Free Minds

Community Needs => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Neptin on July 02, 2019, 01:22:37 AM

Title: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 02, 2019, 01:22:37 AM
1. January '19

Recall in January my thread on Qur'an support for Geocentric or Flat earth model of the universe. My sole intention was not necessarily to cite the Qur'an as wrong, it was to draw attention to what I find the Qur'an actually states Vs what people say the Qur'an states. My finding on the Qur'an left me doubting the heliocentric model, and for once I decided to consider the flat fixed earth argument.

What this post is about is not necessarily on the Qur'an, but on Muslims' approach to Qur'an, how this approach breed so much negativity that I've given up on the community, whether the Qur'an alone or traditional.


2. How do Muslims approach the Qur'an?

They view the Qur'an as;

The literal, infallible and perfectly preserved word of God.

This approach to Islam is WRONG as I will show, but it is also very toxic because all forms of Muslim fanaticism and terrorism is predicated on this view of the Qur'an.


3. Let's see a few verses of Qur'an.

Qur'an 96.02 -  Createth man from alaq.
Qur'an 23: 12-14 - Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a alaqa, then fashioned We the alaqa little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

3. Alaqa meaning in Arabic

One of the stages of embryo or fetus is an 'alaqa' or 'alaq', according to Qur'an. Here are the meanings of 'alaqa' in Arabic; 'something that clings', 'blood clot', 'leeches'.

4. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an in Muslim history

All through Muslim history, 'blood clot' have been generally agreed as the meaning of 'alaqa' in relation to embryology in Qur'an. This is so because, blood or clot was generally taught in the 7th century as an early stage of embryo during gestation. All the earliest tafsir agree. You can see why majority of Qur'an translation translate the term as clot.

As we all know, the implication of this is that the Qur'an verse is wrong. Never is the embryo a clot. But, the Qur'an cannot be wrong, because it is the literal, infallible and preserved word of God.

5. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an at 21st century

So, in the 20th century, when it was proven that the embryo is never blood, some Qur'an translators and Muslim scholars began to reconsider alternative meaning for the word 'alaqa'. "Leeches, leech like clot, clinging substance, embryo" are all words that scholars and translators have now referred to alaqa.

6. What does Alaqa really mean in Qur'an?

Whether we believe Qur'an meant 'alaqa' as blood clot or not is beside the point. Recall, we have always agreed the Qur'an is clear, that it delivers its message with pin point precision in choice of word. The point here is that Qur'an uses a word that also mean 'blood clot' to describe an embryonic stage. This negates the infallibility of the text, and thus the text's divinity or preservation.

NB: Also, see Qur'an 86:5-7, where it seemingly states that sex fluids or gametes comes out from 'between the backbone and the ribs.' This is incorrect.


7. What is wrong in the Muslim community

My problem with the Muslim community is just how much these concerns with the Qur'an are either overlooked or concealed from the public, in fear of raising doubts, in order to preserve the view of Qur'an infallibility.

8. Consequence of proclaiming the Qur'an is infallible

What happens when we approach the Qur'an as the infallible and perfect? We're inadvertently supporting the fanatics and terrorists. We may not agree with their interpretation of the Qur'an, but we agree with them that the Qur'an is infallible. This is enough green light for them to apply what ever they understand as Qur'anic; amputating thieves, slavery, offensive jihad, jizya, persecuting Qur'an critics or blasphemers, gender inequality in testimonies and inheritance  etc.

Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jane on July 02, 2019, 05:18:53 AM
Hi I don't think you're alone.  :)

I believe in the Qur'an but I don't believe it's infallible and the true word of God, not the current version we have on earth. I think the real scripture (Torah, Injeel and Qur'an) are all with God which is what it means when it says in the Qur'an "We will surely preserve the Revelations" but the versions we have on earth are corrupted.

It's nothing but arrogance of Muslims to declare that earlier scriptures have been corrupted but say the Qur'an has not. We're not supposed to make distinction between the messengers so why argue that God Himself did by presrving the later scripture but not the earlier? 'Qur'an-Alone Muslims' or 'Qur'anists' need to be careful not to turn the Qur'an into another idol by considering it to be perfect. I was guilty of that for many years actually.

It's nowhere near perfect. The sura order has been changed messing up the flow. The sura headings and Bismillah appear to be additions. As do Suras 1, 113 and 114 as they are apparently Du'a prayers that were added in. There's significant cross-over between the Qur'an and the Zoroastrian scriptures that needs investigation IMO.

We know that Caliph Uthman created the Qur'an as we know it, changing the order and destroying what didn't fit with his version. Since he was murdered I think that's a sign from God that He was angry with that. I think the original Qur'an as memorised by Muhammad will never be known again unfortunately.

I study the Old Testament inc. the Psalms and the Qur'an (never the New Testament which is mostly pro-Roman propaganda IMO) and try and work out from them what God wants us to understand; plus whatever I can get from trying to be aware of God to try and work out how God wants us to live.

I would call myself a Monotheist not a Muslim. Islam is a way of life that is mostly idol worship IMO. It doesn't describe me.  I still like talking and debating with Muslims, Qur'an-Alone or Regular, from time to time (although traditionalists tire my patience pretty quick). >:(

Maybe you could adopt a similar path?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 02, 2019, 06:17:03 AM
Peace Jane.
 Traditional Muslims do not follow Qoran. They claim they do, but they have other books more important to them like hadith books.
They only give lip service to Qoran.
As for the Qoran we have now ,one either looks at it deeper to study it  or gives it lip service and pretend to follow it like the Traditional Muslims or ditch it and not waste their time on it.

The real value of the true "Muslim" is their character and morals (Sirat Al Mustaqueem) and it does not depend on any other person or religion.. Following GOD Alone is givng up all other false relidgions, sects and bad /evil ways.

The bottom line is what is the message of Qoran about how should one lead their life here.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Wakas on July 02, 2019, 08:52:49 AM
peace Neptin, all,

As has been said before many Muslims have not read Quran (in a language they understand) and in reality they follow Quran + a mix of other sources. Not to mention there is an issue of sincerity/bias/etc.

1) When someone considers The Quran infallible it should be appreciated by them that only the Arabic Quran could be claimed to be infallible, NOT their understanding of it. As soon as a reader reads a text they automatically interpret it in their own mind and take away a certain understanding..... which may or not be accurate.

2) Quran itself contains internal self-checking mechanisms one can apply to their understanding, guidelines on how to study it etc Discussed here: http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html
Most interpreters do not apply these, or at least certainly not consistently.

If you are advocating it should be preached to them that Quran is fallible and this would mitigate the damage of their wayward interpretations then I dont think that will work because if they accept your argument Quran is fallible they wouldn't bother following it. I think it is better to educate them on what Quran itself says in terms of the two points above.


Lastly, The Quran verses examples you cited are poor, and these so-called problem verses have been discussed in the past.


edit: word in red, meant to say fallible, not infallible
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 02, 2019, 09:33:22 AM
Hi I don't think you're alone.  :)



It's nothing but arrogance of Muslims to declare that earlier scriptures have been corrupted but say the Qur'an has not. We're not supposed to make distinction between the messengers so why argue that God Himself did by presrving the later scripture but not the earlier? 'Qur'an-Alone Muslims' or 'Qur'anists' need to be careful not to turn the Qur'an into another idol by considering it to be perfect. I was guilty of that for many years actually.


It is not  muslims that declare that it is the books themselves that say it. The bible says it is not revealed by God, thoush some parts of it may be.

As to contents, sure the Bible is way oer the Qur'an from the vey beginning just that part where God makes a male human and then after the fact realises that the male is alone. It seems He hadn't thought of it before, and for the convenience of the male, He creates de female from a rib and the female is bad, becuse she is the one that leds poor male into the fall, and that is why God's as a punishments makes that women give birth painfully...

Really sublime, way, way over the Qur'an. And that is just the benginning.

Salaam 


Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 02, 2019, 09:49:14 AM
Hi I don't think you're alone.  :)

I believe in the Qur'an but I don't believe it's infallible and the true word of God, not the current version we have on earth. I think the real scripture (Torah, Injeel and Qur'an) are all with God which is what it means when it says in the Qur'an "We will surely preserve the Revelations" but the versions we have on earth are corrupted.

It's nothing but arrogance of Muslims to declare that earlier scriptures have been corrupted but say the Qur'an has not. We're not supposed to make distinction between the messengers so why argue that God Himself did by presrving the later scripture but not the earlier? 'Qur'an-Alone Muslims' or 'Qur'anists' need to be careful not to turn the Qur'an into another idol by considering it to be perfect. I was guilty of that for many years actually.

It's nowhere near perfect. The sura order has been changed messing up the flow. The sura headings and Bismillah appear to be additions. As do Suras 1, 113 and 114 as they are apparently Du'a prayers that were added in. There's significant cross-over between the Qur'an and the Zoroastrian scriptures that needs investigation IMO.

We know that Caliph Uthman created the Qur'an as we know it, changing the order and destroying what didn't fit with his version. Since he was murdered I think that's a sign from God that He was angry with that. I think the original Qur'an as memorised by Muhammad will never be known again unfortunately.

I study the Old Testament inc. the Psalms and the Qur'an (never the New Testament which is mostly pro-Roman propaganda IMO) and try and work out from them what God wants us to understand; plus whatever I can get from trying to be aware of God to try and work out how God wants us to live.

I would call myself a Monotheist not a Muslim. Islam is a way of life that is mostly idol worship IMO. It doesn't describe me.  I still like talking and debating with Muslims, Qur'an-Alone or Regular, from time to time (although traditionalists tire my patience pretty quick). >:(

Maybe you could adopt a similar path?

Thanks, I'd like the term 'monotheist', but I'd like to avoid 'identities' and focus on 'ideas' at this point. I feel the Christchurch mosque shooting and Sri Lankan Easter bombings is a warning to us all, that religious identities breed division, distrust and discrimination among us. We're divided enough on race, ethnicity, and nationality, we don't need to deepen this division with religion.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: spodacus on July 02, 2019, 11:07:23 AM
Salam,

The only message that the Qur'an is trying to convey are three things:
1. Allah (The God) is One
2. There is a Warning of a Day that we will be judged by Allah.
3. Live your life in such a way to please Allah on that Day (by giving to charity, standing up for others, etc...)

As far as I can see the Qur'an is very consistent on the only message it was sent to deliver. No where does it contradict itself that there is only One God or that there is an upcoming Day of Judgement or that you should help others in need through sadaqa.

I fail to see how the meaning of "alaaq"  or whether earth is flat/round changes the main message of the Book? If you want answers to scientific questions reference a science book. If you want guidance on how to live your life in a less than hedonistic way then reference Qur'an.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 02, 2019, 02:45:12 PM
Just to follow on from the statement that Uthman created Qoran, I find it odd that Uthman do not make such a claim in it. Rather the author/creator of Qoran says things like:

69:38
I swear by what you see.
69:39
And what you do not see.
69:40
This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
69:41
Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
69:42
Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
69:43
A revelation from the Lord of the universe.

  In fact Uthamn or any other human that dealt with Qoran have been told this:

69:44
Had he uttered any other teachings.
69:45
We would have punished him.
69:46
We would have stopped the revelations to him.
69:47
None of you could have helped him.
69:48
This is a reminder for the righteous.
69:49
We know; some of you are rejectors.
69:50
It is but sorrow for the disbelievers.
69:51
It is the absolute truth.
69:52
Therefore, you shall glorify the name of your Lord, Most Great.

A human created it indeed?!!!! Who?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 02, 2019, 03:58:31 PM
The Qur'an does not need to prove anything of itself if you read it or hear it or remember it and it helps, that is your proof. If it does not, then discard it for that reason but there is no use in attempting to shuffle the fault on imagined shortcomings of Qur'an. It is flawless, by itself, not because of this history or that history or because of gossiing about this or that, supposedly hisotrical or not.

The Qur'an is the proof of itself. If it does not convince you , then discard it, but what is the use of bringing up against it flimsy an whimsical gossip about it.

Just as any other book justifies itself by its contents or fails by its contents, the gossip about a book do not make it better or worse. If somebody cannot get something of a particular book and some other prople can, the answer is obvious. the failure is not of the book.

