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Family Issues => Marriage & Divorce => Topic started by: Amra94 on July 08, 2019, 11:10:21 AM

Title: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 08, 2019, 11:10:21 AM
Do you think the woman should change her last name when she gets legally married?

33:5 Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of God. But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is God Forgiving and Merciful.

This verse says that you should call adopted sons by their fathers name, so obviously the father has the dominant name to give the child. Since the child will have the fathers last name, doesn't it make more sense that the mom does too so that you'll be identified as a family?
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 08, 2019, 11:21:39 AM
In spain and portugal people do not change names when they marry and have the family names of the father and the mother.

Why should a family have a single name? If it is necessary you hyphen-name of one consort-name of the other ocnsort.

I have never understood why in so many countries people undergo such an ordeal as changing names with all the complications it brings for documents an all...  not to speak of the violence it entails to have all your life your own name and suddenly you have to give it up and take another.

I do not think the Qur'an orders that people should have the father name, rather as the usage was that, what it was saying was that the usage should be followed even if you adopt a child, and let him keep his fathers name not change it to the adoptive father's.



Salaam
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 13, 2019, 01:51:10 PM
In spain and portugal people do not change names when they marry and have the family names of the father and the mother.

Why should a family have a single name? If it is necessary you hyphen-name of one consort-name of the other ocnsort.

I have never understood why in so many countries people undergo such an ordeal as changing names with all the complications it brings for documents an all...  not to speak of the violence it entails to have all your life your own name and suddenly you have to give it up and take another.

I do not think the Qur'an orders that people should have the father name, rather as the usage was that, what it was saying was that the usage should be followed even if you adopt a child, and let him keep his fathers name not change it to the adoptive father's.



Salaam
Salam. True, it can complicate things on documents but here it can also be confusing when you say you're married but documents show the couple doesn't have the same last name. And I think having two last names would be ridiculously long, some hispanics have some long names like Esteban Julio Ricardo Montoya de la Rosa Ramirez..
Even though it says the adopted child should keep his father's name it still shows that the child doesn't have both the father's and mother's last name. But idk since there's no clear commandment I guess it's up to the woman if she wants to change it or not.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 13, 2019, 02:14:37 PM
Not ridiculously long, since where they do not have two family names they do have two first names, which makes for exactly the same length, but they discard the mothers name, which is logical because finally what has a mother to do with her children? nothing at all, only the father has something to do with the children, but the mother? a mere stranger. 

Salaam 
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 13, 2019, 03:27:58 PM
Not ridiculously long, since where they do not have two family names they do have two first names, which makes for exactly the same length, but they discard the mothers name, which is logical because finally what has a mother to do with her children? nothing at all, only the father has something to do with the children, but the mother? a mere stranger. 

Salaam
What do you mean only the father has something to do with the children? The mother would have her husband's last name so her last name would be the same as the children's too.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 14, 2019, 01:52:53 AM
Quote
What do you mean only the father has something to do with the children? The mother would have her husband's last name so her last name would be the same as the children's too.

Exactly, the wife is the first c hild of the husband, not his wife but his child. That is it. She stops being her father or other offspring and becomes the guardinaed or the property of the husband, just like his children. Disgusting.

If not, why not ahieve the same result you seem to find so desirable by the father taking the mother's last name? Wouldn't it amount to the same?

And really what is the problem in not changing names. No problem whatsoever in that. None. Where do you see the problem?

People are not  things that you can call some thing today and something else next day, but you see as natural that women should be treated like things and be given the names of their owner just as they used to do with slaves, who took the name of the owner.

Salaam
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 14, 2019, 07:32:39 AM
Exactly, the wife is the first c hild of the husband, not his wife but his child. That is it. She stops being her father or other offspring and becomes the guardinaed or the property of the husband, just like his children. Disgusting.

If not, why not ahieve the same result you seem to find so desirable by the father taking the mother's last name? Wouldn't it amount to the same?

And really what is the problem in not changing names. No problem whatsoever in that. None. Where do you see the problem?

