Free Minds

The name Isra'iil appears 43 times in the Qur'an, 42 of them as part of the compound Bani Isra'iil, and a single, lonely one time s the name by itself, in an enumeration after the name of Ibrahim. It appears as if the reaso for the lonely appearance would be to be able to then bring us the 42 times of the bani Isra'iil.

I have my on idea of ho are bani Isra'iil and I will make no mystery of it, we all are bani Isra'iil, but what or who is that lonely Isra'iil lost in an unconspicuous enumaration of the many there are in the Qur'an.

So anybody has any idea or can point out something?

PLEASE NO BIBLE

I think e all, at least those brought up as christians know the bible ell enough to rite for the hundredthoussandth time the Bible story. No use in birnging it up again, unless it really holds something helpful to see int he Qur'an.

All the damage and deformation brought into the Qur'an by bible stuff has made me painfully alergical to it and it invariably results in not getting any further with whatever is being dealt with, since the bible solves it all.   

Fine by itself, but please not mixing with the Qur'an.

Thank you. 

Salaam

If i recall, Bani Isra'iil were never called Jews/Yahud in the Qur'an.

Quote from: The Sardar on September 13, 2018, 09:39:01 AM
If i recall, Bani Isra'iil were never called Jews/Yahud in the Qur'an.

I have not looked at it in particular, but I have the impression that one thing is allathina haadu and another are the bani Isra'iil


Salaam

Quote from: huruf on September 13, 2018, 09:57:30 AM
I have not looked at it in particular, but I have the impression that one thing is allathina haadu and another are the bani Isra'iil


Salaam

Salam/Peace Huruf.

Alif-Siin-Ra = to make captive, prisoner, joint/ligament/frame/vigour/energy.

asara vb. (1) impf. act. 33:26

asir n.m. (pl. asra/asara) 2:85, 8:67, 8:70, 76:8

asr n.m. 76:28

isra'il n. 2:40, 2:47, 2:83, 2:122, 2:211, 2:246, 3:49, 3:93, 3:93, 5:12, 5:32, 5:70, 5:72, 5:78, 5:110, 7:105, 7:134, 7:137, 7:138, 10:90, 10:90, 10:93, 17:2, 17:4, 17:101, 17:104, 19:58, 20:47, 20:80, 20:94, 26:17, 26:22, 26:59, 26:297, 27:76, 32:23, 40:53, 43:59, 44:30, 45:16, 46:10, 61:6, 61:14

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages: 94, 95  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=asr

Best if we check out the verses contain Bani Isra'iil

I do not think it is root A-s-r but s-r-y and masdar of form IV  israa'   like islam or ihsan

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on September 13, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
I do not think it is root A-s-r but s-r-y and masdar of form IV  israa'   like islam or ihsan

Salaam

Siin-Ra-Ya?

Siin-Ra-Ya = to travel during the night, to depart/pass. asra - to make anyone to travel by night, repair to an upland. sarat - highest point, summit. sariyyan - rivulet, fountain, stream, chief of the nation.

sara vb. (1)
impf. act. 89:4

sariy n.m. 19:24

asra vb. (4)
perf. act. 17:1
impv. 11:81, 15:65, 20:77, 26:52, 44:23

LL, V4, p: 79, 80  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=sry

Peace huruf.
I will use Qoran{
1- Abraham had a son called "Ishaq!, then a grandson called"Yaqub".
2_ Yaqub had sons "  Brothers of  Usuf" and they settled in "Misr" under the Kingdom of Misr /
3- Beni Israeel were first mentioned with Moses ,they were servants /slaves to the Pharoah of misr.

The common factor of Misr  and the sons of Yaqub settling there makes a "beni Yaqub" tribe living there and a "Beni Israeel" tribe being there years later at the time of Moses can only mean the two are the same tribe. 
Since Qoran switches to "Beni Israeel" at the time of Moses and does not specify who is Israeel one can conclude that Yaqub and Israeel must be the same person.
The only possibility I can get at.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Quote from: huruf on September 13, 2018, 09:07:15 AM
The name Isra'iil appears 43 times in the Qur'an, 42 of them as part of the compound Bani Isra'iil, and a single, lonely one time s the name by itself, in an enumeration after the name of Ibrahim. It appears as if the reaso for the lonely appearance would be to be able to then bring us the 42 times of the bani Isra'iil.

Salaam
You are probably speaking about this verse
19:58 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.

But there is also this one

3:93 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say: ?Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.?

where Israel is presented as a "guy" who forbids things for himself without instructions from Allah. What a strange messenger ? isn't it ?

Now i will add questions.
It was said to us that "arabs" are descent to a "guy" called Ismail, son of a woman called hagar.
the question is why Quran never speaks to banu ismaeel and prefers to adress the banu israeel ?
why Quran dont relates us story about "ismael", what he did and his family ?


Another linked question.
If Allah have only one deen that is islam, and if all messengers before Muhammah were muslims and if Allah never mention a religion called judaism then:

what is judaism ?
who are Jews in quran if this word exist in Quran ? and if not exists then who are yahood and who are allathina hadoo ?

of course i have also my responses but it will be difficult to accept for readers here and it will be difficult to expose without bible and history and with only quran. it is really a hard work to expose all.
let say that in what we call now "muslims", there is banu israel, there is also yahood and there is also allathina hadoo.


5:101 O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if clarified, would harm you - and if you ask about them with the Qur?an being revealed, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.


Peace

Odd, half of NoShirk's text is missing.

Salam,



10:90 clearly affirms that banii Israila are muslimima when Firaun says so:

10:90 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said: "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted (muslimina).

(And btw i think it is the only moment when "bani" is used in nominative (banuu) regarding "bani Israila").

And I cant recall any verse stating that banii Israila are the yahudu, but as other brothers pointed out, in 19:58 and 3:93 he seems to be a person named beside Abraham, before the revelation of Tawra who had descendants (i dont know in which sense).

Brother Noshrik I encourage you to share your knowledge and point of view. It would be really interesting. Thank you

Quote from: Bikrun on September 14, 2018, 12:51:33 PM
Salam,



10:90 clearly affirms that banii Israila are muslimima when Firaun says so:

10:90 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said: "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted (muslimina).

(And btw i think it is the only moment when "bani" is used in nominative (banuu) regarding "bani Israila").

And I cant recall any verse stating that banii Israila are the yahudu, but as other brothers pointed out, in 19:58 and 3:93 he seems to be a person named beside Abraham, before the revelation of Tawra who had descendants (i dont know in which sense).

Brother Noshrik I encourage you to share your knowledge and point of view. It would be really interesting. Thank you

Salam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while! Yes as i said before, i have not seen a verse calling Bani Isra'ill yahudu. And sister Bikrun found a verse conforming that they were muslims/peacemakers.

I thank you all for your answers, they are helpful and make the subject more lively and interesting.

I missed the israa'iil in 3.92. Thank you.

At any rate in this case as in others I have become suspicious of what traditionally are called proper names int he Qur'an because once that label is pinned on a word, then it seems that we are precluded from seeing any meaning in it.

I personally think that the words I am calling into question are full of meaning, a meaning which is important for us now and ever, I would say.

In israa'iil I see very plainly the word `israa` which has a clear qura'nic meaning. In fact it is the title of a sura which it seems is also known for a second title as bani `sraa`iil

For me there is no doubt that the gist of  the question is in the israa' part. Those who travel by night. Germanic people have a celebration in autumn when they go outside with candles and they sing, like they travel by night seeking the light and they are going "HOME". It is a spiritual celebration. I do not know if the halloween of about the same dates has the same origin, but as I have lived the germanic thing in Austria and amongst the swiss it is really serious, moving and beautiful, very heartfelt and quiet. 

