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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Iyyaka on May 19, 2019, 11:01:58 AM

Title: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 19, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
Hello everyone,

In this period of the traditional month of "Ramadan" let me address a topic that caused a problem for Koranic interpreters in the past and now.

Indeed, in 2:184 the word "ma'dūdat" with the Alif and the Ta at the end suggests what is called in Arabic "djama`u qila" ie a Low number between 3 and 10 days.

       Others evidence?

       1) Classical Arabic Dictionary (Kazimirski and Lane's lexicon)

       2) The verses of the Qur'an that use this specific form (Except 2:184) confirm this Arabic usage:

           - (2:203: 5) And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
           => 3 days (Hajj)

           - (3: 24: 9) That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few days," and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
           => 7 days as the number of days in one Week (see Tafsir from "ibn kathir" = in English too)

BUT the problem is that the Quran seems to tell us in 2:185 to "fast" 1 whole lunar month is about 29-30 days! We are far from the few days that we can count on the hand!

How to solve this problem ? Here are the interpretations I found (in my point of view they are not really acceptable) :

1) Abrogation by the Hadtihs:

Muslim: https://www.islamicfinder.org/hadith/muslim/fasting/2687/
 (https://www.islamicfinder.org/hadith/muslim/fasting/2687/)
Bukhari: https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-4507/
 (https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-4507/)

2) They made a distinction between the revelation period of verses 2:183-184 (the most recent) and that of 2:185 (the latest).
So at the beginning the "Muslims" were playing like the Jews for three days until they broke up with them as a separate community that imposed 30 days (Ramadan month) by the Koran. We are not far from abrogation.

3) The word "ma'dūdat" does not mean a very limited number of days (<= 10 days) but simply "counted", "numbered", "enumerated" .. in contradiction with the linguistic arguments that I mentioned above.

4) The word "shahru" in 2:185 does not mean 1 whole lunar month but refers to the first crescent moon after the new moon or full moon.
But the Koran says "shahru" = lunar month (because visible to the naked eye).
And the other Quranic verses use this meaning in a "whole month" way.
Furthermore, and as I pointed out in another recently post here, the word "To Fast" in English as in French is an intransitive verb (no object) that can not apply to 1 month or 1 crescent moon; which contradicts the expression "(2:185: 17) - falyaṣum'hu (hu = PRON - 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun)


So to your reflections to solve this apparent contradiction! (if we believe that the Koran contains no contradiction of course ..)

And sorry if an acceptable solution has already be found in this big forum.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 19, 2019, 12:44:59 PM
(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/108.%20Oiddat%20made%20Ain%20Dal%20Dal/3.gif)

Passive Participle: indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Wakas on May 20, 2019, 03:26:42 AM
Is it intransitive in Arabic though?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17)


You may also find this interesting:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: The Sardar on May 20, 2019, 10:24:07 AM
I think we need to check the root word of Shahru:

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2:185, 2:185, 2:194, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 9:36, 34:12, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4, 97:3

LL, V4, p: 336, 337  ##http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=shhr

Plus in 2:185:

2:185 شهر رمضان الذى انزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينات من الهدىا والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا او علىا سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علىا ما هدىاكم ولعلكم تشكرون
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanifaman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kanamareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyaminokhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedubikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo AllahaAAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

It says whoever WITNESSES/SHAHIDA the Shahra. My question is, how do you witness a Month? You can however, witness a Full Moon like this one:


(https://c.tadst.com/gfx/750x500/full-moon.png?1)


You can check out videos by a sister known as Simply Muslim who touched on Ramadan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXvBSB7o_-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvuVsqqP_lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPjv5w4eVBg
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: The Sardar on May 20, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
Plus i noticed that wa or thumma is not mentioned in 2:185. Now i can be wrong but this could indicate that 2:184 & 2:185 may not be related (Again, i could be incorrect).

*EDIT* I have found something that may change my mind on this reply i made:

From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOG1XeZ0xzI&lc=UgzCbhiaRTElgYeMYqx4AaABAg.8h5WVczSHNL8h7KkbOvG9Y


*This comment is 11 months old*

Quote
Peace be upon you dear brother John,


It is always wonderful reading from you dear brother.




<<<1.  If it takes an expert in classical Arabic years to figure this out, what hope for everyone else, especially when it claims that it is a clear book that everyone can understand?>>>


To be clear, I do not consider myself an 'expert' in the language. I understand it, I am fluent in it, but I am in no way some grammarian or been to language school or such :)


I understand how this can be frustrating particularly for those relying on translations. However, we need to keep in mind that the true Quranic message has been buried under centuries of traditions, customs, biases, and misinterpretations, and it is only now that some scholars of the Arabic world are starting to truly grasp the Quranic message at its pristine condition. And lots of traditionalists are fighting back to preserve these traditions! So it will take time for the Qurans true message to prevail, but I personally see it happening everyday in the Arab world.








<<<For instance, it could have indicated explicitly that the moon appears bigger or appears red/orange, or that it is not when the month starts but when the moon is full. And furthermore, the fast is ONLY for those very specific days DURING the month of Ramadan. Yet it doesn't. >>>>


My contention is based on the fact that God speaks of AYMAN MADOODAT (countable days) in 2:184 and then He speaks of 'the month' in 2:185. Both of these terms are connected by 'the counts' or AL-'IDDAH which are both mentioned in 2:184 and 185. So it seemed to me the 'countable number' of days is within the 'month' that we are supposed to abstain.




The Quran is very clear that month is reliant on the moon phases. I do contend that SHAHR RAMADAN is called such specifically because of the occurrence of the harvest moon - which is a distinct characteristic of the moon unique to the entire year. It also connects why God speaks of AYAMAN MADOODAT (countable days) in 2:184 which is how long the harvest moon lasts during this month.






<<< 2 I had always thought that 2:184 is directly linked to 2:185, but it doesn't seem that way. I now read the verses as meaning two separate fasts are required. One, the whole lunisolar month of Ramadan. Two, other days as well ("days numbered" or "limited days" are the translations I've seen), which are left to the believer to decide, a very personalised attitude that runs throughout the Quran (just as how much money to give to charity is left to the individual, so the amount of extra days fasting is left to the individual). The Quran doesn't want people fasting every day or for most of the year, so it simply says: "limited days", that is you choose how many and when.>>>>





At one point I thought the same. I felt it may be referring to two different 'fasts' and I would not dismiss this idea as valid. But to be fair, it is NOT very clear that it is two different fasts either.


However, if we pay attention to the entire passage we will see they are all connected and referring to the same SIYAM:


One method I used is to actually remove the verse-stops and connect 2:184 to 185 and 186. We will see the verses actually flow into one another as ONE complete thought:


"O you who believe, ordained upon you is the SIYAM (withholding)... that you may become guarded a countable number of days. So whoever of you is ill or traveling then a number of other days... and to SIYAM is best for you if you only knew month of Ramadan... So whoever witnesses the month he shall withhold/abstain it... God wishes ease for you and... to complete the numbers..."


So by removing the verse-stops we see these three verses flow nicely into one another.






<<<<3. The "extremes" you reference could just as easily mean the ends of the moon cycle. What is more extreme than the sudden appearance of a new moon, signifying the start of a new month? All other months are determined in this fashion, and so why shouldn't the month of Ramadan? The month "Ramadan" existed in pre-Islamic Arabia. The Quran is referring to something that the initial direct recipients of the Quran understood: this particular month that you call Ramadan, and in which the Quran was revealed, is the one you fast.  >>>>


I do contend that Ramadan may refer to the 'extreme' display of the moon as red and large.


To my understanding, the month starts and ends with a crescent as noted by the verses I cited in the video. The full-moon takes place in the nearing parts of the middle of the month.


