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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: NK on September 19, 2018, 12:07:14 PM

Title: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: NK on September 19, 2018, 12:07:14 PM
Salam to all,

Could someone explain following verse to me please.
 
فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ ۖ فَانفَلَقَ فَكَانَ كُلُّ فِرْقٍ كَالطَّوْدِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴿٦٣﴾
Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain. (63)


It was really a miracle that water stood like a mountain?

NK
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 19, 2018, 01:29:29 PM
Salam to all,

Could someone explain following verse to me please.
 
فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ ۖ فَانفَلَقَ فَكَانَ كُلُّ فِرْقٍ كَالطَّوْدِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴿٦٣﴾
Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain. (63)


It was really a miracle that water stood like a mountain?

NK

فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ
Thereby, Our Majesty conveyed to Mūsā [alai'his'slaam]: that "Strike the Gulf of Suez with the help of your staff (to emerge for them the dried up passage/Fringing reef-as earlier told 20:77]".

فَانفَلَقَ

Sequel to his striking, that (the dried passage); itself emerged becoming visible.

فَكَانَ كُلُّ فِرْقٍ كَالطَّوْدِ الْعَظِيمِ

Thereat, each segment - assemblage of its parts was like the Big Bone-Skeleton [Fringing reefs] stationed firmly at its position. [26:63]

This is about the Episode of famous Exodus. Background information needs to be referred.

Exodus - Eyewitness account

From Egypt to At-Tur [Mount in Sinai] by crossing over Gulf of Suez

http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm)
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: reel on September 19, 2018, 03:23:39 PM

Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain. (63)

It was really a miracle that water stood like a mountain?

NK

Where does it say the water stood ? Assad's interpretation is clearer:
Thereupon We inspired Moses thus: Strike the sea with thy staff!”- whereupon it parted, and each part appeared like a mountain vast.26:63

Waves can look like mountain. But yeah, in some places, sea water separates for some minutes or hours. People can thus drive over the floor. There is one place like this in Europe. I think the path gets covered by the sea/river water after 7am or something.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 19, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
Where does it say the water stood ? Assad's interpretation is clearer:
Thereupon We inspired Moses thus: Strike the sea with thy staff!”- whereupon it parted, and each part appeared like a mountain vast.26:63

Waves can look like mountain. But yeah, in some places, sea water separates for some minutes or hours. People can thus drive over the floor. There is one place like this in Europe. I think the path gets covered by the sea/river water after 7am or something.

The floor of a sea is in great depth. How would one go to the floor of a sea? Further waves have a specific word. كَالطَّوْدِ cannot refer waves. Waves move.

 "Strike the sea with thy staff!”. If he did not know for what to strike, the sentence would have been vague for him also. The next verbal sentence was not addressed to him, but is informative for the reader as to what had happened when he struck the sea with his staff.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 19, 2018, 08:13:41 PM
فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ
Thereby, Our Majesty conveyed to Mūsā [alai'his'slaam]: that "Strike the Gulf of Suez with the help of your staff (to emerge for them the dried up passage/Fringing reef-as earlier told 20:77]".

Sorry Mazhar but I cannot stop highlighting what you add to the verses.

فَانفَلَقَ

Sequel to his striking, that (the dried passage); itself emerged becoming visible.

This whole red part is not in the verse.


فَكَانَ كُلُّ فِرْقٍ كَالطَّوْدِ الْعَظِيمِ

Thereat, each segment - assemblage of its parts was like the Big Bone-Skeleton [Fringing reefs] stationed firmly at its position. [26:63]

This is about the Episode of famous Exodus. Background information needs to be referred.

And what is your source of background information?

Here is an interpretation by Parwez Ahmad

26 (63) So We sent a revelation to Moses, saying, “Take your people to the sea/river (from a particular direction) and then cross it at a point where it has become dry (20:77, 44:24).”
Then when it was dawn, the two groups stood across from each other like huge masses. (The Bani-Israel on one side of the sea:river and the army of Pharaoh on the other.)

http://tolueislam.org/exposition-of-the-holy-quran-26-surah-ash-shuara-g-a-parwez/

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 19, 2018, 11:48:55 PM
Pazuzu explained in this forum this passage and the whole episode of the night travel of the people of Musa and their persecutors in a very clear a conclusive way.

No Gulf of Suez.

I have tried to retrieve it from the forum, but I do not know why I cannot get anything out of the search function.

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Wakas on September 20, 2018, 01:59:23 AM
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.msg350061#msg350061
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: reel on September 20, 2018, 03:24:36 AM
The floor of a sea is in great depth. How would one go to the floor of a sea? Further waves have a specific word. كَالطَّوْدِ cannot refer waves. Waves move.

 "Strike the sea with thy staff!”. If he did not know for what to strike, the sentence would have been vague for him also. The next verbal sentence was not addressed to him, but is informative for the reader as to what had happened when he struck the sea with his staff.

Floor of the sea is not plain. A piece of floor can always come upward because of earthquake.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 20, 2018, 03:42:15 AM
Sorry Mazhar but I cannot stop highlighting what you add to the verses.

This whole red part is not in the verse.


And what is your source of background information?

Here is an interpretation by Parwez Ahmad

26 (63) So We sent a revelation to Moses, saying, “Take your people to the sea/river (from a particular direction) and then cross it at a point where it has become dry (20:77, 44:24).”
Then when it was dawn, the two groups stood across from each other like huge masses. (The Bani-Israel on one side of the sea:river and the army of Pharaoh on the other.)

http://tolueislam.org/exposition-of-the-holy-quran-26-surah-ash-shuara-g-a-parwez/

The first thing you consider is not in Original text is "Gulf of Suez".

This is because of translation of Pervez "the river/sea".

So he accepts the word:(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/6.gif) in Arabic can signify either river and sea. Thereby, you will agree that in a text it cannot mean both because river and sea are very different from other sharing similarity of reservoir of water - trench, or cleave lengthwise which is the concept of its Root:  ب ح ر

Please notice the actual word in the source text which Pervez and many others missed; it is(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/2.gif).

It is a combination of two words. One prefixed article and a common noun. Both in English the word "the" and "الْ" are determiner denoting things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge of Speaker and the addressee.

Speaker and addressee both knew what it referred.

And this word specifying a specific entity with exclusion to all other similar entities mentioned in one to one speech needs to be found out by the translator by studying the entire episode in the Book.

It is mentioned at other places. By crossing this specific Reservoir of Water they had reached to a place which is on the shore of Gulf of Suez.

Pervez has also mentioned in the brackets the direction of journey. On that side of Egypt it is not river but Gulf of Suez.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 20, 2018, 03:49:16 AM
Floor of the sea is not plain. A piece of floor can always come upward because of earthquake.

But that does not come in manner of joining two edges of the sea. They are pieces of land surrounded by sea water.

Reefs are also on the surface of the water.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: reel on September 20, 2018, 07:07:04 PM
But that does not come in manner of joining two edges of the sea. They are pieces of land surrounded by sea water.

Reefs are also on the surface of the water.

Considering the fact that humans know only 10% about the earth water, without proper scientific research, it would be hard to say how it all happened.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 20, 2018, 08:08:56 PM
The first thing you consider is not in Original text is "Gulf of Suez".

This is because of translation of Pervez "the river/sea".

So he accepts the word:(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/6.gif) in Arabic can signify either river and sea. Thereby, you will agree that in a text it cannot mean both because river and sea are very different from other sharing similarity of reservoir of water - trench, or cleave lengthwise which is the concept of its Root:  ب ح ر

Please notice the actual word in the source text which Pervez and many others missed; it is(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/2.gif).

It is a combination of two words. One prefixed article and a common noun. Both in English the word "the" and "الْ" are determiner denoting things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge of Speaker and the addressee.

Speaker and addressee both knew what it referred.

"Al" could also be a genre like ٱلنَّاسِ

It is mentioned at other places. By crossing this specific Reservoir of Water they had reached to a place which is on the shore of Gulf of Suez.

Which other places. unless they are outside of Quran, say it was the shore of Gulf of Suez.

Pervez has also mentioned in the brackets the direction of journey. On that side of Egypt it is not river but Gulf of Suez.

I did not see any place in brackets. He only wrote "from a certain direction" in his Mafhoom ul Quran.

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 21, 2018, 02:43:14 AM
"Al" could also be a genre like ٱلنَّاسِ

Which other places. unless they are outside of Quran, say it was the shore of Gulf of Suez.

I did not see any place in brackets. He only wrote "from a certain direction" in his Mafhoom ul Quran.

In injunctive text it is not like this; commands are specific.

It is mentioned where did they reach after crossing the specific water reservoir:

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/7.138.gif)

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.249/533.%20Jawazaho%20Jeem%20Waw%20Ze/2.gif)
Verb: Perfect; First person; Plural/Sovereign Singular; Masculine; [Form-III]; [نَا] Suffixed Subject Pronoun; nominative state;  مصدر مُجَاوَزَةٌ Verbal Noun. It stems from Root ج و ز. It signifies crossing over a place, a passage which is crossed from one side to other. Its object is Gulf of Suez. The travelers on the passage over the Water of the Gulf of Suez were the Messengers along with Bani Iesraa'eel. 