I cannot but see in the `israa' the same spiritual meaning, the quest for the divine light.

So the thing I am still seeking is the "iil" part. Smoke is coming out of my head from trying to find the grammatical morphological support to the compound `israa`iil.
At one time I thought the iil might be what comes in the dictionnaries as "ill" with the meaning of pact or compact, but there is a double lam which obviously in `israa`iil is not there, neither it is there in for instance `ismaa3iil which is exactly the same word form as `israa`il, a masdar of form IV + iil.

What I have been able to find which would come closer would be a noun of root Alif-w-l, from which the word `aal, like `aal 3imraan, derives.

So the bani `israa`iil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou bani `israa`iil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where  we are going.

I would be very thankful for any help with the morphological grammar part of the question that I have mentionned. 

As to the person named `israa`iil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.

Salaam and thank you again.

Sardar I think there is an issue with your browser not displaying certain characters

Quote from: Cerberus on September 14, 2018, 04:06:21 PM
Sardar I think there is an issue with your browser not displaying certain characters

Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.

Quote from: huruf on September 14, 2018, 03:38:18 PM



So the bani `israa`iil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou bani `israa`iil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where  we are going.

As to the person named `israa`iil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.

Salam,

Interesting point, please share if you get deeper into it.

Maybe the next will help:


2:37   Adam then received words from his Lord, so He forgave him; He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.
2:38   We said: "Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
2:39   And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.
2:40   "O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I had bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and reverence Me alone.
2:41   And believe in what I have sent down, affirming what is with you, and do not be the first to disbelieve in it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware"


Bani Israila have nothing to do with yahudu. Bani Israil were sent a revelation to confirm what is with them already (??) and maybe they have been there since Adam (??) or at least they are from the first groups of humans (or from the firt kinds of individuals, I dont know) since the "I" from 2:40 is addressing them directly and telling them not to be the first (awwala) to disbelieve. Let's see then what "Israil" means and maybe just maybe that Israel in bani Israila is just a coincidence with the prophet Israil in 3:92

QuoteSalam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while!

Salam, brother!  :group: Yeeeees, it is been a hard long while but thanks God everything is fine  :pr

Quote from: The Sardar on September 15, 2018, 01:00:22 AM
Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.

,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on September 15, 2018, 05:28:16 AM
,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.

Salaam

NEIN! :)

Now in 3:93 is something that has on my mind:

3:93 كل الطعام كان حلا لبنى اسراءيل الا ما حرم اسراءيل علىا نفسه من قبل ان تنزل التورىاة قل فاتوا بالتورىاة فاتلوها ان كنتم صادقين

Now if you see this 2 Isra'ill is i marked with colors with green & red.

Red is the Bani Isra'ill which is a genitive proper noun is of course referring to the tribe of Isra'ill where as the green one is the person named Isra'ill which the grammar form is a nominative proper noun.

Now here is something i noticed.

All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tawrat was sent down.
Kullu alttaAAami kanahillan libanee isra-eela illa ma harramaisra-eelu AAala nafsihi min qabli an tunazzala alttawratu

Noticed the phrase qabli an tunazzala alttawratu/before the Tawrat was sent down. Does this mean that Bani Isra'ill existed before Tawrat was sent down by Allah/God (SWTAY)? Correct me if i am wrong. Salam/Peace.

Salaam
OK.
i will summarize and i will not use conditional since all is my own point of view

isra is something like travel in secret/by night.
el for me mean people like al firauon

isreal, for me represent the priesthood. That is "people" who put themselves on the track of true messengers searching for opportunities for themselves.
Priesthood is equal to false prophecy since all the time they says "allah says and son on" and Allah never said what they says.
We have to distinguish word Rabb from Word Allah. Rabb mean educator withe Allah means "The God".
There is only one Rabb means not to take others Rabbs. Rabbis, riba and Rabb are same root.

banu is not descent but means educated by. walad is biological descent.
so banu israel point to all people astrayed by false prophecy of Israel. Banu Israel make shirk by mixing teaching of God with teaching of Israel.
When Moses said to Firaoun "arsil" banu Israel with me, that doesn't mean send them with me to another country but a reference to his "messenship" (arsil and rassol same root). So Moses asked Firaoun to let him teach to people astrayed bu Israel. however Firaoun declared he is the Rabb (that is educator and not God). Please check the speach of the good guy in people of firaon who clearly determine that people of Firaoun recognized Yusuf as prophet.
As Borther Pazuzu showed, All this story was somewhere in Yemen and not in Egypt.

In the bible, "Israel" took the place of Jacob after a fight with an angel. It is allegorical.
and he cheated his father Isaac to become prophet in place of his brother Esau. Rabbis presents Esau as the father of "occident/christianity"

What "Israel" want is power and money and uses religion for that.
Israel  is from antiquity searching to establish kingdom of Israel.

Israel never existed as a person.

At opposite Ismael is the people (el) who (listen). In fact it represent the true followers of God. Since there is no priesthood in Ismael, people educated by Ismael have no sense and banu Ismael had no sense. I think also that Ismael perhaps never existed as person

Yahood represent Ya hood that is people who call themselves the guided ones. In fact yahood consider themselves guided since they are born. They can be even atheist. Religion for them is just cultural identity. They are not considered as believers even if they says so. No paradise for them.

Allathina Haadoo is another concept. It can be traduced by "who were guided", so we cannot decide if they are still guided or not. They are true believers in god but can do many mistakes since they also be banu Israel. However they are a mix of good and bad persons.


to expose and justify my opinion, it would take many time and it is a debate "for specialists"

However let see things from another side.
Actual Tawrat/Torah is not a revealed book. Tawr mean a messenger accepted by both sender and receiver.
Actual Torah can be considered as a mix of teaching of Allah and Israel.
I don't know how the mix was done.

But it is interesting how Israel changed "the story" comparing with Quran.
In Quran there is no Esau, no Hagar, no expulsion of Ismael by Abraham.

But there is as story hidden in all this.
An allegorical anthropomorphism.
And never forget in what will follows that it is point of view of Israel, that all is reverted, and that in Quran Issac and Jacob were good guys.

Let says that Abraham represents God.
God has a first child (Ismael).
The mother of Isaac (the second child) asked Abraham to expulse Ismael (compare with expulsion of Ibliss from paradise).

Isaac has a strange name. Root points to destruction.

Isaac has tow childs (Esau and Jacob). Esau (probably same root as Issa) represents the circumcision of the heart (spiritual approach of religion like many quranists here) and Jacob the classic circumcision  (that is a religion based on ritualism like prostrating 5 a days toward a kaabb in stone).
the fight for prophecy between Esau and Israel is a prefiguration of the fight between Christ and antichrist.

But the true religion is Ismael. Not Spirituality and not ritualism.

Really, it is too hard to expose this. And in english, it is quite impossible for me.



Peace

Quote from: noshirk on September 15, 2018, 03:00:39 PM
We have to distinguish word Rabb from Word Allah. Rabb mean educator withe Allah means "The God".
There is only one Rabb means not to take others Rabbs. Rabbis, riba and Rabb are same root.

Rabbis is English not Arabic. Root of riba is not ر ب ب but ر ب و .

