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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Iyyaka on March 31, 2019, 09:03:34 AM

Title: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on March 31, 2019, 09:03:34 AM
Hello everyone,

I am coming to share with you a video of a French author about the so-called sacrifice of Abraham and his son Ishmael in the Koran.
For French-speaking here is the link of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD_gP9bAQb4&t=580s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD_gP9bAQb4&t=580s)
For the English-speaking below a synthesis of the arguments presented by the author to provide a new translation and vision of this Koranic passage .

Faced with a problem of understanding, the human being naturally has the inclination to compare with something familiar to him or similar to him in his cultural experience. This fact can be a trap as i hope (we the help of God) the present example will demonstrate you: Indeed the traditional exegesis have understood, in this koranic passage, only a reformulation of the story of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham in the Bible; with the only difference is about the replacement of Isaac by Ishmael.
But the meditation in detail of this Koranic passage lead us on a whole other level of sense.
I let you discover it...

But before starting I want to emphasize my disagreement with the author on 1 point: when he presents the Bayt as the Kaaba.
Otherwise the whole of the argument is remarkable and demonstrates how much the meditation work can be done with humility and with full confidence in the text.

------ Improved traditional translation with red question marks --------------

[37: 100] Lord, grant me some virtuous ".
[37: 101] We gave him the good news of a forebearing son.
[37: 102] When he was old enough to go with him,
He says, "O my son, I see myself in my sleep sacrificing you.
See what you think about it.
He said, "O my father, Do what is ordained to you.
You will find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.
[37: 103] When both of them were submissive, and he was laid by his forehead,
[37: 104] We called him, "O Abraham!
[37: 105] You have faith in the vision. "
This is how We reward the doers of good.
[37: 106] This was a clear test.
[37: 107] We redeemed him from a considerable sacrifice.
[37: 108] We have perpetuated his memory in posterity.
[37: 109] Peace over Abraham.
[37: 110] Thus We reward the doers of good.
[37: 111] He was of Our believing servants.
[37: 112] We gave him Isaac, a prophet among the righteous.

------- Arguments of the author is articulated around 4 main axes ------------

          1) The argument from "our healthy human nature" (Arabic:fitra)

- How could God, who calls himself "al rahman al rahim", ask Abraham to slaughter his own son? In the Qur'an only the devil can whisper such ineptitude (Cf. Surah 114)

- How Abraham, (who is known to question everything / After having trouble to have sons he asked God to make them as virtuous), does not he question at least God about this big and horrible sacrifice and runs it  immediately after his son gave him his assent ?


          2) The linguistic argumentation

- The word "a'theem" ​​[37: 107] which means "immense, commensurable, incommensurable" can not refer to an animal; the word "sheep" does not appear here in the text.

- The word "adhba uka" [37: 102] = "Sacrifice" can be used literally as well as figuratively. We will see later what direction to give it (figurative meaning = "To devote oneself to a cause for God ...").
    o NB: Wakas has already correctly made this remark in the following post: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.msg273059#msg273059 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.msg273059#msg273059)

- The word "Talla" [37: 103]: a "hapax" in the Koran can demonstrates the vigilance to have with classical Arabic dictionaries (There are sometimes lexical entries required by the traditionnal exegesis)

    o Dictionary: This word has the meaning of "something to raise"
              => Look at "Hans wehr" dictionary : http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=129,ll=347,ls=5,la=438,sg=203,ha=78,br=160,pr=31,vi=90,mgf=137,mr=103,mn=136,aan=94,kz=213,uqq=44,ulq=440,uqa=67,uqw=203,umr=166,ums=121,umj=96,bdw=151,amr=96,asb=94,auh=262,dhq=77,mht=77,msb=37,tla=33,amj=84,ens=982,mis=212 (http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=129,ll=347,ls=5,la=438,sg=203,ha=78,br=160,pr=31,vi=90,mgf=137,mr=103,mn=136,aan=94,kz=213,uqq=44,ulq=440,uqa=67,uqw=203,umr=166,ums=121,umj=96,bdw=151,amr=96,asb=94,auh=262,dhq=77,mht=77,msb=37,tla=33,amj=84,ens=982,mis=212)).
So, Talla = Heap or tall = hill ?

    o Hebrew language (sister language): this same root refers to the idea of ​​hill (Ex -> Tel Haviv)

    o Ayats-letters (my personal contribution and not from the author of the video): Root Word - Ta-Lam-Lam:
 "Ta" = sign, mark, visible...
 "Lam" = Liaison
 "Lam" = Liaison
             ? Abstract sense = "link on link up to Something is visible/distinc with an idea of high".

- The word "sabirin" [37: 102] = "enduring, patient, persevering" applies only for something long lasting that takes place in time

- The word "Mu'sinina" = "Beneficial/Good doers" [37: 105] = What is the relation about Killing his son? Does Beneficial means "Not to execute an order of God"?
The word "Beneficial" expresses the idea that something has been done well (real act) ! as shown by the use of the word.


