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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: burhan on February 08, 2019, 03:40:04 AM

Title: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 08, 2019, 03:40:04 AM
I understand why quranists want quran434 interpretation to be true, but it's completely wrong.

Most words have multiple meaning but their ambiguity is resolved by grammar rules of that language.

The word Daraba can have other meanings when used with a preposition or an adverb.
However, where Daraba takes the object directly it can only mean beat/hit.
The object of the verb, i.e. the person or thing affected by the action.

Doer of DRB prepostion Object = alternate meaning

DRB object = hit

In 4:34 it takes the object (women) directly. There are no prepositions, adverbs etc.

I've highlighted the different cases although it's much clearer to see in the arabic. Red=alternate meaning Green=hit.

There is never an instance where the verb is taking the object directly and the meaning isn't to-hit.

They article goes out of it's way to prove that DRB never ever means hit by creating alternate meanings e.g 13.
The fact that it's imperative and noun forms mean physical hitting is a significant pointer of what core meaning of DRB is.

Another trick is not use the full arabic word but use a strange arabic/english concoction "idriboo them". This way you hide the fact the verb is taking the object directly. The word in 4:43 is Wadribuhunna

1)
DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth
[2:273, 3:156, 4:101, 5:106, 73:20]

2)
DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path
[4:94]

Verb does not take the affected object (us readers) directly in any of these - i.e. Allah is the doer of DRB (not the receiver or affected by it)/
3)
DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable
[2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11]
4)
kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
[13:17]

5)
Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years
[18:11]

Verb takes the object directly
6)
Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."
[8:50]

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?
[47:27]


7)
wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests
[24:31]

8 )
wala yadribna bi arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet
[24:31]

9)
Afanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder
[43:5]

10)
fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall
[57:13]

11)
fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea
[20:77]

Imperative form.
12)
idrib  bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated
[26:63]

idrib  bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)
[2:60]

idrib  bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)
[7:160]

13)
idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder)
[2:73]


14)
Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath
[38:44]

15)
duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them
[2:61, 3:112, 3:112]

16) Imperative form.

17)
fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them
[47:4]

18 - Noun




Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: huruf on February 08, 2019, 04:52:06 AM
What you ay is not true, wakas did an extensive estudy of it, and in fact as it turns out in none of the cases of daraba in the Qur'an is hit he only menaing nor the best meaning or most fitting. In 4-34 it is just ludicruous. Nobody has done anything wrong, that people in general, because do not forget it is people that are being addressed not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person, just as women, the second person is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, people in general are addressed all along.

So who is going to hit who because the people fears that some females may do something, but nohting ha been done?

You speak about grammar, but grammar tells you that what you interpret is absolute nonsense. You might like the Qur'an to say nongsense so you feel vindicated in your prejudices, but the fact is that it does not.

Salaam

Salaam
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 08, 2019, 06:39:48 AM
if this word got multiple uses then perhaps its there due to a reason.

God guide and misguide people from same verses.

due to this verse some women love getting beat i have witnessed it.
they enjoyed it while somebody beat her otherwise she dnt feel nothing ( lol ).

once i get shocked when a woman told me that ?u r a soft person and u hate violence and color of blood hence we have a mismatch? coz i like (wild/rough).

i know some girls/boys who are strange type in beating their ownselves. they write a name of their beloved with some sharp edge thing(knife,razor) on their arms/hands etc for showing their true love lol.

one of my friend encounter a same thing he get married with a women who request from him to beat her while intercourse ( crazy hell) after 4 weeks of martiage he eventually breakup with her. he asked me one day what should i do?

i say him if thats the only way then just beat her and see her response . next day he was telling me she enjoyed a lot she love beating and she was telling me not to stop hitting.and i asked then what happened?

he showd me his swelled hand and i start felling pity for him hahahha he goes to me my hand start hurting while slapping her the way she wanted. but she was loving it and he said i dnt think so we have a match.( its a true event) i ll make it short we inquired about her and found out she had 6 marriages in last 5 years.

her divorce papers from different people were  hanging  on wall where people hang utility bills . :rotfl: ( thats what he said to me ).

so this verse is open for the people not only girls but also boys who believe in beating science.

some people love slaping (surveys) + evidence
some people love wild (survey) + evidence

as well as this four partners thing ( some guys/girls cant get satisfied with singularity) they always want more for them its also open to get partners.

before 100 years it was very normal that a man have two or three wives and all wives lives under same roof. society accepted it ( i dunno no why) but even still happening but now things are getting reversed due to social media. in short i think Quran/God never want to interfare or imposed a law of ?only? one partner due to reason. coz if Quran already make a law of only one partner then it would be a struggle for those who get bored from (singularity/uniformity). author is highly intelligent no doubt.

about this beating thing (personally) i hate violence. but in this life we have different flavours of people. some of them love violence.

in the END i want to ask/reflect on something if somebody can understand. becoz i know in advance most of brilliant minds in this forum hardly get what i want to say hope so this question will let you guys think what i am on about.

Question
if a woman love beating and in a situation like my friend ( what advise we should give to them) ? is it allowed for him to beat her in that specific occassion? becoz grammer of quran never in a favour of violence ? it will be difficult for him to act on what God did not command.?

 or its a matter of choice if they both get match like both (wild) people is it ok to have beat now? what if a girl say if she get satisfaction of beat she will give him prays so basically hez helping her in achieving her fantasy its kind a good deed?

every issue got discrepencies only if we think as a WHOLE.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: jkhan on February 08, 2019, 10:05:55 AM
Dear Burhan...
Below is a general translation i took....

4:34 Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand"

My dear.... God uses only the way of solution and not infuse petrol to burning fire... Your mother is a woman,,,  do you like to beat her when she act same way the wife... If you can sole the issue of your mother without approaching for violence then man should be able to solve the issue with wife or even sisters for that matter if you are believing man...
It's so easy to grasp with the flow of the verse...
Don't forget first it was revealed to a Arabic community and that also a long time back... First priority of the verse is for them... Then whoever is applicable.. As you all know not all thing in Quran is relevant to all.. For example don't raise the voice of your above prophet... Simple...

God says Man is the leading role... It's fair enough  in that society... Even now it is the case....  Man always act as man.... Man can't be weak when compared with women.. If the comparison goes with equal. Nature.. For example Usain bolt vs Veronica Campbell... They don't match... Lol..
In general men is the one who earns those days... Women take the role of household.... Even after all these years... Even in developed countries this pattern still there though both are working... Modern day men are very smart and they are much cooperative in family matters as well while having to work or doing a business... If you think modern day is different... I don't agree... You ask any girl would you like to marry a jobless man?  😬 99.9 I guess No... But same question to men... You will. See drastic difference... Men doesn't mind even women work or not... In every crooks and corners of life we can see this pattern...
So righteous women spontaneously become obedient depending on the behaviour of her partner... Even partner goes wrong she Will try to correct him... Coz she fears God and she is a obedient righteous person... She prefers her husband also righteous...

The other point is FEAR and ILLCONDUCT of women.. Note... not men but women.... Coz this instructions are meant for Men and not for women... Women in this scenarios is part of it...
Nor if the illconduct and fear is not around then family life goes smoothly and no creepy situations....
But if it fails this commandment cones into effect... ... Remember this instructions is to Men and that also seems to be to a believing. Men... Otherwise to a bad man these instructions won't work... Coz before he correct his woman he himself should reform....
ILLCONDUCT of any nature is irritating for a life which has a bond... Specially marriage life which has no blood relations and can break up any time...
So... What is the first of those such men has to do... ADVICE... such a basic thing... Advising to a woman who has illconduct or the believing man fears she has such illconduct... Advices may work or may not depending on the illconduct of the women and her curiosity on it...
NEXT....  Still they live together... No divorce after all those advices.... So God say second step.... Why coz first step didn't workout.... Otherwise second option is not needed...
FORSAKE THEM IN BED....
This is key.... If she is really a person who has a misconduct (such aa having a secret relationship with another man sexually or for passtime them she won't feel the forsaking from the bed..)  she won't mind... Right?..  But if it was only his doubt she would feel it... And the man would notice it... So he can start trusting her...
THIRD STEP...
DARAB.... it's not beat.. Nonsense.. After all this only you want to beat her... He must be a very patient fellow.. Lol... Just use common sense... To beat a women in situations like this,  it won't take ages for a man if she actually had ILLCONDUCT... But believer won't do so... But if it is a normal person he won't go through all these,  coz he has already doubted her whether she is right or wrong...
But only a true believer can be patient and go through all these steps of God instructed..
What is DARAB... Why we need to step into the third option which is DARAB?? coz this believing man has found out that his wife is not bothered about not sharing the bed with her...so second mission also failed.... So it is evidence..... Clear evidence.. If she doesn't like/bothered to share the bed with the man she is married then his doibt is clear..
So DARAB is to MOVE FORWARD... no point of having any more relationship with her... She is. No more of his... Moving forward to take steps and not violence... Divorce is one option and look for another wife if it is allowed for him to marry another under the conditions of those days.. Such as right hand possess etc.... Set forth your journey... You can't keep playing games...
But if she in between reform and obeys you in case... Then react not in any means against her... It shows still you can accept her... Be as family again...
For such behavior in women there could be various reasons.. Sometimes her lonliness coz of the absence of her husband. For longtime.. .. Or the weakness of the husband sexually... Etc.. And it can be her own extreme interest on others....  Such things are family matters... Needed to be addressed and solved
.not the option of beating... By beating what solution you expect... She will only become worse mentally and physically and you will only become the culprit... Life is havoc...
Doesn't the DARAB = move forward  / turn away also in Arabic... Even the meaning of press will suit as the last option... You can press her..
Pls don't hit women if you are a man... Be any woman unless she attack you for your self defence... ..
Don't spoil Arabic and Quran with hadith...
God guide us...
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 08, 2019, 12:07:47 PM
Peace All
When I first came across that verse years ago, I was thinking to myself the following:
1- what does one hit with? your hand, a stick, your slipper...etc
2- How hard should one hit? weak, medium or hard.
3- How many times? few hits, more than a dozen or until I am tired of hitting.

Then it hit me. GOD did not say, why? Has GOD left it up to us to choose the weapon ,the severity and the length of the hitting?

I looked at my wife, bless her she is an angel and asked her opinion she said, quote:
"Let me read it for myself". I gave her few minutes  when she finished she smiled and left the room. I quickly called her back .
Tell me what you think please? She looked at me and said: "Is the verse addressing both of us?, I could also hit you!!!

I said What? She said it is  addressing "Rijal"  that could be you or me. Don t you remember when....
I said You mean "the bread winner"....etc.
Anyway cutting the story short we both agreed there is no way GOD will ask us to hit but leaves it to our discretion. Some will kill the person under the pretext...etc.

Never ever ,since then did I even give "hit" a thought.
Never should it come to that anyway looking at the options in the verse.
Just my thoughts.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 08, 2019, 03:16:33 PM
true GL brother,

but also author instruct us to use reason.

so i didnt advice women to hit a man most of the cases men physically stronger than women.

but if women sure she can beat the shit out of arrogant husband then i m fully with her. evrybody should get lesson.

moreover i see cases in which women proved themselves ?equal? when they beat men.last year my one of my frd was complaing me about his hand he said my wife yesterday beat me i asked why he said i beat her first and she was in mood hahaha so she attack back and he cant defend himself. i said she ROCKs.

i laugh a lot when women knight in ?game of thrones? beat two of the powerful warrior hand to hand , i rate that women.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 09, 2019, 03:53:56 AM
peace burhan,

lol@you,

Bro, you have contradicted yourself:


The word Daraba can have other meanings when used with a preposition or an adverb.
However, where Daraba takes the object directly it can only mean beat/hit.
The object of the verb, i.e. the person or thing affected by the action.

Doer of DRB prepostion Object = alternate meaning

DRB object = hit

In 4:34 it takes the object (women) directly. There are no prepositions, adverbs etc.

I've highlighted the different cases although it's much clearer to see in the arabic. Red=alternate meaning Green=hit.

You then go on to highlight green verses which have a preposition, i.e. DRB + preposition + object, and do not highlight in red the DRB+mathal verses (I assume because it doesn't fit your view) - does it mean hit in them or not? And for 18:11 you say "Verb takes the object directly" but it doesn't mean hit - or does it here according to you? And (14) has preposition etc. etc.

Your claims are a mess right from the start.

Please make up your mind before I can take your critique seriously.

I am happy to address it once you clarify.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 09, 2019, 10:34:28 AM
peace burhan,

lol@you,
Grow up and cut out the ad-hominems. 