But when God says 'countable number of days' and 'whoever witnesses the month abstain it' the connection becomes in reference to a specific number of days. The only significance to Ramadan is the event of the Harvest moon.








<<<<4. Lastly, and probably more controversially, why should sighting the Harvest moon be a requirement to knowing when to fast? What if it's overcast and nobody sees it where you're living? You would have missed the start of the fast for no reason whatever. >>>>




Well this is the same argument made by traditionlists who insist the need to see a crescent moon with the naked eye. The fact is the harvest moon is simply the nearest full-moon to the equinox - plus at least one day before and one day after. This can be easily calculated without problems.






<<<<Not that it's necessarily relevant but fasting for a whole month is something that was demanded of previous receivers of scripture (see various verses of the Bible) and the surrounding monotheists would have understood, especially a lunisolar month. >>>>


I have not read the bible, but I have inquired with several people and asked them about any ordinance to fast in the bible. I've been told, and please correct me if I am wrong, there is not a verse that commands the people to fast. The ONLY verse that actually commands fasting is ONE day on YAWM KAPUR. I would be interested to see any verse which tells the believers to fast.






<<<Fasting during an indistinct and easily missed few days when the moon changes doesn't fit the Quran and would seem pagan to the monotheists in the Arabia of the Prophet. >>>


As noted in the video, the entire passage of 2:183-188 isn't speaking of 'fasting' from food or drink or sex. This is a huge culture mix that, unfortunately, crept into Islam.  The SIYAM spoken of in this passage is to be observed on the Harvest moon days/nights. This will be clarified in the next video God willing.




Peace and God Bless you brother.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 11:33:04 AM
Salam Wakas,

Is it intransitive in Arabic though?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17)
No it is transitive.

Quote
You may also find this interesting:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
Thank you for the link.
I know this article.
I have great respect for his research work and his willingness to discover the historical reality behind the layers of sedimentation of generations following the revelation and death of the prophet.
I am agree with somes aspects But I do not agree with him on some crucial points.

Major disagreements:

1) He said : "A common misconception is that the word" shahr "means month. However, the term "shahr" does not mean month "
=> NO the word "shahr" means full month but the full lunar month because it is identifiable (visible) with the view by looking at the lunar phases.
=> In addition all other occurrences of this word in the quran point to 1 whole month or several months.

2) He said : "2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it” "
=> Incomprehensible translation into English. He does not use the verb "To fast" which is instransitive. It's a good point. The word "To abstain" certainly is more appropriate in relation with the deep meaning of the root word but how to abstain from a full moon?
In English this sentence does not make sense.
Unless the pronoun "it" points to a word other than the word "full moon" but it is not the intention of the author

3) He said : "Ramadan can be translated as the moment of diffussion of "intense heat".
=> He identifies this month around the summer solstice. But it is too early in the season to reflect the significance of the month of Ramadan). Based on the roots and research of historians, the first 5 months of the year are:The Arabic name of the months, especially that of the two rabia (rabia al awal and rabia ath-thani) was to correspond to spring, before the two dry months of joumada (joumada al oula and joumada ath-thania) and the "burning" month" of Ramadan so perhaps in august (like the month of av for the jews) or in september (if we follow the actual order by name, 9th month from january to december).

4) He said : "9:36. The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; The God is with the forethoughtful.
 My translation:
"True/Indeed, the counting (enumerate) of months for God is twelve lunar months by a decree of God the day He created the heavens and the earth. Among them, four are sacred, this is the right custom / ad-din al-qayyim. During [these months] do not be unfair to yourself [by transgressing them]. But, fight the polytheists in all these times, just as they fight you there; and know that God is with those who fear him. ", S9.V36.
=> The purpose of this verse is pragmatic: God gives you the opportunity to fight those who transgress the truce by fighting you in these sacred months, even though you yourself refused to do so out of respect for this sacredness. Apart from rationalist arguments, this information confirms that the term sacrality is contractual and that it is obviously not a divine prescription but a tradition instituted by the Arabs themselves, the historical fact is well During these four months, the Bedouins could move to trade without fear of an attack or to go to safety on various pilgrimages.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanifaman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kanamareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyaminokhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedubikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo AllahaAAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

It says whoever WITNESSES/SHAHIDA the Shahra. My question is, how do you witness a Month? You can however, witness a Full Moon like this one:


Salam Sardar,

First point in red : Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?

Second point in red : you are right. We canno't witness (with eyes) a full month. But you can attest the Truth of Something happen in this month right ? Look at the specific scheme "SHAHIDA" in the quran and you will discover that it is Matching better with the definition of "to attest the Truth of Something" in many cases.
I want to add that in real life you testify/witness Something that it was happened in the PAST...

NB : Thank you for the video links

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: The Sardar on May 20, 2019, 11:58:42 AM
Salam Safar,

First point in red : Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?

I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 12:04:40 PM
I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?
In Arabic, the verb falyaṣum'hu in 2:185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 20, 2019, 01:19:43 PM
In Arabic, the verb falyaṣum'hu in 2:185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear.

What is the pattern (Baab) of this verb?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 02:16:37 PM
What is the pattern (Baab) of this verb?
Please we are deviating from my original post on this subject.
how to reconcile the month of Ramadan (29-30 days) with the expression "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" (3-10 days) ?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 20, 2019, 02:22:38 PM
Please we are deviating from my original post on this subject.
how to reconcile the month of Ramadan (29-30 days) with the expression "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" (3-10 days) ?

I wrote as to what the word is to enable perceiving its meanings.

Passive Participle: indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.

I don't know from where you got its meanings as
Quote
Low number between 3 and 10 days.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 03:43:26 PM
I wrote as to what the word is to enable perceiving its meanings.

Passive Participle: indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.

I don't know from where you got its meanings as
Have a look at my first post ! But i made a mistake (bad reflex) => It is not Lane's lexicon but  Lisan al-Arab ! sorry. ???

Ok i repeat it again :

 - Classic Dictionnary :

1 / In the li?an al-3arab (dico reference), we read: "ayy?m ma3d?d?t" corresponds to ten days but literally it means "a limited number of days".
2 / In Kazimirski (very good dico Arabic-French), one can also read: "ayy?m ma3d?da" means "few days".
=> In short, what must be remembered is that this expression literally means a limited number of days but that, in the quran, it corresponds to 3 to 10

 - Quran : re-read my first post for quranic examples (confirmation)

 - For the Grammatical rule :

Ayyaman is a plural with 3 minimum and no maximum and ma3doudatin just block this plural to 10
for the rule of the plural in "alif ta" I refer to Nouman ali Khan
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 20, 2019, 04:24:30 PM
Have a look at my first post ! But i made a mistake (bad reflex) => It is not Lane's lexicon but  Lisan al-Arab ! sorry. ???

Ok i repeat it again :

 - Classic Dictionnary :

1 / In the li?an al-3arab (dico reference), we read: "ayy?m ma3d?d?t" corresponds to ten days but literally it means "a limited number of days".
2 / In Kazimirski (very good dico Arabic-French), one can also read: "ayy?m ma3d?da" means "few days".
=> In short, what must be remembered is that this expression literally means a limited number of days but that, in the quran, it corresponds to 3 to 10

 - Quran : re-read my first post for quranic examples (confirmation)

 - For the Grammatical rule :

Ayyaman is a plural with 3 minimum and no maximum and ma3doudatin just block this plural to 10
for the rule of the plural in "alif ta" I refer to Nouman ali Khan

دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود،

ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو

Where is it (3 blocked to 10 days)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 08:48:01 PM
دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود،

ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو

Where is it (3 blocked to 10 days)
You know Brother classical dictionnary are useful but keep in mind that you can find almost all what you want to justify your OWN interpretation of texts (quran here - Cf. below).
This research must be confirmed by EVIDENCES (quran himself first, real history..).