Salaam 
 
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 02, 2019, 06:37:43 PM
1. God alone or attitude of islam has nothing to do with any book (such as quran)
The evidence is within the quran itself it told stories of past people who are claimed as muslims but never read the quran.

2. It's true that some people has developed a syndrome of idolization of quran.
Yet it's a common pattern found within any human, it gives them a (false) sense of pride and formed a unique identity which can be used for bonding among them. A sort of criteria to be used to classify 'us' (believers) and 'them' (the unbelievers).

3. With this post; you're 'attacking' the idol within the lairs of it's idolators.
But I guess you know this already and already know what to expect too.. LOL
Yet as a social experiment, try posting the same thing in another group and you'll get the same response.
Try posting a statement that Bible is not infallible within Christian's forum, Torah is not infallible within Judaism forum or Liverpool FC is not the best football club in the world within Liverpool FC forum or Ali Jinnah is not infallible within Pakistani forum or Mao Zedong is not infallibe within Maoist forum or USA is not infallible within American nationalist forum and you'll get the same response.

4. Correlating the 'terrorist' with those who believe that quran (or any other things) as infallible is far fetched.
It's true that they share a common thing but it does not qualify the later to be equal to the before mentioned. Not all Liverpool FC fans are hooligans and not all Nazis / German Nationalist are murdering maniacs and not all white superiority are klux klux klan and not all Bible believers are Christians extremist.



Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 02, 2019, 10:28:08 PM
Peace.

1. God alone or attitude of islam has nothing to do with any book (such as quran)
The evidence is within the quran itself it told stories of past people who are claimed as muslims but never read the quran.

Have we not agreed that much as God alone is the primary message of the Qur'an, the Qur'an enjoins its readers to abide by its statutes for the maximum benefit?

Quote
2. It's true that some people has developed a syndrome of idolization of quran.
Yet it's a common pattern found within any human, it gives them a (false) sense of pride and formed a unique identity which can be used for bonding among them. A sort of criteria to be used to classify 'us' (believers) and 'them' (the unbelievers).

Agreed.

Quote
3. With this post; you're 'attacking' the idol within the lairs of it's idolators.
But I guess you know this already and already know what to expect too.. LOL
Yet as a social experiment, try posting the same thing in another group and you'll get the same response.
Try posting a statement that Bible is not infallible within Christian's forum, Torah is not infallible within Judaism forum or Liverpool FC is not the best football club in the world within Liverpool FC forum or Ali Jinnah is not infallible within Pakistani forum or Mao Zedong is not infallibe within Maoist forum or USA is not infallible within American nationalist forum and you'll get the same response.

Among Liverpool fans, American Nationalists and Pakistanis, they still admit that their idol is not perfect. Jews & Christians understand the limitation of the Bible or Torah, it is this awareness that paved way for secular democracy that have made the west habitable for Muslims.

Muslims don't see the weakness and limitation of the Qur'an because of the folks resorting to all kinds of re-interpretation bias to defend this very Qur'an that has been invoked to kill, amputate and oppress by the caliphs, the mullahs and mujahideens throughout Muslim history. This is bad, OK? This is just so sad, there is so much sadness everywhere here.

Quote
4. Correlating the 'terrorist' with those who believe that quran (or any other things) as infallible is far fetched.
It's true that they share a common thing but it does not qualify the later to be equal to the before mentioned. Not all Liverpool FC fans are hooligans and not all Nazis / German Nationalist are murdering maniacs and not all white superiority are klux klux klan and not all Bible believers are Christians extremist.

Well, if we admit that there are verses that are potentially wrong and the Qur'an cannot be said to be 100% the preserved, literal and infallible word of God, then you'll find less Muslims making death threat against blasphemers, less Muslim countries returning to hudud like Brunei, and Iran government may reconsider enforcing headscarf.

But if we're God/Qur'an alone Muslims who sit and undermine valid concerns about the Qur'an, based on our own personal or unilateral interpretation, and then maintain the Qur'an to be infallible, then we're contributing to fanaticism.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 02, 2019, 11:37:13 PM
"infallibl" is Church parlance it is nto Qur'n parlance. I have never up to these days here have I read ever about infallibility or fallibility in the Qur'an.

Who has invented this thing about infalllibility.

It goes to show that the colonisation os islam continues and far from diminishing is increasing.

Next what? Will we get  pope or a patriarch? And this Daesh and other garbage is an imperial plant, just like other operations inside countries, whereby you have a first a few protesters and in no time those "poor protesters" have become and armed "resistance" are imperial plants.

Of course mny muslims have let themselves be coloniased with nonsense from those beautiful religions of the west and the "history" they and canonize plces and so on, although they re picky about them and feel that some places ae less deserving thn others. How does colonising the Qur'an further help anyone?

But it seems that provided we get our "evil guy" to whip at no cost, for some it is Arab nationlism, for others Islam as they see it colonised, provided we get that acceptable persecuted, we are happy. Always find the right victim which lets you
let out your frustrations without solving them, and but it feels so good...

Then we protest about labelling whole groups, but tha us precisely the problem. Morally, spiritually there are no groups, the Qur'an, so fallible it is reeat that EACH PERSON stands alone, she will not share neither in the merits nor in the demerits of any other person, but we still find that we need that victim to lbame for everything and that victim has to be a group. Great!

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 03, 2019, 05:33:53 AM
Why should the Qoran be responsible for false religions? Is it the fault of Qoran that people misunderstand its message? Or is it the ignorance and arrogance of those who have agendas?
Qoran -the Arabic text- has been here over 1400 years, yet still people are divided about its sayings. Still sects are arguing and fighting each other and
claiming they are its true followers!

For example, throughout my time here. I am hearing brother jafar accuse anyone  claiming to follow Qoran that they idolise the book. Or does the book ask for idolising it? Is this not as bad as false religions if one is ignorant of what the book says?
 Surely one needs to have a look at the book and see for themselves what it is saying, don t they?

All the Qoran is saying to everyone is : Do not believe anything you have no knowledge of until you check it. You have been given the eyes, ears and brain to use for that.
So @ jafar and anyone else, these are the choices about Qoran:
1- study it with sincerity and find out without bias what it is saying.
2- Leave it be if  it is full of nonsense and rubbish.

It is irrelevant what others do, think /claim ...about the book and futile to comment on what we do not know for sure.

It is up to each individual to choose their path regardless of others.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: hawk99 on July 03, 2019, 07:31:22 PM
1. January '19

Recall in January my thread on Qur'an support for Geocentric or Flat earth model of the universe. My sole intention was not necessarily to cite the Qur'an as wrong, it was to draw attention to what I find the Qur'an actually states Vs what people say the Qur'an states. My finding on the Qur'an left me doubting the heliocentric model, and for once I decided to consider the flat fixed earth argument.

What this post is about is not necessarily on the Qur'an, but on Muslims' approach to Qur'an, how this approach breed so much negativity that I've given up on the community, whether the Qur'an alone or traditional.
So out of emotion your feelings were hurt.


2. How do Muslims approach the Qur'an?

They view the Qur'an as;

The literal, infallible and perfectly preserved word of God.

Try not to speak for me please.   :handshake:


This approach to Islam is WRONG as I will show, but it is also very toxic because all forms of Muslim fanaticism and terrorism is predicated on this view of the Qur'an.

Fanaticism and terrorism are not Qur'an based


3. Let's see a few verses of Qur'an.

Qur'an 96.02 -  Createth man from alaq.
Qur'an 23: 12-14 - Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a alaqa, then fashioned We the alaqa little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

3. Alaqa meaning in Arabic

One of the stages of embryo or fetus is an 'alaqa' or 'alaq', according to Qur'an. Here are the meanings of 'alaqa' in Arabic; 'something that clings', 'blood clot', 'leeches'.

4. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an in Muslim history

All through Muslim history, 'blood clot' have been generally agreed as the meaning of 'alaqa' in relation to embryology in Qur'an. This is so because, blood or clot was generally taught in the 7th century as an early stage of embryo during gestation. All the earliest tafsir agree. You can see why majority of Qur'an translation translate the term as clot.

As we all know, the implication of this is that the Qur'an verse is wrong. Never is the embryo a clot. But, the Qur'an cannot be wrong, because it is the literal, infallible and preserved word of God.

5. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an at 21st century

So, in the 20th century, when it was proven that the embryo is never blood, some Qur'an translators and Muslim scholars began to reconsider alternative meaning for the word 'alaqa'. "Leeches, leech like clot, clinging substance, embryo" are all words that scholars and translators have now referred to alaqa.

6. What does Alaqa really mean in Qur'an?

Whether we believe Qur'an meant 'alaqa' as blood clot or not is beside the point. Recall, we have always agreed the Qur'an is clear, that it delivers its message with pin point precision in choice of word. The point here is that Qur'an uses a word that also mean 'blood clot' to describe an embryonic stage. This negates the infallibility of the text, and thus the text's divinity or preservation.

NB: Also, see Qur'an 86:5-7, where it seemingly states that sex fluids or gametes comes out from 'between the backbone and the ribs.' This is incorrect.


Hilarious, you mean to tell me that the interpretation of the word alaqa
determines if the ayats about how to live a righteous life and the wisdom
contained throughout the book are to be discarded because of the
interpretation of the word alaqa.   :wow



7. What is wrong in the Muslim community

My problem with the Muslim community is just how much these concerns with the Qur'an are either overlooked or concealed from the public, in fear of raising doubts, in order to preserve the view of Qur'an infallibility.

8. Consequence of proclaiming the Qur'an is infallible

What happens when we approach the Qur'an as the infallible and perfect? We're inadvertently supporting the fanatics and terrorists.
We may not agree with their interpretation of the Qur'an, but we agree with them that the Qur'an is infallible. This is enough green light for them to apply what ever they understand as Qur'anic; amputating thieves, slavery, offensive jihad, jizya, persecuting Qur'an critics or blasphemers, gender inequality in testimonies and inheritance  etc.

How could you possibly conflate the two.   :brickwall:
I read a book, shaytayn reads the same book somehow
that's a "green light" for his sins, you really, really need to
get an education sorry for being so blunt.

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 03, 2019, 11:50:20 PM
Again, what is this unfallible speaking of a book which is already there, completed.

Do you mean it contins things that are wrong? Point them out nd of course that will be your opinion, unless you prove they are wrong.

I have not yet seen any proof of anything pointed out as wrong int he Qur'an as wrong. I can remember that people take what others say the Qur'an says and then attribute it to the Qur'an and say it is wrong. And when I have verified, it is the ttributers who are wrong.

So finally it come sto that, those who react to other people are not really faithful to themselves, simple react. They spent all their srength reacting. So their struggle is meaningless. Get tired for nothing.

Salaam 

And other than that anything else
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jane on July 04, 2019, 06:42:56 AM
A lot of Qur'an-Aloners seem to be holding on to the Sunni belief that the Qur'an has been divinely preserved because it is special. Some Sunnis believe the Qur'an itself has magic powers! It's just silliness.

The Qur'an as revealed to Muhammad (if that really was his real name 'cause we don't actually know) was perfect but what we've got now is nowhere near the same thing. Believers want to know God's word so it's not to be abandoned I think but we should be focusing on working out which parts of it are original and which have been added in. I personally suspect Muhammad's night journey and Laylat Al Qadr are additions as they make no sense, don't fit with the Shar Ramadan story of when the Qur'an was revealed AND they are very similar to pre-Muhammad pagan beliefs. It's important we get to the bottom of how much the Qur'an has been corrupted.

Traditional Muslims could assist with this but instead are resisting by clinging to the belief that the Qur'an is perfect and unchanged. Saying it's the translations that are wrong but the original Arabic is perfect is bizarre since there are 5 different Qur'an versions used I believe and the Arabic text differs between them. Which one of these is the real one then?? You can see why Neptin is frustrated.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 04, 2019, 09:07:29 AM
A lot of Qur'an-Aloners seem to be holding on to the Sunni belief that the Qur'an has been divinely preserved because it is special. Some Sunnis believe the Qur'an itself has magic powers! It's just silliness.

The Qur'an as revealed to Muhammad (if that really was his real name 'cause we don't actually know) was perfect but what we've got now is nowhere near the same thing. Believers want to know God's word so it's not to be abandoned I think but we should be focusing on working out which parts of it are original and which have been added in. I personally suspect Muhammad's night journey and Laylat Al Qadr are additions as they make no sense, don't fit with the Shar Ramadan story of when the Qur'an was revealed AND they are very similar to pre-Muhammad pagan beliefs. It's important we get to the bottom of how much the Qur'an has been corrupted.