People are not  things that you can call some thing today and something else next day, but you see as natural that women should be treated like things and be given the names of their owner just as they used to do with slaves, who took the name of the owner.

Salaam
How does changing your last name make you the husbands child or property? And it's like becoming a slave? Nobody sees it that way.
And there's no problem with not changing your name I said it's up to the woman if she wants to or not.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 14, 2019, 09:32:21 AM
How does changing your last name make you the husbands child or property? And it's like becoming a slave? Nobody sees it that way.


Then what is the point of changing it?

Salaam
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 14, 2019, 12:27:47 PM
Then what is the point of changing it?

Salaam
For most people it's just to feel more like you're a family. Btw Quranically the father has the responsibility to provide for the family (4:34, 2:233). I don't see how a woman is like a slave by taking the husbands name when he is the one who takes care of her.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Bikrun on July 14, 2019, 01:22:10 PM
Do you think the woman should change her last name when she gets legally married?

33:5 Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of God. But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is God Forgiving and Merciful.

This verse says that you should call adopted sons by their fathers name, so obviously the father has the dominant name to give the child. Since the child will have the fathers last name, doesn't it make more sense that the mom does too so that you'll be identified as a family?

Salam

May I ask why it is given that 33:5 talks only about adopted children? And who are those "them" that should call them by their fathers?
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 14, 2019, 10:57:49 PM
Sometimes i think different way and its interesting too.

Let say a woman is providing for family and husband is it ok if husband change his last name adding the name of his wife as a family ?

Some predictors already claim the son/daughter will b called by mother name on the day of judgement due to the chasity ?

Although whats wrong in here by calling kid by mother name ? Where chasity really affects the lives of poor women on the other hand who cares about hereafter when there is no need to cover up a chaste character ?

Things sometimes messed with logic and rules of tradition/custom becoz males are behind all those traditions. And also all those laws are being put forward by male which heavily hint the manmade God/scriptures try to control the women.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 01:54:29 AM
For most people it's just to feel more like you're a family. Btw Quranically the father has the responsibility to provide for the family (4:34, 2:233). I don't see how a woman is like a slave by taking the husbands name when he is the one who takes care of her.

S  in fact you are saying that she is the husands' first child and not only first child but really a child unable to do anything at all. That is the husband is taking the afther's place, who according to your set up would be the one who took care of her previously. Only males become adults? Women do nothing that would allo them to be contributors to society even if they do not stand as autnonomous proffessionals?

The whole story about changing name is absurd. You have a name for identity. How can you change your identity by the mere fact of getting married and the other partner does nto change his identity but you change yours. In fact it seems almost like a fraud: you arry a woman, and then when you marry her she is nto the same woman.

Salaam
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 06:22:19 AM
S  in fact you are saying that she is the husands' first child and not only first child but really a child unable to do anything at all. That is the husband is taking the afther's place, who according to your set up would be the one who took care of her previously. Only males become adults? Women do nothing that would allo them to be contributors to society even if they do not stand as autnonomous proffessionals?

The whole story about changing name is absurd. You have a name for identity. How can you change your identity by the mere fact of getting married and the other partner does nto change his identity but you change yours. In fact it seems almost like a fraud: you arry a woman, and then when you marry her she is nto the same woman.

Salaam
Nobody said anything about women not being able to contribute to society you're such a triggered feminist. RELAX
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Layth on July 15, 2019, 06:23:42 AM
Salam,

I think this is a clear-cut issue.

- God tells us to call adopted children by their father's name.

- God calls Myriam "daughter of Imran"

That gives the precedent and clarity of naming children (male or female) after their father's names.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 06:28:54 AM
Salam

May I ask why it is given that 33:5 talks only about adopted children? And who are those "them" that should call them by their fathers?
Salam, 33:5 talks only about adopted sons so that you know what name they should have, which is their biological fathers name if you know who he is. "Them" = adopted sons.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Bikrun on July 15, 2019, 08:03:48 AM
Salam, 33:5 talks only about adopted sons so that you know what name they should have, which is their biological fathers name if you know who he is. "Them" = adopted sons.

