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General Issues / Questions => General Issues / Questions => Topic started by: Sarah on May 04, 2019, 10:07:00 AM

Title: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Sarah on May 04, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Peace,

so Ramadan's starting tomorrow right...

But some people say that the Qur'an doesn't teach to fast a whole month every year but rather, to fast a few day/s every month...

Youtuber Quran Centric talks about this...

What do you think?
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Wakas on May 04, 2019, 10:46:40 AM
I haven't reached any conclusions on this topic but this is a reasonable article:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html

Doesn't mean I agree with all of it.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Noon waalqalami on May 04, 2019, 11:32:35 AM
peace, it's the entire moon cycle after solstices i.e. north and south hemispheres.

2:185 شهر shahru/moon cycle رمضان ramadan (heat) الذى the one انزل descends فىه in it القران the qur?an/recitation هدى guidance للناس to the humankind وبىنت and clear signs من from الهدى the guidance والفرقان and the criterion فمن so who شهد shahida/witness منكم among you الشهر l-shahra/the moon cycle فلىصمه falyaṣum'hu/so should he/said person abstain/fast it ومن and who كان be مرىضا illness of او or على on سفر journey فعده faʿiddatun/so count من from اىام days اخر other ىرىد intended الله the god بكم with you الىسر the ease ولا and not ىرىد intended بكم with you العسر the hardship ولتكملوا and to complete ye of العده l-ʿidata/the count ولتكبروا and to magnify ye of الله the god على on ما what هدكم guide you ولعلكم and perhaps you تشكرون thanks giving

likewise, if wrong make it up on days other (hence evens out) or feed the poor.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/185/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgzRxqWN/ch2v178-185.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: brook on May 04, 2019, 07:06:35 PM
I haven't reached any conclusions on this topic but this is a reasonable article:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html

Doesn't mean I agree with all of it.

Ayman is right: SHAHR is full moon.

One of the proofs is the fact
that in the 365-day timespan between summer solstices there are 13 "shahr"s,
such as from summer solstice 2018 to summer solstice 2019.

If shahr was the whole lunar cycle lasting 29.5 days, all 13 of them would add up to 384 days
and they would not have enough room in the 365-day long time span.
They do in God's order; that is, all 13 "shahr"s have room in the 365-day time span
because they are each a full moon.

Another point is that it is impossible to fast the whole 29.5-day long lunar cycle
because God says  "Whoever of you witnesses the shahr shall fast it (2:185);
that is, you will witness the shahr first, and you will start fasting it AFTER that.
But when you witness the so-called Ramadan crescent in the evening,
the first day of Ramadan is already gone without you fasting it.

In order to cover up this fact
they claim*
that the Islamic cycle of a day begins with the setting, not the rising of the sun.

But their claim is ridiculous
because the crescent rises a few minutes after the sun and voyages in the sky towards the west
but it is not Ramadan down on the earth.
God reigns in the skies but fails on the earth?

_________________________________________________________________

* https://abdurrahman.org/2009/09/09/the-islamic-date-hijri-date-starts-after-maghrib/

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: amin on May 04, 2019, 09:17:42 PM
The need of fasting comes with balancing our body cycle, since long time Humans had unknowingly seen the benefit of fasting, as it improves their  surviving capabilities and strength.
The day and time are all rituals and depends on the local customs and also for the convenience of selecting a period etc.. Some people here prefer to fast completely or partially on  new moon days.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 06, 2019, 05:30:36 AM
peace,

If shahr = the whole lunar cycle, then it already have number of days in it, i.e. ~29.5 days.
But the Qur’an says fast ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’(2:184), and according to Qur’an, the term ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ is used for ‘10 days’ (in 2:203, Qur’an mentions ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ for Hajj days, and from 2:189 & 196 Hajj days are 10.
So fast for ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ = fast for 10 days.

And as I understood, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

Note bold part,
9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.msg421590#msg421590 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.msg421590#msg421590)

1)So the 4 full moons are for Hajj, since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose).
2) Summer can’t be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat, (there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217).
[if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (summer) would be al shahr al haram]
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 06, 2019, 01:04:37 PM
....فمن so who شهد shahida/witness منكم among you الشهر l-shahra/the moon cycle فلىصمه falyaṣum'hu/so should he/said person abstain/fast it.....

Brother Noon how to abstain/fast AL-Shahra?

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 06, 2019, 08:48:01 PM
1)So the 4 full moons are for Hajj, since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose).
For example 2:184&185 says special cases/situations(illness, travel) for postponing the sawm in Ramadan,but it does not mentions Hajj/sawm in Hajj as a condition/situation.

