice in this story (once as a verb in "I am sacrificing you" in 37:102, and then as a noun "exchanged him with a great sacrifice" in 37:107, and this word is always used to mean a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill in Quran. The first use in 37:102 can be easily explained away as this is what he literally saw in his dream, so to take the literal meaning in 37:102 makes sense, but to take it literally in 37:107 is problematic because the "great sacrifice" in 37:107 was not a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill. However, it should be noted that the noun form "dhib'bin" in 37:107 is only used once in the entire Quran.
My view is that this is a play on words to emphasise the significance/severity of this deed, i.e. Abraham was giving up his son, never to see him again, thus it is as if his son was sacrificed, lost to him forever. It is interesting to note the core meaning of the root seems to be "to split something".
I have noted The Quran use play on words before but I never noted down the instances for future reference. Some that come to mind are Chapter 111, and the use of "cast" in 20:70. If anyone knows of other possible examples please let me know.
...
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html


By your own standard (no offence intended), shouldn't there be in the Quran at least one meaning of DBH that could support your interpretation of 37:107  before you conclude?

You resolve this issue by saying: "that this is a play on words to emphasise the significance/severity of this deed ... ". is this strong enough to validate your interpretation?




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 20, 2019, 09:56:40 AM
peace all,
Iyyaka,
You said this "First, the Arabs of that time used it in expressions that did not necessarily refer to a sacrifice of being." [source (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426939#msg426939)]
I am asking you for evidence.
I will ask bro uq about the source he got it from if that will satisfy you.
Salam Wakas,

Point 1 :
Sorry i didn't find the reference but here the expression i have noticed :

     ذَبَحَتْہُ الْعَبْرَة (zabahatul abrah): tears choked him.

Point 2 :
you quoted :
1) T-L-L carries the meanings:
   a) to throw someone down on their face or to wrestle them to the ground,
   b) to draw something to one's self.

Did u look at my previous post about the meaning of the root T-L-L or you ignore them ?

Peace
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 20, 2019, 12:37:06 PM
peace ibn_a,

No offence taken. In fact, I like the way you present the counter argument.

You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough. If you're claiming it cannot be a fidya then that is a different matter. If it is the latter I have not seen you present sufficient Quranic evidence for this stance.

By your own standard (no offence intended), shouldn't there be in the Quran at least one meaning of DBH that could support your interpretation of 37:107  before you conclude?

You resolve this issue by saying: "that this is a play on words to emphasise the significance/severity of this deed ... ". is this strong enough to validate your interpretation?


The noun dhib'hin is only used once in Quran. I consider my take on it strong enough to allow for the possibility. I never said anywhere that my interpretation is validated by this or any other point. Please pay careful attention to my words.

As I said on this thread, I considered the various options, and found the view presented in my article to be the most cogent (i.e. has the least number of issues). If you disagree please let us know your view so we can weigh them up.



Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 21, 2019, 01:14:43 AM
Peace...

Anyone is welcome to prove that Is’haq was the first son of Ibrahim… And Second Son was Ismail… My reply # 125 coupled with responses given by Mazhar and Huruf (which I read so meticulously) has much concrete support for Ismail to be the First Son of Ibrahim….
Prove that Is’haq was the first son within quran or negate my question in reply # 125 with logic and quran…

If anyone claim that Ibrahim did marry in very old age again even after God’s glad tidings of Is’haq and after that Yaqub (grandson) then it is irrational thought concocting against Ibrahim…for which there is no support.. Coz.. the message was not only to the old wife of Ibrahim but also to Ibrahim himself…so, there is no point of God’s Messengers revealing the message saying Glad tidings of Is’haq and after that Yaqub while Ismail is still pending before grandson’s glad tiding.. That proves Ismail is first….That suits if Ismail was born well before and to another wife

If those who claim that separation took place and not slaughtering according to verse 37:100 -113 then,  first prove who the son is…. If the son who involved in slaughter story was Ismail to be precise then it is very convenient to prove to anyone who is thorough in quran that it was not SEPARATION….That’s why Waqas knowingly commented that it is not impossible… his comment “”I'm not sure if determining which son it was would allow us to determine the meaning of the story more accurately but I guess it's possible.”
Brother Waqas,  pls don’t drag the scholars into this subject… I never hate scholars and I never follow them either… I have no time to trace what they did for centuries or millennium and what they followed and what their source (quran or hadith), PhDs etc.. … while I have loads of thing to learn in quran for my verification and salvation….and my guide is Allah though I don’t know current Arabic how to speak it… But I guess I have not failed the Arabic of quran which I don’t need to speak, but only to understand it if God (Author) backs me…who is better than the author?
To wind up, I only request those who hold the view of SEPARATION in this topic which Waqas initiated to find out who is Ibrahim’s first son if not possible who the son involved in Slaughter story…I myself and those who probably claim Ismail to be the elder son,  I guess have given more than enough conclusive evidences with clarity if you read carefully what we have written….
But those who claim Is’haq the one involved in this famous story has not given any tangible evidence to substantiate it rather claiming separation merely not knowing who the son was…
My key point in future to prove is…. Did Allah ever choose any messenger who is very very old in age to carry out his messages and actions while neglecting the messenger’s youth…. Impossible..simply impossible and meaningless….we don’t see that in quran…

God may guide us...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 21, 2019, 03:24:33 AM
peace jkhan,

As I suggested before:
Quote
I request that you team up with others and create your own thread (or you can post on the thread I linked to which discusses the chronological order) with the strongest Quranic arguments you can fathom for the order in which Abraham had children. I look forward to such a work.

You said:
Quote
If those who claim that separation took place and not slaughtering according to verse 37:100 -113 then,  first prove who the son is…. If the son who involved in slaughter story was Ismail to be precise then it is very convenient to prove to anyone who is thorough in quran that it was not SEPARATION….