          3) The argument from all the structure of the Surah 37 "those who line up"

- Link the first verses to the penultimate [37: 181] "almursaleen" = "the envoys" to understand who refers to "as-saffat" and discover the theme of the surah.   

    o Definition: God speaks of the envoys who are on the same line, who are aligned on the same thing, who sacrifices himself entirely for the cause of god and thus ensures the transmission of the divine reminder as in a relay race (Ex -> image athletics).

- Detailed commentary of the content of the surah

          o From the sign [37: 6] to the sign [37: 74] = God describes all those who rejected this unique program and those who adopted it ("La ilaha illa allah")

          o From the sign [37: 75] to the sign [37: 82] = The sacrifice of Noah
         => Watarakna 'alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 78]

          o From the sign [37: 83] to the sign [37: 113] = The sacrifice of Abraham and his sons and especially Ishmael because Issac is mentioned AFTER the story of Abraham and his son
         => Watarakna alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 108]

          o From the sign [37: 114] to the sign [37: 122] = The sacrifice of Moses and Aaron
          => Watarakna 'alayhima fee al-akhireena [37: 119]

          o From the sign [37: 123] to the sign [37: 132] = The sacrifice of Elijah
         =>  Watarakna 'alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 129]

          o From the sign [37: 133] to the sign [37: 180] = The sacrifice of Lot - Jonah - All sent


           4) The Koranic intratextual argumentation (Arabic:Tartil)

    - The continuation of this surah is found in sura 2 "Baqarah" (The heifer) in [2: 124 ... 2: 127] => God clarifies the purpose of the sacrifice of Abraham and Ishmael (The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)

2:124 And Abraham was tested by words from His Lord, which he fulfilled. He said: "I will make you a leader for the people." He said: "And also from my progeny?" He said: "My pledge will not encompass the wicked."
2:125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
2:126 And Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said: "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!"
2:127 And as Abraham raised from the Sanctuary its foundations, along with Ishmael: "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2:128 "Our Lord, and let us submit to You and from our progeny a nation submitting to You, and show us our rites, and forgive us; You are the Forgiver, the Merciful."


------ New translation (leads by the meaning) taking into account these arguments from the Quran alone ------

[37: 100] Master, give me by grace (from offspring) among the upright ".
[37: 101] We gave him a shrewd boy.
[37: 102] When he was old enough to actively help his father,
He said: "O my son, I had a vision in my dream: I was consecrating you (to a great cause).
Take the time to think and tell me how you see this vision.
He said, "O my father, do what is ordained to you.
You will find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.
[37: 103] When both had done what was necessary, and the (Bayt) was raised at the level of the forehead,
[37: 104] We called him, "O Abraham!
[37: 105] You have realized the vision well.
This is how We reward the excellent ones.
          [37:106] This was an explicit test.
[37: 107] We rewarded him with a sacrifice beyond measure
[37: 108] By perpetuated it (sacrifice) to the last.


May this presentation be beneficial to you and may God bless you with benefits

Peace be upon you
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on March 31, 2019, 11:44:58 AM
1. Father is repetitively watching a dream doing same act that suggests he is going to sacrifice his son.
2. He did not execute his dream. Were he willing to do it, he could have done it on first watch even without bringing into the notice of his son.
3. Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.
4. He places it before his son to know his perception.
5. The son interprets it as Command of Allah the Exalted and expresses it in such manner indicating that the Father also had arrived to same conclusion.
6. After this consensus, at that point in time, فَلَمَّا أَسْلَمَا  when they both had at their own willingly agreed-accepted it as command of Allah the Exalted. Particle Fa is a conjunction indicating cause and effect. Verb is Perfect; Third person; dual; masculine; [Form-IV], [الف] Subject pronoun, in nominative state; مصدر اسْلاَمٌ Verbal Noun. For correctly perceiving text about episodes in any language, care needs to be taken for time and space indicated therein.
7. It is important to note that the son did not himself lie down but father laid him وَتَلَّهُ لِلْجَبِينِ down in the manner as vertebrates are sacrificed.
8. That was the point in time that he hears an emergency call aimed at immediately stopping him from further action.
9. Allah the Exalted tells him that he has affirmed, proven it to be exactly what he had seen in dream.

The intention of command through repetitive dreams is also indicated that it was just a manifest trial; and trial as we know is for purposes of exposure of one's sincerity, and for objects to determine their purity percentage. Actual Slaughter of son was not intended as disclosed by Allah the Exalted.

وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيم

And Our Majesty compensated him by sacrifice of a male mammal, characteristically great in bone: not juvenile but adult?

I do not think that an animal meant for sacrifice has any thing do with what we perceive by the word great. Its primary signification is a state when someone has become great in bone [not juvenile but adult].

It is a long tradition that only adult male mammals are sacrificed as was done by Ibrahim alaihissalm. It also helps balance the population of mammals since extra males are but a problem and nuisance for female population.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on March 31, 2019, 12:22:51 PM
You quote me Bro the traditionnal view that i know by heart.

Please try to re-read this quranic passage with the eyes and the heart of a new born...and look at carefully the signs from allah in the quran.