Peace noshirk.
Nice to see you active here. Welcome back.

The following is telling a story about "Beni Israeel". Some group living with Moses at his time?:
Starting here-2:40 يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَوفوا بِعَهدى أوفِ بِعَهدِكُم وَإِيّٰىَ فَارهَبونِ
and ending here-2:123 وَاتَّقوا يَومًا لا تَجزى نَفسٌ عَن نَفسٍ شَيـًٔا وَلا يُقبَلُ مِنها عَدلٌ وَلا تَنفَعُها شَفٰعَةٌ وَلا هُم يُنصَرونَ
True events that took place with a tribe under the leadership of Moses!

I do not see the whole story as allegorical although it has many lessons to be learned.
This tribe is a community at that time that lived in Misr and went through the adventure of rescue with Moses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Thank you, noshirk, for the long explanation. It is some work you have done to put all of that together and write it in a message. I appreciate it. I will give time to considering it, since there are things which may be orthwhile considering.

As it is now, my idea is that given that `israa` is a common name and that the concept exists in all spiritual paths, I cannot take it as something that pertains to a tribe in particular but that rather it refers to any tribe, any collective, any group, that comes from a tradition where the concept of `israa` exists.

I have received from friend confirmation that iil is an old Arabic name of God and also that it might be a contraction of ilayhi, to him, so that the compound word `israa`iil would mean the travel from the night to Him, which makes a lot of sense, and that is the whole meaning of al `israa`, the `israa` of the Prophet being merely a more detailed description of the spiritual journey of any person who undertakes it, from one end to the other, from the most humble postration, done by all creatures, by all things that exist , to the deepest postration of the heart of the lover of God.

We all have beatiful traditions, spiritual traditions which help to brings us closer to God, but like everything that is taken for granted we may fail to value our tradition and we forget and get distracted from deeper things by the ephimerous. Therefore we are sent the mother of awakening, Maryam, and her son, to raise us from our spiritual death, to turn the mud which is the raw material we are made of into birds that want to fly, free, far.

Salaam

More:

The very first mention of isra'iil, and it already appears as bani 'isra?'iil and God addresses them. No mention of anybody called 'isra?'iil has been made at all, and the all the previous mentions of anybody are of adam and there is also spoken of a pact ith God, but it is a act of all humanity, that is tht etalk up to aya 2.40, and there in 2.40 God addresses banu 'israa'iil. Up to that moment there has been no mention of Ibrahim no mention of Musa, no mention of Nuh. Adam, that is it, but there is already a pact and we have the address to bani 'isra'il and God calls them to fulfill their part of the Pact.

To me it seems clear, banu 'isra'iil are those who have inherited spiritually, I mean, not necessarily through blood lines, a pact ith God and may be neglecting it.

And it is in that sense that '3isaa Ibnu Maryam is sent to bani 'isra'iil, to those who had the act and no are spiritually dead, and '3isaa ibnu maryam, blows into them with God's permission and gives them new life.

We will all live through the ruh blown into Maryam and into Maryam farch that '3sa blown into those who ant a new life.

It all makes a lot of sense.

Salaam

Huruf your text is missing for me. And i think i know why. It's because of this diamond shaped question marks:

(https://i.imgur.com/O4kONmA.jpg)

?Diamonds? ?Diamonds! ?Where, where? ?I want some diamonds! :tempt: :tempt:

Seriously now I put those accents to simulate the arabic letters, I suppose I do not have to be so accurate.

I'll give up all my diomonds for your sake, Sardar, but you ill have to guess the arabic letters.

Salaam

You just confirmed my suspicion sister Huruf. That diamond shape with question mark does cause the text go missing.

Salaam

Really guys, you are under estimating the importance of Israel
Banu Israel can be good guys, astrayed. But Israel not.

Please consider the actual importance in nowadays world of Israel.
No leader in occident can be elected withoud doing allegeance to Israel.

Please consider also that there is no country named Moisland, no religion named Moisism en no people named Moisians.
Please consider that there is no other banu something in Quran than banu israel and banu adam (humanity). Not even banu Abraham.


Now, there is perhaps another verse where ouy guy is named by surname

9:30 The Yahood said: ?Uzair the son of God,? and the Nassara said: ?The Messiah is the son of God.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

Uzair looks like a surname. No existence of a guy named Uzair in "Jew" religion.
Uzair is pejorartive form that means something like the little supporter. Root 3azara is used elsewhere in quran.

this verse is a clear hyperlink from Quran to what "Jews" says. Lets follows the hyperlink of Allah and see who is our guy

Exodus 4:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:


Funny. Isn't it ?
Our guy compete for the title of first son of God with the messiah. it is a kind of anti messiah and probably the thelogical figure who inspired the the mythical anti christ and Massih dajjal figures.



do you understand now why Israel name is so high  nowadays ?
Why this name is so fascinating ?
Why so many people thinks he was a true prophet ?

There were many  great Battles between Israel and Issa. I will evoke 3.
1- in the womb of their biblical mother between Esau and Jacob/Israel. The battle continued betwed Israel and Edomites.This is Israel version in the mixed Torah.
2- The battle betwwen Issa son of the nun (Yeshua Bin Nun , hero of the 6th book of old Testament. This is the true Messiab, son of May, sister of haroun and daughter of Imran.  this Issa was anoited by Moses himself. He was the guy who installed "banu israel" in "the promise land". But Israel erased his prophethood and still waiting for a guy who will do again the job.
3-the fake Messiah called Jesus. The shobbiha lahom guy. A guy whose injeels (plural) were written after his death.. A pure litterary person who never existed. An invention of Evangelists who were true believers. It was the greatest plot in history. God of "Yahood" is a racist god who care only about "sons of Israel", asking his "sons" to make henocides , crimes and to stole land of others.  The God of Israel had many laws (more 600) and much of them about food as 3-93 says. The God of Gospel is an opposite version. An universal care who care about spirituality and care about himans. A god who abolished the 600 stupid laws.

Really. With Quran only. No ways to understand who is Israel.
Quran give the keys. We have to follow the hyperlinks

Peace

Peace noshirk.
I believe sister huruf  does not want mixing or relating stories from the bible.

As for "Uzair ibnu Allah" in your last post, some bring as evidence that the Jews(During the time of Daniel, When Daniel and his companions were thrown into the fire, One of the companions was called Uzerius") have said this:

Daniel 3:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

But of course these all sayings to be checked.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Right, I do not want anything from the bible when dealing with the Qur'an.

Bible is hadith, it is as plain as that. The bible says good things? Sure. There are also very good, beautiful, inspired hadith. Many of the hadith, not necessarily the good ones, come from the bible or derive from it.

The bible, except when dealing excusively with high spiritual things, is an ethnic narrative, from the point of view of an ethnic identity. 

What does one care that God chooses a chosen people for the heck of it? what do I care whether this or that person had this or that children, unless those children are going to be used by God to teach us.

I read the bible as a child and at times some passages of the old Testament were directly nauseating depicting women as bitches, worse than rags.

Notwhithstanding, as I said, that there are good parts in it. When historical things are borrowed from the Bible, as if they were absolute truths, the result is dismal.

The  Qur'an has been thoroughly colonised by the Bible. For the Qur'an the Bible is the kiss of death. If we are going to read the Qur'an while holding the bible as help, better throw it away, we are trying to get water closing the tap.