Please provide the evidence/logic for your claim in bold.
 
You said:
Quote
That’s why Waqas knowingly commented that it is not impossible

Unlike others, I try not to use absolutist language, or claim my arguments are "conclusive" etc. I am very careful about my wording. Of course to the outsider/reader things can appear different to what they are: see the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 21, 2019, 03:33:19 AM
peace jkhan,


2:132 does not say they lived together. "bani" means descendants/progeny not just one's own direct children, but can also include grandchildren etc etc. The verse does not state Abraham told them all together, and the latter part of the verse can be attributed to Jacob, unless you have evidence to the contrary, proving it was Abraham who said it.


Peace Waqas….
You were asking evidence for 2:132 when I said Ibrahim’s sons lived together to get the message of Ibrahim as stated in 2:132…. I know (Banee) not own sons….I guess you claim as most of the others, the statement could be even from Yakub…. But I researched and my mind lean towards Ibrahim only…
First.. Ibrahim is mentioned in the verse beginning as he Enjoined..
2:132 “And Abraham INSTRUCTED/ENJOINED his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion(Deen), so do not die except while you are Muslims."
Second, in the Banee (there could be Ismail, is’haq and their sons + Specially Yakub since he could be the first Messenger of grandson so God specified Yakub)… it is not the direct speech of Ibrahim but God says Ibrahim instructed and God added Yakub and highlighted to make us know in that group Yakub also was present..
Then the direct speech comes from Ibrahim as “O my sons” which include all his sons and grand, if great grand in case…

But point here what is the statement…. “ …. Indeed, Allah has CHOSEN (ASTHAFA)….” This word is so crucial …. In my view and deep understanding, this cannot be said by Yakub.. coz.. Yakub is not the initiator of this DEEN, but Ibrahim…everything came to Ibrahim and what Yakub has to do is to spread and preach…. Yakub is not in a position to say his sons (all) that Allah has CHOSEN as if it has come to him in the first place…CHOSEN could only be said by IBRAHIM… coz it was given to Ibrahim and the DEEN was chosen with it’s complete manner from Ibrahim..That’s why Ibrahim said Allah has Chosen.. If you refer all CHOSEN words in quran you will get a hint..
Yakub’s statement comes later in the next verse 2:133 with word “Or”… that’s so manifest, that yakub has not said the both statement..…Analyze it and let me know.. even anyone pls..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 21, 2019, 08:36:45 AM
Peace everyone ....

This thread is just additional comments.... Hope would be useful...

I don't prefer the translation of forefathers merely for (Aabaai) but simply fathers(brothers of fathers as well ) ... Be one's own father or grand or great and beyond with extra word of awwaleen.... Same to Banee as sons, could be own son or grand or great... And on n on... Correct me... Coz I find in 12:38 Yousuf mentions Ibrahim Is'haq and Yakub as Aabaai...in fact Yakub is not his forefather... But father... If otherwise prove pls..

****
Did you notice strangely why Yousuf omitted Ismail in Aabaai list in 12:38....at the same time, 2:133 Yakub was very old and nearing death and sons (banee) told including Ismail as their Aabaai.... Doesn't it prove that in that banee group, grand sons of Ismail also could have been with sons and grand sons of yakub since he was so old near to die... . It indicates Ismail's sons not prophets or highlighted by Allah while Is'haq and his son yakub and then Yousuf and decendants are much emphasized...

Does it hint that Ismail was born to a slave woman much earlier as history of Arabs or Christians or Jews? But Allah gave priority in giving even at later age Is'haq to his genuine wife..  Allah does distinguish even in marriage,etc pure freeman and slaves.. Doesn't He? ...wouldn't there be difference in that society while having a child to someone's own wife and of those slaves who are married to masters... It will..... I think it makes sense... Not to judge the quality of a person but status in society that existed that goes long way in accepting a prophet in such corrupted societies... .. For whatever the reasons(if not slave) Allah continued with one wife's (the one mentioned in Quran) children prohpet after prophet while no mention of anything of Ismail's decendants... Though Ibrahim solicited in one of the duas 2:128 while he was with Ismail..(to solicit for offspring by Ibrahim,  Ismail should have been married probably while raising the first house).. Don't think Ibrahim had shown difference to his two sons but God has clearly preferred the old wife and her kids... Having to talk with angels itself a blessing on her when they came with glad tiding... . Mentioning of her itself in Quran also  a sign..
Yousuf omitted Ismail in (12:38) with knowledge and rightly.... coz.. Ismail is not in that chronology... Perfectly said by Yousuf... Which is Ibrahim <Is'haq <Yakub they were Yousuf's Great, grand and father respectively...Ismail was only Yousuf's forefther but not direct. When their own people say chronologically it is dependable that too by a prophet.. .. Like in 2:133, 14:39etc...but if God says in His own in different way that is something else which need research.... For example Davud after Sulaiman.... What is hidden in them we still need to dig... But as Mazhar n Huruf pointed out whenever Ismail and Is'haq is mentioned side by side, always Ismail appears first... That's not by mistake or by chance ... Also whenever Ibrahim Ismail Is'haq Yakub and decendants are mentioned that also in order...
In addition to that,  matter of sabireen.    If  specifically stated only to one group of messengers then it must have particular meaning why... God doesn't need to extra praise few of the messengers if they don't have that quality extraordinarily abundantly.   For example... Was musa sabireen though musa himself claim?  We find he failed with his teacher and musa killed a person and threw the tablet etc... Clearly he was not sabireen but he would have been in most of his life.   But to label and give a unique merit by God Himself, does he deserve?  No.     But whoever given by God deserved... Ismail in fact sabireen to obey his father and face the slaughter need extra patience.... without cross questioning anything from Ibrahim ... Every detailed prophets in Quran you would find not sabireen at least in one occasion.. If we research.. Including Ibrahim...