So let me show you again ?vidences by searching the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." (in four occurrences inclued 2:184) :

 - (2:203) (2:80 is similar) And remember God during a few limited number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
=> 3 days (Hajj)

 - (3:24) That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few limited days," and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
=> 7 days as the number of days in one Week (see Tafsir from "ibn kathir" and the importance of the number 7 for the jews)

I can also add the fifth occurrences as Passive participle / Adjective (without Ayyam..) :
- (2:20) And they sold him for a low price, a mere few dirhams, and they regarded him as insignificant.
=> Few coins like <= 10



----- CAUTIOUS - lexical entries: -----
Lexical Analysis obviously uses the dictionaries of the classical Arabic language.
However, this step requires some precautions, because we must be aware that Koranic Arabic is not classical Arabic and, since it is not really a living language, the first major encyclopaedias of the Arabic language do not do not necessarily present a synchronic state of the Qur'anic vocabulary.
In reality, the Koranic language and, at present, its vocabulary, are only partly known to us through the oriented prism of the first exegesis of the Koran.
From the beginning, the first dictionaries had the ambition to fix the canon of the Arabic language, not so much from the Koranic language, but from a linguistic normalization of the Koran. This was achieved gradually by the collection of a lexical fund drawn from the various idioms of Arabia as well as by the use of so-called pre-Islamic poetry, but also by the broad influence of Orthodox Exegesis on the way of constitution. On this last point, it is easy to note that the history of the elaboration of these corpus reveals strong diachronic and anachronistic circular links between the lexicons of the Arabic language and Exegesis.
Thus, it seems that the oldest known lexicon of the Arabic language is the kitab al-'ayn of Ibn Aḥmad al-Far?hid? [m. 175 H.]. However, in establishing the meanings of terms, the latter has very often resorted to terminological explanations drawn directly from exegeses of the Koran. As a result, this phenomenon will be more and more marked as evidenced by the lexicon of the Quranic terms of Ar-Ragib al-Iṣfah?n?: Mufradat alf?ẓ al-qur'?n, end of the 6th century H.The loop is completed when the compilation of the great encyclopaedia of the Arabic language: Al-lis?n al-'arab completed by Muhammad ibn Manẓ?r at the end of the seventh century hegira.
Finally, in a concrete way, note that if these large lexical Arabic corpus quote their exegetical or hadistic sources, the current bilingual classical dictionaries do not report them unfortunately, which has the consequence of increasing the lexical indistinction and amplifying the lexical drift during translation processes.
In the end, it is a good part of the Koranic vocabulary that has been reduced in meaning or, on the contrary, amplified according to exegetical and legal developments subsequent to the Koran.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: huruf on May 21, 2019, 01:06:34 AM
There exists in Spanish the expression: "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts. Dependign on the matter it could mean that it does not go very far for certain purposes.

My feeling is that it does nto set a fixed number, but rather a number which may be tailored to the needs and capacities of the concerned person. Which is also consistent with the general outlook of the Qur'an which tends to give freedom to each one to tailor his or her own way through whatever process which may  be undertaken.

If somebody is not capable for whatever reason to fast one month, may be a number of days is better tha nothing, right? Do not refrain for doing the lesser just because you are nto able to do the greatest.

Salaam 
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 03:25:47 AM
There exists in Spanish the expression: "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts. Dependign on the matter it could mean that it does not go very far for certain purposes.

My feeling is that it does nto set a fixed number, but rather a number which may be tailored to the needs and capacities of the concerned person. Which is also consistent with the general outlook of the Qur'an which tends to give freedom to each one to tailor his or her own way through whatever process which may  be undertaken.

If somebody is not capable for whatever reason to fast one month, may be a number of days is better tha nothing, right? Do not refrain for doing the lesser just because you are nto able to do the greatest.

Salaam

Salam Huruf,

Thank you for your intervention.
Indeed from a relative point of view you are right. If you think the Qur'an is talking about a month of fasting based on a lunar calendar then I wish you a good Ramadan and God send you his graces so that you get closer to him (like my wife !  ::)).
And if you are faithful to God and you do good works then we are brothers in faith and even better, beyond that we are brothers in humanity first.

Now my target is to understand what the Qur'an actually says (whether it is in agreement or not with our traditional understandings), which speaks to an Arab people of the 7th century who had their linguistic uses that could evolve thereafter.

And the use of this era was to use the expression "Ayyaman ma'doodat" as meaning a very limited number of days between 3 and 10, as evidenced by the Koran itself. After, everyone is free to accept it or not.
Same, when I see the English translations of the passage of 2:185 by using the expression "Fast it" it is my duty to emphasize the fact that this expression is incorrect grammatically. This is a truthful fact. Muhammad ASAD saw the problem and he added the word "throughout it" or Corpus.coran to add the word "in it" that does not appear in the Arabic expression. God warns us enough in the Qur'an not to change the meaning. Then everyone is free to accept the truth or not.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: huruf on May 21, 2019, 04:38:59 AM
Yes the formulation is unusual. If you mean somebody todo the whole month, there are many ways which you can underlie that it is indeed the whole month. The formulation, to me, suggests tht you are conscious of it, of the occasion, the month for the purpose or in the purpose of fasting. You might fast any number of days or months on some other ocassions, but you are told to fast this one. It may mean that you become conscious that you are part of a community who remembers God and all those things that are touched by the fast, like the consciousness of those who may suffer from want or hunger, all living beings. So the important thing in this case would not be the number of days or how hard you do fast but rather that you do it as part of a common endeavour to improve the sould of your society with the people who shares your same aims and spiritual endeavour.

Salaam
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 21, 2019, 08:30:27 AM

Quote
There exists in Spanish the expression: "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts.


وَقَالُوا۟ لَن تَمَسَّنَا ٱلنَّارُ إِلَّآ أَيَّامٙا مَّعْدُودَةٙۚ

Take note that they (Clergy) told people, "The Fire will certainly never touch us except for a period of numbered days".

قُلْ أَتَّخَذْتُـمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ عَهْدٙا فَلَن يُخْلِفَ ٱللَّهُ عَهْدَهُ  ۥٓۖ

You question them, "Have you people succeeded in obtaining a contract from Allah the Exalted in this regard? If that is the case, Allah the Exalted will never breach His contracted obligation!

أَمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَـى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ.2:80٨٠

Or, that not being the case, are you people attributing to Allah the Exalted that about which you have no knowledge?"  [2:80]


وَلَئِنْ أَخَّرْنَا عَنْـهُـمُ ٱلْعَذَابَ إِلَـىٰٓ أُمَّةٛ مَّعْدُودَةٛ لَّيَقُولُنَّ مَا يَحْبِسُهُۥٓۗ

Take note; if Our Majesty delayed the infliction of punishment from them towards a determined/counted period (respite period) they would certainly say: "What detains that infliction?"

أَ لَا يَوْمَ يَأْتِيـهِـمْ لَيْسَ مَصْرُوفٙا عَنْـهُـمْ

The fact is that the Day it comes to them it will not be averted from them.

وَحَاقَ بِـهِـم مَّا كَانُوا۟۟ بِهِۦ يَسْتَـهْزِءُونَ .11:08٨

And that hemmed them about which they consciously adopted a non serious jesting attitude keeping themselves playful with. [11:08]

وَمَا نُؤَخِّرُهُۥٓ إِلَّا لِأَجَلٛ مَّعْدُودٛ .11:104١٠٤

Beware, Our Majesty are postponing it but for the terminating moment of a determined duration. [11:104]

وَشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخْسٛ دَرَٟهِـمَ مَعْدُودَةٛ

And they (the caravan merchants) sold him (minor boy Yu'suf) at the lowered bargain price, by settled number of Dirhams ?

