Salaam to all
Has anyone seen this video?
https://youtu.be/Mb2MOsjzetQ
The video is a discussion with Sheikh Atabek Shukurov, an Uzbekistani hanafi scholar.
It's actually an interesting take from him and a refreshing perspective to hear from a traditional Sunni scholar about approaching the hadith critically. l wouldn't say that I'm in 100% agreement with him (as there's a lot that he says in the video I don't agree on as he still does rely upon hadith himself) but I guess it's a step in the right direction. At least his approach in not using the hadith as revelation is sound.
What I found most interesting was that Imam Abu Hanifa was so critical himself of the early narrations; I guess it's something that a lot of Sunni's wouldn't know and would be interesting to use this perspective when discussing with them.
One interesting thing to ponder (and this is a bit of a tangent :P); the founder of Karaite Judaism (a sect of Judaism that only accepts the Torah as Law and God's word as opposed to accepting the Jewish hadith equivalents (the Talmud which is the Mishna and Gemara)) Anan Ben David did spend a lot of time with Imam Abu Hanifa in prison and according to Jewish sources Ben David learnt his teachings from Abu Hanifa. Perhaps they shared similar ideas and I find it fascinating that a Jewish sect which is the equivalent of the "Qur'anites" (sorry hate using that word) movement started in the early Islamic period. The word Karaite or Qaraite in fact comes from the root word Qara ,which means reading (the similarity to Qur'an is uncanny). This is just speculation but I feel that Abu Hanifa may have been more anti hadith than is attributed to him.
Nonetheless the scholars of the early Islamic period seemed to have had plenty of interesting discussions in comparison to the ones today.
Anyone have any thoughts on the video?
Salam,
I remember seeing this vid some time ago. it's not something that hasn't been discussed but I think it's not something that will happen soon.
Re-evaluation of hadith or approaching hadith critically would be good for the sunni world but I just can't imagine it happening soon. People will be criticised for doubting great scholars but you're right it's a step in the right direction.
Interesting about Anan Ben David. What many people don't know is there was much criticism of hadith back in the day. Hadith wasn't always seen as "holy" or divine.
you might find this interesting
Quote
Muslim and Bukhari?s main difference is in their methodology for recoding hadith. For example Bukhari held that the meeting of the narrators must have been established for their narration to be accepted whereas Muslim?s requirement was that the transmitters were contemporaries ?with no "clear indication (dalala bayyina)" that they did not meet? (Jonathan Brown, 2009, p.105).
Although they are popular in current times this was not always the case. Many scholars of their time critiqued their work. Both Muslim and Bukhari were criticised by other fellow scholars. Brown writes ?For Ibn Abi Hatim, one of the most influential figures in the development of hadith criticism, Muslim is negligible and al-Bukhari anathema? (Jonathan Brown, 2007, p.88). It seems quite profound to make such statements. Bukhari and Muslim were not very well praised by their peers; rather their work was viewed as a bid?a (innovation) for boasting superiority. (Jonathan Brown, 2007)
Abu Sulayman Hamd b Muhammad Al-Khattabi al-Busti (otherwise known as Al-Khattabi) a Sunni Shafi scholar, was one of the earliest commentators of hadith literature (Tokatly, 2001 & G?nther, 2008). Tokatly (2001) and G?nther (2008) discuss how Al-Khattabi had preference to other hadith books (namely Abu Dawud?s sunnan collection) over the sahihayn. He did not place the same reverence to the sahihayn as other people did nor as Sunni Muslims do today. One of Alkhattabi?s distaste is evident from the writing of Tokaltly (2001), in which he states ?al-Khattabi does not comment on all the traditions cited by Al-Bukhari, but only on problematic ones that he picks out? (Tokaltly, 2001, p. 57).
Salaam SarahY
Yeah I agree, I don't see the mainstream Sunni masses criticising the hadith literature in the near future, but discussing the early criticism of hadith would be a good angle to use when discussing with them. At least it would hopefully get the ball rolling in some of the open minded Sunni's.
That's interesting to read that Bukhari and Muslim were criticised in their own times. Where did you take that quote from? I'd like to read more into this.