Traditional Muslims could assist with this but instead are resisting by clinging to the belief that the Qur'an is perfect and unchanged. Saying it's the translations that are wrong but the original Arabic is perfect is bizarre since there are 5 different Qur'an versions used I believe and the Arabic text differs between them. Which one of these is the real one then?? You can see why Neptin is frustrated.

The fct that you put the Bible at he same level as the Qur'an as far as authenticity is concerned does not speak very favourably of your criteria in this matter, in fact is weird. With the worst wishes of the antiQur'nic crowd, there are very, very, very very slight differences between those different Qur'ans you speak about, why don't you list them here ans quote them in arabic? We could see what is their real import. What do they change? Is there in any of them something shocking like the Eve story in the Bible, o what are those horrible and unberble differences? On the other hand clearly the one which is older and no record of it having been changed is the one overwhwelmy used.

So please, quote that unbearable content of the Qur'an that we cannot approve because it is plainly  inmoral, contradictory, etc.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 04, 2019, 10:47:04 AM
Have we not agreed that much as God alone is the primary message of the Qur'an, the Qur'an enjoins its readers to abide by its statutes for the maximum benefit?

I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?

Quote
Among Liverpool fans, American Nationalists and Pakistanis, they still admit that their idol is not perfect. Jews & Christians understand the limitation of the Bible or Torah, it is this awareness that paved way for secular democracy that have made the west habitable for Muslims.

Not all liverpool fans, nationalist (any countries), jews and christians admit that their idol is not perfect and might be offended when they hear someone said as such.

Yet some of them do.

And not all Muslims believe that their idol is perfect either, which paved way for secular democracy that have made the #1 Muslim majority country habitable for Non-Muslims.

Quote
Well, if we admit that there are verses that are potentially wrong and the Qur'an cannot be said to be 100% the preserved, literal and infallible word of God, then you'll find less Muslims making death threat against blasphemers, less Muslim countries returning to hudud like Brunei, and Iran government may reconsider enforcing headscarf.

Your correlation is unproven, less people within a sect / group which admit that their idol is not perfect doesn't mean less violence happening within such sect / group.

Quote
But if we're God/Qur'an alone Muslims who sit and undermine valid concerns about the Qur'an, based on our own personal or unilateral interpretation, and then maintain the Qur'an to be infallible, then we're contributing to fanaticism.

First, God alone is not the same as Quran alone.

Second you got one thing right, fanaticism is the root cause.

What does Christian Extremist, Islam Terrorist, KKK, Murdering Nazis, Liverpool Hooligans, Murdering Maoist, Murdering Leninist, Murdering Zionist, Murdering Arab Nationalist have in common?
1. Extreme level of pride (read: fanaticism) about their identity and idol. Their identity uber alles, their idol uber alles.
2. Hatred towards anyone who do not share the same identity which they labeled as their 'enemy'.
3. Hatred towards anyone who do not share the same opinion / belief as they do.

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Noon waalqalami on July 04, 2019, 11:01:07 AM
1. January '19
21:30 ان anna i.e. an inna (that indeed)
21:31 روسى high peaks ان an (that) تمىد shake بهم with them
21:32 السما the sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard/protective of
21:33 والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. everything mentioned prior) فى in فلك ship/orbit ىسبحون sailing


Quote
2. How do Muslims approach the Qur'an?
3. Alaqa meaning in Arabic
4. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an in Muslim history
5. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an at 21st century
6. What does Alaqa really mean in Qur'an?

7th century only have few old manuscripts; blood clot made up hundreds of years later.

96:2 علق alaqin/clinging substance

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
علق
It hung to it; it was, or became, suspended to it
[and] it clung, caught, clave, adhered, held, or stuck fast, to it

4:129 كالمعلقه kal-mu’alaqati/like the one dangles
One of oldest manuscripts: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47 dated 606-652, CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/129/handschrift/73
translation: (https://i.postimg.cc/hPBR8Gw5/ch4v129-37.jpg)


Quote
Qur'an 86:5-7... and the ribs.

word is not ribs/dulue and obviously points to place from which fluid emits, nothing spectacular.
86:7 والترىب wal-taraibi

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- حَبَتِ الأَضْلَاعُ إِلَى الصُّلْبِ The ribs joined to the backbone

A poet says
رَكِبْنَاهَا سَمَانَتَهَا فَلَمَّا
بَدَتْ مِنْهَا السَّنَاسِنُ وَالضُّلُوعُ
” (IAar, M, L,) meaning We rode her during her state of fatness, or plumpness, [but when the edges of her vertebræ, and the ribs, became apparent, ...]

Quote
7. What is wrong in the Muslim community
8. Consequence of proclaiming the Qur'an is infallible
... amputating thieves, slavery, offensive jihad, jizya, persecuting Qur'an critics or blasphemers, gender inequality in testimonies and inheritance  etc.

the vast majority is clueless parroting verses as are those who parrot the parrots cannot read/comprehend a thing even simple stuff e.g. still no takers; open book, internet, call a friend or whoever ...

Here's a test anyone who answers all six correctly – I’ll send a gift card $600 prize!

peace!
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 05, 2019, 11:31:34 PM
21:30 ان anna i.e. an inna (that indeed)
21:31 روسى high peaks ان an (that) تمىد shake بهم with them
21:32 السما the sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard/protective of
21:33 والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. everything mentioned prior) فى in فلك ship/orbit ىسبحون sailing

When I read the verse, I get no impression that that earth is among the orbiting bodies. This verse again is repeated in 36:40, still no sign of earth orbit or rotation. "Sun, moon, night & day" are the objects mentioned.


Quote
7th century only have few old manuscripts; blood clot made up hundreds of years later.

96:2 علق alaqin/clinging substance

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
علق
It hung to it; it was, or became, suspended to it
[and] it clung, caught, clave, adhered, held, or stuck fast, to it

4:129 كالمعلقه kal-mu’alaqati/like the one dangles
One of oldest manuscripts: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47 dated 606-652, CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/129/handschrift/73
translation: (https://i.postimg.cc/hPBR8Gw5/ch4v129-37.jpg)

How can we be sure of this? You're basically saying the word meant "clinging substance" at the time of Muhammad but later on Arabs began to refer to the word as blood clot.

Valid point, but it raises further question on the clarity and thus preservation of Qur'an. It mean that even if Qur'an is preserved, the Arabic language is not. And if Arabic language and vocabulary continue to change through the ages, then the specific meanings of words in the Qur'an might've been lost or confounded with other meanings that developed over time.

I've also seen valid arguments why "clinging substance" is unlikely to be the meaning of "alaq" in these verses. But I won't post them here because the purpose of this thread is not to convince anyone what the Qur'an means, but to prove that the Qur'an can in fact be misleading. Erroneous understanding of the reality may be deduced from it, however objective and rational the readers think they are. As such it cannot be said with certainty to be the literal, preserved & infallible word of God.

Quote
word is not ribs/dulue and obviously points to place from which fluid emits, nothing spectacular.
86:7 والترىب wal-taraibi

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- حَبَتِ الأَضْلَاعُ إِلَى الصُّلْبِ The ribs joined to the backbone

A poet says
رَكِبْنَاهَا سَمَانَتَهَا فَلَمَّا
بَدَتْ مِنْهَا السَّنَاسِنُ وَالضُّلُوعُ
” (IAar, M, L,) meaning We rode her during her state of fatness, or plumpness, [but when the edges of her vertebræ, and the ribs, became apparent, ...]

What is taraib, then? I've found from a few sources these meanings; ribs, sternum, chest, the two legs, the two arms or two eyes. Basically, we don't know. Taraib could mean any of these different anatomical parts. This is a legit concern.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 06, 2019, 12:05:21 AM
I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?

God alone is not the only message of Qur'an. There are statutes spelt out for Muslims to live by.

Quote
Not all liverpool fans, nationalist (any countries), jews and christians admit that their idol is not perfect and might be offended when they hear someone said as such.

Yet some of them do.

And not all Muslims believe that their idol is perfect either, which paved way for secular democracy that have made the #1 Muslim majority country habitable for Non-Muslims.

I don't think any Muslim today believe the Qur'an to be less than perfect, all the verses are considered perfect by Muslims.

What paved way for the democracy in Indonesia was the authoritarian regime preceding it. If there Muslims that regarded the Qur'an unfit as modern constitution, it is clear that these were only the elites or ruling class.

Also, how democratic is Indonesia now? Wasn't it in Indonesia a Christian governor(Ahok) was tried and imprison for allegedly insulting Qur'an? Isn't it in Aceh, Indonesia, that religious police patrol the street to ensure everyone complies with "Islamic morals"?

Democracy in Indonesia, like other Muslim countries feel like some thing that is thrust on the people, not something that developed organically. It is majoritocracy.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Wakas on July 06, 2019, 04:05:41 AM
RE: taraib

Background:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1159.msg5263#msg5263
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7.htm


Just because a word, only used once in Quran, could theoretically have several meanings and translators cannot agree on which particular meaning has no bearing whatsoever on Quran's claim being "clear", "detailed" etc. Being clear and detailed does not mean people can only interpret every single thing in it only one way. Quran even acknowledges variant understandings will exist and addresses this issue, see link in my earlier post.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: ade_cool on July 06, 2019, 08:19:59 AM
The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 06, 2019, 02:55:55 PM
The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible

I
ndeed
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 06, 2019, 03:45:28 PM
God alone is not the only message of Qur'an. There are statutes spelt out for Muslims to live by.

True... yet oddly enough, Quran never endorsed Quran alone..  :rotfl:

And God alone, as the name implied, doesn't have any correlation with books, any books.

Quote
I don't think any Muslim today believe the Qur'an to be less than perfect, all the verses are considered perfect by Muslims.

Dig further, ask further why it's perfect.. and you'll hear weird answers...

It's again.. common... most of the times people are just parroting what they often hear.
Which is the #1 reason why advertising and propaganda works..

Why iPhone is perfect? I dunno, because everyone else said so....

Tell something (whether it's lie or truth doesn't matter) often enough, it will believed to be truthful.

Quote
What paved way for the democracy in Indonesia was the authoritarian regime preceding it. If there Muslims that regarded the Qur'an unfit as modern constitution, it is clear that these were only the elites or ruling class.

What paved way for Secularism in Indonesia was diversity.

Quote
Also, how democratic is Indonesia now? Wasn't it in Indonesia a Christian governor(Ahok) was tried and imprison for allegedly insulting Qur'an? Isn't it in Aceh, Indonesia, that religious police patrol the street to ensure everyone complies with "Islamic morals"?

More democratic than commonly perceived. Not perfect definitely.. but less bigotry and more democratic compared to other Muslim majority countries, or many other Christian majority or Atheist countries for that matter.

I wouldn't dig on those two examples, as those two unique cases are unique, yet those are just small cases compared to the bigger whole.

Quote
Democracy in Indonesia, like other Muslim countries feel like some thing that is thrust on the people, not something that developed organically. It is majoritocracy.

In case you haven't noticed, democracy is a majoritocracy... majority rules.. for good or for worse..

Yet what I believe you should strive against are Bigotry and Fanaticism.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 07, 2019, 03:36:51 AM
Quote from Jafar:

True... yet oddly enough, Quran never endorsed Quran alone.. 

Expand on this statement please. Does this not contradict your quote:
6:19-6:20
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this QORAN has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

i.e Qoran alone!!!

Those to whom we have given the scripture recognize this as they recognize their own children. The ones who lose their souls are those who do not believe.
It seems you overlooked this:
6:21:
Who is more evil than one who lies about God, or rejects His revelations?...

Any way brother:
Wa Idha Dakarta Rabbaka Fi QORAN WAHDAHU Wallaw Ala Adbarihim Nufura…

When you remember GOD through Qoran Alone.....You may reflect?
GOD bless you Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 08, 2019, 09:18:27 AM

i.e Qoran alone!!!

When you remember GOD through Qoran Alone.....You may reflect?

Then how about those who were born and died before the Quran was being written?