At least make attention of these 3 words (from corpus.quran.com) => It indicates something is ACHIEVED.

1)

(37:105:2)
ṣaddaqta
you have fulfilled

2)

(37:102:2)
balagha
he reached

(37:102:3)
maʿahu
with him

l-saʿya
the (age of) working/make efforts with him

=> Noun
(2:260:34) saʿyan
(in) haste
ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا
(17:19:6) saʿyahā
the effort
وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(17:19:11) saʿyuhum
their effort
فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(18:104:3) saʿyuhum
their effort
الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
(21:94:9) lisaʿyihi
[of] his effort
فَمَنْ يَعْمَلْ مِنَ الصَّالِحَاتِ وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَلَا كُفْرَانَ لِسَعْيِهِ
(37:102:4) l-saʿya
the (age of) working with him
فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ
(53:40:2) saʿyahu
his striving
وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَىٰ
(76:22:7) saʿyukum
your effort
إِنَّ هَٰذَا كَانَ لَكُمْ جَزَاءً وَكَانَ سَعْيُكُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(88:9:1) lisaʿyihā
With their effort
لِسَعْيِهَا رَاضِيَةٌ
(92:4:2) saʿyakum
your efforts
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّىٰ

3)
(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna
the good-doers.

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on March 31, 2019, 12:56:50 PM
You quote me Bro the traditionnal view that i know by heart.

Please try to re-read this quranic passage with the eyes and the heart of a new born...and look at carefully the signs from allah in the quran.

At least make attention of these 3 words (from corpus.quran.com) => It indicates something is ACHIEVED.

1)

(37:105:2)
ṣaddaqta
you have fulfilled

2)

(37:102:2)
balagha
he reached

(37:102:3)
maʿahu
with him

l-saʿya
the (age of) working/make efforts with him

=> Noun
(2:260:34) saʿyan
(in) haste
ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا
(17:19:6) saʿyahā
the effort
وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(17:19:11) saʿyuhum
their effort
فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(18:104:3) saʿyuhum
their effort
الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
(21:94:9) lisaʿyihi
[of] his effort
فَمَنْ يَعْمَلْ مِنَ الصَّالِحَاتِ وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَلَا كُفْرَانَ لِسَعْيِهِ
(37:102:4) l-saʿya
the (age of) working with him
فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ
(53:40:2) saʿyahu
his striving
وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَىٰ
(76:22:7) saʿyukum
your effort
إِنَّ هَٰذَا كَانَ لَكُمْ جَزَاءً وَكَانَ سَعْيُكُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(88:9:1) lisaʿyihā
With their effort
لِسَعْيِهَا رَاضِيَةٌ
(92:4:2) saʿyakum
your efforts
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّىٰ

3)
(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna
the good-doers.

Peace

I loudly discard all traditional and so called modernist translations. I study the original text strictly following academic rules.

He was told that whatever you used to see in the dreams you have already done it. He did not see having slaughtered his son. 
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Novice on March 31, 2019, 11:14:08 PM
I loudly discard all traditional and so called modernist translations. I study the original text strictly following academic rules.

He was told that whatever you used to see in the dreams you have already done it. He did not see having slaughtered his son.

Lets see how valid is your loud claim.

Translation from your website for 37:102

فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ ٱلسَّعۡىَ قَالَ يَـٰبُنَىَّ إِنِّىٓ أَرَىٰ فِى ٱلۡمَنَامِ أَنِّىٓ أَذۡبَحُكَ فَٱنظُرۡ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ‌ۚ قَالَ يَـٰٓأَبَتِ ٱفۡعَلۡ مَا تُؤۡمَرُ‌ۖ سَتَجِدُنِىٓ إِن شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مِنَ ٱلصَّـٰبِرِينَ

"O My dear child, it is a fact that I keep seeing during sleep that I am about to slaughter you. Therefore, you look into it as to what you perceive about this phenomenon?"

There is no "about to" in Arabic text. Your claim to discard all traditional and modernist translations is not supported by your inflated translations.

One can never get the message of Quran if he/she does not approach it with a clean slate. Pre-conceived concepts will pollute the message.

56:79 لَّا يَمَسُّهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡمُطَهَّرُونَ

Only people with clean slate can get this message.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 01:56:46 AM
Lets see how valid is your loud claim.

Translation from your website for 37:102

فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ ٱلسَّعۡىَ قَالَ يَـٰبُنَىَّ إِنِّىٓ أَرَىٰ فِى ٱلۡمَنَامِ أَنِّىٓ أَذۡبَحُكَ فَٱنظُرۡ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ‌ۚ قَالَ يَـٰٓأَبَتِ ٱفۡعَلۡ مَا تُؤۡمَرُ‌ۖ سَتَجِدُنِىٓ إِن شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مِنَ ٱلصَّـٰبِرِينَ

"O My dear child, it is a fact that I keep seeing during sleep that I am about to slaughter you. Therefore, you look into it as to what you perceive about this phenomenon?"

There is no "about to" in Arabic text. Your claim to discard all traditional and modernist translations is not supported by your inflated translations.