Salam,
just some research I did, you can read more here:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/119660399/dialogues-of-hadith-different-perceptions-and-insights (https://www.scribd.com/doc/119660399/dialogues-of-hadith-different-perceptions-and-insights)
Does anybody has any thought on:
- WHY they rely upon Hadith?
Ranging from: What drives them? What motivates them? (to rely upon Hadith) What needs does the Hadith being fulfilled? Why they wrote / invent the Hadith? etc..
Quote from: Jafar on July 06, 2018, 01:00:08 AM
Does anybody has any thought on:
- WHY they rely upon Hadith?
Ranging from: What drives them? What motivates them? (to rely upon Hadith) What needs does the Hadith being fulfilled? Why they wrote / invent the Hadith? etc..
Simply to establish their control over masses.
Quote from: Novice on July 06, 2018, 02:29:32 AM
Simply to establish their control over masses.
Good, now the next why.
- Why they want / need to control the masses?
- Why they see the hadith will help them to obtain their objective?
Quote from: Jafar on July 06, 2018, 01:00:08 AM
Does anybody has any thought on:
- WHY they rely upon Hadith?
Ranging from: What drives them? What motivates them? (to rely upon Hadith) What needs does the Hadith being fulfilled? Why they wrote / invent the Hadith? etc..
Quran. She is incomplete without him. He is made for her. When she was alone she couldn't satisfy her customers.
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 08, 2018, 10:20:42 PM
Quran. She is incomplete without him. He is made for her. When she was alone she couldn't satisfy her customers.
*Edit* I may not have noticed but i think you were just joking with that comment so apologizes if i have misread you reply to Jafar.
Uh...Qur'an states otherwise:
6:114 افغير الله ابتغى حكما وهو الذى انزل اليكم الكتاب مفصلا والذين ءاتيناهم الكتاب يعلمون انه منزل من ربك بالحق فلا تكونن من الممترين
Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakamanwahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalanwaallatheena ataynahumu alkitabayaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqifala takoonanna mina almumtareena
"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6:115 وتمت كلمت ربك صدقا وعدلا لا مبدل لكلماته وهو السميع العليم
Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqanwaAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAualAAaleemu
And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Plus Allah (SWTAY) said he did not leave anything out of the book:
6:38 وما من دابة فى الارض ولا طائر يطير بجناحيه الا امم امثالكم ما فرطنا فى الكتاب من شىء ثم الىا ربهم يحشرون
Wama min dabbatin fee al-ardiwala ta-irin yateeru bijanahayhi illaomamun amthalukum ma farratna feealkitabi min shay-in thumma ila rabbihim yuhsharoona
And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
Also check 6:19 to 6:38.
Plus the word "hadith" is mentioned by name and mostly it's not in a positive way.
From http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm)
QuoteThe Word Hadith in The Quran
The following is a list of the occurrence of the word hadith/hadeeth and how its used in The Quran/Koran.
Possible meanings of the word hadith = narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account and tale.
There are 26 occurrences of the word hadith in The Quran and they are shown below. Please remember to read the context (surrounding verses) as this is crucial to understanding the actual verse:
On that day those who rejected and disobeyed the messenger will desire that the earth will swallow them; but they cannot hide any hadith from GOD. [4:42]
Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they say: "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say: "This is from you!" Say: "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand a hadith! [4:78]
GOD, there is no god but He. He will gather you for the day of resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful in hadith than GOD?. [4:87]
And it has been sent down to you in the book, that if you hear GOD's verses being rejected in and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different hadith; if not, then you are like them. GOD will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in hell all together [4:140]
And if you see those who meddle in Our verses, then turn away from them until they meddle in a different hadith; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people [6:68]
Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and earth, and all that GOD has created?. Perhaps their time is coming near; so in which hadith after this will they have faith? [7:185]
And it is such that your Lord Has chosen you, and He teaches you the interpretation of hadith, and He completes His blessings upon you and upon the family of Jacob, as He completed it for your fathers before that, Abraham and Isaac. your Lord is Knowing, Wise. [12:6]
And the one from Egypt who bought him said to his wife: 'make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we make take him as a son'. And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of hadith. And GOD Has full power over His affairs, but most of mankind do not know. [12:21]
'My Lord, you have given me sovereignty and taught me the interpretations of hadith. Initiator of the heavens and earth, you are my protector in this world and the hereafter. Make me die a Submitter, and join me with the good doers'. [12:101]