Salam,

My question, to which I have no answer and it's a simple wondering, is why it is ONLY about adopted children. The previous verse talks about 2 groups, why everybody accepts that 33:5 refers only to one of them?

On the other hand, what I was wondering is not who are "them" in the verse, but who are those "they" who should call others by their fathers. There is not "oh you who believe" or similar addressing in the surah. So who are "they" who shall call others by their fathers?

Considering also that the verses following are very concrete referring to the prophet and his wives, my questions arise...

Just setting out some wonderings
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 08:35:33 AM
Salam,

My question, to which I have no answer and it's a simple wondering, is why it is ONLY about adopted children. The previous verse talks about 2 groups, why everybody accepts that 33:5 refers only to one of them?

On the other hand, what I was wondering is not who are "them" in the verse, but who are those "they" who should call others by their fathers. There is not "oh you who believe" or similar addressing in the surah. So who are "they" who shall call others by their fathers?

Considering also that the verses following are very concrete referring to the prophet and his wives, my questions arise...

Just setting out some wonderings
Salam, thanks for making your questions more clear. It is only about adopted sons because the verse continues "but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your BROTHERS in religion and those entrusted to you.

Imo it makes sense the believers should call adopted sons by their fathers name because 33:4 does not sound like God is only talking to the prophet. And it doesnt actually say "o wives of the prophet" either.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 09:58:41 AM
Nobody said anything about women not being able to contribute to society you're such a triggered feminist. RELAX
Salam,

I think this is a clear-cut issue.

- God tells us to call adopted children by their father's name.

- God calls Myriam "daughter of Imran"

That gives the precedent and clarity of naming children (male or female) after their father's names.

It simply states that the usage of knowing the children by their father's name should not be changed in the case of the adopted children, because it seems that that was what as being done. Nowhere in the Qur'an it is set as a rule that always, everywhere, forever for everybody ONLY the fathers name may be used.

Isa ibnu Maryam,


Salaam
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 10:30:25 AM
It simply states that the usage of knowing the children by their father's name should not be changed in the case of the adopted children, because it seems that that was what as being done. Nowhere in the Qur'an it is set as a rule that always, everywhere, forever for everybody ONLY the fathers name may be used.

Isa ibnu Maryam,


Salaam

Nobody said anything about women not being able to contribute to society you're such a triggered feminist. RELAX

If you do not have arguments, you do not have to answer. Launching personal "niceties" does not add any value to the exchange.


Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 10:49:00 AM
If you do not have arguments, you do not have to answer. Launching personal "niceties" does not add any value to the exchange.
I have stated my argument which is just because a woman changes her last name to her husband's doesn't mean she's a child of his, a slave, not able to contribute to society etc. And you keep telling me that I'm saying these things for example "in fact you are saying that she is the husbands' first child and not only first child but really a child unable to do anything at all."

Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Bikrun on July 15, 2019, 10:49:53 AM
Salam, thanks for making your questions more clear. It is only about adopted sons because the verse continues "but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your BROTHERS in religion and those entrusted to you.

Imo it makes sense the believers should call adopted sons by their fathers name because 33:4 does not sound like God is only talking to the prophet. And it doesnt actually say "o wives of the prophet" either.

Salam

Thanks, sis, I am thankful and I wish I could share your absolute answer, but it happens I still have the same question  :'(

My wondering is simple and based on: call them by their fathers sounds absolutely patriarchal. You know? In this world before the DNA tests, the only sure was the mother, and of course God knows it. So, why this "if you do not know their fathers". Actually only the woman can know....
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 10:53:03 AM
It simply states that the usage of knowing the children by their father's name should not be changed in the case of the adopted children, because it seems that that was what as being done. Nowhere in the Qur'an it is set as a rule that always, everywhere, forever for everybody ONLY the fathers name may be used.