Quote
You then go on to highlight green verses which have a preposition, i.e. DRB + preposition + object, and do not highlight in red the DRB+mathal verses (I assume because it doesn't fit your view) - does it mean hit in them or not?

I couldn't highlight because there was no text to highlight from your article.

Besides, you can't beat an example. There is no ambiguity when dealing with abstract nouns.
DRB + abstract noun will ways be non-physical by definition. There is nothing you can do to the language to make an asbtract noun turn magically into a physical thing.
 
 
Quote
And for 18:11 you say "Verb takes the object directly" but it doesn't mean hit

No I didn't - look again. That comment refers to your article point 6).


14. The verse doesn't tell us what he is supposed to hit.  Whether you take it to mean physical hitting or metaphor doesn't really change my argument. There are three categories;

1) DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical

2) DRB + real object directly =>  meaning is always physical contact.
 
3) DRB + real object indirectly =>  Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

4:34 takes it's object directly in the most explicit sense because there is a direct object pronoun attached to the verb.


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 09, 2019, 01:25:42 PM
peace burhan,

What can I say your post made me laugh.

Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again...

Quote
1) DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical

2) DRB + real object directly =>  meaning is always physical contact.
 
3) DRB + real object indirectly =>  Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

You can use the article at Quran434.com (like you did in your original post) and cut & paste which ones/types fall into which category.

Quote
14. The verse doesn't tell us what he is supposed to hit.  Whether you take it to mean physical hitting or metaphor doesn't really change my argument.

Quote from article: ** Arabic: bihi (with it). "hi" refers to a masculine and the closest preceding masculine is the cool spring.

If you disagree/agree, please provide your translation of the relevant part in 38:44 "...khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi..."
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 09, 2019, 02:58:30 PM


Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.


exvellent bro,  :bravo:

THIS method appears hard/tough/timetaking thats y its obvious to see why lot of people are unaware about a basic method of crosscheck for checing the credibilty of any calim what they are making. ( as per scholarly rules of text)
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 09, 2019, 03:04:14 PM
Quote
Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again

You asked for a clarification which I duly provided. Now you are disparaging me for doing the very thing you asked me to do. The more pride you show the harder it will be for you to change your mind.

CAT-1 is self-evident. You can't physically hit an abstract object, which is why I didn't explicitly mention it. We know the meaning of those verses can never be physical contact. So whether the sentences use prepositions or a different verb form is irrelevant. These verses can be completely ignored from the analysis.

That leaves with us with real objects. What we should look at is how does DRB behave when it is used with a real object directly (CAT-2) and with a preposition (CAT-3).

Quote
Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

I would have thought it's pretty obvious what the categories are based on the definitions. Abstract objects = CAT-1,
Real objects = CAT-2 & Prepositions = CAT -3.

The categories are descriptive of the Arabic text not prescriptive of my view. It's like asking me to list all even numbers after I tell you an even number is a number that is divisible by 2. We should both have the same list numbers. Anyway, I've done as you asked. Please do check and confirm. We should be in agreement as it's a just sorting exercise.

Your list contains Noun forms of DRB. These shouldn't really be in the list but I have left them in for completeness.

1) DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth CAT-3
[2:273, 3:156, 4:101, 5:106, 73:20]

2) DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path CAT-3
[4:94]

3) DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable CAT-1
[2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11]

4) kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
[13:17] CAT-1

5) Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years CAT-3
[18:11]

6) Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi CAT-2
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."
[8:50]

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?
[47:27]

7) wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests CAT-3
[24:31]

8) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
[24:31]

9) Afanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder CAT-1
[43:5]

10) fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall CAT-3
[57:13]

11) fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea CAT-3
[20:77]

12) idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated CAT-2
[26:63]

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)
[2:60]

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)
[7:160]

13) idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder) CAT-2
[2:73]

14) Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath CAT-2
[38:44]

15) duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them CAT-1
[2:61, 3:112, 3:112]


16) fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity. CAT-2
[8:12]

17) fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them CAT-2
[47:4]

18) Fa ragha AAalayhim darban bi al yameeni = then he turned upon them striking with the right hand CAT-2
[37:93]


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 11, 2019, 02:53:45 PM
Wakas do you need more time or are you no longer interested in discussing this?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 12, 2019, 09:46:56 AM
I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

before
2 categories
DRB+object = hit

latest
3 categories
DRB+object = physical contact

Just pointing this out in case readers missed it. So, let's get to the crux of the matter, and that is your category 2:

Quote
1) DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical

2) DRB + real object directly =>  meaning is always physical contact.
 
3) DRB + real object indirectly =>  Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

Using Quran434.com list, you classified the following as Cat2:

6) DRB+object

12) DRB+preposition+object

16) DRB+preposition+object

17) DRB+object

18) DRB+preposition+(object)


Can you clarify why some of the above are not Cat3?

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 12, 2019, 01:59:49 PM
I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

I appreciate your time. Yes it's good that you summarize as we go along. I don't know if you were implying a difference between hit and physical contact. It's the same in my mind. We can use literal and non-literal if you want.

John was hitting Katie (physical contact, literalusage of hit)
John was hitting on Katie (flirting, a non-literal usage of hit)

We can clarify this point later as I need to address your question first before we can move to meanings.

I think there are two questions here that you are asking.

Why I think those verses are in Cat-2?
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

So the categorization has nothing to do with what I think verse means. Cat-2 is simply all those verses where the DRB takes it's object (Maf'ool bihi) directly without a corresponding object preposition.  If I see an object preposition then that verse is Cat-3. The categorization is simply identifying the sentence structure - I'm not implying any meaning at this point. I will give my rationale for why I think all Cat-2 verses are literal, but it's important we understand each other on the sentence structure.
 
So by definition 6 and 17 are Cat-2 as you agree there is no preposition.

Point 12, 16, 18 also don?t' have an object preposition.


Point 12 - Verse 26:63

(https://i.ibb.co/xGCNfvm/Point-12-C26-V63.png) (https://ibb.co/nfgFn23)

There is no preposition with "the sea".  "the sea" is the Maf?ool bihi - the thing to which DRB is done.
If you are thinking "with your staff" is a preposition that's wrong as well.  "with your staff" is not the Maf?ool bihi of the verb DRB.
If the phrase was "Min al bahra" from the sea, then yes "Min" would be a preposition.


Point 16 - Verse 8:12

(https://i.ibb.co/yy0Cyzy/Point-16-C8-V12.png) (https://ibb.co/k8KT8L8)

This is in two parts. The first part the object "the necks" has no preposition. The second part does have a preposition "from them" for the object "every fingertip". So the first part is Cat-2 and the second part is Cat-3.


Point 18 - Verse 37:93

(https://i.ibb.co/NTB3KbM/Point-18-C37-V93.png) (https://ibb.co/RjwScdq)

Here we have the noun form.  The preposition "upon"  in "upon them" goes with the verb "Then he turned". 
There is no object preposition connecting Darban to it's Maf'ool bihi.
 
I hope we can now have agreement on the categorization. You might need to check all my Cat-3 again to make sure that there is definitely a preposition.
 
I think you already agree with Cat-1.










Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 12, 2019, 03:54:14 PM
Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 43:57?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 13, 2019, 02:49:47 AM
Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 43:57?

Same, Cat-1. The maf'ool bihi is the example of Son-of-Mary - that's an abstract thing.

For example if I say "I like Wakas's ideas." that doesn't mean I like you it means I like your ideas.

Note it's in the passive voice, so there is no doer of DRB. So it can't mean something silly like Son-of-Mary hit the example etc.

The translation (in passive voice) here would be: When the Son-of-Mary example was cited, your people laughed about it.

Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

Quote
8 ) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
[24:31]

It's intransitive so no object is required. I would accept your objection as it doesn't fit in any category.   







 
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 13, 2019, 05:56:08 AM
Re: 43:57
I asked those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I when I wrote my article about this verse and this is what they said which I wrote on Quran434.com

Quote
In 43:57 Jesus is the second object of the verb DuRiBa, and in this verse it is in the perfect passive form meaning the object received the action expressed in the verb, i.e. Jesus received DRB, i.e. Jesus was put/shown forth / cited/indicated (as an example) by those disputing. In 43:57 "mathala" could be considered an adverbial accusative that names or modifies the action of the verb. So the type of "darab" of the object "Jesus" is that of an "example".

Also, I'm not convinced it would go into the abstract category but I guess that could be disputed.

Quote from: burhan
Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

That would make it consistent with your categorisation of (14) 38:44. However, I agree it doesn't quite fit into any category.

#####

So the following are your Cat2 (in addition to 4:34):

6), 12), 13), 16) 1st part, 17), 18)

8 ), 14) = Cat2 / not any category

Quote from: burhan
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

I assume you have read my analysis of the above verses and the various issues surrounding them, so yes now we can move onto why you think they mean physical hit (bearing in mind the objections I've raised on Quran434.com).

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 13, 2019, 08:54:46 AM
ok great. So to summarize we agree

CAT-1
As above but 43:57 is disputed.
We agree the meaning in those by definition is non-literal, as the object of DRB is abstract.

CAT-2
6), 8 )* 12), 13), 14)* 16) 1st part, 17), 18)

*or no category

We agree no object preposition is present but meaning not decided.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

Obviously we can both mistakes, so these can be corrected or disputed with good will.




I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal  9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s :) 

What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 14, 2019, 03:31:20 AM
When I imply agreement with your categorisation I don't mean that's how I think they should be categorised. I am just agreeing with your categorisation (based on your own criteria). Just clarifying.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

I do not necessarily agree. Previously you said this about Cat3 "Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical." But I dont think we need to get into that right now and we should focus on your Cat2.

Quote from: burhan
I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

It's fairly rare to be able to prove a word in Quran can only mean one thing and nothing else.

Quote
Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal  9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s :) 
What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

I dont think grading is helpful, and we should definitely keep the discussion in one thread. I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.

e.g.
6) [8:50], [47:27]

If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.


Reference
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 14, 2019, 05:11:48 AM
With the grading I was trying to establish a baseline. I don't want to strawman your arguments so it's important that I understand exactly what you are trying to say in your article.

The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?

In your article you say;
Quote
It has been shown that there is not one clear occurrence in The Quran in which "beat" is the meaning of DRB.

which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.

But then you say;
Quote
The only verses in which the preposition "bi" is used with DRB are 24:31, 57:13, 26:63,
2:60, 7:160, 2:73, 38:44, 37:93, and in all these occurrences the meaning is a
literal/physical usage:

which made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier. I hope you can see my issue here.

If there isn't a criteria i.e. for you DRB never ever means hit/strike then discussing it's usage in the Quran is pointless. We'd then have to get into a discussion of how DRB was used and understood in pre-islamic texts and why today it's literal meaning is or isn't hit/strike.

So to summarize;


I hope these discussions aren't annoying and that I'm bring something of value.


 



 











Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 14, 2019, 05:51:41 AM
The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?

When the usage fits like a glove, i.e. there are no logical/practical/cross-reference/grammar/etc problems. I've accepted it can mean hit/strike in Quran, as discussed at Quran434.com

Quote
In your article you say;
which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.

But then you say;
which made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier.

There is no contradiction. Simplified, I'm saying:

There is no clear occurrence of DRB meaning "beat".
When used with the preposition "bi" it indicates a physical usage (including hit/strike).

Please note there is a difference between "hit/strike" and "beat", as also mentioned in Lane.


My view is discussed in detail at Quran434.com. This thread is about testing YOUR view (and consequently your objections to Quran434.com's interpretation). So, let us test YOUR view, and once tested, you/I/readers can weigh up the evidence and see which meaning fits best. Hence what I wrote:

Quote
I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.

e.g.
6) [8:50], [47:27]

If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: kaltun on February 14, 2019, 06:02:34 AM
Slm ,

i read this thread , again and again ....probably due my language bariere i don't understand this discussion....

summarizing :

Burhan:
4.34 DRB is hitting ... ? even if the couples are/were gays ( man) ?

Wakas:
4.34 DRB is "to put/show forth"

i dont get it , why as an Human being with the love of God/Allah , you hit a person to correct him/her ??? even some animals dont learn from hitting.
...

we humans can communicate ( ahum the tools are there, if you cant use it, thats a whole different story ;) ) .., Allah tought our speech ....

sorry i looking to this very black and white .....
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 14, 2019, 09:17:50 AM
Slm ,

i read this thread , again and again ....probably due my language bariere i don't understand this discussion....