In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a hadith that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who have faith. [12:111]
Perhaps you will torment yourself in grief over them, because they will not believe in this hadith at all. [18:6]
And did the hadith of Moses come to you? [20:9]
Then We sent Our messengers in succession. Every time there came to a nation their messenger, they denied him. So We made them follow one another, and We made them a hadith. So away with a people who do not believe. [23:44]
And from the people, there are those who accept baseless hadith to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and takes it as entertainment. Those will have a humiliating retribution. [31:6]
O you who believe, do not enter the prophet's homes except if you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for hadith. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm God's messenger, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God. [33:53]
But they said: ?our Lord, make the measure between our journeys longer?, and they wronged themselves. So We made them hadith, and We scattered them into small groups. In this are signs for every person who is patient, thankful. [34:19]
God has sent down the best hadith; a book that is similar in two ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him. [39:23]
These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith after God and His revelations do they believe? [45:6]
Has the hadith of Abraham?s noble guests come to you? [51:24]
Let them produce a hadith like this, if they are truthful. [52:34]
Are you questioning this hadith? [53:59]
Are you disregarding this hadith? [56:81]
The prophet had trusted some of his wives with a certain hadith, then one of them spread it, and GOD let him know about it. He then informed his wife of part of the issue, and disregarded part. She said: ?who informed you of this??. He said: ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert?. [66:3]
Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this hadith; We will lead them on whence they never perceive. [68:44]
So in what hadith after this will they believe? [77:50]
Did the hadith of Moses come to you? [79:15]
Has the hadith come to you of the soldiers? [85:17]
Has the hadith come to you of that which will overwhelm? [88:1]
Quote from: The Sardar on July 08, 2018, 11:44:46 PM
*Edit* I may not have noticed but i think you were just joking with that comment so apologizes if i have misread you reply to Jafar.
Uh...Qur'an states otherwise:
6:114 افغير الله ابتغى حكما وهو الذى انزل اليكم الكتاب مفصلا والذين ءاتيناهم الكتاب يعلمون انه منزل من ربك بالحق فلا تكونن من الممترين
Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakamanwahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalanwaallatheena ataynahumu alkitabayaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqifala takoonanna mina almumtareena
"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6:115 وتمت كلمت ربك صدقا وعدلا لا مبدل لكلماته وهو السميع العليم
Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqanwaAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAualAAaleemu
And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Plus Allah (SWTAY) said he did not leave anything out of the book:
6:38 وما من دابة فى الارض ولا طائر يطير بجناحيه الا امم امثالكم ما فرطنا فى الكتاب من شىء ثم الىا ربهم يحشرون
Wama min dabbatin fee al-ardiwala ta-irin yateeru bijanahayhi illaomamun amthalukum ma farratna feealkitabi min shay-in thumma ila rabbihim yuhsharoona
And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
Also check 6:19 to 6:38.
Plus the word "hadith" is mentioned by name and mostly it's not in a positive way.
From http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm)
😅😥😢😤😭 :'( :'( Sadly it's the opposite.
I think it may be true that quran is a A liturgical christian book translated to arabic with some additions so that arab may understand it but they barely understood.
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 09, 2018, 04:54:38 AM
:'( :'( Sadly it's the opposite.
I think it may be true that quran is a A liturgical christian book translated to arabic with some additions so that arab may understand it but they barely understood.
A linguistic christian book? Additions? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion at all. I honestly beginning to think you are assuming things. How exactly is this opposite if reading the Qur'an in context.
Quote from: The Sardar on July 09, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
A linguistic christian book? Additions? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion at all. I am beginning to think you are assuming things. How exactly is this opposite if read the Qur'an in context.
Al-Baqarah 2:158
Indeed, as-Safa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah . So whoever makes Hajj to the House or performs 'umrah - there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good - then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing.
Keep reading the context.
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 09, 2018, 05:25:04 AM
Al-Baqarah 2:158
Indeed, as-Safa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah . So whoever makes Hajj to the House or performs 'umrah - there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good - then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing.