Quote
(there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217).
Exception is there (2:194,179)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: imrankhawaja on May 06, 2019, 11:51:08 PM
2:187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray yourselves so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. You may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His signs clear to the people that they may be righteous

RED now its lawfull in night to approach women.. (days of soum)
GREEN it was clear before the current law people use to sexually approach their women due to the human nature of sex hunger .
BLUE its bit tricky  eat and drink(consume) ?  either its general food or sex hunger in both cases do it untill the changing of sky colors..
BROWN complete the fast untill night ( do not sexually approach them untill night)
NAVY even when you are (akifoon in masjid) do not appraoch your women.. (this point need discussion)

all that time the only restriction in all of the verse is to stop doing sex in day light hours ..

now lets see what is eat and drink either its food or just a idiomatic term used for enjoyment..

let say وكلوا واشربوا = consume/enjoy/get satisfied fully it can be anything .. food , sex, travelling, drinking wine, riding horse, living in posh houses, cloths wearing...

so you can enjoy fully anything of it and idiomatically we use this word ..

according to the context the consumption is regarding sex , so before the dawn do it like 3 4 or 5 times so that you get fully satisfied with sex hunger so finish that sex hunger until the night...  :rotfl: :brickwall: (sorry guys for detailing it according to my own lens)

now sometimes the answer of your problematic points lies with in next verses...  we are hunting our BLUE point right now

lets put it on test and see what next verse is saying...

2:188 And do not تاكلوا eat your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may eat a part of the money of other people sinfully while you know!

the exact same root is used there for eating or consuming or enjoying or taking .... تاكلوا

so with respect to that the blue point is clear now.. with cross referencing of quran..

there are some parts of world where  sunlight hours are long like hell its illogical to be hungrey for about 20 hours
if you are hungry your mood will get off , then you start doing trouble.
if you are hungry you try to dishonest with your duties at work.
if you are hungey its difficult to do work that required continious energy like labour work in hot desert..
lot more things..

NOTE (all these are my personal understandings everybody need to verify it as per 17:36)

i just highlight the point what i have with fasting such a long hours
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Cerberus on May 07, 2019, 05:42:04 AM
Quote
if you are hungry your mood will get off , then you start doing trouble.
if you are hungry you try to dishonest with your duties at work.

Yes it's true that this is the effect. It's like a junkie. A slave.

No truly good person is good because they're well fed, sexually and/or emotionally fulfilled and the weather is great.Take away those things and you have the real person.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: imrankhawaja on May 07, 2019, 09:38:16 AM
Yes it's true that this is the effect. It's like a junkie. A slave.

No truly good person is good because they're well fed, sexually and/or emotionally fulfilled and the weather is great.Take away those things and you have the real person.

And Also we can see a true nature of person when hez in mood  :rotfl: jk

I personally see Good people behaving weird when they are waiting for their food its first started when kids start shouting at their mom when food is delayed or husbands shouts at wives if food is non-tasty/undelicious.

Its an old habbit of human beings lol
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 09, 2019, 12:27:58 AM
peace,

For those (e.g. those in polar regions) who find it difficult to fast(or for doing any other forms of worship), these verses may have the answer,
[4:97-100]
That those the angels make them die, unjust (to) themselves, they said: "In what you were/have been? "They said: "We were weakened in the Earth/land." They said: "Was not God's Earth/land wide/spacious so you emigrate in it?" So those, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, and it was a bad/evil end/destination.
   
Except the weakened from the men, and the women, and the children, they are not able (of a) solution (means) and nor they be guided a way/path.

So those, may be God that He forgives/pardons on them, and God is often forgiving, (a) forgiver.

And who emigrates in God's sake, he finds in the earth an escape, and a wealth/an abundance, and who gets out from his house emigrating to God and His messenger, then the death overtakes him, so his reward had fallen/been placed  on God, and God is a forgiver, merciful.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 09, 2019, 03:33:34 PM
peace,

For those (e.g. those in polar regions) who find it difficult to fast(or for doing any other forms of worship), these verses may have the answer,
[4:97-100]
That those the angels make them die, unjust (to) themselves, they said: "In what you were/have been? "They said: "We were weakened in the Earth/land." They said: "Was not God's Earth/land wide/spacious so you emigrate in it?" So those, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, and it was a bad/evil end/destination.
   
Except the weakened from the men, and the women, and the children, they are not able (of a) solution (means) and nor they be guided a way/path.