وَكَانُوا۟۟ فِيهِ مِنَ ٱلزَّٟهِدِينَ .12:20٢٠

While they (the caravan people) were interested more to give him away-get rid of him. [12:20]

The Passive Participle (derived from passive verb) refers to something which is counted by number. Its exact number-quantity is not disclosed.


وَقَالُوا۟ لَن تَمَسَّنَا ٱلنَّارُ إِلَّآ أَيَّامٙا مَّعْدُودَةٙۚ

Take note that they (Clergy) told people, "The Fire will certainly never touch us except for a period of numbered days".

قُلْ أَتَّخَذْتُـمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ عَهْدٙا فَلَن يُخْلِفَ ٱللَّهُ عَهْدَهُ  ۥٓۖ

You question them, "Have you people succeeded in obtaining a contract from Allah the Exalted in this regard? If that is the case, Allah the Exalted will never breach His contracted obligation!

أَمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَـى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ.2:80٨٠

Or, that not being the case, are you people attributing to Allah the Exalted that about which you have no knowledge?"  [2:80]


أَيَّامٙا مَّعْدُودَٟتٛۚ

The Fasting is during a fixed number of days; day and night-29 or 30 of the lunar month.

فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُـم مَّرِيضٙا أَوْ عَلَـىٰ سَفَرٛ فَعِدَّةٚ مِّنْ أَيَّامٛ أُخَرَۚ

Sequel to this imposition one may adjourn it who is suffering amongst you some sickness or is embarking on a journey. Thereby, the adjourned fasting be accomplished to the count during the days of another month.


وَٱذْكُرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ فِـىٓ أَيَّامٛ مَّعْدُودَٟتٛۚ

And you people remember and celebrate Allah the Exalted during appointed days ?

فَمَن تَعَجَّلَ فِـى يَوْمَيْـنِ فَلَآ إِثْـمَ عَلَيْهِ وَمَن تَأَخَّرَ فَلَآ إِثْـمَ عَلَيْهِۚ لِمَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ

For reason that someone hurried back in two days there is not at all blemish-worthy is upon such person, and he who postponed his departure there is not at all blemish-worthy him, too. This is for one who did it consciously in the cause of Allah the Exalted  [not personal considerations of commerce].


ذَٟلِكَ بِأَنَّـهُـمْ قَالُوا۟ لَن تَمَسَّنَا ٱلنَّارُ إِلَّآ أَيَّامٙا مَّعْدُودَٟتٛۖ

This eluding from the Book (Qur?ān) they justify by proclaiming; "The Hell-Fire will certainly not touch us in the Hereafter except for a period of numbered days".

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on May 21, 2019, 09:41:30 AM
Salam!
I think ایاما معدودۃ are  (upto) 10 since almost every human being can count fingers of his/her hands with a very little effort.
If AQ is a universal messahe then its rulings should be applicable worldwide. Yet I am not 100% sure about this number. Need solid proof.
Peace!
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 21, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
peace,

BUT the problem is that the Quran seems to tell us in 2:185 to "fast" 1 whole lunar month is about 29-30 days!...
How do you fast a full-moon ?

Is “Fast the (whole) month” = Fast 24x30 hours? Do you take it in that way?
Not right? It’s common sense. And you understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.

Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).

And even before saying this (Fast the full moon 2:185), Qur'an says Fasting is for Ayyaman ma'doodat (2:184).
Thus fast the Full moon + Ayyaman ma'doodat.


=> In addition all other occurrences of this word in the quran point to 1 whole month or several months.

Let’s test for the verse 2:226,

1. Shahr = The whole lunar cycle
Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle, now they have to count 4 whole lunar cycle right, but, since it’s the 14th day, they have to wait ~15 days extra(which is not included in the count), for the 1st shahr (lunar cycle) to begin i.e. the total waiting period will be 4 lunar cycles + extra 15 days of the beginning. If it's on the 4th day of the lunar cycle, then ~25 not-in-count days.
But the Qur’an does not mention solutions for such cases.
At the same time if the couple estranged right before the beginning of the lunar cycle, then they need to wait only/exactly 4 lunar cycles.

2. Shahr = Full moon
Here, no such problems in counting -whether couple estranges on 1st day or on 14th day, they just have to wait for the full moon to happen for counting the 1st shahr.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 10:21:49 AM
Yes the formulation is unusual. If you mean somebody todo the whole month, there are many ways which you can underlie that it is indeed the whole month. The formulation, to me, suggests tht you are conscious of it, of the occasion, the month for the purpose or in the purpose of fasting. You might fast any number of days or months on some other ocassions, but you are told to fast this one. It may mean that you become conscious that you are part of a community who remembers God and all those things that are touched by the fast, like the consciousness of those who may suffer from want or hunger, all living beings. So the important thing in this case would not be the number of days or how hard you do fast but rather that you do it as part of a common endeavour to improve the sould of your society with the people who shares your same aims and spiritual endeavour.

Salaam

Salam Huruf,

 :bravo:(in Black). Even if i don't think like you about the definition of the term "SIYAM" i hope your douaa (request) will be listening by humanity.

Never forget the purpose of Something..For me, SIYAM is so that, perhaps (laʿallakum = maybe..), being preserve the day of judgment of the evil by doing good deeds.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 10:24:58 AM
Salam!
I think ایاما معدودۃ are  (upto) 10 since almost every human being can count fingers of his/her hands with a very little effort.
If AQ is a universal messahe then its rulings should be applicable worldwide. Yet I am not 100% sure about this number. Need solid proof.
Peace!

Salam brother,

Good reasoning but solid proof already exist in the Quran and the science of anthropology

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 10:47:10 AM
peace,

Is “Fast the (whole) month” = Fast 24x30 hours? Do you take it in that way?
Not right? It’s common sense. And you understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.

Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).

And even before saying this (Fast the full moon 2:185), Qur'an says Fasting is for Ayyaman ma'doodat (2:184).
Thus fast the Full moon + Ayyaman ma'doodat.

Salam Brother,

I don't really understand you.. :-\ Sorry.

Just a remark. You said : "Fast the full moon" but it is grammatically incorrect . you canno't say that.
You can say :"Fast throughout the full-moon" but the word "throughout" is missing from the arabic expression in the Quran.

Quote
Let’s test for the verse 2:226,

1. Shahr = The whole lunar cycle
Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle, now they have to count 4 whole lunar cycle right, but, since it’s the 14th day, they have to wait ~15 days extra(which is not included in the count), for the 1st shahr (lunar cycle) to begin i.e. the total waiting period will be 4 lunar cycles + extra 15 days of the beginning. If it's on the 4th day of the lunar cycle, then ~25 not-in-count days.
But the Qur’an does not mention solutions for such cases.
At the same time if the couple estranged right before the beginning of the lunar cycle, then they need to wait only/exactly 4 lunar cycles.

2. Shahr = Full moon
Here, no such problems in counting -whether couple estranges on 1st day or on 14th day, they just have to wait for the full moon to happen for counting the 1st shahr.