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 08, 2019, 11:27:13 AM
There were othe things, there have always been other things, all over the world amonst all peoples.

Let us say that the Qur'an is very ergonomic, handy... It is very helpful, even if you still have all the choice of other things all over the world and the ages, always of course being aware that not everything that is called holy or revealed may be so or entirely so. Jusgement is always required.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 09, 2019, 03:36:48 AM
There were othe things, there have always been other things, all over the world amonst all peoples.

Let us say that the Qur'an is very ergonomic, handy... It is very helpful, even if you still have all the choice of other things all over the world and the ages, always of course being aware that not everything that is called holy or revealed may be so or entirely so. Jusgement is always required.


Exactly,
God's guidance and revelation is endless, delivered through unlimited channels to everyone or everything if you count the aliens as well.. and it never ends..

There's no such thing as God's revelation has ended and/or God only send out guidance / revelation to a specific group of people thus making him/them as the ultimate broker to God and / or the most enlightened among men (or aliens).

What you all need to do to receive God's revelation is to just ASK, and you will receive it.. although you might not like the revelation.. that is the essence / core of God alone's attitude.

Q: Mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all?
A: Definitely not you...

Truth and revelation sometimes hurts...


Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 09, 2019, 05:27:02 AM
Peace Jafar.
You say, quote:

Then how about those who were born and died before the Quran was being written?

The fact remains neither you nor me were born before the Qoran.
So the issue about Qoran remains  and stays as long as Qoran does.
And either one ignores it or studies it deeper.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 09, 2019, 12:03:41 PM
And either one ignores it or studies it deeper.

Feel free to study any books, infact I recommend anyone to study as much books or sources as he/she can.

But the revelation will come directly from God nonetheless, it doesn't matter on which books that one studied or not studied.
God's revelation came through unlimited number of channels
Just ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find.

And that's how people who lived before Quran (or Jesus incase you're christian or Torah incase you're Judaism) received their revelation, directly from the source through myriad of means.

The hardest part is actually the aftermath, when the revelation does come and you might not like it as you need to admit that I was wrong or I made a mistake. Certainly we will all made mistakes, the hardest part is how we learn from it.
Learning can only be achieved through mistakes, without the capability of realizing our own mistakes we will not be able to learn.

It's very hard to swallow our own ego. That is actually the real challenge to become muslim (the attitude and not the religion), it requires a hefty doze of humility and sacrificing of our own ego.
As our ego / identity in this life are temporary anyway, we were born at specific point in time and we will die at specific point in time, thus we will be forced to sacrifice our ego and current identity when it's time for us to leave.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 11, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
Peace Jafar.

Studying a book  so one is not making assumptions about it or relying on what others make of it is all I am asking you to do with Qoran. If you want.
Your choice.
If you are receiving revelations not to do that  that is fine by me also.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 11, 2019, 07:17:51 AM
Peace Jafar.

Studying a book  so one is not making assumptions about it or relying on what others make of it is all I am asking you to do with Qoran. If you want.
Your choice.
If you are receiving revelations not to do that  that is fine by me also.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace, goodlogic; there is a fallacy behind your proposition to study the Qur'an, deeper and objectively to understand its meaning. This is the ambiguity fallacy.

What in the world is "study the Qur'an deeper & objectively"? Every Muslim theologian in history, all the muftis in Saudi Arabia, or ayatollahs of Iran, or talibans of Pakistan/Afghanistan claimed to "study the Qur'an both deeply and objectively".

The truth is, the Qur'an was sent to lay and illiterate Arabs. When the Qur'an was recited to them, it was clear enough they understood what it meant. They didn't study the Qur'an, they listened to it. Repeatedly, the Qur'an insist on its clarity. It shouldn't be rocket science.

Lastly, I'd like to touch on huruf and co.'s assertion that the "Qur'an is perfect but it is our interpretation that is imperfect."

Look, how do we know Qur'an is perfect if our interpretation of Qur'an is not perfect? You can't conclude some thing is perfect unless you reach the perfect interpretation of it.

Another truth, the only reason why we tend to downplay concerns about flaws of the Qur'an is because we believe it is the book of God, and as such we're biased in its favor. If the Qur'an is believed to be the book of man like the US constitution or Sumerian literature, none would dismiss concerns of its flaws so confidently.

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 11, 2019, 09:42:54 AM
Well you find the Qur'an "imperfect", that is your business and your miss, not mine. But it is no use saying that those who are satisfied with Qur'an it is because they have some flaw, or are pejudiced whereas you are not flawed and are not prejudiced. Very nice of you to point out our shortcomings.

Still, shortcomings or not, you miss something, we don't.

I loose nothing because you do not benefit from Qur'an but you do miss something if you do not benefit from Qur'an instead of benefitting, however clever you may feel you are and however dumb or incapable of discerning  you may feel we are, which, by the way, I could not care less whether you call us that or whatever you fancy we should be so that you feel vindicated in your own misfeelings twoard Qur'an.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 11, 2019, 11:11:44 AM
Another truth, the only reason why we tend to downplay concerns about flaws of the Qur'an is because we believe it is the book of God, and as such we're biased in its favor. If the Qur'an is believed to be the book of man like the US constitution or Sumerian literature, none would dismiss concerns of its flaws so confidently.

Make sense, and it's the best approach.
Judge the book by it's content and not it's cover.
Regardless who the author was, who the publisher was.

That's why I think the best books for Quranist to read is not the Quran, but other books such as but not limited to: Gospel, Torah, Tao The Ching, Veda or even today's books. As such they will read the book objectively, they will take what is good from such material and ignore what is bad without any fear that the God will be angry at them or torture them in the afterlife.

And by the way, one should ponder on the true motives of the claim that certain materials (book, ebook, stone tablet, clay tablet) was actually written by God. Why they even bothered to make such claim? As truth is truth regardless of the source and BS is BS.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 11, 2019, 02:38:57 PM
In this forum may be there is some qura'nists, but there are also some gods, because they know all about the people, they know what they have read, what they feel what they know why they read...

Congratulations ladies and gentlemen Gods of this forum who know all and know how to teach to the dumb readers of Qur'an that have the audacity of not disparaing the Qur'an and the gods do.

Salaam, gods and men
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 12, 2019, 03:50:13 AM
Peace Neptin.
First this, your quote:

Peace, goodlogic; there is a fallacy behind your proposition to study the Qur'an, deeper and objectively to understand its meaning. This is the ambiguity fallacy.

Then do not study it. Your choice.

Then this  your other quote:

The truth is, the Qur'an was sent to lay and illiterate Arabs. When the Qur'an was recited to them, it was clear enough they understood what it meant. They didn't study the Qur'an, they listened to it. Repeatedly, the Qur'an insist on its clarity. It shouldn't be rocket science.

Where do you get "illiterate" Arabs from? If it is from " Ummiyun", then I disagree .It does not mean illiterates . Like all other races, Arabs included all sorts of different characters from illiterates to geniuses when Qoran appeared.

"Iqraa" means read and ponder/study ,not just read. GOD taught with "Al Qualami- The pen- Man what man did not know.. If only the word listen was used properly, you would realise from listening one is required to pick the best knowledge/advice....-Yastamiuna Al Quawl Fa Yattabihuna Ahsanahu-

Anyway, you are entitled to just listen and believe what you want brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 12, 2019, 04:28:28 AM
Yes, neptin and others, are entitled to believe whatever they fancy not only about the Qur'an and God an rocket science, but also about other people who do not happen to join them in their reveries about the inadequacy or wrongess or whatever they fancy saying of the Qur'an when they fancy. To them e are fanatics, indoctrinated, not have read anything else but just the Qur'an therefore we are helpless and dumb and... keep adding compliments
the list.

Depending on what list, their list of reading matter proposed to us dumb Qur'an worshippers is indeed short. There are many more interestig thing than those they have listed, but what do we know? Only those know anything who have the superiority to put the Qur'an in its place.

It reminds me of Max Stirner but the wrong, wrong way.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 12, 2019, 06:01:21 AM
Sister huruf, this is very similar of what Qoran is saying to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7fZoDs9KU

That is one of the examples I can give  Jafar and Neptin , if they wish to dig deep to find out about Qoran.

I will add that one needs to look both inward and outward when investigating to make sure of the balance.

Easy to label and make assumptions ,very hard to stop and ponder all reasons.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: hawk99 on July 12, 2019, 07:03:43 AM
God alone is not the only message of Qur'an. There are statutes spelt out for Muslims to live by.


True, guidance is the thing, to live the good life!


I don't think

Learn how to.   :handshake:


I don't think any Muslim today believe the Qur'an to be less than perfect, all the verses are considered perfect by Muslims.

 

Here you go again!  Stop speaking for others    :brickwall:

In this forum may be there is some qura'nists, but there are also some gods, because they know all about the people, they know what they have read, what they feel what they know why they read...

Congratulations ladies and gentlemen Gods of this forum who know all and know how to teach to the dumb readers of Qur'an that have the audacity of not disparaing the Qur'an and the gods do.

Salaam, gods and men

 :)  :D  ;D


Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jane on July 13, 2019, 05:52:59 AM
The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible

When they were sent down yes. Now they have all been corrupted. The Qur'an is corrupted just like the Torah. It's wishful thinking to claim it was preserved over 1,400 years. We will probably never know the true words of God. We can read the scriptures but we must maintain an open mind and rely on our conscience to lead the way.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 13, 2019, 06:17:39 AM
Again, Jane, please point out which words of the Qur'an are corrupted and why you think they are corrupted.

Speculation and conjecture, even if they are yours, are nogurantee of anything. What I have seen of Qur'an tells me that people get of out of it what htey are able to get and it does not depend so mucho on the Qur'an but ontheir own whims or prejudice, just as it happens with any other reading. But since you are affiring this in an infallible way, please show us exactly what you say that is wrong. Not all of it if you think that it is thousands of things, but just point out some and explain why it is wrong.

You must understand that if we are objective and systematically examine what we are told to see whether it is right or not, what you say is subject to the same objectivity. Your opinion of Qur'an and mine differ so please point out any of those corruptions you mean are in the Qur'an.

By the way, do you read the Qur'an in Arabic or translations?

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jane on July 13, 2019, 06:34:08 AM
The fct that you put the Bible at he same level as the Qur'an as far as authenticity is concerned does not speak very favourably of your criteria in this matter, in fact is weird. With the worst wishes of the antiQur'nic crowd, there are very, very, very very slight differences between those different Qur'ans you speak about, why don't you list them here ans quote them in arabic? We could see what is their real import. What do they change? Is there in any of them something shocking like the Eve story in the Bible, o what are those horrible and unberble differences? On the other hand clearly the one which is older and no record of it having been changed is the one overwhwelmy used.

So please, quote that unbearable content of the Qur'an that we cannot approve because it is plainly  inmoral, contradictory, etc.

Salaam

You only think the Qur'an is preserved whilst the Torah was corrupted because you grew up hearing that. Muslims tell themselves that the Qur'an has been preserved because they want to believe God is on their side.

I only speak English. I've read both Rashad Khalifa's and the Monotheist Group translation all the way through. I read ongoing debates about the exact translation. I also read what Arabic speakers have to say about the finer points of some verses to try and get the exact meaning. It appears there are minor differences with major implications between the different Quran versions.

An Arabic speaker discusses it here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlb81KCvYFA#

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BwSkDXXpNSI#

So far I find contradictory: God says he sent it down to Muhammad yet we are also told that Muhammad went on a night journey up to heaven to get it. Why up AND down. We're told it happened on 1 night, a blessed night, yet instructed to fast a few days. Why a few days if it was just one night?? Why does God say he doesn't forgive idol worship yet says he forgives ALL sins? He doesn't forgive idol worship yet says he forgave the Israelites after they worshipped the golden calf in Moses' absence. That was idol worship!

Why the punishment of flogging for fornication yet also the punishment of house arrest for women who commit lewdness. Why both? What type of lewdness is not fornication. Are we to lock women up for life for flirting? Not dressing modestly? How is this right. Why 100 lashes for both men and women yet a woman's testimony is half that of a man. Are we half or equal or what? A man's body can withstand 100 lashes much better than a woman's, how is it fair that they both receive 100. Why not 50 for the woman since she is half that of a man? God is supposed to be compassionate. What if she's pregnant from the fornication. DOES ANYONE REALLY WANT TO SEE A PREGNANT WOMAN GET LASHED 100 TIMES IN PUBLIC??? Should we wait until after she's had the baby? Now she's traumatised and let's imagine she develops depression and rejects the baby and so we have to give it to someone else to raise. It's ridiculous. And don't even get me started on 4:34. These verses encourage hostility and misery between people. They're from men not from God.