So those, may be God that He forgives/pardons on them, and God is often forgiving, (a) forgiver.

And who emigrates in God's sake, he finds in the earth an escape, and a wealth/an abundance, and who gets out from his house emigrating to God and His messenger, then the death overtakes him, so his reward had fallen/been placed  on God, and God is a forgiver, merciful.

So are you saying that God forgot to mention any exclusions while ordering fasting (if saum = fasting) and left it for us to find out how to fulfill the command in polar regions.

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Wakas on May 10, 2019, 03:00:04 AM
sawm is only applicable to those who witness the shahr (as per 2:185)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 10, 2019, 09:00:25 AM
sawm is only applicable to those who witness the shahr (as per 2:185)

What does it mean.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: imrankhawaja on May 10, 2019, 09:49:34 AM
perhaps its not applicable to those who didnt qualify the criteria due to whatever reason..

example people in ISS (international space station).

funny POINT to ponder,  its really impossible to do SEX in space station due to gravity lmao.... :rotfl:
and if you go for fasting from FOOD & DRINK then its only like one hour fast and more than 15 fasts in a day.

people in polar regions where they can have (long nights/permanent dark) lasting for months. so they are chilling there..

these type of situations i guess thats why author of QURAN say whoever witness the shahr-e-ramadhan.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 10, 2019, 02:53:24 PM
perhaps its not applicable to those who didnt qualify the criteria due to whatever reason..

example people in ISS (international space station).

funny POINT to ponder,  its really impossible to do SEX in space station due to gravity lmao.... :rotfl:
and if you go for fasting from FOOD & DRINK then its only like one hour fast and more than 15 fasts in a day.

people in polar regions where they can have (long nights/permanent dark) lasting for months. so they are chilling there..

these type of situations i guess thats why author of QURAN say whoever witness the shahr-e-ramadhan.


شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلْقُرْءَانُ

The month of Ramadan is the month during which the Qur?ān was compositely sent (to the chosen sincere allegiant Muhammad on appointing-assigning him the responsibility of the final Universal Messenger-Spokesperson) ?

هُدٙى لِّلنَّاسِ

It (Qur?ān) serves as guidance for the Mankind ?

وَبَيِّنَٟتٛ مِّنَ ٱلْـهُـدَىٰ وَٱلْفُرْقَانِۚ

And distinctly self explanatory verbal passages were gradually communicated from the miscellany of Al-Huda'a: the Guide (Qur?ān) and Al-Furqau'n: the Criterion; the Separator of right from wrong, fact from falsity-conjecture.

فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُـمُ ٱلشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُـمْهُۖ

Therefore, if he who reaching adulthood among you was present at home in this month, thereat, he should observe it by fasting.


وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضٙا أَوْ عَلَـىٰ سَفَرٛ

And if anyone has been suffering from sickness, or was embarking on a journey ?

فَعِدَّةٚ مِّنْ أَيَّامٛ أُخَرَۗ

Thereby (he may adjourn fasting) the count be accomplished during the days of another-later month.

يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِكُـمُ ٱلْيُسْـرَ

Allah the Exalted intends easiness for you people ?

وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُـمُ ٱلْعُسْـرَ

And He the Exalted never intends difficulty-awkwardness for you ?

وَلِتُكْمِلُوا۟ ٱلْعِدَّةَ

And its purpose is that you might complete the count of fasting ?

وَلِتُكَـبِّـرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ عَلَـىٰ مَا هَدَىٰكُـمْ

And that you might proclaim and praise the Sublime grandeur of Allah the Mightiest upon your getting aright guided (by adhering to Qur?ān) ?

وَلَعَلَّـكُـمْ تَشْكُرُونَ .2:185١٨٥

And so that you people might keep expressing gratitude. [2:185]

Both the sentences are conditional --- the opposite of a person on journey is the person who is at home.

Interestingly the basic perception of Root:  ص و م

bn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)
الصاد والواو والميم أصلٌ يدلُّ على إِمساكٍ وركودٍ في مكان. من ذلك صَوم الصَّائم

That it leads to the perception of abstinence, and stasis - stagnancy at home.

(لسان العرب)
الصَّوْمُ: تَرْكُ الطعامِ والشَّرابِ والنِّكاحِ والكلامِ

Fasting is the act and state of abstinence of activity relating to food intake and genitalia and speech.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 13, 2019, 02:54:48 PM
Salaam Brother Mazhar


فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُـمُ ٱلشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُـمْهُۖ

Therefore, if he who reaching adulthood among you was present at home in this month, thereat, he should observe it by fasting.

