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Foreign Language Boards => Arabic => Topic started by: Dlanod on December 30, 2018, 12:24:05 AM

Title: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Dlanod on December 30, 2018, 12:24:05 AM
Peace:

I know the topic has been partially dealt with here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609132.0 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609132.0)

But I'm not sure it's been fully dealt with. I'm specifically looking at the verses on divorce and whether men have more options/the options women have. Take a verse like 2:226-227:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226 (http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226)

for those who swear off by their wives - OK easy

then if they decide on divorce - well, this suggests they = the husband, but this could be argued...

And likewise 2:228:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=228 (http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=228)

If 'they' wish for a reconciliation - again to me this suggests the man wishing for it - but would this apply even if the woman was reluctant.

The other issues is, I am currently struggling to see anywhere where a woman can apply for a divorce in the Quran. Perhaps I am just not reading the verse correctly.

Many thanks for any help.




Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: huruf on December 30, 2018, 02:15:58 AM
The very aya you quote says it all, unless we do not want to understand the aya but rather use it for our own illegitimate purposes and in doing so we do not mind the aya meaning nonsense provided it suits us. .

It must be vorn in mind that the sentenced starts with the mutallaqaat, the divorced women. That is, the women are already divorced and if any mention of anything else is made after the divorce it is because of the possibility that she might be pregnant, so that no confusion might arise as to the paternity of any child, but she is already divorced. Therefore not married and therefore if they retract must by logic and gramar refer tot he women as well as the men. Even if they were not divorced you cannot make the plural restricted to the masculine gender because the conciliation is not obviously between the different members of the masculine gender but between one particular of them with one particular of the feminine gender, you need two in order to conciliate and two that have had conflict, otherwise there would not be anything to conciliate.

Also in the very same aya it is said that for the women the same as against them. We are still in the matter of divorce, so if the males have a right against the females so the females have it also against the male. As to the degree for the males (here it says males, not husbands) it obviously refers to what has been the question at the beginning of the aya and why it has been mentionned that they wait three courses and that they do not hide if the have conceived. Since the male do not conceive they do not have the obligation of not silencing conception, only women have that obligation since they are the only ones that conceive, and that is also why first it is spoken of husbands and then of males in general, because the males who might want to marry those divorced women should be aware if the woman they intend to marry has conceived of the previous husband or not.

Salaam
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Novice on December 30, 2018, 02:48:09 AM
Salaam sister huruf

You have told the truth. :yes
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Wakas on December 31, 2018, 03:26:54 PM
peace,

Welcome to the forum.

Quote
If 'they' wish for a reconciliation - again to me this suggests the man wishing for it - but would this apply even if the woman was reluctant.

See the dual use in 4:35 here:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rwd#(4:35:13)


Please see part 3:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

To my knowledge, the husband is the one who initiates divorce/talaq, however the wife can release herself from the marriage but it is not called talaq explicitly in Quran. In practice the end result is the same. It could be considered nomenclature for the time.

Please also see:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

It would be highly unusual for Quran to allow women to enter into marriage of their own choice (and reconcile if they want to), but not allow them to end the marriage. Even after this, if one still thinks divorce is not an explicit right of the woman in marriage as per Quran, then the woman is free to stipulate anything in her marital oath/contract so she could put it in that if she wanted.
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Dlanod on January 12, 2019, 01:31:46 AM
The very aya you quote says it all, unless we do not want to understand the aya but rather use it for our own illegitimate purposes and in doing so we do not mind the aya meaning nonsense provided it suits us. .


Peace:

Respectfully, I don't fully agree with what you have said or imply.

2:226 - The 'they' and 'those' can only refer to the husbands.

2:227 - Could be argued, but given 2:226 it is far more likely this refers to the husbands

2:228 - Cannot be argued that the husbands can take back the wives

This is just my opinion on what the Quran is saying.

Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: huruf on January 12, 2019, 01:38:41 AM
Peace:

Respectfully, I don't fully agree with what you have said or imply.

2:226 - The 'they' and 'those' can only refer to the husbands.

2:227 - Could be argued, but given 2:226 it is far more likely this refers to the husbands

2:228 - Cannot be argued that the husbands can take back the wives

This is just my opinion on what the Quran is saying.

Is that the best meaning you can get out of it  Or do you think you can get that meaning even if it is not the best?

For them (feminine) the same as on them (feminine) seems to you unconclusive?

Salaam
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Dlanod on January 12, 2019, 01:39:00 AM
however the wife can release herself from the marriage


Peace:

Is this what you derive from 4:35?
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Dlanod on January 12, 2019, 01:41:55 AM

For them (feminine) the same as on them (feminine) seems to you unconclusive?

Salaam

Peace:

Which verse are you referring to here?
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: huruf on January 12, 2019, 02:05:53 AM
The one we are dealing with here 2.228.

Salaam
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Wakas on January 12, 2019, 04:27:39 AM
Peace:

Is this what you derive from 4:35?