TRUE.

surverys shows the weakest minds are gifted to believers of flat earth lmao.

and there is an example in book the weakest house is the house of spider only if u can undertand?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: kaltun on February 14, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
TRUE.

surverys shows the weakest minds are gifted to believers of flat earth lmao.

and there is an example in book the weakest house is the house of spider only if u can undertand?

SLM IM

just wow ... not reacting on my logical explanation but at my short fall of understanding... wow..., this way you hope i will do what ... ?? stop with replying .. to get me angry .. what is the purpose  :confused:

as you can see on my writings , i am no hero on grammar ... i have to do my best to understand it... not due my intelligent , but due language .... i am set as a logical person , i mean with this , it has to be logical to me to inderstand it....

please enlight me why Allah mentioned the house of spider is the weakest  of house ??

sinds we quote Quran here i have one for you also , pls ponder and reflect it to yourself

O you who believe! (Let) not ridicule a people [of] (another) people, perhaps that they maybe better than them; and (let) not women [of] (other) women perhaps that they maybe better than them. And (do) not insult yourselves and (do) not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name (of) disobedience after the faith. And whoever (does) not repent, then those - they (are) the wrongdoers.


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 14, 2019, 11:19:29 AM
surveys shows the WEAKest minds are those who said 2+2=4? ie proven fact = false ===> flat earthers ?

LIVING wonders of UNIQUE minds.

experts are not still unanimous about the reason of that nature how possibily someone can think that unique way.

experts said  its difficult to explain ?why? someone can think that way.

i m sharing the surveys about a specific people is it any form of ridicule ?
explain how ? ?experts? are ridicule anyone they are just showing their data generated by random people ?

 :laugh:
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Mazhar on February 14, 2019, 11:38:29 AM
Quote
Kaltum stated
please enlight me why Allah mentioned the house of spider is the weakest  of house ??

The equivalence of those people who have consciously and purposely adopted perceiving for themselves as protectors, benefactors, godfathers other than Allah the Exalted is:

Like the specific She-Spider when she has purposely adopted a house.
Know the fact, the flimsiest of the houses is certainly the adopted-house of specific She-Spider.
Had they but known-realized flimsiness of their choice. [29:41]

The females of many species place the egg sac on a stalk, wraps leaves about it, attach it to a stone, or cover it with smooth silk before abandoning it. Other females guard the egg sac or carry it either in their jaws or attached to the spinnerets. If a female loses an egg sac, she makes searching movements and may pick up a pebble or a piece of paper and attach it to the spinnerets. (With thanks from Encyclopedia Britannica-Spider}

The female spider despite knowing that the piece of paper does not contain her eggs, she takes it to her "chest". And there has never been dearth of people who keep such papers/traditions/sayings void of any substance/knowledge and proof closely  to their chests and are seldom prepared to have a look on that "paper" to evaluate/weigh it if there existed anything of substance wrapped in it.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: kaltun on February 14, 2019, 11:39:11 AM
surveys shows the WEAKest minds are those who said 2+2=4? ie proven fact = false ===> flat earthers ?

LIVING wonders of UNIQUE minds.

experts are not still unanimous about the reason of that nature how possibily someone can think that unique way.

experts said  its difficult to explain ?why? someone can think that way.

i m sharing the surveys about a specific people is it any form of ridicule ?
explain how ? ?experts? are ridicule anyone they are just showing their data generated by random people ?

 :laugh:

peace bro.

what ever "expert"  :rotfl:

you cant even decently explain the verse to me , if you dont know , pls dont mentioned it , this says alot of your personality ...

you have 0% fact in your hand , yet you call it fact ....

pls dont hijack this post with belittling me.

my apologizes to burhan and Wakas. is shall not post offtopic again.

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: kaltun on February 14, 2019, 11:46:05 AM
The equivalence of those people who have consciously and purposely adopted perceiving for themselves as protectors, benefactors, godfathers other than Allah the Exalted is:

Like the specific She-Spider when she has purposely adopted a house.
Know the fact, the flimsiest of the houses is certainly the adopted-house of specific She-Spider.
Had they but known-realized flimsiness of their choice. [29:41]

The females of many species place the egg sac on a stalk, wraps leaves about it, attach it to a stone, or cover it with smooth silk before abandoning it. Other females guard the egg sac or carry it either in their jaws or attached to the spinnerets. If a female loses an egg sac, she makes searching movements and may pick up a pebble or a piece of paper and attach it to the spinnerets. (With thanks from Encyclopedia Britannica-Spider}

The female spider despite knowing that the piece of paper does not contain her eggs, she takes it to her "chest". And there has never been dearth of people who keep such papers/traditions/sayings void of any substance/knowledge and proof closely  to their chests and are seldom prepared to have a look on that "paper" to evaluate/weigh it if there existed anything of substance wrapped in it.
SLM Mazhar ,

thank you , for this , i read this before here , and also eating the male has to do with weak family ....

btw brother Mazhar can you also react to post
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610529.msg422760#msg422760


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Mazhar on February 14, 2019, 11:47:15 AM
The basic perception, meanings and signification of this Root: "ض ر ب"  as stated in Classical Lexicon of Er-R?ghib is: إيقاعُ شيءٍ على شيء:That it signifies causing a thing to fall, tumble upon or with it dislodge another thing. Lane Lexicon stated:  "accord. to Er-R?ghib, الضَّرْبُ signifies the making a thing to fall upon another thing;" [unquote]

The conceptual meanings of the Root evidently reveal that its meanings in the real-world experience will be reflected by the collocates or other words associated with it in the context.
It reflects that its effect may necessarily not be of causing hurt. It reflects an instance; an illustration or an occurrence. The most equivalent word in English vocabulary to describe the basic perception and its various uses in different semantic fields is verb "strike".

Semantic field: Strike
Enter awareness : It denotes to fall or shine on something, to make obvious;
to make something noticed;
make something to be perceived or become audible-understandable for someone;
to make some idea enter somebody's mind or occur to somebody; to penetrate or seem to go right through something; make something by stamping;
and Dislodge: to remove something away - displace; dislocate, dislodge, deform, the target with force.
Cause harm: And it signifies to hit somebody or something with a hand, tool, weapon, or other object. Obvious intention is to hurt, damage.
Moreover, support words will be required if the intention of the speaker is to indicate the instance as involving repeated strikes to reflect what is denoted by English word "beating"; punishment in which somebody is repeatedly hit.

Semantically, it relates to activity thereby its agent is sentient. An activity has predetermined objective to achieve. It has two objects between which interrelationship is created. The result or affect of activity will depend upon the manner, angle and force applied in the strike. The objective of strike can either be:
(1) creating an affect in the object that is made to fall upon other thing;
(2) purpose of striking one thing upon another can be making something else apparent that was earlier hidden because of the location of the thing struck upon;
(3) the thing by which another is truck overwhelms; and
(4) Cause harm to the thing struck upon or to expose it.

It is thus evident that the words of this Root have multiple meanings (senses) based on the context of the usage of word in an instance. One unique features of Qur?ān is that it has built in lexicon for its important words and terms. It exposes the perception and meanings of its important words by using it in different semantic fields by relationships and contrasts whereby one can perceive all its dimensions relating to substance as well accident including metaphorical aspect.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 14, 2019, 12:05:50 PM
look how beautifully brother mazhar explained it to you but same like always you still didnt get it.
 
flat earth theory based their claim at zero evidence aginst their opponents (roundearther) who are having multiple evidences in their claim noone yet successful to tackle it.
best example ?eclipses?.  :yeah:

how weak is the claim only if they can  understand ?

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 14, 2019, 05:05:31 PM
My view is very simple and I have stated it many times.

According to the oldest dictionaries DRB's literal meaning is to hit/strike but has other non-literal meanings such travel, present etc.

In the Quran the DRB has been used literally and non-literally.


To falsify my claims


There is nothing in your article that falsifies claim 1, so that passes.

For claim 2 it is only your article that disagrees. There is no translation or tafsir I know that takes the view you do for those verses. All those verses in Cat-2 have always been understood as literal.

   6) 8:50, 47:27
   8) 24:31
   12) 26:63, 2:60, 7:160
   13) 2:73
   14) 38:44
   16) 8:12
   17) 47:4
   18) 37:93

Here's a quote from reformist translation who translate 4:34 as non-literal and even they don't take the view you do regarding the Cat-2 verses.

Quote
It can be said that DaRaBa is the number-one multiple-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings; we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

? To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
? To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
? To beat: 8:50; 47:27

? To set up: 43:58; 57:13
? To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
? To take away, to ignore: 43:5
? To condemn: 2:61
? To seal, to draw over: 18:11
? To cover: 24:31 ? To explain: 13:17


So my view has been tested and it works.

So now I am at a point where I need to challenge your unique and obscure view/translation of Cat-2 verses.

Before I can falsify your claims regarding Point 6) I needed to understand exactly what you are claiming in your article. You've article is not clear. There are no falsifiable  claims in there.

But since I can't force you to clarify your position I'll continue.

The essence your of argument is as follows;
Say we know the following about Paul and John

Paul is a pacifist.
Paul is small.
John is very large.

Then we are told.

Paul hit John

Your reasoning is that since Paul is a pacifist and much smaller he can't possibly hit John. Therefore "hit" means "cited".

This is completely a nonsensical way to argue. The most you can say is that the statement could be false or a typo.

In reality Paul is quiet cable of ignoring his pacifism and overcoming his small stature to hit John.

Quran434.com Point 6)

Quote
*angels is better translated as controllers, i.e. forces in control of certain
functions/laws. There are some controllers we know about, e.g. those found in nature:
F=ma, E=mc? etc. and some we do not know about.

The is so bizarre I don't know where to begin. When you make a claim like that you need to explain in detail why. This shows a poor understanding of science for starters

The laws are descriptive not prescriptive. Nobody controls them.

For example take the natural numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ?

I can describe that as n = n + 1. You can call it Burhan's Law of Natural numbers. No angels and no controllers required. That doesn't mean the Law n=n+1 is prescribing the natural numbers. It's just simply describing them using a man-made mathematical notation.

Anyway it's doesn't matter if want to call them controllers.

Quote
In 8:50 it says if only you could see, thus clearly implying that what the controllers are doing cannot be seen.

Agree. They can't be seen by people in the current world.
 
Quote
And since it is at the time of death, then the controllers cannot be striking the physical fronts/faces and backs as this would be observable.

Why? Whether they strike the physical body or a new after life body or the metaphysical soul it's a still beating. That is the whole point of Adhab

Basically you are saying that if nobody sees it than it's not happening.

Quote
It could be suggested that at death, this is a special/unique transition phase so perhaps the controllers are indeed beating/striking but in a different form somehow, and the living simply cannot see it.

Correct!. So you just invalidated your own point. Physical punishment in the afterlife is fact in the Quran therefore angels beating disbelievers as they deliver them to hell is hardly controversial. 

Quote
It causes problems with verses such as 7:37, 16:28, 8:51, 6:93-94 in which the controllers are in communication with people being taken at death, and the ones taken are listening properly and answering, but this is highly unlikely if they are being beaten at the same time!

No it doesn't. Why highly unlikely? People can be beaten and interrogated at the same time. It's called torture.  Have you never seen mobster crime movies? The idea that all these things can't happen together, in sequence, or different point in time, or to different sets of people is a ridiculous. You are trying to create a false dichotomy to support your point.

Quote
It causes a clear problem with 6:93 when it describes the controllers as stretching/extending forth or opening their hands/powers when taking them at death saying "Bring out your souls...". This sounds unlike striking/beating, and there is no implication of this in the verse at all.

Clear problem, where? Why does every verse have to do with hell have to mention beatings?
This is not an argument, it's a false analogy (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy). Just because the verses are alike in one or more respect doesn't mean they should be alike in some other respect.

Quote
In contrast, the controllers take those who are good with a greeting of peace/salam in 16:32 and there is no mention of taking them gently for example.

Again, it's a false analogy. Why should it say gently?
 
You really expect it to be like this;

Quote
The ones whom the angels take in death, [being] good and pure; [the angels] will say, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise for what you used to do. We are not going to kick your ass like we do the disbelievers in verse 8:50."

The comparison actually contrasts the difference between the treatment of believers to non-believers when angels come to take them. The good are greeted with nice words and the bad get a beat down. 

Quote
That is not to say it cannot mean "beat", it theoretically could, but it is not a particularly sound translation when cross-referenced.

Every translator of Quran including progressive & reformist disagrees with you.

Quote
Whatever the controllers are doing it is to their "fronts and backs" and this creates an imagery of a complete surrounding, coming at them from all directions, i.e. there is no escape

Again only in your mind.
 