فَمَن so who
 شَهِدَ witnessed
 مِنكُـمُ among you
 ٱلشَّهْرَ the month
 فَلْيَصُـمْهُۖ then let him fast it


يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِكُـمُ ٱلْيُسْـرَ

Allah the Exalted intends easiness for you people ?

وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُـمُ ٱلْعُسْـرَ

And He the Exalted never intends difficulty-awkwardness for you ?

It is "bi kum" in the verse which means "with you".
It is not "la kum" in the verse which would mean "for you".



وَلِتُكَـبِّـرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ عَلَـىٰ مَا هَدَىٰكُـمْ

And that you might proclaim and praise the Sublime grandeur of Allah the Mightiest upon your getting aright guided (by adhering to Qur?ān) ?

How one can proclaim and praise the Sublime grandeur of Allah the Mightiest upon your getting aright guided by not eating, drinking or having sex?


وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضٙا أَوْ عَلَـىٰ سَفَرٛ



وَلَعَلَّـكُـمْ تَشْكُرُونَ .2:185١٨٥

And so that you people might keep expressing gratitude. [2:185]

Both the sentences are conditional --- the opposite of a person on journey is the person who is at home.

And using your logic what is the opposite of "sick" in the verse?


Interestingly the basic perception of Root:  ص و م

bn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)
الصاد والواو والميم أصلٌ يدلُّ على إِمساكٍ وركودٍ في مكان. من ذلك صَوم الصَّائم

That it leads to the perception of abstinence, and stasis - stagnancy at home.

(لسان العرب)
الصَّوْمُ: تَرْكُ الطعامِ والشَّرابِ والنِّكاحِ والكلامِ

Fasting is the act and state of abstinence of activity relating to food intake and genitalia and speech.

What does إِمساكٍ means as used in the Quran, for example

2:231 وَإِذَا طَلَّقۡتُمُ ٱلنِّسَآءَ فَبَلَغۡنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ أَوۡ سَرِّحُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ۬‌ۚ وَلَا تُمۡسِكُوهُنَّ ضِرَارً۬ا لِّتَعۡتَدُواْ‌ۚ .........

Or

7:170 وَٱلَّذِينَ يُمَسِّكُونَ بِٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ إِنَّا لَا نُضِيعُ أَجۡرَ ٱلۡمُصۡلِحِينَ

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Wakas on May 14, 2019, 06:46:44 AM
peace,


And as I understood, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

Note bold part,https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.msg421590#msg421590 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.msg421590#msg421590)

1)So the 4 full moons are for Hajj, since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose).

That's an interesting observation.

I think you may be onto something. I will think this over.

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: The Sardar on May 14, 2019, 07:07:16 AM
Salam/Peace everyone. I have found 3 videos about Ramadan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXvBSB7o_-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvuVsqqP_lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPjv5w4eVBg
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 14, 2019, 07:46:39 AM
Salaam Brother Mazhar

فَمَن so who
شَهِدَ witnessed
 مِنكُـمُ among you
 ٱلشَّهْرَ the month
 فَلْيَصُـمْهُۖ then let him fast it

It is "bi kum" in the verse which means "with you".
It is not "la kum" in the verse which would mean "for you".


How one can proclaim and praise the Sublime grandeur of Allah the Mightiest upon your getting aright guided by not eating, drinking or having sex?


And using your logic what is the opposite of "sick" in the verse?

What does إِمساكٍ means as used in the Quran, for example

2:231 وَإِذَا طَلَّقۡتُمُ ٱلنِّسَآءَ فَبَلَغۡنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ أَوۡ سَرِّحُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ۬‌ۚ وَلَا تُمۡسِكُوهُنَّ ضِرَارً۬ا لِّتَعۡتَدُواْ‌ۚ .........

Or

7:170 وَٱلَّذِينَ يُمَسِّكُونَ بِٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ إِنَّا لَا نُضِيعُ أَجۡرَ ٱلۡمُصۡلِحِينَ

witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms:   see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"

But the second consonant has Kasra, the verb is from inf. n. شُهُودٌ,

Lane's Lexicon
He was, or became, present at it, or in it; (S, A, Mgh, L, Msb, * K;) namely, a place, (Mgh,) or an assembly. (Msb.) Hence the saying, (Msb,) فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ, in the Kur [ii. 181], Therefore whosoever of you shall be present in the month, and stationary, not journeying, he shall fast therein (Mgh, Msb) as long as he shall remain present and stationary:
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 15, 2019, 12:01:09 AM
witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms:   see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"

But the second consonant has Kasra, the verb is from inf. n. شُهُودٌ,

Lane's Lexicon
He was, or became, present at it, or in it; (S, A, Mgh, L, Msb, * K;) namely, a place, (Mgh,) or an assembly. (Msb.) Hence the saying, (Msb,) فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ, in the Kur [ii. 181], Therefore whosoever of you shall be present in the month, and stationary, not journeying, he shall fast therein (Mgh, Msb) as long as he shall remain present and stationary:

Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 15, 2019, 04:38:00 AM
Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.