Why the object of verb: (http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/1.gif)  be taken as Gulf of Suez? Because they were rescued to a place which is located on other side of the Gulf of Suez. It is explicitly mentioned:

يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ قَدْ أَنجَيْنَاكُم مِّنْ عَدُوِّكُمْ وَوَاعَدْنَاكُمْ جَانِبَ الطُّورِ الْأَيْمَنَ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَنَّ وَالسَّلْوَىٰ

In the entire globe there is no At Tur by the bank of a Sea except the one on the Eastern shore of Gulf of Suez opposite to a location known as Râs Shukeir. The width of Gulf is 12 to 20 miles. The width between Ras Shukeir and right side of At Tur seems on shorter side in the Google Map. And we will see them in later part of the study that they had moved out of the Egypt towards East to escape.

Exodus - Eyewitness account

From Egypt to At-Tur [Mount in Sinai] by crossing over Gulf of Suez

http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm)
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: NK on September 22, 2018, 06:32:11 AM
One of the meaning of طَّوْد in Lane's dictionary is " elevated or overlooking tract of sand" .The
meaning may be that each wave, as it receded, was like a huge mound which makes sense.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 22, 2018, 03:15:22 PM
In injunctive text it is not like this; commands are specific.

It is mentioned where did they reach after crossing the specific water reservoir:

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/7.138.gif)

(http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.249/533.%20Jawazaho%20Jeem%20Waw%20Ze/2.gif)
Verb: Perfect; First person; Plural/Sovereign Singular; Masculine; [Form-III]; [نَا] Suffixed Subject Pronoun; nominative state;  مصدر مُجَاوَزَةٌ Verbal Noun. It stems from Root ج و ز. It signifies crossing over a place, a passage which is crossed from one side to other. Its object is Gulf of Suez. The travelers on the passage over the Water of the Gulf of Suez were the Messengers along with Bani Iesraa'eel. 

Why the object of verb: (http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.050/1.gif)  be taken as Gulf of Suez? Because they were rescued to a place which is located on other side of the Gulf of Suez. It is explicitly mentioned:

يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ قَدْ أَنجَيْنَاكُم مِّنْ عَدُوِّكُمْ وَوَاعَدْنَاكُمْ جَانِبَ الطُّورِ الْأَيْمَنَ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَنَّ وَالسَّلْوَىٰ

In the entire globe there is no At Tur by the bank of a Sea except the one on the Eastern shore of Gulf of Suez opposite to a location known as Râs Shukeir. The width of Gulf is 12 to 20 miles. The width between Ras Shukeir and right side of At Tur seems on shorter side in the Google Map. And we will see them in later part of the study that they had moved out of the Egypt towards East to escape.

Exodus - Eyewitness account

From Egypt to At-Tur [Mount in Sinai] by crossing over Gulf of Suez

http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm (http://haqeeqat.pk/Exodus.htm)

There is no proof that claimed mount in Sina is toor mentioned in Quran. It all is based on supposition that bani Israeel were in "misr" which is named Egypt. Calling Misr as Egypt is inself very strange.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 23, 2018, 02:31:50 AM
There is no proof that claimed mount in Sina is toor mentioned in Quran. It all is based on supposition that bani Israeel were in "misr" which is named Egypt. Calling Misr as Egypt is inself very strange.

Misr is the original name; Western world mentions it as Egypt. Try finding Misr elsewhere in the World. Did GA Pervez found out Misr other than Egypt.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 23, 2018, 03:36:10 AM
I have found Pazuzu's text which settle the question of this aya and of all the events sourrounding it. It is long so I will but it by stages:

First:

Where did Far„awn Drown?
The key to cracking this puzzle lies in our understanding of the word yamm which has been erroneously translated to mean sea. The Qur‟ān, in certain passages, states that Far„awn and his henchmen drowned in the baḥr; while in other passages, it tells us that they perished in the yamm. Does this mean that the two words are synonymous? Absolutely not! There are no synonymous terms whatsoever in the eloquent tongue of the Qur‟ān. The terms baḥr and yamm are derived from completely different roots, and hence cannot have the same meaning. So what is the solution then?



We have already shown you that the word baḥr simply designates a large basin of abundant water. But what about yamm? Since there are no synonyms in the Qur‟ānic text, the only possible explanation is that yamm is a description of this body of water. It is specifying what kind of baḥr it was that Far„awn drowned in. Hence baḥr is the general term, while yamm is the specific one. The relation between the two terms is comparable to the relation between the terms vehicle (general) and car (specific).

When Mūsa was born, his mother placed him in the yamm [20:39]. The brainwashed commentators interpreted this yamm as the Nile River, without any proof whatsoever. When Far„awn drowned in the yamm, they interpreted it as the Sea of Reeds, just south of today‟s the Suez Canal. And when Mūsa threw the golden calf of the Sāmiriy in the yamm [20:97], they imagined it as a stream in the so-called “Sinai Peninsula” (since they could not find a single river there). As you can see, they gave the same word three different interpretations - thus making a mockery of Allah‟s words - in order to make the story fit with the geography of Egypt.

The truth of the matter is that the word yamm has only one meaning; and this meaning is common to several of the so-called “Semitic” languages, notably Arabic, Aramaic, and Syriac. It means: a great, flowing stream of water. This word appears exclusively in the story of Mūsa, and has no other meaning. In fact, if you visit the regions of „Aseer and Yemen (South Arabia) and ask the locals today what the word yamm means, they will unanimously tell you that it is a great stream which flows down a mountainside. Once the yamm reaches flat, open ground, it becomes a nahr (river). Such is the eloquence and precision of the Qur‟ānic tongue.

Using this knowledge to give the word a consistent meaning in the Qur‟ān, the story then becomes clear, and the puzzle is solved: Mūsa‟s mother placed him in a stream; Far„awn drowned in a stream, and the calf of the Sāmiriy was hurled into a stream. Far„awn did not drown in the Red Sea, as the Zionist propaganda would have us believe. He drowned in an inland body of water, somewhere in the Sārat mountains of ancient Yemen.

The proof can be found in the following signs:

{And We inspired to Moses: “Go forth with my servants, in secret. You will be followed” * So Far‟awn sent gatherers to the towns * “They are but a small band. * And they have enraged us. * And we are all gathered and forewarned”. * So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * And treasures and an honorable station * As such, We made the Children of Israel inherit it all * So they were pursued at sunrise * But when the two groups saw each other, the companions of Mūsa said: “We are caught!” * He said: “No, my Rabb is with me and He will guide me”. * So We inspired to Mūsa: “Strike forth towards the baḥr with conviction”. So it split into two, each side like a great cliff face * And We then brought the others
(the pursuers) near * And We saved Mūsa and all those with him *Then We drowned the others}....[26:52-66].

The Israelites, led by Mūsa (P), fled Miṣr (a prominent walled citadel in ancient Yemen), at night. This is the essence of isrā' (the departure from a place in secrecy, without attracting attention). It was not until after Far„awn realized the Israelites had left, that he gathered a party of hunters from the nearby villages, and launched a full pursuit of what he called “a small band”. Would the great kings of Egypt, who lived in huge palaces with an army ready at their call, prepared to take on rival empires at any time, need to send callers to nearby villages to organize a search party? Would Ramses, Merneptah or Imhotep, personally take it upon themselves to chase a small band across the wilderness of Egypt? Furthermore, how far had Mūsa and the Israelites gone before Far„awn caught up to them? Let's think a bit: the Qur‟ān is telling us that Far„awn and his band moved faster than the Israelites, because despite the renegades‟ head start, the pursuers were still able to gather themselves and catch up to them at dawn of the next day.
Then comes the critical part: Allah tells us that the two parties reached a point where they were close enough to gaze upon each other: {But when the two groups saw each other, the companions of Mūsa said: “We are caught!”}. The average width of the Sea of Reeds, the alleged crossing point, is around 25 kilometers (as shown in the map below). It would have been impossible for the two parties to see each other across that distance, taking into consideration the conditions (time and place) surrounding the event.


.....

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 23, 2018, 06:53:26 AM
Quote
The truth of the matter is that the word yamm has only one meaning; and this meaning is common to several of the so-called “Semitic” languages, notably Arabic, Aramaic, and Syriac. It means: a great, flowing stream of water. This word appears exclusively in the story of Mūsa, and has no other meaning. In fact, if you visit the regions of „Aseer and Yemen (South Arabia) and ask the locals today what the word yamm means, they will unanimously tell you that it is a great stream which flows down a mountainside. Once the yamm reaches flat, open ground, it becomes a nahr (river). Such is the eloquence and precision of the Qur‟ānic tongue.

Stream means:

1.
a small, narrow river.
But since he is insisting that it means water flowing down from mountains, verb stream means "flow in a continuous current in a specified direction".

Can one say so and so drowned in the flow of water? He naively fails to see the preposition used with the word.

فَانتَقَمْنَا مِنْهُمْ فَأَغْرَقْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا وَكَانُوا عَنْهَا غَافِلِينَ

People drown into the bed of a water reservoir; not in the water continuously flowing from mountains.