Keep reading the context.
The word "umrah" in that translation that you are using is an addition, the arabic word is actually
iAAtamara (اعتمر)Ayn-Miim-Ra (ع م ر) = to inhabit, dwell, mend, repair/revive, tend, build, promote, cultivate, make habitable, to make better, to develop, populate, to serve/uphold/observe/regard, to visit, to colonize, aimed at it, frequently visit, a visit in which is the cultivation of love/affection, repairing to an inhabited place.
perform a sacred visitation, minor pilgrimmage, pilgrimmage with fewer rites.
to remain alive (save life), to live, life, age, long-life, old-age.
'Amara (prf. 3rd. p, m. plu.): They inhabited, populated.
Ya'muru (imp. 3rd. m. sing.): He mends, keeps in a good and flourishing state.
Ya'muruu (imp. 3rd. m. plu. final Nun dropped). They keep in a good and flourishing state.
Nu'ammir: (Imp. 1st. plu. juss. II.): We grant long life.
Yu'ammar (pip. 3rd. m. sing. II): You be given a long life.
I'tamara (prf. 3rd. m. sing. VIII.): He did 'umrah.Ista'mara (prf. 3rd. m. sing. X.): He made (you) dwell.
'Amrun: Life.
'Umuran (n. acc.): Life-time.'Umurun (n. nom.)
Imaaratun (v, n.): Keeping in a good and flourishing state.
Ma'muur (pct. Pic.): Much frequented.
Mu'ammar (pis. pic. vb. II.): Goodman.
'Imraan: proper name.
amara vb. (I) - perf. act. 30:9 x2, impf. act. 9:17, 9:18, pcple. pass. 52:4,
amr n.m. 15:72,
imarah n.f. 9:19,
imran n. prop. 3:33, 3:35, 66:12,
umrah n.f. 2:196 x2,
umur n.m. 10:16, 16:70, 21:44, 22:5, 26:18, 28:45, 35:11,
ammara vb. (II) - impf. act. 35:37, 36:68, impf. pass. 2:96, 35:11, pcple. pass. 35:11,
itamara vb. (VIII) - 2:158,
istamara vb. (X) - perf. act. 11:61
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages: 438, 439, 440, 441, 442 ## http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=emr
There are many reasons to rely on hadith. Relying on hadith makes you part of the team, not many people want to be loners.
Besides if you don?t rely on hadith and that?s all you know it?ll question everything you believed. That?s a little mind boggling and distressing. So why go down that path when it?s easier to follow what so and so says. Why question your beliefs and have people criticise your faith or claim you to be weak.
Relying on hadith is in a way a comfort, a safety zone, and an enjoyment of the bliss of ignorance.
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 08, 2018, 10:20:42 PM
Quran. She is incomplete without him. He is made for her. When she was alone she couldn't satisfy her customers.
Maybe for some customers perspectives although ones desire doesn't prove anything.
There is no proof or systematic way in which hadith explains or should I say "completes" the Quran.
Peace All.
When Qoran is pondered deeply, one finds we have no need of any other source apart from the only true source, GOD Alone.
First , the source of all knowledge is GOD, as acknowledged by Angels:
2:32
They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."
قالوا سُبحٰنَكَ لا عِلمَ لَنا إِلّا ما عَلَّمتَنا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ العَليمُ الحَكيمُ
Second: GODs message/words are sufficient, human s words are not required for salvation :
2:37
Then, Adam received from his Lord words, whereby He redeemed him. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
فَتَلَقّىٰ ءادَمُ مِن رَبِّهِ كَلِمٰتٍ فَتابَ عَلَيهِ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوّابُ الرَّحيمُ
Similarly GOD has given us Qoran ,(GOD s words) ,specific and sufficient for us if we really believe GOD.
End of reliance on anything else.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Salam Everyone!
I have a few simple questions to all:
Did 'the Prophet' fully understood the message of Quran? He acted upon it accurately or not?
If your answer is yes, then please share the evidence and some examples of his actions, which were exactly in accordance with the Qura'n.
If no, and if it is only Allah who makes us understand the message, then please let know why everyone has a different understanding?
Thank you in advance!