It is naive to call that a translation,. Translation does not mean meanings of individual words.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 15, 2019, 04:57:40 AM
Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.

It is the first and basic meanings:

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:
(مقاييس اللغة)
الشِّينُ وَالْهَاءُ وَالدَّالُ أَصْلٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى حُضُورٍ وَعِلْمٍ وَإِعْلَامٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الشَّهَادَةُ،

That it leads to the perception of presence, witnessing and knowledge and its notifying, telling. And it signifies evidence, eye witness. testimony.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 15, 2019, 09:41:16 PM
It is naive to call that a translation,. Translation does not mean meanings of individual words.

I think translation is meaning of words. Are you mixing translation with interpretation.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Novice on May 15, 2019, 09:44:23 PM
It is the first and basic meanings:

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:
(مقاييس اللغة)
الشِّينُ وَالْهَاءُ وَالدَّالُ أَصْلٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى حُضُورٍ وَعِلْمٍ وَإِعْلَامٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الشَّهَادَةُ،

That it leads to the perception of presence, witnessing and knowledge and its notifying, telling. And it signifies evidence, eye witness. testimony.

How does this basic meanings contradicts with "shahida"= He witnessed given in my translation?

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 16, 2019, 09:34:44 AM
I think translation is meaning of words. Are you mixing translation with interpretation.

Considering the meanings and purpose of translation we can say that all reading is in fact translation and interpretation. A native reading the text of his language is in fact transferring the meanings, perception and the message contained therein to his memory where it is written in a form different than the form of language he watched on paper. Mere memorization of the text is not translation but is transcription in the meanings of writing out or lodging an exact copy of something in memory. Storage of longer text in long term or procedural memory and its retrieval is perhaps best achieved through mechanism of rehearsal.

Since the source language Arabic is Semitic while target Language English is Germanic, the Metaphrase involving "word by word" and "line by line" translation would in fact be no translation because intent of the text will not be clearly perceivable.

Another concept that collocates with translation is interpretation. It is defined as transference of meaning of spoken and heard words in the language of second person. The difference between the two is of real time versus delayed. Interpreting occurs in real time. It happens in person. An interpreter transfers the meanings in both directions, on the spot, without any reference material. Interpreter is thus fluent in both the languages.

Translation is a delayed activity because it takes place long after a text is created. It gives the translator time to access resources, like lexicons, glossaries, grammar books, and these days Google to access any subject. Therefore, it is obviously an easier and less taxing task than the job of an interpreter.

The physical and sensory modalities of speech and writing are distinct. They are distinctly different as the physical processes of speaking and writing. Similarly the physical and sensory modalities of interpretation and translation are different. For interpretation, sound - voice is the medium and the organ used is ears while in translation the first medium is the vision through the organ of eyes.

In real world experience the end product of both is communication. Both aim at explanation or establishment of the meaning or significance of something stated orally or in writing. It is also the case when the speaker and listener, and author and the reader, have the same language. The listener and reader interprets the spoken and written words of his own language and saves as perception what he thought or comprehended the speaker or writer intended to convey him.

Except being one directional, the translation is in fact interpretation. For translation the first requirement is the skill for reading. Reading involves translating text into sounds or spoken words. And comprehension involves deriving meanings from those sounds.

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuranIntro.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuranIntro.htm)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mazhar on May 16, 2019, 09:37:29 AM
How does this basic meanings contradicts with "shahida"= He witnessed given in my translation?

witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms: see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Jafar on May 16, 2019, 02:05:24 PM
Peace,

so Ramadan's starting tomorrow right...

But some people say that the Qur'an doesn't teach to fast a whole month every year but rather, to fast a few day/s every month...

Youtuber Quran Centric talks about this...

What do you think?

The basic principle:
Ritual is for men and not men for ritual..

Fasting is a good exercise for better control.
Better control of what?
Of your emotion and urge.