Quote
The only other occurrence of the exact same form "yadriboona" is in 73:20 in which it means journey or go/move about

There is an object preposition "Fi" in 73:20 to tell you it's non-literal. The comparison actually supports my point.

Quote
As a side note, in M. Asad's notes, he says the early commentator Razi saw this phrase
as an allegory: "They have utter darkness behind them and utter darkness before
them", suggesting he did not agree with the commonly stated understanding of
beating/striking literally.

A weak argument from authority. As mentioned I have dozens of translations and tafsirs saying it?s literal.

Finally something you said in your last post

Quote
If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

So because you can't take the temperature of hell-fire it's not real. This is the dumbest thing I have heard. You are basically saying if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it then it didn't really happen.

Look at those verses those again. It's meant to be a painful exit form this world. How is a bunch of angels moving to their front and back going "boooh" a painful chastisement.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 15, 2019, 04:28:15 AM
It's interesting how you claim logical fallacies in my work yet you commit them openly. Sometimes right next to each other, quote: "A weak argument from authority. As mentioned I have dozens of translations and tafsirs saying it?s literal."

In any case, let's concentrate on The Quran's use. You will note in your lengthy reply not once did you quote any verses which agree with your interpretation of  6) 8:50, 47:27.

Also, you will note, quote of yours: "Physical punishment in the afterlife is fact in the Quran therefore angels beating disbelievers as they deliver them to hell is hardly controversial."

Quote from Quran434.com "If this is indeed a beating/striking causing pain in some way, then this would be the only example in The Quran of an explicit punishment between death and the 'day of obligation/judgement/requital/due'."

Since you never cited any Quran verse I can only assume you have zero corroborating evidence from Quran for your view.

Note, that doesn't mean I have disproved your view. Readers can make up their own minds.

#####

So let's move onto the next: 8 ) is possibly no category, and 12) we both agree is strike/hit, so we can leave these for now. So, now we come to 13) 2:73, which I discuss a lot, some quotes summarising the main points:

The previous stories in this chapter are separated by "ith / when / إذ", and are all self-contained lessons. The story of the cow is independent of the story before it and the one following it: that of the murdered soul.
The only masculine in the context [2:72-73] are those who committed the murder and thereafter accused each other, hiding the truth. The only feminine in the context is the murdered soul, and the act of murder in which they accused each other in (i.e. this is the closest preceding feminine to ببعضها / bibadiha).


Quote
To conclude, the understanding presented here fits the grammar, the Arabic, Classical Arabic meanings, logic, cross-referencing the subject of murder, specifically, that there is life in al qisas/equivalence (the law of just recompense) for those who use their intellect, 2:179, and provides us with a self-contained explanation.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 16, 2019, 07:16:08 AM
   
Quote
It's interesting how you claim logical fallacies in my work yet you commit them openly. Sometimes right next to each other, quote: "A weak argument from authority. As mentioned I have dozens of translations and tafsirs saying it?s literal."
   
   When did I say this was a fallacy? I said your argument from authority was weak, as every authority on the Quran disagrees with your translation of 8:50 & 47:2. So as you say, lets stick to the Quran.
   
   
Quote
Since you never cited any Quran verse I can only assume you have zero corroborating evidence from Quran for your view.
   
   Again you are shifting the burden of proof. It is you who is making the claim that the established translations of 8:50 & 47:2 create a contradiction.
   
   You can claim a;


You have done neither.
   
I'll do a Wakas and ask you to show me a verse that clearly says Angels will not beat disbelievers before DOJ.
   
   On the contrary the Quran hints DOJ is not the only punishment. It may not apply to everyone but there is a punishment before that (52:47), their souls are taken violently (79:1) and they will be exposed to the fire day and night  (40:46). Noah's people were sent to the fire before DOJ (71:25).

   52:45-47 So leave them until they meet their Day in which they will be struck insensible. The Day their plan will not avail them at all, nor will they be helped. And indeed, for those who have wronged is a punishment before that, but most of them do not know.
   
   79:1 By those [angels] who extract with violence, And [by] those who remove with ease
   
   40:45-46 So Allah protected him from the evils they plotted, and the people of Pharaoh were enveloped by the worst of punishment -
   The Fire, they are exposed to it morning and evening. And the Day the Hour appears [it will be said], "Make the people of Pharaoh enter the severest punishment."
   
   71:25 Because of their sins they were drowned and put into the Fire, and they found not for themselves besides Allah [any] helpers.
   
   Your view isn't plausible as there are general and specific instances of people who have annoyed God so much that they will get some of their punishment straight away before DOJ.
   
   Point 13)
   
   You've just quoted Asad verbatim. If you had paraphrased and somehow made a connection to your translation then it would have been helpful. His translation doesn't agree with yours.
   
   For 2:73 Can you tell me first which verses logically contradict it and then which verses contradict it theologically, or do you just have a problem with the sentence structure.
   
   
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The previous stories in this chapter are separated by "ith / when / إذ", and are all self-contained lessons. The story of the cow is independent of the story before it and the one following it: that of the murdered soul.
   
   This is a baseless claim and not consistent with the rest of the Quran. Using Idh is the absolute trademark quranic style of telling different parts of the same story. It's a Time Adverb, it's meant to connect the stories through passage of time.
   
   
   
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The only masculine in the context [2:72-73] are those who committed the murder and thereafter accused each other, hiding the truth. The only feminine in the context is the murdered soul, and the act of murder in which they accused each other in (i.e. this is the closest preceding feminine to ببعضها / bibadiha).
   
   You are saying that because Nafs is feminine and the verb has masculine object pronoun idribuhu can't refer to the soul.
   
   Yes correct, you can't physically hit a soul. The corpse is male and real and that's why a masculine object pronoun is used to denote a literal meaning of DRB. A feminine pronoun on DRB would make usage non-literal.
   
   Is your translation that God ordered the corpse to cite/point out the murder? Can you give your translation in full please?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Mazhar on February 16, 2019, 09:18:56 AM
Quote
You are saying that because Nafs is feminine and the verb has masculine object pronoun idribuhu can't refer to the soul.
   
   Yes correct, you can't physically hit a soul. The corpse is male and real and that's why a masculine object pronoun is used to denote a literal meaning of DRB. A feminine pronoun on DRB would make usage non-literal.

2:281
وَٱتَّقُوا۟ یَوۡمࣰا تُرۡجَعُونَ فِیهِ إِلَى ٱللَّهِۖ ثُمَّ تُوَفَّىٰ كُلُّ نَفۡسࣲ مَّا كَسَبَتۡ وَهُمۡ لَا یُظۡلَمُونَ
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Mazhar on February 16, 2019, 09:24:42 AM
Quote
You are saying that because Nafs is feminine and the verb has masculine object pronoun idribuhu can't refer to the soul.
   
   Yes correct, you can't physically hit a soul. The corpse is male and real and that's why a masculine object pronoun is used to denote a literal meaning of DRB. A feminine pronoun on DRB would make usage non-literal.

Physical hitting needs an object which is to be hit and needs an instrument with which the subject will hit the object,
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 16, 2019, 09:59:19 AM
physical actions vs chemical actions lol.

a person hitting someone with rod will leave a mark on body for few days.
but the mark in mind/heart will stays forever.

same thing happen with words of ?speech? some words work like swords they will not hurt you physically but mentally we get disturbed.

more u guys think about it more the findings of wakas getting fit with the take what he bring on wife beating.

i think author also wanted to tell us never say a nasty thing to a ?lady? even shez is not good try to handle her with care becoz most of the times care and gentleness turn/change the behaviour/ thinking of a person.
 
author is actually telling people having a polite nature while treating their ladies.
in old times killing a women on cheating was very normal, even today sometimes out of anger people reported killing their spouses accidently.

author is advising us not to hit someone with ?rod? or ?words? (for our own good).
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: hawk99 on February 16, 2019, 12:18:22 PM
[39:15] Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they
whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.

Peace brother Burhan, do you include context in your analysis?

[4:35]  And if you fear dissension/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore
between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator
from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it
between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things].
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 16, 2019, 04:57:38 PM
peace burhan,

Thank you for your reply.

Again you are shifting the burden of proof. It is you who is making the claim that the established translations of 8:50 & 47:2 create a contradiction.

1) I never once used the word "contradiction" in my analysis of these verses.
2) I have already laid out my view of X and evidence for X. You are saying it's Y. Well, let's examine your evidence for Y, so we can compare to see which option fits best.

 
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On the contrary the Quran hints DOJ is not the only punishment. It may not apply to everyone but there is a punishment before that (52:47), their souls are taken violently (79:1) and they will be exposed to the fire day and night  (40:46). Noah's people were sent to the fire before DOJ (71:25).

52:45-47 it seems "duna" commonly means "other than":
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dwn#(52:47:5)

79:1 says nothing about malaika nor souls

40:46 doesn't say before, and likely refers to the greatest punishment they will get.

71:25 is probably the best counter-example you have, although some take it as, quote Asad: "Lit., "and were made to enter the fire" - the past tense indicating the inevitability of the suffering yet to come (Zamakhshari).".

#####

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You've just quoted Asad verbatim. If you had paraphrased and somehow made a connection to your translation then it would have been helpful. His translation doesn't agree with yours.

His main objection coincides with mine. I happen to think I improved upon his translation by connecting the dots better according to the Arabic, which I discuss.
   
Quote
For 2:73 Can you tell me first which verses logically contradict it and then which verses contradict it theologically, or do you just have a problem with the sentence structure.

I have already discussed what verses, please re-read.
 
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This is a baseless claim and not consistent with the rest of the Quran. Using Idh....

Anyone can read the context for themselves and see each is a self-contained story, separated by idh. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why these lessons are connected. Is your view that after slaughtering the cow, a murder occurred in close proximity to the dead cow and those disputing about it were doing so beside the dead cow and murdered corpse?

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The corpse is male and real and that's why a masculine object pronoun is used to denote a literal meaning of DRB
.

Now we come to the crux of the matter. You have inserted a baseless claim into the Arabic to make your rendition work. In Arabic, like probably all languages, a pronoun is used as a reference to something/someone discussed in the past/context. To give any credibility to your claim you will have to provide at least one similar example in Quran wherein it uses a pronoun to clearly refer to an unmentioned object in the past context, i.e. without which the sentence wouldn't make sense.

Further, you will note in my analysis, I point out that if one were to interpret it as you do it doesn't make sense.

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Is your translation that God ordered the corpse to cite/point out the murder? Can you give your translation in full please?

I have no idea how anyone can think the above is my view after reading what I wrote. I discuss in detail my understanding. Please re-read.

"cite, point out, assign, indicate..... him with some of it (the murder)"
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 17, 2019, 03:27:28 AM
peace!

4:34 واضربوهن wa-iḍribuhunna/and shuns (ignores) ye them (f/p)

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
عنه ↓ اضرب signifies, (S, Msb,) or signifies also, (TA,) and (Msb, TA) so does ضَرَبَ عنه, (Msb, K, TA,) [the latter app. for ضَرَبَ نَفْسَهُ عَنْهُ,] (assumed tropical:) He turned away from, avoided, shunned, or left, him, or it; (S * Msb, K * TA; *) namely, a person, (TA,) or a thing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6p6rbyLt/ch4v33-39.jpg)
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 17, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
With regards to wife beating, I think burhan has a point, at least to an extent. However we look at this verse, wife beating just at least seem a probable interpretation as "separation" or "citing". This alone is problematic due to its implication on the Qur'an as a detailed, unambiguous book.

Now, consider a Muslim in Baghdad in the 10th century where wife beating was norm - provided no injury is caused, how likely is this Muslim to interpret "wa dhribuhunna" as "separate or cite"?

The major impetus to question the wife beating interpretation is contemporary social norm. We've socially evolved to see wife beating as domestic abuse whether it is done with a tooth pick or chew stick and so are driven to re-interpret the verse.

The early Muslims did not have such impetus. This again is problematic as its implies that cultural and generational differences significantly impact interpretation. Which brings us to very crucial questions;

Is an objective reading of the Qur'an possible? Isn't our approach to the Qur'an too one dimensional and bugged with confirmation bias?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 17, 2019, 08:29:21 AM
With regards to wife beating, I think burhan has a point, at least to an extent. However we look at this verse, wife beating just at least seem a probable interpretation as "separation" or "citing". This alone is problematic due to its implication on the Qur'an as a detailed, unambiguous book.