Isa ibnu Maryam,


Salaam
Jesus is called son of Mary because he didn't have a dad.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 10:58:17 AM
Salam

Thanks, sis, I am thankful and I wish I could share your absolute answer, but it happens I still have the same question  :'(

My wondering is simple and based on: call them by their fathers sounds absolutely patriarchal. You know? In this world before the DNA tests, the only sure was the mother, and of course God knows it. So, why this "if you do not know their fathers". Actually only the woman can know....
Salam, if you don't know who their father is then I don't see a problem with calling them by their mothers name. Jesus who didn't have a father was called by his mother's name.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 11:06:37 AM
Jesus is called son of Mary because he didn't have a dad.


Yes ma'am.

I guess that is goo for all the children all over the world that do not have a father. That is very very nice so you can make a difference between those wretches and those coming from decent families.

The world without men and women who wants truth and equity en human dealings seems to have a hard time digesting trusths about which nice people should not speak about during meals.

Nice mother virgin, just one, and pink religion which does not upset bourgoeois life.

I am shocked by the amount of western XIX and XX century bourgeois culture that has been absorbed into  "Islam" as the real and godly revealed truth. Muslims for XIX century western lifestyle, the real Islam thing. 

Taling about neptin, I think my quest is in fact more hopeless than hers.

 :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0



Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: good logic on July 15, 2019, 11:33:55 AM
Peace all.
I have a story about changing names:

Alexander was a military judge as well as a military leader. One day, they brought to him a soldier accused of cowardice
.
Alexander :  What is your name soldier?
Soldier:   (speaking quietly under his breath)My name is Alexander.
Alexander:   Speak up soldier, I can barely hear you.
Soldier:  (this time loud enough) I am called Alexander Sir.
Alexander:   That is my name sake, how dare you would take such a powerful name when you seem to be a coward?
Soldier:   I am sorry Sir, I apologise. Forgive me!
Alexander:  Well soldier, your name has saved you this time and you have one more chance. Change the way you live or change your name.

I suppose one should consider to change the way they live, it is more beneficial than changing a name and the most important thing.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Layth on July 15, 2019, 11:36:36 AM
Sorry, that doesn?t work.

If you don?t know their fathers name, then you name them ?brothers in the system?.

Quran never tells us to call them by their mothers (exception is Jesus who was conceived from only a woman).

P.s. in the Quran, the prophethood is transmitted through the male genes - not the female (another reason to keep the lineage in the father).
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 11:52:55 AM
I don't think it's saying to just call them brothers in the system, it seems like it's saying they're your brothers even though you don't know their fathers name.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 12:45:31 PM
Even though Jesus was only conceived by Mary, he was still referred to as son of Mary not Jesus brother in the system.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Layth on July 15, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
Jesus is exempt because he had no father.
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Bikrun on July 15, 2019, 01:38:50 PM
Salam, if you don't know who their father is then I don't see a problem with calling them by their mothers name. Jesus who didn't have a father was called by his mother's name.

The verse says (Free-minds translation): "But if you do not know their fathers, then, as your brothers in the system and your patrons", ç

so mother´s name would be the last option, even in the mother is always known but the father is not for sure (only the mother can know, and it depends on the case)  :-\ the law might enclose the presumption of paternity but reality is other thing.

Then it follows: "There is no sin upon you for what mistake you made by it; but you will be responsible for what your hearts deliberately intend. God is Forgiver, Merciful".

How can someone deliberately intend something by naming (call) a child?  :-\




 
Title: Re: Changing last name when getting married
Post by: Amra94 on July 15, 2019, 02:08:37 PM
The verse says (Free-minds translation): "But if you do not know their fathers, then, as your brothers in the system and your patrons", ç

so mother´s name would be the last option, even in the mother is always known but the father is not for sure (only the mother can know, and it depends on the case)  :-\ the law might enclose the presumption of paternity but reality is other thing.

Then it follows: "There is no sin upon you for what mistake you made by it; but you will be responsible for what your hearts deliberately intend. God is Forgiver, Merciful".

How can someone deliberately intend something by naming (call) a child?  :-\
But their hearts did intend to make that child their child by giving it their family's name. Except if it's just for legal purposes or something like that.