As for the frequency and timing; there is no such thing as one size fits all.
For those who think that a month a year is more suitable for them then it's fine.
For those who think that a few days every week for the entire year is more suitable for them then it's also fine.

It's back to the individual, again the objective is about improving the ability to control the emotion and urge where it varies in accordance to individual and the situation of such individual.

Just like exercise.. you feel that you're overweight then exercise more...

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Iyyaka on May 16, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms: see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"
Yes "Witness" is a word with TWO mainly meanings. I just add for the second definition you gave the sense of "Confirm the truth, the value of (qqch.).." like in 12:26

Quran confirms these 2 meanings for the root of the word "Shahida". So now choose your definition?
1) See a "month" ?
2) Confirm the true of a month ?

------

2 further grammatical additions :

1) Translate "Siyam" in English by "To fast"in 2:185  is GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT because the verb "TO FAST" is an Intransitive verb (No object!). Indeed, in 2:185 we have "falyaṣum'hu" => PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

2) (2:185:4) "unzila" => V ? 3rd person masculine singular (form IV) passive perfect verb.
The passive form indicates that the month is not really important but "al-quran" is more important ! Grammatical rules :
- In the active voice, the subject does the action.
- On the contrary, to the passive voice, the subject undergoes action.


NB : For Mazhar, English words come also from french not only from germany ! ;)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Soittosondhani on May 20, 2019, 01:29:01 AM
Searching the root we find that 'Saom'  is derived from 'SMM'. "SMM' means 'deafness' and 'deaf and dumb', so Saom should mean observance/practice of deafness and silence. Its surprising how a derivative of SMM turned into 'fasting' in the long run!
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Cerberus on May 20, 2019, 02:25:22 AM
Searching the root we find that 'Saom'  is derived from 'SMM'. "SMM' means 'deafness' and 'deaf and dumb', so Saom should mean observance/practice of deafness and silence. Its surprising how a derivative of SMM turned into 'fasting' in the long run!

In reality I found that the moment you open your mouth (or use your keyboard) a lot of things happen within, how one's words can serve to fulfill own's ego and give a feeling of false existence. And this you can witness clearly if you're trying to maintain a true state of fast.

Same could be applied to your hearing. Listening to idle talk, getting carried away in entertainment etc....

But in reality it's all about emptying the senses so that you can hear and see better.

Quote
"You must fast!" said Confucius. " Do you know what I mean by fasting ? It's not easy, but easy ways do not come from God "

"Oh," said Yen Hui, " I'm used to fasting! At home we were poor. We went for months without wine or meat. That is fasting, is it not ?"

"Well, you can call it 'observing a fast' if you like," said Confucius "but it is not the fasting of the heart"

"Tell me," said Yen Hui, "what is fasting of the heart?"

Confucius replied:  "The goal of fasting is inner unity. This means hearing, but not with the ear; hearing, but not with the understanding; hearing with the spirit, with your whole being.  The hearing that is only in the ears is one thing.  The hearing of the understanding is another.  But the hearing of the spirit is not limited to any one faculty, to the ear, or to the mind.  Hence it demands the emptiness of all the faculties.  And when the faculties are empty, then the whole being listens. There is then a direct grasp of what is right there before you that can never be heard with the ear or understood with the mind.  Fasting of the heart empties the faculties, frees you from limitation and from preoccupation.  Fasting of the heart begets unity and freedom."

Note that in the same manner that this was reported from Confucius, a rather similar message was reported from Muhammad.

Quote
?Many people who fast get nothing from their fast except hunger and thirst..."

So yes I think you had some truth in what you managed to conclude from your roots words but that is obviously not all of it. And I quoted Confucius just to emphasize that it's a universal practice.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: mekaeel7 on May 20, 2019, 03:09:57 AM
It has been a very long time since I have replied or visited this site and I don't remember how to properly reply but Soittosondhani's post today served to buttress the position that I have understood from my reading of the Qur'an! The only two examples of fasting that I have discerned are the fast of Mariam, the mother of Isa and the fast of Zakharia, both which consisted of  NOT talking! As has been mentioned in the Qur'an, fasting has been prescribed for us as it was prescribed for those before us, then it only makes sense to observe the fast as described in the Qur'an by those before us! It is my thinking that somewhere along the line, Muslims in imitation of and influence of the Judeo-christian practices, adopted their view about the matter but per the example of Mariam, she observed silence in her vow to fast for Al Rahman!
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 20, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
peace,

(there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217, exception -2:194,179).

Or think in this way:
When there is no compulsion in religion(2:256), WHY God commands to kill/fight the polytheists after the sacred full moons/months have passed?