May Allah guide n bless us to understand His book...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 21, 2019, 09:05:36 AM
Peace Waqas….
You were asking evidence for 2:132 when I said Ibrahim’s sons lived together to get the message of Ibrahim as stated in 2:132…. I know (Banee) not own sons….I guess you claim as most of the others, the statement could be even from Yakub…. But I researched and my mind lean towards Ibrahim only…
First.. Ibrahim is mentioned in the verse beginning as he Enjoined..
2:132 “And Abraham INSTRUCTED/ENJOINED his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion(Deen), so do not die except while you are Muslims."
Second, in the Banee (there could be Ismail, is’haq and their sons + Specially Yakub since he could be the first Messenger of grandson so God specified Yakub)… it is not the direct speech of Ibrahim but God says Ibrahim instructed and God added Yakub and highlighted to make us know in that group Yakub also was present..
Then the direct speech comes from Ibrahim as “O my sons” which include all his sons and grand, if great grand in case…

But point here what is the statement…. “ …. Indeed, Allah has CHOSEN (ASTHAFA)….” This word is so crucial …. In my view and deep understanding, this cannot be said by Yakub.. coz.. Yakub is not the initiator of this DEEN, but Ibrahim…everything came to Ibrahim and what Yakub has to do is to spread and preach…. Yakub is not in a position to say his sons (all) that Allah has CHOSEN as if it has come to him in the first place…CHOSEN could only be said by IBRAHIM… coz it was given to Ibrahim and the DEEN was chosen with it’s complete manner from Ibrahim..That’s why Ibrahim said Allah has Chosen.. If you refer all CHOSEN words in quran you will get a hint..
Yakub’s statement comes later in the next verse 2:133 with word “Or”… that’s so manifest, that yakub has not said the both statement..…Analyze it and let me know.. even anyone pls..


وَوَصَّىٰ بِـهَآ إِبْرَٟهِـۦمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ

And Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and likewise Ya'qoob [alai'his'slaam] bound his Sons with this legacy.

يَٟبَنِىَّ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ٱصْطَفَىٰ لَـكُـمُ ٱلدِّينَ

"O my sons! Allah the Exalted has graciously chosen the Constitution-Code of Conduct for you people.

فَلَا تَمُوتُنَّ إِلَّا وَأَنتُـم مُّسْلِمُونَ .2:132١٣٢

Therefore, you should not die except being conscious followers of Code-Islam: submission to the discipline establishing state of peace, security, tranquillity, harmony and dynamic balance for all." [2:132]

The First sentence is compound sentence with conjunct waw and relates to two different time frames, the object being same on two occasions.
The pronoun is red word is singular, masculine, third person. Succinctness in Qur'an is par excellence. This first part of compound sentence reveals the information that Ibrahim alahissalm had two sons and one grand son of such age who can be given an advice, before his death.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 21, 2019, 09:18:18 AM
//Did you notice strangely why Yousuf omitted Ismail in Aabaai list in 12:38....at the same time, 2:133 Yakub was very old and nearing death and sons (banee) told including Ismail as their Aabaai..//

وَٱتَّبَعْتُ مِلَّةَ ءَابَآءِ ىٓ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ وَإِسْحَٟقَ وَيَعْقُوبَۚ

He has mentioned only fathers by genetic line.

Earlier also 12:6 reference is by genetic relationship

وَيُتِـمُّ نِعْمَتَهُۥ عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَـىٰ ءَالِ يَعْقُوبَ كَمَآ أَتَمَّهَا عَلَـىٰٓ أَبَوَيْكَ مِن قَبْلُ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ وَإِسْحَٟقَۚ

And will complete His blessing upon you and the family/followers of Ya'qoob [alai'his'slaam] like He had completed upon your two forefathers [grand father and grand grand father], early on, Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and Ies'hauq [alai'his'slaam]
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 21, 2019, 06:18:26 PM

Peace....
One email message pointed me out a good indication in verse 2:140 regarding chronology...
While prophets names are mentioned according seniority, still Jews and Christian are mentioned in chronological order... While those prophets were neither Jew or Christians as per 3:67.& 2:140 so that also in order... Such as No Jews/christians then Jew and then Christian.... That proves Ismail was, before Is'haq with such precise chronology...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 22, 2019, 01:35:34 AM
That proves Ismail was, before Is'haq with such precise chronology...

lol@proves

Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able:

EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough idea

As I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 22, 2019, 02:32:02 AM
Salaam,



peace ibn_a,

No offence taken. In fact, I like the way you present the counter argument.

You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough
. If you're claiming it cannot be a fidya then that is a different matter. If it is the latter I have not seen you present sufficient Quranic evidence for this stance.

...

Peace Wakas,

- Thanks for your constructive criticism, I will try to explain my view of what I underlined in the quote.

The verses concerning fidya in the Quran:

Tranlation: Muhammad Asad.
* other opinions.

----- fidya to free captives -----
2:85 And yet, it is you who slay one another and drive some of your own people from their homelands, aiding one another against them in sin and hatred; but if they come to you as captives, you ransom them - although the very [act of] driving them away has been made unlawful to you!. Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection, commitment to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do

47:4 NOW WHEN you meet [in war] those who are bent on denying the truth, smite their necks* until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter [set them free,] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: thus [shall it be]. And [know that] had God so willed, He could indeed punish them [Himself]; but [He wills you to struggle] so as to test you [all] by means of one another. And as for those who are slain in God’s cause, never will He let their deeds go to waste
* l-riqābi*  can also mean: captives.
------------------------------------


----- fidya to free onself from commandments/recommandations,  for valid reason -----
2:184 [fasting] during a certain number of days. But whoever of you is ill, or on a journey, [shall fast instead for the same] number of other days; and [in such cases] it is incumbent upon those who can afford it* to make sacrifice by feeding a needy person. And whoever does more good than he is bound to do does good unto himself thereby; for to fast is to do good unto yourselves - if you but knew it.
*yuteeqoonahu*  can also mean : hardship/difficulty/not have the strength for it.

