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Science / History / Prophecy => Quran's Numerical Structure => Topic started by: ibn_a on April 21, 2018, 02:20:07 AM

Title: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 21, 2018, 02:20:07 AM
Salaam,


Chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee )  has 128 verses


-------------------------

The word  God الله is mentioned in 64 verses in chapter 16 Al-Nahl ( The Bee )

   64 = 16 ? 4

The word God  الله  in 64 verses                 The word God الله not mentioned in 64 verses

 64 + 64  = 128


-------------------------

The word  God   الله   is mentioned twice in 16 verses.
32 = 16 ? 2


-------------------------

The number of verses where the word God الله  is mentiond 1 or 3 times, is  48 verses
 48 = 16 ? 3

  -------               
             
The sum of these 48 verses is 3264
3264 =  16 ? 204


-------------------------

16  verses end with the letter  meem  م
The 16 words at the end of those verses:
 
الرجيم     رحيم   عظيم   الحكيم        
رحيم       رحيم   كظيم     اليم      
رحيم       رحيم   مستقيم     اليم      
رحيم      عظيم   مستقيم     اليم   



The last letters of the 128 verses  in chapter 16:

  ر            Ra                = 2 verses
  م            Meem           = 16 verses
  ن           Nun              = 110 verses


-------------------------

There are 16 words  repeated 2 times  at the end of the verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl.

 
المشركين   مستقيم   المبين   تذكرون      
يعملون   قدير   المتقين   تشكرون      
عظيم   يومنون   الكفرين   يعقلون      
للمسلمين   يتوكلون   يشعرون   مبين   


The verse numbers where these words are mentioned for the first time:

4+12+14+17+26+27+30+35+42+64+70+76+89+94+96+120  = 816

816 = 16 ? 51


-------------------------

The first letter of each verse of the 128 verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl  consist of 16  different letters

The first letters and the number of times they are repeated:

 
   ج   ب   ت   ض   ذ   ش   خ   ه   ق   م   ي   ل   ث   ف   ا     و         
   62   26    6    6     6    6   4    2    2    2     1     1       1     1    1     1       


-------------------------

The verse with the largest number of letter in chapter 16  Al-Nahl  is verse 92

and this verse has 128 letters ( same as the number of verses in this chapter ).


-------------------------



The word bee  النحل   is mentioned one time  in the Qur'an, in chapter 16 verse 68
this verse has 16 different letters.

و   ا   ح    ى   ر  ب  ك   ل   ن   ت   خ   ذ   م   ج   ش  ع


-------------------------

source:
Arabic:
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh)
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh)

English:
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266 (https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266)


The software for counting veres , words and letters,....( arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02 (http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02)

or

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view)






Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Rilum on April 21, 2018, 03:23:47 AM
Salam,

La illaha ilallah!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 21, 2018, 03:46:45 AM
Salaam Rilum,


Thanks for your interest.



74:31
We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

72:28
so as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He surrounds all that is with them, and He has counted the number of all things.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 25, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
Salaam,



There seems to be a link between chapter 16 Al-Nahl ( The Bee ) and
the number of chromosomes of honey bees.

- Drone ( male bee )  has 16 single chromosomes.
- Worker  ( female bee )  and queen  have 32 chromosomes organised as 16 pairs.


----16----

The word bee  النحل is mentioned one time  in the Qur'an, in chapter 16 verse 68,
this verse has 16 different letters.

و   ا   ح    ى   ر  ب  ك   ل   ن   ت   خ   ذ   م   ج   ش  ع



----16----

The first letter of each verse of the 128 verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl  consist of 16  different letters

The first letters and the number of times they are repeated:

 
   ج   ب   ت   ض   ذ   ش   خ   ه   ق   م   ي   ل   ث   ف   ا     و         
   62   26    6    6     6    6   4    2    2    2     1     1       1     1    1     1       



----16---

16  verses end with the letter  meem  م
The 16 words at the end of those verses:
 
الرجيم     رحيم   عظيم   الحكيم        
رحيم       رحيم   كظيم     اليم      
رحيم       رحيم   مستقيم     اليم      
رحيم      عظيم   مستقيم     اليم   



----32----

The word  God الله is mentioned twice in 16 verses in this chapter.

32 = 16 ? 2



----32----

The last letters of the 128 verses  in chapter 16:

  ر            Ra                = 2 verses
  م            Meem           = 16 verses
  ن           Nun              = 110 verses

32 = 16 ? 2


----32----

There are 16 words, each repeated 2 times  at the end of 32 verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl.
 
المشركين   مستقيم   المبين   تذكرون      
يعملون   قدير   المتقين   تشكرون      
عظيم   يومنون   الكفرين   يعقلون      
للمسلمين   يتوكلون   يشعرون   مبين   


32 = 16 ? 2



source:
Arabic:
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh)
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh)

English:
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266 (https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266)

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: IsaMuslim on April 26, 2018, 04:46:56 AM
Salaam,


Chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee )  has 128 verses


-------------------------

The word  God الله is mentioned in 64 verses in chapter 16 Al-Nahl ( The Bee )

   64 = 16 ? 4

The word God  الله  in 64 verses                 The word God الله not mentioned in 64 verses

 64 + 64  = 128


-------------------------

The word  God   الله   is mentioned twice in 16 verses.
32 = 16 ? 2


-------------------------

The number of verses where the word God الله  is mentiond 1 or 3 times, is  48 verses
 48 = 16 ? 3

  -------               
             
The sum of these 48 verses is 3264
3264 =  16 ? 204


-------------------------

16  verses end with the letter  meem  م
The 16 words at the end of those verses:
 
الرجيم     رحيم   عظيم   الحكيم        
رحيم       رحيم   كظيم     اليم      
رحيم       رحيم   مستقيم     اليم      
رحيم      عظيم   مستقيم     اليم   



The last letters of the 128 verses  in chapter 16:

  ر            Ra                = 2 verses
  م            Meem           = 16 verses
  ن           Nun              = 110 verses


-------------------------

There are 16 words  repeated 2 times  at the end of the verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl.

 
المشركين   مستقيم   المبين   تذكرون      
يعملون   قدير   المتقين   تشكرون      
عظيم   يومنون   الكفرين   يعقلون      
للمسلمين   يتوكلون   يشعرون   مبين   


The verse numbers where these words are mentioned for the first time:

4+12+14+17+26+27+30+35+42+64+70+76+89+94+96+120  = 816

816 = 16 ? 51


-------------------------

The first letter of each verse of the 128 verses in chapter 16  Al-Nahl  consist of 16  different letters

The first letters and the number of times they are repeated:

 
   ج   ب   ت   ض   ذ   ش   خ   ه   ق   م   ي   ل   ث   ف   ا     و         
   62   26    6    6     6    6   4    2    2    2     1     1       1     1    1     1       


-------------------------

The verse with the largest number of letter in chapter 16  Al-Nahl  is verse 92

and this verse has 128 letters ( same as the number of verses in this chapter ).


-------------------------



The word bee  النحل   is mentioned one time  in the Qur'an, in chapter 16 verse 68
this verse has 16 different letters.

و   ا   ح    ى   ر  ب  ك   ل   ن   ت   خ   ذ   م   ج   ش  ع


-------------------------

source:
Arabic:
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtoaPX8uCCh)
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh (https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir17874/#.WtoaQn8uCCh)

English:
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266 (https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1272266)


The software for counting veres , words and letters,....( arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02 (http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02)

or

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view)

Salaam,
Thanks for publishing your findings, from wherever we look at this Book, there is a meaning. Each word is in its position.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on May 18, 2018, 08:02:54 AM
Salaam,


- In this verse God says that he gave Moses 9 signs ( ayaat ).

  Chapter 17 Al-Isra: Verse 101

ولقد اتينا موسي تسع ايت بينت فسل بني اسريل اذ جاهم فقال له فرعون اني لاظنك يموسي مسحورا

To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: Ask the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
-------

- The number of times the name Moses موسي is associated with the word  ايت ( ayaat,signs ) in the Qur'an, is 9 times in 9 verses.


--------------------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 7 The heights  - Al-Araf: Verse 103

ثم بعثنا من بعدهم موسي بايتنا الي فرعون وملايه فظلموا بها فانظر كيف كان عقبه المفسدين

Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief.


--------------------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 10 Jonah - Yunus: Verse 75

ثم بعثنا من بعدهم موسي وهرون الي فرعون وملايه بايتنا فاستكبروا وكانوا قوما مجرمين 

Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.


--------------------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 11 Hud  Verse 96

ولقد ارسلنا موسي بايتنا وسلطن مبين
.
And we sent Moses, with Our signs and an authority manifest.


--------------------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 14 Abraham - Ibrahim: Verse 5

ولقد ارسلنا موسي بايتنا ان اخرج قومك من الظلمت الي النور وذكرهم باييم الله ان في ذلك لايت لكل صبار شكور

We sent Moses with Our signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant,- grateful and appreciative.


--------------------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 17 Al-Isra: Verse 101

ولقد اتينا موسي تسع ايت بينت فسل بني اسريل اذ جاهم فقال له فرعون اني لاظنك يموسي مسحورا

To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!


--------------------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 23 The Believers  Verse 45

ثم ارسلنا موسي واخاه هرون بايتنا وسلطن مبين

Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest.


--------------------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 28 The Story  - Al-Qasas: Verse 36

فلما جاهم موسي بايتنا بينت قالوا ما هذا الا سحر مفتري وما سمعنا بهذا في اباينا الاولين

When Moses came to them with Our clear signs, they said: "This is nothing but sorcery faked up: never did we head the like among our fathers of old!"


--------------------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 40 The Forgiver  - Ghafir: Verse 23

ولقد ارسلنا موسي بايتنا وسلطن مبين

And We sent Moses, with Our Signs and an authority manifest.


--------------------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 43 Ornaments - Az-Zukhruf: Verse 46

ولقد ارسلنا موسي بايتنا الي فرعون وملايه فقال اني رسول رب العلمين

We did send Moses , with Our Signs, to Pharaoh and his Chiefs: He said, "I am a messenger of the Lord of the Worlds."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

note: the word Moses موسي   is mentioned 136 times in 131 verses in 34 chapters in the Qur'an.



source ( arabic ) :
http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/5.htm


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on June 04, 2018, 01:14:12 AM
Salaam,


Chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee )


1-

The  Arabic alphabet contains 28 letters.

16 of those letters are not used in verse 16 in this chapter.

16:16   And landmarks, and by the star they are guided.

وعلمت وبالنجم هم يهتدون

The 16 letters not used :

   ك    ق    ف    غ    ظ    ط    ض    ص    ش    س   ز    ر    ذ    خ    ح     ث

----------


2-

The number of verses from the beginning of chapter 16 to the end of chapter 32 is 1632 verses.


16     17     18  19   20     21    22   23   24   25   26   27  28  29  30  31  32                   chapters
128  111  110  98  135  112    78  118  64   77  227  93  88  69  60  34  30  = 1632     verses

----------


1 source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oc65915hKU
2 source: from a comment on the video ( author: M kai )


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on June 06, 2018, 01:43:00 AM
Salaam,


Chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee ) 


Relation between the  bee النحل and honey عسل  in the Qur'an.

The word honey is mentioned one time in the Qur'an in verse 15 chapter 47 Muhammad.

The word bee is mentioned one time in the Qur'an in verse 68 in chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee ). 

- From the end of the Qur'an to chapter 47 Muhammad  there are 68 chapters.

- From chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee ) to chapter 47 Muhammad there are 32 chapters.


- From  veres 68 in chapter 16  Al-Nahl ( The Bee )   to verse 15 in chapter 47 Muhammad  there are 2592 verses.

2592  = 16  ?  162

2592  =  32  ?  81

162  is also the number of letters of verse 15 in chapter 47 Muhammad.


- Drone ( male bee )  has 16 single chromosomes.
- Worker  ( female )  and queen  have 32 chromosomes organised as 16 pairs.



----------

16:68 And [consider how] thy Sustainer has inspired the bee: "Prepare for thyself dwellings in mountains and in trees, and in what [men] may build [for thee by way of hives]

واوحي ربك الي النحل ان اتخذي من الجبال بيوتا ومن الشجر ومما يعرشون

-----------

47:15  [And can] the parable of the paradise which the God-conscious are promised [a paradise] wherein there are rivers of water which time does not corrupt, and rivers of milk the taste whereof never alters, and rivers of wine delightful to those who drink it,and rivers of honey of all impurity cleansed, and the enjoyment of all the fruits [of their good deeds] and of forgiveness from their Sustainer -: can this [parable of paradise] be likened unto [the parable of the recompense of] such as are to abide in the fire and be given waters of burning despair to drink, so that it will tear their bowels asunder?

مثل الجنه التي وعد المتقون فيها انهر من ما غير اسن وانهر من لبن لم يتغير طعمه وانهر من خمر لذه للشربين وانهر من عسل مصفي ولهم فيها من كل الثمرت ومغفره من ربهم كمن هو خلد في النار وسقوا ما حميما فقطع امعاهم

------------




The software for counting verses , words and letters,....( arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02

or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: IsaMuslim on June 06, 2018, 05:13:39 AM
Subhan Allah.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 02, 2018, 08:01:58 AM
Salaam,


The 59 th verse of the chapter ?The Family of Imran? points to a similarity between Adam and Jesus.
There is no other comparison like that between any other two prophets in the Quran.

----------------------------------
3:59

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
(M. M. Pickthall)
-----------------
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. (Yusuf Ali)
-----------------
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ
-----------------
Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu.
----------------------------------


Some people declare Jesus is the incarnation of God, as he was created without a father. This is in total disregard of the omnipotence of God. God gives Adam as an example, and by doing so, God shows how illogical it is to attribute divine qualities to Jesus.
God, while referring to the similarity between Adam and Jesus, also supports this statement with a numerical symmetry, using both names 25 times each in the Quran.

-----------------

The number of times the word Adam is mentioned from the beginning of the Qur?an up to 3:59, is 7 times, and the number of times the word Jesus is mentioned from the beginning of the Qur?an up to this verse is also 7 times.

The two names occurs together in chapter 3:59 in the 19 th place if we count from the end of the Qur?an.

-----------------

The 19 th word "Adam" and the 19 th word "Jesus" occurs both one time in the 19 th Chapter (Maryam, Maria).

-----------------

The 19 th word "Jesus" occurs in chapter 19, verse 34.
The 19 th word "Adam" occurs in chapter 19, verse 58.

And from the verse 34 to verse 58 there are 25 verses, and as we know the number 25 is the occurrence of the two names.

-----------------


 
   THE WORD 'ADAM' IN THE QUR?AN
            
count                        Part of verse                           Chapter:Verse 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1   And he taught Adam all the names     2:31      
 2   He said : O Adam! Inform them of their names      2:33      
 3   Prostrate yourselves before Adam      2:34      
 4   O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden      2:35      
 5   Then Adam received Words from his Lord      2:37      
 6   Indeed! God chose Adam        3:33      
 7   Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam      3:59      
 8   Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam    5:27      
 9   Then We bade the angels bow down to Adam   7:11      
10   O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden      7:19      
11   - O Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you      7:26      
12   O Children of Adam! Let not Satan deceive you      7:27      
13   O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment at every place of worship      7:31      
14   O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers       7:35      
15   And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam      7:172      
16   Prostrate to Adam    17:61      
17   Verily We have honoured the Children of Adam      17:70      
18   Prostrate to Adam     18:50      
19   of the offspring of Adam     19:58      
20   And indeed We made a covenant with Adam before   20:115      
21   Prostrate yourselves to Adam      20:116      
22   O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife      20:117      
23   O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity       20:120      
24   Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray      20:121      
25   Did I not ordain for you, O Children of Adam, that you should not worship Satan    36:60   

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   THE WORD 'JESUS' IN THE QUR?AN
            
count          Part of verse                                                      Chapter:Verse   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------            
 1   We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear Signs     2:87      
 2   and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord      2:136      
 3   to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs)      2:253      
 4   Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus      3:45      
 5   Then when Jesus came to know of their disbelief      3:52      
 6   O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself      3:55      
 7   Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam      3:59      
 8   and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord      3:84      
 9   And because of their saying : We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary       4:157      
10   we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus      4:163      
11   The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah      4:171      
12   We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him   5:46      
13   by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary      5:78      
14   O Jesus , son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother      5:110      
15   O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table spread      5:112      
16   Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, our Lord      5:114      
17   O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Worship me and my mother      5:116      
18   And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias       6:85      
19   Such is Jesus, son of Mary   19:34      
20   and from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus      33:7      
21   that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus    42:13      
22   When Jesus came with Clear Signs   43:63      
23   We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary    57:27      
24   And remember Jesus the son of Mary    61:6      
25   As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples       61:14   




source:
http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/num...jesus-and-adam
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/adam-and-jesus/
http://www.answering-christianity.com/fakir60/jesus.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsOY5drBvNc (15 min)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: huruf on August 02, 2018, 09:18:45 AM
I get 23 times as 3isaa Ibnu Maryam and six just as 3isaa

three  times as al masih and three times as al Masih ibnu Maryam

Salaam
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 02, 2018, 10:38:20 AM
I get 23 times as 3isaa Ibnu Maryam and six just as 3isaa

three  times as al masih and three times as al Masih ibnu Maryam

Salaam

Salaam,



9 times
Jesus   3isaa      عيسي       
----------------------------------------------
2:136
3:52  3:55   3:59    3:84
4:163
6:85
42:13
43:63


13 times
Jesus son of Mary         3isaa Ibnu Maryam            عيسي ابن مريم     
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2:87
2:253
5:46   5:78   5:110   5:112   5:114   5:116
19:34
33:7
57:27
61:6     61:14



3 times
The Messiah Jesus son of Mary          al Masih 3isaa ibnu Maryam          المسيح عيسي ابن مريم
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
3:45
4:157    4:171


Total 25 times.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: huruf on August 02, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
3isa with ibnu Maryama or without 25 times

Al masih ibnu Maryam  no 3isa three times

Ibnu Maryama no masih no 3isa one time

Salaam
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 03, 2018, 12:35:44 AM
3isa with ibnu Maryama or without 25 times

Al masih ibnu Maryam  no 3isa three times

Ibnu Maryama no masih no 3isa one time

Salaam
Bold: that is what is counted.