9:5
"So when the sacred full moons/months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point..."


peace,

For those (e.g. those in polar regions) who find it difficult to fast(or for doing any other forms of worship), these verses may have the answer,
[4:97-100]
That those the angels make them die, unjust (to) themselves, they said: "In what you were/have been? "They said: "We were weakened in the Earth/land." They said: "Was not God's Earth/land wide/spacious so you emigrate in it?" So those, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, and it was a bad/evil end/destination.
   
Except the weakened from the men, and the women, and the children, they are not able (of a) solution (means) and nor they be guided a way/path.

So those, may be God that He forgives/pardons on them, and God is often forgiving, (a) forgiver.

And who emigrates in God's sake, he finds in the earth an escape, and a wealth/an abundance, and who gets out from his house emigrating to God and His messenger, then the death overtakes him, so his reward had fallen/been placed  on God, and God is a forgiver, merciful.
So are you saying that God forgot to mention any exclusions while ordering fasting (if saum = fasting) and left it for us to find out how to fulfill the command in polar regions.

For example, suppose one born in an atheist family, as he attains maturity, realizing the truth and comes to the truth. Will he then continue what he followed before(what his atheist parents taught him)?
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 20, 2019, 09:21:13 AM
The only two examples of fasting that I have discerned are the fast of Mariam, the mother of Isa and the fast of Zakharia, both which consisted of  NOT talking! As has been mentioned in the Qur'an, fasting has been prescribed for us as it was prescribed for those before us, then it only makes sense to observe the fast as described in the Qur'an by those before us!
This is really striking...

So, how it would be if No talking + No drinking + No eating?
Or only Not talking?

-God is The Merciful-
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Wakas on May 20, 2019, 12:02:38 PM
Is the word siyam/sawm used in Quran for Zakariya?
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 12:13:28 PM
Is the word siyam/sawm used in Quran for Zakariya?
I think Siyam/Sawm is a volunteer act from the quran perspective..that's why God don't use the word Sawm for Zakariya because Zakariya had a correction from God for not having faith. The difference is that in the Bible Zakariya canno't speak during a long time (8 days after the baby came into this world) while it is only 3 days in the quran.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Wakas on May 20, 2019, 01:20:10 PM
I think Siyam/Sawm is a volunteer act from the quran perspective..

Upon the mumineen I don't think its voluntary.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=183#(2:183:1)

...prescribed/decreed upon you...


Also discussed here, due to use of fidya:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-sawm-fasting.html
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Iyyaka on May 20, 2019, 02:00:27 PM
Upon the mumineen I don't think its voluntary.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=183#(2:183:1)

...prescribed/decreed upon you...


Also discussed here, due to use of fidya:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-sawm-fasting.html
Your translation 3 is correct  :) so it is an alternative so you have the choice..Again in the story of Zacharie no word sawn is evoked.
option 3 :
 "3) "...and upon those who are capable of it* (i.e. sawm) a ransom feeding a poor person..."
*with the implication being they choose not to.
The only problem for me here is that god don't talk about sawm but Siyam. Not the same.

Some comments for the word Kataba :
The verb kataba here doesn't mean to prescribe in the sense that Islam-religion understands it: that is to say, an obligation, but retains its original meaning: to recommend, to invite to..
But ok for kitab = prescription but prescription is not really necessarily an obligation. Lexically, the kataba root originally means to write, hence for kitab written, book, missive. It is in this context that the verb kataba means, by extension, to prescribe, that is, to put in writing, and that kitab is therefore valid for prescription: what has been written. Moreover, the term to prescribe derives from the Latin praescribere is formed of pre (before) and scribere (to write), from where the sense to write in head, to put in title, to put forward. Also, by definition, any prescription / kitab is not mandatory, it is only a written recommendation. It is the same in English where, for example, the medical prescription is non-binding. It is therefore only under the influence of the legal exegesis proper to the objectives of Islam that the meaning of divine obligation has been superimposed on the term kitab.

So we have the Following structure in 2 parts :
(1) ayats 2:183-184 => General recommendation to make "SIYAM" with a ransom/redemption if u don't want and you have the capability to do it but it is strongly recommended...
(2) ayats 2:185-187 => Ok now you have choosen to do "SIYAM" so the word "fidya" doesn't appears in this part and god details the contents of the siyam (quran etc.)