Water reservoir alternatively throws a body in the water to its bank. He further naively overlooks this:

أَنِ اقْذِفِيهِ فِي التَّابُوتِ فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ الْيَمُّ بِالسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِّي وَعَدُوٌّ لَّهُ ۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِّنِّي وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِي

Has someone seen السَّاحِلِ of water flowing down from mountains? Simply absurd thought.

Hence all his work is baseless and just a palaver, 

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 23, 2018, 08:26:21 AM
No, Pazuzu's work is very sound. You are stuck with your egyptian bible lore  which may match your own whims and bible hadith, but which do not match AT ALL the qur'an.

But that is your trade I guess, and it is understandable that you pursue it.

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 23, 2018, 08:42:11 AM
No, Pazuzu's work is very sound. You are stuck with your egyptian bible lore  which may match your own whims and bible hadith, but which do not match AT ALL the qur'an.

But that is your trade I guess, and it is understandable that you pursue it.

Salaam

How one can be blind to ground facts, except when one is blocked by passions and personality worship.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 23, 2018, 12:15:13 PM
How one can be blind to ground facts, except when one is blocked by passions and personality worship.

look who's speaking!

My real passion are your serious posts. Nothing can get funnier. Specially when you spice them with the star word "palaver".

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 23, 2018, 12:34:22 PM
look who's speaking!

My real passion are your serious posts. Nothing can get funnier. Specially when you spice them with the star word "palaver".

Salaam

Any argument, evidence to rebut what I have stated to refute his ill understanding of word "Yem" on which is based his paper?
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 23, 2018, 06:18:46 PM
Misr is the original name; Western world mentions it as Egypt. Try finding Misr elsewhere in the World. Did GA Pervez found out Misr other than Egypt.

GA Pervez was not god but a humble scholar who tried his best to understand Quran. He never claimed himself free of mistakes.

Our Prophet used "GYPT" in the alleged letter to head of your "MISR".

I do not know about GA Pervez but I did find a Misr in 2:61

وَإِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ يَـٰمُوسَىٰ لَن نَّصۡبِرَ عَلَىٰ طَعَامٍ۬ وَٲحِدٍ۬ فَٱدۡعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُخۡرِجۡ لَنَا مِمَّا تُنۢبِتُ ٱلۡأَرۡضُ مِنۢ بَقۡلِهَا وَقِثَّآٮِٕهَا وَفُومِهَا وَعَدَسِہَا وَبَصَلِهَا‌ۖ قَالَ أَتَسۡتَبۡدِلُونَ ٱلَّذِى هُوَ أَدۡنَىٰ بِٱلَّذِى هُوَ خَيۡرٌ‌ۚ ٱهۡبِطُواْ مِصۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّ لَڪُم مَّا سَأَلۡتُمۡ‌ۗ وَضُرِبَتۡ عَلَيۡهِمُ ٱلذِّلَّةُ وَٱلۡمَسۡڪَنَةُ وَبَآءُو بِغَضَبٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ‌ۗ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمۡ كَانُواْ يَكۡفُرُونَ بِـَٔايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ وَيَقۡتُلُونَ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۗ ذَٲلِكَ بِمَا عَصَواْ وَّڪَانُواْ يَعۡتَدُونَ
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 23, 2018, 07:19:10 PM
GA Pervez was not god but a humble scholar who tried his best to understand Quran. He never claimed himself free of mistakes.

Our Prophet used "GYPT" in the alleged letter to head of your "MISR".

I do not know about GA Pervez but I did find a Misr in 2:61

وَإِذۡ قُلۡتُمۡ يَـٰمُوسَىٰ لَن نَّصۡبِرَ عَلَىٰ طَعَامٍ۬ وَٲحِدٍ۬ فَٱدۡعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُخۡرِجۡ لَنَا مِمَّا تُنۢبِتُ ٱلۡأَرۡضُ مِنۢ بَقۡلِهَا وَقِثَّآٮِٕهَا وَفُومِهَا وَعَدَسِہَا وَبَصَلِهَا‌ۖ قَالَ أَتَسۡتَبۡدِلُونَ ٱلَّذِى هُوَ أَدۡنَىٰ بِٱلَّذِى هُوَ خَيۡرٌ‌ۚ ٱهۡبِطُواْ مِصۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّ لَڪُم مَّا سَأَلۡتُمۡ‌ۗ وَضُرِبَتۡ عَلَيۡهِمُ ٱلذِّلَّةُ وَٱلۡمَسۡڪَنَةُ وَبَآءُو بِغَضَبٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ‌ۗ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمۡ كَانُواْ يَكۡفُرُونَ بِـَٔايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ وَيَقۡتُلُونَ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۗ ذَٲلِكَ بِمَا عَصَواْ وَّڪَانُواْ يَعۡتَدُونَ

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/043.%20Az%20Zukhraf/43.51.gif)
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/043.%20Az%20Zukhraf/43.51a.gif)
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.72b.gif)
Know this fact, Fir'aoun/Pharaoh circulated proclamation/address within his Nation, he said,

"O my countrymen/nation, is the state/dominion of Misr [Unified country of Two Lands-now known as Egypt] not for me, and these streams of water are flowing by my side/underneath [which indicates and refers to his palace]? [Consider this and]

Will you people still not see/focus [about my superiority]? [43:51]
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 23, 2018, 07:24:57 PM

أَنِ اقْذِفِيهِ فِي التَّابُوتِ فَاقْذِفِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ الْيَمُّ بِالسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِّي وَعَدُوٌّ لَّهُ ۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِّنِّي وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِي

Has someone seen السَّاحِلِ of water flowing down from mountains? Simply absurd thought.

Hence all his work is baseless and just a palaver,

Please check Raghib and Taj-ul-Aroos for the meaning of root س ح ل to understand السَّاحِلِ

ا) “ar-riyaahu nashalul ard): winds scrape the surface of the earth.

ا) “as-saahil): river bank or sea shore which is worn away (gradually) or scraped by the water {T,
R}.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 23, 2018, 07:27:02 PM
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/043.%20Az%20Zukhraf/43.51.gif)
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/043.%20Az%20Zukhraf/43.51a.gif)
(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.72b.gif)
Know this fact, Fir'aoun/Pharaoh circulated proclamation/address within his Nation, he said,

"O my countrymen/nation, is the state/dominion of Misr [Unified country of Two Lands-now known as Egypt] not for me, and these streams of water are flowing by my side/underneath [which indicates and refers to his palace]? [Consider this and]

Will you people still not see/focus [about my superiority]? [43:51]

Brother you have ignored 2:61 which could also explain use of misr in 43:51
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 24, 2018, 12:54:48 AM
Pazuzu's research continued:

Map #7: The alleged “crossing” point, in the Sea of Reeds, whose width ranges between 19 and 35 kilometers.
100
The next photograph is a satellite image of the area, which shows just how wide the Sea of Reeds is at the imagined crossing point. It doesn't take a genius to realize that something is just plain wrong with the entire geography of the story, and that someone has been insulting our intelligence for centuries, while we‟ve been unknowingly playing the drums and trumpets to the tune of their fraud.
Picture #20: Satellite image of the area.
An even more outrageous theory places the crossing point not at the Sea of Reeds, but further south, through the Red Sea itself! (See the following map). The advocates of this theory completely deny that Mount Sinai is on that famous peninsula, and claim that Mūsa (P) ended up in Arabia, somewhere in the Northern Ḥijāz region, where the Israelites wandered for 40 years before finally entering the so-called “Promised Land” of Palestine. In fact, some contemporary Muslim commentators have shown enthusiasm and support for this latter theory, while completely ignoring the fact that it blatantly contradicts the obvious geography deduced from the Qur‟ānic account. They are seemingly oblivious to the fact that the width of the Red sea at that point is around 200 kilometers! How could the two parties see each other from across that distance? Did the Israelites take binoculars with them on their journey?
The logic of the Qur‟ānic account is easily understood once we clear our heads of inherited dogmas before contemplating its signs. The Israelites had not gone far at all when Far„awn caught up to them. There‟s not a chance in Hell they could have reached the coast of the Sea of Reeds in one night. Furthermore, Far„awn and his henchmen were almost upon the evaders at the moment of the crossing. So where did these events take place?
101
Map #8: An even more absurd candidate for the crossing point.
Here follows is a possible explanation of what happened:
As we said before, Mūsa (P) and his people fled the citadel, in secret, at night. Far„awn didn‟t gather the search party until after he realized they were gone. The Children of Israel were most probably no more than six hundred in number. Far„awn caught up to them at dawn, which proves that the distance the evaders had covered could not have been long. When they saw that the tyrant and his henchmen were getting close and feared they would be caught, Allah comforted the heart of Mūsa and told him to head towards a river bed along the slope of a mountainside. The Israelites hiked upwards along a narrow path between two huge streams of water, like cliff banks on either side of them, until they reached the highland wilderness and were able to ford the stream. When the pursuers tried to take the same route, a third stream (yamm), which had been fed by previous heavy rainfalls, gushed into their path and washed them away.
Furthermore, we remind you once again that the Israelites eventually inherited everything that Far„awn and his followers left behind. How else can we explain the following?:
{Mūsa said to his people: “Seek help with Allah, and be patient; the land is for Allah, He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the ending will be for the righteous”.* They said: “We were being harmed before you came to us and since you have come to us”. He said: “Perhaps your Rabb will destroy your enemy, and make you successors in the land, so He sees how you work?”}... [7:128,129].
102
 What About Ṭūr Seenā’?
One of the most important and fundamental keys to understanding Allah‟s signs in the Qur‟ān is to realize that there are no synonymous words in its vocabulary. The Qur‟ān is so precise in its usage of terms, that it is impossible to substitute one term for another and maintain the exact same meaning. In many cases, words that appear, at first glance, to be synonymous, might very well constitute a case of general versus specific. We have recently seen that baḥr and yamm are not exactly synonymous. Likewise, the terms rūḥ (spirit) and nafs (soul), often confused by the classical commentators, are nowhere near having the same meaning. Other examples of words thought to be synonymous are: ‘ām (year) and sanah (season or cycle); wālid (biological parent) and abb (general parent); ya„mal (to work) and yaf„al (to do); jabb (any general hole, pit or cavity) and bi‟r (well). Famous Andalusian scholar Ibn „Aṭiyyah once attested to this characteristic of the Qur‟ān by saying:
"وكتاب الله لو نزعت منه لفظة ، ثم أد رٌ لسان العرب ف أن وٌجد أحسن منها لم جٌُد".
Paraphrase: “If one term is removed from Allah‟s book, and the entire Arabic tongue is turned inside out in search for a better alternative to that term, none will be found”.
There is no compromise in the matter. Allah does not play games. It is the so-called Muslims who claimed the eloquent tongue (lisān) of the Qur‟ān is simply a superior example of the Classical Arabic language (lughah) of poetry, and started substituting and interchanging words here and there in their exegeses, claiming that they are synonymous. (Note, incidentally, how they mixed up the terms lisān and lughah, thinking them to be synonyms). They envisioned the Qur‟ān as some kind of show-down between Allah and the poets of Arabia, which Allah won in the end! In short, they have unknowingly made a mockery of the Divine Scripture.
Following the same logic as in our explanation of baḥr versus yamm, we come to another delicate issue: the difference between the terms jabal (mountain) and ṭūr. Understanding this difference is of paramount importance in order for us to determine just where Ṭūr Seenā‟ is actually located. The surprising thing we found when we read what the classical commentators said about this issue is that despite all their geographical confusion, they actually highlighted the distinction between the two terms. To give them due credit, let us list a few examples of what they wrote:
- In Tafseer al-Qurṭubi, we come across the following definition:
" قُهت : يِدَٚ تالأرض ان قًدّسة، ْٙٔ قزٚة شُعٛة عهٛ انسلاو، وقيل إن الطور كل جبل أنبت ، وما لا ينبت فليس
بطور."
103
Paraphrase: [“I say: Midian is in the Sanctified Land, and it is the village of Shu„ayb. And it has been said that the ṭūr is a mountain that sprouts plants. And that which does not sprout plants is not a ṭūr ].
- In the Tafseer of Ibn Katheer, we can read the following definition:
" قٌسم تعالى بمخلوقاته الدالة على قدرته العظ مٌة أن عذابه واقع بأعدائه وأنه لا دافع له عنهم. فالطور هو الجبل
الذي كٌون ف هٌ أشجار مثل الذي كلم الله عل هٌ موسى، وأرسل منه ع سٌى. وما لم كٌن ف هٌ شجر لا سٌمى طورا إنما
قٌال له جبل".
Paraphrase: “The Almighty swears by his creations, which are testaments to His great power, that chastisement shall fall upon His enemies, and that they cannot avert it. And the ṭūr is a mountain on which trees grow, like the one where Allah spoke to Mūsa, and from which „Eesa was sent forth. And that upon which are no trees is not called a ṭūr , but is called (simply) a mountain”.
It seems they had known the truth all along. There, straight from their own mouths, is the answer to this age-old puzzle: the difference between ṭūr and jabal is another case of general versus specific. Hence, every ṭūr is necessarily a mountain; but not every mountain is a ṭūr. A mountain that is covered with trees or vegetation in general, is called a ṭūr; whereas a towering, rocky, and barren feature is simply a jabal (plain mountain).
In fact, quite a few commentators who realized the implications of this difference between the two terms, vehemently rejected the theory that the Ṭūr Seenā‟ mentioned in the Bible and the Qur‟ān is the famous mountain located on the peninsula between Egypt and Palestine. Among those commentators was the prominent scholar Fakhruddeen al-Rāzi who, in his exegesis of the Qur‟ān, presented what he thought were strong arguments in favor of the Ṭūr being located near Jerusalem.
The advocates of the Palestinian Ṭūr theory actually thought that the Qur‟ān supported their argument, specifically in the following passage: {And a tree which emerges from Ṭūr Seenā‟; it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}…[23:20]. Their argument is that olives do not grow - nor did they ever grow - on the so-called “Sinai Peninsula”, which means that the Egyptian Ṭūr theory clearly contradicts the Qur‟ān. On the other hand, the “Blessed Land” (al-arḍ al-mubārakah), which they automatically assumed was Palestine, has plenty of olive trees all year round. In fact, the mountain in question, which overlooks Jerusalem, is called “the Mount of Olives”, and its peak is around 850 meters above sea level. Their conclusion was that Ṭūr Seenā‟ is in fact the Mount of Olives.

......


Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 25, 2018, 05:25:58 AM

Pazuzu's research continued 3:


What the proponents of the Mount of Olives didn‟t realize is that they had fallen under the influence of an old and fruitless Jewish debate regarding the true location of “Mount Sinai”; a debate that is still raging until today. In fact, some Jewish sects firmly believe that the Mount of Olives is “Mount Sinai”, where the Lord spoke to Mūsa. A more recent theory among Biblical scholars and academics has even placed Mount Sinai in the far north of Saudi Arabia, claiming that it is none other than the famous Jabal al-Lawz, a peculiar-looking mountain with a blackened peak, located near the city of Tabūk, not far from the Jordanian border. Still, others have claimed that Mount Sinai is somewhere in the Negev desert!
In fact, Paul, who invented Christianity, clearly states in one of his letters that Mount Sinai is in Arabia, without specifying where exactly. (Incidentally, it seems that Paul picked up much lore during his “mysterious” three-year sojourn in Arabia). Here follows is a passage from the New Testament:
105
Picture #23: Jabal-al-Lawz, near Tabūk (Saudi Arabia). It doesn‟t seem too green, does it?
For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to abondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children (Gal. 4 :22-25).
This is very interesting, isn't it? Paul is saying that Hāgar, the alleged bond maiden of Ibrāheem (P), is an allegory to the “bond of flesh” and to Mount Sinai itself, which is in Arabia. What is popularly called the “Sinai Pennisula” today was never a part of Arabia. In fact there is zero evidence that the peninsula was ever called by that name before the 4th Century AD.
If you think, dear reader, that the location of Mount Sinai is agreed upon - whether by scholars or by laymen - then you are gravely mistaken. All it takes is a bit of research on your part, whether on the internet, or in books of theology, and you will soon notice the heaps of conjecture and hearsay that our predecessors spewed forth concerning the location of this mountain. This has resulted in nominating no less than four different locations as possible candidates for the legendary landmark! Is it in Egypt, or in the Negev Desert? Or is it in Jerusalem? Or perhaps in Saudi Arabia?
Is it possible that Allah has purposely led humanity astray regarding this issue? Or has the shortcoming been on our part? The answer to this puzzle can be found in the Qur‟ān,
106
and is supported by a mysterious passage in the Bible, whose implications have just recently begun to dawn in the minds of scholars. First, let‟s see what the Qur‟ān says:
{By the Ṭūr * And a recorded Book * In parchment unrolled. * And the crowded Sanctuary * And the ceiling that is raised. * And the sea that is set aflame. * The retribution of your Rabb is unavoidable * Nothing can stop it}…[52:1-8].
The above passage begins with an oath sworn to Muḥammad (P), by the malā‟ikah of revelation, that the retribution of Allah is unavoidable. The malāi‟kah are evidently swearing by certain phenomena or geographical features that are well-known to Muḥammad: the green mountain (ṭūr), the Book that is being recorded on animal skins, the ancient and well-established Bayt (sanctuary), the sky that has been raised without pillars, and the sea under which flames erupt (meaning that Muḥammad lived in a land that - at some point not too long before his time - exhibited volcanic activity).
To all free-thinking believers who refuse to let their minds be enslaved by the understanding of the salaf, we ask the following: what does the Ṭūr (green mountain) have to do with the Bayt? Why are they both mentioned in the same context, in the same passage, and as part of the same oath? Has anyone ever deeply contemplated this? What do all these locations or characteristics have to do with Palestine or Egypt?
{And We sent down from the sky water in due measure, then We let it reside in the earth, and We are capable of taking it away.* So We brought forth for you gardens of palm trees and grapes, for which you will find many fruits and from it you will eat. * And a tree which emerges from the Ṭūr of Seenā‟, it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}…[23:18-21].
Who is being addressed in the above signs? Is it not Muḥammad (P) and his people? Are they not being asked to contemplate how Allah sends down rain for them to revive the land after its death? Are they not being asked to reflect on how that rain causes the earth to sprout palm trees and grapes for them to eat from? Did Allah not strike for them, as an example, the green, wooded slopes of Seenā‟? Does this not mean that Muḥammad (P) and his people resided very near that green mountain, and were well familiar with it? How then can it be in Palestine or in Egypt?
{By the fig and the olive * And Ṭūr Seeneen * And this secure country * We have created man in the best form * Then We returned him to the lowest of the low * Except those who have believed and done good works, they will have a reward that will not end * So what would make you deny the deen after this? * Is Allah not the Wisest of the wise?}…[95:1-8].
107
Which “secure country” is being spoken of in the above signs, and associated with the Ṭūr? Is it not the same country mentioned in the following?:
{I do swear by this country * And you are a dweller in this country * And a father and what he begets}…[90:1-3].
Who, other than Muḥammad (P), is being addressed here? If the Ṭūr is in Egypt, or Palestine, then why did Allah associate it with “the country”? And which country is it then? If, by now, you have jumped to the conclusion that the Ṭūr is near the city of Makkah, in the southern Ḥijāz, then you need to pause and think a bit: where, in the vicinity of Makkah, can we find green mountains? Are there any grape orchards, fig, olive, or pomegranate trees anywhere within 500 kilometers of that city?
When you read the precise details given to Muḥammad (P) in the Qur‟ān, regarding the place where Mūsa (P) had heard the divine call, you will immediately realize that Muḥammad (P) must have known that very spot like he knew the palm of his own hand:
{So when he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley at the blessed area of the tree: “O Mūsa it is I, Allah, the Rabb of all peoples”}…[28:30].
This fact is even more obvious in the following:
{And you (O Muḥammad) were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Mūsa. You were not a witness * And We established many nations, and many ages passed them by. And you were not living among the people of Midyan, reciting Our revelations to them. But We were to send messengers * And nor were you on the side of the Ṭūr when We called. But it is a mercy from your Rabb, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed}…[28:44-46].
To elaborate what we are saying, consider the following example: would someone, describing certain important past events to you, dear reader, say: “I was there, at the corner of Main Street and 12th Avenue, under the great elm tree. I saw it happen”, if that place wasn‟t in your own neighborhood or, at the very least, very familiar to you? What sense would such details make if it wasn‟t? Muḥammad knew very well where the Ṭūr was. It was in the secure country, in the vicinity of Midyan, to whose inhabitants Allah‟s messenger Shu„ayb (P) was sent in the bygone days. It was in Mūsa‟s very footsteps that Muḥammad walked. It cannot possibly be any other way.


Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 25, 2018, 06:47:36 AM
Minus substance, part 3 is a long statement.

Quote
{By the Ṭūr * And a recorded Book * In parchment unrolled. * And the crowded Sanctuary * And the ceiling that is raised. * And the sea that is set aflame. * The retribution of your Rabb is unavoidable * Nothing can stop it}…[52:1-8].
The above passage begins with an oath sworn to Muḥammad (P), by the malā‟ikah of revelation, that the retribution of Allah is unavoidable. The malāi‟kah are evidently swearing by certain phenomena or geographical features that are well-known to Muḥammad: the green mountain (ṭūr), the Book that is being recorded on animal skins, the ancient and well-established Bayt (sanctuary), the sky that has been raised without pillars, and the sea under which flames erupt (meaning that Muḥammad lived in a land that - at some point not too long before his time - exhibited volcanic activity).
To all free-thinking believers who refuse to let their minds be enslaved by the understanding of the salaf, we ask the following: what does the Ṭūr (green mountain) have to do with the Bayt? Why are they both mentioned in the same context, in the same passage, and as part of the same oath? Has anyone ever deeply contemplated this? What do all these locations or characteristics have to do with Palestine or Egypt?

Some information is given by oath to emphasize its certainty.

Oath is by five objects; one is singular Proper Noun; and other four are by Adjectival phrases. Second one is indefinite noun.

In Arabic Adjectival phrases the second noun depicts the characteristic of principal noun.

And swearing by At-Tur — [52:01]

And by a book, its characteristic is that it is written in a line on a qualitatively fine spread paper—[52:02-03]

And by the House, its prominent feature is that it is frequented - enlivened - vivified —[52:04]

And by the Canopy raised high—[52:05]

And by the Sea whose characteristic is that fuel is placed in it—[52:06]

We know concepts like Mountain, Mountain range, Mountain belt, Hill.

A Mountain range is a series of mountains or hills ranged in a line connected by high ground.

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.063/256.%20At%20Tur%20Toi%20Waw%20Ra/2.gif): It stems from Root: ط و ر.

Learned Ibn Faris [died 1005] described its primary signification in these words:

طور (مقاييس اللغة)

الطاء والواو والراء أصلٌ صحيحٌ يدلُّ على معنىً واحد، وهو الامتداد في شيءٍ من مكانٍ أو زمان. من ذلك طَوَار الدَّار، وهو الذي يمتدُّ معها من فِنائِها

That it leads to the perception of extent, span, and elongation of a thing with regard to space or time. An example of its application is to refer "the pavement, sidewalk of a house, dwelling which extends to its faraway courtyard.

Thereby in contrast to Jabal, a general noun describing mountains, the elongation of Jabal is Mountain range. Needless to say it is a range in the Peninsula of Sinai.

Mountain range is a series of mountains in a line connected with high land and is over some spread area on the surface of the Earth, and a book has written text in a line with space between the words on a spread paper.

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 26, 2018, 03:07:08 AM
Pazuzus' research continued  4

To the reader: I regret to have this in several parts, but those itnerested I am sure they will be able to follow the argument starting from the first quote. Of course, those who start from the point of view that the bible is infallible and that absolutely all that is in the Qur'an should be sumitted to what the Bible says, because the bible is the word of God and the Qur'an just the beggar poor relative that copied all from hthe holy bible, should not bother if they are not ready to take real research seriously.  Salaam




Pazuzu's:
"
On the other hand, the Qur‟an tells us that Muḥammad was sent forth after a seemingly long absence, a pause - so to speak - in the line of messengers. This fact is made evident by the following sign:
{O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to clarify for you after a respite in the messengers*; so that you cannot say: “No bearer of good news or warner has come to us”; for a bearer of good news and a warner has come to you; and Allah is capable of all things}…[5:19].
This is what the Qur‟an means when it tells us that Muḥammad was sent to a people whose fathers had not received any messengers. It is because many centuries had passed between Muḥammad and his predecessor. It does not mean that no messenger was ever sent to the distant ancestors who lived in the same land. How else can we reconciliate the apparent lack of messengers before Muḥammad on one hand, with the very clear signs that called on Muḥammad‟s own people to look upon the ruined homes of those nations who disobeyed their messengers, and who had occupied the same land wherein the Qur‟an was revealed?
By contrast, the previous messengers, all of whom were of one lineage, were sent to their peoples in relatively rapid succession, as is evident in the following:
{We sent Our messengers in succession. Every time there came to a nation their messenger, they denied him. So We made them follow one another, and We let them serve as narrated examples}...{23:44}.
Concerning Seenā‟, Ibn Manẓūr, author of Lisān’ul ‘Arab (Lit: The Arabic Tongue), says the following in his famous book:
[ ... فمن قرأ "س نٌاء" على وزن "صحراء"، فإنها لا تنصرف. ومن قرأ "س نٌاء"، فهو على وزن علباء، إلا أنه اسم
للبقعة، فلا نٌصرف. ول سٌ ف كلام العرب فعلاء بالكسر ممدود. الس نٌ نٌ ةٌّ : شجرة ؛ حكاه أبو حن فٌة عن الأخفش،
وجمعها س نٌ نٌ... [ .
In the above passage, Ibn Manẓūr discusses the difference (or the relation) between the terms Seenā‟ (as in Ṭūr Seenā‟), which appears in [23:20], and Seeneen (as in Ṭūr Seeneen), which appears in [95:2]. He suggests that Seenā‟ is the actual name of the area or the spot of land; whereas Seeneen is the plural of seeniniyyah, which is a type of tree.
In his book entitled (Lit) The Arabs, The Semites, the Hebrews, and the Children of Israel (1991), scholar and researcher Aḥmad Dāwūd says:
______________________________________________________________________________________
* The Arabic word used in this sign is fatrah ( فترة ) which conveys the meaning of a pause or a break in a succession of messengers.
109
[ إن طور س نٌا هو ف العرب ةٌ القد مٌة "طور س نٌ "ً، و عٌن جبل العلّ قٌ، ح ثٌ تجلّى الربّ لموسى ف نار العلّ قٌة
المشتعلة على الجبل، وخاطبه منها. ول سٌ المقصود به جبلا ف صحراء س نٌا الت لم تكن تعرف هذه التسم ةٌ ط لٌة
تار خٌها ما قبل الم لٌاد، وحتى القرن الرابع ما بعد المس حٌ [ .
Paraphrase: [Ṭūr Seenā‟ was known by its ancient name of Ṭūr Seeniy, and the name means “Mountain of Blackberries”. It is where Allah spoke to Mūsa in the fire of the burning blackberry tree. It has nothing to do with the present-day Sinai Peninsula, which was not known by that name until the Fourth Century AD].
What is worth noting here is Dāwūd‟s indication of a phenomenon that we will encounter very often on our quest to recover Arabia‟s lost history. This phenomenon consists of hijacking the names of locations (towns, mountains, rivers, etc…) or tribes - whether they are mentioned in the Qur‟ān or in the Old Testament - and projecting them onto geographical regions that have absolutely no connection to the original names whatsoever. Most notable among those names are: Seenā‟, Yathrib, Makkah, Bakkah, Midyan, and Miṣr. By the time we reach the end of our journey, we will have come across over a hundred examples of this fraud.
Despite the fact that we disagree with Aḥmad Dāwūd about the origin and meaning of the name Seenā‟ we have to give him credit regarding what he said about the famous peninsula having gotten its name sometime during the 4th Century AD. His observation is actually spot on. In fact, many Jewish and Christian scholars are pretty much unanimous that it was Emperor Constantine (died in 377 AD), who gave that Biblical name to the triangular peninsula lying between Egypt and Palestine. Among those scholars, for example, is John D. Keyser, who stated the following: “It has been a common belief in the Christian world, since the time of Constantine, that the so-called Sinai Peninsula is in fact the location of the legendary mountain mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments, and where God is said to have spoken to Moses. What the vast majority of people don‟t know is the fact that choosing the peninsula as the site of the Biblical mountain was in fact the result of Emperor Constantine‟s personal opinion”.
"



Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 26, 2018, 06:51:28 AM
What is the point in nutshell Pazazu tried to prove or disprove?
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 26, 2018, 11:17:35 PM
He is saying that "MISR" in Qur'an is not Egypt.

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 02:54:23 AM
He is saying that "MISR" in Qur'an is not Egypt.

Salaam

Thanks. Then what he thinks which country is Misr.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 27, 2018, 04:31:50 AM
It is incredible, ununderstandable that with all the things that according to Egypt haters happenned in Egyp or with Egypt to the the peoples, that not even once a great river is mentionned let alone a single time de word Nile, which would be quite conclusivee.

26.52ownards

Instead of it we have springs, not fountains, no, real springs, rivers in plural, and that country with all those things is given to the banu Israil take it over and live in it. And historians unaware of it, and even the bible, the dear old bible, unaware of it.

And supposed believers in the Qur'an fighting hard to uphold those truths and being ever so shocked that it should even be doubted.

Not only is Egypt full of little currents and rivers and springs and is a banana kingdom here the king has to send some guys to get a band to pursue the evaders because it has no army, no police no regular forces of any kind and has to recruit some for the occassion, but also shortly it is going to be taken over by the gang of evaders.

But what can one say? Who came first comes first, and the first to come has been the bible and the bible rules. Even against the very bible.

Salaam
 
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 27, 2018, 02:02:12 PM
Thanks. Then what he thinks which country is Misr.

I recall his article saying that Misr means a settlement or a small town. There is no specific country called Misr. There were many Misr at that time.

Present day "Egypt" used to be called "Gypt" in old times. Egypt is a twisted form of "Gypt".
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 02:14:04 PM
I recall his article saying that Misr means a settlement or a small town. There is no specific country called Misr. There were many Misr at that time.

Present day "Egypt" used to be called "Gypt" in old times. Egypt is a twisted form of "Gypt".

Grateful. But why he missed Pharaoh claiming:

وَنَادَىٰ فِرْعَوْنُ فِي قَوْمِهِ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَلَيْسَ لِي مُلْكُ مِصْرَ
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 27, 2018, 02:47:59 PM
Grateful. But why he missed Pharaoh claiming:

وَنَادَىٰ فِرْعَوْنُ فِي قَوْمِهِ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَلَيْسَ لِي مُلْكُ مِصْرَ

As per his research, فِرْعَوْنُ is not the ruler of Egypt but chief of a certain township (Misr).
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 03:31:32 PM
As per his research, فِرْعَوْنُ is not the ruler of Egypt but chief of a certain township (Misr).

Thanks. But did he explain by what argument he thought Mulk means a township instead of a kingdom or country.

I hope it is not bothering you.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 27, 2018, 05:01:54 PM
Thanks. But did he explain by what argument he thought Mulk means a township instead of a kingdom or country.

I hope it is not bothering you.

Not at all Mazhar Bhai. He did not say Mulk means township but he translated Mulk as control or rule of Misr- a township.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 27, 2018, 06:43:02 PM
Not at all Mazhar Bhai. He did not say Mulk means township but he translated Mulk as control or rule of Misr- a township.

You please advise whether Possessive Phrase  مُلْكُ مِصْرَ, which is subject noun of لَيْسَ and Prepositional Phrase is about elided predicate, could be taken as the Ruler of Misr.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 27, 2018, 09:27:54 PM
You please advise whether Possessive Phrase  مُلْكُ مِصْرَ, which is subject noun of لَيْسَ and Prepositional Phrase is about elided predicate, could be taken as the Ruler of Misr.

Lets take translation of 43:51 from your web site:

Know this fact, Fir'aoun/Pharaoh circulated proclamation/address within his Nation, he said,

"O my countrymen/nation, is the state/dominion of Misr [Unified country of Two Lands-now known as Egypt] not for me, and these streams of water are flowing by my side/underneath [which indicates and refers to his palace]? [Consider this and]

Will you people still not see/focus [about my superiority]? [43:51]

The meaning of dominion

dominion
[duh-min-yuh n]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for dominion on Thesaurus.com
noun
the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
rule; control; domination.
a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.

So مُلْكُ مِصْرَ means power of governing and controlling of Misr...the township.

I do not see issue with مُلْكُ but with "Misr" translated as Egypt. Pizazu has done extensive research and his findings are worth understanding.

Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 28, 2018, 12:23:58 AM
bearing in mind that the people of Musa in their wandering seemed to be having with them plenty of cows, we must remember the extensive pastures all over the Sinai peninsula for them to graze to their satisfaction.

Deserts are famous for cows pastures aren't they?


Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 28, 2018, 02:35:33 AM
Lets take translation of 43:51 from your web site:

Know this fact, Fir'aoun/Pharaoh circulated proclamation/address within his Nation, he said,

"O my countrymen/nation, is the state/dominion of Misr [Unified country of Two Lands-now known as Egypt] not for me, and these streams of water are flowing by my side/underneath [which indicates and refers to his palace]? [Consider this and]

Will you people still not see/focus [about my superiority]? [43:51]

The meaning of dominion

dominion
[duh-min-yuh n]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for dominion on Thesaurus.com
noun
the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
rule; control; domination.
a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.

So مُلْكُ مِصْرَ means power of governing and controlling of Misr...the township.

I do not see issue with مُلْكُ but with "Misr" translated as Egypt. Pizazu has done extensive research and his findings are worth understanding.

Salaam

That was the reason I gave in brackets the sense of the word dominion.

Thanks, your insights on his work have clarified to me what is his view point, reading with First part given by Huruf

Quote
The Israelites, led by Mūsa (P), fled Miṣr (a prominent walled citadel in ancient Yemen), at night. This is the essence of isrā' (the departure from a place in secrecy, without attracting attention). It was not until after Far„awn realized the Israelites had left, that he gathered a party of hunters from the nearby villages, and launched a full pursuit of what he called “a small band”. Would the great kings of Egypt, who lived in huge palaces with an army ready at their call, prepared to take on rival empires at any time, need to send callers to nearby villages to organize a search party? Would Ramses, Merneptah or Imhotep, personally take it upon themselves to chase a small band across the wilderness of Egypt?

Has he said something about this:

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.06b.gif)

Does he take Jundohum groups of villagers and who is Haman.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 28, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
That was the reason I gave in brackets the sense of the word dominion.

Thanks, your insights on his work have clarified to me what is his view point, reading with First part given by Huruf

Has he said something about this:

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.06b.gif)

Does he take Jundohum groups of villagers and who is Haman.

Thank brother Mazhar. I guess you should read his articles and see what he has researched. I do not remember every word he wrote because I read his article long time ago. Below is the link if you want read it:

https://www.quranite.com/wp-content/uploads/1st-E-Book_Search-for-Pharaoh.pdf

https://www.quranite.com/wp-content/uploads/2nd-E-Book_Road-of-the-Patriarch.pdf

https://www.quranite.com/wp-content/uploads/3rd-E-Book_Israel-and-Sheba.pdf

https://www.quranite.com/wp-content/uploads/4th-E-Book_The-Assyrian-Storm.pdf

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 28, 2018, 06:08:04 PM
Novice Thanks,

 
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 01:26:35 AM
Novice thanks.

I downloaded his work.

After talking at great length about the Book of Mormon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon)) he talks about (seems imaginative) a survey about two photographs 3 and 4 calling second which he calls an Arabian as probable Pharaoh.

Interestingly the photograph 4 can not even be considered of a man of Hijaz with that big turban and heavy dress. In peninsula of Arabia one cannot think of putting such heavy turban on head in scorching temperature.

Then he discusses about the origin of name Misr by borrowing hundred percent from a paper already on internet because I found it in my folder on Root Misr, exactly as he has written.