2:196 AND PERFORM the pilgrimage and the pious visit [to Mecca] in honour of God; and if you are held back, give instead whatever offering you can easily afford. And do not shave your heads until the offering has been sacrificed; but he from among you who is ill or suffers from an ailment of the head shall redeem himself by fasting, or alms, or [any other] act of worship. And if you are hale and secure, then he who takes advantage of a pious visit before the [time of] pilgrimage shall give whatever offering he can easily afford; whereas he who cannot afford it shall fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days after your return: that is, ten full [days]. All this relates to him who does not live near the Inviolable House of Worship. And remain conscious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
------------------------------------


----- fidya to free herself from her husband  -----
2:229 A divorce may be [revoked] twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both [partners] have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God: hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up [to her husband] in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them: for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers!
------------------------------------



----- fidya to free oneself from punishment/suffering -----
3:91 Verily, as for those who are bent on denying the truth and die as deniers of the truth - not all the gold on earth could ever be their ransom. It is they for whom grievous suffering is in store; and they shall have none to succour them.

5:36 Verily, if those who are bent on denying the truth had all that is on earth, and twice as much, to offer as ransom from suffering on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them: for grievous suffering awaits them.

10:54 And all human beings that have been doing evil's would surely, if they possessed all that is on earth, offer it as ransom [on Judgment Day]; and when they see the suffering [that awaits them], they will be unable to express their remorse. But judgment will be passed on them in all equity; and they will not be wronged.

13:18 of those who have responded to their Sustainer with a goodly response, and of those who did not respond to Him. [As for the latter,] if they possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom [on the Day of Judgment]: a most evil reckoning awaits them, and their goal is hell: and how evil a resting-place!

39:47 But if those who are bent on evildoing possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom from the awful suffering [that will befall them] on the Day of Resurrection: for, something with which they had not reckoned before will [by then] have been made obvious to them by God;

57: 15 “And so, no ransom shall be accepted today from you, and neither from those who were [openly] bent on denying the truth. Your goal is the fire: it is your [only] refuge - and how evil a journey’s end!”

70:11 though they may be in one another's sight: [for,] everyone who was lost in sin will on that Day but desire to ransom himself from suffering at the price of his own children,
70:12   and of his spouse, and of his brother,
70:13   and of all the kinsfolk who ever sheltered him,
70:14   and of whoever [else] lives on earth, all of them - so that he could but save himself.
------------------------------------


----- fidya for ?? -----  in " the Abraham leaving scenario interpetation "
37:107 And We ransomed him with a tremendous sacrifice,

--------

If I missed something or made errors, please someone add or correct.



-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.

The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.

From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that  you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God    exchanged    Isaac/Ismael    for/with    a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



peace ibn_a,

....
The noun dhib'hin is only used once in Quran. I consider my take on it strong enough to allow for the possibility. I never said anywhere that my interpretation is validated by this or any other point. Please pay careful attention to my words.

As I said on this thread, I considered the various options, and found the view presented in my article to be the most cogent (i.e. has the least number of issues). If you disagree please let us know your view so we can weigh them up.


Consider my posts concerning your article more as feedback and as questions to better understand the reason for your interpretation.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 22, 2019, 03:09:30 AM
lol@proves

Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able:

EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough idea

As I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.

Then let’s not PROVE or CONFIRM anything.. let’s just wander in confusion by keep arguing for centuries like the yester year scholars.. be it Ismail or Is’haq or Slaughter or Separation… what difference it makes… who cares…that’s not my way…  You be in that mindset if you really want to be by saying lol to proofs or as what your statement sounds…… but I won’t… at least I will ensure to my self with the time spent on this forum by having known other believers understanding, so it increases my belief and my knowledge… after all, the whole topic is only between 2 Sons not 20, only to pick one son out of it who involved in this story….that’s all.. If we are unable to do that at least, then where we stand in our understanding of Quran…
Proving anything doesn’t mean that everyone would or must accept it even how much it weighs towards one side… that’s a well known fact…. Even anything is proven manifestly; only very minute number will pay attention to it.... They may be silent knowing what is right…So pretty obvious what is my intention here is to expose something which is hidden proofs for those who heed…let the reader go further in his or her own search….That’s what I am up to and not to convince everyone who are firmly affixed on something else… that’s impossible and useless effort… that won’t happen .. never..
If this is the way and cannot prove anything in quran, then we don’t have any right to say to those who follow Hadith apart from quran….coz.. what is proven is only within our knowledge and not within their acceptance..calling them based on our acceptance is merely an argument…not proof....
God guides with what is right, that cannot be proved by any human that God has guided such and such…But truth is always stand out from the falsehood… that’s undeniable..

without confirming/proving anything in quran, how someone accept the quran and believe in God..
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 22, 2019, 03:50:45 AM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell?   ……..  Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son?  ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?

So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 22, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell?   ……..  Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son?  ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?

So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…

What is the characteristic trait of each of two sons of Ibrahim alahissalam.

Which son was given by acceding to the prayer for grant of ONE son?

Which son was given unsolicited?

This will support the point of jkan.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 22, 2019, 05:35:08 PM
Salaam,


-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.

The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were
.



That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....

We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....

I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...

After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son?  Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 22, 2019, 09:43:58 PM
Salam,

Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..

[37:105] You have fulfilled the vision." So, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
[37:106] This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear": No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
[37:107] We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
[37:108] We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed": We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on October 23, 2019, 12:09:36 AM
peace ibn_a,


The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

Quote
From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that  you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God    exchanged    Isaac/Ismael    for/with    a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."