Salaam,


What is counted, are  the occurrences of the word " Jesus   3isaa      عيسي " regardless of the title:
 " Messiah   al Masih    المسيح " or  "son of Mary  ibnu Maryam       ابن مريم ".


- Occurrences of the word "Jesus" in the  Quran = 25 times.

- Occurrences of the word "Adam"  in the  Quran = 25 times.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 08, 2018, 12:34:27 AM
Salaam,



... twelve months in the book of Allah ...

is the literally meaning of:

... ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allah ...

... اثنا عشر شهرا في كتب الله ...

From chapter 9 verse 36

--------------------------------

The triliteral root shīn hā rā (ش ه ر) " month " occurs 21 times in the Quran as the noun shahr (شهر ).
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%24hr


- 12 times in singular form.

- 2 times in dual form.

- 7 times in plural form.


                                            Singular

Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                2:185                شهر                     shahr
2                2:185               الشهر                    al-shahr
3                2:194                الشهر                   al-shahr
4                2:194               بالشهر                    bil-shahr
5                2:217                الشهر                   al-shahr
6                5:2                   الشهر                    al-shahr
7                5:97                 والشهر                   wal-shahr
8                9:36                 شهرا                     shahran
9               34:12                 شهر                    shahr
10             34:12                 شهر                    shahr
11             46:15                شهرا                    shahran
12             97:3                  شهر                     shahr

----

                                          Dual

Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                 4:92                   شهرين               shahrayn
2                 58:4                   شهرين               shahrayn

----

                                       Plural

Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1              2:197                    اشهر                     ashhur
2              2:226                    اشهر                     ashhur
3              2:234                    اشهر                     ashhur
4              9:2                        اشهر                     ashhur
5              9:5                      الاشهر                     al-ashhur
6              9:36                    الشهور                     al-shuhūr
7              65:4                     اشهر                      ashhur


-------------------------------------------

note:

In 9:36, 46:15 and 97:3,
the meaning (and translation ) is plural but the word " month" ( شهر , شهرا ) in arabic is singular

-------------------------------------------

Some examples from the Quran where the meaning is plural but the word in arabic is singular:

2:51
Forty night(s). The word " night" ( ليله ) in arabic is singular.

arbaAAeena laylatan

اربعين ليله

-----

29:14
Thousand year(s). The word " year" ( سنه ) in arabic is singular.

alfa sanatin

الف سنه
...

-------------------------------------------

Objective conclusion:

3 ways of counting the word "month(s)":

- 21 occurrences of the word "month(s)" in all forms.

- 12 occurrences of the word "month" in singular form.

- 9 occurrences of the word "month" in singular meaning.


-------------------------------------------

source:
http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/3.htm
www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%24hr


   
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 19, 2018, 07:35:57 AM
Salaam,



The name "Allah" followed by the word loves يحب ( yuhibbu ) is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.

           الله يحب             Allah loves                Allah  yuhibbu
 
2:195     2:222      3:76     3:134     3:146     3:148     3:159     5:13   
5:42       5:93        9:4         9:7       9:108      49:9      60:8       61:4     

    ----------------------------------------------------

The opposite:

The name "Allah" followed by the words ( does ) not love لا يحب ( la yuhibbu ) is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.

 الله لا يحب            Allah does not love            Allah la yuhibbu
 
2:190     2:205     2:276     3:32     3:57     3:140     4:36     4:107

5:64      5:87       8:58     22:38    28:76    28:77     31:18    57:23

    ----------------------------------------------------

note:
The folllowing 2 verses ( 3:31, 4:148 ) in the Qur'an, seem to mark a difference with the 2 ? 16 other occurrences.

    - 1 -

In a different form and word order:

" Allah will love you " is mentioned one time in 3:31 , the words used here are:   يحببكم الله


    يحببكم الله                    <--difference-->           الله يحب

    yuhbibkumu Allah                                       Allah yuhibbu

    Allah will love you                                       Allah loves
       
    1 time                                                            16 times
       

3:31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." - (Y. Ali)

Qul in kuntum tuhibboona Allaha faittabiAAoonee yuhbibkumu Allahu wayaghfir lakum thunoobakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun

قل ان كنتم تحبون الله فاتبعوني يحببكم الله ويغفر لكم ذنوبكم والله غفور رحيم

    ----------------------------------------------------

    - 2 -

The same meaning " Allah does not love "
is mentioned another time in the Qur'an, in 4:148 , the same words , but in a different order :
لا يحب الله


    لا يحب الله                 <--difference-->         الله لا يحب

    la yuhibbu Allah                                        Allah la yuhibbu
    not does love Allah                                  Allah does not love

    1 time                                                         16 times


4:148 Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things. (Y. Ali)

La yuhibbu Allahu aljahra bialssooi mina alqawli illa man thulima wakana Allahu sameeAAan AAaleeman

لا يحب الله الجهر بالسو من القول الا من ظلم وكان الله سميعا عليما

----------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

    الله يحب               <--opposite-->           الله لا يحب

    Allah yuhibbu                                    Allah la yuhibbu
    Allah loves                                        Allah does not love

    16 times                                                16 times

                            ------------------------

    الله لا يحب                                                      يحببكم الله   

    yuhbibkumu Allah                            la yuhibbu Allah
    Allah will love you                           not does love Allah

     1 time                                                 1 time




source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJvulk2cZvU
11:10 min
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 20, 2018, 01:49:14 AM
Salaam,





Conclusion:

    الله يحب               <--opposite-->           الله لا يحب

    Allah yuhibbu                                    Allah la yuhibbu
    Allah loves                                        Allah does not love

    16 times                                                16 times

                            ------------------------

  الله لا يحب                                                     يحببكم الله    ?

    yuhbibkumu Allah                            la yuhibbu Allah
    Allah will love you                           not does love Allah

     1 time                                                 1 time
?

 ?  Sorry for this error, should be:

                         ------------------------

        لا يحب الله                              يحببكم الله   
 
    yuhbibkumu Allah                            la yuhibbu Allah
    Allah will love you                           not does love Allah

     1 time                                                 1 time


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Rilum on August 20, 2018, 03:06:26 AM
Salaam,

aha.

Salaam.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 24, 2018, 09:29:32 AM
Salaam,



Some words in the Quran are spelled in a "particular way",

example:

In 21:88 the word NUNJY نُـۨجِى ( translated as: We save / We deliver ) is spelled with one Nun(N) ن ,
and with an extra Nun(N) ن on top of the word (for reading / recitation purpose), while in the rest of the Quran it is spelled NUNJY ننجي with double Nun (NN) نن

21:88 So We responded to him, and We saved him from the distress. And thus We save the believers.

In the " Uthmanic script "( Rasm al Uthmani ) of the Quran ( before the diacritics for reading purpose were added ),
 there is no Nun(N) ن on top of the word  NUNJY نُـۨجِى

The word is spelled as:

NJY ............... نجي

Nun (N) ن   Jim (J) ج     Ya (Y) ي



-------------------

In the preceding verse ( 21:87 ) there seems to be an indication about the particular spelling of this word.
This verse contains the expression : and Dha-Nun و ذا النون ; litteral meaning: the one with the Nun(N) ن

21:87 And Dha-Nun when he went (while) angry and thought that never We would decree upon him. Then he called in the darkness(es) that, "(There is) no god except You, Glory be to You! Indeed, I am of the wrongdoers."

Commentators of the Quran say that " Dha-Nun" is referring to Yunus (Jonah).

The name Yunus is mentioned 4 times in the Quran:

4:163 6:86 10:98 37:139


-----

Another reference to Yunus in 68:48 as Sahibi Alhoot ( the companion of the fish / him of the fish ).

- Chapter 68 has the initial letter Nun(N) ن

Interesting how the Quran does not name Yunus (Jonah), but refer to him as:

Dha-Nun ( the one with the Nun(N) ) and as Sahibi Alhoot ( the companion of the fish / him of the fish )


68:48 So be patient for (the) decision (of) your Lord, and (do) not be like (the) companion (of) the fish, when he called out, while he (was) distressed.


All this draws attention to the letter Nun(N) ن


---------------------

Interesting observations about the words with double Nun (NN) نن in the Quran :

In the Quran there are 142 words with double Nun (NN) نن in 133 verses

133 = 19 ? 7

If the word NUNJY نُـۨجِى was not spelled in this " particular way ", the number of verses with double Nun (NN) نن would not be a multiple of 19


More observations:

From these 133 verses only one verse is numbered 19 ( in chapter 6)

- and it is in this verse that the 19 th occurance of the words with double Nun (NN) نن is mentioned

- and this verse consists of 19 different letters

ا . ب . ت .ح .خ . د . ذ . ر . ش .ع .غ . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي

- and has 133 total letters.

-----

From these 133 verses there are 19 verses which consist of 19 different letters each.

The sum of these 19 verse numbers is 1330

1330 = 19 ? 70

And the sum of the chapter numbers in which these 19 verses occur is 323

323 = 19 ? 17

-----


The 19 verses which consist of 19 different letters

count    chapter    verse
      
1                  3         187
2                  6         19
3                             114
4                             161
5                  7         134
6                             149
7                10          14
8                92
9                94
10              12         32
11                           33
12              13         41
13              16         81
14              20         58
15              31         23
16              39         65
17              41         22
18              61         5
19              64         6
                   =          =
sum         323       1330
   


chapter verse          arabic text - the 19 different letters - English translation

3:187    و اذ اخذ الله ميثق الذين اوتوا الكتب لتبيننه للناس و لا تكتمونه فنبذوه ورا ظهورهم و اشتروا به ثمنا قليلا فبيس ما يشترون
      ا . ب . ت . ث . ج . ذ . ر . س . ش . ظ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي

      And when Allah took a Covenant (from) those who were given the Book, "You certainly make it clear to the mankind and (do) not conceal it. Then they threw it behind their backs and they exchanged [with] it (for) a little price. And wretched (is) what they purchase.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6:19    قل اي شي اكبر شهده قل الله شهيد بيني و بينكم و اوحي الي هذا القران لانذركم به و من بلغ اينكم لتشهدون ان مع الله الهه اخري قل لا اشهد قل انما هو اله وحد و انني بري مما تشركون
      ا . ب . ت .ح .خ . د . ذ . ر . ش .ع .غ . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Say, "What thing (is) greatest (as) a testimony?" Say, "Allah (is) Witness between me and between you, and has been revealed to me this [the] Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches. Do you truly testify that with Allah (there are) gods other?" Say, "I (do) not testify." Say, "Only He (is) One God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate (with Him).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6:114    افغير الله ابتغي حكما و هو الذي انزل اليكم الكتب مفصلا و الذين اتينهم الكتب يعلمون انه منزل من ربك بالحق فلا تكونن من الممترين
      ا . ب . ت . ح . ذ . ر . ز . ص .ع .غ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Then is (it) other than Allah I seek (as) judge, while He (is) the One Who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail? And those (to) whom We gave them the Book, they know that it (is) sent down from your Lord in truth, so (do) not be among the ones who doubt.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6:161    قل انني هديني ربي الي صرط مستقيم دينا قيما مله ابرهيم حنيفا و ما كان من المشركين
      ا . ب . ت .ح . د . ر . س . ش . ص . ط . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Say, "Indeed (as for) me, has guided me my Lord to a straight path - a religion right, religion (of) Ibrahim - a true monotheist. And not he was from the polytheists.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7:134    و لما وقع عليهم الرجز قالوا يموسي ادع لنا ربك بما عهد عندك لين كشفت عنا الرجز لنومنن لك و لنرسلن معك بني اسريل
      ا . ب . ت .ج . د . ر . ز . س . ش .ع . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And when fell on them the punishment, they said, "O Musa! Invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised to you. If you remove from us the punishment surely, we will believe [for] you and surely, we will send with you (the) Children (of) Israel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7:149    و لما سقط في ايديهم و راوا انهم قد ضلوا قالوا لين لم يرحمنا ربنا و يغفر لنا لنكونن من الخسرين
      ا . ب . ح . خ . د . ر . س . ض . ط . غ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And when they were regretful and they saw that they (had) indeed gone astray, they said, "If Our Lord does not have Mercy on us and forgive [for] us, we will surely be among the losers."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10:14    ثم جعلنكم خليف في الارض من بعدهم لننظر كيف تعملون
      ا . ب . ت . ث . ج . خ . د . ر . ض . ظ . ع . ف . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Then We made you successors in the earth after them so that We may see how you do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10:92    فاليوم ننجيك ببدنك لتكون لمن خلفك ايه و ان كثيرا من الناس عن ايتنا لغفلون
      ا . ب . ت . ث . ج . خ . د . ر . س . ع . غ . ف . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      So today We will save you in your body, that you may be for (those) who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the mankind of Our Signs (are) surely heedless.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10:94    فان كنت في شك مما انزلنا اليك فسل الذين يقرون الكتب من قبلك لقد جاك الحق من ربك فلا تكونن من الممترين
      ا . ب . ت . ج . ح . د . ذ . ر . ز . س . ش . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . و . ي
      So if you are in doubt of what We have revealed to you, then ask those who (have been) reading the Book before you. Verily, has come to you the truth from your Lord, so (do) not be among the doubters.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12:32    قالت فذلكن الذي لمتنني فيه و لقد رودته عن نفسه فاستعصم و لين لم يفعل ما امره ليسجنن و ليكونا من الصغرين
      ا . ت . ج . د . ذ . ر . س . ص . ع . غ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      She said, "That (is) the one, you blamed me about him. And certainly I sought to seduce him, [from] [himself] but he saved himself, and if not he does what I order him, surely, he will be imprisoned and certainly will be of those who brought low.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12:33    قال رب السجن احب الي مما يدعونني اليه و الا تصرف عني كيدهن اصب اليهن و اكن من الجهلين
      ا . ب . ت . ج . ح . د . ر . س . ص . ع . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      He said, "My Lord, the prison (is) dearer to me than what they invite me to it. And unless You turn away from me their plot I might incline towards them and be of the ignorant."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13:41    اولم يروا انا ناتي الارض ننقصها من اطرافها و الله يحكم لا معقب لحكمه و هو سريع الحساب
      ا . ب . ت . ح . ر . س . ص . ض . ط . ع . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Did not they see that We come (to) the land, reducing it from its borders? And Allah judges; (there is) no adjuster (of) His Judgment. And He (is) Swift (in) the reckoning.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16:81    و الله جعل لكم مما خلق ظللا و جعل لكم من الجبال اكننا و جعل لكم سربيل تقيكم الحر و سربيل تقيكم باسكم كذلك يتم نعمته عليكم لعلكم تسلمون
      ا . ب . ت . ج . ح . خ . ذ . ر . س . ظ . ع . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And Allah (has) made for you from what He created, shades and (has) made for you from the mountains, shelters and (has) made for you garments to protect you (from) the heat and garments to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus He completes His Favor upon you so that you may submit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

20:58    فلناتينك بسحر مثله فاجعل بيننا و بينك موعدا لا نخلفه نحن و لا انت مكانا سوي
      ا . ب . ت . ث . ج . ح . خ . د . ر . س . ع . ف . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      Then we will surely produce for you magic like it. So make between us and between you an appointment, not we will fail it [we] and not you, (in) a place even.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

31:23    و من كفر فلا يحزنك كفره الينا مرجعهم فننبيهم بما عملوا ان الله عليم بذات الصدور
      ا . ب . ت . ج . ح . د . ذ . ر . ز . ص . ع . ف . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And whoever disbelieves, let not grieve you his disbelief. To Us (is) their return, then We will inform them of what they did. Indeed, Allah (is) the All-Knower of what (is in) the breasts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

39:65    و لقد اوحي اليك و الي الذين من قبلك لين اشركت ليحبطن عملك و لتكونن من الخسرين
      ا . ب . ت . ح . خ . د . ذ . ر . س . ش . ط . ع . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . و . ي
      And verily, it has been revealed to you and to those who (were) before you, if you associate (with Allah) surely, will become worthless your deeds and you will surely be among the losers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

41:22    و ما كنتم تستترون ان يشهد عليكم سمعكم و لا ابصركم و لا جلودكم و لكن ظننتم ان الله لا يعلم كثيرا مما تعملون
      ا . ب . ت . ث . ج . د . ر . س . ش . ص . ظ . ع . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And not you were covering yourselves lest testify against you your hearing and not your sight and not your skins, but you assumed that Allah (does) not know much of what you do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

61:5    و اذ قال موسي لقومه يقوم لم توذونني و قد تعلمون اني رسول الله اليكم فلما زاغوا ازاغ الله قلوبهم و الله لا يهدي القوم الفسقين
      ا . ب . ت . د . ذ . ر . ز . س . ع . غ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي
      And when said Musa to his people, "O my people! Why do you hurt me while certainly you know that I am (the) Messenger of Allah to you?" Then when they deviated, Allah caused their hearts to deviate. And Allah (does) not guide the people, the defiantly disobedient.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

64:6    ذلك بانه كانت تاتيهم رسلهم بالبينت فقالوا ابشر يهدوننا فكفروا و تولوا و استغني الله و الله غني حميد
      ا . ب . ت . ح . د . ذ . ر . س . ش . غ . ف . ق . ك . ل . م . ن . ه . و . ي

      That (is) because had come to them their Messengers with clear proofs, but they said, "Shall human beings guide us?" So they disbelieved and turned away. And Allah can do without them. And Allah (is) Self-sufficient, Praiseworthy.
      