Please reflect on this para of him:

//This is why, in the entire text of the Qur’ān, we do not come across any mention of the
term Far‘awn either before or after Mūsa’s time. The proof is evident by reading Surah
12 of the Qur’ān, which recounts the story of the prophet Yūsuf (P). Allah’s book - which
99% of the Muslims have thrown behind their backs - tells us that the title of the ruler of
the place called Miṣr during Yūsuf’s time was al-malik (the king or supreme authority),
while his subordinate was given the title of al-‘azeez (meaning: “one who had high status
or power”, or something of the sort). There is no mention of Far‘awn anywhere in the
account of Yūsuf (P),
even though it is presumed that he lived, at most, some 150 years
before Mūsa ’s time.//

Yusuf alahissalam along with his father, mother, brothers and their families are admitted to have settled in Misr.  By the passing of time they turned into Bani Israel. And demand from Firaun was to let Bani Israeel go with Musa alahissalam.

He naively forgot or overlooked this speech:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ ذَرُونِي أَقْتُلْ مُوسَىٰ وَلْيَدْعُ رَبَّهُ ۖ إِنِّي أَخَافُ أَن يُبَدِّلَ دِينَكُمْ أَوْ أَن يُظْهِرَ فِي الْأَرْضِ الْفَسَادَ

وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ إِنِّي عُذْتُ بِرَبِّي وَرَبِّكُم مِّن كُلِّ مُتَكَبِّرٍ لَّا يُؤْمِنُ بِيَوْمِ الْحِسَابِ

وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ ۖ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ

يَا قَوْمِ لَكُمُ الْمُلْكُ الْيَوْمَ ظَاهِرِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَمَن يَنصُرُنَا مِن بَأْسِ اللَّهِ إِن جَاءَنَا ۚ قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ مَا أُرِيكُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَرَىٰ وَمَا أَهْدِيكُمْ إِلَّا سَبِيلَ الرَّشَادِ

وَقَالَ الَّذِي آمَنَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُم مِّثْلَ يَوْمِ الْأَحْزَابِ

مِثْلَ دَأْبِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَعَادٍ وَثَمُودَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ ۚ وَمَا اللَّهُ يُرِيدُ ظُلْمًا لِّلْعِبَادِ

وَيَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُمْ يَوْمَ التَّنَادِ

يَوْمَ تُوَلُّونَ مُدْبِرِينَ مَا لَكُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ مِنْ عَاصِمٍ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ

وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ يُوسُفُ مِن قَبْلُ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَمَا زِلْتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا جَاءَكُم بِهِ ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا هَلَكَ قُلْتُمْ لَن يَبْعَثَ اللَّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ رَسُولًا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ مُّرْتَابٌ

It is Chapter 40
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 29, 2018, 03:18:46 AM
Interestingly the photograph 4 can not even be considered of a man of Hijaz with that big turban and heavy dress. In peninsula of Arabia one cannot think of putting such heavy turban on head in scorching temperature.

Brother Mazhar as I recall his research shows that scene of Misr was southern Arabian Peninsula around Yemen area. Turbans are still worn in that area. Please google Sultan Qaboos and see how he looks in his pictures.

Then he discusses about the origin of name Misr by borrowing hundred percent from a paper already on internet because I found it in my folder on Root Misr, exactly as he has written.

I cannot speak on his behalf. So I dont know if he borrowed from some other research paper.

Yusuf alahissalam along with his father, mother, brothers and their families are admitted to have settled in Misr.  By the passing of time they turned into Bani Israel. And demand from Firaun was to let Bani Israeel go with Musa alahissalam.

Does Quran confirms this statement? If not how it is admitted and by whom?

He naively forgot or overlooked this speech:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ ذَرُونِي أَقْتُلْ مُوسَىٰ وَلْيَدْعُ رَبَّهُ ۖ إِنِّي أَخَافُ أَن يُبَدِّلَ دِينَكُمْ أَوْ أَن يُظْهِرَ فِي الْأَرْضِ الْفَسَادَ

وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ إِنِّي عُذْتُ بِرَبِّي وَرَبِّكُم مِّن كُلِّ مُتَكَبِّرٍ لَّا يُؤْمِنُ بِيَوْمِ الْحِسَابِ

وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ ۖ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ

يَا قَوْمِ لَكُمُ الْمُلْكُ الْيَوْمَ ظَاهِرِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَمَن يَنصُرُنَا مِن بَأْسِ اللَّهِ إِن جَاءَنَا ۚ قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ مَا أُرِيكُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَرَىٰ وَمَا أَهْدِيكُمْ إِلَّا سَبِيلَ الرَّشَادِ

وَقَالَ الَّذِي آمَنَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُم مِّثْلَ يَوْمِ الْأَحْزَابِ

مِثْلَ دَأْبِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَعَادٍ وَثَمُودَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ ۚ وَمَا اللَّهُ يُرِيدُ ظُلْمًا لِّلْعِبَادِ

وَيَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُمْ يَوْمَ التَّنَادِ

يَوْمَ تُوَلُّونَ مُدْبِرِينَ مَا لَكُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ مِنْ عَاصِمٍ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ

وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ يُوسُفُ مِن قَبْلُ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَمَا زِلْتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا جَاءَكُم بِهِ ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا هَلَكَ قُلْتُمْ لَن يَبْعَثَ اللَّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ رَسُولًا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ مُّرْتَابٌ

It is Chapter 40

Sorry brother I could not see how it confirms that Prophet Yusuf was in Egypt.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2018, 03:34:47 AM
And haw many gates were there to enter Egypt and how far one from another?
وَقَالَ يَا بَنِيَّ لَا تَدْخُلُوا مِن بَابٍ وَاحِدٍ وَادْخُلُوا مِنْ أَبْوَابٍ مُّتَفَرِّقَةٍ ۖ وَمَا أُغْنِي عَنكُم مِّنَ اللَّـهِ مِن شَيْءٍ ۖ إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّـهِ ۖ عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ ۖ وَعَلَيْهِ فَلْيَتَوَكَّلِ الْمُتَوَكِّلُونَ ﴿٦٧﴾


And he said: O my sons! Go not in by one gate; go in by different gates. I can naught avail you as against Allah. Lo! the decision rests with Allah only. In Him do I put my trust, and in Him let all the trusting put their trust. (67)




Salaam
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 03:35:18 AM
Brother Mazhar as I recall his research shows that scene of Misr was southern Arabian Peninsula around Yemen area. Turbans are still worn in that area. Please google Sultan Qaboos and see how he looks in his pictures.

I cannot speak on his behalf. So I dont know if he borrowed from some other research paper.

Does Quran confirms this statement? If not how it is admitted and by whom?

Sorry brother I could not see how it confirms that Prophet Yusuf was in Egypt.

No, it is not to say that. Only the point that Misr is the same place where the Ruler is mentioned by Malik in the days of Yusuf alahissalam and the same Misr is the place where Firaun  was mentioned as the Ruler in the days of Musa alahissalm.

So the title of the Ruler is different in the same Misr in two periods of history.

We will later see in Qur'aan that this Misr is the same Misr of today, also called Egypt.

 
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2018, 03:41:16 AM
Bible, yes bible über alles.

Never mind, what the Qur'an says, what the Qur'an does not say, the bible says, that is the en dof it.
Egypt is called Misr. Please reproduce here the earliest quotation in Arabic referring to Egypt with such a name and without any great river let alone Nile.

Misr in arabic has a meaning and a meaning that is applied more specifically today to Cairo, and only by extension to the whole of Egypt but in fact it refers to Cairo, mainly by people, because main city is called misr or rather masr.

But there was no masr in ancient Egypt.

Bible, bible über alles and don with Qur'an. My God.

Salaam
 

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 29, 2018, 11:56:01 AM
No, it is not to say that. Only the point that Misr is the same place where the Ruler is mentioned by Malik in the days of Yusuf alahissalam and the same Misr is the place where Firaun  was mentioned as the Ruler in the days of Musa alahissalm.

So the title of the Ruler is different in the same Misr in two periods of history.

We will later see in Qur'aan that this Misr is the same Misr of today, also called Egypt.

There are few assumptions here namely:

Misr is the name of a place....whereas Misr is an Arabic word from root م ص ر with the meaning "a partition between two things.

Firaun is a title and not a name.....background is that pharaoh was the title of rulers of Egypt. Is Firaun=Pharaoh?
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 02:29:06 PM
There are few assumptions here namely:

Misr is the name of a place....whereas Misr is an Arabic word from root م ص ر with the meaning "a partition between two things.

Firaun is a title and not a name.....background is that pharaoh was the title of rulers of Egypt. Is Firaun=Pharaoh?

No assumptions. In a book which says it is explicitly explicit, it cant leave things for assumptions.


مفردات ألفاظ القرآن — الراغب الأصفهاني (٥٠٢ هـ

مصر  المِصْرُ اسم لكلّ بلد ممصور، أي: محدود

That it is name for any any land with defined boundaries and walled.

Lane Lexicon: The area between two things. A partition or a barrier or thing intervening between two things. Limit or boundary between two lands.

In Qur'aan it is stated as a walled locality/city by mentioning entrance/door(s). So it is a place where people lived.

One is particularized by reference to a person referred as Fir'auan.

Both are diptotes showing as if both are of non-Arabic origin.

We will see in Qur'aan who was he and where was he living. It is whether Name or Title that will make little difference in identifying him since subjects of a king know more his title than the personal name.