I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 23, 2019, 01:27:58 AM
peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.


Peace...

No Brother Waqas.. Don’t grind it, it will become so complicated then…

2:196 in all general translations or even your special article translation…
Two CAUSES or REASONS and three OPTIONS…
CAUSES 2 = Mareed & Azan Min RasiHI….
OPTIONS 3 = Siyam / Sadaqa / Nusuki

Not necessary to carry out the entire OPTIONS for one CAUSE or both the CAUSES…for instance… Mareed, then siyam is beyond probability … so go for another option which is possible…If Azan Min RasiHi then better Siyam, etc..
Here CAUSE which prompted to FIDYA are unpleasant or Ibn-a indicated (Physically or mentally not preferred).. so opted suitable one FIDYA out of three Options..
Why you give the impossible OPTION for the CAUSE to substantiate your claim.. as you stated.. if one Sick then Option Fast…Even in prescribed fasting when sick not recommended to fast..that's bizarre example
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 23, 2019, 01:43:04 AM
Salaam,



That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....

We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....

I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...

After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son?  Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...

Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 23, 2019, 02:13:19 AM
Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.

Peace Wakas,

I will try to respond later, God willing.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 23, 2019, 02:43:31 AM
Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 23, 2019, 07:32:51 AM
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)

Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.

The preposition: بـِ  designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes:

1) [للإلصاقِ] For connectivity;

2) [للإِسْتَعَانَةِ] For assistance; instrument

3) [لِلتَّعدِيَةِ] For making a verb transitive;

4) [لِلظَّرفِيَّةِ] For an adverbial meaning;

5) [لِلمُصَاحَبَةِ] For accompaniment.

6) [لِلمُابَلَةِ]  For requital; and

7) [زائِدَةٌ]  Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.

http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 23, 2019, 05:29:08 PM
Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.

The preposition: بـِ  designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes:

1) [للإلصاقِ] For connectivity;

2) [للإِسْتَعَانَةِ] For assistance; instrument

3) [لِلتَّعدِيَةِ] For making a verb transitive;

4) [لِلظَّرفِيَّةِ] For an adverbial meaning;

5) [لِلمُصَاحَبَةِ] For accompaniment.

6) [لِلمُابَلَةِ]  For requital; and

7) [زائِدَةٌ]  Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.

http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm)

Thank you Brother Mazhr.... I received this link from one member... It elaborates what, Mazhr submitted above...

http://revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/12/arabic-particles-learn-arabic-preposition-bi.html

I know all of you refer dictionaries...So can refer... 'bi' has various meaning n application....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Iyyaka on October 23, 2019, 10:29:59 PM
Salam,

Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..

[37:105] You have fulfilled the vision." SO, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
[37:106] This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear": No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
[37:107] We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
[37:108] We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed": We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 23, 2019, 11:44:08 PM
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)

Peace........................

I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 37:01 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem -  So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””
But for 37:107 used word “WITH” WaFadainaHu BiZibhin Azeem – definitely there must be grammatical rules..but it depend how they understood the verse to apply (with or of)
It shows translators have found that “Bi” gives the English meaning “”OF”” as well…if it was a critical word and not befit to quran we could have negated all the translators to suit quran, but this is a simple preposition of “Bi”…so they can’t go wrong in most probability depending on the verse 37:101…
Instead of “Min” the word “Bi” in  verse no. 37:107 really befits to the incident took place…even grammatically… either use “OF, Because of, in replacement for, etc… I don’t think the word “Min” (from) should be there to get the exact meaning… Coz incident (slaughtering didn’t take place…we should differentiate first the meaning and usage of  “OF” and “FROM” in a nutshell..…
*I was fortunately saved OF an accident….in fact didn’t face/involve the accident, but could have been unless for some reason……….
** I was fortunately saved FROM the accident… in fact did face/involved in the accident, but nothing happened though others have faced with unfortunate outcome of the incident..
Or else.. when knowing clearly.. for example
* Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
** Pudding is made FROM Sea Grass … not so obvious what are the ingredients, unless explained by the one who made it  or with some other way..
Thus, if in case Ibrahim was slaughtering some others and till reach to his son then he was saved… if that is the scenario then the usage of “FROM” is much appropriate coz he was saved FROM terrible Slaughtering taking place prior to his son’s slaughter.. God knows, which word to use and what is used is in quran that remains….....let’s trace what actually God meant by what HE used…that’s it…
How far my explanation befits to the situation, I don’t know, but I don’t see anything wrong in the wording of Quran to mean that “We ransomed him of tremendous Slaughter”… After all something happened between Ibrahim and his son… let’s get close to trace what happened. .In my side I have furnished the evidences to the extreme end within quran which I never knew prior to research honestly… I learned a lot from my own research and from others here in this topic….
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mazhar on October 24, 2019, 01:49:48 AM
Quote
I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 37:01 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem -  So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””

Root: ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.

This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm)
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 24, 2019, 08:26:43 AM

Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

...

Peace Wakas,

See it this way:
My view is that (some) believers may feel guilty (mental situation), and/or feel excluded for not being able to do ( the) (some) commandments/recommandations, so giving them other options, could help remove/Reduce their guilty feelings, and/or feeling excluded --->  restore/improve their (mental) situation.




...

I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
red in quote: mine.


peace ibn_a,

As I mentioned previously HERE (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426688#msg426688) the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Thus, it would be either:
1) exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
2) exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.

I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote:

It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
red in quote: mine.

Positive was not about "a father leaving his son" but about "the fidya".
What I understand is that you see the fidya as a sort of reward that god gave to Abraham in exchange for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael.
If it is a raward , there would bee no need to use the word fidya, I think that a fidya is not the same as a reward.
You seem to have understood my view when you said "You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough."