Source:

-The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 24, 2018, 11:48:48 AM
Some people will say "so what"?
Some people will say !wow"!!!
Some people will mock, some people will be amazed.
full
So that also explains why surah "N" has 133 N s.

WOW that is amazing.
Praise be to GOD ,Author of Qoran and Lord of the universe.

Watch  for those that try to imitate a tiny bit of the 19 miracle with today s  computer ,then claim it is simple numerology.
The challenge from the Author is ongoing even to the next generation of quantum computers.
Well, each to their choice .
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 24, 2018, 11:51:14 PM

Salaam,




The 19 verses which consist of 19 different letters

count    chapter    verse
      
1                  3         187
2                  6         19
3                             114
4                             161
5                  7         134
6                             149
7                10          14
8                92
9                94
10              12         32
11                           33
12              13         41
13              16         81
14              20         58
15              31         23
16              39         65
17              41         22
18              61         5
19              64         6
                   =          =
sum              323         1330
   



Sorry for this error, should be:



The 19 verses which consist of 19 different letters

count    chapter    verse
      
1                  3         187
2                  6         19
3                             114
4                             161
5                  7         134
6                             149
7                10          14
8                             92
9                             94
10              12         32
11                           33
12              13         41
13              16         81
14              20         58
15              31         23
16              39         65
17              41         22
18              61         5
19              64         6
                   =          =
sum              323         1330
   






Some people will say "so what"?
Some people will say !wow"!!!
Some people will mock, some people will be amazed.
full
So that also explains why surah "N" has 133 N s.

WOW that is amazing.
Praise be to GOD ,Author of Qoran and Lord of the universe.

Watch  for those that try to imitate a tiny bit of the 19 miracle with today s  computer ,then claim it is simple numerology.
The challenge from the Author is ongoing even to the next generation of quantum computers.
Well, each to their choice .
GOD bless.
Peace.
Thanks for your reply.
In chapter 68 i count 132 letters Nun(N) ن with the basmalah  , or 131 without the basmalah.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 25, 2018, 02:17:32 AM
Peace brother.
133 as far as I counted. NUN at the beginning of the surah, has 2 N s Why? because GOD in his wisdom has not named younes in the two verses you are talking about for the following 2 reasons:
1- To show us that Nun in surah 68 is spelled with 2 N s.
2- God has not named "younes" but "Sahibi Al Hut" to not make the count 134. a deliberate wording from the author to keep the count of N s accurate .
And there is your reason for the two different ways of calling younes.
Also ,the double N s words in Qoran match surah 68 count of 133 and are deliberate to confirm the initial N of the surah is spelled with 2 N s.
My understanding and counting brother.
Thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 25, 2018, 08:53:52 AM
Salaam,


Peace brother.
133 as far as I counted. NUN at the beginning of the surah, has 2 N s Why? because GOD in his wisdom has not named younes in the two verses you are talking about for the following 2 reasons:
1- To show us that Nun in surah 68 is spelled with 2 N s.
2- God has not named "younes" but "Sahibi Al Hut" to not make the count 134. a deliberate wording from the author to keep the count of N s accurate .
And there is your reason for the two different ways of calling younes.
Also ,the double N s words in Qoran match surah 68 count of 133 and are deliberate to confirm the initial N of the surah is spelled with 2 N s.
My understanding and counting brother.
Thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

- That seems an interesting observation, but doesn't that contradict with God's  promise to preserve the Quran?

-----

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41  Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42  Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

85:21 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22 In a Tablet, Guarded.

-----

- My understanding of these verses is that the Quran we have today is preserved.


- There could be another explanation for  chapter 68 having 132 letters Nun(N)  ن  with the basmalah,  or 131 without the basmalah.


-Is there an existing or older Quran or manuscript where the initial letters in chapter 68  is spelled with 2 N s ?
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 25, 2018, 09:05:32 AM
Interesting observations about the words with double Nun (NN) نن in the Quran :

In the Quran there are 142 words with double Nun (NN) نن in 133 verses

Correct # of words 142 / 19 = 7.47 not multiple!?

Chapter 68 consistently spelled with a single (N) ن in oldest manuscripts.
 
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=163

link with translation: https://s15.postimg.cc/in4af2a3f/ch67v25_-_ch68v21.jpg

btw, all this is statistically meaningless i.e.
1) get an idea
2) peruse different combinations of "any" text
3) show only 1/19 hits and hide 18/19 failures

peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 25, 2018, 03:31:33 PM
The way Qoran is preserved is through its mathematical composition.
Interlock does this.  Every letter, word sentence and chapter are locked mathematically and this check agrees with the hafs version of Qoran.
This renders any other manuscript as the ones with spelling mistakes.
Thanks brother.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 25, 2018, 08:29:10 PM
The way Qoran is preserved is through its mathematical composition.
Interlock does this.  Every letter, word sentence and chapter are locked mathematically and this check agrees with the hafs version of Qoran.
This renders any other manuscript as the ones with spelling mistakes.

Peace good logic, you keep posting stuff that you nor anyone else can prove, why?

OK show using code/interlock, call friends, etc. 1st word 72:16 وان لو or والو ?

Is it spelled with ن as in older manuscripts ? not sure if these are hafs/warsh, etc.?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=56
see manuscript 3rd line with N وان لو

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=480
see manuscript 4th line with N وان لو

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=170
see manuscript 11th line with N وان لو

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=24
see manuscript 12th/last line with N وان لو 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=163
see manuscript 21st line with N وان لو

link with translation: https://s15.postimg.cc/hrdbg1asr/ch72v1_-_18.jpg
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2018, 12:10:02 AM
Peace brother Noon.
We keep going back and forth with this conversation.
I am saying ,all along my argument about the mathematical composition of the original Qoran, that I have my proof/evidence according to my own checking.
I am providing my understanding/views and you are providing your brought forth old manuscripts. Both our findings/views need to be checked.

You also know that any manuscript, unless proven to be the original Qoran, could differ in spelling of certain words like hafs and warsh do. Just how are you checking your mushaf? Or are you relying on carbon dating/history?

I am saying I am checking mine with interlock. I have the tools that lock every letter, word, sentence and chapter into place, just like the Author of Qoran planned its preservation. Mathematically composed for certainty that it is the original Qoran. Preserved as such.
https://submission.org/verify_are_all_Arabic_versions_of_Quran_the_same.html
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Layth on August 26, 2018, 12:24:44 AM
Salam,

Just to jump in here, Sura 68 has 132 "N".

This argument that "N" at the beginning is spelt "NwN" is nonsense as a) it contradicts the spelling of all other individual letters in all other initialed Suras, and b) there is no evidence in any of the oldest manuscripts of such a spelling.

Regards,
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2018, 12:41:36 AM
Thank you brother layth for your view.

Like I said to brother Noon earlier in my post:
Just how do you prove any mushaf is the original copy with all the right spelling?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2018, 12:58:46 AM
Also brother,, there is no "N"in other initiated surahs on their own.
I am saying GOD wanted to spell NUN insurah 68 for the reasons explained ,like some rules that we think are the norm are broken by the author of Qoran regarding the spelling of certain words like withholding the name of younes  in the verses discussed here...etc. according to my findings and deduction.
For me the mathematical composition explains certain anomalies that no one can solve/prove in the different spellings of certain words and  the letter N  in mushafs.
 GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2018, 01:51:57 AM
I am saying I am checking mine with interlock. I have the tools that lock every letter, word, sentence and chapter into place, just like the Author of Qoran planned its preservation.

peace, can please share interlock tool apply to 72:16 وان لو or والو ?

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Layth on August 26, 2018, 04:46:06 AM
Salam,

Quote
Also brother,, there is no "N"in other initiated surahs on their own.

You are failing to see the obvious here...

Is "S" in sura 38 spelt "SAD" (3 letters) or is it simply "S" (1 letter)?

Just because you need an extra "N" does not allow you to manipulate the text to be written "phonetically" (I know it was Rashad who did this first and not you - my comment is not being personal).
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2018, 05:10:37 AM
Peace Layth.
I see what you are trying to get at. That the letter N is spelt "NUN".
NO ,not necessarily. I am saying in chapter 68,GOD in His composition of the text has spelt it "NUN", and explained why as far as my findings and checking goes..
See the examples and anomalies we are talking about here in this thread.
Like 21:87:وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why is the letter N spelt "NUN" here as well? What is the relationship between this and surah 68?
My view this is telling us that  "N" in chapter 68 is spelt the same and confirmed in 68:48:فَاصبِر لِحُكمِ رَبِّكَ وَلا تَكُن كَصاحِبِ الحوتِ إِذ نادىٰ وَهُوَ مَكظومٌ
GOD could have easily added 1 more N by saying "younes" here  but did not because the total n would have been 134.
Of course that is my deduction and makes perfect sense to me in light of the numerical composition of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 26, 2018, 08:12:01 AM
Salaam,



Correct # of words 142 / 19 = 7.47 not multiple!?

btw, all this is statistically meaningless i.e.
1) get an idea
2) peruse different combinations of "any" text
3) show only 1/19 hits and hide 18/19 failures

peace!


- Number 19 is not an idea or invented or a hit and hide trick, the number is mentioned in the Quran:

74:30    Over it are nineteen.

Verse 31 explains the purposes of  number 19:

74:31       And not We have made keepers (of) the Fire except Angels. And not We have made their number

 except (as):

a trial for those who disbelieve

that may be certain those who were given the Scripture

and may increase those who believe (in) faith,

and not may doubt those who were given the Scripture and the believers,

and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?"

 Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.


- And the count of  everything in numbers is also from the Quran:


72:28  So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2018, 09:56:21 AM
- Number 19 is not an idea or invented or a hit and hide trick, the number is mentioned in the Quran:

74:30    Over it are nineteen.

Peace, no # 19 is not mentioned; rather "a group" of nineteen.

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (# 9) 
18:25 تسعا nine of (# 9)
38:23 تسع nine (# 9)

27:48 تسعه nonet (i.e. "group" of nine)

74:29-30 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal علىها over her/it (feminine/hellfire NOT masculine/qur'an) تسعه nonet عشر ten ...
(i.e. "group" of nineteen malāikatun/controllers over hellfire!)

66:6 ... نارا fire of وقودها and fuel hers/its الناس the humankind والحجاره and the stone علىها over her/it ملىكه malāikatun/controllers ...

Quote
Verse 31 explains the purposes of  number 19:

Right, infatuation with numerology/counting, etc.

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه malāikatan/controllers وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan/infatuation/trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...

good logic -- waiting for you to share math tool?

peace, can please share interlock tool apply to 72:16 وان لو or والو ?


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 26, 2018, 10:15:42 AM
Peace Noon.
You and I have done that in many threads in the past.
It will be a waste of time to both of us.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 26, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
Salaam,






Right, infatuation with numerology/counting, etc.

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه malāikatan/controllers وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan/infatuation/trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...


Is your understandig of this part of verse 31 :

That the purpose of mentioning (a group of )19 is for disbelievers to count and search for multiples of 19 in the Quran ?



Explain your understanding of the rest of 74:31 ...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: The Sardar on August 26, 2018, 11:48:54 AM
Share math tool? First time i heard it. Interested too.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Novice on August 26, 2018, 11:53:11 AM
Share math tool? First time i heard it. Interested too.

I do not think math tool can solve the mystery of 72:16 وان لو or والو
Brother Noon has brought up an excellent example from Quran.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: The Sardar on August 26, 2018, 11:57:09 AM
This whole Code 19 is a mystery, i am not sure it being a fraud. Not agreeing with Rashad Khalifa though.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 26, 2018, 12:10:26 PM
Is your understandig of this part of verse 31 :

That the purpose of mentioning (a group of )19 is for disbelievers to count and search for multiples of 19 in the Quran ?

Explain your understanding of the rest of 74:31 ...

Yes, numerology simply read stop inquiring when purpose is clearly stated. Search "fitnah" by brother Ayman as well.

The god never says anything specific about "counting 19 in the great reading" in the same way that he never said anything specific about Bukhari. The god tells us in general that the counting of 19 is an attractive temptation for the unappreciative. So you see the unappreciative not only attracted to counting 19 in the great reading but also in all sorts of things such as calendar dates and magic hexagon, etc., etc. They are attracted to counting 19 everywhere. I bet that when they take bus #19 or flight #19 they get aroused.

Peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 26, 2018, 06:56:50 PM
apparently there is no such value of any number/numbers. in Quran

but there are always some amazing things what author always try to highlight it with letter  و

like
by winds.
by sun,moon stars
by winds
by fast gallopers / horses
by time
By the fig and the olive.And Mount Sinai. And this land of peace.


so many things to consider but why not any NUMBER 19 not even anywhere its mention " BY NUMEROLOGY "

logical God dont wana tell something in code words.



 
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 27, 2018, 12:13:16 AM
Peace All.
There is no doubt that GOD has "counted the numbers" in Qoran and issued a challenge to the generation that has the means(Technology/Science) to check it;
GOD is not asking anyone to be a mathematician or to receive salvation by mathematics, nor is GOD asking us to idolise numbers or ignore them completely. GOD is sending a clear message that Qoran is mathematically composed beyond a human knowledge and only GOD is capable of such a composition.
 A book that tells stories, gives instructions, commands, lessons,...Yet also numerically collected and arranged in letters, words sentences and chapters.
"...if only a miracle could be sent to himm..Wait ...the future belongs to GOD..." So the wait is over:

Example of a very minute FACT of the composition of Qoran among hundreds:
The frequency of occurrence of "Q" in Sura "Q"(No.50) is 57, 19x3
The frequency of "Q" in the only other Q-initialed sura (No.42) is also 57, 19x3
The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the only two "Q"-initialed suras is 114,=19x6, as we read in sura "Q", the "Q" indicates the Quran. 114 is the total number of suras in the Quran.
Like the letter "Q" in each sura (42&50), the word Quran is mentioned in the Quran 57 times in referral to this Quran(Not Qoran other than this!). 57=19x3 
Sura 42 has 53 verses and 42+53=95 , 19x5
Sura 50 has 45 verses and 50+45=95, 19x5
The number of "Q"s in all the verses numbered "19" throughout the Quran is 76, 19x4 .

Coincidence?? Or is this not a fact?...Among lots of other deliberate mathematical arrangements of Qoran..
One can argue that humans are taking this to the point of trials or not admitting their 19 failures...etc
But GOD has counted the numbers accurately, precisely and deliberately for us . Another sign/miracle among many other signs all around us.
It does not matter about our redemption,being good/doing good is more important, but it is there for all to see.
Also, with the aid of computers, some are trying to imitate 19 code to argue their part as humans always try to argue. Unfortunately coming with even a complete chapter that is mathematically composed for example like chapter 1,is impossible for them:

[Qoran 2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that God is Omnipotent?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 27, 2018, 01:04:15 AM
Salaam,





Right, infatuation with numerology/counting, etc.

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه malāikatan/controllers وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan/infatuation/trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...




Could you explain your understanding of the rest of 74:31 ...

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Layth on August 27, 2018, 01:37:41 AM
Salam,

Quote
I see what you are trying to get at. That the letter N is spelt "NUN".
NO ,not necessarily. I am saying in chapter 68,GOD in His composition of the text has spelt it "NUN", and explained why as far as my findings and checking goes..

No, He hasn't. You have tampered with the text and have made it spell this way (just to recover a missing "N" that you believe should exist - by force). The Quran doesn't spell out letters phonetically, and, as I mentioned, if you wanted to be consistent in this tampering, then you need to change the spelling of all the initials (which you won't because it will mess-up the counts).

Quote
See the examples and anomalies we are talking about here in this thread.
Like 21:87:وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why is the letter N spelt "NUN" here as well? What is the relationship between this and surah 68?

Because its part of a "word" and not a letter...Would you say that the word "AhQAF" in 46:21 means that all "Q" initials need to be spelt "QAF"...The logic of this forced spelling is not even an argument.