The surah order was changed by Uthman. We know that. The surah order is not from God yet we're supposed to believe the content is 100% from God? FFS wake up.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 13, 2019, 09:56:50 AM
You have the most sorriest of answers, are you God, that you take it that I have grown up hearing this or that? You really are prejudiced.

You do not know me but you fabricate me a life. You could have guessed right, but as it happens you are dowright wrong. You missed completely. You are not so good at being god and knowing everything. Seing as you speak about me without knowing  anything, I do not feel inclined to trust your criteria for the Qur'an or anything else.

I grew up christian reading and hearing the bible, nothing absolutely of the Qur'an.

Most of the thing syou mentionned are dealt with in this forum you just have to search and see different analysis the ones you are renering inyou rmail ar bullshit. Almost everything has been dealt with here.

And really you arevery brave, not knowing arabic and pontificating the way you do.

Also, are you sure you read in Qur'an that Muhammad undetook the night journey to get the Qur'an. I have never met, that although other things you mentiona I have encountered but of course most of the "the Qur'an says this" which ar enot the Qur'an itself are self serving for those who made that up.

Some things you put as contradictions are lack of familiarity ith simbolical or spiritual language. And that does not matter whther it is the Qur'an or the Popol Vuh.

Also, I am surprised that given you cannot read the Arabic Qur'an that you feel yourself invested of so much authority as to pontificate so universally on Qur'an, you might be more modest and say that that is your feeling, which would be perfectly respectable.

There is however some excuse for your problems, certainly ost translations contain real aberrations, because of adhering to self serving modfiications of the original or lack of care and  throughness in the translation work. But for that there is also the critical spirit which no person really interested in finding out things which are important for her can rennounce.


Salaam 
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Layth on July 13, 2019, 11:46:59 AM
Dear Jane.

I have read your posts and find all of them are refutable. The study of the Quran is not to be a rushed job - otherwise you end up with the doubt that you currently carry (Quran itself says ?do not rush with the Quran?).

If you would like to break down the points we can discuss them one at a time.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 13, 2019, 07:32:18 PM
You have the most sorriest of answers, are you God, that you take it that I have grown up hearing this or that? You really are prejudiced.

You do not know me but you fabricate me a life. You could have guessed right, but as it happens you are dowright wrong. You missed completely. You are not so good at being god and knowing everything. Seing as you speak about me without knowing  anything, I do not feel inclined to trust your criteria for the Qur'an or anything else.

I grew up christian reading and hearing the bible, nothing absolutely of the Qur'an.

Most of the thing syou mentionned are dealt with in this forum you just have to search and see different analysis the ones you are renering inyou rmail ar bullshit. Almost everything has been dealt with here.

And really you arevery brave, not knowing arabic and pontificating the way you do.

Also, are you sure you read in Qur'an that Muhammad undetook the night journey to get the Qur'an. I have never met, that although other things you mentiona I have encountered but of course most of the "the Qur'an says this" which ar enot the Qur'an itself are self serving for those who made that up.

Some things you put as contradictions are lack of familiarity ith simbolical or spiritual language. And that does not matter whther it is the Qur'an or the Popol Vuh.

Also, I am surprised that given you cannot read the Arabic Qur'an that you feel yourself invested of so much authority as to pontificate so universally on Qur'an, you might be more modest and say that that is your feeling, which would be perfectly respectable.

There is however some excuse for your problems, certainly ost translations contain real aberrations, because of adhering to self serving modfiications of the original or lack of care and  throughness in the translation work. But for that there is also the critical spirit which no person really interested in finding out things which are important for her can rennounce.


Salaam

Peace. Even if you were a convert, you still retain the capacity for "my side bias" on the Qur'an. And this is what Jane is stating.

As to some of the issues she has raised, they are valid. You have to be a Muslim to turn down several concerns with the Qur'an. If you're just a random fellow that pick the Qur'an and read it without the assumption that is the Book of God, chances are that you'd be confused and unconvinced. Yes, I know there are exceptions, and you are one of these.

Now, you say some of the issues she raised here have been dealt with in previous thread. But how? There are plenty of these threads that seek to re-interpret verses. Sometimes, they do well, but many times they just come up with alternative interpretation that remain debatable, not definite, and prove the Qur'an is not clear.

Still recall diamentinehoneybunch? Remember her last thread here concerning her difficulties with the Qur'an & how all attempts to resolve them failed? She is now a deist.

Now, since you say you were a Christian who read the Qur'an and was convinced, how do you account for the contradictions between the Bible and Qur'an. There are lots of them. And don't say the Bible was corrupted because the Qur'an never spelt this. The Qur'an ask the Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures and should have forewarned us of any tampering in the future.

Here are a few issues between Qur'an & Bible

Abraham delivered from the city or the fire?
Sister of Aaron, Mary or Miriam?

Let's go back to science. I believe science is a fair yardstick to evaluate the scriptures that claim to be literal word of God. Read the following verses and decide whether the atmosphere(heaven) is a solid mass or a space of gaseous matter: 22:63, 22:65, 25:25, 50.6.

Lastly, about the preservation of Qur'an. Are you aware of the absence of diacritic and vowel marks in the earliest manuscripts?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 13, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
When they were sent down yes. Now they have all been corrupted. The Qur'an is corrupted just like the Torah.

Sent down from where?
All books, ebooks, stone tablet, clay tablet, iPad are "Made In Planet Earth".

Historical fact:
It was the Sumerian who first came up with the idea that The Gods wrote laws on Tablet and "sent it down" from Heaven with delivery address to the high priest or king. The high priest / king then can say that I have received this law written on the tablet from The Gods and it's applicable from this point on within my realm. Dare not to question it's legality and validity as it's after all sent down from the Heaven as those who dare to do so shall face the wrath of the Gods.

Quote
It's wishful thinking to claim it was preserved over 1,400 years. We will probably never know the true words of God. We can read the scriptures but we must maintain an open mind and rely on our conscience to lead the way.

Yes there is a way to know the "true words of God", all you need to do is ASK and He will answer, through billions of channels and means. Everyone have direct access to Him. That's how revelation works and revelation did not stop 1400 years ago it's still actively going on up until today and far to the future.




Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 13, 2019, 10:36:01 PM
When you see hell punishment verses it appears God/s created a hot fluid that will boil in stomach and destroy the intestines. Becoz their worst nightmare was HOTNESS.

For a manmade God he must be stonehearted and emotionless being with a mind to see his own creation burning for long long periods.

Or people before 14 hund centuries were fearless naughty kids who need to get advised by those horrors of afterlife what is censored in todays age for kids under 13.even a person in his 40s easily get scared by some of the horrible ever punishment that can be imagined with skin changing upon every burning.

We have also gods of quranic interpretors too who take it as literally or metaphorically look in future how they manage to make u understand about what book said 14 hund yrs ago  :rotfl:

They are the one who choose when something is metahor or when something is example but they themsleves dnt know what they know is guessworks the only reality they know is they dnt know nothing at all. They just think its their duty to defend by switching things from literal to metaphor vs example so that u understand like kids understand becoz the punishment is literal vs metaphor hence its not really possible u get that punishment but u ll get worser than that  :brickwall:  purpose is to make people scared like hell.

Some shots in movie are not for weak hearts be careful while approaching those verses from the books claimed to b send by manmade god.

The work of real God will directly send down to your hearts like a computer download its contents from internat.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 13, 2019, 10:51:49 PM

We have also gods of quranic interpretors too who take it as literally or metaphorically look in future how they manage to make u understand about what book said 14 hund yrs ago  :rotfl:

They are the one who choose when something is metahor or when something is example but they themsleves dnt know what they know is guessworks the only reality they know is they dnt know nothing at all.

Voila, claiming the role as sole and ultimate broker to God.
That is a common scheme for thousand of years..

As promotion material they will invented the claim:
They and people who followed them are the only enlightened / chosen / saved people by God. Others who are outside of their group are ignorant / unchosen / doomed to eternal torture by God.

Since we have a good "bad example" now let's take the opposite path...
1. Don't play the role as sole and ultimate broker to God, God can be accessed by everyone through any means. There is no single mean (let alone single holy book) to reach God either.
2. Invite people to God, and not to your sect / cult / religion / idol / holy book. yes invite them to directly access God, God is accessible by everyone anywhere on any language directly without any broker, translator or mediator. Urged them to never hesitate to ASK and SEEK because when they do they will receive.




Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 13, 2019, 11:10:01 PM

That is a common scheme for thousand of years..


That scheme is in its last stages and advance minds already prepared a grave for that scheme.

Most of the people who even claimed to follow that old scheme are best of hypocrates or we can say law of real God is present with us upon seeing hypocrasy of them we can observe like this

Look how the surveys shows 98% so called believers of holy books never get a chance to read that holy scripture in their life time.
 
1 they dnt bother
2 they know its a scheme
3 its a sign of God to show the reality is not limited to XYZ book/cult.
4 98% are blind believers.
5 they imagined some super hero will save them as intercessor.

Its like creating a virus first then making a dose to cure that virus.  :rotfl: obv virus is not from God but they prove you god is the creator of that virus.

Reasons are lot but scheme was long rooted by our ancestors it will take its time to finally put all the scriptures in a mueseum of old religions where people tell their kids thats how old people make their kids fools by factor of fear now we are lucky we are using our conscience what is already a gift and real sign of creator.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 14, 2019, 01:14:53 AM
Nobody here is trying to convince anybody of things they do not want to be convinced. Anybody has her or his feeling about anything, so what is the problem?

Some people seem to be fed up with Qur'an and with people who feel and avow the Qur'an is authentic. It would seem that people who feel the Qur'an is authentic bother them in their opinion that the Qur'an is not authentic. Why? Why do they seem so annoyed by others who have their own opinions and feelings and which are opposite to theirs? Why do you invent biographies and motives which are the ones that would make you feel better about your choice of opinion against Qur'an?

You harp on on the same, harp and harp. That is fine. We realise that you are exasperated because others do not hate Qur'an as you do, but you do not need to parade seudoscience, or parade would be contradictions in Qur'an to make us change our well tried trust in Qur'an.

We Qur'an trusters do not need to convince you of anything. It is not you or any would be clever, or "scientist" who convinced or unconvinced us of anything, but our own trust in our own God given capacities for vision, truth and reason, which give us our trust in Qur'an, not any hearsay.

And, please, avoid the silly trick of setting God in opposition to Qur'an. It is too silly and cheap, we know about God, in fact it is the overwhelming perception that it is the God, the authentic real God sho speaks in Qur'an that makes us, yes, think that the Qur'an is indeed His word.

You are very much your own masters to diesagree, but the attempts to characterise Qur'an trusters as idiot,dumb, unknowledgeable, prejudiced, biggots and other niceties are childish, laughable, ill-bred. They are not offensive, because, as said, they are too primitive, emotional, plump and childish and, at times, so full of self agrandisement and self-delight that it is comical. I guess  you know it, but somewhow it seems as if you do need to be humoured so that you feel validated. 

You want to be Qur'an deniers, fine and good. Nobody will attempt to turn you away from that, but why should you need to teach us YOUR lessons and make us accept them in order to feel at peace. Go aheada distrust whatever you want to distrust. We are no obstacle. We are not the Inqusition. I guess it is you who feel nostalgic of some inquisition that would shut up us.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 14, 2019, 05:36:48 AM
Sister huruf, one sentence from Qoran tells it as it is:

Wa Hum Yanhawna Anhu Wa Yanawna Anhu Wa In Yuhlikuna illa Anfusahum Wa Ma Yashurun….

Deep down our instinct tells us what is said in Qoran cannot be said by a human -Arabic text only-. But interpretations ,all of them are by humans.

Qoran-Arabic text- brings out the ignorance of generations ,one after another ,if it is not sought after from the heart.

Do not worry sister, GOD knows this sort of thing happens to Qoran from its supporters of the past and critics. It says so in it.