"A self-contained explanation"  seems very abstract in my view.
God rewarded Abraham for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael  with a mighty sacrifice.
While the mighty sacrifice (ie Abraham leaving his son Isaac/Ismael) was done by Abraham.
How did God reward Abraham for something Abraham did himself?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 24, 2019, 08:44:02 AM

Salaam,



Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace jkhan,


If your explanation of 37:107  in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu :

for example  --->  نجينه  najjaynahu



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on October 24, 2019, 05:55:35 PM
Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


If your explanation of 37:107  in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu :

for example  --->  نجينه  najjaynahu



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace.......  .....

Look brother....  There is a truth and that's One...

It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding...  God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu..  The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered...  There is nothing to SAVE....  Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident..  That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 27, 2019, 07:55:13 AM
Salaam,


Peace.......  .....

Look brother....  There is a truth and that's One...

It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding...  God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu..  The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered...  There is nothing to SAVE....  Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident..  That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....

Peace jkhan,

My intention was not to skip or jump , but to add some information to my previous post, as you can see I quoted my previous post.(maybe "najjaynahu" was not a good example)
Not my intention to alter , as you said the words of God are precise.
Trying  to explain that "fidya" has the sense of exchange.

- An example from Lane's Lexicon ( read in context of 37:107  and 2:229)

http://arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%81%D8%AF%D9%8A?cat=50

b3: وَــفَدَيْــنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ [in the Kur xxxvii. 107] means And we made an animal prepared for sacrifice to be a ransom for him, and freed him from slaughter. (T, TA.)

b4: فَدَتْ نَفْسَهَا مِنْ زَوْجِهَا and ↓ افتدت [alone] mean She gave property to her husband so that she became free from him by divorce. (Msb, TA.)



This was also said by other members:

...

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes: "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "

Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic: "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.

...

...
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
...

Root: ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.

This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm)



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on October 27, 2019, 08:01:41 AM

Salaam,


Peace Wakas,

Do you consider that there is nothing more to add to the discussion about "fidya"?

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on November 25, 2019, 01:33:47 AM
Salaam,



Quote
...  (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.
.....

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,



ستجدني ان شا الله من الصبرين  ...

 ... satajiduni,  in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.

 ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.



- Doesn't that imply that :

Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)


His son did not say for example: I will be, if God willed, of the patient ones.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on November 25, 2019, 06:58:18 AM
peace ibn_a,

Quote
- Doesn't that imply that :

Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)

That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.

It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.

However the evidence is in favour of the following point:
Quote
3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on November 26, 2019, 10:51:38 AM
Peace,

FM translation
37:102    And when he grew enough to work with him, he said: "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said: "O my father, do what you are commanded / if'al ma tu/maru to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."

The son of Abraham did not say to his father : Do what you saw or see in your dream or  do what you have been commanded / if'al ma omirta    as in the following verse :

39:11    Say: "I have been commanded / Ineee omirtu to serve God, devoting the system to Him."



37:103    So when they both had submitted,wa tallahu liljabeeni.

So when they both had submitted to do what abraham is commanded, not what Abraham is seing in a dream. Abraham did not say "I have been commanded  to sacrifice you".

I undestand "wa tallahu liljabeeni" as a mark of approval and total submission of Abraham and his son  to what he is commanded.

37:105    "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.

37:110    It is thus that We reward the righteous.


Abraham is rewarded because he has carried out the vision and he did not execute the vision, he submits himself to God, and he is a good doer / righteous


4:125    And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.

31:22    And whoever submits himself completely to God, while he is righteous, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold. And to God is the conclusion of all matters.


37:107    And We ransomed him with a great animal sacrifice.


Abraham was rewarded by a  great sacrifice instead of the sacrifice of his son in his vision. God knows the true interpretation of Abraham's vision.

God knows best.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on November 27, 2019, 04:18:01 AM
In the quran, we read in the verses 2 - 196 and 5 - 2 animal sacrifice as alhady.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on November 28, 2019, 01:08:29 AM
37:105    "You have carried out believed the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Mohammed. on December 03, 2019, 10:18:10 AM
Yusuf’ story is a clear example for family separation.

Years of separation between parents and beloved child -(12:84-86). This also happened by God’s (the Just/Wise/Judicious) will/permission.
Unlike Abraham’s story, here it was unexpected and Yusuf was much younger compared to Abraham’s son. And the parents meet him long after his childhood & adolescence.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on December 04, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.

It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.

However the evidence is in favour of the following point:

Quote
3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.
bold:mine

Quote
Quote
...
*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me") indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,

If I fully understand what you mean, I don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ  

I think that when his son said: ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.
has not necessarily to be after, but could refer to the moment ( if3al ma tu amru ) i.e.
when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream, and like you said in the first part of your comment:

...when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND...



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on December 04, 2019, 06:20:19 AM
peace ibn_a,

What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.

All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.

What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on December 05, 2019, 12:25:38 AM
Peace,

Thabaha / thibh / sacrifice  as daraba / beat or cut off the hand have multiple meanings.

If we accept the meaning of sacrifice, there is no problem, abrahama confirmed his vision and obeys according to this verse:

4:125    And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.

37:106    Surely, this was an exacting test mubeen.

What does mean mubeen according the quran ? :

37:113    And We blessed him and Isaac. And from among their progeny, some are righteous, and some are clearly (mubeen) wicked.

Abraham's vision / clearly (mubeen) test,   shows that Abraham is clearly righteous and not wicked.

37:105    "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.

The vision is a test that clarifies / bayyana / mubeen that Abraham is righteous / he is a good doer.







Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on December 05, 2019, 04:01:18 AM
Thabaha / thibh / sacrifice, separation

thibh 3atheem : great sacrifice, separation for a great mission
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on December 07, 2019, 01:40:06 AM
Salaam,



peace ibn_a,

What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.

...

Quote
Quote
...
*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me") indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,


Adapted my previous comment, but still don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ 

The conventional understanding:

I think that when his son said: ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
 refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e  when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER:  if3al ma tu amru.


If patience refers to AFTER, then of course there would be a problem with the conventional understanding,
but if patience refers to the MOMENT, then I dont think there is an issue.

Unless the Arabic language rules don't allow that it could be understood that way ( i.e. the conventional understanding).



...

All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.

What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.

I don't know if there is an appropriate example, there could be, maybe some one knows about an example.
If there is no example, what do you think that it could mean for the Abraham leaving scenario and for  the conventional understanding?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on December 07, 2019, 05:06:38 AM
peace,

Quote :

I think that when his son said: ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e  when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER:  if3al ma tu amru.

if3al ma tu amru : do what you order in the present,
Abraham's vision :  He did not say I was ordered to do.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on December 08, 2019, 05:44:07 AM
peace ibn_a,

What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.

All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.

What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.

<<<< <<< Cites 28:27, which possibly works depending on how one interprets it:
1) 28:27 means Moses would marry one of his daughters and go on to fulfill the condition set ---> does not work as a qualifying comparable example
2) 28:27 means Moses would fulfill the request then after that marry a daughter ---> does work
I haven't studied it in detail to see if we can glean from Quran which is meant but the flow suggests (1) is more likely.>> >>>>>

Above waqas's comment..

Peace Waqas...

 In fact the flaw of verses says Musa married and seems to be fulfilled term only first part of the term that is to say 8 years.. As soon as he fulfilled the term (ajall not ajalain) he is leaving with his family (married family)  fortunately God uses what Musa said in verse 28:29...here the usage is in plural(aathikum, umkuthzu) that also 3 or more plural.. So it shows Musa's wife plus 2kids or more with him.. Coz they can only be Musa's family non other coz God called musa leaving after completing a term... So musa would not have married after completing the term but when they agreed initially.. Musa cannot have two more kids once completed 8 years and leave otherwise. ..
Here important thing is term agreement was only with musa and father in law not with his daughter... Musa agreed to the basic term 8 years...  So he married.. Agreeing to the term is important completing or not completing is in Musa's hand and their family life...
So what you should consider is what Musa agreed with his father in law and not the time he completes.. The ACT is term agreement...
So they agreed, and marriage took place...  That's the story.. So why not particle "SA' shouldn't match ... Musa didn't betray the term..  That was part of his married life in the end... Point to note is unless musa agreed the second part i.e marriage won't take place.. 
So act of agreeing to the requested term took place before marriage took place...
First... Agreement
Second....  Marriage

Is that clear now dear brother waqas... Is your long pending particle 'Sa' issue satisfies you now?  If not explain me why....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on December 08, 2019, 09:25:46 AM
peace jkhan,

Thanks for clarifying however you have invalidated the example you cited and thus strengthened my argument. Let me explain:

I said:
Quote
Cites 28:27, which possibly works depending on how one interprets it:
1) 28:27 means Moses would marry one of his daughters and go on to fulfill the condition set ---> does not work as a qualifying comparable example
2) 28:27 means Moses would fulfill the request then after that marry a daughter ---> does work

Previously you never clarified which of the above two was your view, however in your above post you have now clarified your view is (1) when you said "So musa would not have married after completing the term but when they agreed initially". This is also my view.

To explain it away, you try and make the case it is about the act of agreeing, but this fails logic.
When one makes an agreement with another it is impossible to tell if the other party is righteous or not at that point, and that can only be determined if/when they stay true to what was agreed upon. Since this was an agreement with a time component then by Moses experiencing his father-in-law's behaviour/demands/actions/etc over the course of the agreement Moses will be able to determine if he was true to his word and righteous (or not)..

28:27 says:
He said, "I wish to offer one of my two daughters for you to marry, in return for working for me for eight HaJJ; if you make them ten, it will be voluntary on your part and I do not intend to make difficulty for you. You will find me, GOD willing, righteous."






Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on December 08, 2019, 05:46:02 PM
peace jkhan,

Thanks for clarifying however you have invalidated the example you cited and thus strengthened my argument. Let me explain:

I said:
Previously you never clarified which of the above two was your view, however in your above post you have now clarified your view is (1) when you said "So musa would not have married after completing the term but when they agreed initially". This is also my view.

To explain it away, you try and make the case it is about the act of agreeing, but this fails logic.
When one makes an agreement with another it is impossible to tell if the other party is righteous or not at that point, and that can only be determined if/when they stay true to what was agreed upon. Since this was an agreement with a time component then by Moses experiencing his father-in-law's behaviour/demands/actions/etc over the course of the agreement Moses will be able to determine if he was true to his word and righteous (or not)..

28:27 says:
He said, "I wish to offer one of my two daughters for you to marry, in return for working for me for eight HaJJ; if you make them ten, it will be voluntary on your part and I do not intend to make difficulty for you. You will find me, GOD willing, righteous."

Dear Waqas...
From your side it may be illogical... But from my side it is logical... I will explain why...
First of all I find the old man even before Musa agreed to marry a righteous person...