One can never get the message of Quran if he/she does not approach it with a clean slate. Pre-conceived concepts will pollute the message.

56:79 لَّا يَمَسُّهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡمُطَهَّرُونَ

Only people with clean slate can get this message.

There are different type of texts by structure and meanings. The author writes with the presumption that the reader is aware how a text is read and how meanings are drawn conveying the intended message.

If you are aware what type of a text is in Ayah 37:100-113, it will be easy for me to explain it to you what I have written.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Wakas on April 01, 2019, 07:02:44 AM
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607530.msg372870#msg372870
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609687.msg407775#msg407775
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609687.msg407824#msg407824
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Novice on April 01, 2019, 08:24:55 AM
There are different type of texts by structure and meanings. The author writes with the presumption that the reader is aware how a text is read and how meanings are drawn conveying the intended message.

If you are aware what type of a text is in Ayah 37:100-113, it will be easy for me to explain it to you what I have written.

The text in the Quraan is the word of Allah which He revealed for the guidance of human beings. He made it simple enough for us to get guidance from it.

54:17 وَلَقَدۡ يَسَّرۡنَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ لِلذِّكۡرِ فَهَلۡ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ۬

And we made the Quraan easy for reminder so is there one to take the reminder.

Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 08:40:48 AM
The text in the Quraan is the word of Allah which He revealed for the guidance of human beings. He made it simple enough for us to get guidance from it.

54:17 وَلَقَدۡ يَسَّرۡنَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ لِلذِّكۡرِ فَهَلۡ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ۬

And we made the Quraan easy for reminder so is there one to take the reminder.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/019.%20Maryam%20Siddiqa/19.97.gif)

The statement that Qur?ān is rendered facilitative has the value of a claim - to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true. Since the statement is about a book which is meant for reading and comprehending, the statement will be true if the book facilitates the reader both in its reading and comprehension. This is the extent of the statement. If the critical reader finds the statement true to its extent it will obviously highlight the value, quality and importance of the book whereby he will become sincere and reverent for it.

For making some thing easy, facilitator we need to do something. We must know how is it made easy only then it will become easily understandable.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 09:53:17 AM
Salam,

@ Wakas => thank you for the links (scattered on different topics). One of the main difference is about the translation of the verb "Talla" in 37:103 and coherence with the rest of the Quran.

@ Novice => Yes. It is an effort of everyone to be humble in front of God and his words.
 I have to struggle all the time with my mind and my ego
=> God confirms and sometimes corrected history into the bible. Infortunately, In many cases, we have assisted at a "biblisation" of the quran while the quran offer a new lecture of the bible. This example is for me the proof.

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 10:24:00 AM
Quranic Rethoric : A - B - X - B' - A'

[37: 100] Master, give me by grace (from offspring) among the upright ".
[37: 101] We gave him the glad tidings of a shrewd boy.

    [37:102] When he was old enough to actively help his father,
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    He said: "O my son, I had a vision in my dream: I was sacrified you.
    Take the time to think and tell me how you see this vision.
         He said, "O my father, do what is ordained to you.
         You will find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.

               [37:103] When both had subjected,
               and he heaped it to the forehead,

    [37:104] We called him, "O Abraham!
    [37:105] You have realized the vision well.
    This is how We reward the beneficent.
        [37:106] This was an explicit test.
        [37: 107] We rewarded him with a sacrifice beyond measure
        [37: 108] By perpetuated it to the after.
    [37:109] Peace over Abraham.
    [37:110] Thus We reward the beneficent.
    [37:111] He was of Our believing servants.

[37: 112] We gave him the glad tidings of Isaac,
a prophet among the upright.

=> I remarked Something interesting : In [37:111] God says "Believing servants". Why not just to say "Believing" if no real act has been made ? I think this an another sign from God...
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
Quote
He said: "O my son, I had a vision in my dream: I was sacrified you.

He did not say this. It almost amounts to altering the text of Qur'an.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 01:03:26 PM
Not altering just my poor English translation sorry

=> O my son, I see myself in my sleep sacrificing you. : Better in English ?
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 01:31:40 PM
Not altering just my poor English translation sorry

=> O my son, I see myself in my sleep sacrificing you. : Better in English ?

It is better but still needs improvement.  There is no "myself" in the text.  "in my sleep" this is preposition phrase with possessive phrase. In Arabic sentence it is only prepositional phrase. 
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 01:50:51 PM
Oooh ok thank you for corrected my english

=> I have seen in the dream that i was sacrifing you..right ?
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 01:54:32 PM
Oooh ok thank you for corrected my english

=> I have seen in the dream that i was sacrifing you..right ?

Now you have changed it into past perfect continuous. It is totally wrong.

Try in French, and ask Google to translate your sentence into English.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 02:15:48 PM
In Arabic the verb "adhbaḥu" in 37:102 is in the form " 1st person singular imperfect verb" right ?

And in English here is the definition of "imperfect verb" = The imperfect (abbreviated IMPERF) is a verb form which combines past tense (reference to a past time) and imperfective aspect (reference to a continuing or repeated event or state). It can have meanings similar to the English "was walking" or "used to walk." It contrasts with preterite forms, which refer to a single completed event in the past.