And on we move towards more secrets in this divine book... Qoran will not go away,  no matter what and who plots for its demise .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 14, 2019, 09:40:34 AM
Nobody here is trying to convince anybody of things they do not want to be convinced. Anybody has her or his feeling about anything, so what is the problem?

Some people seem to be fed up with Qur'an and with people who feel and avow the Qur'an is authentic. It would seem that people who feel the Qur'an is authentic bother them in their opinion that the Qur'an is not authentic. Why? Why do they seem so annoyed by others who have their own opinions and feelings and which are opposite to theirs? Why do you invent biographies and motives which are the ones that would make you feel better about your choice of opinion against Qur'an?

but you do not need to parade seudoscience, or parade would be contradictions in Qur'an to make us change our well tried trust in Qur'an.

We Qur'an trusters do not need to convince you of anything. It is not you or any would be clever, or "scientist" who convinced or unconvinced us of anything, but our own trust in our own God given capacities for vision, truth and reason, which give us our trust in Qur'an, not any hearsay.

And, please, avoid the silly trick of setting God in opposition to Qur'an. It is too silly and cheap, we know about God, in fact it is the overwhelming perception that it is the God, the authentic real God sho speaks in Qur'an that makes us, yes, think that the Qur'an is indeed His word.

You are very much your own masters to diesagree, but the attempts to characterise Qur'an trusters as idiot,dumb, unknowledgeable, prejudiced, biggots and other niceties are childish, laughable, ill-bred. They are not offensive, because, as said, they are too primitive, emotional, plump and childish and, at times, so full of self agrandisement and self-delight that it is comical. I guess  you know it, but somewhow it seems as if you do need to be humoured so that you feel validated. 

You want to be Qur'an deniers, fine and good. Nobody will attempt to turn you away from that, but why should you need to teach us YOUR lessons and make us accept them in order to feel at peace. Go aheada distrust whatever you want to distrust. We are no obstacle. We are not the Inqusition. I guess it is you who feel nostalgic of some inquisition that would shut up us.

Salaam

Peace.

Wow, huruf. Just questions. I didn't demand answers. Just look into the verses pertaining to the subjects I've cited, and judge for yourself. If you don't see the concerns there, that'a fine. But others see then as concern and you have to bear that in mind the next time you assert "Qur'an is the literal, preserved and perfect word of God".

Quote
You harp on on the same, harp and harp. That is fine. We realise that you are exasperated because others do not hate Qur'an as you do

I don't hate the Qur'an. I'm just trying not to let my life long faith in it cloud my understanding of it. The best way to understand the Qur'an is to detach from it. Once you become Muslim, once you already believe the Qur'an is divine -  you cannot judge it objectively any more. Just like a non-Muslim may be biased against the Qur'an, Muslims can't help but be biased in favor of the Qur'an.

Thanks.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 14, 2019, 10:14:53 AM
Peace.

Wow, huruf. Just questions. I didn't demand answers. Just look into the verses pertaining to the subjects I've cited, and judge for yourself. If you don't see the concerns there, that'a fine. But others see then as concern and you have to bear that in mind the next time you assert "Qur'an is the literal, preserved and perfect word of God".

I don't hate the Qur'an. I'm just trying not to let my life long faith in it cloud my understanding of it. The best way to understand the Qur'an is to detach from it. Once you become Muslim, once you already believe the Qur'an is divine -  you cannot judge it objectively any more. Just like a non-Muslim may be biased against the Qur'an, Muslims can't help but be biased in favor of the Qur'an.

Thanks.

Neptin, you trick. You write something in quotes and attribute it to me. I did not rite that, you may have liked that i would have written that but indeed I did not. Still you put it in quotes as if a had written it. You trick. Why? No, I am not going to answer that, i do not get anything out answering such thing.  But you do seem to get a lot out of giving to yourself the answers that I do not give. I do not wonder that you do not get anything out of the Qur'an, if you do with it the same as you do with what I write that is certainly no wonder, the wonder would be that you would get anything.


Quoting you (and I do quote, not invent):

Quote
The best way to understand the Qur'an is to detach from it. Once you become Muslim, once you already believe the Qur'an is divine -  you cannot judge it objectively any more. Just like a non-Muslim may be biased against the Qur'an, Muslims can't help but be biased in favor of the Qur'an.

Again you are pontificating, The Pope is nothing compared to all the pontification done in this forum.

And as to your recipe and guess, because you really do not have any idea how I read or understand the Qur'an, you just seem to feel that, since your are so clever you know how I do anything you care to think of.

I mean to that recipe of yours for understanding the Qur'an, let me quote you the Qur'an as to who understands the Qur'an:

لَّا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا الْمُطَهَّرُونَ

none but the purified shall touch, (79)

If anybody wants to get anything out of it without getting rid first of all the noise and shit they may have accummulated along the way, then they can certify a miracle.

I myself do not believe in miracles, so I do not expect one in this forum.

Qur'an non haters but who think that "I'm just trying not to let my life long faith in it cloud my understanding of it." (an I do quote, not like others) can rest unworried, the burden of their life long faith in it seems to cloud forever their understanding of it. But we humans are very resourceful and if we cannot manage to understand something, we can always happily carry on misunderstanding it. It seems it gives real kicks.

At any rate worry about your own clouds, and let others worry about theirs, about which you seem to know absolutely everything.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 14, 2019, 10:38:45 AM
Sister huruf, one sentence from Qoran tells it as it is:

Wa Hum Yanhawna Anhu Wa Yanawna Anhu Wa In Yuhlikuna illa Anfusahum Wa Ma Yashurun….

Deep down our instinct tells us what is said in Qoran cannot be said by a human -Arabic text only-. But interpretations ,all of them are by humans.

Qoran-Arabic text- brings out the ignorance of generations ,one after another ,if it is not sought after from the heart.

Do not worry sister, GOD knows this sort of thing happens to Qoran from its supporters of the past and critics. It says so in it.

And on we move towards more secrets in this divine book... Qoran will not go away,  no matter what and who plots for its demise .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Yes, good logic, so it is, I just try, a little, when I can, to point out where it really hurts, because, who knows, may be catching them in the act may open some eyes. May be not those of the person being actually addressed, but some others who may gain perception.

On the other hand, many times I do feel sorry for people depending on translations, because some even with good will may feel really conflicted and powerless in many occasions.


Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 14, 2019, 10:51:00 AM
And, please, avoid the silly trick of setting God in opposition to Qur'an. It is too silly and cheap, we know about God, in fact it is the overwhelming perception that it is the God, the authentic real God sho speaks in Qur'an that makes us, yes, think that the Qur'an is indeed His word.

1. God is not in opposition to anything and anyone, whatever it is (Quran, Bible, Torah, Sumerian Tablet, Mein Kampf etc..)
Given God is all powerful and everything happened in accordance to His plan and within his control.

2. The above also implies the illogicality of notion that God declare war against a group of human, punish those who do not obey His command (given nothing can disobey Him) let alone punished a human who ate a fruit.  :rotfl:

3. The more you know the more you will be aware of how ignorant you are.
Because every answer to your question will only resulted in more additional questions. Those who truly ponder and seek about God signs in this universe can assert this, the more answer resulted in more questions and makes them realize on so many things that he / she just not aware or understand.
Thus if there is somebody who claimed that they know God it just really shows the true level of their knowledge, perhaps they never ask question or ponder at all.

“The more you know, the more you know you don't know.”
― Aristotle

“The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.”
― Albert Einstein

"The more knowledge we gained about the universe, the more I realize I don’t know anything."
-- Natalie Batalha, NASA Researcher

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge...”
— Charles Darwin

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 14, 2019, 12:22:42 PM
We know about God  :rotfl:

REALLY do we know ?

We know s*** about anything at all .

We dnt even know whats inside our body whats in mars planet and mars choclate too  : :rotfl: we believe whats in choclate by reading the list of ingredients by manufacturer of that chocolate.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 14, 2019, 02:58:48 PM
Peace huruf ,all,
Cheer up and  weed(not just listen to) Qoran. Because burning it will get you stoned!

I have the Quran on CD...
People sure are getting upset when I said I burned it.

What do we do with those that have the virus  "Qoran doubters"?
Put them in the Qoran tine room to study !

GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 14, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
Or shall I say people are getting upset when I say "study Qoran"?
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 14, 2019, 09:53:15 PM
Neptin, you trick. You write something in quotes and attribute it to me. I did not rite that, you may have liked that i would have written that but indeed I did not. Still you put it in quotes as if a had written it. You trick. Why? No, I am not going to answer that, i do not get anything out answering such thing.  But you do seem to get a lot out of giving to yourself the answers that I do not give. I do not wonder that you do not get anything out of the Qur'an, if you do with it the same as you do with what I write that is certainly no wonder, the wonder would be that you would get anything.

It 'd be better you cited what I attributed to you. Because I have read my reply & don't see what you're talking.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 14, 2019, 10:46:01 PM
I'm genuine in my critique of Qur'an

Here are my activities since 2013 when I embraced Qur'an and rejected hadith

1. I have written and published several articles on enjoining Qur'an and God alone, on this forum, or reddit even before r/quraniyoon, and other forums with religion or Islam section.

2. I used to blog on Wordpress, where I offered alternative rational and humanist interpretation of verses on Islamic law. I stopped posting because I became too busy to post regularly. My blog is flamesoftruth.wordpress.com but it is currently unlisted.

3. I am the creator of r/Muslimsantisharia on reddit. There, the objective was a rational interpretation of sharia. To understand the Qur'an in light of human rights and freedom.


All of this goes to show how much I've invested in the Qur'an. So I'm not just some Muslim who is tired of the Qur'an and seek to smear it.

Are my critiques based on flawed translations?

Also, I do my research. I don't depend on translation. But I also think it is weak to blame every critique of Qur'an on mistranslation, because most translators understand Arabic than many Muslims on this internet.

Why I'm skeptical of free-minders' intepretations of Qur'an

Because they are biased. They seem plausible if you assume the Qur'an was revealed yesterday for the 21st century, but if you look at the Qur'an as a book for all times, free-minder's interpretation makes no sense.

In order to see this, we just need to pick up any of the classical books of tafsir; ibn Kathir or Ibn Abbas. Keep in mind that these Qur'an exegetes understood Arabic far better than us, for they were Arabs. But their interpretation of Qur'an is far different from what free-minders assert.

As I said before, free-minders offer alternative interpretations, which while plausible, remain disputable and not definite. Free-minders interpretation helps us question the traditional interpretation, and that's as far as it gets. Which interpretation a Muslim accept now depend on external factors like their environment and culture.

What does this mean for the Qur'an?

I have already explained previously that the probability for multiple contradictory interpretations of the same verse mean the Qur'an is not clear.

All through the ages, the Qur'an have been invoked for offensive war, wife beating, slavery, amputating thieves, gender inequality etc; but now in the 21st century, we have Muslims deny any of these are sanctioned by Qur'an. OK, agreed. But how did the previous Muslims come to accepts them as Qur'anic?

Simple, because these atrocities were just norm at the time. If we lived in the days of Ibn Tamiyya, virtually none would've considered alternative interpretation. This lead to the former point on biases influencing and distorting our understanding of the Qur'an.

This is why it is very hard to be objective in reading the Qur'an. I don't believe I'm fully objective and none of the defendants of the Qur'an are objective as well.

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 12:08:37 AM
Peace.

Wow, huruf. Just questions. I didn't demand answers. Just look into the verses pertaining to the subjects I've cited, and judge for yourself. If you don't see the concerns there, that'a fine. But others see then as concern and you have to bear that in mind the next time you assert "Qur'an is the literal, preserved and perfect word of God".




Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 15, 2019, 12:22:20 AM


Salaam

You mean what I put between the quotation marks? I was paraphrasing. You didn't say that directly. But that's the impression I get on your view of the Qur'an after reading much of your post here.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 01:47:06 AM
Ys, I know that is the impression you get, at least what you think you get, may be you do not allow yourself to get anything else. If that is with me, who am a speck in the universe, I understand what you allow yourself to get off the Qur'an.

We get what we are able to get or what we allow ourselves to get. Nothing more nothing less.