The bible is hadith, and those believers that have it as an inspired book know that and deal with it accordingly, and know  how to make out the inspired from the ethnic and other trash in it. Just as there are good people who uphold the hadith but nevertheless know what to take seriously and what to discard.

Of course the imperials use the bible to destroy peoples self-esteem and for imperial purposes, but if it were not the bible or if it is not the bible it is something else. Nothing is without use to the sahayateen.

The more I look at the Qur'an by itself, the more wonderful it appears to me. Of course, nothing in this world can be looked at by itself, since we are int he world and our mind is set by what we have absorbed and perceived and how we integrate it into our whole. In that whole neither the bible, nor the hadith should be held at a par or even closer to the Qur?n than anything else.

Wisdom is wisdom, whether we find it in the popular provebs or sayings or int he voice of unknown people, or in the hadith or in the bible hadith or in the many transmissions of the many spiritual traditions of the world. Inspiration and holyness is not the exclusive of an ethnic club of the past. It is the inheritance of the human kind and nothing by its origin is of a better class than other things. We are rich and biblehadithists would have us miserly praying for crumbs of ethnic miracles.

Noshirk,

'israa' is the travel from night into light, that is the meaning of the word itself, no need to resort to extrenuous research to get that, 'israa'iil are those who undertook the journey from darkness into light and bani 'israa'il are those who inherited that spirit of going from darness into light and many times forget it it or betray it. So in fact all humanity are bani of those who undertook in loneliness and quest the journey from darkness into light.

As to the ethnic part. Modern abomination Israel shitty state is just a contortion plotted by the imperials to destroy the middle east and poison humanity's mind with historical-religious mumbo-jumbo of the lowest intellectual order. Jews in this scheme are used as priviledged trash in the upholding and extending of the imperials. Many of them are aware and act accordingly, but most people jews or anything else, are in the mediocrity and merely follow what they can with the least effort or to their best advantage. That is the way it has always been more or less. That is for each our own travel from darkness into light.

Sound people should not  fall into the trap of ehtnicities by simply turning their omelet upside down.

Every person can escape ethnicity-religion or pseudo-religion and believe in the One God and consider their human fellows as such fellows in the journey and reflect godliness in their behaviour.

Each day I become more and more convinced of the necessity of the Qur'an for most people, but the Qur'an purified of any and all unwarranted accretions as if it were the off-shoot of one original more important tradition. All tradition that matters is in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not indebeted to anything else. It is the digest God made for our ease in understanding existence and our meaning in it.

No, I will not take into consideration any bible stuff to understand the Qur'an, anymore than i will take into consideration anything else, or rather less since in fact right now the problem is to rid the Qur'an of all the impurities brought into it by the heavy, overhelming, mostly unconscious, superimposition, of the bible on the Qur'an.

Salaam   

Dear Huruf (and good logic)

I 50% agree that bible is hadith. However unlike Hadith, Quran refers many times to torah and what "Yahhod" says

27:76 This Qur?an tells to the BANU Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.

I think that for a so huge and enormous theological figure as Israel, we miss many things if we don't consider the genesis of this personage in bible.

the 100% Quran only approach is insufficient for me. Quran give keys to understand Torah and correct it.

Let me give example.
Quran says that Meriam is daughter of Imran, ans sister of Harun.
Many biblist says that this is  a confusion between mother of Jesus and the biblical prophetess Meriam sister of Moses.
But for me, with 100% quran only approach, without bible, i can't know that Moses had a sister called Meriem and that his father'name is Imran.
I cannot know also that his successor is called also Yeshua, that is the hebraic name of Jesus.

Another example.
2:60 And Moses was seeking water for his people, so We said: ?Strike the stone with your staff.? Thus twelve springs exploded out of it; each people then knew from where to drink. ?Eat and drink from the provisions of God, and do not roam the earth as corrupters.?

if you don't know what bible says, you miss something.
"yahood" said that Moses was punished by god because god said to him to shout on the stone but he "strike the stone with his staff". The punishment of Moses was that he was not allowed to enter "the promised land". Ypu miss this if you are Quran only and  will understand  that the "Strike the stone with your staff" has no particular importance.
There is others examples that illustrate the verse:
33:69 O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.

for example, Bible said that Moses ordered a fraticide with 3000 deaths in the calf's episode. Quran says that never happened

How can you understand all this with Quran only approach ?
33-69 warn us not to do what Israel did with Moses. But the "muslim Israel" did more with Muhammad. It is the Muslim Israel" who wrote Hadiths.



As i said before, islam is the only deen for Allah and all prophets were muslim.
We have to consider all as history of Islam enlighted by Quran who "corrects errors".

i totally disagree with comprehension that Israel is travel from night to light. It is the opposite. Travel from light to night.
3-93 is clear that Israel make "fatwas" and invent prohibitions without order from God.
Israel is priesthood. Priesthood is false prophethood. Prieshood is lies. Priesthood is indoctrination and rubbish. And the victims are Banu Israel themselves, that is people who nourish their spirit with this rubbish.


For each messenger of God, there is an "israel/priesthood" who follow him to pervert the messenger's message.
That is the meaning of the quranic expression "who traveled with noah on the arch".
Israel follow each Messenger. Israel always claims to an intermediate between God and his followers.
Israel is the spiritual son of chaytan sended  to pervert deen.
Allah is using Israel to distinguish who follow him from who follow tradition and hersays.
Imams are Israel. Who follow them are banu Israel.

however i think that word isra is related with this root
that is to hide something. Acting in secret, in the darkness.

we can relate this with the calf episode.
20:85 Allah said: ?We have tested your people after you left, and the Samiri misguided them.?

20:95 He said: ?So what do you have to say O Samiri ??
20:96 He said: ?I noticed what they did not notice, so I took a handful from traces of Messenger, and I cast it in. This is what my soul inspired me to do.?


samiri is from root smr related to

that is people siiting in the night waiting for the good moment to misguid people.
(Note Israel version in bible says that it was Aaron who made the calf)

The samiri followed Moses when he escaped Firaoun. He was between the travelers on "the arch" of Moses.
10:83 But none believed in Moses from his people except some from their descendants, because of their fear from Pharaoh and his commanders that he would persecute them. Pharaoh was high in the land, and he was of the tyrants.

26:52 And We inspired Moses: ?Take away My servants, for you will be followed.?
26:53 So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities.
26:54 ?These are but a small band.?

and samiri was between them


Peace

Salaam

Want to add something related to Israel

Sometimes we are referring to bible without knowing that we are referring to bible because it is included in "our bios", that is the lowest level our mind architecture. It is something we learned from childhood and we never thought it can be wrong.

Example. Daoud and Soleiman are known as Greatests kings of Israel.
But there is absolutely no links in Quran between daoud, soleiman and Israel or even Yahood or even torah. or even any known prophets.

it is not strange ?

in my quran studies, the most difficult thing i faced is to remove such kind of beliefs even when i thought i was a quran only believer. It is really hard to remove priesthood teachings from mind even if we want.


Peace

Right. That is what I meant when I said "unconscious".

Recently I realised that the greatest acheivement attributed to Salomon, the Temple, is nowhere in the Qur'an. That Sulayman is there allright and as an exceptional achiever and knowledgeable in sciences and things that I do not think I understand yet, or I ill never understand, but that no temple whatsoever is mentionned, not even a little brick. Surprising, right? Nowhere a temple of Sulayman. Why. Again are we in front of two different people, Sulayman and Solomon, or have we been fed a fantastic temple the same as we, from other sides, have been fed a magic carpet that flies? Of course we do not believe in those carpets, but the Temple of Solomon?