Otherwise give your traduction it will be more simple
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 01, 2019, 03:18:03 PM
In Arabic the verb "adhbaḥu" in 37:102 is in the form " 1st person singular imperfect verb" right ?

And in English here is the definition of "imperfect verb" = The imperfect (abbreviated IMPERF) is a verb form which combines past tense (reference to a past time) and imperfective aspect (reference to a continuing or repeated event or state). It can have meanings similar to the English "was walking" or "used to walk." It contrasts with preterite forms, which refer to a single completed event in the past.

Otherwise give your traduction it will be more simple

The term "imperfect" in English refers to forms much more commonly called past progressive or past continuous (like was doing or were doing). These are combinations of past tense with specifically continuous or progressive aspect.

In Arabic this is done by using deficient verb Kana followed by imperfect verb,

The imperfect indicative mood verb does not restrict itself to any idea of time; it indicates enduring existence, begun and incomplete, either in past, present or future time. It indicates an act which does not take place at any one particular time to the exclusion of any other point in time, but which takes place all the time, or rather in speaking of which no notice is taken of time, but only of duration. In English grammar, we call it "the present indefinite ", meaning an action is happening right now, when it happens regularly, or unceasingly which is why it is so called.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Novice on April 01, 2019, 03:31:55 PM
For making some thing easy, facilitator we need to do something. We must know how is it made easy only then it will become easily understandable.

Please share your wisdom for adding "about to" in your translation of 37:102
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 01, 2019, 08:17:47 PM
Salam!

Whatever the so-called grammar rules, the word ڈبح does not mean 'slaughter'.
It means to split, to separate etc. Refer to when Ibrahim says that he has left his progeny near بیتک المحرم.
Event of Yousuf and Yaqub tells us what happens when a son is separated from a father and how father feels.
Read AQ with your own eyes, listen with you own ears and use your own intellect.

Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 01, 2019, 11:29:29 PM
Salam!

Whatever the so-called grammar rules, the word ڈبح does not mean 'slaughter'.
It means to split, to separate etc. Refer to when Ibrahim says that he has left his progeny near بیتک المحرم.
Event of Yousuf and Yaqub tells us what happens when a son is separated from a father and how father feels.
Read AQ with your own eyes, listen with you own ears and use your own intellect.

Peace!
Salam Bro,

Good remark about the primary signification BUT different view => To cut,to ripped from ordinary life and to dedicate first your life for spreading the message of god

Please Don't "cut" this word from the subject of the surah 37 for a better understanding. (My first post on this topic)
In others surah, without no doubt, it means physical "sacrifice" (animal) like in [5:3].

The textual context is important as the member "Novice" underlined

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 02, 2019, 04:00:46 AM
Salam Bro,

Good remark about the primary signification BUT different view => To cut,to ripped from ordinary life and to dedicate first your life for spreading the message of god

Please Don't "cut" this word from the subject of the surah 37 for a better understanding. (My first post on this topic)
In others surah, without no doubt, it means physical "sacrifice" (animal) like in [5:3].

The textual context is important as the member "Novice" underlined

Peace

Every Root has a specific semantic field where it can be used. Like a seed which sprout and grow into a plant in a specific environment, each Root is used in specific semantic environment.

This Root is specific to slaughter -
A Killer causes the death of the Victim by rupturing, cutting a cleave in his throat.

However there is no restriction if people wish to wander everywhere.
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 02, 2019, 06:59:49 AM
Salam!

Who is 'killer' in the context, brother mazhar? Give proof.
There is no ڈبح in 5:3, dear Iyyaka! Read again. There is no killing of animals required in order to get God's pleasure (i.e. Sacrifice) because He clearly tells that the flesh or blood does not reach Him. And He doea not need Rizq because He is the one who guves Rizq to all.

Ibrahim left his progeny as a head of family. He prayed to God so that people may bring fruit to his progeny. Remember that prophets do not ask for اجر/wage for their preaching. If you read whole account of Ibrahim and his sons you will come to know that only Ismael and Ishaq were among the صالحین/righteous among his progeny. Ibrahim is also father of all mumineen ابیکم.

Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 02, 2019, 10:31:52 AM
Salam Brother,

There is no ڈبح in 5:3, dear Iyyaka!

=> Yes sorry the root appears in 5:3

(5:3:23) dhubiḥa = "is sacrificed"

وَمَا أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ


Read again. There is no killing of animals required in order to get God's pleasure (i.e. Sacrifice) because He clearly tells that the flesh or blood does not reach Him. And He doea not need Rizq because He is the one who guves Rizq to all.

I think you are confused about what the Quran is saying (or i Don't understand your intent)
Yes you are right when you said "He clearly tells that the flesh or blood does not reach Him. And He doea not need Rizq because He is the one who guves Rizq to all. "
But :
1) in 5:3 God talks about no eating food which is sacrified for pagan gods - No contradiction here and the word means "Physical Sacrifice"

2) I recommend you to medidate others ayats in surah 22 and you will see that during the Hajj there is "sacrifice" of animals for mumins.
With 2 diffrents goals than pagan idols :

 - show his gratitude to God only.
 - Feed the poor.