Salaam 
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 15, 2019, 05:56:56 AM
Peace All.
 I fail to understand why people waste their time with Qoran when it becomes clear to them, in their search, that it is contradictory and  vague.

This is the obvious positive and logic way to take. Or do they want to warn and help others in case Qoran draws more supporters to its contents? Or have they still got some doubts about some of the "good" things they see there and they want to cling to that?

Sorry but I really only see two choices with Qoran:
1- search it with sincerity.
2- ditch it and find other "good things you want to do" instead.

I also think it is pointless discussing for or against Qoran. Since the book is available for all to browse, each make of it directly what they see for themselves.
Of course it is fine to say what they think of it, but that is all one can do. Give their view of it to check. Others can do the same. Giving others view of it is pointless and needs checking as well anyway.

Qoran is there for everyone to search for themselves by themselves.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Layth on July 15, 2019, 06:32:06 AM
Dear Neptin,

Quote
Why I'm skeptical of free-minders' intepretations of Qur'an

Because they are biased. They seem plausible if you assume the Qur'an was revealed yesterday for the 21st century, but if you look at the Qur'an as a book for all times, free-minder's interpretation makes no sense.

In order to see this, we just need to pick up any of the classical books of tafsir; ibn Kathir or Ibn Abbas. Keep in mind that these Qur'an exegetes understood Arabic far better than us, for they were Arabs. But their interpretation of Qur'an is far different from what free-minders assert.

As I said before, free-minders offer alternative interpretations, which while plausible, remain disputable and not definite. Free-minders interpretation helps us question the traditional interpretation, and that's as far as it gets. Which interpretation a Muslim accept now depend on external factors like their environment and culture.

Your assertions are flawed. The Qur'an is not a book like any other on Earth that a person with an understanding of the language can pick-up and fathom. Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas were idolaters which believed the Quran needed the books of Hadith and other nonsense to be understood - thus, by God's own law, they would be unable to fathom the Quran regardless of their depth of language.

- The Quran asserts that locks are placed on such peoples hearts from understanding, and in their ears is a deafness (17:46).

- It is a Book that can only be grasped by the pure (56:79).

Yes, we treat the Quran as if it was revealed yesterday - and that is because we will only read it with pure eyes seeking the Glory of God and the understanding of His words.

 
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 15, 2019, 07:11:24 AM
Peace All.
I fail to understand why people waste their time with Qoran when it becomes clear to them, in their search, that it is contradictory and  vague.

Having a go at me again? :)

Need I remind you that the original premise of this thread is not the Qur'an contradiction and vagueness but the approach Muslims have towards the Qur'an? The literalist, idealist & unilateral approach that I find flawed and feed into Muslim fanaticism.

With due respect to you, goodlogic. Please contribute something to the discussion and forget ad hominem.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: imrankhawaja on July 15, 2019, 10:35:04 AM
Having a go at me again? :)

Its about how someone can understand about someone.

Example is within itself a SIGN for you in this discussion becoz  goodlogic himself have a version of quran missing two verses or rejecting two verses vs the rest of the debaters of quran  :rotfl:  but he is 100% sure his quran version is based on truth vs freeminds quran verison.  And you cant/never convince him same like noone else convince you about anything.

Same goes with everyone XYZ vs ABC from past to present.
TEAM a vs TEAM b cant play together on one side otherwise its not a game this life is like a game and everyone have their teams and fav players in every field of life.

Change always come from inside when we able to understand what we want to understand.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 15, 2019, 10:55:48 AM
Well, Neptin, it seems to me that from the beginning you have set your views which, as far as I can get from all your posts, amount to saying that anybody who does not agree with you is, knowingly or not, in league with terrorists and fanatics.

May be you should tell that to the very fanatics themselves, to tell us here is pointless.

In fact people who adopt the attitude you seem to have here are the validators of the western state terorism over the world. These validators give the imperial states the justification for destroying directly country after country and destroying more slowly their own countries by imposing progressively laws and economical rules and conditions that are oppressive and which in some things may start against muslisms but which finally trick down to everybody.

That is the way totalitarians work against the people, the famous divide and conquer which seems never to fail.

Your crusade in this forum seems pointless. Either you use Qur'an to improve yourself and give you peace either you drop it if you want that peace or improve something. With an attitude as you show here, good logic is right, better ditch the Qur'an, anybody is able to get worse without resorting to the Qur'an.

Such a neurotic need for the Qur'an seems to come from the inability to oppose the real fanatics and terrorists, like the states, for instance, and their "supermuslims" counterpart. Since thy have that inability to do anything against the real culprits, they vindicate themselves retaliating on an inanimate thing, their fetiche devilish fraud book which is the source of all their unhappiness.

I do not think the book, or any book for that matter, is the source of the unhapiness of anybody but it can take that role and thus allow those who do that to assuage their real inability and keep ignoring their symptoms and their real needs and problems.

We all do that at some time or other, but must move on.

Salaam
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 15, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
Peace Neptin.
My comment is general . I do not know your thinking nor do I need to know. I do not have a go at anyone since they are free to make their own choices and decisions.  My comment may apply to you or not. depending on where you see it yourself.

As for other Muslims ,I will be making a lot of assumptions speaking about them. Of course some ,according to what they say, pretend to follow Qoran as far as my understanding of Qoran tells me. That is also their choice and decision. I do not belong to any community or sect as far as my redemption goes nor do I rely on anyone or depend on their ways..
So I do not have to give up on anybody.

Peace Imran.
Convincing others is not our role. GOD is the only Wakeel and does the convincing or otherwise.
If others are here to convince, I know I am not here to convince you or anybody else.
Thanks  to all those who are trying to convince me on my redemption task. but I pass. I will try and do it myself. All of us should do the same.

GOD bless you both.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: ade_cool on July 15, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
The truth is, the Qur'an was sent to lay and illiterate Arabs. When the Qur'an was recited to them, it was clear enough they understood what it meant. They didn't study the Qur'an, they listened to it. Repeatedly, the Qur'an insist on its clarity. It shouldn't be rocket science.
Can you explain why you think Quran was sent to lay and illiterate Arabs?

Quote
Lastly, I'd like to touch on huruf and co.'s assertion that the "Qur'an is perfect but it is our interpretation that is imperfect."

Look, how do we know Qur'an is perfect if our interpretation of Qur'an is not perfect? You can't conclude some thing is perfect unless you reach the perfect interpretation of it.
This kind of reasoning is very weak to me. It does not make sense at all. Let me try to give illustration.

A teacher is talking to his students.
Teacher: If you study this book "Advanced Calculus" and understand the content, you should be able to pass the exam at the end of semester.

Using your reasoning, the students should reject their teacher simply because they haven't reached advanced calculus level (how do we know this advanced calculus book if we study and understand it we will be able to pass the exam).

Do you get what I am saying?

Quote
Another truth, the only reason why we tend to downplay concerns about flaws of the Qur'an is because we believe it is the book of God, and as such we're biased in its favor. If the Qur'an is believed to be the book of man like the US constitution or Sumerian literature, none would dismiss concerns of its flaws so confidently.

[2:23] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

Since you doubt it is revealed by God, why don't you take the challenge if you are truthful?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: ade_cool on July 15, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
All through the ages, the Qur'an have been invoked for offensive war, wife beating, slavery, amputating thieves, gender inequality etc; but now in the 21st century, we have Muslims deny any of these are sanctioned by Qur'an. OK, agreed. But how did the previous Muslims come to accepts them as Qur'anic?
Because they take shahih hadith books as the implementation of Quran as practiced by Rasulullah which is part of God's revelation. Does that answer your question?

By the way why look in the distant past "previous Muslims"? Even today, present day sunnis are taking shahih hadith books as their religion and abandon Quran.

Quote
This is why it is very hard to be objective in reading the Qur'an. I don't believe I'm fully objective and none of the defendants of the Qur'an are objective as well.
Every individual is unique. You ask 2 people what their understanding of Quran, you will get 2 different understanding. And both can be guided by God at the same time. You ask N people what their understanding of Quran, you will get N different understanding. And all these N people can be guided by God at the same time.

Having different understanding of Quran is simply inevitable. Do you agree?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 15, 2019, 11:05:22 PM
Dear Neptin,

Your assertions are flawed. The Qur'an is not a book like any other on Earth that a person with an understanding of the language can pick-up and fathom. Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas were idolaters which believed the Quran needed the books of Hadith and other nonsense to be understood - thus, by God's own law, they would be unable to fathom the Quran regardless of their depth of language.

- The Quran asserts that locks are placed on such peoples hearts from understanding, and in their ears is a deafness (17:46).

- It is a Book that can only be grasped by the pure (56:79).

Yes, we treat the Quran as if it was revealed yesterday - and that is because we will only read it with pure eyes seeking the Glory of God and the understanding of His words.

Peace.

An alternative view of the likes of Ibn Kathir or Ibn Abbas is that these men may just have been common Muslims who thought they were monotheists and honestly thought hadith were the best means to understand Qur'an. There are many sunnites and shiites like these today, even within our families.

We cannot unilaterally conclude these men were deliberately idolatrous. Simple probability proves anyone born to Muslim parent in the Muslim world at present or past is most will most likely be sunnite, and will engage in all practices that may be idolatrous. As such, God's law to restrain such individuals from fathoming the Qur'an is almost not fair.

In the real world, Islam is "Qur'an & Sunnah". God alone Islam exist only in this forum, I'm afraid. Less than 1% of Muslims subscribe to God alone in the sense that Free-Minds forum enjoins?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 15, 2019, 11:49:50 PM
Well, Neptin, it seems to me that from the beginning you have set your views which, as far as I can get from all your posts, amount to saying that anybody who does not agree with you is, knowingly or not, in league with terrorists and fanatics.

May be you should tell that to the very fanatics themselves, to tell us here is pointless.

In fact people who adopt the attitude you seem to have here are the validators of the western state terorism over the world. These validators give the imperial states the justification for destroying directly country after country and destroying more slowly their own countries by imposing progressively laws and economical rules and conditions that are oppressive and which in some things may start against muslisms but which finally trick down to everybody.

That is the way totalitarians work against the people, the famous divide and conquer which seems never to fail.

Your crusade in this forum seems pointless. Either you use Qur'an to improve yourself and give you peace either you drop it if you want that peace or improve something. With an attitude as you show here, good logic is right, better ditch the Qur'an, anybody is able to get worse without resorting to the Qur'an.

Such a neurotic need for the Qur'an seems to come from the inability to oppose the real fanatics and terrorists, like the states, for instance, and their "supermuslims" counterpart. Since thy have that inability to do anything against the real culprits, they vindicate themselves retaliating on an inanimate thing, their fetiche devilish fraud book which is the source of all their unhappiness.

I do not think the book, or any book for that matter, is the source of the unhapiness of anybody but it can take that role and thus allow those who do that to assuage their real inability and keep ignoring their symptoms and their real needs and problems.

We all do that at some time or other, but must move on.

Salaam

Peace.

On the Fanatics

I do oppose the fanatics around me. I've been active on Sunnite internet boards where the fanatics lurk as moderate Muslims. I've gone toe to toe with sunnites that propose amputation, banning gay marriages and persecuting critics of Islam. This is as much as I can do.

On Western Imperialism of Muslim world

Your claim here is lame. No people validate the western invasion of Muslim lands on ground that the Muslims all contribute to fanaticism by deeming the Qur'an perfect.

It also seem you don't understand how foreign policy works. The western invaders are not concerned about "Muslim" or "Islam" or "Qur'an", "Oil", "Dollar" and "Power" is what drives them. That is why they have happily courted Saudi Arabia and tolerate importation of "Muslims" within their territory.

On the flip side, those who say the Qur'an is divine and perfect are encouraging fanaticism. Because, when a Muslim learns the Qur'an is divine and perfect, he seek to live uncompromisingly according to his interpretation of the Qur'an. And the consequence of this could be dire, depending upon his interpretation of the verse.

Please look up the meaning of "Fanaticism", it is not limited to violence.

On my crusade on this forum

Look, this is a public forum about Islam. Negative observation on Islam should be welcomed as well. If for any reason you feel bothered by my crusade here, feel free to leave my thread. You can defend the Qur'an all you want, hell, I've defended the Qur'an before and I will defend it where I feel it is right. But ad hominen will not be tolerated by me.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 15, 2019, 11:53:51 PM
Can you explain why you think Quran was sent to lay and illiterate Arabs?