That is another reason why I have taken to reproduce all names such as appear in the Qur'an in Arabic and, as I have been able to ascertain, were reproduced in the Spanish muslim usage of earlier centuries, including proper names of persons. It si so that it is well understood that I do not atribute to thos names anything that the Qur'an does not. never mind whether other people identify them ith somebody else or not. Particularly, Maryam is Maryam, 3isa is 3isa, Yahia, Yahia...

Yes, I think that we do need a purification of the Qur'an in order to preserve it from the assumptions made in our heads as to what it says, let alone what it means. Just what it says and particularly what it does not say would be a great achievement.

I guess many muslims if they found a Qur'an without much of the bible lore they have been used to fit it with may reject the Qur'an. Too bad -for them. As the saying goes, popular wisdom "cuanto menos bulto, m?s claridad", the less bulk the more clarity.

Salaam.

Quote from: huruf on September 17, 2018, 07:04:31 AM
Recently I realised that the greatest acheivement attributed to Salomon, the Temple, is nowhere in the Qur'an. That Sulayman is there allright and as an exceptional achiever and knowledgeable in sciences and things that I do not think I understand yet, or I ill never understand, but that no temple whatsoever is mentionned, not even a little brick.

Some bricks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLTtnVVVIMA

Israel is a big liar. He loves rewrite history.

Brother Pazuzu was right.
History of Yahood was in Yemen. it was from there were  nabuchodonnor  (bakhta nasr) exiled them to Babylon. And it was Cyrus the Great who liberated them and allowed to them to go to Palestine for the first time. Actual torah was written after. The oldest text is in greek and written in egypt after Alexander.
Seems that rabbis of Israel brought some changes and that Daoud and Suleiman have benefited of a posthumous conversion to judaism  >:D.




Peace

Salam,

let's deep dive in the 7th century in Arabia, before Arabic grammarians existed end of 8th century, before they could invent triliteral roots, before Arabic grammar could be codified.

Then, how would the Arab audience of the Messenger hear the word "Isra'il" in Arabic ?
They would hear it as the Hebrew counterpart, of course.
And they would also hear it as an assonance composed of two words : "isra" and "aal".
"Isra" means doing a travel in darkness, like in verse 17:1.
Aal means family, like in aal-Imran, aal-Ibrahim. It is probably a derivative of Ahl, people.

So they would hear by Israel the family of those who travel in darkness.

In verse 3:93 we read that every food was allowed to the Bani Israel, except that Israel forbade itself.
If we except God, which entity usually arrogates itself the right to rule in God's name that something is allowed and something else is not allowed ?

Priesthood of course !

So Israel in Qur'an is a nickname for priesthood, the kind of which arrogates itself the right to rule in the name of God.

Next, what means "Bani Israel" ?
Bin in Arabic means son in the sense of being nourished by the father, Ab. This nourishment can be physical or spiritual.
Another word, walad, means the son in the biological sense.

Therefore the "Bani Israel" are those that are spiritually nourished by priesthood that leads them astray in darkness.

I doubt of the ability of anyone to plunge into 7th century Arabia or into 15th century china or Alaska. We may imagine whatever we like, but we do not plunge at all. Just figure something according to our imagination and readings or films of any kind or quality that we may have come accros.

Better keep as much as possible to the written word and honest intellect, and  proceed only as we can foundedly proceed on that ground which is certain and at hand. Finally we are not pronnoucing ourselves ont he values or lack of them of any place or people on such and such a time, but on the value of a book that we do have as is, now, in our hands.

Salaam   

Peace All.
So who are these Beni-Israeel?
1- يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَوفوا بِعَهدى أوفِ بِعَهدِكُم وَإِيّٰىَ فَارهَبونِ  2:40
GOD made a covenant with them.
2-يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَنّى فَضَّلتُكُم عَلَى العٰلَمينَ
Chosen people?
3-وَإِذِ استَسقىٰ موسىٰ لِقَومِهِ فَقُلنَا اضرِب بِعَصاكَ الحَجَرَ فَانفَجَرَت مِنهُ اثنَتا عَشرَةَ عَينًا قَد عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُناسٍ مَشرَبَهُم كُلوا وَاشرَبوا مِن رِزقِ اللَّهِ وَلا تَعثَوا فِى الأَرضِ مُفسِدينَ
They are Moses Quawm-People"
4وَإِذ أَخَذنا ميثٰقَ بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ لا تَعبُدونَ إِلَّا اللَّهَ وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسانًا وَذِى القُربىٰ وَاليَتٰمىٰ وَالمَسٰكينِ وَقولوا لِلنّاسِ حُسنًا وَأَقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ وَءاتُوا الزَّكوٰةَ ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيتُم إِلّا قَليلًا مِنكُم وَأَنتُم مُعرِضونَ -
Here  in the above verse GOD took the covenant with them.
5-وَلَقَد ءاتَينا موسَى الكِتٰبَ وَقَفَّينا مِن بَعدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ وَءاتَينا عيسَى ابنَ مَريَمَ البَيِّنٰتِ وَأَيَّدنٰهُ بِروحِ القُدُسِ أَفَكُلَّما جاءَكُم رَسولٌ بِما لا تَهوىٰ أَنفُسُكُمُ استَكبَرتُم فَفَريقًا كَذَّبتُم وَفَريقًا تَقتُلونَ
GOD is still addressing Beni Israeel here sending Moses and Jesus to them.
6-These must have been the people living with Moses and Aaron in Misr?
GOD bless.
Peace.

Quote from: good logic on September 17, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
Peace All.
So who are these Beni-Israeel?
1- يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَوفوا بِعَهدى أوفِ بِعَهدِكُم وَإِيّٰىَ فَارهَبونِ  2:40
GOD made a covenant with them.
2-يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَنّى فَضَّلتُكُم عَلَى العٰلَمينَ
Chosen people?
3-وَإِذِ استَسقىٰ موسىٰ لِقَومِهِ فَقُلنَا اضرِب بِعَصاكَ الحَجَرَ فَانفَجَرَت مِنهُ اثنَتا عَشرَةَ عَينًا قَد عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُناسٍ مَشرَبَهُم كُلوا وَاشرَبوا مِن رِزقِ اللَّهِ وَلا تَعثَوا فِى الأَرضِ مُفسِدينَ
They are Moses Quawm-People"
4وَإِذ أَخَذنا ميثٰقَ بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ لا تَعبُدونَ إِلَّا اللَّهَ وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسانًا وَذِى القُربىٰ وَاليَتٰمىٰ وَالمَسٰكينِ وَقولوا لِلنّاسِ حُسنًا وَأَقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ وَءاتُوا الزَّكوٰةَ ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيتُم إِلّا قَليلًا مِنكُم وَأَنتُم مُعرِضونَ -
Here  in the above verse GOD took the covenant with them.
5-وَلَقَد ءاتَينا موسَى الكِتٰبَ وَقَفَّينا مِن بَعدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ وَءاتَينا عيسَى ابنَ مَريَمَ البَيِّنٰتِ وَأَيَّدنٰهُ بِروحِ القُدُسِ أَفَكُلَّما جاءَكُم رَسولٌ بِما لا تَهوىٰ أَنفُسُكُمُ استَكبَرتُم فَفَريقًا كَذَّبتُم وَفَريقًا تَقتُلونَ
GOD is still addressing Beni Israeel here sending Moses and Jesus to them.
6-These must have been the people living with Moses and Aaron in Misr?
GOD bless.
Peace.