May Allah guide and bless all the truth seekers!
Peace TellMeTheTruth.
We can only know for sure what Qoran tells us about the prophet.
Even if someone answers your question with "yes"(And they would be lying to you, in my opinion!) ,the prophet is now dead and cannot explain his understanding to us, so it becomes irrelevant.
The question that we should ask ourselves is:
Is Qoran now the same one sent with the prophet? If the answer is yes:
Then ,we should study /ponder it ourselves and act on it as best we can understand it. That is what is required of us.
Whether people understand it differently or argue about what it is saying is part of what GOD has intended with it. Our true conviction must be tried and tested.
The prophet and his generation were also arguing and understanding it differently according to their intentions and aims.
GOD said that "The true from the false " must be filtered/distingushed as far as the humans are concerned. Therefore divisions and disagreements must follow in all the generations.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam good logic!
I think I asked simple questions first and expected a simple answer, i.e., yes or no. I wonder why you are not confident enough to say a big simple "NO" since you know/think that the people answering 'yes' would be liars.
Quote from: good logic on July 12, 2018, 02:34:25 PM
Even if someone answers your question with "yes"(And they would be lying to you, in my opinion!) ,the prophet is now dead and cannot explain his understanding to us, so it becomes irrelevant.
what becomes irrelevant? my question or your answer?
Peace
Quote
Is Qoran now the same one sent with the prophet? If the answer is yes:
Then ,we should study /ponder it ourselves and act on it as best we can understand it. That is what is required of us.
Whether people understand it differently or argue about what it is saying is part of what GOD has intended with it. Our true conviction must be tried and tested.
OK then let me now how you understand and act upon your understanding from Al-Quran. For example:
When you read "قل ھو اللہ احد". What do you understand?
"Say: He, Allah is One"
or "He, Allah is anyone"
or "He, Allah is unity"
PRLONLINE: Alif-Ha-Dal = make/call it one, unity, anyone/anything.
QuoteThe prophet and his generation were also arguing and understanding it differently according to their intentions and aims.
How do you know that?
Peace.
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 01:50:16 PM
Salam Everyone!
I have a few simple questions to all:
Did 'the Prophet' fully understood the message of Quran? He acted upon it accurately or not?
If your answer is yes, then please share the evidence and some examples of his actions, which were exactly in accordance with the Qura'n.
If no, and if it is only Allah who makes us understand the message, then please let know why everyone has a different understanding?
Thank you in advance!
May Allah guide and bless all the truth seekers!
This is not a simple question.
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 03:14:32 PM:
When you read "قل ھو اللہ احد". What do you understand?
"Say: He, Allah is One"
or "He, Allah is anyone"
or "He, Allah is unity"
PRLONLINE: Alif-Ha-Dal = make/call it one, unity, anyone/anything.
How do you know that?
Peace.
I understand it is telling us to say to the people Allah in one
I don't understand why in quran "say " or "qul" is included.
Salam, NewFrenzy!
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 12, 2018, 03:31:23 PM
This is not a simple question.
This is a very simple question for people who have studied the Quran. The answer is a BIG SIMPLE "NO". He did not act with 100% accuracy. Because 'the Prophet' did mistakes and Allah warned and threatened him occasionally in the Quran. However, the Prophet didn't get astray after revelation of the Quran because he was guided by Allah as well (see surah 93 for example).
Peace!
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 03:59:22 PM
Salam, NewFrenzy!This is a very simple question for people who have studied the Quran. The answer is a BIG SIMPLE "NO". He did not act with 100% accuracy. Because 'the Prophet' did mistakes and Allah warned and threatened him occasionally in the Quran. However, the Prophet didn't get astray after revelation of the Quran because he was guided by Allah as well (see surah 93 for example).
Peace!
That's does not mean he did not understood it. But as you said.
Peace
Salam!
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 12, 2018, 03:35:31 PM
I understand it is telling us to say to the people Allah in one
I don't understand why in quran "say " or "qul" is included.
It is a command and it is usually directed to 'the Prophet' only. He was commanded to convey the words of Allah to the people around him and I believe that he did so for sure. Allah's words said by the Prophet are the 'ahsan ahadith' in a true sense and have authentication of Allah. For example: إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّـهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ (Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance.) is the true and authentic Hadith (see Quran 2:120)
Peace!