Quote
My view this is telling us that  "N" in chapter 68 is spelt the same and confirmed in 68:48:فَاصبِر لِحُكمِ رَبِّكَ وَلا تَكُن كَصاحِبِ الحوتِ إِذ نادىٰ وَهُوَ مَكظومٌ
GOD could have easily added 1 more N by saying "younes" here  but did not because the total n would have been 134.

Actually, if He had called him "Younus" in 68:48 then you would have been fine because it would have eliminated the need for the forced misspelling "NUN" and this strange and bizzare logic of why it was done (God intended to spell it that way!).

Regards,
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 27, 2018, 03:21:25 AM
Peace Layth.
I disagree with you. You are assuming what you said I did. I know for sure that is not the case. 
Your example is wrong . "AHQAF"  is a word  with meaning ,Dha NUN  is not a word with meaning it is two words ,the latter being the letter N. It is spelt in most Qorans NUN why?
Because GOD wanted to spell the two letters  of N (the only two  in all of Qoran) NUN for the purpose of "counting the numbers" .
Interlock of the whole Qoran also confirms this for me.
Actually if GOD called him Younes in 68:48,interlock would not work. The letter N would be in the wrong place with few less letters missing as "Sahibi Al Hut" is longer in letters.
This makes sense along with the connection of Younes in both verses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Makaveli on August 27, 2018, 04:28:42 AM
Quran is to be read phonetically given the fact that it lacked modern recitation diacritics, and strongly relied on phonetics and is highly descriptive as a language. It is also a way to create dualistic understanding of the text, one dark and profane and another occult and leading to the light. Alr-sl , is actually spelt Alra-Selam, given the fact that Alif-Lam-Ra is a separate formula in the Quran and Siin & Lam are pronounced 'Selam' meaning soundness or wholeness. Ra-selam is a phenomenon when someone recieves "peace" or is bestowed peace during his spiritual journey and by living intact with the universal law. It does not mean to send or the messenger. Messenger is another traditional deception, according to which there are two groups of people:

1. The Proles(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proles), leading miserable lives until the "messenger" comes and explains them how to go about their day-to-day activities, like using rocks for hygeine purposes and to obey 'God's laws' (meaning the religious authorities), as if they did not know it without the "revelation";

2. The Messengers - those who are directly commanded by God to give 'glad tidings' for the believes and "warnings" of eternal punishment of Hell for disbelievers.

Word 'send' also means to put in a certain condition hence while outdated but there used to be a saying (still is active in most languages) to "send a curse" or "send blessings" etc.

There are of course the prophets, written as al-nabiyan, who are per root definition "people with inner seed of understanding, not experienced with five senses", i.e. insightful folk.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on August 27, 2018, 06:25:54 AM
Peace All.
Qoran has been the centre stage of all sorts of "theories" about the meaning of certain words according to root letter.
One can understand why all the different interpretations and sects.
What is needed, for those that claim new meanings/insight, whoever they are, is to work on a project of translating the whole text.
Just working on different words is not going to give any  message.
Two questions arise:
1-Is the Qoran we have now useful/important/worthwhile to take seriously?
2-Can all of it be translated using a chosen/better" insight?
Then it becomes worthwhile discussing any new insight and its word meanings.

If on the other hand one would say the Qoran we have is not the original or has been tampered with...Then evidence or work on this finding needs to be provided
This thread is discussing the Qoran as we have it now after all.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Makaveli on August 27, 2018, 06:58:07 AM
A message delivered externally in an decrypted manner will be like lighting striking misbehaving slaves when they try to open a veil of shadows, i.e. trying to get insight while being covered with veil of ignorance. This will lead the folk to "disbelieve", because the slaves have to fear their Lord(s), otherwise the hidden knowledge will so overwhelm them, they will move to atheism, which itself is spiritual death. Secular religion is spiritual slumbering when religion is deprieved of its occult symbolism.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: imrankhawaja on August 28, 2018, 02:29:18 AM

hmm so God also count like humans  :wow

i was thinking he already knows everything.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 28, 2018, 07:31:52 AM
Salaam,



Salaam,



Is your understandig of this part of verse 31 :

That the purpose of mentioning (a group of )19 is for disbelievers to count and search for multiples of 19 in the Quran ?



Explain your understanding of the rest of 74:31 ...


Yes, numerology simply read stop inquiring when purpose is clearly stated. Search "fitnah" by brother Ayman as well.

Peace!



- Why would those who  reject/disbelieve, count and search for multiples  of 19 and a pattern in tha Quran,  in order to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book ?

- Consider also that "saqar" and its description and number 19 was a response to the accusation that the Quran is " magic and  words of a human". 74:24-25

------------



- Most of your post on other subjects  seems interesting and from a knowledgeable person , but i don't understand your harsh attitude against a possible numerical structure of the Quran.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 28, 2018, 10:10:38 AM
Salaam,


Peace, no # 19 is not mentioned; rather "a group" of nineteen.

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (# 9) 
18:25 تسعا nine of (# 9)
38:23 تسع nine (# 9)

27:48 تسعه nonet (i.e. "group" of nine)


In arabic:
Number nineteenرقم تسعة عشر

http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

seem as in:

Quran:
74:30   Over it (are) nineteen : عليها تسعه عشر




74:29-30 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal علىها over her/it (feminine/hellfire NOT masculine/qur'an) تسعه nonet عشر ten ...
(i.e. "group" of nineteen malāikatun/controllers over hellfire!)

66:6 ... نارا fire of وقودها and fuel hers/its الناس the humankind والحجاره and the stone علىها over her/it ملىكه malāikatun/controllers ...


scorching:

74:29    لواحه للبشر
74:29    lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:29  " lawwāḥatun" to mortal man.


Other meanings beside  "scorching" for " lawwāḥatun" :

manifest, appeared, shone forth, became visible.




 علىها over her/it (feminine/hellfire NOT masculine/qur'an)


" It " refers to  " Saqar"

74:26  I will cast him in  "Saqar".
74:27  And what could make thee conceive what  "Saqar" is?
74:28  It does not spare nor leave.


74:29  Manifest/making visible to mortal man.
74:30  Over  it (are)nineteen.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on August 29, 2018, 02:26:00 AM
Salaam,


Peace All.
There is no doubt that GOD has "counted the numbers" in Qoran and issued a challenge to the generation that has the means(Technology/Science) to check it;
GOD is not asking anyone to be a mathematician or to receive salvation by mathematics, nor is GOD asking us to idolise numbers or ignore them completely. GOD is sending a clear message that Qoran is mathematically composed beyond a human knowledge and only GOD is capable of such a composition.
 A book that tells stories, gives instructions, commands, lessons,...Yet also numerically collected and arranged in letters, words sentences and chapters.
"...if only a miracle could be sent to himm..Wait ...the future belongs to GOD..." So the wait is over:

Example of a very minute FACT of the composition of Qoran among hundreds:
The frequency of occurrence of "Q" in Sura "Q"(No.50) is 57, 19x3
The frequency of "Q" in the only other Q-initialed sura (No.42) is also 57, 19x3
The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the only two "Q"-initialed suras is 114,=19x6, as we read in sura "Q", the "Q" indicates the Quran. 114 is the total number of suras in the Quran.
Like the letter "Q" in each sura (42&50), the word Quran is mentioned in the Quran 57 times in referral to this Quran(Not Qoran other than this!). 57=19x3
Sura 42 has 53 verses and 42+53=95 , 19x5
Sura 50 has 45 verses and 50+45=95, 19x5
The number of "Q"s in all the verses numbered "19" throughout the Quran is 76, 19x4 .

Coincidence?? Or is this not a fact?...Among lots of other deliberate mathematical arrangements of Qoran..
One can argue that humans are taking this to the point of trials or not admitting their 19 failures...etc
But GOD has counted the numbers accurately, precisely and deliberately for us . Another sign/miracle among many other signs all around us.
It does not matter about our redemption,being good/doing good is more important, but it is there for all to see.
Also, with the aid of computers, some are trying to imitate 19 code to argue their part as humans always try to argue. Unfortunately coming with even a complete chapter that is mathematically composed for example like chapter 1,is impossible for them:

[Qoran 2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that God is Omnipotent?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.


Another interesting observation in chapter 50  Qaf:

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط "    is   mentioned 7 times in the Quran

11:70  11:74  11:89    22:43   26:160   38:13   54:33


And also 5 times as :  " his people  qawmihi   قومه  " when"  Lot   لوط  " addresses " his people " or when they address Lot.

  7:80    21:74    27:54   27:56     29:28


And one time as :   " Ikhwanu Lot     brethren of Lot    اخون لوط  "    in chapter 50 Qaf

The term "brethren  (ikhwanu ) " is used here metonymically.  ( Muhammad Asad )

In the context it seems referring  to

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط " :


50:12   Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions (of) and Thamud,
50:13    And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14    And (the) companions (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.




If " qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط "   was mentioned in 50:13 ,  then there would be 58 lettes Qaf.



Some have opposed to this and say that there are other references to the people of Lot

as : " ala Lot      Famly of Lot        ال لوط "

15:59   15:61   27:56   54:34

This is not correct:

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط "  is refered  to in a negative way,  they were destroyed.

 " ala Lot      Famly of Lot        ال لوط "  is refered  to in a positive way , they were saved  (exept his wive 15:60 ) .


coclusion:

It seems that: 

"Ikhwanu Lot   brethren of Lot    اخون لوطin 50:13 was " chosen" to result in 57 occurrences of the  letter Qaf ق



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on August 30, 2018, 04:31:11 PM
- Most of your post on other subjects  seems interesting and from a knowledgeable person , but i don't understand your harsh attitude against a possible numerical structure of the Quran.

Peace, nothing about possibility of numerical structure (my profession is high tech science, physics, computing, and math) harshness toward ignorant include/exclude statically insignificant evidence.


http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

seem as in:

Quran:
74:30   Over it (are) nineteen : عليها تسعه عشر

No earliest manuscripts scribes clearly differentiated between "a number" vs "a group".

again see usage in 17:101, 27:12, 38:23 تسع nine (no  "ة" i.e. pertains to number # 9) 

Not as in link with "ة" which in qur'an means "group of nine" again see 27:48 تسعه nonet

" It " refers to  " Saqar"

right, tell "it" to the numerologists!

It seems that: 

"Ikhwanu Lot   brethren of Lot    اخون لوطin 50:13 was " chosen" to result in 57 occurrences of the  letter Qaf ق

other chapters?

ch   #q
14   57
32   38
42   57
47   38
50   57

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 01, 2018, 01:52:16 AM
Salaam,



Peace, nothing about possibility of numerical structure (my profession is high tech science, physics, computing, and math) harshness toward ignorant include/exclude statically insignificant evidence.



25:63 And the servants of the  Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say / reply / peace / peacefully / with words of peace.
( i.e not harsh )

- What is your / a statistically meaningful standard agreed on?





No earliest manuscripts scribes clearly differentiated between "a number" vs "a group".

again see usage in 17:101, 27:12, 38:23 تسع nine (no  "ة" i.e. pertains to number # 9) 

Not as in link with "ة" which in qur'an means "group of nine" again see 27:48 تسعه nonet


How do you spell " number 19"  in Arabic ?




right, tell "it" to the numerologists!


No  numerology in what i posted, either coincidence or  pattern.

----

What is your understanding on this:

74:31

What will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers ?



other chapters?

ch   #q
14   57
32   38
42   57
47   38
50   57

Chapter 42 and chapter 50  are not arbitrarily chosen, they share the initial letter Qaf , and occurs  57 + 57 = 114  same as the number of chapters in the Quran.
Not the case for chapter 14 , 32 and 47





50:12   Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions (of)and Thamud,
50:13    And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14    And (the) companions (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.




Sorry for this error in the translation, should be :

50:12 Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions /dwellers (of) Al-Raas and Thamud,
50:13 And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14 And (the) companions/dwellers (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 01, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
- What is your / a statistically meaningful standard agreed on?

Peace, it needs to be a consistent repeatable pattern NOT hiding ~95% (18/19) misses only showing ~5% (1/19) hits and using deceptive tricks by excluding/including, etc.

Likewise, what is yours; good logic (refuses to share interlock ☹) et al are claiming code?

How do you spell " number 19"  in Arabic ?

How many examples suffice?
Again, the scribes consistently wrote with trailing "ه" i.e. group; without "ه" number.

6:160/89:2 عشر ten (10)
2:196/5:89 عشره tentet (group of ten)

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (9)
27:48 تسعه nonet (group of nine)
74:30 تسعه nonet عشر ten (i.e. group of nineteen)

2:29/2:261/12:43-48 سبع seven (7)
15:44/18:22 سبعه septet (group of seven)

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of four) اشهر ashhurin ...

4:3/35:1 وربعand four (4)
24:8 اربعfour (i.e. 4 times)
2:226/2:234/2:260/4:15/9:2/9:36 اربعه quartet (group of four)
24:4/24:13 باربعه with quartet (i.e. group of four witnesses)

4:3 وثلث and three (3)
2:196/2:228/3:41/4:171 ثلثه trio (group of three)


No  numerology in what i posted, either coincidence or  pattern.

There is no consistent repeatable pattern in any of your posts.

Likewise, was referring to 19 hunters who say ?it? refers to Qur?an.

What is your understanding on this:

74:31

What is your understanding?

74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen)
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial/infatuation للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing
 ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
 ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of
 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your الا except هو he
 وما and not هى it is الا except ذكرى reminder للبشر to the mortal

Chapter 42 and chapter 50  are not arbitrarily chosen, they share the initial letter Qaf , and occurs  57 + 57 = 114  same as the number of chapters in the Quran.
Not the case for chapter 14 , 32 and 47

What is total ق in Quran ? not multiple? Where is consistent repeatable pattern?

How many ط ch 20? 28 not multiple?

How many ن ch 68? 132 not multiple?

50:12 Denied before them ...

Denied what? You saying people who don't believe 19 code/whatever are deniers?

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 01, 2018, 11:16:37 AM
Peace Noon.
Common brother. I said Interlock has been discussed with you multiple times here with me, brother Bahman and others. You do not need me to provide anything new that you do not know?
You know you only want to imitate with your numerology . It does not benefit either of us.

So you agree that 5%  at least is not numerology but patterns?

I do not care a jot about arguments or numerology or ...I see facts in front of me about the composition of Qoran. If others do not see it, it is fine by me.
I just wish you stop this 1/19 nonsense. I am also a mathematician and if there are only two facts the probability will be 1/19 x 1/19 = 1/361. 1 fact= 1/19, two facts= 1/19 x 1/19
Since there are hundreds,, or even in your 5% admission the probability will be approx. zero ie 1/19 x 1/19 x 1/19...etc.

Also the brother asked how do you spell 19 in Arabic(Tisata Ashar) .why the need for many examples in your post?

Like many other people who conversed with you here ,I do not understand your  stand against the clear numerical composition of Qoran despite many obvious facts?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 01, 2018, 08:59:42 PM
I said Interlock has been discussed with you multiple times here with me, brother Bahman and others. You do not need me to provide anything new that you do not know?

Peace good logic ? you, Bahman, et al only provided statistically meaningless multiples.

So you agree that 5%  at least is not numerology but patterns?

5% (1/19 all numbers are multiple) expected perusing most anything e.g. two verses you deny...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/129?handschrift=163

see link to old manuscripts: https://postimg.cc/image/81jjnr2xj/

9:128 لقد verily جاكم came you رسول messenger من from انفسكم souls yours عزىز mighty علىه on him ما what عنتم suffer you حرىص concerned علىكم over you بالمومنىن with the believers روف kind رحىم merciful
9:129 فان so if تولوا turn they of فقل so say حسبى suffices me الله the god لا not اله deity الا except هو he علىه on him توكلت trust I وهو and he رب lord العرش the throne العظىم the major

19th word is Allah!

9 + 128 + 129 = 266 = 14 x 19!

9:129 # of letters start verse to including Allah = 19!

Coincidence? No, since that is how it is written.
Pattern? No, it is not consistent nor repeatable.

Also the brother asked how do you spell 19 in Arabic(Tisata Ashar) .why the need for many examples in your post?

It was to show difference how to spell/refer to "a group" vs "a number" e.g.

18:22 سىقولون shall saying ثلثه trio (i.e. group of three) ربعهم fourth theirs كلبهم dog theirs ...

18:25 ولبثوا and stay they of فى in كهفهم cave theirs ثلث three (i.e. the number 3) ماىه hundred ...



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 01, 2018, 11:51:22 PM
Peace Noon.
You know very well as a Mathematician that 1/19 is not 1 single fact for all multiples. But you deny?
You cannot just say if all  are multiples of 19 the probability is 1/19. It is false. It is  the "AND" rule of probability! (1/19 x 1/19 x...etc).

We also discussed your old manuscripts, similar to all the other mushafs that exist ,they contain errors. Or are they the original copy?

So you do not like omitting the two verses? And who is forcing you? Or because of that, you deny any numerical composition?

Your choice brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 02, 2018, 12:39:52 AM
Salaam,


Peace, it needs to be a consistent repeatable pattern NOT hiding ~95% (18/19) misses only showing ~5% (1/19) hits and using deceptive tricks by excluding/including, etc.

Likewise, what is yours; good logic (refuses to share interlock ☹) et al are claiming code?

What would they gain by hiding or deceiving people?