Not entirely. My point about 4:35 was that it says "If they BOTH want to reconcile". Seems clear the wife has a say/choice.
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Mazhar on March 23, 2019, 10:02:36 AM
Firstly we need to know what English word Divorce means and whether or not it is equivalent to Arabic word: AtTalaq,

divorce
/dɪˈvɔːs/Submit
noun
1.
the legal dissolution of a marriage by a court or other competent body.
"her divorce from her first husband"
synonyms:   dissolution, annulment, official separation, judicial separation, separation, disunion, break-up, split, split-up, severance, rupture, breach, parting; More
verb
1.
legally dissolve one's marriage with (someone).
"she divorced him in 1965"
synonyms:   split up (with), end one's marriage (to), get a divorce (from), separate (from), part (from), split (from), break up (with), part company (with), dissolve one's marriage (to), annul one's marriage (to); More
2.
separate or dissociate (something) from something else, typically with an undesirable effect.
"religion cannot be divorced from morality"
synonyms: separate, disconnect, divide, disunite, sever, disjoin, split, dissociate, detach, isolate, alienate, set apart, keep apart, cut off;

Arabic word signifies the meanings mentioned at 2; not formal or legal dissolution of marriage.

Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: Rayduport on May 31, 2021, 12:07:38 PM
I remember I had a similar situation. My parents were divorced. When I was little, everything was fine. We were a great family. Then someone cheated on someone. I do not know the exact details because I was still a small child. It's a good thing that my aunt was a lawyer at a firm (https://stearns-law.com/contact/marietta/), and she helped us a lot. I thought my parents would almost kill each other. They quarreled a lot about money, the house, my father's business. After all, my father did not want to give even a tiny part of his business to my mother, but everything was resolved, and we now see him often. However, my father does not communicate with my mother at all directly...
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: good logic on June 01, 2021, 12:28:23 PM
A divorce court judge said to me, “I have reviewed your case very carefully, and I’ve decided to give your wife $1800 a week.”
“That’s very fair, your honor,” I replied. “And every now and then, I’ll try to send her a few bucks myself.”

Me I want to know if I have grounds for divorce.
My lawyer: Are you married?
Me Yes, of course.I have 4 wives
My lawyer: Then you will have no grounds or properties or anything left. Everything will be shared amongst them.

What did I  say to my alien wife after separating ?
May divorce be with you.

Why is my relationship similar to algebra?
Because sometimes I look at  my X and wonder Y.

When people who don't yet know I'm divorced ask, "where is your other half", I reply, "she got it in the divorce settlement".

Anyway, it is my wife s fault We got a divorce.
She told me I should be more affectionate. So I got two girlfriends.

Actually it is  my fault we got a divorce.
My wife told me:" A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
I replied:"A successful woman is one who can find such a man."
That is why neither of us was successful in our marriage.

My wife always  had the last word in any argument. Anything I said to her after that was the beginning of a new argument.

Make love, not war. --Hell, do both, get married and never divorce!
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: hawk99 on June 01, 2021, 03:32:15 PM
A divorce court judge said to me, “I have reviewed your case very carefully, and I’ve decided to give your wife $1800 a week.”
“That’s very fair, your honor,” I replied. “And every now and then, I’ll try to send her a few bucks myself.”

Me I want to know if I have grounds for divorce.
My lawyer: Are you married?
Me Yes, of course.I have 4 wives
My lawyer: Then you will have no grounds or properties or anything left. Everything will be shared amongst them.

What did I  say to my alien wife after separating ?
May divorce be with you.

Why is my relationship similar to algebra?
Because sometimes I look at  my X and wonder Y.

When people who don't yet know I'm divorced ask, "where is your other half", I reply, "she got it in the divorce settlement".

Anyway, it is my wife s fault We got a divorce.
She told me I should be more affectionate. So I got two girlfriends.

Actually it is  my fault we got a divorce.
My wife told me:" A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
I replied:"A successful woman is one who can find such a man."
That is why neither of us was successful in our marriage.

My wife always  had the last word in any argument. Anything I said to her after that was the beginning of a new argument.

Make love, not war. --Hell, do both, get married and never divorce!
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

                                            ;D    Good Stuff  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
Post by: good logic on June 02, 2021, 12:05:23 AM
Brother.
Hope everything is fine where you are?
Life itself has changed with the so called virus. I wonder if there is less divorce cases under lockdown?
Here in England,we have a new"normal". Lockdown was lifted except  in some areas  which are still under "regional lockdown" because of new variants.
If the regional areas keep growing we will soon be under another lockdown. Or may be this is the third time lucky?
However the masks and distancing remain!.

I am always optimistic and  my only fear is separation from my Lord. I do not trust my satan. That is the evil that, try as I may, I have failed to divorce  the devil!!
I  will keep trying brother.

GOD bless you and your family.
Peace..