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 12, 2018, 04:11:42 PM
That's does not mean he did not understood it. But as you said.
Peace
'Understanding' something and 'acting accordingly to this understanding' are two different things/deeds.
Peace!
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 04:28:39 PM
Salam!It is a command and it is usually directed to 'the Prophet' only. He was commanded to convey the words of Allah to the people around him and I believe that he did so for sure. Allah's words said by the Prophet are the 'ahsan ahadith' in a true sense and have authentication of Allah. For example: إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّـهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ (Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance.) is the true and authentic Hadith (see Quran 2:120)
Peace!
So the verses without qul is not words of allah.
Quote from: NewFrenzy on July 12, 2018, 04:42:09 PM
So the verses without qul is not words of allah.
who said that? See every word in the Quran is sent down by Allah. However, there are words which Allah tells that these words were spoken or said by the others. For example: 15:32-34 are 03 ayats and have a dialogue between Allah and Iblis:
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا لَكَ أَلَّا تَكُونَ مَعَ السَّاجِدِينَ ﴿٣٢﴾ قَالَ لَمْ أَكُن لِّأَسْجُدَ لِبَشَرٍ خَلَقْتَهُ مِن صَلْصَالٍ مِّنْ حَمَإٍ مَّسْنُونٍ ﴿٣٣﴾ قَالَ فَاخْرُجْ مِنْهَا فَإِنَّكَ رَجِيمٌ ﴿٣٤﴾
There is a word "قال" for 3 times. In Ayah 32 it tells that Allah asked a question to Iblis. while Ayah 33 tells what Iblis replied. Ayat 34 again tells what Allah said to Iblis.
Hope you understood.
Peace!
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 04:53:35 PM
who said that? See every word in the Quran is sent down by Allah. However, there are words which Allah tells that these words were spoken or said by the others. For example: 15:32-34 are 03 ayats and have a dialogue between Allah and Iblis:
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا لَكَ أَلَّا تَكُونَ مَعَ السَّاجِدِينَ ﴿٣٢﴾ قَالَ لَمْ أَكُن لِّأَسْجُدَ لِبَشَرٍ خَلَقْتَهُ مِن صَلْصَالٍ مِّنْ حَمَإٍ مَّسْنُونٍ ﴿٣٣﴾ قَالَ فَاخْرُجْ مِنْهَا فَإِنَّكَ رَجِيمٌ ﴿٣٤﴾
There is a word "قال" for 3 times. In Ayah 32 it tells that Allah asked a question to Iblis. while Ayah 33 tells what Iblis replied. Ayat 34 again tells what Allah said to Iblis.
Hope you understood.
Peace!
That's qaala not qul. PM NVM
See this for example:
قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ تَعَالَوْا إِلَىٰ كَلِمَةٍ سَوَاءٍ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَلَّا نَعْبُدَ إِلَّا اللَّـهَ وَلَا نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضًا أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللَّـهِ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَقُولُوا اشْهَدُوا بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ ﴿٦٤﴾
Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.
You can easily see what 'the prophet' ) is commanded to say to 'the People of the Book'. Surely, it is not Allah who is talking to the people of the book.
Peace!
Quote from: TellMeTheTruth on July 12, 2018, 05:17:18 PM
See this for example:
قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ تَعَالَوْا إِلَىٰ كَلِمَةٍ سَوَاءٍ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَلَّا نَعْبُدَ إِلَّا اللَّـهَ وَلَا نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضًا أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللَّـهِ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَقُولُوا اشْهَدُوا بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ ﴿٦٤﴾
Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.
You can easily see what 'the prophet' ) is commanded to say to 'the People of the Book'. Surely, it is not Allah who is talking to the people of the book.
Peace!
End this here.
Peace
Quote from: Jafar on July 08, 2018, 01:26:11 PM
Good, now the next why.
- Why they want / need to control the masses?
- Why they see the hadith will help them to obtain their objective?
To satisfy their greed for wealth and power.
Hadith gives them legitimacy to gather wealth and power.
Quote from: JafarGood, now the next why.