I think that those who search for a pattern in the Quran have good intentions, even if there are some errors and exaggerations and coincidences in their results.

I do not agree with all what they claim, but there are some interesting points that are significant and could not be the result of coincidences.





There is no consistent repeatable pattern in any of your posts.

Likewise, was referring to 19 hunters who say “it” refers to Qur’an.


I didn't claim a repeatable pattern, My posts are about interesting numerical observations in the Quran that could not be the result of a coincidence.

See examples in this topic:

- link between chapter 16 and the number of chromosomes of honey bees..
- Moses and the 9 signs.
- The particular spelling of the word nunjy and Da Nun
- Similarity between Adam and Jesus.
- Twelve months in the book of Allah

- Allah loves... and opposite ... Allah does not love...
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

and
-------
9 and 19
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0
-------
Chapter Al-Rahman : 31 and 13
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610098.0
-------
The first verse (basmalah) 19 _ 9 and 10
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610122.0
-------
Bring 10 surahs like it
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610097.0
-------
Symmetry in not mentioning the word Noah in 2 ? 43 chapters.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610101.0
-------
7 heavens (al) samawaat
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610116.0
-------
The initial letters and number 13
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610111.0
--------
Chapter 72 Al-Jinn a reference to 114 chapters ? 
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610107.0
---------
365 days or 475 days ?
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610104.0
--------
Symmetry and number 7
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610100.0

The Quran refers to the count of everything in numbers:

72:28  So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.






What is your understanding?

74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen)
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial/infatuation للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing
 ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
 ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of
 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your الا except هو he
 وما and not هى it is الا except ذكرى reminder للبشر to the mortal

My question was not a translation of 74:31.
My question was  your understanding of:

What will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.




How many examples suffice?
Again, the scribes consistently wrote with trailing "ه" i.e. group; without "ه" number.

6:160/89:2 عشر ten (10)
2:196/5:89 عشره tentet (group of ten)

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (9)
27:48 تسعه nonet (group of nine)
74:30 تسعه nonet عشر ten (i.e. group of nineteen)

2:29/2:261/12:43-48 سبع seven (7)
15:44/18:22 سبعه septet (group of seven)

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of four) اشهر ashhurin ...

4:3/35:1 وربعand four (4)
24:8 اربعfour (i.e. 4 times)
2:226/2:234/2:260/4:15/9:2/9:36 اربعه quartet (group of four)
24:4/24:13 باربعه with quartet (i.e. group of four witnesses)

4:3 وثلث and three (3)
2:196/2:228/3:41/4:171 ثلثه trio (group of three)



Thanks for sharing your observations, my question was:

How do you spell " number 19 "  in Arabic ?





What is total ق in Quran – not multiple? Where is consistent repeatable pattern?

How many ط ch 20? 28 not multiple?

How many ن ch 68? 132 not multiple?



I know that all initial letters are not a multiple of 19 and I did not claim that.

See this:

Thanks for your reply.
In chapter 68 i count 132 letters Nun(N) ن with the basmalah  , or 131 without the basmalah.

And this:

- There could be another explanation for  chapter 68 having 132 letters Nun(N)  ن  with the basmalah,  or 131 without the basmalah.









Denied what? You saying people who don't believe 19 code/whatever are deniers?

Be honest and sincere when you quote;I was referring to an error in my previous post, where i forgot the name "Al-Raas " in 50:12



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 02, 2018, 10:26:51 PM
So you do not like omitting the two verses? And who is forcing you? Or because of that, you deny any numerical composition?

Not about what like/dislike, the two verses are clearly there in oldest manuscripts, etc. and haven't seen any numerical composition; what's presented is infatuation with numerology no consistent pattern whatsoever.

I do not agree with all what they claim...

good!

I didn't claim a repeatable pattern ...

good! there is none presented thus far.

My question was not a translation of 74:31.
My question was  your understanding of:

What will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

74:31
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing

it's clear what convinces them/everyone who believes is the book!

Thanks for sharing your observations, my question was:

How do you spell " number 19 "  in Arabic ?

تِسْعَ عَشْرَةَ (nineteen feminine entities)

تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ (nineteen masculine entities)

74:30 علىها over her/it (feminine) تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen/masculine i.e. controllers)

Qur'an Arabic if referring to nineteen in general/gender-less drop " ةَ " as in example with nine تِسْعَ

17:101 ولقد and surely اتىنا gave we of موسى moses تسع nine (the number 9) اىت signs بىنت clear ?

27:48 وكان and be فى in المدىنه the city تسعه nonet (group of nine/masculine) رهط entourage ?

Again, see examples provided... Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

You say تِسْعَةُ رِجَالٍ [Nine men], and تِسْعٌ نِسْوَةٍ [Nine women]. (K.) When it means the things numbered, not the amount of the number, تسعة is imperf. decl., being regarded as a proper name: thus you say, تِسْعَةُ أَكْثَرُ مِنْ ثَمَانِيَةَ [Nine things are more than eight things]. (TA.) It is said in the Kur [xvii. 103], وَ لَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى تِسْعَ آيَاتٍ بَيِّنَاتٍ [And we formerly gave unto Moses nine evident signs

I know that all initial letters are not a multiple of 19 and I did not claim that.

good!

peace
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 03, 2018, 12:09:27 AM
Peace Noon.
Infatuation with numbers?
All those facts, that you know for sure are there,  are coincidence?
Your motif is strange!
GOD said the Initials are proof ,why else have they been put there?
 Surah 10:  (ALR these Initial are the/Ayat/ proof! of Qoran )الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
 Surah 11: (This Qoran/book has been perfected. Initials(ALR) are proof of its authorship by GOD!)الر كِتٰبٌ أُحكِمَت ءايٰتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَت مِن لَدُن
حَكيمٍ خَبيرٍ
Surah 12:  (Yes indeed, these ALR are the Ayat/ proof of Qoran)الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ المُبينِ
Surah 13:المر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ وَالَّذى أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ الحَقُّ وَلٰكِنَّ أَكثَرَ النّاسِ لا يُؤمِنونَ (These ALMR initials are the Ayat/proof of the book, it is sent by Rabbika!)
Surah 15:الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ وَقُرءانٍ مُبينٍ (ALR initials are ayat/proof of the book ,this Qoran Mubeen!)
Surah 26:تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ المُبينِ   طسم  (TSM,these are the ayat/proof of the book Mubeen!)
Surah 27:طس تِلكَ ءايٰتُ القُرءانِ وَكِتابٍ مُبينٍ...etc
Do I need to carry on?
Of course you will be coming back to argue about consistency or translation or..., like -Tilka is not for the initials, it is not put after every initialled surah-...etc Or argue about Ayat does not mean proof there ... But whatever you bring GOD has the ultimate argument to beat all arguments. His book is perfect.
Like I said ,you do not have to believe in what you call numerology ,infatuation with numbers.
I am convinced. That remains the difference between us for now.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 03, 2018, 10:03:13 AM
Salaam,


Salaam,


Is your understandig of this part of verse 31 :

That the purpose of mentioning (a group of )19 is for disbelievers to count and search for multiples of 19 in the Quran ?





Yes, numerology simply read stop inquiring when purpose is clearly stated. Search "fitnah" by brother Ayman as well.

Peace!


- Why would those who reject/disbelieve, count and search for multiples of 19 and a pattern in tha Quran,  in order to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book ?


- Does that make sense?


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 09, 2018, 09:58:34 AM
Salaam,



74:31
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing

it's clear what convinces them/everyone who believes is the book!




There is no" book" mentioned in this verse that :

will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

It is the same (AAiddatahum  ( their number )    عِدَّتَهُمْ

that causes: 

a trial / fitna for those who disbelieve

and

will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture

and increase the faith of those who believe

and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?"

Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.




تِسْعَ عَشْرَةَ (nineteen feminine entities)

تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ (nineteen masculine entities)

74:30 علىها over her/it (feminine) تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen/masculine i.e. controllers)

Qur'an Arabic if referring to nineteen in general/gender-less drop " ةَ " as in example with nine تِسْعَ

17:101 ولقد and surely اتىنا gave we of موسى moses تسع nine (the number 9) اىت signs بىنت clear ?

27:48 وكان and be فى in المدىنه the city تسعه nonet (group of nine/masculine) رهط entourage ?

Again, see examples provided... Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

You say تِسْعَةُ رِجَالٍ [Nine men], and تِسْعٌ نِسْوَةٍ [Nine women]. (K.) When it means the things numbered, not the amount of the number, تسعة is imperf. decl., being regarded as a proper name: thus you say, تِسْعَةُ أَكْثَرُ مِنْ ثَمَانِيَةَ [Nine things are more than eight things]. (TA.) It is said in the Kur [xvii. 103], وَ لَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى تِسْعَ آيَاتٍ بَيِّنَاتٍ [And we formerly gave unto Moses nine evident signs


Thanks for your explanation

In Arabic:
Number nineteenرقم تسعة عشر

http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

seem as in:

Quran:
74:30   Over it (are) nineteen : عليها تسعه عشر


AAiddatahum ( their number )    عِدَّتَهُمْ 

in 74:30 refers to 19

whatever it is : quantity, number, total,  sum,  group ....


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 13, 2018, 06:13:08 PM
Thanks for your explanation

In Arabic:
Number nineteenرقم تسعة عشر

http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

peace, above is not qur'an leads to impreciseness.

whatever it is : quantity, number, total,  sum,  group ....

"her/it" precisely refers to abyss which preside over nineteen entities i.e. "group" of controllers (masculine plural).
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 14, 2018, 03:02:28 AM
Peace Noon.
"Her/it" precisely refers to revelation "Ayat". Over the revelation of GOD sits as authentication/proof/ 19... is 19.
As it happens the scripture of Moses had the same composition. This is the difference between GOD s words and ours. The mathematical composition.
GO on brother noon ,tell me your "precise" (Abyss) is more precise than my "precise"(Ayat)?
Also tell me "Thiaabaka Fatahir" means "wash your clothes" (74:4)? Or what do you make of 74:1-5?
The whole surah is telling you "what is the secret?" 
The secret has come out and continues to grow. We have the means to check the Mathematical structure of GOD s words.
GOD  design of His scripture is mathematically locked.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 14, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
Salaam,

peace, above is not qur'an leads to impreciseness.

"her/it" precisely refers to abyss which preside over nineteen entities i.e. "group" of controllers (masculine plural).

Even if it is a  group of nineteen  ( controllers / Malaika  ) upon it, her /  over  it, her / garding it, her  " ABYSS  / SAQAR " .

How does knowing, that the number of this group is nineteen i.e. (AAiddatahum   their number     عِدَّتَهُمْ )

 
causes

a trial / fitna for those who disbelieve

and

will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture

and increase the faith of those who believe

and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?"

Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.



- It is also very important to consider that "SAQAR" and its description and number (  group of ) 19 is God's  response to the claim that the Quran is " magic and  words of a human". 74:24-25

- It seems that "SAQAR" and its description and number (  group of ) 19  will prouve that this claim is false.

- Otherwise what would be the purpose of mentioning number (  group of ) 19  after this claim about the Quran.

- If the Quran is a " numerically composed book "  based on number 19,  then that is a clear response  / argument / proof for its divine origin and preservation, against this  claim :  " magic and  words of a human".


That is my understanding.



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 14, 2018, 10:41:22 AM
Peace ibn_a .
Brother Noon wants it both ways:

1- That over her/ it is nineteen is the number of Malika
2- That is a "fitna" to those who believe "number 19 " is the mathematical composition.

Why only those who believe "number 19"? Why not all other groups that are hostile to Qoran?
 And why even acknowledge those who believe "number 19"?
Is the reason that some keep insisting is because they see it as a threat ? I wonder why?
 Is GOD not powerful enough to negate falsehood about His scripture?

If they believe what GOD is saying(That He preserves the book) They should not worry!!!

I do not worry about them not believing "number 19",because I know that GOD protects more than any of us can. The Truth is more powerful than falsehood.
If  they think"number 19" is a falsehood it will be shown up eventually. No need to worry.
The problem I see is they are not able to show this so far.
So let us wait and see?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 14, 2018, 01:34:28 PM
peace

and

will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture

there is no "and will convince" in verse!

لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book

Quote
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

there is no "and remove all traces of doubt" in verse!

ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book

Quote
and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?"

more precisely what numerologists who reject verses keep inquiring about!

ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?

So let us wait and see?

wait and see what non-existent interlock/code you keep running away avoid answering?
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 12:21:18 AM
Peace Noon.
Look brother, I answered this question by asking you to visit the threads that you took part in about interlock and code 19 with brother Bahman.
they are still existing here. find them and recap.

Why waste time since it has already been discussed with you?

Every angle of interlock has been explained by brother Bahman to you and those that took part in these threads.
 
I am here ,will not run away from you brother. I like our conversations.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 15, 2018, 01:55:53 AM
Every angle of interlock has been explained by brother Bahman

peace, he was clueless freaked out at every multiple called it interlock.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 08:30:14 AM
Peace Noon.
I have done my study separately abnd my own checking and  I have had a look at Abdullah Arik s "beyond probability".
I have spent years looking at all the so called multiples and number patterns and interlock.
Small example here:
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/beyond_probability_(P1317).html

 I am saying I have no doubt Qoran is mathematically structured .Deliberate and with perfection by The Author of Qoran

Are you saying you proved every fact  wrong?
Are you saying there is no 19 pattern at all?
 
Or are you saying the ones that exist are just 1/19 chance and Coincidence?
Or are you saying because you can imitate some sentences, and I have seen many of your so called imitations, it is no big deal?
I am simply saying, I really do not understand you brother?

Remember in the late 70s when the whole Islamic world was championing this so called Miracle? You know what happened when they discovered that their hadiths are idol worship? They sacked the idea !!
Why are you sacking the idea? Because of 128 and 129  verses ? Because of  new messenger claim? Because you do not want to really study this pattern in case you go back on your stand? Or simply because you cannot find any number structure in the book?
I am really curious to find out brother, because I read your posts and I honestly think that you do not even acknowledge that some facts exist.
But of course you have the choice brother to do things your way.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on September 15, 2018, 09:55:03 AM
Salaam,

Peace ibn_a .
Brother Noon wants it both ways:

1- That over her/ it is nineteen is the number of Malika
2- That is a "fitna" to those who believe "number 19 " is the mathematical composition.

Why only those who believe "number 19"? Why not all other groups that are hostile to Qoran?
 And why even acknowledge those who believe "number 19"?
Is the reason that some keep insisting is because they see it as a threat ? I wonder why?
 Is GOD not powerful enough to negate falsehood about His scripture?

If they believe what GOD is saying(That He preserves the book) They should not worry!!!

I do not worry about them not believing "number 19",because I know that GOD protects more than any of us can. The Truth is more powerful than falsehood.
If  they think"number 19" is a falsehood it will be shown up eventually. No need to worry.
The problem I see is they are not able to show this so far.
So let us wait and see?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I don't understand why those who oppose a possible numerical structure of the Quran based on number 19 , don't search for a logical explanation on why God revealed this number.(i.e. after the claim that the Quran is " magic and  words of a human". 74:24-25 )

Saying that God revealed number ( a group of ) 19 in order for those who reject / disbelieve to count and search for multiples of 19 and a pattern in the Quran,  in order to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book seems not to be a logical explanation.




peace

there is no "and will convince" in verse!

لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book

there is no "and remove all traces of doubt" in verse!

ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book

more precisely what numerologists who reject verses keep inquiring about!

ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?

wait and see what non-existent interlock/code you keep running away avoid answering?

I don't reject verses.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 15, 2018, 10:11:55 AM
I have done my study separately abnd my own checking and  I have had a look at Abdullah Arik s "beyond probability".
I have spent years looking at all the so called multiples and number patterns and interlock.
Small example here:
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/beyond_probability_(P1317).html

peace, above is mindless rant flipping stuff around posting 5% hits hiding 95% misses.

Quote
Are you saying you proved every fact  wrong?
Are you saying there is no 19 pattern at all?
 
Or are you saying the ones that exist are just 1/19 chance and Coincidence?

yes no pattern nor coincidence flipping most any text gets a hit 5% of the time.

Quote
Remember in the late 70s when the whole Islamic world was championing this so called Miracle?

yes they were and still are dumb and ignorant!

Quote
Why are you sacking the idea? Because of 128 and 129  verses ? Because of  new messenger claim? ... Or simply because you cannot find any number structure in the book?

yes it's dumb, ignorant, nowhere stated in the book and believers from time of revelation didn't require.

74:31 ...
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing

likewise ...
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/36?handschrift=107

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/36?handschrift=163
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 11:11:39 AM
Peace Noon.
Sorry brother I am surprised at your learning.
There must be a lot of stuff in Qoran we do not require then? Or do you understand everything?
For example:
يَومَ نَطوِى السَّماءَ كَطَىِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلكُتُبِ كَما بَدَأنا أَوَّلَ خَلقٍ نُعيدُهُ وَعدًا عَلَينا إِنّا كُنّا فٰعِلينَ
If the future generation understand this verse better than us, would we say believers of our time did not require it?