Now, consider a Muslim in Baghdad in the 10th century where wife beating was norm - provided no injury is caused, how likely is this Muslim to interpret "wa dhribuhunna" as "separate or cite"?

The major impetus to question the wife beating interpretation is contemporary social norm. We've socially evolved to see wife beating as domestic abuse whether it is done with a tooth pick or chew stick and so are driven to re-interpret the verse.

The early Muslims did not have such impetus. This again is problematic as its implies that cultural and generational differences significantly impact interpretation. Which brings us to very crucial questions;

Is an objective reading of the Qur'an possible? Isn't our approach to the Qur'an too one dimensional and bugged with confirmation bias?

IMMORALITY always considered as immorality regardless of time/space/tradition.

beating someone in any case is not a solution at all. (apart from self defence)

whatever those stupids were doing in 10th century was wrong and still wrong.
same like so called stupids of isis doing there atm.

We made bullshit traditions for our own advantage at different eras and we changed those traditions when we need a change.

God is not human his laws works like errorless/immaculate.

now we have a list of beating.

parents (beat) their kids
brothes beat their sisters
uncles beats their nephews
teacher beats their students
teacher of Quran(molvee) beat their learners
.

i didnt add husband in it due ro a reason.

now in this list what is very very common in muslim asian countries bring more packages of beating here we have another list.

police beat a person upon investigation
police beat a person before investigation.
police beat all those people who lives/resides with criminal.
police beat people like its a GOOD deed  :rotfl: 

if u compare that police with the police of uk u feel pity for those who r getting served by those corrupt police officers.


OLDER advantage

whoever is elder by age already got a license of beating someone under his age
(family) people give permission to elders ( freaking hell).

beating by the caretakers of fruit and veg

people who are the so called owners of fruits gardens

kids when try to eat the blessing of God (fruits) they mostly get caught and now trial started for these poor kids lol.

BEATING how and why ?
and then they give the examples of beating by God. they said what if we beat someone as a tradition God does same to immoral people. and God have us permission to beat.

and hence in wars do beat the shit out of enemies rape their womens, steal their wealth, burn down houses. when u ask why u doing this?

they said becoz our God is doing same things what if we do it?

wordly kings forcefully say u to bow down and sujood physically if not then beat them with hunter? why u doing this ?

becoz God is doing same thing of someone dnt prostrate him he will cast him to hellfire and they said u r lucky we are not rhrowing you to fire just beating u lightly lol.

questions is how long this BEAT stupidity will leave impression on people what cause the victims  to become hunter one day most of the cases serial killer/rapist is effected by beating of SOMEONE in their childhood.

THE most hateful beating is step father beats to the kids out of jealousy.

 
 
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 17, 2019, 08:37:55 AM
Peace All.
 What is a Muslim to GOD according to Qoran?

If we want to really follow Qoran, then that is the basis on which to start. i.e What does GOD really wants us to do /be like/give an example of/follow/understand from instructions....

So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic questions -About how to be/behave as a human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

GOD talks to all sorts of people in Qoran- Ya Ayuha? believer, hypocrite, disbeliever, waverer, ...etc-.

So it depends who we are and what we strive to be ? Qoran caters for all ,it can even be ignored all together .It is there to be taken by anyone who wants to make of it as they please or leave it be.

So I will rephrase my question of 4:34 as follows:
What should a true believer in Qoran take from this verse? To beat the wife? Really?

Then we should go through the traits of what a believer is and see, it will contradicts it for sure.
First the verse is giving options ? Should a true believer go beyond the second option?

For me the verse that settles most things is this one:
 "Ittabihu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum"---Follow the BEST PATH instructed/revealed to you by your Lord-
So what is the best option in the verse? To beat the wife?
Of course some will say "But Qoran says beat them", Why does Qoran even mention "DRB" knowing that some people will take it as "beat the wife"?
Exactly my point, which people are we talking about? The true believer of Qoran?

...And so on about many "hot potato" issues that people are not comfortable with in Qoran.
 What ever it may mean ,it should not come to it if the verse options are followed with sincerity. Try it in real life and see for yourself. As a true believer, you may even prevent the situation arising in 4:34 and there is no need for any of it!!!

Now that does not mean we should ignore the interpretation of the word "drb", by allmeans find out.
 But if I can make sure it should not apply to me by "choosing the best option" and trying my best to make it work with all concerned it helps.
Anyway, Qoran caters for all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 17, 2019, 11:34:52 AM
IMMORALITY always considered as immorality regardless of time/space/tradition.

beating someone in any case is not a solution at all. (apart from self defence)

whatever those stupids were doing in 10th century was wrong and still wrong.
same like so called stupids of isis doing there atm.

We made bullshit traditions for our own advantage at different eras and we changed those traditions when we need a change.

God is not human his laws works like errorless/immaculate.

now we have a list of beating.

parents (beat) their kids
brothes beat their sisters
uncles beats their nephews
teacher beats their students
teacher of Quran(molvee) beat their learners
.

i didnt add husband in it due ro a reason.

now in this list what is very very common in muslim asian countries bring more packages of beating here we have another list.

police beat a person upon investigation
police beat a person before investigation.
police beat all those people who lives/resides with criminal.
police beat people like its a GOOD deed  :rotfl: 

if u compare that police with the police of uk u feel pity for those who r getting served by those corrupt police officers.


OLDER advantage

whoever is elder by age already got a license of beating someone under his age
(family) people give permission to elders ( freaking hell).

beating by the caretakers of fruit and veg

people who are the so called owners of fruits gardens

kids when try to eat the blessing of God (fruits) they mostly get caught and now trial started for these poor kids lol.

BEATING how and why ?
and then they give the examples of beating by God. they said what if we beat someone as a tradition God does same to immoral people. and God have us permission to beat.

and hence in wars do beat the shit out of enemies rape their womens, steal their wealth, burn down houses. when u ask why u doing this?

they said becoz our God is doing same things what if we do it?

wordly kings forcefully say u to bow down and sujood physically if not then beat them with hunter? why u doing this ?

becoz God is doing same thing of someone dnt prostrate him he will cast him to hellfire and they said u r lucky we are not rhrowing you to fire just beating u lightly lol.

questions is how long this BEAT stupidity will leave impression on people what cause the victims  to become hunter one day most of the cases serial killer/rapist is effected by beating of SOMEONE in their childhood.

THE most hateful beating is step father beats to the kids out of jealousy.

Wow. This is really funny. I love how you lighten the mood with humor. I still recall your comedic row with jkhan and kaltun in my previous thread on Geocentricity and Flat earth.

Any way, I think you forget something in all your condemnation of wife beating as immoral regardless of time and place.

That is, immorality is unfortunately not fully an absolute term. There are people till date that see no immorality in wife beating. I mean educated and privileged people that speak of civility and ethics. Take Sam Gerrans a Muslim convert and Qur'an translator as example.

Sam Gerrans absolutely reject hadith, yet he insist on translating 4:34 as wife beating. He justifies this on his YouTube channel and go so far to mention that some women admit a desire for a man that can hit them. If women could admit such a thing, Sam reasoned, then perhaps that explains it is not immoral & thus God could endorse it.

Also, remember Rashad Khalifa? He translated the popular phrase as wife beating.

What do you think?
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: centi50 on February 17, 2019, 12:21:48 PM
Salam to be all,

I don't see how literally beating the wife will make things better, infact it will be much worse.

In Yemen for example it's considered as really bad thing to beat any woman let alone your wife, and if you husband did beat your wife and her family knows you be taken to task like they will take their daughter and for you6to bring her back they will fine you with you to bring a set of gold or some will want you to bring a whole cow so you can take back your wife.

So you see actually beating a woman becomes more of a problem than solution

God bless you all
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 17, 2019, 12:27:58 PM
Peace All.
 What is a Muslim to GOD according to Qoran?

If we want to really follow Qoran, then that is the basis on which to start. i.e What does GOD really wants us to do /be like/give an example of/follow/understand from instructions....

So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic questions -About how to be/behave as a human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

I thought the Qur'an suppose to answer these questions. The Qur'an invites people to it without any prerequisite.

Quote
GOD talks to all sorts of people in Qoran- Ya Ayuha? believer, hypocrite, disbeliever, waverer, ...etc-.

So it depends who we are and what we strive to be ? Qoran caters for all ,it can even be ignored all together .It is there to be taken by anyone who wants to make of it as they please or leave it be.

So I will rephrase my question of 4:34 as follows:
What should a true believer in Qoran take from this verse? To beat the wife? Really?

Then we should go through the traits of what a believer is and see, it will contradicts it for sure.
First the verse is giving options ? Should a true believer go beyond the second option?

Why not? If it is ordained, a true believer could as well apply it after step 1 and 2.  fails. Why would Qur'an give the believers an option for an undesirable act?

Quote
For me the verse that settles most things is this one:
 "Ittabihu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum"---Follow the BEST PATH instructed/revealed to you by your Lord-
So what is the best option in the verse? To beat the wife?
Of course some will say "But Qoran says beat them", Why does Qoran even mention "DRB" knowing that some people will take it as "beat the wife"?
Exactly my point, which people are we talking about? The true believer of Qoran?

Good logic here but it is not without weakness. Some of those people who take it as "beat the wife" really could be true believers. This is because as I've pointed out peoples' interpretation of the scriptures is heavily influenced by their culture and time. It may have nothing to do with being a true believer. Every Muslim sees themselves as true believers, even ISIS.

Quote
...And so on about many "hot potato" issues that people are not comfortable with in Qoran.
 What ever it may mean ,it should not come to it if the verse options are followed with sincerity. Try it in real life and see for yourself. As a true believer, you may even prevent the situation arising in 4:34 and there is no need for any of it!!!

It all boils down to individual. For some couple, it never get as far as hitting the wife. But for others it does. I know of a religious Muslim man, Imam and scholar who hit his wife.

Quote
Now that does not mean we should ignore the interpretation of the word "drb", by allmeans find out.
 But if I can make sure it should not apply to me by "choosing the best option" and trying my best to make it work with all concerned it helps.
Anyway, Qoran caters for all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

 Peace..
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 18, 2019, 03:58:38 AM
Peace Neptin.

You want some specific answers that apply to all?
Fine, then it means "beat the wife" if it makes some happy . Regardless of what others give as meaning, some will not budge  and they will justify it to "beat the wife" or ridicule Qoran.
So does that mean it is GOD s fault for putting words that need pondering to bring people s character/convictions to the open?

Or what do you mean by, quote:

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

It is Qoran s fault for having the word "DRB" in it?
Or is it the person  that is making the decision to "hit the wife"  fault?
Either way one can make what they want from multimeaning words of Qoran. And you know they are plenty of them.

Whoever wants to beat his wife, it is nothing to do with me, or if you ponder Qoran properly,nothing to do with Qoran either.

If others see problems with Qoran, I do not. I only see solutions.
In fact I see problems with them.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 18, 2019, 04:15:09 AM
Peace Neptin.
 I put this quote of yours in a separate post  if you do not mind:

"I thought the Qur'an suppose to answer these questions. The Qur'an invites people to it without any prerequisite".

 Does it not? Qoran indeed answers them questions for me. You are welcome to study it brother and find out if it does for you.
 Or is your statement ironic?
Apologies , but the statement required the blunt answer above

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 18, 2019, 07:22:34 AM
peace burhan,

Thank you for your reply.

you are welcome.

Quote
1) I never once used the word "contradiction" in my analysis of these verses.

I know :) just wanted to get it on record.

Quote

52:45-47 it seems "duna" commonly means "other than":
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dwn#(52:47:5)

79:1 says nothing about malaika nor souls

40:46 doesn't say before, and likely refers to the greatest punishment they will get.

71:25 is probably the best counter-example you have, although some take it as, quote Asad: "Lit., "and were made to enter the fire" - the past tense indicating the inevitability of the suffering yet to come (Zamakhshari).".

Those are fair criticisms.

Quote
His main objection coincides with mine.

Yes I get that part, but I don't understand your translation.


Quote
Is your view that after slaughtering the cow, a murder occurred in close proximity to the dead cow and those disputing about it were doing so beside the dead cow and murdered corpse?

Do you know what the name of the chapter is?

Obviously, It's not the same cow. Just as it's not the same cow in 2:54. It's not even the same set of people. That is the whole point of Idh. It connects stories that are about Moses, his people, and their relationship to cows separated by time.

The chapter is called the The Cow.

2:54 A calf is take for worship
2:67 A cow is commanded to be slaughtered.
2:73 Part of A sacrificed cow is used to identify the murderers.

Not the same cow.

Is this your translation of the two words idribuhu bibadiha?