O notice that it says Musa's people, but it does not say that those are bani israiil.

On the other hand, that somebody ar bani israiil, that is inheritors of the those ho travelled by night does not mean that there are ony one bani israaiil, that is open, same as i ahle al kitaab who is not ahlu ul kitaab?

There ar emany peoole favored 3ala el 3alamin, everyone, in fact, in some aspect every people is favoured 3ala al alamin. But God blames those bani insraail that have forgotten God's ffavour on the and are ungrateful, that is what is telling them. Other people may be have not forgotten, that they have bben favoured 3ala eal 3alamin. Every people is a chosen people that is why they are a people. to understand chosen or favoured as being superior or over others is to take God as a servant for  their vanities. I know, as a people that I am favoured, i knwo that and I appreciate that. It would be sheer folly on my part to think that other people are not chosen and favoured with something else, something different from mine, but something that is their gift. That is why everybody enjoys travelling and meeting people from different places and knowing from far away lands and all that.


The point is that in order to know who are israail, it is as simple as saying who are the early risers. That you have in mind certain early risers, is not forbidding that early rises are evidently all those hwo rise early any time anywhere.  The name says it all, we do not need to study 10.000 years of human history to find out who were or are the ealy risers. Some of them may have encountered more difficult to rise early in winter in northern siberia or whatever, but that doe snot change te meaning of early risers.

Lut's people are israaiil, they left in the night before sunrise and went away from their town. Any descendant of Lut's people, in a physical way would be bani israiil , and spiritually all peoples in the world are bani israiil.

And in fact 3isa ibnu Maryam came to revive all bani israiil anywhere, where his message could be understood. That is their second opportunity. Those who have failed in getting it right the first time they receive the message, have another opportunity following 3isa ibnu Maryam. The can revive again speiritually, cure their blindness and their impurity, through the ruh that was breathed into Maryam and that 3isa blows into the birds he shapes with God's permission.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on September 17, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
I doubt of the ability of anyone to plunge into 7th century Arabia or into 15th century china or Alaska. We may imagine whatever we like, but we do not plunge at all. Just figure something according to our imagination and readings or films of any kind or quality that we may have come accros.

We do this when we do history, and history is a science, not imagination.

Quote
Better keep as much as possible to the written word and honest intellect, and  proceed only as we can foundedly proceed on that ground which is certain and at hand. Finally we are not pronnoucing ourselves ont he values or lack of them of any place or people on such and such a time, but on the value of a book that we do have as is, now, in our hands.

Salaam

I disagree here. The text we call Qur'an was primarily addressed to a specific audience in the 7th CE in their tongue and their social and cultural background (cf. verse 14:4), for a specific purpose.

It is not targeted at us, at first hand, at least not at me. Otherwise it would have been revealed in French (or in English) and using cultural references that are accessible to me, living in 21st CE.
It doesn't prevent us, living in 21st CE, to extract some wisdom from it, of course. But we must first understand what it meant in the 7st CE Arabia, then by delta from this epoch and place, we can understand which wisdom we can extract for us.

Otherwise we are hitting misinterpretation, and misinterpretation leads to spread corruption on earth in the end.

The Qur'an it says itself many times is addressed to a people who ponder, o reflect, who think, who use their minds, able to understand.

If that is nto you it is your business, but obviously you cannot ptetend that other people do not  understand that it is addressed to anybody who considers that it is for them.

Addressing the french? In what is different people from people. Human kind changes but not so much and not in the essential. And obviously anything that speaks about daily life and common events has to be set in something , so keep it simple. you have to choose one unless you want an enciclopedia of millions of volumes. These things are obvious. The Qur'an is  not concenred whether you use forks or you don't but on behaviour and behaviour,a s said is not different, in fact we do understand too well what the Qur'an is talking about.

Salaam

 

Peace huruf.

I am only going by the subject of 2:40 onwards.  It addresses Beni Israeel. They were Moses people at that time.
Otherwise who are these people of Moses that crossed the sea and dealt with Moses as their leader throughout the verses?

If you say: "O notice that it says Musa's people, but it does not say that those are bani israiil."
To me the verses after it is calling them Moses people it addresses them again as: "Ya Beni Israeel".
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Oh they can be banu 'israiil all right, but they are not the onl banu israaill, they are the banu israail, of that episode. It is like who is the murderer en an episode or one of the murderers. But the thing is from the point of view that they are spokin of, they are not may be from hte point of vie of being musa's people or descendants of so and so, but as banu israail, those who are succeding some people who started a night journey and that now are lost in the night.

That is at least hat I get from the whole thing.

Salaam

Salaam, good logic,

I am going to take advantage of your patience once more.

Do you recall anywhere in the narration of Musa and his people that they did leave in the night. I have the impression that no particula hour or time is metionned, but I do not want to overlook anything.

Thank you again for your patience

Salaam

OK, that is fine, I found it. Thank you

:sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun: :sun:

There is some night for you haha

:sun: :sun: :sun: O0 O0 O0 :sun: :sun: :sun:


Salaam

Peace huruf.
I was just indicating that Moses and Aaron were asking this (from Firoun):
أَن أَرسِل مَعَنا بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ   26:17
Beni Israeel existed before this
وَتِلكَ نِعمَةٌ تَمُنُّها عَلَىَّ أَن عَبَّدتَ بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ   26:22
But you are right this also happened after:
وَأَوحَينا إِلىٰ موسىٰ أَن أَسرِ بِعِبادى إِنَّكُم مُتَّبَعونَ 26:52

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Quote from: good logic on September 17, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
Peace All.
So who are these Beni-Israeel?
1- يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَوفوا بِعَهدى أوفِ بِعَهدِكُم وَإِيّٰىَ فَارهَبونِ  2:40
GOD made a covenant with them.
2-يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَنّى فَضَّلتُكُم عَلَى العٰلَمينَ
Chosen people?
3-وَإِذِ استَسقىٰ موسىٰ لِقَومِهِ فَقُلنَا اضرِب بِعَصاكَ الحَجَرَ فَانفَجَرَت مِنهُ اثنَتا عَشرَةَ عَينًا قَد عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُناسٍ مَشرَبَهُم كُلوا وَاشرَبوا مِن رِزقِ اللَّهِ وَلا تَعثَوا فِى الأَرضِ مُفسِدينَ
They are Moses Quawm-People"
4وَإِذ أَخَذنا ميثٰقَ بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ لا تَعبُدونَ إِلَّا اللَّهَ وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسانًا وَذِى القُربىٰ وَاليَتٰمىٰ وَالمَسٰكينِ وَقولوا لِلنّاسِ حُسنًا وَأَقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ وَءاتُوا الزَّكوٰةَ ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيتُم إِلّا قَليلًا مِنكُم وَأَنتُم مُعرِضونَ -
Here  in the above verse GOD took the covenant with them.
5-وَلَقَد ءاتَينا موسَى الكِتٰبَ وَقَفَّينا مِن بَعدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ وَءاتَينا عيسَى ابنَ مَريَمَ البَيِّنٰتِ وَأَيَّدنٰهُ بِروحِ القُدُسِ أَفَكُلَّما جاءَكُم رَسولٌ بِما لا تَهوىٰ أَنفُسُكُمُ استَكبَرتُم فَفَريقًا كَذَّبتُم وَفَريقًا تَقتُلونَ
GOD is still addressing Beni Israeel here sending Moses and Jesus to them.
6-These must have been the people living with Moses and Aaron in Misr?
GOD bless.
Peace.