Well brother, we will have to stay with our differences for now.
Nevertheless I thank you for your views and appreciate your respectful way of holding these difficult conversations.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Makaveli on September 24, 2018, 02:56:51 PM
Word الله itself has numerological structure like many other scriptural words of abjad tradition. Aleph Lamed Lamed heh = 66 = 6+6 = 12 / 66x19 = 1254 = 12 / also 66x7 = 462 = 12 / 12+7 = 19 (12 tribes + 7 heavens)

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم (Basmala) - 21 (7+8+6) = 2+1= 3, ILH - 36 = 9 / adam = 45 = 9 / 9+3=12 /// 45x19 = 855 = 18 / 36x19 = 684 = 18 / 18+3 = 21 /// Adam (45) + Basmala (21) = ALLH (66).

And many other examples.

But that's not important... the numerologists will never win a debate against the blind sceptics as long as they ride the 70's bandwagong yet do not understand the meaning behind these numbers, like Yuksel. Simply counting patterns does not give you anything. It's worthless in itself. To grasp the meaning - that's what is useful.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on October 16, 2018, 12:11:35 AM
Salaam,


Symmetry: verses in the first half of the Qur'an in comparison to chapters in the last half of the Qur'an.

In  the Qur'an there are 60 chapters with an even verse number.

- 27 chapters in the first half of the Qur'an
- 33 chapters in the last half of the Qur'an

A - Sum of the 33 chapter numbers with even verses in the last half = 2690

B - Sum of the 27 even total verses in the first half = 2690

                     A               B   
-------------------------------------------
chapter        chapter    chapter   verses    verses
 name          number     number              first half   
                          last half      
         
-------------------------------------------

Al-Fatihah        1        ...       7          ...     
Al-Baqarah        2        ...       286        286     
Aali Imran        3        ...       200        200     
An-Nisa’          4        ...       176        176     
Al-Ma’idah        5        ...       120        120     
Al-An’am          6        ...       165        ...
Al-A’raf          7        ...       206        206     
Al-Anfal          8        ...       75         ...     
At-Taubah         9        ...       129        ...     
Yunus             10       ...       109        ...     
Hud               11       ...       123        ...     
Yusuf             12       ...       111        ...     
Ar-Ra’d           13       ...       43         ...     
Ibrahim           14       ...       52         52     
Al-Hijr           15       ...       99         ...     
An-Nahl           16       ...       128        128     
Al-Isra’          17       ...       111        ...     
Al-Kahf           18       ...       110        110     
Maryam            19       ...       98         98     
Ta-Ha             20       ...       135        ...     
Al-Anbiya’        21       ...       112        112     
Al-Haj            22       ...       78         78     
Al-Mu’minun       23       ...       118        118     
An-Nur            24       ...       64         64     
Al-Furqan         25       ...       77         ...     
Ash-Shu’ara’      26       ...       227        ...     
An-Naml           27       ...       93         ...     
Al-Qasas          28       ...       88         88     
Al-Ankabut        29       ...       69         ...     
Ar-Rum            30       ...       60         60     
Luqman            31       ...       34         34     
As-Sajdah         32       ...       30         30     
Al-Ahzab          33       ...       73         ...     
Saba’             34       ...       54         54     
Al-Fatir          35       ...       45         ...     
Ya-Sin            36       ...       83         ...       
As-Saffah         37       ...       182        182     
Sad               38       ...       88         88     
Az-Zumar          39       ...       75         ...     
Ghafar            40       ...       85         ...     
Fusilat           41       ...       54         54     
Ash-Shura         42       ...       53         ...     
Az-Zukhruf        43       ...       89         ...     
Ad-Dukhan         44       ...       59         ...     
Al-Jathiyah       45       ...       37         ...     
Al-Ahqaf          46       ...       35         ...     
Muhammad          47       ...       38         38     
Al-Fat’h          48       ...       29         ...     
Al-Hujurat        49       ...       18         18     
Qaf               50       ...       45         ...     
Adz-Dzariyah      51       ...       60         60     
At-Tur            52       ...       49         ...     
An-Najm           53       ...       62         62     
Al-Qamar          54       ...       55         ...     
Ar-Rahman         55       ...       78         78     
Al-Waqi’ah        56       ...       96         96     
Al-Hadid          57       ...       29         ...       
------------------------------------------------------   
Al-Mujadilah      58       58        22         ...     
Al-Hashr          59       59        24         ...     
Al-Mumtahanah     60       ...       13         ...     
As-Saf            61       61        14         ...     
Al-Jum’ah         62       ...       11         ...     
Al-Munafiqun      63       ...       11         ...     
At-Taghabun       64       64        18         ...     
At-Talaq          65       65        12         ...     
At-Tahrim         66       66        12         ...     
Al-Mulk           67       67        30         ...     
Al-Qalam          68       68        52         ...     
Al-Haqqah         69       69        52         ...     
Al-Ma’arij        70       70        44         ...     
Nuh               71       71        28         ...     
Al-Jinn           72       72        28         ...     
Al-Muzammil       73       73        20         ...     
Al-Mudaththir     74       74        56         ...     
Al-Qiyamah        75       75        40         ...     
Al-Insan          76       ...       31         ...     
Al-Mursalat       77       77        50         ...     
An-Naba’          78       78        40         ...     
An-Nazi’at        79       79        46         ...     
‘Abasa            80       80        42         ...     
At-Takwir         81       ...       29         ...     
Al-Infitar        82       ...       19         ...     
Al-Mutaffifin     83       83        36         ...     
Al-Inshiqaq       84       ...       25         ...     
Al-Buruj          85       85        22         ...     
At-Tariq          86       ...       17         ...     
Al-A’la           87       ...       19         ...     
Al-Ghashiyah      88       88        26         ...     
Al-Fajr           89       89        30         ...     
Al-Balad          90       90        20         ...     
Ash-Shams         91       ...       15         ...     
Al-Layl           92       ...       21         ...     
Adh-Dhuha         93       ...       11         ...     
Al-Inshirah       94       94        8          ...     
At-Tin            95       95        8          ...     
Al-‘Alaq          96       ...       19         ...     
Al-Qadar          97       ...       5          ...     
Al-Bayinah        98       98        8          ...     
Az-Zalzalah       99       99        8          ...     
Al-‘Adiyah        100      ...       11         ...     
Al-Qari’ah        101      ...       11         ...     
At-Takathur       102      102       8          ...     
Al-‘Asr           103      ...       3          ...     
Al-Humazah        104      ...       9          ...     
Al-Fil            105      ...       5          ...     
Quraish           106      106       4          ...     
Al-Ma’un          107      ...       7          ...     
Al-Kauthar        108      ...       3          ...     
Al-Kafirun        109      109       6          ...     
An-Nasr           110      ...       3          ...     
Al-Masad          111      ...       5          ...     
Al-Ikhlas         112      112       4          ...     
Al-Falaq          113      ...       5          ...     
An-Nas            114      114       6          ...   
------------------------------------------------------
sum                       2690                 2690   



source (arabic) Abdullah Jalghoum :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir8603/#.W0DodcIyWCg

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: imrankhawaja on October 26, 2018, 08:15:13 AM
peace brother,

just wana tell you something, the data you are using got chapter nine verses included in it. so on one side of the story your calculations are balanced but coders dnt believe its the part of scripture. where you will go now ?

anyway by going this way one side comes up to 2688 lol

blessing of God on every individual who thinks critically.  ;)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on October 26, 2018, 10:26:58 AM
Peace Imran.
Please explain What you mean by 2888 as surah 9 has an odd number of verses, the post was. quote:

In  the Qur'an there are 60 chapters with an even verse number.

- 27 chapters in the first half of the Qur'an
- 33 chapters in the last half of the Qur'an

 B - Sum of the 27 even total verses in the first half = 2690

Whether surah 9 has 129 or 127 verses  both are odd number of verses. i.e not an even number of verses?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: hawk99 on October 26, 2018, 05:14:34 PM

Peace,

Math can be applied to everything physical that God created, therefore we who conclude that the Quran is
from God can also conclude that yes the Quran is mathematically composed as well.  Of course those who conclude
that math is a function of the human brain and does not really exist have their point of view.

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSt5jxSG1cLPUNOOYYCeqWMn44MqAKHRXYnJbpR4teJ_AGX2zMvww) (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZ4VWux7Q_3nfqRBTzV2VEiT3e_EKshc1oqLCbic54ym_7MECD)  (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwNVR88VZG0CyXMqQqTKT6u6hCrF73OMkoeUC4f1MktCaeg94gug)  (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSM7ZB6ylyks-VngQd9vMJbJGnBIPM_Kufu4KQuvPHXkMy6ZjDo1Q)

Math is all around us.

God bless

   :peace:
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 28, 2018, 03:20:22 AM
Symmetry: verses in the first half of the Qur'an in comparison to chapters in the last half of the Qur'an.

Peace -- no "symmetry" only sorted showed what equates concealed what does not.

ch ....  even  ch ...  odd ...  ch ..  even ..  ch ...  odd
58 ....  22 ...  1 .....  7 .......  2 ....  286 ....  60 ...  13
59 ....  24 ...  6 .....  165 ...  3 ....  200 ....  62 ...  11
61 ....  14 ...  8 .....  75 .....  4 ....  176 ....  63 ...  11
64 ....  18 ...  9 .....  129 ...  5 ....  120 ....  76 ...  31
65 ....  12 ...  10 ...  109 ...  7 ....  206 ....  81 ...  29
66 ....  12 ...  11 ...  123 ...  14 ...  52 .....  82 ...  19
67 ....  30 ...  12 ...  111 ...  16 ..  128 ....  84 ...  25
68 ....  52 ...  13 ...  43 .....  18 ..  110 ....  86 ...  17
69 ....  52 ...  15 ...  99 .....  19 ...  98 .....  87 ...  19
70 ....  44 ...  17 ...  111 ....  21 ..  112 ....  91 ..  15
71 ....  28 ...  20 ...  135 ....  22 ..  78 .....  92 ...  21
72 ....  28 ...  25 ...  77 ......  23 ..  118 ....  93 ...  11
73 ....  20 ...  26 ...  227 ....  24 ..  64 .....  96 ....  19
74 ....  56 ...  27 ...  93 ......  28 ...  88 ....  97 ....  5
75 ....  40 ...  29 ...  69 ......  30 ...  60 ....  100 ...  11
77 ....  50 ...  33 ...  73 ......  31 ...  34 ....  101 ...  11
78 ....  40 ...  35 ...  45 ......  32 ...  30 ....  103 ...  3
79 ....  46 ...  36 ...  83 ......  34 ...  54 ....  104 ...  9
80 ....  42 ...  39 ...  75 .......  37 ..  182 ..  105 ...  5
83 ....  36 ...  40 ...  85 ......  38 ...  88 ....  107 ...  7
85 ....  22 ...  42 ...  53 ......  41 ...  54 ....  108 ...  3
88 ....  26 ...  43 ...  89 ......  47 ...  38 ....  110 ...  3
89 ....  30 ...  44 ...  59 ......  49 ...  18 ....  111 ...  5
90 ....  20 ...  45 ...  37 ......  51 ...  60 ....  113 ...  5
94 ....  8 .....  46 ...  35 ......  53 ...  62  
95 ....  8 .....  48 ...  29 ......  55 ...  78  
98 ....  8 .....  50 ...  45 ......  56 ...  96  
99 ....  8 .....  52 ...  49  
102 ..  8 .....  54 ...  55  
106 ...  4 .....  57 ...  29  
109 ...  6  
112 ...  4  
114 ...  6  

2690  824 ..  893  2414 ...  760  2690 ..  2212  308

Likewise, as stated numerous times chapters/verse numbers are artificial.
The current ch/verse arrangement was innovated hundreds of years later.

36:1 ىس ya seen
36:2 والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation الحكىم the wise

In earliest manuscripts cannot find initials as separate verses.
They were counted instead as single verse like 38:1, 50:1, etc.

36:1 ىس ya seen والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation الحكىم the wise
38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation ذى owner الذكر the reminder
50:1 ق qaf والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation المجىد the glorious

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=460

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jRkVMZC/ch36v0-12.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=170

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMsT3QK0/ch35v45-ch36v5.jpg)


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=56

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2YwMbqD/ch35v43-ch36v9.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdfNqPGR/ch35v45-ch36v18.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=107

(https://i.postimg.cc/cC5VxqqD/ch36v0-15.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on October 29, 2018, 07:45:20 AM
Salaam,


Peace -- no "symmetry" only sorted showed what equates concealed what does not.

ch ....  even  ch ...  odd ...  ch ..  even ..  ch ...  odd
58 ....  22 ...  1 .....  7 .......  2 ....  286 ....  60 ...  13
59 ....  24 ...  6 .....  165 ...  3 ....  200 ....  62 ...  11
61 ....  14 ...  8 .....  75 .....  4 ....  176 ....  63 ...  11
64 ....  18 ...  9 .....  129 ...  5 ....  120 ....  76 ...  31
65 ....  12 ...  10 ...  109 ...  7 ....  206 ....  81 ...  29
66 ....  12 ...  11 ...  123 ...  14 ...  52 .....  82 ...  19
67 ....  30 ...  12 ...  111 ...  16 ..  128 ....  84 ...  25
68 ....  52 ...  13 ...  43 .....  18 ..  110 ....  86 ...  17
69 ....  52 ...  15 ...  99 .....  19 ...  98 .....  87 ...  19
70 ....  44 ...  17 ...  111 ....  21 ..  112 ....  91 ..  15
71 ....  28 ...  20 ...  135 ....  22 ..  78 .....  92 ...  21
72 ....  28 ...  25 ...  77 ......  23 ..  118 ....  93 ...  11
73 ....  20 ...  26 ...  227 ....  24 ..  64 .....  96 ....  19
74 ....  56 ...  27 ...  93 ......  28 ...  88 ....  97 ....  5
75 ....  40 ...  29 ...  69 ......  30 ...  60 ....  100 ...  11
77 ....  50 ...  33 ...  73 ......  31 ...  34 ....  101 ...  11
78 ....  40 ...  35 ...  45 ......  32 ...  30 ....  103 ...  3
79 ....  46 ...  36 ...  83 ......  34 ...  54 ....  104 ...  9
80 ....  42 ...  39 ...  75 .......  37 ..  182 ..  105 ...  5
83 ....  36 ...  40 ...  85 ......  38 ...  88 ....  107 ...  7
85 ....  22 ...  42 ...  53 ......  41 ...  54 ....  108 ...  3
88 ....  26 ...  43 ...  89 ......  47 ...  38 ....  110 ...  3
89 ....  30 ...  44 ...  59 ......  49 ...  18 ....  111 ...  5
90 ....  20 ...  45 ...  37 ......  51 ...  60 ....  113 ...  5
94 ....  8 .....  46 ...  35 ......  53 ...  62  
95 ....  8 .....  48 ...  29 ......  55 ...  78  
98 ....  8 .....  50 ...  45 ......  56 ...  96  
99 ....  8 .....  52 ...  49  
102 ..  8 .....  54 ...  55  
106 ...  4 .....  57 ...  29  
109 ...  6  
112 ...  4  
114 ...  6  

2690  824 ..  893  2414 ...  760  2690 ..  2212  308




Salaam Noon waalqalami,


The failures are not a proof of the absance of a pattern.
The failures are the result of researchers not knowing how the pattern looks like.

Example (from the Qur'an we have today 114 chapters and 6236 verses) :
If you are searching for multiples of 19:

The Qur'an has 6236 verses, not a multiple of 19
The 19 th chapter has 98 verses, not a multiple of 19
The sum of the first half of the Qur'an or the second half, not a multiple of 19
The  number of the chapters with initial letters, not a multiple of 19
The sum of the numbers of the chapters with initial letters, not a multiple of 19
....
The failures here, is because it is not intended to be a multiple of 19 , i think it serves an other purpose in the numerical structure of the Qur'an.

If you write a book and put a pattern in it, then the failed attempts of those searching for this pattern,  does not not make your book pattenless.



Do you think that the scribes made the division of the Quranic text to obtain this?

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9666.msg196954#msg196954 (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9666.msg196954#msg196954)


(http://i43.tinypic.com/2ev9jxe.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2100qaf.jpg)


                                                           ---------------------------------

- I believe that the Qur'an we have  today is preserved by God, if not then what are this verses about?

----

15:9   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

----

18:1   Praise be to God who has sent down the Book to His servant, and He has not made in it any crookedness.
18:2   It is valuable, giving warning of the severe punishment from Him; and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good works, that they will have an excellent reward.

----
41:41   Those who have rejected the reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honorable Book.
41:42   No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.


*********************


- And i believe that the numerical structure of the Qur'an prouves/will prouve its preservation.

If there is no numerical structure in the Qur'an, then what are these verses about , counting all things in numbers, 19, have certainty, increase in faith,  that the message is deliverd .... ?


72:28
so as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He surrounds all that is with them, and He has counted the number of all things.

                                                                        ------------------------

74:25   "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."
...

74:30   Upon it is nineteen.
74:31
We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
...
74:35   It is one of the great ones.
74:36   A warning to human beings.





Likewise, as stated numerous times chapters/verse numbers are artificial.
The current ch/verse arrangement was innovated hundreds of years later.

36:1 ىس ya seen
36:2 والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation الحكىم the wise

In earliest manuscripts cannot find initials as separate verses.
They were counted instead as single verse like 38:1, 50:1, etc.