- Why they want / need to control the masses?
- Why they see the hadith will help them to obtain their objective?
Quote from: Novice on July 13, 2018, 03:51:39 AM
To satisfy their greed for wealth and power.
Hadith gives them legitimacy to gather wealth and power.
It seems the answer is quite simple. Discussed briefly here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
QuoteAccording to Parwez, support for the notion that sunna is wahy can be found neither in The Quran nor in the earlier traditions. Moreover, since neither the Prophet, nor his Companions, nor the early Caliphs considered anything to be revelation except The Quran, it is evident that the elevation of sunna to this status must have been a creation of later Muslims. He also speculates about what motives might have led to the establishment of this doctrine. The problem, he argues arises from The Quran itself where some commands are explicit while others are vague. For example, a penalty for adultery is clearly defined, while no punishment is laid down for consumption of alcohol: does this mean that drinking of it is allowed? Details such as the penalty for drinking were left to the Prophet and his successors to establish as sunna. God's intent was to allow such details to be changed according to circumstance. But later Muslims were faced with a challenge from non-Muslims and from dissenters in their own community: if commands and prohibitions not found in The Quran are important, why did God not establish these details Himself? And by what authority did the Prophet enforce commands not found in The Quran? In the face of such challenges, and afraid that anarchy would result if the basis for law was undercut, the ulama (Muslim scholars) adopted the idea that sunna is wahy (divine revelation). (p54-55)
Early Traditional Islamic history shows that in various regions Muslims were practicing their Islam differently, to different degrees. So, the religious clerics (seeing this as a problem) decided to fix beliefs/practice to something, i.e. introduce orthodoxy (which invariably involves transfer of knowledge/power from the masses to the few), and that something was sunna/hadith. The problem they had with this "solution" was of course the mix of truth/falsehood in their source materials, political influence, bias, rival factions etc, so they did the best they could with what they had. They probably thought they were doing a good service to the Muslim masses by making things more uniform, even if by hook or by crook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_hook_or_by_crook), but in actuality, they did a huge disservice to Muslims, or at least that is our view (those who follow a Quran based islam).
Quote from: Novice on July 13, 2018, 03:51:39 AM
To satisfy their greed for wealth and power.
Hadith gives them legitimacy to gather wealth and power.
Why it should be Hadith? Why not use the Quran? Or Bible? Or Torah? Or why not they themselves claimed they are divinely guided by a God?
Peace TellMeTheTruth.
What is irrelevant is what the prophet did or understood from Qoran.
Since Qoran is still here, see what you make of it yourself.
Even what others do or understand from Qoran is irrelevant as each individual is responsible only for their own dos and understandings.
And of course one can take or leave Qoran as well if they choose.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: Wakas on July 13, 2018, 05:15:36 AM
Early Traditional Islamic history shows that in various regions Muslims were practicing their Islam differently, to different degrees. So, the religious clerics (seeing this as a problem) decided to fix beliefs/practice to something, i.e. introduce orthodoxy (which invariably involves transfer of knowledge/power from the masses to the few), and that something was sunna/hadith. The problem they had with this "solution" was of course the mix of truth/falsehood in their source materials, political influence, bias, rival factions etc, so they did the best they could with what they had.
A common trait shared by "Fanatics".
Let's compare the description above with today's "Ultranationalism".
Using the description by Bugajski:
"Ultra-nationalism is marked by a xenophobic disdain of other nations, support for authoritarian political arrangements verging on totalitarianism, and a mythical emphasis on the "organic unity" between a charasmatic leader, an organizationally amorphous movement-type party, and the nation"
Injecting "Religious Orthodoxy" to the above definition:
"Religious Orthodoxy is marked by a xenophobic disdain of other Religion, support for authoritarian political arrangements verging on totalitarianism, and a mythical emphasis on the "organic unity" BASED ON a charismatic DEAD leader (Jesus, Muhammad), an organizationally amorphous movement-type party (Church, Majlis) and the nation/kingdom/caliphate/empire"
QuoteThey probably thought they were doing a good service to the Muslim masses by making things more uniform, even if by hook or by crook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_hook_or_by_crook), but in actuality, they did a huge disservice to Muslims, or at least that is our view (those who follow a Quran based islam).