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
22:36 And the plump livestock, We have made them for you to be among the symbols of God; you will have benefit in them.
So mention the name of God upon them in succession; then, once their sides have become still, you may eat from them and feed with them the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.

Peace

Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mahdi Ibrahim on April 02, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
no such thing.. but Christian doctrine in the Quran..

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6OI5IUQTvWE/V9xs_4TqL4I/AAAAAAAAAkY/h_HW2ksIw30NhYkYTC_O7iyko1pKQEhxgCLcB/s1600/ibrahimsacrifice.jpg)

+ Ismail (the patient one, the righteous) was not Ibrahim's son.. but a stranger.  :laugh:

When he had separated himself from them, and what they served besides Allah, We gave him Ishaq and Yaqub (Ismail), making each of them a Prophet. (19:49)
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: hawk99 on April 02, 2019, 12:56:12 PM
Peace, what is the origin of the dream?  Is it inspiration?
Diet?  shaytayn? what?
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 02, 2019, 01:34:32 PM
Salam Brother,

=> Yes sorry the root appears in 5:3

(5:3:23) dhubiḥa = "is sacrificed"

وَمَا أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ

This is also seperate and divide by arrows/ازلام. Read very carefully.

Quote

I think you are confused about what the Quran is saying (or i Don't understand your intent)
Yes you are right when you said "He clearly tells that the flesh or blood does not reach Him. And He doea not need Rizq because He is the one who guves Rizq to all. "
But :
1) in 5:3 God talks about no eating food which is sacrified for pagan gods - No contradiction here and the word means "Physical Sacrifice"

2) I recommend you to medidate others ayats in surah 22 and you will see that during the Hajj there is "sacrifice" of animals for mumins.
With 2 diffrents goals than pagan idols :

 - show his gratitude to God only.
 - Feed the poor.

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
22:36 And the plump livestock, We have made them for you to be among the symbols of God; you will have benefit in them.
So mention the name of God upon them in succession; then, once their sides have become still, you may eat from them and feed with them the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.

Peace
Have you studied/meditated all ayats? We follow or try to find truth from others' works. We follow what we think is logical but we do not care to see with own eyes. When so called scholars make birds halal to eat then we do not try to see for an ayah which says Birds طیر are halal to eat. Do we? There's one ayah which mentions طیر in Jannah and the word یشتہون/یشتھون is used. What does this word mean?
God has ن ز ل eight pairs ثمنیۃ ازواج for you from an'am (39:6). What does that mean? God has asked a question regarding these eight pairs of an'am. What is answer to that question? (6:143).
Where in 22:36 it says to ڈبح an animal and feed the poor?

BTW do you like killing animals and birds?
Remember that God has every  نفس make know what is right and what is wrong. But Iblees makes our deeds good for us. (which may not be good near God.

Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 02, 2019, 01:38:01 PM
no such thing.. but Christian doctrine in the Quran..

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6OI5IUQTvWE/V9xs_4TqL4I/AAAAAAAAAkY/h_HW2ksIw30NhYkYTC_O7iyko1pKQEhxgCLcB/s1600/ibrahimsacrifice.jpg)

+ Ismail (the patient one, the righteous) was not Ibrahim's son.. but a stranger.  :laugh:

When he had separated himself from them, and what they served besides Allah, We gave him Ishaq and Yaqub (Ismail), making each of them a Prophet. (19:49)
You may be right. Can you tell what does غ ل م mean? It is also used for Yahya.
Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mahdi Ibrahim on April 02, 2019, 01:47:00 PM
Gh-Lam-Miim = excited with lust, stirred up, tumultuous, period from birth to the seventeenth year, youth, young man, boy.

a stranger who wishes to migrate with Ibrahim...
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 02, 2019, 01:51:10 PM
Salam!

Can anyone tell what does  ضامر in 22:27 mean? And if it means a lean camel then how much flesh is there to eat in a lean camel when they reach their destination after long and difficult travelling in فج عمیق? And how much to divide and feed the poor?

I am really confused.

Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 02, 2019, 02:23:26 PM

This is also seperate and divide by arrows/ازلام. Read very carefully.
Have you studied/meditated all ayats? We follow or try to find truth from others' works. We follow what we think is logical but we do not care to see with own eyes. When so called scholars make birds halal to eat then we do not try to see for an ayah which says Birds طیر are halal to eat. Do we? There's one ayah which mentions طیر in Jannah and the word یشتہون/یشتھون is used. What does this word mean?
God has ن ز ل eight pairs ثمنیۃ ازواج for you from an'am (39:6). What does that mean? God has asked a question regarding these eight pairs of an'am. What is answer to that question? (6:143).
Where in 22:36 it says to ڈبح an animal and feed the poor?

BTW do you like killing animals and birds?
Remember that God has every  نفس make know what is right and what is wrong. But Iblees makes our deeds good for us. (which may not be good near God.