Shahr = 1 lunar month and It is a period of time like in average 29-30 days a month. Full-moon is just a stage like crescent?
So where is the problem ?
In your example : "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution : you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 21, 2019, 11:30:59 AM
Quote
You can say :"Fast throughout the full-moon"

Moon is always changing. "Throughout the full moon" is meaningless proposition.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 21, 2019, 11:38:48 AM
Somewhere I had invited attention to see which Baab this verb relates to whereby its meanings would have become explicit.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/3.gif)

Prefixed conjunction فَ  which shows relation of cause/reason and effect/Apodosis clause + [لام] Imperative Particle +  Verb: Imperfect; Third Person; Singular; Masculine; Mood: Jussive; Subject pronoun hidden  + Suffixed Pronoun: Third person; singular; masculine; accusative state, referring to Time Adverb; مصدر صَوْمٌ-باب نَصَرَ Verbal Noun.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 11:47:14 AM
Moon is always changing. "Throughout the full moon" is meaningless proposition.
Except in a figurative manner if you mean full-moon as the day where full-moon appears in the sky.
But "Fast the full-moon" or "Fast the month of Ramadan" are meaningless propositions, in a proper manner or figurative manner (No C.O.D accepted)
Anyway Quran doesn't say that.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 21, 2019, 03:28:15 PM
Except in a figurative manner if you mean full-moon as the day where full-moon appears in the sky.
But "Fast the full-moon" or "Fast the month of Ramadan" are meaningless propositions, in a proper manner or figurative manner (No C.O.D accepted)
Anyway Quran doesn't say that.

Pl try to understand Post 25
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 21, 2019, 07:31:33 PM
My english is problematic, I have made some correction. Try now :)

Quote
Is “Fast the whole month” = Fast 24hoursx30days? Do you take it in that way?
Not right. It’s common sense. Because we understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.

Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).


Shahr = 1 lunar month and It is a period of time like in average 29-30 days a month. Full-moon is just a stage like crescent…
So where is the problem ?
In your example : "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution : you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.

NO this you can apply for Gregorian months because it's just arbitrary counts.

if you consider shahr=the whole lunar cycle, then it's ALWAYS the whole lunar cycle.


Quote
In your example : "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution : you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.

here you cannot count 4 whole lunar cycle, you will count only 3 whole lunar cycle.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 21, 2019, 10:07:03 PM
here you cannot count 4 whole lunar cycle, you will count only 3 whole lunar cycle.

It's plural, should read 4/3 'whole lunar cycles'
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 21, 2019, 11:28:29 PM
It's plural, should read 4/3 'whole lunar cycles'
Salam brother,
Again sorry i respect your idea and i am probaby a simple guy but 4 months is equal to a duration.
If it Begins the 14th of january il will not start the 1st of February ! so it is as simple as that.

You said : "Is “Fast the whole month” = Fast 24hoursx30days? Do you take it in that way?" =>
I don't Believe that the verb "To fast" is the good translation for the verbal form of the word "SIYAM".
I just indicated in my first message that traditionnal view is problematic if you consider that "Ayyaman Ma'doodat" = 3-10 days.
So you have to resolve the problem and re-read my message but "Fast IT (=Full-moon)" is not grammatically correct (intransitive verb)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Layth on May 22, 2019, 12:05:30 AM
Salam Iyyaka,

There is another option to your question that you may not have considered:

2:183-184 is an independent command from 2:185.

So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).

It seems to me that this understanding can be  linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).

7:142   And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2019, 03:42:32 AM
Peace All.

I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?

It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?

And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...

What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2019, 05:14:52 AM
Peace All.

I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?

It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?

And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...

What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.

By imaginative flights.

In all the calendars of the world days of individual months are counted ones. The days of months are passive, meaning counted and finalized.

Each month has: أَیَّامࣰا مَّعۡدُودَ ٰ⁠تࣲۚ days that are numbered/counted.

It is adjectival phrase. Second noun is Passive Participle (derived from Passive verb)

It is in Accusative case. Instead of going in imaginative fields we should first determine why is it in accusative case and what is its function in the discourse.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Layth on May 22, 2019, 07:37:50 AM
Peace,

Quote
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!

I think terms like: "absolutely certain" set the wrong tone for learning or discussing.

The Quran does use 10 and 30 as numbers and describers.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2019, 07:58:09 AM
Peace,

I think terms like: "absolutely certain" set the wrong tone for learning or discussing.

The Quran does use 10 and 30 as numbers and describers.


وَٱلَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنكُـمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَٟجٙا

This is about those men who are caused detachment - parting from amongst you people (because of natural-accidental death, incidental-planned murder, or slaughter in the cause/war of Allah the Exalted) in circumstances that they are leaving behind their wives ?

يَتَـرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٛ وَعَشْـرٙاۖ

They (respective wives left behind) should wait-restrain their selves, honestly and sincerely, for a period of four lunar months and ten days (till the night start of eleventh lunar day).

فَإِذَا بَلَغْنَ أَجَلَـهُنَّ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُـمْ فِيمَا فَعَلْنَ فِـىٓ أَنفُسِهِنَّ بِٱلْمَعْـرُوفِۗ

Thereat, when they (wives left behind) have elapsed-crossed over the last moment of their prescribed duration, thereby there is no objection upon you people regards what these women decide-act about their selves in accordance with the known norms of the society.

وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيـرٚ .2:234٢٣٤

Remain mindful that Allah the Exalted is aware of all acts which you people keep doing. [2:234]


يَتَخَٟفَتُونَ بَيْنَـهُـمْ إِن لَّبِثْتُـمْ إِلَّا عَشْـرٙا .20:103١٠٣

They will be murmuring amongst themselves, "Not you remained in dead state except for ten days". [20:103]

نَّحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذْ يَقُولُ أَمْثَلُـهُـمْ طَرِيقَةٙ إِن لَّبِثْتُـمْ إِلَّا يَوْمٙا .20:104١٠٤

Our Majesty know fully what they say murmuring, when says the trailblazer of them, "you remained in dead state but for a day." [20:104]
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2019, 09:55:32 AM
Peace Layth.
I meant Qoran does not say fast 10 days or 30 days. These are assumptions..
Of course Qoran has the numbers 10 and 30 in different other verses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 22, 2019, 11:08:43 AM
Peace All.
I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?
It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?
And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.
Salam,

It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.

But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs : If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.

Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
   - Example : you will be agree that "ayyāman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyāman". It is an arabic  grammatical rule different from English grammar.
    - Another example. When you say to your friend : "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.

So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyāman maʿdūdātin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.

-------------------------------------
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural :
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number:

-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes: (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la

-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)

I give you an example: The word CHAHR which means MONTH

To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say: ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives:  CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)

the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.

you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an:
(9:2) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...

As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra:
(9:36): "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve [months], in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.

While in English, translation does not change.

To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
"
-------------------------------------
Salam Iyyaka,
There is another option to your question that you may not have considered:
2:183-184 is an independent command from 2:185.
So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).
It seems to me that this understanding can be  linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).
7:142   And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."
Salam Layth,

Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2:183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts : (2:183-184) and (2:185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2:184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2:185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.

But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7:142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..

However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2019, 11:35:36 AM
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this:

but between 3 and 10.   for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this:

but between 3 and 10.   for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace

He is considering it noun of paucity whereas Maadudat has nothing to do with paucity.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 22, 2019, 12:52:04 PM
Salam,

It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.

But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs : If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.

Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
   - Example : you will be agree that "ayyāman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyāman". It is an arabic  grammatical rule different from English grammar.
    - Another example. When you say to your friend : "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.

So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyāman maʿdūdātin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.

-------------------------------------
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural :
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number:

-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes: (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la

-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)

I give you an example: The word CHAHR which means MONTH

To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say: ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives:  CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)

the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.

you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an:
(9:2) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...

As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra:
(9:36): "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve [months], in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.

While in English, translation does not change.

To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
"
-------------------------------------Salam Layth,

Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2:183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts : (2:183-184) and (2:185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2:184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2:185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.

But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7:142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..

However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.