36:1 ىس ya seen والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation الحكىم the wise
38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation ذى owner الذكر the reminder
50:1 ق qaf والقران wal-qur'āni/and the recitation المجىد the glorious

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=460

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=170

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=56

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1/handschrift/163

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1?handschrift=107


Salaam Noon waalqalami,



I know that the numbering of verses was later, but the text was separated in those manuscripts, so we know the first verse, verse number 2, verse number 3, .... 
----
 
 I do not understand what you mean by this:
Did the scribes know about the even - odd symmetry or is it just a  coincidence?
----

What member Eid posted is only a part of the even - odd symmetry
A  more detailed explanation here:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/even-and-odd-numbers/ (http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/even-and-odd-numbers/)

----

- The manuscripts you posted ( where the  initial letters are not separated verses )seem to have a  resemblance with the   Warsh reading .
The initial letters in Warsh reading are not separated verses in the 29 chapters.

- In the Hafs reading the initial letters are separated verses in 19 chapters
and not separated verses  in 10  chapters .

----------------

    الم         2
   الم         3
   المص         7
   الر تلك ايت الكتب الحكيم       10
   الر كتب احكمت ايته ثم فصلت من لدن حكيم خبير       11
   الر تلك ايت الكتب المبين       12
   المر تلك ايت الكتب و الذي انزل اليك من ربك الحق و لكن اكثر الناس لا يومنون       13
   الر كتب انزلنه اليك لتخرج الناس من الظلمت الي النور باذن ربهم الي صرط العزيز الحميد       14
   الر تلك ايت الكتب و قران مبين       15
   كهيعص       19
   طه       20
   طسم       26
   طس تلك ايت القران و كتاب مبين       27
   طسم       28
   الم       29
   الم       30
   الم       31
   الم       32
   يس       36
   ص و القران ذي الذكر       38
   حم       40
   حم       41
حم 1 عسق 2     42
   حم       43
   حم       44
   حم       45
   حم       46
   ق و القران المجيد      50
   ن و القلم و ما يسطرون      68





For more information concerning the ways that chapters are cut up into verses:


http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/files/basic-html/page402.html

Quote


         .... Ḥafs for the linguistic variations, coupled with the verse-count  of
              K?fa. I made this choice because it is nowadays the most widespread
              Reading;  this  is  how  God  wanted  it  and  it  is  certainly  not  a
              coincidence, as we have seen since the beginning of this work ...



https://www.scribd.com/document/348386912/The-Sun-Rises-in-the-West-2018-Farid-Gabteni
page 125


http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=98



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on January 17, 2019, 03:20:25 AM
Salaam,


According to this software ( see source ) the most used letter in the Quran ( Uthmani Script) is the letter Alif ا
When the letters in the Quran are sorted from the most used to the less used, gives the following result:

value   times used + letter
---------------------------------------
1                 52655 = ا
2                 38102 = ل
3                 27268 = ن
4                 26735 = م
5                 25746 = ي
6                 25676 = و
7                 17194 = ه
8                 12403 = ر
9                 11491 = ب
10               10520 = ت
11               10497 = ك
12               09405 = ع
13               08747 = ف
14               07034 = ق
15               06010 = س
16               05991 = د
17               04932 = ذ
18               04140 = ح
19               03317 = ج
20               02497 = خ
21               02124 = ش
22               02074 = ص
23               01686 = ض
24               01599 = ز
25               01414 = ث
26               01273 = ط
27               01221 = غ
28               00853 = ظ


When the values of these lettters are applied to the basmalah the result is 114,
same as the number of chapters in the Quran, and the number of times the basmalah occurs in the Quran.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


 
ب   س   م            ا    ل    ل    ه           ا    ل    ر   ح    م    ن            ا     ل     ر    ح     ي     م
   
4      5     18     8     2     1            3     4   18   8    2     1           7    2      2    1            4    15     9        =  114





note:
Another researcher, Adnan Rifai used another counting method and has obtained a value of 115 for the basmalah.



source Arabic :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir35892/#.XEA-3GlCeCh

Quran Uthmani Script

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on January 17, 2019, 11:30:23 PM
whoever is dealing with these numbers is really appreciable and hard work and the results are phenomenon
God bless you all to find more  :bravo:
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 18, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
whoever is dealing with these numbers is really appreciable and hard work and the results are phenomenon

peace, phenomenon is flipping numbers hunting multiples disease report only "hits" and hide failures.

When the values of these lettters are applied to the basmalah the result is 114,

peace, why not apply globally see if ~1/19 all verses are multiple?

1:1 114 9 15 4 1 2 2 7 1 2 8 18 4 3 1 2 8 18 5 4   
1:2 98 1 2 18 4 16 2 2 7 8 9 1 2 12 2 4 5 3     
1:3 74 1 2 8 18 4 3 1 2 8 18 5 4     
1:4 59 4 2 11 5 6 4 1 2 16 5 3     
1:5 130 1 5 1 11 3 12 9 16 6 1 5 1 11 3 15 10 12 5 3   
1:6 142 1 7 16 3 1 1 2 22 8 26 1 2 4 15 10 14 5 4     
1:7 332 22 8 26 1 2 17 5 3 1 3 12 4 10 12 2 5 7 4 27 5 8 1 2 4 27 23 6 9 12 2 5 7 4 6 2 1 1 2 23 1 2 5 3
       
108:1 116 1 3 1 1 12 26 5 3 11 1 2 11 6 25 8     
108:2 103 13 22 2 2 8 9 11 6 1 3 18 8     
108:3 89 1 3 21 1 3 5 11 7 6 1 2 1 9 10 8 

Btw, counts are off especially alif's more added years later although frequency seem correct "any" Arabic text.

http://www.intellaren.com/articles/en/a-study-of-arabic-letter-frequency-analysis

(http://www.intellaren.com/images/stories/alfa/en/arLetterWFreqGenSources.png)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on January 20, 2019, 02:13:35 AM
Salaam,


...

peace, why not apply globally see if ~1/19 all verses are multiple?

1:1 114 9 15 4 1 2 2 7 1 2 8 18 4 3 1 2 8 18 5 4   
1:2 98 1 2 18 4 16 2 2 7 8 9 1 2 12 2 4 5 3     
1:3 74 1 2 8 18 4 3 1 2 8 18 5 4     
1:4 59 4 2 11 5 6 4 1 2 16 5 3     
1:5 130 1 5 1 11 3 12 9 16 6 1 5 1 11 3 15 10 12 5 3   
1:6 142 1 7 16 3 1 1 2 22 8 26 1 2 4 15 10 14 5 4     
1:7 332 22 8 26 1 2 17 5 3 1 3 12 4 10 12 2 5 7 4 27 5 8 1 2 4 27 23 6 9 12 2 5 7 4 6 2 1 1 2 23 1 2 5 3
       
108:1 116 1 3 1 1 12 26 5 3 11 1 2 11 6 25 8     
108:2 103 13 22 2 2 8 9 11 6 1 3 18 8     
108:3 89 1 3 21 1 3 5 11 7 6 1 2 1 9 10 8 

Btw, counts are off especially alif's more added years later although frequency seem correct "any" Arabic text.

http://www.intellaren.com/articles/en/a-study-of-arabic-letter-frequency-analysis

(http://www.intellaren.com/images/stories/alfa/en/arLetterWFreqGenSources.png)

Peace Noon,

The post was about the basmalah
.

Salaam,

...

When the values of these lettters are applied to the basmalah the result is 114,
same as the number of chapters in the Quran, and the number of times the basmalah occurs in the Quran.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


 
ب   س   م            ا    ل    ل    ه           ا    ل    ر   ح    م    ن            ا     ل     ر    ح     ي     م
   
4      5     18     8     2     1            3     4   18   8    2     1           7    2      2    1            4    15     9        =  114

...

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.







1.  Is the result of a value of  114 for the basmalah a coincidence?

2.  Are the letters in the basmalah chosen to result in a value of 114?



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on January 20, 2019, 10:19:27 AM
1.  Is the result of a value of  114 for the basmalah a coincidence?

2.  Are the letters in the basmalah chosen to result in a value of 114?

1. not coincidence hunting multiples in a sea of multiples
2. expected and statistically meaningless as all multiples

37:79 سلم peace على on نوح noah فى in العلمىن the world?s inhabitants
37:79 114 15 2 4 12 2 5 3 6 18 13 5 1 2 12 2 4 5 3

37:143 فلولا so if not انه that he كان be/was من from المسبحىن those who glorify
51:20 وفى and in الارض the land اىت signs للموقنىن for the assured
51:54 فتول so turn عنهم from them فما so not انت are thou بملوم with blame
68:3 وان and indeed لك for you لاجرا surely reward of غىر other than ممنون ending
70:17 تدعو calling من who ادبر departs وتولى and turn away
74:34 والصبح and the dawn اذا when اسفر brightens
77:17 ثم furthermore نتبعهم we follow them الاخرىن the others
77:25 الم did not نجعل we make الارض the land كفاتا receptacle of
78:21 ان indeed جهنم abyss كانت be she/it مرصادا lying in wait of
79:8 قلوب hearts ىومىذ day therein واجفه palpitate
82:3 واذا and when البحار the geysers/seas فجرت gushed
83:6 ىوم day ىقوم raised الناس the humankind لرب to lord العلمىن the world?s inhabitants
85:15 ذو owner العرش the throne المجىد the glorious
87:10 سىذكر shall remembered من who ىخشى concerned
89:20 وتحبون and thou liking المال the wealth حبا love جما immense

102:4 ثم furthermore كلا nay سوف soon تعلمون thou knowing
102:4 114 25 4 11 2 1 15 6 13 10 12 2 4 6 3

left 15 others as exercise (pointless waist of time) for you to verify

peace!

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on January 23, 2019, 02:22:49 AM
Salaam,


1. not coincidence hunting multiples in a sea of multiples
2. expected and statistically meaningless as all multiples

37:79 سلم peace على on نوح noah فى in العلمىن the world’s inhabitants
37:79 114 15 2 4 12 2 5 3 6 18 13 5 1 2 12 2 4 5 3

37:143 فلولا so if not انه that he كان be/was من from المسبحىن those who glorify
51:20 وفى and in الارض the land اىت signs للموقنىن for the assured
51:54 فتول so turn عنهم from them فما so not انت are thou بملوم with blame
68:3 وان and indeed لك for you لاجرا surely reward of غىر other than ممنون ending
70:17 تدعو calling من who ادبر departs وتولى and turn away
74:34 والصبح and the dawn اذا when اسفر brightens
77:17 ثم furthermore نتبعهم we follow them الاخرىن the others
77:25 الم did not نجعل we make الارض the land كفاتا receptacle of
78:21 ان indeed جهنم abyss كانت be she/it مرصادا lying in wait of
79:8 قلوب hearts ىومىذ day therein واجفه palpitate
82:3 واذا and when البحار the geysers/seas فجرت gushed
83:6 ىوم day ىقوم raised الناس the humankind لرب to lord العلمىن the world’s inhabitants
85:15 ذو owner العرش the throne المجىد the glorious
87:10 سىذكر shall remembered من who ىخشى concerned
89:20 وتحبون and thou liking المال the wealth حبا love جما immense

102:4 ثم furthermore كلا nay سوف soon تعلمون thou knowing
102:4 114 25 4 11 2 1 15 6 13 10 12 2 4 6 3

left 15 others as exercise (pointless waist of time) for you to verify

peace!

Peace Noon,

I will try to explain again:

- The post was not about how many verses have a value of 114, none of these verses is repeated 114 times

- The basmalah is repeated 114 times and has a value of 114, that was the point.

----------

- No 1/ 19, no hunting, no waste of time, the Quran clearly mentions number 19 and indicates about other numbers:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/30/default.htm
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/default.htm


Unless you believe it make sense to say that God revealed number 19  and indicates about other numbers, to occupy those who reject / disbelieve, in counting, searching for patterns and multiples, in order to prouve that the Quran is a numerical structured preserved book.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.60
Reply #62



والله اعلم
Allah knows best

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on February 15, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
Salaam,



An attentive observer of chapter 74 Al-Mudathir will notice the unexpected length of verse 31 compared to the rest of the verses in this chapter.

Verse 31 explains the purpose of number 19 in the Quran (number mentioned in the previous verse).

Verse 31 consists of 57 words.

57 = 19 x 3


( 74:31 )

And not We have made keepers (of) the Fire except Angels
وما جعلنا اصحب النار الا مليكه

and not We have made their number except (as) a trial for those who disbelieve
وما جعلنا عدتهم الا فتنه للذين كفروا

that may be certain those who were given the Scripture
ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتب

and may increase those who believe (in) faith
ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمنا

and not may doubt those who were given the Scripture and the believers
ولا يرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتب والمومنون

and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers
وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكفرون

what (does) intend Allah by this example?
ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا

Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills /
كذلك يضل الله من يشا

and guides whom He wills
ويهدي من يشا

and none knows (the) soldiers / forces (of) your Lord except Him
وما يعلم جنود ربك الا هو

and not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.
وما هي الا ذكري للبشر


-----

There seems to be a relation between 2:217 and 74:31

From the 6236 verses in the quran only one other verse consists of 57 words, it is verse 217 in chapter 2 Al-Baqarah

217 = 31 x 7


( 2:217 )

They ask you about the month [the] sacred (concerning) fighting in it
يسلونك عن الشهر الحرام قتال فيه

say, "Fighting therein (is) a great (sin)
قل قتال فيه كبير

and hindering (people) from(the) way(of) Allah,and disbelief in Him and (preventing access to) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
وصد عن سبيل الله وكفر به والمسجد الحرام

and driving out its people from it, (is) greater (sin) near Allah. And [the] oppression (is) greater than [the] killing"
واخراج اهله منه اكبر عند الله والفتنه اكبر من القتل

and not they will cease (to) fight with you until they turn you away from your religion, if they are able
ولا يزالون يقتلونكم حتي يردوكم عن دينكم ان استطعوا

and whoever turns away among you from his religion, then dies while he (is) a disbeliever
ومن يرتدد منكم عن دينه فيمت وهو كافر

for those became worthless their deeds in the world and the Hereafter
فاوليك حبطت اعملهم في الدنيا والاخره

and those (are) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.
واوليك اصحب النار هم فيها خلدون


-----


When we divide the Quran chapters in two halfs i.e. the first 57 chapters + the last 57 chapters;

chapter 2 Al-Baqarah is the longest chapter (considering the number of verses) in the first half.

chapter 74 Al-Mudathir is the longest chapter (considering the number of verses) in the second half.

-----

The sum of the chapter numbers 2 Al-Baqarah and 74 Al-Mudathir:

2 + 74 = 76

76 = 19 x 4

-----

The sum of the verse numbers of chapter 2 Al-Baqarah and chapter 74 Al-Mudathir:

342 = 19 x 18

-----

The number of verses between 2:217 and 74:31 = 5301 verses.

5301 is a multiple of 57 and 31

5301 = 57 x 93

5301 = 31 x 171

-----

Another interesting observation.

Both verses ( 2:217 and 74:31 ) contain the expression: اصحب النار aṣḥāb al-nār

اصحب النار aṣḥāb al-nār is mentioned 20 times in 12 chapters in the Quran.

19 times for "some human beings".

1 time for "Angels/malāika".



The difference between the sum of the 20 verse numbers where the expression:
اصحب النار aṣḥāb al-nār is mentioned and the sum of the total verses of the 12 chapters containing this expression is:

114 i.e the number of chapters in the Quran.


1358 - 1244 = 114



12 chapters    total verses    20 verses containing اصحب النار aṣḥāb al-nār
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                  
2                        286                     39    81   217   257   275   
3                        200                      116               
5                        120                      29               
7                        206                      36    44   47   50      
10                      109                     27               
13                      43                       5                
39                      75                       8               
40                      85                       6    43            
58                      22                      17               
59                      24                      20                
64                      18                     10               
74                      56                     31               
                     
                       = 1244                     =1358
                     
-----

Chapter 74 Al-Mudathir:


يايها المدثر    1
قم فانذر   2
وربك فكبر   3
وثيابك فطهر   4
والرجز فاهجر   5
ولا تمنن تستكثر   6
ولربك فاصبر   7
فاذا نقر في الناقور   8
فذلك يوميذ يوم عسير   9
علي الكفرين غير يسير   10
ذرني ومن خلقت وحيدا   11
وجعلت له مالا ممدودا   12
وبنين شهودا   13
ومهدت له تمهيدا   14
ثم يطمع ان ازيد   15
كلا انه كان لايتنا عنيدا   16
سارهقه صعودا   17
انه فكر وقدر   18
فقتل كيف قدر   19
ثم قتل كيف قدر   20
ثم نظر   21
ثم عبس وبسر   22
ثم ادبر واستكبر   23
فقال ان هذا الا سحر يوثر   24
ان هذا الا قول البشر   25
ساصليه سقر   26
وما ادريك ما سقر   27
لا تبقي ولا تذر   28
لواحه للبشر    29
عليها تسعه عشر   30
31
وما جعلنا اصحب النار الا مليكه
 وما جعلنا عدتهم الا فتنه للذين كفروا
ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمنا
 ولا يرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتب والمومنون
وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكفرون
 ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا
 كذلك يضل الله من يشا ويهدي من يشا
وما يعلم جنود ربك الا هو وما هي الا ذكري للبشر
   
كلا والقمر   32
واليل اذ ادبر   33
والصبح اذا اسفر   34
انها لاحدي الكبر   35
نذيرا للبشر   36
لمن شا منكم ان يتقدم او يتاخر   37
كل نفس بما كسبت رهينه   38
الا اصحب اليمين   39
في جنت يتسالون   40
عن المجرمين   41
ما سلككم في سقر   42
قالوا لم نك من المصلين   43
ولم نك نطعم المسكين   44
وكنا نخوض مع الخايضين   45
وكنا نكذب بيوم الدين   46
حتي اتينا اليقين   47
فما تنفعهم شفعه الشفعين   48
فما لهم عن التذكره معرضين   49
كانهم حمر مستنفره   50
فرت من قسوره   51
بل يريد كل امري منهم ان يوتي صحفا منشره   52
كلا بل لا يخافون الاخره   53
كلا انه تذكره   54
فمن شا ذكره   55
وما يذكرون الا ان يشا الله هو اهل التقوي واهل المغفره   56


----

source:

https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir15166/#.XGVBtqBCeCg

Quran Uthmani Script

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view
-----


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.                     