Salaam bro

Really i don't see any problem
banu israel represents the people misguided by israel that is priesthood.
Allah sent many messengers to this people. that is a great gift from Allah and that's why it is logical Allah describe them as preferred to other people.
it is because he choose them for the great saga of prohets (from Abraham to muhammad)

other people, let says chinese, had some prophets, but it is a discontinued serie of epides and not  a saga.
i think the quranic word for "saga" is taour

that is step by step, period after period and not a mountain like it used to be translated.

for example, my people(qawm)  is "banu israel" since they believe in oulemas. But i am no more. Allah freed me from Israel and his bullshit.
my omma is not not my qawm. Oumma is spiritually linked
Perhaps, one day, Allah will say to me "Hey noshirk, go to president of republic and ask him to arsil bani israel wih you". Or perhaps he will call them banu muslim and bukhari.
it the president accepts, il will teach what Allah teached to me purified from priesthood bullshit. Since i will be rassool, it is logical to say "arsil bani israel with me".
but i don't think he will accepet. he will says "i am who decide who is teached or not in my country"  which is equivalent to " i am your greatest rabb".

Banu israel are neither good or bad people. i have many banu israel in my family. They beliveve in hadiths bukhari and muslim and sira of ibn hicham.
israel is a bad guy/people. Israel are ribbiyouns eating riba to do rabb in place of the true rabb


arsil doesnt mean let me travel with them to another country. A serious study of quran shows that the land inherited by the followers of Musa is land of Firaoun.
it is an israel teachning who says that  people moussa were allowed by Allah to attack other countries and take their land.

There is something you have to always remember. There is only one deen. Judaism, and christianism don't exist for Allah. Judaism, christianism, and actual islam are sects of what Allah call islam. So there is no reason that "banu israel" concept is limited to judaism or people of Moses.


Peace

Peace noshirk.
there are plenty of theories, history for example:

The Bene Israel, formerly known in India as the "Shanivar Teli" caste and later as the "Native Jew Caste", are a historic community of Jews in India. It has been suggested that it is made up of descendants of one of the disputed Lost Tribes and ancestors who had settled there centuries ago. In the 19th century, after the people were taught about normative Judaism, they tended to migrate from villages in the Konkan area to the nearby cities, primarily Mumbai, but also to Pune, Ahmedabad, and Kolkata, India; and Karachi, in today's Pakistan. Many gained positions with the British colonial authority of the period.
Or:
https://www.benisrael.org/
Or:
Some verses of Quran use the word یهود (Jews), while other use بنی اسرائیل (Children of Israeel). Apparently they seem to be pointing to the same group of people. But God does not do say anything without a purpose and indeed they should be some difference.
So what are the differences between these two group of people?
There are many verses that use both the terms. And they can be found in Qoran.
etc....
For me. like sister huruf I take what Qoran says.
But the main task from Qoran from what I can make out is to lead my life according to the instruction of Qoran. To do my best to follow the best advice from Qoran.
Things like who are beni Israeel? who has done what?...Are not my priority although I do not mind others searching and looking. I read with an open mind
I was quoting verses from Qoran, others can make of them what they want.
Thank you for your posts.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

How can we say that other people have not been favoured with prophets? What do we know about 99,99% of traditions are cultures that are not the homologised judeo-christian cum islamic and a little of indian-budist lore?

We do not know a damned thing and we affirm they have this or the have it not. We do not even know our on ancestors before christianity or greco-roman lore did away with all religious traditions in Europe and other places before them.
I have studied a little of aztecs and they indeed had prophets and they indeed had a religion which was completely sure of peoples ties with God to a depth as I have not seen anywhere else.

And we speak of a chosen people? All people are chosen. That tribe has so many prophets, very likely because they needed them and any other triby that should need God would give, because God is merciful beyond our imagination. And do we know that no tribe in the world had as many? we certainly do not know. "Judeo-Christian" culture as they call a certain mindset now poses as the all-knower and judge of everything, because hat they do not kno of,simply does not exist, it is the universal pin-roller of anything that it does not overlords. It misses a lot doing so.

Salaam

Sister huruf.

Of course in real terms the chosen people are those that choose right from wrong and apply it in their life.

But also GOD creates what He wills and chooses. We can all do with a little or big help from GOD.

Mind you do we really have a choice? Right from wrong ?

Well even our instinct is telling us there is only one winner!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

No we are all winners if we accept God's rahma and make it our law.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on September 19, 2018, 03:20:23 AM
How can we say that other people have not been favoured with prophets? What do we know about 99,99% of traditions are cultures that are not the homologised judeo-christian cum islamic and a little of indian-budist lore?

Salaam
10:47 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولٌ فَإِذَا جَاء رَسُولُهُمْ قُضِيَ بَيْنَهُم بِالْقِسْطِ وَهُمْ لاَ يُظْلَمُونَ

that is not the question
the fact is that there is only one saga similar to the saga from Noah to Muhammad
the fact is  that there is only one book called Quran it seems that it will be the "last book" that will dominate "other books"

61:9 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth, so that it will expose all other systems, even if the polytheists hate it.

Seems that Allah send isolated messengers from time to time to other people.
But no as form of Saga over thousand years.
i checked  the "99,99% of traditions are cultures that are not the homologised judeo-christian cum islamic and a little of indian-budist lore" and i found no such millenary saga there.

i repeat.
on the footsteps of each messenger sent by Allah, grows a priesthood from the darkness sent secretly by chaytan and called Israel.
if no messenger then no israel and no banu israel.

6:112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet ? mankind and Jinn devils ? to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

22:52 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then duplicates what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.

that is false "prophethood", that is "priesthood", that is Israel. Victims are banu Israel who eats their rubbish.

And like brother Pazuzu would have said, all history written by Israel is lies, lies, lies and lies...
From Jerusalem To Mecca, all is lies.
that is the job of Isra-el, sons of Ibliss.

Peace

I agree with Pazuzu's work on the matters he dealt with, except for the flat earth, that for me is not in question.

But I do not see why it has to be that saga of prophets. Of course youd do not know the 99,99% nobody does, in particular because if has been hidden, for ancient people since a long time ago.

And it dpeends on hat you call prophets or warners or what you do not.

Nor are youg iving any explanation for the saga. You talk about priests and I dop not kno whether hat you intend is to say that the prophets are sent to undo the priesthood or what.

For me 'israa'iil doe snot need a lot of explanation, the words say it all. As to banu 'israa'iil those are the successors of the 'israa'iil spirituality, many a time corrupting or undoing it, which is why they get again warners against that. Whether the corruption consists in establishing a vested interest priesthood or not, is a detail. That may be a kid of corruption not necessarily the only one. The lust for power may be another.