Peace
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this:
but between 3 and 10.   for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace
Peace Good logic (so good nickname :D).

I respect that you don't want to listen experts on Classical arabic grammar rules.
So it remains Al-Quran and your logic ! ;)

(2:203:5) وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.

(3:24:9) ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant [Jews -purgatory]
=> 7 days.

       (2:184:2) أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "A few number of days."
       => 3-10 days or 30 ?

(2:80:7) maʿdūdatan وَقَالُوا لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَةً // parrallel with ayat (3:24)
=> 7 days.

(12:20:5) maʿdūdatin وَشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَرَاهِمَ مَعْدُودَةٍ "And they sold him for a low price, a few dirhams, and they regarded him as insignificant.
=> A Few ? some coins ? 3-10 or 30 coins ?

(11:8:7) maʿdūdatin وَلَئِنْ أَخَّرْنَا عَنْهُمُ الْعَذَابَ إِلَىٰ أُمَّةٍ مَعْدُودَةٍ لَيَقُولُنَّ مَا  "And if We delay for them the retribution until a time-limit set, they will say: "What has kept it?" Alas, on the day it comes to them, nothing will turn it away from them, and they will be surrounded by that which they used to mock.
=> A Few/some generations ? 3-10 or 30 generations ?
70:6 They see it (day of retribution) as far away.
70:7 And We see it as near.
-------------------
For the ayat (2:184) my research (Adding rhetorical analysis) points forward to 10 days. But it is too long to develop proofs here because i need to expose all the rhetorical analysis of surah 2 (the biggest one !).

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 22, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote
(2:203:5) وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.

وَٱذۡكُرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ فِیۤ أَیَّامࣲ مَّعۡدُودَ ٰ⁠تࣲۚ

What is the context? Which are days talked about; hurrying what in two days, and delaying what?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 22, 2019, 03:33:32 PM
Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote:

(2:203:5) وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.

(3:24:9) ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant [Jews -purgatory]
=> 7 days.

The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
 It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 22, 2019, 11:12:12 PM
Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote:
(2:203:5) وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.
(3:24:9) ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَاتٍ maʿdūdātin "That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant [Jews -purgatory]
=> 7 days.
The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
 It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam Good logic,

Yes i understand your assumption. Like @Mazhar you think like people the option 3 i mentionned in my first post is correct.
I respect and i understand this way to think because like that there is no interpretation problem between ayats 2:184 and 2:185, without using abrogation technic. But what it interests me is what God said in the Quran, happy with or not.

But i don't understand why you don't understand that this expression means a very few Number (between 3 and 10 so yes it can be flexible that's why God uses this expression like arab from the beginning of the 7th century used it). Please read carefully my posts.
Also, have you read the passage about the plural concerning the word SHAHR ?

I try to find solid proofs from quran himself. After everyone is free to accept them or not. God knows better.
So we have  2 scenarios and i have choosen the first one - more logic (i repeat scenarios in the order i mentionned above  (in days)):

First :     3 - 7 - 10 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10

Second: 3 - 7 - 30 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10

---- Other proof -------

As i said to@Wakas, 2:183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (No "wa" or "fa" or "inna" or "aw"...to separate these 2 parts)  :

- (2:183-184) => General recommendation
- (2:185-187) => Itemize the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.

BUT these 2 parts are linked.
You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2:184) doesn't appears in the second part (2:185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who REALLY desire to make a "SIYAM".

So, this organization will not be possible if "Ayyaman Maadoudat" means "Numbered/Counted…"

------------------------------

NB : again, i made others researchs to undertsand 2:183-187 (misunderstood like 22:40 i already mentionned in another subject)and it confirms the first scenario

Peace and please God "...My Lord, increase my knowledge." (20:114)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 23, 2019, 01:39:14 AM
peace good logic,

The same term ‘Ayyamn ma’doodat’ is used in Hajj verse(2:203), where the count is 3-10(2:196, 189) [Qur’anic proof]


2:203 "And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat, so who hurried in two days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"

The context of 2:203 is Hajj, so
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat = remember God in Hajj days -----------------(1)

2:196 says “so fasting three days in the Hajj”  => normal Hajj days are 3 ---------------(2)

Combining (1) & (2)
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat => remember God in Hajj days => remember God in 3 days (normal case).

Applying in 2:203,
"And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat/3 days(normal case), so who hurried in 2 days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"

Now we have to find the extent of delaying (i.e. 3+), Coming back to 2:196

“…so what became easy/possible from the offering, so who does not find, so fasting three days in the Hajj, and seven (days) if/when you returned, that is ten complete (days), that (is) to whom not is his family present (near/at) the Temple the Forbidden/Sacred...”

The remaining 7 days of fasting is also part of the Hajj. Isn’t it?
i.e. among those who cannot find an offering, the natives of the Sacred Temple complete their remaining part(fasting) of Hajj by 7 more days of fasting. So they can continue their Hajj practices in these 7 days if they want to delay/do more. This is also applicable for non-natives if they do not want to return after 3 days. See 2:196(..and seven (days) if/when you returned..).

i.e.  maxmum Hajj days are 10. It’s also observed from 2:189 (Full moon to crescent stage)

Quote from article http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html (http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html)
“We also know from 2:189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent”

Thus Ayyamn ma’doodat = 3-10 days.

Still, do you think shahr=the whole lunar cycle?

How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -4:92)

But if shahr = Full-moon, two consecutive full-moons is no that much hard i.e. 10 days(since crescents provide timing -2:189) of the 1st full-moon, then after ~20 days interval (no sawm) again 10 days from the next full-moon.(equivalent to two Ramadan)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 23, 2019, 03:05:40 AM
Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!

Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 24, 2019, 01:07:53 AM
Quote
How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -4:92)

He would already be in deep distress for what happened to his companion by his hand.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 26, 2019, 12:31:23 PM
Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!

Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam Good logic,Mohammed,

From my point of view, even if we disagree with the definition of the word "Shahr", Mohammed was right when He pointed towards ayats number 2:196 (the word SIYAM appears) and 2:203. All is linked, connected in the Quran as i try to demonstrate through Rhetorical analysis of the text (start from his context and don't make of this text a pretext!).

The problem, as you raised Good logic, it fits the definition of the word SIYAM.
In traditionnal view there is not a lot of difference : SIYAM is about "fasting from food, sex and drink" (Arabic root) and SWAM is about "fasting from speaking" (Probably Hebrew root). But if it was not the case...I let here the debate coz It is not the main subject of this thread.
I already provided parts of the answer by analysing the CRUCIAL importance of the ayat 22:40 here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg423877#msg423877 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg423877#msg423877)

As i mentionned above, ayats 2183-184 and 2:185-187 are 2 parts of a same subject (From the general to the particular).
and it is another quranic proof for saying "Ayaman Maadoudat" is about 3-10 days.
But ,the segment in 2:185 "and, who is sick or traveling, then, determination of other days. God desires for you the facility and not the difficulty " put the problem of an apparent repetition since it has already been said in 2:184" but who of you is sick or traveling, then determination of other days ". However, we note in 2:184 the presence of a collective: "among you" (minkum). On the other hand, since it is said in 2:185 "who is sick or on a journey" without this same brand of the collective, it is now that this concerns those who among the belivers are committed to make a SIYAM." And it confirms our analysis of the Rhetorical analysis of this part of text.

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 26, 2019, 01:31:26 PM
Quote
and SWAM is about "fasting from speaking"

If the word itself meant this what was the need of explaining it?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 26, 2019, 02:25:13 PM
I just said that traditionnal view don't make a big difference between SAWM and SIYAM by using for both the word FASTING.
Yes, as God explains it in the QURAN, SWAM means "Fasting from speaking to others (silence - please meditate on this)". But SIYAM doesn't mean FASTING coz you have a problem with ayat 2:185 (as i mentionned many times).