It will be very poor for us if we cannot identify a person whose name or title is second to one Noun by count of mention in Qur'aan in the word category of Proper Nouns,

There must be something especial and unique to this King, than all the kings who preceded him in history, that in the category of Proper Nouns his Name finds mention maximum number of times (74) only less than the elevated Messenger Musa alahissalam whose name finds mention 136 times.

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 29, 2018, 02:46:28 PM
No assumptions. In a book which says it is explicitly explicit, it cant leave things for assumptions.


مفردات ألفاظ القرآن — الراغب الأصفهاني (٥٠٢ هـ

مصر  المِصْرُ اسم لكلّ بلد ممصور، أي: محدود

That it is name for any any land with defined boundaries and walled.

Lane Lexicon: The area between two things. A partition or a barrier or thing intervening between two things. Limit or boundary between two lands.

In Qur'aan it is stated as a walled locality/city by mentioning entrance/door(s). So it is a place where people lived.

One is particularized by reference to a person referred as Fir'auan.

Both are diptotes showing as if both are of non-Arabic origin.

We will see in Qur'aan who was he and where was he living. It is whether Name or Title that will make little difference in identifying him since subjects of a king know more his title than the personal name.

It will be very poor for us if we cannot identify a person whose name or title is second to one Noun by count of mention in Qur'aan in the word category of Proper Nouns; 74 times in 27 chapters while his contemporary Musa alahissalm is first by 136 mentions.

Thank you Mazhar. I love to learn the truth so waiting to see how you conclude Misr=Egypt.

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 02:56:35 PM
Thank you Mazhar. I love to learn the truth so waiting to see how you conclude Misr=Egypt.

I will try to restrict strictly to academic rules and principles of studying a book without preconceived notions and influences of the works done earlier on the subject.
No assumptions, no far fetched inferences, no insertion of meanings different than the Lexicons, and no lessening of semantics of a word; e.g. Form-V or Form VIII must not be translated by equating with basic form.
Each word in the original text is a pearl embedded at its proper place - it can't be substituted with another Arabic word to render it in English.
Elisions in source text nor anaphora resolution will be overlooked. Allah the Exalted so willing.

I will need your help for scrutiny and insights.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 29, 2018, 03:11:52 PM
Thank you. I am just a student taking every opportunity to learn, I will in sha'a Allah pitch in what Allah has shown me so far.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 03:28:40 PM
In the hope that you will certainly help, let us begin with: Fir'aoun (Pharaoh for ease of generally referred word otherwise we restrict to source text name).

This Proper Name finds mention in Grand Qur’ān 74 times in 27 Chapters. The person by this Name (or Title, since Kings are known to the majority of their subjects mostly by Title and they are mostly addressed by their honorific title) is mentioned exclusively in the narrative of history period relating to the life of elevated Messenger Musa alahissalam, since his childhood to the death of this King.

Classical Lexicons mentioned its Root as: ف ر ع ن. Lane's Lexicon translated the classical Arabic Lexicons in these words:
 {He (a man, TA) affected the nature, or disposition, of the فَرَاعِنَة [pl. of فِرْعَوْنُ, and here meaning such as are inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving, &c., as were the Pharaohs]. (S, * K, TA.) فَرْعَنَةٌ  Cunning; i. e. intelligence, or sagacity; or intelligence mixed with craft and forecast; (S, K, TA;) and pride, haughtiness, or insolence. (TA.) فِرْعَوْنُ  [Pharaoh;] the surname of El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab, king of Egypt: (S:) or the surname of every king of Egypt: (K:) or it signifies, (K,) or signifies also, (S,) [app. used as a proper name,] anyone inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving; (S, K;) insolent and audacious in acts of rebellion or disobedience, or extravagant therein and in wrongdoing:] unquote

A three radical Root: ف ر ع also denotes as Lane's Lexicon translates it: Its primary signification is: He overtopped, or surpassed in height or tallness: in eminence, or nobility,

We find in Qur'aan his first characteristic exactly matching the concept of rendition of his name in Arabic:

We recite unto you the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] the narrative of the history relating to Mūsā [alai'his'slaam] and Fir'aoun (Pharaoh), truthfully, for the people who believe. [28:03]

إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ
Indeed Fir'aoun (Pharaoh) had exalted himself in the Land (which land not mentioned here by name or specification);

And he had rendered its society segmented in few classes—

By design he kept causing weakening a group of them;

He used to slaughter their sons and let their women live.

Indeed he was of those who cause distortions and create imbalances/in-equilibrium. [28:04]

The verbal sentence: عَلَا  comprising of  Verb: Perfect; Third person; Singular; Masculine; [intransitive];  Subject Pronoun hidden referent to Fir'aoun is the true depiction of his Arabic name/title. Its verbal noun is; مصدر-عُلُوٌ stemming from Root: ع ل و. It leads to the perception of eminence, loftiness, sublimity, elevation, exaltation, and up-rise; such exaltation and grandeur that nothing can deviate from it.


(مقاييس اللغة)
(عَلَوَ) الْعَيْنُ وَاللَّامُ وَالْحَرْفُ الْمُعْتَلُّ يَاءً كَانَ أَوْ وَاوًا أَوْ أَلِفًا، أَصْلٌ وَاحِدٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى السُّمُوِّ وَالِارْتِفَاعِ، لَا يَشِذُّ عَنْهُ شَيْءٌ
Lane Lexicon: It (a thing, Msb) was, or became, high, elevated, or lofty; he was, or became, high, or elevated, or exalted, in dignity, or nobility

And indeed We had rescued Bani Iesraa'eel from the humiliating torture/anguish— [44:30]
They were suffering from Fir'aoun (Pharaoh).

Indeed he (Fir'aoun/Pharaoh) had made himself the top most of the transgressors -  unjust rulers. [44:31]

It is the judgement of Allah the Exalted. Evaluee about whom judgement is made is Fir'aun. He is placed in the highest negative evaluation that he had become the top most transgressor and unjust ruler. He was warned by Mūsā [alai'his'slaam] about his extreme abnormality:

And that you people should not exalt yourselves defiantly against command of Allah the Exalted;
 
Indeed I have come to you with manifest authority; [44:19]

And indeed I have already taken refuge with the Sustainer Lord of me and the Sustainer Lord of you people that you could hurl harm to me. [44:20]
 
And if you have not yet decided to believe me, thereby, consciously keep yourselves aloof from me." [44:21]

(He was sent to give message to Fir'aoun and his chieftains, Haman and Qaroon in particular).

Can we believe that merely enslaving a segment of populace of his kingdom and treating them harshly could earn him the condemnation of top transgressor since many would have done this even in recent history?

So there should be something else.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 29, 2018, 03:30:50 PM
Thank you. I am just a student taking every opportunity to learn, I will in sha'a Allah pitch in what Allah has shown me so far.

I am also purely a student. Only students can learn seeking help from each other.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on September 29, 2018, 10:41:36 PM
Classical Lexicons mentioned its Root as: ف ر ع ن. Lane's Lexicon translated the classical Arabic Lexicons in these words:
 {He (a man, TA) affected the nature, or disposition, of the فَرَاعِنَة [pl. of فِرْعَوْنُ, and here meaning such as are inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving, &c., as were the Pharaohs]. (S, * K, TA.) فَرْعَنَةٌ  Cunning; i. e. intelligence, or sagacity; or intelligence mixed with craft and forecast; (S, K, TA;) and pride, haughtiness, or insolence. (TA.) فِرْعَوْنُ  [Pharaoh;] the surname of El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab, king of Egypt: (S:) or the surname of every king of Egypt: (K:) or it signifies, (K,) or signifies also, (S,) [app. used as a proper name,] anyone inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving; (S, K;) insolent and audacious in acts of rebellion or disobedience, or extravagant therein and in wrongdoing:] unquote

Qur'an, as the criteria, describes character of Firaun. Do we have any historical ae well as archaeological evidence to prove that El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab was the king of Egypt. Is this an Arabic name or ancient Egyptian name of Pharaoh?


Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on September 30, 2018, 01:45:03 AM
Qur'an, as the criteria, describes character of Firaun. Do we have any historical ae well as archaeological evidence to prove that El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab was the king of Egypt. Is this an Arabic name or ancient Egyptian name of Pharaoh?

Lexicon has not given details or even period if he was actually a king. Thereby it is not important. Actual one is he mentioned in Qur'an.
Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Novice on October 01, 2018, 12:52:33 AM
Lexicon has not given details or even period if he was actually a king. Thereby it is not important. Actual one is he mentioned in Qur'an.

But you were to base our discussion on lexicons along with Quran and Arabic grammar and now you wrote it is not important.

Here is some information about disputed Egyption forklore:

 https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610352.0;topicseen

Title: Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
Post by: Mazhar on October 01, 2018, 01:59:30 AM
But you were to base our discussion on lexicons along with Quran and Arabic grammar and now you wrote it is not important.

Here is some information about disputed Egyption forklore:

 https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610352.0;topicseen

I said about that segment in which he quoted name of a person. Not about the meaning of Root. Meanings given in lexicons can be cross verified by its usage in Qur'aan.

Both the works referred in Link are just thoughts in vacuity, no relation with Qur'aan.