From my digging so far, illiteracy was more widespread among the Arabs than literacy. 1400 years ago, illiteracy was more common among human than now.

Quote
This kind of reasoning is very weak to me. It does not make sense at all. Let me try to give illustration.

A teacher is talking to his students.
Teacher: If you study this book "Advanced Calculus" and understand the content, you should be able to pass the exam at the end of semester.

Using your reasoning, the students should reject their teacher simply because they haven't reached advanced calculus level (how do we know this advanced calculus book if we study and understand it we will be able to pass the exam).

Do you get what I am saying?

OK, what you're saying is that we haven't reached the Qur'an level of understanding yet. And that if we fully understand the Qur'an, we'll see why it is perfect.

Ahh, I'm lost for word.

Quote
[2:23] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

Since you doubt it is revealed by God, why don't you take the challenge if you are truthful?

Well, I'm not an Arabic speaker and even if I were, I couldn't produce a similar chapter because Qur'an Arabic dialect is not the same as mainstream Arabic dialect. That's like asking me to produce a chapter like Shakespeare.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Neptin on July 16, 2019, 12:42:39 AM
Because they take shahih hadith books as the implementation of Quran as practiced by Rasulullah which is part of God's revelation. Does that answer your question?

By the way why look in the distant past "previous Muslims"? Even today, present day sunnis are taking shahih hadith books as their religion and abandon Quran.
Every individual is unique. You ask 2 people what their understanding of Quran, you will get 2 different understanding. And both can be guided by God at the same time. You ask N people what their understanding of Quran, you will get N different understanding. And all these N people can be guided by God at the same time.

Having different understanding of Quran is simply inevitable. Do you agree?

Slight differences in understanding is negligible, but we have significant differences.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: huruf on July 16, 2019, 04:00:20 AM
Peace.

On the Fanatics

I do oppose the fanatics around me. I've been active on Sunnite internet boards where the fanatics lurk as moderate Muslims. I've gone toe to toe with sunnites that propose amputation, banning gay marriages and persecuting critics of Islam. This is as much as I can do.

On Western Imperialism of Muslim world

Your claim here is lame. No people validate the western invasion of Muslim lands on ground that the Muslims all contribute to fanaticism by deeming the Qur'an perfect.

It also seem you don't understand how foreign policy works. The western invaders are not concerned about "Muslim" or "Islam" or "Qur'an", "Oil", "Dollar" and "Power" is what drives them. That is why they have happily courted Saudi Arabia and tolerate importation of "Muslims" within their territory.

On the flip side, those who say the Qur'an is divine and perfect are encouraging fanaticism. Because, when a Muslim learns the Qur'an is divine and perfect, he seek to live uncompromisingly according to his interpretation of the Qur'an. And the consequence of this could be dire, depending upon his interpretation of the verse.

Please look up the meaning of "Fanaticism", it is not limited to violence.

On my crusade on this forum

Look, this is a public forum about Islam. Negative observation on Islam should be welcomed as well. If for any reason you feel bothered by my crusade here, feel free to leave my thread. You can defend the Qur'an all you want, hell, I've defended the Qur'an before and I will defend it where I feel it is right. But ad hominen will not be tolerated by me.

Threads are not properties, an ad hominem you have launched quite a few, so give and take.

Nobody is trying to shut you up, only just get real reasons for arguments you put forward and which to others do not seem to be grounded on reason. So they must be grounded on something else.

You do suspect all the time that other people also have grounds for what they say and think that are  not grounded on reaspn, so why do you get upset? In fact you are telling again and again things like:

"On the flip side, those who say the Qur'an is divine and perfect are encouraging fanaticism. Because, when a Muslim learns the Qur'an is divine and perfect, he seek to live uncompromisingly according to his interpretation of the Qur'an. And the consequence of this could be dire, depending upon his interpretation of the verse."

So you state that and you do not tolerate that somebody states something else. You reasoning, to call it something, in that paragraph is not serious, it is your feeling, as far as I can judge and is presuming again, that those who do not agree with you on your opinion of Qur'an there is something wrong with them and somehow they are culprits, and that they also respond to your description of them, something which you cannot know and you do not know and which is the reason why I keep saying that there are a few gods in this orum who know all just like that.


As to the imperials, of course, of course, of course I know it is nothing to do with islam or religion or anything decent. Power drives them, the thirst for power, the hardest drug known to man. But they are manipulators and therefore they manipulate every decent feeling people may have to drive them making they believe that they are with anoble cause and that it is sacred hings that are at stake. What you write in this forum to me is a proof that they succeed to a certain extent. In some environments they succed beyond expectations.


Salaam

 
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 16, 2019, 05:57:27 AM
In the real world, Islam is "Qur'an & Sunnah". God alone Islam exist only in this forum, I'm afraid. Less than 1% of Muslims subscribe to God alone in the sense that Free-Minds forum enjoins?

God alone exist not only in this forum, it exist everywhere.
God alone exist even before the Quran (or Torah or Bible or Jesus or Krishna) exist.

God alone might not be a 'majority' throughout the history of human existence, but it always exist throughout the history of human existence and will continue to exist until the time has come for human extinction.

Fanatics always claimed that they're "God Alone" in order to somehow lift their status upon other groups, yet somehow they just cannot resist the urge to tie it up to their idols. In order to be "God Alone" you must also believe in Jesus Christ, Catholic Church, Quran, Bible, Torah, Imam something, Sheikh something etc.. etc..



Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 16, 2019, 06:47:12 AM
Peace Neptin.
You are talking about Muslims and putting everyone in your basket of "Muslims. Then you say you want to understand Qoran.
Qoran defines what is Islam:
Fact: from Qoran:
ISLAM in the Arabic language is a noun with a meaning. It is not a title or a proper name of any kind of entity. That noun describes a state of mind of ANYONE or ANY BEING that senses total submission and devotion towards a specific entity. In a spiritual perspective, such devotion and submission is felt towards God, the Creator of all beings and things, all the seen and unseen.

Another fact from Qoran:
Reading through Quran, one easily recognizes that the defined state of mind of Islam basically spells out God’s ONE and ONLY message He has delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since Noah; Follow / Ubudu(Straight path) God alone and avoid idolatry. We, thus, safely conclude, within the spiritual perspective, that the message of Islam or Submission has been in existence way before the time of prophet Muhammad and way before Quran. It has been confirmed by all previous prophets and messengers, contained within all previous scriptures and is meant to be in existence for as long as there is life on earth; UNIVERSAL MESSAGE.

[Qoran 81:27] This is a message for all the people.
[Qoran 81:28] For those who wish to go straight.

So I do not see illiterate Arabs in Qoran nor do I share your understanding of "Muslim community" as the only "Muslims" per your definition.

This is the basic of  where lot of misunderstandings have taken root. There is no religion called "Traditional Islam" in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: ade_cool on July 16, 2019, 08:46:40 AM
From my digging so far, illiteracy was more widespread among the Arabs than literacy. 1400 years ago, illiteracy was more common among human than now.

Can you please provide the reference from your digging?

Quote
OK, what you're saying is that we haven't reached the Qur'an level of understanding yet. And that if we fully understand the Qur'an, we'll see why it is perfect.

Ahh, I'm lost for word.
No ...that is not what I am saying :) ...I am saying your reasoning is very weak and I have given the illustration why I am saying so (which unfortunately you don't get)

Quote
Well, I'm not an Arabic speaker and even if I were, I couldn't produce a similar chapter because Qur'an Arabic dialect is not the same as mainstream Arabic dialect. That's like asking me to produce a chapter like Shakespeare.
The challenge is not limited to Arabic speaker. Turned out you are not truthful person when you say it is not from God.

[2:24] And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: ade_cool on July 16, 2019, 08:54:58 AM
Slight differences in understanding is negligible, but we have significant differences.
It does not matter whether the difference is only slightly different or significantly different. What I am saying is despite the differences, those N different people can all be guided by God at the same time. Do you agree or not?
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: Jafar on July 17, 2019, 12:10:49 AM
It does not matter whether the difference is only slightly different or significantly different. What I am saying is despite the differences, those N different people can all be guided by God at the same time. Do you agree or not?

This one I agree...
Everyone is guided on some aspects.
Those are the aspects which he / she ASK and SEEK.
At the same time everyone is unguided on some aspects
Those are the aspects which he / she didn't bother to ASK and SEEK.

Due to the unlimited number of aspects, so numerous than one small brain can handle, and also due to very limited human lifetime, nobody is guided on ALL aspects. Those who claimed as such are ignorant.

This is the key essence of Tolerance of Differences which is in opposition of Fanaticism.

Fanatics usually claimed that their group is the only guided group, thus superior compared to others, while others either are enemy of their God (thus justified to be treated wrongly / unjustly) or plainly unguided that need to be guided (read: converted).

Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: good logic on July 17, 2019, 05:46:20 AM
Peace Neptin.
Continued from my last post:
Please read these verses and reflect

Are the following "Muslims" illiterate Arabs or are they "Any one from all humans" who follow GOD s system?

[Qoran 2:133] Had you witnessed Jacob on his death bed; he said to his children, "What will you Ubudu after I die?" They said, "We will Ubud your god; the god of your fathers Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac; the one god. To Him we are MUSLIMEEN."

[Qoran 3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters; we believe in God, and bear witness that we are MUSLIMEEN"

[Qoran 2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in God, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[Qoran 21:92] Your congregation is but one congregation, and I alone am your Lord; you shall Ubudu Me alone.

[Qoran 21:93] However, they divided themselves into disputing religions. All of them will come back to us (for judgment).

[Qoran 21:94] As for those who work righteousness, while believing, their work will not go to waste; we are recording it.

[Qoran 42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. God redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally SUBMIT.

[Qoran 42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

[Qoran 42:15] This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by God. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. God will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny."

[Qoran 23:51] O you messengers, eat from the good provisions, and work righteousness. I am fully aware of everything you do.

[Qoran 23:52] Such is your congregation - one congregation - and I am your Lord; you shall reverence Me.

[Qoran 23:53] But they tore themselves into disputing factions; each party happy with what they have.

[Qoran 23:54] Therefore, just leave them in their confusion, for awhile.
 
[Qoran 2:136] Say, "We believe in God, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are MUSLIMEEN"

[Qoran 2:137] If they believe as you do, then they are guided. But if they turn away, then they are in opposition. God will spare you their opposition; He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[Qoran 3:19] The only religion approved by God is "ISLAM." (The noun i.e state of  the submitting mind!!!!)Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of God's revelations, God is most strict in reckoning.

[Qoran 3:85] Anyone who accepts other than ISLAM( The state of mind towards the creator!!!!) as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.

[Qoran 3:102] O you who believe, you shall observe God as He should be observed, and do not die except as MUSLIMEEN.

[Qoran 3:103] You shall hold fast to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be divided. Recall God's blessings upon you - you used to be enemies and He reconciled your hearts. By His grace, you became brethren. You were at the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you therefrom. God thus explains His revelations for you, that you may be guided.. (ALL OF YOU HUMANS!!!)

[Qoran 31:21] Those who submit (ASLAMA!!!)completely to God, while leading a righteous life, have gotten hold of the strongest bond. For God is in full control of all things.

[Qoran 2:112] Indeed, those who submit(ASLAMU!!!) themselves absolutely to God alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense at their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve

Like I said I do not see Qoran only to illiterate Arabs????
Like I do not see only "Traditional Muslims as the only "Muslims" that Qoran refers to. In fact they are far from being true Muslims if they abandon Qoran. Qoran is for all ALALAMEEN-humans-.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason
Post by: quincy on July 17, 2019, 06:46:51 AM
Peace!

@Neptin: A muslim is someone who submits to the almighty God and not to a man-made religion. If you argue with people who submitted to a religion and have absolutely no clue about the nature of GOD is like arguing with a fish about the water its swimming in. Indoctrination goes very deep in religious systems, i gave up arguing with them long ago, not even with muslims but also with christians or jews or even buddhists and modern day "yogis".

But still - i dont agree with you according the Qur'an. I surely also dont want to argue with doubters of the Qur'an... the Message is clear and makes sense like no other. I put the inner knowing through GOD and his instructions through his divine messengers above everything.