Salaam 

Quote from: good logic on September 18, 2018, 01:58:57 PM
Peace noshirk.
there are plenty of theories, history for example:

The Bene Israel, formerly known in India as the "Shanivar Teli" caste and later as the "Native Jew Caste", are a historic community of Jews in India. It has been suggested that it is made up of descendants of one of the disputed Lost Tribes and ancestors who had settled there centuries ago. In the 19th century, after the people were taught about normative Judaism, they tended to migrate from villages in the Konkan area to the nearby cities, primarily Mumbai, but also to Pune, Ahmedabad, and Kolkata, India; and Karachi, in today's Pakistan. Many gained positions with the British colonial authority of the period.
Or:
https://www.benisrael.org/
Or:
Some verses of Quran use the word یهود (Jews), while other use بنی اسرائیل (Children of Israeel). Apparently they seem to be pointing to the same group of people. But God does not do say anything without a purpose and indeed they should be some difference.
So what are the differences between these two group of people?
There are many verses that use both the terms. And they can be found in Qoran.
etc....
For me. like sister huruf I take what Qoran says.
But the main task from Qoran from what I can make out is to lead my life according to the instruction of Qoran. To do my best to follow the best advice from Qoran.
Things like who are beni Israeel? who has done what?...Are not my priority although I do not mind others searching and looking. I read with an open mind
I was quoting verses from Qoran, others can make of them what they want.
Thank you for your posts.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salaam
There is many people around the indian ocean who claims to descent of "israel" or yehud.
there is of course the "yemenites jews", the indian jews, the ethiopian jews and other in black africa (south africa, zimbabwe, tanazania). Seems that DNA links them to Yemenite people.

And it is difficult to find traces of Jews before Cyrus the great. Greeks for example never spoke about them.

this is a clear indication that "the tribe" is originated somewhere in Yemen and not somewhere in palestine.

The funny thing is that like "Israel" who became a tribe, Yahood also became a tribe based on genealogy and not on faith.
Same people who rewrote torah to make their "Israel" their ancestor rewrote it to make Yehuda theit ancestor.
Yehuda is said to be a son son of Israel/Jacob. In bible it was the was who wanted to sell Yusuf for some coins. And if course, the funny parabolists evanglists choosed that name for the guy who sold Jesus to romans for some coins. Funny evangelist reminded allegorically that father of Jesus if "Joseph" while rabbis until now are saying that their Messiah should be a descent of  Juda.

Brother ayman brought a theory that Jinn is our "spiritual/imagination" side. JINN is a kind of zawj of INS. This couple is very knows in all religions (execept in "islam") as the couple spirit/flesh. Israel, his son Yehuada and their filiation represents a "flesh" conception of the religion. It is totally opposed to the spiritual conception of "Jesus" . It worth read the bible to see the opposition between old and new testament. Old testament  is racist and flesh based religion in wich Yahveh is just the tribal god of Israel tribe. The new testament is something where god is god of all humans.


Actually, people originated from east europe claims (an believe) to be descent of Israel. They are occupying a land they have named Israel. And every town in Palestine have been renamed with a name from Torah. "Israel" is a specialist in rewriting history as they want, claiming that the aim is "faith", to obtain advantages in this live for their flesh. That is priesthood whose work is to guide from light to darkness.

There is understandings  of Quran that help to understand what happen now. I think is not by chance and that Allah wanted so.
Why Israel name is so high now ? Why there is so lies around the name of Israel ?

Israel is great  and very difficult subject where we have to mix many sources of knowledge.
it is not "all in the name" like huruf said. It is not so simple.

Peace

Peace noshirk.
Of course history is not simple to unravel.
I keep saying this over and over again.
Let me give you a clear example of today:

The western media is making a new history by deceiving folks and feeding them information/news in an edited way following a leaders/system agenda.(I live in the west so I am commenting on the west. I am also assuming other media do the same).
The west media ,in the past few days or before that has not even mentioned the bombing of Syria by Israel. Why?
I leave you and the readers to find the answers ! I believe public support will diminish and the general public will start asking questions of !why are you supporting tyranny and injustice?"
The west media is pre-empting /preparing to get public support for attacking Syria again ,so it is feeding a cock and bull story about the Syrian army is about to use chemical weapons on their own people?
So what happens when they win wars by deceit? They write their own history!!! Are the coming generations going to argue this out ? They will have to dig for the truth?
Same about Beni Israeel ,or other tribes of the past. We cannot trust "men/folks" history unless we check it.

That is why I try to push for the self correction/self cleansing of each individual to search for the truth and live the truth. Only then we can make sure "future history " is clean and honest.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Quote from: good logic on September 20, 2018, 06:19:48 AM
Peace noshirk.
Of course history is not simple to unravel.
I keep saying this over and over again.
Let me give you a clear example of today:

The western media is making a new history by deceiving folks and feeding them information/news in an edited way following a leaders/system agenda.(I live in the west so I am commenting on the west. I am also assuming other media do the same).
The west media ,in the past few days or before that has not even mentioned the bombing of Syria by Israel. Why?
I leave you and the readers to find the answers ! I believe public support will diminish and the general public will start asking questions of !why are you supporting tyranny and injustice?"
The west media is pre-empting /preparing to get public support for attacking Syria again ,so it is feeding a cock and bull story about the Syrian army is about to use chemical weapons on their own people?
So what happens when they win wars by deceit? They write their own history!!! Are the coming generations going to argue this out ? They will have to dig for the truth?
Same about Beni Israel ,or other tribes of the past. We cannot trust "men/folks" history unless we check it.

That is why I try to push for the self correction/self cleansing of each individual to search for the truth and live the truth. Only then we can make sure "future history " is clean and honest.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic.

Seems like if we were in something like a messianic period.
the importance taken by "Israel" and all the powerful governments who make allegiance to Israel nowadays is very surprising.
Never in history, Israel was so important.
In fact, in history (not in old testament), we cannot find trace of an Israeli or even a Jewish civilization. there is no proof of existence of kingdom Israel even with saloman or david (i think even they were not from people of torah). Jews were always marginal people of little importance.

in fact, seems like "Israel" is gathering his "childs". With my understating, Islamists are also banu israel. It is not surprising for me to see Daech working for Israel state.
And it is clear that opportunists/hypocrites of all countries are making allegiance to Israel.

Of course, there is no massih dajjal in quran and no return of Jesus or something like this.
I consider all this as an Israeli prophecy which looks like it is realizing. However i think there will be an end of story not expected by Israeli "prophets". I would say as usual since Israel expect his Messiah from long time ago.

Theological enemy of Israel personage is of course, for me,......the Messiah personage.
i dont know how it will end but  i feel that big theological events are occurring.



Peace

https://topicsfromquran.com/2018/09/29/israeel-and-bani-israeel/

Biblical beliefs which have crept into Muslim faith, make people believe that Israeel means Yaqoob A.S, however, this is not stated in Quran.  Link to above post reviews Ayas of Quran, what does the terms  'Israeel' and  ?Bani Israeel? mean as per character traits and description given in Quran.

Israel means God-conscious, the system of mode of conduct, among dwellers of this forum as well. It stems from Ancient root א‬ש‬ר‬, meaning straight path, and also ads א‬ל‬ (El), which traditionally means God. Combined it means "Straight path to God".

In the Quran this phrase is available as a combination ofاسر and ايل , which is joint + familiarity, unity, because that's what AL steps from. Together it means "Enjoined Unity", which is also related to A LOT OF Quranic phrases, including the name for the Quran itself, which means "Unification". Unification of what would you ask?

There was never such tribe as Children of Israel nor Exodus events, at some point in history they simply titled themselves as adepts of a particular religious movement as spiritual successors to these tribes described in the myth. Similarly as people in Arabia started calling themselves "muslims" and converting to "Islam" (also completely mistranslated words) because of the Quran. The twelve tribes is an allegory for what hangs on every wall in every house in your hallway.

Those who believe it to be a nation should also support the creation myth and explain the problem of different races from it as well, since there is banu Adama (Children of Adam) too. Israel is not a tribe.