Quote
"cite, point out, assign, indicate..... him with some of it (the murder)"

Firstly, the it possessive pronoun is a feminine it/her in Arabic. Are you saying murder (qatal) is feminine? It's not, it's masculine.

Second, so God asked everybody to point out the murderer to expose the murderer. They were doing that already. How did God add value to the process?

There is a you-plural subject pronoun but a it-singular/him object pronoun on idrib. The object of DRB is a single person or thing.

Even your English translation doesn't convey the message that the blame is to be shared.
It reads as, "assign a single person with some of the murder."
 
I can see your predicament. You are hamstrung by the Arabic and you simply can't produce the English translation without adding new words to the Arabic. By all means use brackets to clarify the subject/object - you still won't be able to produce a translation, without resorting to your tafsir.
 
you strike him (corpse) with some of it (part of a cow) is a perfectly clear translation that doesn't require paragraphs upon paragraphs to explain it.

Also the next part about resurrection fits perfectly where as you have to then twist it's meaning too.

This whole episode is supposed to be a miracle. A victim rises from the dead to accuse his murderers.

Your version is just mundane.

I don't want to get off-topic but the Quranic text we are using could be wrong. We know many versions of the text exist with not just vowel difference but consonants, gender and order differences. Sometimes a different word is used. E.g Kasir instead of Kabir in the alcohol verse. This kind of can't-see-the-wood-for-the-trees analysis makes us both look silly.






Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 18, 2019, 09:22:04 AM

Is this your translation of the two words idribuhu bibadiha?

It's not just two words, literally it says: DRB him/it with some (of) her/it. In my translation for DRB I gave several options which have similar meanings: "cite, point out, assign, indicate...".

Quote
Are you saying murder (qatal) is feminine? It's not, it's masculine.

No, I simply used what The Quran is using as the reference, which I discuss (i.e. fiha). Re-read what I wrote and see usage of terms in 5:32.

Quote
Second, so God asked everybody to point out the murderer to expose the murderer. They were doing that already. How did God add value to the process?

It seems you either dont understand what the verse is saying or my analysis of the verse. I make it perfectly clear what is going on:

Quote
When we re-read the context of 2:72-73, it becomes obvious the perpetrators were accusing each other (i.e. pointing the finger at each other, so to speak) to conceal the truth that they did it, so God was to bring forth what they were concealing: so We said "point out him with some of it (the murder)". The only ones doing the pointing/accusing were the guilty. Thus, whomever of them (i.e. of the ones accused) was pointed out by the others also accused was assigned some part/responsibility of the murder. In this way, they could not escape what they had done, and indeed, God exposed them and brought out what they were concealing. The end result was that they took collective responsibility, each of him a part. Sharing of a sin/crime if a group were responsible is mentioned elsewhere in The Quran, e.g. 24:11.

Quote
I can see your predicament. You are hamstrung by the Arabic and you simply can't produce the English translation without adding new words to the Arabic.

My translation is simple and easy. The brackets are there to help the English reader unfamiliar with what the Arabic is conveying:

"cite him (i.e. each individual) with some of it (the murder, which they were disputing in)"

Quote
Your version is just mundane.

LOL. You cant even admit it makes perfect sense and is what every civilised society does these days, i.e. assigns part of the crime/blame to each individual involved in that crime. I guess to you it is just one big coincidence it fits.

Quote
Also the next part about resurrection fits perfectly where as you have to then twist it's meaning too.

No twisting. You probably didn't bother to read the references I gave.

Quote
This whole episode is supposed to be a miracle.

"miracle" is not mentioned, that is your interpretation.

Quote
I don't want to get off-topic but the Quranic text we are using could be wrong.

Finally we get to your achilles heel. When I asked you for a Qurqanic example for what you are claiming in 2:73 you didn't provide any and now you say the above. So, let's be clear, for your interpretation to work the Quran text we have must be wrong.

Interesting. 
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 18, 2019, 11:47:39 AM
Peace Neptin.

You want some specific answers that apply to all?
Fine, then it means "beat the wife" if it makes some happy . Regardless of what others give as meaning, some will not budge  and they will justify it to "beat the wife" or ridicule Qoran.
So does that mean it is GOD s fault for putting words that need pondering to bring people s character/convictions to the open?

Sure Qur'an 4:34 does brings out motives and character of the reader. I do not dispute.

My point, and the point you're missing is that Qur'an 4:34 also does prove that an objective reading of the Qur'an is near impossible and that the interpretation of the text is deeply influenced by the reader's culture and generation.

Your assumption that any fair minded Muslim reader of the Qur'an will not support wife beating undermine the influence of the prevailing culture and norm on the Muslims' interpretation of Quran.

Quote
Or what do you mean by, quote:

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

OK. What I mean is that - Will rejecting the wife beating translation and moving on with your life and doing your own path with regards to your wife be easy? Especially knowing fully well that Muslims out there persist with the wife beating translation and so there are plenty of wives who have been beaten in the name of this verse.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 18, 2019, 12:11:33 PM
"cite him (i.e. each individual) with some of it (the murder, which they were disputing in)"

The Arabic for "cite him" and "cite each individual" is very different.
Even in English "cite him" can never mean "cite each individual".

"forgive him" can't mean "forgive each individual"
"pay him" can't mean "pay each individual"

Using your methodology any sentence can be re-interpreted as anything. Let's change every verb that has a singular possessive pronoun to mean "each individual".

You would have to use "kul" = each, or look at the construction of 2:76 بَعْضُهُمْ إِلَىٰ بَعْضٍ
meaning "one another".  There are many other examples
http://openburhan.net/ob.php?word=%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%B6%D9%87%D9%85

 نظر بعضهم إلى بعض

Look at each other

وأقبل بعضهم على بعض

Turn to one another

18:19 ليتساءلوا بينهم

Question one another

For you interpretation  to work;

a) Give me the Arabic using an object pronoun on the verb for when you want to cite one person?
b) Show me another verse in the Quran where a singular masculine possessive pronoun is used to imply an action of the verb on multiple people?

Quote
Finally we get to your achilles heel. When I asked you for a Qurqanic example for what you are claiming in 2:73 you didn't provide any and now you say the above. So, let's be clear, for your interpretation to work the Quran text we have must be wrong.

How is it my Achilles heel if I clearly stated it's off-topic, criticizing all such analysis when nobody can even be sure of which text out of the 30 odd versions is the correct one. We may find a version that say la udribuhunna in 4:34 and that would make both of us look silly. 

If 4:34 never existed I bet you'd never have re-translated the cat-2 verses. Think about that.

Quote
Now we come to the crux of the matter. You have inserted a baseless claim into the Arabic to make your rendition work. In Arabic, like probably all languages, a pronoun is used as a reference to something/someone discussed in the past/context. To give any credibility to your claim you will have to provide at least one similar example in Quran wherein it uses a pronoun to clearly refer to an unmentioned object in the past context, i.e. without which the sentence wouldn't make sense.

Who said it's unmentioned. What an odd thing to say. A murder usually results in a dead body.

What if I produce an example, it won't change your mind. I think I've posted enough for people to make up their own mind.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 18, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
My point, and the point you're missing is that Qur'an 4:34 also does prove that an objective reading of the Qur'an is near impossible and that the interpretation of the text is deeply influenced by the reader's culture and generation.

Every generation of humans looks at the previous and is horrified by some of the accepted norms. The next generation will look at some of our actions that we think are in accordance with the Quran and will be horrified. They will then have to reinterpret.

When slavery was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When misogyny was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When homosexuality was a sin the Quran did not contradict it. Now that we are becoming more acceptable of it we are seeing the new interpretations.
One day people will claim Quran was a champion of gay rights just as it is now a champion of women's rights.
Tomorrow, we will take a different view on another topic and Quranists will rush out with new translations and claim 2019 Quranists had it wrong.

Neptin, sadly no one here will see your point.

     












Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 18, 2019, 12:37:02 PM
Peace Neptin.
 I put this quote of yours in a separate post  if you do not mind:

"I thought the Qur'an suppose to answer these questions. The Qur'an invites people to it without any prerequisite".

 Does it not? Qoran indeed answers them questions for me. You are welcome to study it brother and find out if it does for you.
 Or is your statement ironic?
Apologies , but the statement required the blunt answer above

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Here is what you said;

Quote
So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic
questions -About how to be/behave as a
human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

Perhaps am wrong but I feel you are asking us to take a step from Qur'an for a while and determine the trait of a true believer. But my question was rhetorical as I don't see the need for what you ask.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 18, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
Peace Neptin.
I am not asking anyone to do anything apart from study the Qoran deeply. Look at all the verses and context.

So if you think 4:34 is instructing to beat the wife,explain how to do it ,with what and how many times?
Or do you expect Qoran to give the freedom  how to carry out this beating?

Since "DRB" has many other meanings,why should we not try out other than beating to see if it fits?

May be you are looking at what traditional Muslims do and make out of Qoran and  this is affecting your judgement of the words of Qoran.?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 18, 2019, 08:08:40 PM
Peace Neptin.
I am not asking anyone to do anything apart from study the Qoran deeply. Look at all the verses and context.

So if you think 4:34 is instructing to beat the wife,explain how to do it ,with what and how many times?
Or do you expect Qoran to give the freedom  how to carry out this beating?

Since "DRB" has many other meanings,why should we not try out other than beating to see if it fits?

May be you are looking at what traditional Muslims do and make out of Qoran and  this is affecting your judgement of the words of Qoran.?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace. I have to admit that I do look at traditional interpretation. I think it is important to listen to every side of the issue. That said, the wife beating interpretation is not merely from traditionalist perspective.

You must be aware that prominent advocate of Qur'an alone or God Alone like Rashad Khalifa, Asad Sirohey, Sam Gerrans translated the verse as literally "Strike them". From my own observations both translators, especially Rashad did their best to study the Qur'an deeply.

I do indeed, consider 'separate' or 'cite' to be probable interpretation and I'll never hit my wife in the name of 4:34, nor will I advise any man to hit his. But I'll at least conceed my favorite interpretation could be wrong and that the Qur'an may imply literal wife beating.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: huruf on February 19, 2019, 01:41:59 AM
In fact as it turns out in none of the cases of daraba in the Qur'an is hit the only meaning nor the best meaning or most fitting.

In 4.34 it is just ludicruous. Nobody has done anything wrong.
Believers are being addressed, believers in general, females and males. It is believing people who is being addressed, not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person masculine plural, just as women who are mentionned as third person feminine plural, but the addressee is second person plural retorical gender, that is, inclusive gender, the second person generic plual is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, beliebers in general are addressed all along.

The whole idiocy of of this aya being taken as tellen men to do something to women is an insult to rammar, common sense and the logic of the whole aya. If nobody has done anything wrong, how can anybody speak in terms of punishment rebuke or whatever.

It is absolutely discouraging when one sees people, suposedly belieeving people and supposedly educated people or people who want to understand and fail to see the most elementary grammar and most elementary logic.

So who is going to hit who because the people fears that some females may do something, but nohting has been done?

Some here speak about grammar, but grammar tells you that what you interpret is absolute nonsense. Some might like the Qur'an to say nonsense so they feel vindicated in their prejudices, but the fact is that it does not.


This is absolutely depressing.



Salaam
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Noon waalqalami on February 19, 2019, 01:54:00 AM
2:54 A calf is take for worship
2:67 A cow is commanded to be slaughtered.
2:73 Part of A sacrificed cow is used to identify the murderers.

you strike him (corpse) with some of it (part of a cow) is a perfectly clear translation that doesn't require paragraphs upon paragraphs to explain it.

peace, separate episodes واذ wa-idh not واذا wa-idha e.g.

2:11 واذا wa-idha/and when (time adverb; present/future) قىل stated لهم to them لا not تفسدوا thou corrupt ye of فى in الارض the land ?

2:30 واذ wa-idh/and when (time adverb; separate episode) ?
2:34 واذ and when ?
2:49 واذ and when ?
2:50 واذ and when ?
2:51 واذ and when ?
2:53 واذ and when ?
2:54 واذ and when ?
2:55 واذ and when ?
2:58 واذ and when ?
2:60 واذ and when استسقى ask drink موسى moses لقومه for folk his فقلنا so said we of اضرب iḍ'rib بعصاك with staff your الحجر the stone ?
2:61 واذ and when ?
2:63 واذ and when ?
2:67 واذ and when ...
2:72-73 واذ and when قتلتم slew you نفسا soul of فادرتم so disputed you فىها therein والله and the god مخرج evictor ما what كنتم be you تكتمون concealing فقلنا so said we of اضربوه iḍ'ribūhu ببعضها bibaḍiha كذلك like such ىحىى gives life الله the god الموتى the dead وىرىكم and shows you اىته signs his لعلكم perhaps you تعقلون understanding
2:83 واذ and when ?
2:84 واذ and when ?
2:93 واذ and when ?
2:124 واذ and when ?
2:125 واذ and when ?
2:126 واذ and when ?
2:127 واذ and when ?
2:260 واذ and when ?