After watering for the women... Women would have noticed the behavior of Musa and the way he talked to them...
All these stories they both would have thoroughly told the old father... That would have already impressed the old man...
No one would send his daughters to a stranger again asking to meet him for just watering... It shows the old man's quality as a person... He wanted to reward.... But he just not rewarded for musa watered.. It seems like they were in serious conversation narrating all Musa's story to him... Musa also seemed impressed about the behavior of daughters and and the old man already... Soothing words of old man saying "Don't fear you have escaped from wring doers" these are peaceful words from good people.   
Musa was not a child not to understand that family... Musa would have never agreed to strangers without anyone for him to Knkw about them.. He was all alone and judged them.. He would have never agreed if he didn't find the old man and daughters as believers.. If what musa judged is right then he can expect him to be righteous... But it was old man's  duty to give a word saying that you will find me righteous... That would be moral confidence boost to musa coupled with what old man stated...
Further... Daughter claimed musa as trustworthy (ameen)  ..disbelievers don't need trustworthy person.. They were also looking a righteous person and they found in musa...
Don't tell me musa blindly agreed to marry coz he was in a pathetic situation... It is God who gave musa from a righteous family a righteous daughter...
Did musa say.. If I don't find you righteous I will withdraw from the term.. Musa was convinced...

So for me it is meaningful that musa trusted the whole family and agreed to the old man's condition and married immediately... For this agreement they both placed God as witness ...this is a righteous act...
The confidence musa kept on old man judging him is the triguring point.. Then marriage.. I don't see any flaw in using particle "Sa"..
It doesn't take years to judge a true righteous person... Like the daughter of old man instantly told musa as Alameen (Trustworthy)...

Whatever you decide this story won't change the Ibrahim's story.. Evidences are glaring fir physical sacrifice...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on December 08, 2019, 08:20:23 PM
@ Waqas...
would like to add below comment for previous thread..

remember the old man called himself "you will find me God will Saaliheen" it means simple law abiding good doer" = salaihin.. not a great Muththaqun... So to identify a simple law abiding good doer being a believer is within the reach of a persons simple acts if one meets and stays a few moment with him is more than enough to grasp....
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on December 09, 2019, 07:22:15 AM
peace jkhan,

It seems your view is based on presumptions. You nor I can change the Arabic.

Your basic claim is that the old man was already righteous and Moses already determined that hence agreed, rendering the Arabic redundant:

"...you will find me, God willing, of the righteous..." (imperfect, future tense)

Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: jkhan on December 09, 2019, 09:10:28 AM
peace jkhan,

It seems your view is based on presumptions. You nor I can change the Arabic.

Your basic claim is that the old man was already righteous and Moses already determined that hence agreed, rendering the Arabic redundant:

"...you will find me, God willing, of the righteous..." (imperfect, future tense)

We don't want to neglect Arabic or its pattern... And I think I or you won't... Problem here is I think you forgot your initial question and opinion...you keep skipping or jumping one to another... Below your statement

///Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me") indicating ACTION in the FUTURE. The OBVIOUS PROBLEM for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones AFTER HAVING been sacrificed/killed?///

who explained to you that Ibrahim's son was patient after being sacrificed...? Look brother... Note both stories Ibrahim and musa...

Ibrahim saw a dream... Explained to his son... And wanted his suggestion and opinion...his son agreed... This consent of Ibrahim's Son is very crucial... From the moment until Ibrahim about to sacrifice we have no clue how many days passed away.. Anyhow till the sacrifice took place Ibrahim's son was patient and offered his father total commitment to make his job easy... So the future was from the time Ibrahim's son agreed for his father's request until God called Ibrahim.. So Ibrahim saw the promised patience of his son.. He didn't betray...

Same way... Musa had a conversation with the old man that too very amicable one like Ibrahim did with his son.. Then old man put his wish into Musa's ear.. Same way like Ibrahim asked his son.. What old man asked is would you like to marry one ofy daughter but with a condition ..?  Musa agreed.. Same way Ibrahim's son agreed... Here the one who put the condition is telling you will find me patient in sha Allah... Coz he is the one who is going to make conditions throughout 8yrs.. Observer will be musa... In Ibrahim's case.. His son is the one who surrenders to Ibrahim's request and observer will be Ibrahim..
So.. Ibrahim story....
Asking suggestion (ibrahim) >>> Acceptance of sacrifice (son) >>> 'sathajiduni' you will find me ..future till sacrifice action took place.. .... Isn't the acceptance the key ?

So.. Musa story...

Asking suggestion (Old Man) >>> Acceptance of marriage (Musa) >>> 'sathajiduni' you will find me ..future till term complete .. .... Isn't the acceptance the key in both?

If Musa and Ibrahim's son not accept the requests then NO future...
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on December 09, 2019, 11:04:13 AM
Peace,

Other example of "You will find me, God willing, to be patient"

18:69    He said (Moses): "You will find me, God willing, to be patient. And I will not disobey any command of yours."
18:70    He said: "If you follow me, then do not ask about anything until I mention it to you."
18:71    So they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. He said: "Have you made a hole in it to drown its people? You have done something dreadful!"
18:72    He said: "Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?"

For Moses, this is  the future that precedes the following action : they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. Moses was not patient

In the case of Abraham's son, this is  the future that precedes the following action  : Abraham has confirmed the vision, they both had submitted, .

The clear test is the confirmation of the vision by Abraham, the patience of his son, and their submission.
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: ibn_a on December 12, 2019, 01:34:04 AM
Salaam,


peace,

Quote :

Quote
I think that when his son said: ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e  when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER:  if3al ma tu amru.

if3al ma tu amru : do what you order in the present,
Abraham's vision :  He did not say I was ordered to do.

Peace Houriya,

When his son said "if3al ma tu amru", what was he referring to?


Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Wakas on July 30, 2020, 11:56:44 PM
It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam):

Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Associated article: Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html
Title: Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Post by: Houriya on July 31, 2020, 06:21:41 AM
Peace Wakas,

Excellent article and beautiful photos.

Abraham's vision is similar to the vision of the king, which was interpreted by Joseph : 7 lean cows that eat 7 fat cows ...

Happy Eid Elkebir Day, just kidding, without offense to the people who celebrate it.

Peace

It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam):

Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Associated article: Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html