I had a look at your translation of ayat 2:185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaṣum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.


What the Quran literally says :

 - So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.


Your tanslation (some words in red don't even appear !)

 - Therefore, if he who reaching adulthood amongst you was present at home in this month, thereat, he should observe it by fasting.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 26, 2019, 03:22:13 PM
Quote
I had a look at your translation of ayat 2:185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaṣum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.


What the Quran literally says :

 - So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.

Perhaps I twice asked you to learn as to what type of verb is whereby you could perceive what means get added.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 27, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
Salam,
   
A-Quran uses twice the verbal form I of the noun ṣiyām (صِيَام) http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17) (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17))

Verb (form I) - to "fast" =>

   (2:184:27) taṣūmū - فَمَنْ تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَهُ وَأَنْ تَصُومُوا خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ
        V ? 2nd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
        PRON ? subject pronoun

   (2:185:17) falyaṣum'hu - فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
        RSLT ? prefixed result particle
        IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lām
        V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
        PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

2 remarks about these "mood" :

- subjunctive mood = Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality such as wish, emotion, possibility, judgement, opinion..It is confirmed by the Quran in 2:184 when he says "taṣūmū is better for you if you know". It confirms the definition of the word "kutiba" in 2:183 as "Strongly recommended, invited to.." but not an absolute obligation in "d?n".
We can also understand why God tells us, in 2:183-184, Something about "fid'yatun" = ransom...

- "jussive mood" = The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding etc..

So, in one case (2:183-184), God ask us strongly "to make a SIYAM" without obligation and in 2:185-187 to "make a SIYAM" but with obligation. It is an apparent contradiction ! Impossible for "ahl al-quran" (people of the Quran).

It confirms what express the rhetorical analysis of these ayats (2:183-187) that we have 2 blocks (but linked together) :

- 2:183-184 => General recommendation with a number known by arabs (for me 10 days) without obligation

- 2:185-187 => Details about how to make a siyam for people who commit to do it.


- - - - - - - - - - - - Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussive_mood#Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussive_mood#Arabic) =>
"
The jussive is used after the preposition li- 'to' to express a command to a third person.
ليفعله
li-yaf?al-hu
to-do.jus.3sg.masc-it
'Let him do it.'
"
The same scheme in (2:185) ! "then he should "fast" it." => another translation is wrong (Just the word "fast" is incorrect coz it is an intransitive verb). Otherwise it manipulates (good intention or not) what god says. It is clear.

- - - - - - - - - - - - Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 27, 2019, 12:43:26 PM
Quote
(2:185:17) falyaṣum'hu - فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
        RSLT ? prefixed result particle
        IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lām
        V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
        PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Good, this is the approach. Now also mention Baab of the verb. I think you know the concept of additional - special meanings of Baab.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 27, 2019, 01:48:50 PM
The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.

Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2:185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 27, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.

Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2:185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.

Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.

ضَرَبَ--يَضْْرِبُ
نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ

The verb in question is on pattern: نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is: مغالبة to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 27, 2019, 10:24:32 PM
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
ضَرَبَ--يَضْْرِبُ
نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ
The verb in question is on pattern: نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is: مغالبة to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.

ضَرَبَ--يَضْْرِبُ
نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ

The verb in question is on pattern: نَصََرَ---يَنْصُرُ. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is: مغالبة to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.

Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..) :

(2:185:17) falyaṣum'hu - فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
        RSLT – prefixed result particle
        IMPV – prefixed imperative particle lām
        V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
        PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Fasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.

Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I :

   Form 1 - فعل (fa3ala)
   Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in question

So the root سوم SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then سيم SYM (using here in 2:185).

NB : it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 28, 2019, 02:27:11 AM
peace good logic,

I never mixed sawm in Ramadan with that in Hajj.
The title of my post is/was What is Ayyamin ma’doodat according to the Qur’an


peace Iyyaka,

Probably, the reason for the difference (sawm/swiyaam) would be,

Maryam’s sawm was only for one day (singular)

19:26
…so when you see anyone from the human, so say: 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to The Merciful, a sawm/fast/abstinence, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human/humankind.

And in other occurrences (e.g. 2:183, 187, 196, 5:89) sawm is for more than one day/minimum 3days, that’s why swiyaam (plural).

And Maryam’s sawm was a special sawm, therefore it cannot be compared with sawm(swiyaam) in Ramadan.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 28, 2019, 02:33:48 AM
Peace Mohammed.
My point is this:
How few are "Ayam Maadudat"? It depends on the measure given.
 Like 29/30 days in the context of 365 days are "Ayam Maadudat", Why not?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mohammed. on May 28, 2019, 02:40:51 AM
The only source/guidance we have is the Qur'an.

So, if God says 'Ayym madoodat' for Ramadan, then the Qur'an itself should have the count of 'Ayym madoodat'.

Other than the Qur'an where we'll refer?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: good logic on May 28, 2019, 03:08:48 AM
Yes Mohammed, I agree.
Qoran says:"Faman Shahida Minkum Al Shahr Fal Yasumhu?"  i.e Yasumu Al Shahr? Or  Yasumu  how many days?.
It remains a question for you:  How many days does Qoran say ?

For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...

If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 28, 2019, 03:54:25 AM
For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...

If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam Good logic,

Not agree of course.
If you read carefully the thread you will find a lot of evidences from Qoran (grammatical, dictionnary, rhetorical analysis, "Tarteel "..). But your opinion is already done.

You said "Sawm is for one month". Again, in 2:185 it is not about Sawm but Siyam...(This one is For Mohammed too).

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 28, 2019, 07:11:53 AM
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.

Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..) :

(2:185:17) falyaṣum'hu - فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
        RSLT ? prefixed result particle
        IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lām
        V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
        PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Fasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.

Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I :

   Form 1 - فعل (fa3ala)
   Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in question

So the root سوم SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then سيم SYM (using here in 2:185).

NB : it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)

Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 28, 2019, 09:58:23 AM
Quote from: Mazhar
Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding :

- Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2:185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.

- The arabic use of the "PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 28, 2019, 11:14:59 AM
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding :

- Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2:185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.

- The arabic use of the "PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"

Why I proposed to study morphology? Reread your own this post you may get the point.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/9.gif)

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/8.gif)

What type of noun they are?

They are VERBAL Noun. And then study what is denoted by a verbal noun. May be it helps you to erase what has got internalized for lack of complete information.

A verbal noun denotes action or state without time reference relating to concept inherent in the Root. Third person singular masculine perfect verb is made from Verbal Noun.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 28, 2019, 01:22:54 PM
Let me suggest these studies also :

- Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM

- The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF

- Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 28, 2019, 01:31:44 PM
Let me suggest these studies also :

- Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM

- The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF

- Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..

Quote some source you obtained these Roots.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on May 30, 2019, 03:45:43 AM
Quote some source you obtained these Roots.

1)
Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry) :

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe : le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

2) Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm (http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm). So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.

3) History of alphabet arabic and starting with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet)
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Mazhar on May 30, 2019, 08:36:41 AM
1)
Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry) :

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe : le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

2) Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm (http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm). So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.

3) History of alphabet arabic and starting with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet)

Nothing relevant to the question. Where is a Root with only Two consonants?
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on July 29, 2019, 11:36:00 AM
Salam,

Here is a small interesting Quranic study to complete my study about the meaning of the word ma'dūdātin as a "weak plural form" (between 3 and 10) in (2:184).