Peace
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 21, 2019, 02:20:00 AM
Took in wrong sense

Yes, both(2:187 & 19:26) are about sawm, but the problem is that the sawm of Maryam(19:26) does not mentions anything which is in 2:187 ( i.e. drinking, eating & sexual acts), then how it can be the same? Likewise, sawm in 2:187 does not mentions anything which is in Maryam's sawm. Therefore I do not think about a connection between them.
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: herbman on May 22, 2019, 04:10:51 AM
about Zakariah from Was Zakariah the first man doing Sawm?

Dear all, Peace , Salam

To make it clear I used here the term sawm= to abstain, and more specifically abstention of talk as per 19:26 and abstain of sexual relation as per 2:187.

In the "Great Reading" (Al quran) Mary is mentioned as doing sawm of talk, this in in verse 19:26:

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا ۖ فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنْسِيًّا

Looking in the book about similar cases I found Zakarya in 3:41, 19:10
3:41
He said: "O my Lord! Give me a sign!" "Thy Sign" was the answer "shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning."

19:10
(Zakariya) said "O my Lord! Give me a Sign." "Thy Sign", was the answer "shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."

In 19:10 Zakarya ask for a sign, and the answer is you shall not speak during 3 nights, and in 3:41 for 3 days, is this a SAWM?

Well if we take into account, "angels" come down to earth during "laylat al qadr" as per 97:4, we can assume, the event occurred during the night and more specifically during "laylat al qadr"!

My conclusion is Zakarya event was during laylat al qadr,  so during shahru ramadan (full moon), and he was "forced" not to speak, by definition of sawm given in 19:26 (with Mary).

Maybe one of the difference between Zakarya and Mary, is Mary could still speak but Zakarya was "forced" to be muted for 3 consecutive days and nights, this is important to understand 2:187!
So in "my" logic, the tradition came from Zakarya.

- So Zakarya was "praying" (doing salat) in the temple when came the "angels" to him, telling him a good news, you will have a child
- Zakarya answer after being astonished and maybe skeptical  :hypno: was "GIVE ME A SIGN"
- Allah answer is easy : "Thy Sign", was the answer "shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."

THIS BRING US TO 2:187

Permitted to you on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments. And ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah hath ordained for you and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.


1- Introduction (what are we talking about):
Permitted to you on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives
2-Explanation
They are your garments. And ye are their garments
3-Back ground (what was the situation before see 19:10)
Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you;
4-Permission given- new resolution from now on, eat and drink is another way to say "enjoy"
so now associate with them, and seek what Allah hath ordained for you and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread;
5-Conclusion and set the interdiction to not approach wives while doing saum
then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.

The abstention during night was initiated during ZAKARYA time and is now "abrogated" with 2:187.
So at least now we know why we have to do sawm during shahru ramadan, in commemoration of Zakarya event.

Peace
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: herbman on May 22, 2019, 04:12:50 AM
and my view regarding SAWM

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608637.0

Peace
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2019, 08:08:34 AM
its TRUE & LOGICAL to solve the FIRST step before we advance to 2nd & 3rd STEP ...

one thing for sure the lunar calendar started by the figure ("omar" / ==>bukhari) is clearly in error due to the seasons switching from hot to cold... 

it also contradict the YEAR whats in the sight of QURAN is based on 12 months..
becoz after 3 consecutive years there is a full gap of 29-30 days what produce another month..

and then the amount of FASTING days from 3-10 or full month will come in third STEP.
in simple words its an (absolute/definite/confirmed) historical ERROR.

AND the FIRST step to see what is FAST and what WAS the FAST before us ?

my current understanding of first STEP is here..

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.msg424959#msg424959 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.msg424959#msg424959)
Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: imrankhawaja on May 22, 2019, 08:16:41 AM
4-Permission given- new resolution from now on, eat and drink is another way to say "enjoy"

TRUE we can enjoy anything in general including (sex,food,drink,properties,money) ===> all these things are directly referenced from QURAN itself..

Title: Re: How do you understand fasting
Post by: Mohammed. on May 25, 2019, 02:42:11 AM
peace,

Feeding the poor (fidya) may be another option in such cases?(See reply #33 or #11)
And from 5:89, 3 sawm is equivalent to feeding 10 poor persons.

Regarding yuteeqoona (2:184)

Almost similar form of the root comes in 3:180,

“And let not those who are stingy/miserly with what God gave them from His grace/blessing think/suppose it is good/better for them, but it is bad/evil for them, they will be encircled/surrounded/burdened (with) what they were stingy/miser with it (on) the Resurrection Day…”

Therefore I consider the meaning for yuteeqoona as ‘to be able to do but find extremely hard and difficult to bear’ i.e. a kind of burden.