Peace!
You know If i find good thinking from others, based on the quran himself, i have no problems to share with others (i did it with the video in this post even if i am not agree with all he said)
If a reasoning is good it doesn't matter for me to know if it comes from me or an another => Only Truth (not interpretation) is important and to serve God. But God remains my master.
Personnally, I have an experience in the quranic rhetoric and i share whith you My own works (22:40, 37:102...)
Quran is remarkably organized and Semitic Rhetoric is a good tool to approach it as i tried to demonstrate here in different posts.

Sure you have meditate al-quran.
The question we have to ask : is it my own interpretation or not ?

To answer you on these aspects : (i quote u)
(1) "God has ن ز ل eight pairs ثمنیۃ ازواج for you from an'am (39:6). What does that mean? God has asked a question regarding these eight pairs of an'am. What is answer to that question? (6:143).
(2)Where in 22:36 it says to ڈبح an animal and feed the poor?"

My answers =>
(1) Quran says that all is good to eat (except 4 kinds of foods he describes). Pagan idols had a lot of taboo, interdiction and the Quran fight against these kinds of tradition (like it did with the jews...). Sorry but simple.
(2) If you want to eat an animal before you have to kill it right ? is it not a "sacrifice" for feeding you and/or poor people? We can play with the words but the reality is there.

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 02, 2019, 03:54:47 PM
Salam!

Can anyone tell what does  ضامر in 22:27 mean? And if it means a lean camel then how much flesh is there to eat in a lean camel when they reach their destination after long and difficult travelling in فج عمیق? And how much to divide and feed the poor?

I am really confused.

Peace!

Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways ? [22:27]

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/08.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20010/2.%20Bebadneka%20Ba%20Daal%20Noon/2.gif)
Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm)
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on April 02, 2019, 11:19:57 PM
Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways — [22:27]

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/08.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20010/2.%20Bebadneka%20Ba%20Daal%20Noon/2.gif)
Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm)
Salam Bro,

Nothing to add EXCEPT why have you translated the word "'amiqin" also by "Distant" ?

In dictionnary it means "depth, profoundness, enclosure.."

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Mazhar on April 02, 2019, 11:48:43 PM
Salam Bro,

Nothing to add EXCEPT why have you translated the word "'amiqin" also by "Distant" ?

In dictionnary it means "depth, profoundness, enclosure.."

Peace

Salam,
Lane's Lexicon

عُمْقٌ as an attribute of a road signifies distance:
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: TellMeTheTruth on April 13, 2019, 09:36:12 AM
Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways ? [22:27]

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/08.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20010/2.%20Bebadneka%20Ba%20Daal%20Noon/2.gif)
Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm)
Salam!
Thank you brother Mazhar for your reply. I understand that it is not ضامر to sacrifice. Instead بھیمۃ الانعام or البدن (fattened camels) are to be sacrificed. However, i think people using ضامر (swift animals to ride) cannot move faster with fattened animals like sheep, cow, camel and goat. What do you say? What is the point to use ضامر?
Pls also share link to the word بھیمۃ and انعام. What is difference between انعام and بھیمۃ الانعام? Thank you!
Peace!
Peace!
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on July 09, 2019, 08:25:29 AM
Salam,

I realized that i made a few mistakes by structuring the passage (37:100->112) according to the principles of the rhetorical analysis of the Koranic text (I recall the principle of symmetry, binary which is its heart). It will also be the opportunity to add some comments or to deepen certain aspects already treated (Basic root meaning of certain terms..)

This passage is structured according to the scheme: : A - B - B' - A'. My mistake : It is not a concentric structure as i said previously (Found in page 2 of this subject)

- A-
My responsible-of-evolution, grant me among the righteous.
So, We gave him the glad tidings of a shrewd/ḥalīmin boy.
     
     - B -
     Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-saʿya,
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a)
          He said: "O my son, Indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
          so look what you think-about-it/tarā..
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a')
          He said, "O my father, do what you were commanded..
          You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined/l-ṣābirīna.


     - B' -
     Then when/falammā both of them had abandonned instantly to Allah's order and he heaped it/watallahu to the
     forehead/lil'jabīni,
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a)
          And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
          You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step (verbal Form 2 and past tense means accomplish something) the vision.
          Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
               (x)
               Indeed, this (was) surely [it] an explicit trial.
               And we rewarded him with a sacrifice great.
               And we perpetuate it for him in the After.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a')
          Peace be on Ibrahim.
          Thus We reward the good-doers.
          Indeed, he (was) among our faithful servants.

- A' -
And we gave him the glad tidings of Isaac,
a prophet among the righteous.


--- Vocabulary -----

(37:101:3)
ḥalīmin ?
Ibn Faris says its basic meaning is not to hurry, i.e. not to flare up instantly over some trivial thing. Thus, it led to the word “ تَحَلَّمَ الْمَا ل ” (tahallamal maal) which is said when the animals become fat and corpulent, and they become more sturdy too.
Therefore, “ حَلِیْمٌ ” (haleem) means understanding, authentic, stable, always one to act according to law and principle, one who does not flare up emotionally, shrewd (in relationship with mind)
Simple selflessness is the product of weakness but "hilm" encompasses a feeling of strength and energy within it, but which is under full control and which does not allow for loss of this control even under very stringent circumstances and does nothing that is cause for repentance. So it cannot be use for a child but for someone who at least reach the puberty (enough strength and and ability to reason with discernment by oneself). The following verse (37:102) will confirm it by using the word "l-saʿya".
So we cannot speak first of humility, self-effacing, soft spoken, forbearing..