I don't want to get off-topic but the Quranic text we are using could be wrong. We know many versions of the text exist with not just vowel difference but consonants, gender and order differences. Sometimes a different word is used.

same words; difference earliest manuscripts verse counts (man-made) offset

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/72?handschrift=163


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 19, 2019, 04:09:18 AM
Peace Neptin.
I agree with your take , even though  I differ in that "Rijal" can sometimes imply to a responsibility among the household rather than a gender.
Sometimes we ignore the context and connection of certain verses to others.
4:34 , in my opinion has a connection to 4:32:
وَلا تَتَمَنَّوا ما فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بِهِ بَعضَكُم عَلىٰ بَعضٍ لِلرِّجالِ نَصيبٌ مِمَّا اكتَسَبوا وَلِلنِّساءِ نَصيبٌ مِمَّا اكتَسَبنَ وَسـَٔلُوا اللَّهَ مِن فَضلِهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ بِكُلِّ شَىءٍ عَليمًا

A mutual relationship goes with an agreement in roles. Husband and wife agree the terms , sharing the work together. Whichever way they choose who does what. That agreement is a binder and any rebellion from either side is breaking the terms.

GOD has given each individual and each gender certain qualities . Qoran encourages .us to use these qualities to compliment each other and help one another in all sorts of relationships

If rebellion from either side arises ,then the steps are there in case.

So I do not see "hit/strike". I see seperation as a last resort if things get that bad.
Seriously ,does one really think "hit/strike" solves problems. Qoran for sure does not,  according to its general/overall message. Why have divorce laws if "hit/strike" solves the issues!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: jkhan on February 19, 2019, 05:03:46 AM
Peace all...

I am really afraid that anyone who still claim that God advise hitting woman then that person really should check his mentality. ...
Why this much confusion.... God says He is fair... If God allow men to hit women,  what kind of fair God He is...
No simply no... Something is wrong in your Arabic and knowledge in understanding it...
Just take a look at the below beautiful verse..
4:128
"And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in [human] souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."

In 4:34 and 4:128 Fear is imperative... What is this fear? I think now that this fear is not man or woman has some sexual relationship.... I also thought but it is not... I think this is kind Serious I'll conduct which doesn't suit to the other partner... Simply one partner cannot hold anymore the behavior of the other... That's what fear is all about... If the woman has had sexual relationship with another man while married... Hitting is not the law given in QURAN... It has different law... Do I need to say what is it?  Everyone knows... Husbands  or wife's solo witness is enoigh against his her partner... So,  punishment should be 100 lashes.. Not husband hitting....
Here it is only mischievous conduct which husband cannot bear and she doesn't reform....
And same in 4:128 she fears about her husband. She would have waited for long but no option rather than separation.. God didn't give the same advice as 4:34 what is given to man... Coz it is far from reality... That advices to husband who has illconduct or keeping him away from bed... That's only suit as advice to a good believing man... while for a good believing woman 4:128 suits... Coz she can't tolerate with him for no reason...
Just tell me now... Still you want to hit your wife... OMG... That's insane.... You want to hit your sisters and mothers and any woken under your dependence for their illconduct.... Then why only wife?  That's bizarre man quality.... That's not a man... That's a coward..
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2019, 05:09:19 AM
For you interpretation  to work....

I disagree, and let me explain why. This is how I picture what's happening:

Masculine plural are repelling each other (i.e. accusing each other) in it (the murder). So, lets say we have the following:

Bob is accusing Jim
Jim is accusing Alex
Alex is accusing Bob

God exposes what they are concealing (that they did it together) by stating to them all "cite (or point out) him with some of it (the murder)". It is NOT saying to them to "cite each one" because that may not fit into what was happening earlier, because that would mean Bob/Jim/Alex would change whom they were previously addressing blame to, from one person to each one, i.e.

Bob now accuses Jim and Alex
Jim now accuses Alex and Bob
Alex now accuses Bob and Jim

Also, you will note it says "averting/accusing/repelling each other IN it", and they are obviously not literally averting/accusing each other whilst physically IN the dead corpse so to me it is obviously referring to the murder. As I said see 5:32 for similar usage.

But I think this is an ok objection:
"Show me another verse in the Quran where a singular masculine possessive pronoun is used to imply an action of the verb on multiple people?"
In my opinion nowhere near as bad as the problems with your interpretation. I haven't researched the above point so cant comment.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: jkhan on February 19, 2019, 05:30:34 AM
Peace all...

I am really afraid that anyone who still claim that God advise hitting woman then that person really should check his mentality. ...
Why this much confusion.... God says He is fair... If God allow men to hit women,  what kind of fair God He is...
No simply no... Something is wrong in your Arabic and knowledge in understanding it...
Just take a look at the below beautiful verse..
4:128
"And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in [human] souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."

In 4:34 and 4:128 Fear is imperative... What is this fear? I think now that this fear is not man or woman has some sexual relationship.... I also thought but it is not... I think this is kind Serious I'll conduct which doesn't suit to the other partner... Simply one partner cannot hold anymore the behavior of the other... That's what fear is all about... If the woman has had sexual relationship with another man while married... Hitting is not the law given in QURAN... It has different law... Do I need to say what is it?  Everyone knows... Husbands  or wife's solo witness is enoigh against his her partner... So,  punishment should be 100 lashes.. Not husband hitting....
Here it is only mischievous conduct which husband cannot bear and she doesn't reform....
And same in 4:128 she fears about her husband. She would have waited for long but no option rather than separation.. God didn't give the same advice as 4:34 what is given to man... Coz it is far from reality... That advices to husband who has illconduct or keeping him away from bed... That's only suit as advice to a good believing man... while for a good believing woman 4:128 suits... Coz she can't tolerate with him for no reason...
Just tell me now... Still you want to hit your wife... OMG... That's insane.... You want to hit your sisters and mothers and any woken under your dependence for their illconduct.... Then why only wife?  That's bizarre man quality.... That's not a man... That's a coward..

Actually I can't bear what's being discussed here by few supporting hitting...

Take the two verses 4:34 and 4:128 ...
If a woman says my husband is aggressive and hitting me so I need divorce as per 4:128 ... Then husband can say in 4:34 it is allowed for me to hit her... Pls stop this nonsense... Common sense is vest to understand any book what's written in it...

Pls everyone don't overcook this topic... Without your knowledge some may take what you say as advice and hit wife... Don't be part of violence by instructing with lack of knowledge....
God guard all beliving men from this mean task of hitting wives... 😡😠😡 :brickwall: :elektro:
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: huruf on February 19, 2019, 07:55:08 AM
Tehre are no husbands or wives in the aya. There are males, en general, women in general, and ten there are some women respecting which the community may fear something, not the husbands.

Women exist regardles whether yhere is a husbando or there is not.

This mentalisty is so self-male centered that if women are mentionned at all it must from the point of view that they belong to some man.

This is very deressing and unQura'nic. You ll are forbidding the Qur'an to speak of women without belonging to a male. The Qur'an does not mention any particular man or men regarding those women about which the ommunity may fer something.

What about poor women which may have children and o support and may resot to prostitution?

Oh but in islam there is no prostitution. Everything is perfect, it has always been perfect and the only thing that can be feared from women or for womn is that they may not please their husband owners.

DEPRESSING

Salaam
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Neptin on February 19, 2019, 07:57:32 AM
Every generation of humans looks at the previous and is horrified by some of the accepted norms. The next generation will look at some of our actions that we think are in accordance with the Quran and will be horrified. They will then have to reinterpret.

When slavery was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When misogyny was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When homosexuality was a sin the Quran did not contradict it. Now that we are becoming more acceptable of it we are seeing the new interpretations.
One day people will claim Quran was a champion of gay rights just as it is now a champion of women's rights.
Tomorrow, we will take a different view on another topic and Quranists will rush out with new translations and claim 2019 Quranists had it wrong.

Neptin, sadly no one here will see your point.

     

Not bad. But the writing is on the wall. Until few months ago, I thought my own interpretation was right, unbiased and as objective as it could get. I was an advocate of Islamic Reform(I still am, only less so), because I thought we could read the Qur'an objectively, recover and spread the pristine, progressive message that traditionalists have distorted or buried.

Quote from: huruf
Believers are being addressed, believers in general, females and males. It is believing people who is being addressed, not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person masculine plural, just as women who are mentionned as third person feminine plural, but the addressee is second person plural retorical gender, that is, inclusive gender, the second person generic plual is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, beliebers in general are addressed all along.

huruf, the verse won't work that way. It is dealing with marital issues that is still between the husband and wife. The believers only intervene in the next verse. The believers do not forsake the women in bed, unless they are her husband.

The second person plural pronoun works for men as well and just because in the early part of the verse the third person masculine pronoun was used doesn't mean in the latter part second person plural can't apply. Your argument would be stronger if the entire verse was one long sentence, rather than multiple sentence broken apart with punctuation.

Quote
Actually I can't bear what's being discussed here by few supporting hitting...

Take the two verses 4:34 and 4:128 ...
If a woman says my husband is aggressive and hitting me so I need divorce as per 4:128 ... Then husband can say in 4:34 it is allowed for me to hit her... Pls stop this nonsense... Common sense is vest to understand any book what's written in it...

Pls everyone don't overcook this topic... Without your knowledge some may take what you say as advice and hit wife... Don't be part of violence by instructing with lack of knowledge....
God guard all beliving men from this mean task of hitting wives... 😡😠😡 :brickwall: :elektro:

Peace jkhan.

I've made it clear that I prefer the 'separate' or 'cite' interpretation, so where do you get the impression that I condone hitting wives?

Your exegesis is similar to goodlogic and I commend you both. But I'm afraid it won't amount to anything. Wife beating, provided no physical injury is caused - is justifiable to some people and they won't think twice about the traditional interpretation of 4:34. 

Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: jkhan on February 19, 2019, 08:08:20 AM
Tehre are no husbands or wives in the aya. There are males, en general, women in general, and ten there are some women respecting which the community may fear something, not the husbands.

Women exist regardles whether yhere is a husbando or there is not.

This mentalisty is so self-male centered that if women are mentionned at all it must from the point of view that they belong to some man.

This is very deressing and unQura'nic. You ll are forbidding the Qur'an to speak of women without belonging to a male. The Qur'an does not mention any particular man or men regarding those women about which the ommunity may fer something.

What about poor women which may have children and o support and may resot to prostitution?

Oh but in islam there is no prostitution. Everything is perfect, it has always been perfect and the only thing that can be feared from women or for womn is that they may not please their husband owners.

DEPRESSING

Salaam

Peace...
Are you sure what you say in your first para.....
Are you losing your memory with  time... I wonder...
How come one share bed ?... How come God orders not to share bed....
Can we keep a women from sharing bed before marriage..... Lol....
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: huruf on February 19, 2019, 08:30:27 AM
No Neptin, be thourough. The addresse is second person plural retoric gender which goes back to the "ya ayyuha alldhina amanu" in aya 29. An there is not mention whatsoever of husbands or wives or any such relationshipp, if you see husbands or wives in the aya but do not see the addresse, I cannot see any use inyour reading th Qura'n, it is as good if one makes it up straighy as one pleases. There are third person masculine plural which stand for males and third person femimine plural which stand for women, not husbands o wives.

Teh rest of your message I have not read. Just the start is too depressing ofr me to carry on any further.

I really do nto hold much hope for any renewal of qura'nic islam in "quranists" circles. A certain stage hs been reached where everybody seems to be as immovilist as anybody has ever been. This far, not more, beyond, like in the world charts of the 14th century "there be monsters".

I still look some posts because one never knows where one might come accross something that may lead to some interesting work, but really like int he gospels one feels like the sentence "let the dead bury their dead".

Salaam
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 19, 2019, 11:57:46 AM
Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding  on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone?  This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions:

Why do we need any agreement from others on what we understand through our  own effort of the book?

Why do we need to "force" our understanding of the book on others?

Why  do we need to read the book over and over again and still find new information on it?