In the same manner as Ultranationalist did a huge diservice to the citizen of the nation.
At some context, where the nation itself is based on a religion (ie: Ancient Israelite Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Italian Papal State, Abbasid Empire to name a few), it's truly indistinguishable between Ultranationalist and Ultrareligionist (Orthodoxy).
Quote from: Jafar on July 13, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
Why it should be Hadith?
To have a parallel man made system as per their wishes, whether sincerely or otherwise, as referenced by Wakas in his reply.
Quote from: Jafar on July 13, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
Why not use the Quran?
May be they could not find in Quran what they wanted to implement.
Quote from: Jafar on July 13, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
why not they themselves claimed they are divinely guided by a God?
Many have tried that but failed.
Quote from: Novice on July 14, 2018, 04:29:26 AM
To have a parallel man made system as per their wishes, whether sincerely or otherwise, as referenced by Wakas in his reply.
May be they could not find in Quran what they wanted to implement.
Many have tried that but failed.
So in summary: They wanted to extend the existing / already in place religion?
As they see that is easier than creating a new religion themselves?
The next question are:
Why they want to extend?
What is their target / desired state?
Continuing the previous post on Ultrareligionist / Religious Orthodoxy.
"Religious Orthodoxy is marked by a xenophobic disdain of other Religion, support for authoritarian political arrangements verging on
TOTALITARIANISM, and a mythical emphasis on the "organic unity" BASED ON a charismatic DEAD leader (Jesus, Muhammad), an organizationally amorphous movement-type party (Church, Majlis) and the nation/kingdom/caliphate/empire"
Herewith the definition of TOTALITARIANISM, emphasis given in bold.
"Totalitarianism is a political concept where the state recognizes
no limits to its authority and strives to control every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible. Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through
absolute rule by one leader (ie: Caliph, Prophet, Great Leader, Dictator, King) and an
all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the
state-controlled mass media (ie: routine Church Masses, Friday Prayer), a single power center that is often marked by
political repression, personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance and widespread use of terror. A distinctive feature of totalitarian governments is an:
elaborate ideology, a set of ideas that gives meaning and direction to the whole society"
Let's dig into the "Strives to control every aspect of public and private life" and "a set of ideas that gives meaning and direction to the whole society":
You all must have heard this often enough on how "Islam is the complete religion" on your friday sermon or other means, but as an example, let's quote one version of it:
From: http://www.quranreading.com
"The prime focus of Islam is to
make sure that maximum of its followers rest in heavens in the afterlife. However, in order to do so, the followers have to live this life according to the instructions of Islam and follow the path of righteousness. Unlike other religions, the path of righteousness is not related to religious traditions and obligations only, rather
righteousness is to be observed in every aspect of life and this is why Islam gives proper instructions to live life."
Again, the easier way to learn and extend from existing idea / doctrine / religion. Luckily there is an existing religion with similar concept to be copied from:
From: http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm
Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe.
Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as
halakhah.
So in summary:
- The goal and desired state is to achieve Totalitarianism?
- Hadith is used to extend the pre-existing Quran, which already have loyal and fanatics follower within the society, to make the Sharia (Law) more complete by controlling more detailed aspect of citizen public and private life?
- Sharia is invented by copying the existing ideas and construct of Halakhah?
Quote from: Jafar on July 14, 2018, 06:51:46 AM
So in summary: They wanted to extend the existing / already in place religion?
As they see that is easier than creating a new religion themselves.
The next question are:
Why they want to extend?
What is their target / desired state?
I guess after The Prophet they went back to their traditions. Quran did not allow them to hoard wealth and slaves, and oppress masses so they had to create a hadith based sharia to satisfy their desires.
Quote from: Jafar on July 14, 2018, 06:51:46 AM
So in summary:
- The goal and desired state is to achieve Totalitarianism?
- Hadith is used to extend the pre-existing Quran, which already have loyal and fanatics follower within the society, to make the Sharia (Law) more complete by controlling more detailed aspect of citizen public and private life?
- Sharia is invented by copying the existing ideas and construct of Halakhah?
I guess your summary is reasonable to accept. We see it all around us in all man made religions and systems.