Let's compare two verses (From "The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)):
- (12:43) 12:43 And the king said: "I'm still going to be dreaming of being fat with seven thin ones, and seven (multiple) green pods and some others who are dry. vision means if you are able to interpret the visions. "
- (2:261) The example of those who spend their money in the cause of God is like a seed that sprouts seven (multiple) pods, in each pod there is one hundred seeds; and God multiplies for whoever He chooses, and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

What interests us here is the comparison between identical expressions in the English translation but with a slight subtle difference in Arabic:
- (12:43) "wasab'a / multiple sunbulātin / ears (of corn)
- (2:261) "sab'a / multiple sanābila / ears (of corn)

Why this difference wanted by God? Because it is context dependent:
- (12:43) Context of dearth period = A weak Plural form which expresses this dearth period (a few..)
- (2:261) Context of abundance = A strong Plural form which expresses this generosity (a lot ..)

Now, the ending of the word sunbulātin in (12:43) corresponds to the ending of the word ma'dūdātin in 2:184.

We can admire the precision of the Quranic language that does not always glimpse its translation into other languages ​​such as English or French.

Peace.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: ade_cool on September 08, 2019, 07:52:54 AM
You know Brother classical dictionnary are useful but keep in mind that you can find almost all what you want to justify your OWN interpretation of texts (quran here - Cf. below).
This research must be confirmed by EVIDENCES (quran himself first, real history..).

So let me show you again ?vidences by searching the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." (in four occurrences inclued 2:184) :

 - (2:203) (2:80 is similar) And remember God during a few limited number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
=> 3 days (Hajj)


Salam Iyyaka,

Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2:203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok

Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?


Wassalam,
Ade
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 08, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
Salam Iyyaka,
Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2:203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok
Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?

Wassalam,
Ade
Salam ade_cool,

To be honest, for answering you with full evidences, i will need to expose at least all the rhetoric analysis of surah 2 and it is too big for this forum.
But i can try to answer you.

First, the context of 2:203 is about the Hajj.

The second thing important to know is that the performance of "Hajj", in the quran, is mainly divided into 2 temporal sequences.
The verse 2:203 is about the second and last temporal sequence and express the goal of this second sequence.
The duration of this second temporal sequence is NORMALLY of 3 full days. [NB : right now i hesitate on this question - 3 days for all the Hajj or for just the second temporal sequence)
So it is from the 4th day that the delay begins and not the 11th day as you underline it.
As Allah does not give more precision and he uses the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." we can logically think that people stayed a few extra days, between 4 and 10 days instead of the recommended 3 days.

Another interesting fact: why does not Allah specify these 3 days precisely without using the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat." ? Because it depends if you could execute the first sequence of Hajj (phase of offering).
If this is not the case, and you are not an inhabitant of the place of the Hajj, then it is not 3 days of reminders of god that you have to perform but 10 days (3 days in Hajj + 7 days once arrived home = 10 days).
The verses 2:196 and 2:203 are connected together..

Peace to you brother and i hope my response is clear.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: ade_cool on September 09, 2019, 08:08:30 AM
Salam Iyyaka,

Apologies but I am confused now.

Previously my understanding is you are establishing that ayyaman ma'dudat = 3-10 days.

Now, after ayyaman ma'dudat has been established to be 3-10 days, I am reading 2:203.

In the beginning of the verse, God commands to remember Him in 3-10 days. And then the verse continues, if for some reasons we are in hurry and cannot do within 3-10 days, then it is ok only 2 days. And then the verse continues, if we want to stay longer than what was commanded in the beginning (3-10 days), then it is also ok.

But from your answer it seems the maximum delay is 10 days. The reason why I am confused is because it would seem redundant to say it is ok if you delay when it is not really a delay (still within ayyaman ma'dudat, i.e. still within 3-10 days as mentioned in the beginning of the verse).

I hope you understand my confusion.


Wassalam,
Ade
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 09, 2019, 09:00:10 AM
Salam ade_cool,

Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).

Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2:203 is connected with 2:196.

So, you have 2 options :

Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.

Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days

So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2:103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (2:203:6)

Indeed, The second part of ayat 2:103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)

I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.

Peace brother
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Layth on September 09, 2019, 11:33:04 PM
Salam Iyyaka,

I like your analysis on this subject. Well written.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 10, 2019, 04:31:19 AM
Salam Iyyaka,

I like your analysis on this subject. Well written.
Thanks brother
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: ade_cool on September 10, 2019, 09:18:17 AM
Salam ade_cool,

Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).

Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2:203 is connected with 2:196.

So, you have 2 options :

Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.

Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days

So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2:103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (2:203:6)

Indeed, The second part of ayat 2:103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)

I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.

Peace brother

Salam Iyyaka,

Brother, there is nothing wrong with your English

Thanks for explaining further! I am starting to understand what you are saying ...I will let you know if I have further questions.


Wassalam,
Ade
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Wakas on September 10, 2019, 11:06:10 AM
peace,


-------------------------------------
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural :
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number:

-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes: (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la

-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)

I give you an example: The word CHAHR which means MONTH

To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say: ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives:  CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)

the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.

you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an:
(9:2) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...

As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra:
(9:36): "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve [months], in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.

While in English, translation does not change.

To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin"

This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 10, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Salam Wakas,

I think i have demonstrated by quranic's proofs the function of "ayyaman ma'dudat" as a weak plurial form between 3 and 10.
I recognized that they are scattered in several posts but many convincing QURANIC signs have been brought.
I am waiting for counter-examples by the Quran.
Allah's word is precise and detailed.

Yes this study needs a summary article.

Peace

Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Wakas on September 11, 2019, 01:49:02 AM
peace Iyyaka,

To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said: "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 11, 2019, 06:08:34 AM
peace Iyyaka,

To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said: "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
Ok sorry - i misunderstood.
Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: spodacus on September 11, 2019, 08:36:57 AM
Salam Iyakka,

can you conduct your plural root analysis on the verses in Surah 18 with respect to the sleepers in the cave? Can you extract that indeed the count of the sleepers is 7 with 8 including the dog?

Thanks!

Ok sorry - i misunderstood.
Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 11, 2019, 11:47:43 AM
Salam spodacus,

Sorry but i don't know how can i help you on this subject with the question of weak/strong plurial !

i imagine this question (number of people in the cave) has been already treated in this forum (i didn't make research).

I have 2 arabic linguistics to find the good number and also rhetorical proofs (but too big for this forum).

Peace
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: Iyyaka on September 12, 2019, 12:12:21 AM
Sorry,

ERRATUM - "I have 2 arabic linguistics to find the good number" => "I have 2 arabic linguistics proofs to find the good number". The word "proof" was missing in my previous intervention.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: spodacus on September 13, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
Salam, if you ever had the time to post your research, I would be very much interested in reading it. Thanks!  :peace:

Sorry,

ERRATUM - "I have 2 arabic linguistics to find the good number" => "I have 2 arabic linguistics proofs to find the good number". The word "proof" was missing in my previous intervention.
Title: Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on September 15, 2019, 01:16:03 PM
Salam!
As-salat, Ramadan/fasting and Hajj/zikr have a fast relation. There are total 10 days. One has to fast for these 10 days, however, if he wishes to perform hajj then it is of 3 days maximum. 2:196 tells that a person who does not find ھدی he/she can fast 3 days during Hajj. And after that 7 days' fast. This is for those whose family is not in the vicinity. If he/she is in hurry then perform hajj for 2 days {2:203} and 7 days of fasting. If he/she is travelling then fast during other days but complete the count of 10.
Month or moons الاھلتہ/شھر of Ramadan and Hajj are the same. میقات للناس و الحج، while As-salat is also موقوتا.
I have shared my understanding. Apologies for any mistakes. Would request you all think on these lines and hope you will see the connection.
Peace!