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle  understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its  secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Speaking for myself, I have known this book since late 1990 s , I have skimmed it for years . I took it seriously since 2009/2010 and I am amazed at how little I know about it now.
Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less  difficult?

 Brothers Burhan and Neptin, I have been there and understand your concern and take on Qoran, but I disagree that the book itself is the issue. People s take on it is the issue.

Of course the basic of try our best to be  good humans , do good deeds and have good morals is crystal clear in it. The minimum requirement for GOD s approval. 
But the devil is in all the other details. I mean the force that is driving the majority behind this mystery.
Of course I never exclude myself from those who may deluded.
This is ongoing brothers and sisters and it will carry on along the line until GOD puts the stop sign on that day.
Happy discussions.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: hawk99 on February 19, 2019, 05:59:57 PM
Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding  on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone?  This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions:

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle  understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its  secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less  difficult?


GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Allah says many are lead astray by the use of examples (mathalan).

[2:26]   Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito
or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the
truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did
Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides
many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,


[3:7] explains the perspective one should take.

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are
verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and
others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth],
they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking
an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true]
interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say,
"We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded
except those of understanding.

Here is part of the deen:

[2:177]  Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or
the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the
Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in
spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those
who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer
and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise;
and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle.
Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the
righteous.

[30:21]
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that
you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection
and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

we argue about should we beat up the wife?   :nope:

We should not oppress the believer.

How can we separate amicably after acts of violence?

Will abuse bring us closer?

Where is the peace/ tranquility?   

[2:256] We really have no arguments  :)  because of the clear verses.
So if someone wants to argue that the earth is flat, or that the flood was
global, or that swine is lawful to eat, or we should attack our wives
they are coming from the speculative perspective of the deen.  One
should apply the "metaphorical brakes" and not own such a position,
however, if in regards to speculation if a believer wants to discuss
a topic it is fine as long as the speculative topic is not owned by the
speculator.

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.

Here is why [4:34] is talking about "separation".
First we talk/chastise one another, then avoid each other then think
about ending it, but before we do: 4/35.

[4:35] And if you fear dissension/discord/separation/dispute/divorce
between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator
from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will
cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted.

                                                :peace:
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 19, 2019, 07:31:24 PM

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.


Hmm also author tells us about people who are ?metaphorically? blind,deaf,dumb they will not return to the right direction (2:18).

it included all those people you listed in list specially flat earth believers  :handshake:

u know sometimes i think carefully about flat earth beleivers and apparent question that was coming in my mind from so long i get it (solved) by logic.

i was wondering even after knowing God is truth iblesss refuse to submitt. why?
now after having witnessed some stupids in life i have same question how come someone believe and debate on grass is not green or earth is flat? .

2:18 is quite logical and experimental.

even if u take them to ISS they will say you comments:

1 our eyes cheating us thats y it appear round to us from so (far).
2 nasa mix something in our drinks what make us earth look like massive ball.
3 gravity and other things were programmed in my mind that i m flying and playing balls game and playing with water bubbles.
4 hairs get dressed/makeup before it shows effect of zero g lmao.
5 mathematics is fake becoz only athiest can understand it complexity hahaha  :rotfl:
6 even if u took them to moon they will say it was area 51.

considering all this we can still understand how can a ? metaphorical blind?  can exist in this time/space. but we already have them so we have to live with it unfortunately or lucikly stupidity and intelligence is side of same coin walk and exist side by side in a continous process of life cycle.




Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: good logic on February 20, 2019, 03:56:08 AM
Peace brothers and sisters.
What is at stake here ,I mean in this life?
Our justice system can have loopholes, bias judges, rich people who pay their way out...etc. Our justice system is imperfect.
So often people get away with things ,even murder.

But if you believe Qoran, you know you are accountable to GOD s justice, not ours and will come to find out after studying the message that there are no loopholes, and no excuses.
Try this experiment, if you have not done so already. Imagine you are facing GOD for your accountability. Write a list you could give GOD as a good excuse for not following His instructions/commands.
Here are some questions/statements I wrote in my list:
-Why did you create me with only a little knowledge?
-How can I use this little knowledge to tackle your bigger knowledge?
-Why is it my fault since I can never know for certain things beyond my knowledge that I read/see in your message?
-How do I know I am on the right track for salvation since I am using only what you gave me,imperfection?
-Why choose multi meaning words that can be difficult to adapt..?
...Just to give an example,there were many more.

Then start crossing out the excuses that become obvious to you there are not genuine excuses. i.e you know they cannot hold even on our court of law because you know better after you study more.

My excuses started to becopme less and less as my study of Qoran and my hunger for knowledge increased.
This verse was the culprit:

"Akadhabtum Bi Aayati"---Did you disbelieve/taken lightly/ taken as a lie...my Aayat---"Wa Lam Tuhitu Biha Ilman"---Without studying/investigating/searching/gaining knowledge...about my Aayat---"Am Mada Kuntum Tafhaloon"---Or what is it you were doing?---.

The point is, we go back to GOD as individuals,not as a groups of sects!!!
We have to make sure as much as we can with the knowledge we possess about every single Aaya.
Each will answer for his/her own case.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 20, 2019, 04:50:31 AM
its a funny story but got moral in it.

a husband beat his women out of these common reasons.

1 she dnt cook good food( sometimes more salt sometime more spice etc).
2 she dnt look after the massive and big family of her inlaws.
3 she refuse to share bed when she tired after hard day of labouring husbands house and family.
4 she ask for the basic rights ( for running a house). if she got no money its mean husband will stay hungry and will beat her why she didnt cook anything.?

list is big but without ?cheating?/immoral factor.

after suffering from all this wife decide to cheat on husband. for the need of satisfying (body/self) and on other words with one cheat she can get multi purposes.

revenge from husband beating.
making impure what suppose to b pure ( like someone else son he will call his son).
satisfaction/food of body called as SEX. as a human need .
she is becoming a cause of husbands insult in society by doing this.
she can become a cause of trouble and in most of the cases the guy she select will beat up the husband easily lmao.

NOW their case is in court.

husband : i beat her coz my God give me permisson.
wife : i do what he force me to do after struggling a lot. he played his part and i played my part.

whatsoever they do they will end in seperation pemanently.

the BEAT thing only worsen the case.
its impossible if we can get anything GOOD from beating.

so after considering all this a wise man will not listen the shit written anywhere what cause harm more than benefit.

i dnt need grammer to undertand it. or accept it if my grammer force me to accept.
the fear of rejection comes from society and the books also comes from society same like ideas of wife beating etc.

the example above is LAW of applying wrong law to creator.
and said people things about God what god never order.

so God response is happening in disgrace/defetaed/sadness/humilation as a package.
he listen to God but what he get after that ?

so basically it was a wrong call to wrong God.upon recieving that call simply press RED button without any fear.


Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: burhan on February 20, 2019, 07:27:55 AM
Wakas, thanks for taking part in the discussion. I hope everybody found something of value. :peace:
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: amin on February 20, 2019, 07:34:31 AM
Cultures differs, beating wife is so common everywhere here, even the opposite of wife beating is common.  There can be a long story behind every beating. I never see Quran as law book to take clues for solving the complicated day today problems. The verse can be taken for ones's self advice in case we get a arrogant wife, we can even try solving issues through physical ways after trying other means, but be prepared to get it back at some other time as some other way.
Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: imrankhawaja on February 20, 2019, 08:29:26 AM
every bad and good THING is common in all past/present socities n cultures.

LIE
DISHONESTY
CHEATING
BACKBITTING
BEATING by (husband,wife,in some cases kids lol,teachers,elders,masters).
THEFT
CORRUPTION ( bribes, fakery, frauds, scams etc)
above list is common ?everywhere? in some cases.

Mixing pure milk WITH bacterial tap water ( asian region)
selling expired/fake medicines ( business of death).
 
this list is common in all third world countries and also in some developed countries.

most shocking wrong doing is business of DEATH.
involved KIDDNAPPING of people and sale their body organs.

tarffic little girls/boys for slavery/prostitution/begging.

in some cases brain washing people for killing innocent with blast ?boom?

the business of selling chemical based drug that cause death like mixing chemicals in heroin/powder/coacine/brownsugar etc.

another THING called virus and the medicine of that virus for business purpose.

The first list is catagorised as minor wrong doing hence common in all socities and some socities dnt even think/consider it as wrong doing. thats the first reason why nations/wrong people fall and other people rise.



Title: Re: quran434.com
Post by: Houriya on July 14, 2020, 12:38:00 PM
it is not to relaunch the debate, it is to add another opinion dating from 2004 :

From the debate below :

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7439.90

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7439.100

Peace JM,


/*in my opinion, "Waidriboohunna" implies "Waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi" ; like "waohjuroohunna ". In other words, I read this part of the verse as comme "waohjuroohunna  waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi"*/


The verse 4:1 illustrates the same structure than "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" in 4:34



"rijalan katheeran wanisaan" is translated as "many men and women", the word "katheeran" (many) is between "rijalan" (men) and "nisaan" (women). "Many" (katheeran) is for men and women in 4:1 and I say the same thing for "in bedchamber" (fee almadajiAAi), it is for "waohjuroohunna" and "waidriboohunna" in 4:34

In the same way for "rijalan katheeran wanisaan" in 4:1, I translate  "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" as "and abandon them and separate / move away/ from them in the bedchamber in 4:34

In other word, I can say "waohjuroohunna (abandon them) wainfuroohuna (turn away from them) fee almadajiAAi (in bed chamber),

The verbs "Hajara" and "nafara" are not identical but have a common concept : the separation

Let us suppose that the verb "daraba" in 4:34 means "to beat", why to beat them in the bedchamber and not in the living room?
 :roll:

There is no doubt, the quran explains itself.



Marie

Salaam Marie,

Very good explanation !!! Excellent.

I never tried to think about this verse, that way, even if this structure and style is used so many times in the Quran and not just in 4:1.

Well, so you'd read it "ihjuruhunna + idribuhunna fil madajii'" and this makes sense. Also the verb "daraba + fi" is used in the Quran for travelling as in "darabtum fil ard" or going far away. Did you research this before? "daraba + fi" can be the key for making this verse 100% clear in my mind! Your post made it clear, i just need to authenticate this understanding by researching "daraba + fi + place" to understand how its used in arabic. If you researched this before, pls let me know

God bless


best regards
*sabo*


Salaam Sabo,



In the following verses the verb "daraba" means to travel, to get out :
daraba fee----> 3:156; 4:101; 73:20; 2:273


I found only one example in my doctionary "Lisan al3arab" about "daraba+ fi + some thing" and it is a particular case :

The following is from my exchange with JM:



daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi ay nafara, falam yazal yaltabit wa yanzoo hatta tawwaha AAanhu ma AAalayhi min adatihi wa himlihi

daraba = ضرب

chameau /*camel*/ (albaAAeer ) = البعير

dans /*in*/ (fee) = في

ses bagages /*its luggage*/ (jahazihi ) = ﺟهاﺯه 

signifie /*means*/ (ay) = أي

to turn away (nafara) =   ﻧفر

 il ne cesse pas /*he doesn?t stop*/ (falam yazal) = ﻔﻠﻢ ﻳﺯﻞ
 
donner des coups de pied, des ruades /*to kick, to buck */ (yaltabit ) =ﻟﺒﻃ

ﻨﺯﺍ = sauter /* to jump*/ (yanzoo )

jusqu'? /*till*/ (hatta) = ﺣﺘﯽ

ﻃﻮﺡ= jeter, ?garer, faire tomber /*to throw, to mislay, to knock */ (tawwaha )

ce qu'il y a sur lui ou sur son dos /*what is on him or on his back */ (AAanhu ma AAalayhi) = ﻋﻧﻩ ﻣﺍ ﻋﻟﻳﻩ

de /*of*/ (min) = ﻣﻦ

ﺃﺪﺍﺘﻩ = son mat?riel /*its equipment*/ (adatihi )

ﺤﻤﻟﻩ= son poids, fardeau, chargement /*its burden*/ (himlihi)


The verb "nafara" which means to move away / turns away is also used on other verses :


4:71. O you who believe, take your precaution by going out in clusters, or going out all together.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookhuthoo hithrakum fainfiroo thubatinawi infiroo jameeAAan


See also  17:41,17:46, 25:60, 35:42


I think there is a common notion between "daraba fi alard" and "daraba fi some thing".


It is interesting to use the dictionaries in order ti improve our comprehension for some words  but they are posterior to the quran. The language evolved since the revlation of the quran. We have to seek the best explanation only on the light of the quran because the quran explains itself.


Peace and best wishes

Marie