(37:102:4)
l-saʿya ?
The Quran has used this word to mean run (2:260, 20:20), as well as to mean to strive for (17:19). That is, running around, struggle, strive and take action, etc.

(37:102:12)
adhbaḥuka ?
ذَبَحَ  (zabah) (yazbah): to slaughter, to split, to tear apart => To split from a normal life to an elevated life dedicated to God...
Ibn Faris also says that these are its basic meanings.

(37:102:15)
tarā ?
(rooyah): to comprehend some material thing.

This word is used for seeing with the eyes, or have insight, or to dream or think about it.

(37:102:26)
l-ṣābirīna
It is said for a long time, period

(37:103:3)
watallahu
and he put him down ?

The fundamental meaning of (tallu) is the land that is considerably higher than the surroundings.
Example -> (al-latllu min turaab) is a mound of dirt. So to heap.. The root T-L-W (close) shares alos this notion to accumulate, Something, coming after another thing etc..

We find this definition in Hebrew too : https://saintebible.com/hebrew/8510.htm

And more definition : to knock down, to lay down, to be tough, to be stocky, to agitate..What is the link with the fundamental meaning excepted lexical entries following the exegesis of the Koran. Perhaps, a solution may comes from the bible where we can find the notion of a heap but a heap (with an idea of something compact) of ruin ; following the destruction of something elevated at the origin like a city or a temple.

(37:103:4)
lil'jabīni ?
(1)   li - ل = to, for..Often allows to express possession. There is no idea of « upon/on » as many people translate it.
(2)   Jabini = forehead but not all the forehead, a precise part of the forehead . Indeed, (al- ajabeenaani) is temples (both sides of forehead) where the folds occur. Its singular is  (al- jabeenu). (al-jabhatunh) is also the fore head (this in between the temples).

Remark : Whe you lay down the animal for slaughering it you put it on one side to slaughter it with ease not on the forehead !

(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna ?
(al-husn): Muheet says that (husn), or beauty means for all limbs to be in the right proportion, and generally the word (haseen), or beautiful, is used for things which are pleasing to the eye due to their balanced proportions. As such (husn) means the right proportion and symmetry, and is the opposite of (so’a) which means unbalanced or bad.

Remark : Does even trying to kill is own son is something from god (Al-Rahman Al-Rahim) and it is something beauty and well mentally balanced ?

(37:107:3)
ʿaẓīmin
great ?
Ibn Faris says that this root means to be great and strong.
Surah An-Noor uses (azeem) to mean “importance” against (hayyin), which means “something not so important” (24:15).

--- Meditation-----

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
2:106 : Any sign which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
=> The sacrifice of Isaac from the bible (contradictory with the principles of the Koran) is "consign to oblivion" and replace with a better and similar one, the sacrifice of Abraham and Ismael to build a city dedicated to God..

Peace
Title: Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
Post by: Iyyaka on August 10, 2019, 04:33:15 AM
Salam,

By meditating on Wakas' article (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426248;boardseen#new (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426248;boardseen#new)) and on this other article https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610716.0 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610716.0), an idea came to me to try to grasp the meaning of "watallahu lil'jabīni" in (37:103).
Also by meditating on a passage that is often overlooked in (37:102) about the speech of ismael: "If Allah intends" ...
Looking at the structure of this passage more closely we can notice a Synonymy between the two parts (Below part one in red and part two in blue)

As a reminder, the sequence B speaks of the vision and the sequence B' is AFTER the vision has been realized.
Two temporal sequences that are connected and follow each other but without the central sequence that details the vision that asks to devote oneself to God.

Reminder of some parts of the structure of the passage (37:100-112)

Rhetoric analysis :

- B -
Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-sa'ya,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a)
       He said: "O my son, indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
       so look what you think-about-it
       - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a')
       He said, "O my father, do what you were ordered.
       You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined / l-ṣābirīna.

- B '-
Then when/falammā both of them had abandoned (to Allah's order)
  and watallahu to the forehead/lil'jabīni,
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a)
       And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
       You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step.
       Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.

Linguistic analysis :

- the root of jīm bā nūn (ج ب ن) "lil'jabīni" refers also to someone who is a coward, weak, shrink..
So lil'jabīni can symbolically represented cowardice, lack of determination and being the opposite of the root root is ṣād bā rā (ص ب ر) "l-ṣābirīna"

So, the expression"watallahu lil'jabīni,"  can means "God helped Ishmael to not to be weak, a coward and to be among the resolute/the determined/persevering" as Ishmael asks in (37:102) => he (Allah) put down the cowardise, the weakness of Ishmael.

Peace