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on February 28, 2019, 09:56:17 AM
Salaam,


Interesting observations about Al Qamar (The Moon ) in the Quran 


The Sidereal and Synodic Months


The sidereal month is the time the Moon takes to complete one full revolution around the Earth with respect to the background stars.

However, because the Earth is constantly moving along its orbit about the Sun, the Moon must travel slightly more than 360? to get from one new moon to the next.

Thus, the synodic month, or lunar month, is longer than the sidereal month.
 A sidereal month lasts 27.322 days, while a synodic month lasts 29.531 days.

animation:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html



The Arabic word " (al )qamar" meaning "(the) moon" is used 27 times in the Quran:



Translation:Muhammad Asad:

--------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
فلما را القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما افل قال لين لم يهدني ربي لاكونن من
 القوم الضالين

6:77 Then, when he beheld the moon rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer!"-but when it went down, he said, "Indeed, if my Sustainer guide me not. I will most certainly become one of the people who go astray!"

--------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------
فالق الاصباح وجعل اليل سكنا والشمس والقمر حسبانا ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم
6:96 [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses:  [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

--------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------
ان ربكم الله الذي خلق السموت والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي اليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العلمين
7:54 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!

--------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضيا والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك الا بالحق يفصل الايت لقوم يعلمون
10:5 He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected],  and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth.  Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge:

--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------
اذ قال يوسف لابيه يابت اني رايت احد عشر كوكبا والشمس والقمر رايتهم لي سجدين
12:4 LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!"

--------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------
الله الذي رفع السموت بغير عمد ترونها ثم استوي علي العرش وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي يدبر الامر يفصل الايت لعلكم بلقا ربكم توقنون
13:2 It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day].

--------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم الشمس والقمر دايبين وسخر لكم اليل والنهار
14:33 and has made the sun and the moon, both of them constant upon their courses, subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; and has made the night and the day subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you.

--------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره ان في ذلك لايت لقوم يعقلون
16:12 And He has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;  and all the stars are subservient to His command: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who use their reason!

--------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------
وهو الذي خلق اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر كل في فلك يسبحون
21:33 and [fail to see that] it is He who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon - all of them floating through space!

--------------------------------------------10--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يسجد له من في السموت ومن في الارض والشمس والقمر والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وكثير من الناس وكثير حق عليه العذاب ومن يهن الله فما له من مكرم ان الله يفعل ما يشا
22:18 ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth  the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God con?sciously],  whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come];  and he whom God shall scorn [on Resur?rection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.

--------------------------------------------11--------------------------------------------
تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا
25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon.

--------------------------------------------12--------------------------------------------
ولين سالتهم من خلق السموت والارض وسخر الشمس والقمر ليقولن الله فاني يوفكون
29:61 And thus it is [with most people]:  if thou ask them,  Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and made the sun and the moon subservi?ent [to His laws]?  - they will surely answer,  God.  How perverted, then, are their minds!

--------------------------------------------13--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري الي اجل مسمي وان الله بما تعملون خبير
31:29 Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]  and that God is fully aware of all that you do?

--------------------------------------------14--------------------------------------------
يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك والذين تدعون من دونه ما يملكون من قطمير
35:13 He makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and He makes the day grow longer by shortening the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion - whereas those whom you invoke instead of Him do not own so much as the husk of a date-stone!

--------------------------------------------15--------------------------------------------
والقمر قدرنه منازل حتي عاد كالعرجون القديم
36:39 and [in] the moon, for which We have determined phases [which it must traverse] till it becomes like an old date-stalk, dried-up and curved:

--------------------------------------------16--------------------------------------------
لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر ولا اليل سابق النهار وكل في فلك يسبحون
36:40 [and] neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day,  since all of them float through space [in accordance with Our laws].

--------------------------------------------17--------------------------------------------
خلق السموت والارض بالحق يكور اليل علي النهار ويكور النهار علي اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي الا هو العزيز الغفر
39:5 He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with [an inner] truth.  He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him].  Is not He the Almighty, the All-Forgiving?

--------------------------------------------18--19------------------------------------------
ومن ايته اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر لا تسجدوا للشمس ولا للقمر واسجدوا لله الذي خلقهن ان كنتم اياه تعبدون
41:37 Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship.

--------------------------------------------20--------------------------------------------
اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر
54:1 THE LAST HOUR draws near, and the moon is split asunder!

--------------------------------------------21--------------------------------------------
الشمس والقمر بحسبان
55:5 [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses;

--------------------------------------------22--------------------------------------------
وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا
71:16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected] and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?

--------------------------------------------23--------------------------------------------
كلا والقمر
74:32 NAY, but consider the moon!

--------------------------------------------24--------------------------------------------
وخسف القمر
75:8 and the moon is darkened,

--------------------------------------------25--------------------------------------------
وجمع الشمس والقمر
75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together

--------------------------------------------26--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا اتسق
84:18 and the moon, as it grows to its fullness

--------------------------------------------27--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا تليها
91:2 and the moon as it reflects the sun!


----------------------

Only one of these 27 occurrences ( of Qamar, Moon) is an indefinite ( نكرة  ) noun:

25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon

تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا

and a moon.............wa qamaran .............. وقمرا

and this is the 2916 th verse from the beginning of the Quran:

2916 = 54 x 54

54 is the number of chapter Al Qamar (The Moon )

https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh

----------------------

The moon  ( Al Qamar القمر )  is related to the lunar month.

9:36   https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/9/36/default.htm

BEHOLD, the number of months, in the sight of God, is twelve months, [laid down] in God's decree on the day when He created the heavens and the earth; [and] out of these, four are sacred: this is the ever-true law [of God]. Do not, then, sin against yourselves with regard to these [months]. And fight against those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, all together-just as they fight against you, [O believers,] all together -and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.
(translation:Muhammad Asad)

ان عده الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهرا في كتب الله يوم خلق السموت والارض منها اربعه حرم ذلك الدين القيم فلا تظلموا فيهن انفسكم وقتلوا المشركين كافه كما يقتلونكم كافه واعلموا ان الله مع المتقين

The word "month ; shahr شهر , الشهر ,  شهرا  " in singular form is mentioned 12 times in the Quran.
                                           
Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                2:185                    شهر                     shahr
2                2:185                   الشهر                    al-shahr
3                2:194                   الشهر                    al-shahr
4                2:194                  بالشهر                    bil-shahr
5                2:217                   الشهر                    al-shahr
6                5:2                       الشهر                    al-shahr
7                5:97                    والشهر                   wal-shahr
8                9:36                    شهرا                      shahran
9               34:12                    شهر                     shahr
10             34:12                    شهر                     shahr
11             46:15                   شهرا                     shahran
12             97:3                      شهر                    shahr


Another interesting observation that seems referring to number 12 in chapter 54.

The first letters of the verses in chapter 54 Al Qamar (The Moon ) consist of 12 different letters.

 
count         number of times         different letters   
1                  و                         19      
2                  ا                         11        
3                  ف                         10      
4                   ك                         5      
5                   س                         2      
6                   ت                         2      
7                   ي                         1                       
8                   ب                         1      
9                   ن                         1               
10                  م                         1                 
11                  خ                         1                 
12                  ح                         1    



http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/3.htm
www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%24hr


---------------------------


An indication in the Quran in (chapter 54- The Moon  Al Qamar , 1) referring to the landing on the moon.

54:1- The Hour has come closer and the moon has split (shaqqa).

iq'tarabati l-sāʿatu wa-inshaqqa l-qamaru

اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/1/default.htm




There is another indication in the Quran in the above verse referring to the landing on the moon. In order to have a better insight into this, let us dwell on the connotation of the Arabic word “shaqqa” which, among its multifarious meanings, signifies “rending asunder,” “splitting,” “fissuring;” it may also signify plowing the soil.

    25- We pour forth water in abundance.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 25)

    26- And We split (shaqqa) the earth in fragments.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 26)

As we see, to describe the fissures made by water on the earth’s soil, the same word “shaqqa” is used. One of the most important events that occasioned man’s visit to the moon was the sampling of the soil on the surface of the moon. The surface of the moon was fissured by man for the first time in history. The term “shaqqa” may refer to this cleavage.

We have examined the 1st verse of the sura “The Moon.” The 2nd verse of the same sura addresses the wrongdoers who preferred to ignore the evidences of God.

 
    2- Yet if they see a sign they turn away and they say, “A continuous sorcery!”
    (chapter 54- The Moon, 2)


http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/journey-to-the-moon/



The number of verses after 54:1 to the end of the Quran is 1389.

The year 1389 Hijri in the Muslim calendar corresponds to year 1969  in the Gregorian calendar, the year in which man landed on the moon for the first time
.


http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639



Gregorian to Hijri Calender (July 21, 1969)  :

https://www.islamicfinder.org/islamic-date-converter/
https://www.searchtruth.com/hijri/





sources:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-orbit-of-the-moon/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh
http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639
Quran Uthmani Script
The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on February 28, 2019, 06:30:34 PM
Salaam,


Interesting observations about Al Qamar (The Moon ) in the Quran 


The Sidereal and Synodic Months


The sidereal month is the time the Moon takes to complete one full revolution around the Earth with respect to the background stars.

However, because the Earth is constantly moving along its orbit about the Sun, the Moon must travel slightly more than 360? to get from one new moon to the next.

Thus, the synodic month, or lunar month, is longer than the sidereal month.
 A sidereal month lasts 27.322 days, while a synodic month lasts 29.531 days.

animation:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html



The Arabic word " (al )qamar" meaning "(the) moon" is used 27 times in the Quran:



Translation:Muhammad Asad:

--------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
فلما را القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما افل قال لين لم يهدني ربي لاكونن من
 القوم الضالين

6:77 Then, when he beheld the moon rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer!"-but when it went down, he said, "Indeed, if my Sustainer guide me not. I will most certainly become one of the people who go astray!"

--------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------
فالق الاصباح وجعل اليل سكنا والشمس والقمر حسبانا ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم
6:96 [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses:  [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

--------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------
ان ربكم الله الذي خلق السموت والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي اليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العلمين
7:54 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!

--------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضيا والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك الا بالحق يفصل الايت لقوم يعلمون
10:5 He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected],  and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth.  Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge:

--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------
اذ قال يوسف لابيه يابت اني رايت احد عشر كوكبا والشمس والقمر رايتهم لي سجدين
12:4 LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!"

--------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------
الله الذي رفع السموت بغير عمد ترونها ثم استوي علي العرش وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي يدبر الامر يفصل الايت لعلكم بلقا ربكم توقنون
13:2 It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day].

--------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم الشمس والقمر دايبين وسخر لكم اليل والنهار
14:33 and has made the sun and the moon, both of them constant upon their courses, subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; and has made the night and the day subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you.

--------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره ان في ذلك لايت لقوم يعقلون
16:12 And He has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;  and all the stars are subservient to His command: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who use their reason!

--------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------
وهو الذي خلق اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر كل في فلك يسبحون
21:33 and [fail to see that] it is He who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon - all of them floating through space!

--------------------------------------------10--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يسجد له من في السموت ومن في الارض والشمس والقمر والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وكثير من الناس وكثير حق عليه العذاب ومن يهن الله فما له من مكرم ان الله يفعل ما يشا
22:18 ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth  the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God con?sciously],  whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come];  and he whom God shall scorn [on Resur?rection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.

--------------------------------------------11--------------------------------------------
تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا
25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon.

--------------------------------------------12--------------------------------------------
ولين سالتهم من خلق السموت والارض وسخر الشمس والقمر ليقولن الله فاني يوفكون
29:61 And thus it is [with most people]:  if thou ask them,  Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and made the sun and the moon subservi?ent [to His laws]?  - they will surely answer,  God.  How perverted, then, are their minds!

--------------------------------------------13--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري الي اجل مسمي وان الله بما تعملون خبير
31:29 Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]  and that God is fully aware of all that you do?

--------------------------------------------14--------------------------------------------
يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك والذين تدعون من دونه ما يملكون من قطمير
35:13 He makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and He makes the day grow longer by shortening the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion - whereas those whom you invoke instead of Him do not own so much as the husk of a date-stone!

--------------------------------------------15--------------------------------------------
والقمر قدرنه منازل حتي عاد كالعرجون القديم
36:39 and [in] the moon, for which We have determined phases [which it must traverse] till it becomes like an old date-stalk, dried-up and curved:

--------------------------------------------16--------------------------------------------
لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر ولا اليل سابق النهار وكل في فلك يسبحون
36:40 [and] neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day,  since all of them float through space [in accordance with Our laws].

--------------------------------------------17--------------------------------------------
خلق السموت والارض بالحق يكور اليل علي النهار ويكور النهار علي اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي الا هو العزيز الغفر
39:5 He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with [an inner] truth.  He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him].  Is not He the Almighty, the All-Forgiving?

--------------------------------------------18--19------------------------------------------
ومن ايته اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر لا تسجدوا للشمس ولا للقمر واسجدوا لله الذي خلقهن ان كنتم اياه تعبدون
41:37 Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship.

--------------------------------------------20--------------------------------------------
اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر
54:1 THE LAST HOUR draws near, and the moon is split asunder!

--------------------------------------------21--------------------------------------------
الشمس والقمر بحسبان
55:5 [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses;

--------------------------------------------22--------------------------------------------
وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا
71:16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected] and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?

--------------------------------------------23--------------------------------------------
كلا والقمر
74:32 NAY, but consider the moon!

--------------------------------------------24--------------------------------------------
وخسف القمر
75:8 and the moon is darkened,

--------------------------------------------25--------------------------------------------
وجمع الشمس والقمر
75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together

--------------------------------------------26--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا اتسق
84:18 and the moon, as it grows to its fullness

--------------------------------------------27--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا تليها
91:2 and the moon as it reflects the sun!


----------------------

Only one of these 27 occurrences ( of Qamar, Moon) is an indefinite ( نكرة  ) noun:

25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon

تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا

and a moon.............wa qamaran .............. وقمرا

and this is the 2916 th verse from the beginning of the Quran:

2916 = 54 x 54

54 is the number of chapter Al Qamar (The Moon )

https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh

----------------------

The moon  ( Al Qamar القمر )  is related to the lunar month.

9:36   https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/9/36/default.htm

BEHOLD, the number of months, in the sight of God, is twelve months, [laid down] in God's decree on the day when He created the heavens and the earth; [and] out of these, four are sacred: this is the ever-true law [of God]. Do not, then, sin against yourselves with regard to these [months]. And fight against those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, all together-just as they fight against you, [O believers,] all together -and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.
(translation:Muhammad Asad)

ان عده الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهرا في كتب الله يوم خلق السموت والارض منها اربعه حرم ذلك الدين القيم فلا تظلموا فيهن انفسكم وقتلوا المشركين كافه كما يقتلونكم كافه واعلموا ان الله مع المتقين

The word "month ; shahr شهر , الشهر ,  شهرا  " in singular form is mentioned 12 times in the Quran.
                                           
Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                2:185                    شهر                     shahr
2                2:185                   الشهر                    al-shahr
3                2:194                   الشهر                    al-shahr
4                2:194                  بالشهر                    bil-shahr
5                2:217                   الشهر                    al-shahr
6                5:2                       الشهر                    al-shahr
7                5:97                    والشهر                   wal-shahr
8                9:36                    شهرا                      shahran
9               34:12                    شهر                     shahr
10             34:12                    شهر                     shahr
11             46:15                   شهرا                     shahran
12             97:3                      شهر                    shahr


Another interesting observation that seems referring to number 12 in chapter 54.

The first letters of the verses in chapter 54 Al Qamar (The Moon ) consist of 12 different letters.

 
count         number of times         different letters   
1                  و                         19      
2                  ا                         11        
3                  ف                         10      
4                   ك                         5      
5                   س                         2      
6                   ت                         2      
7                   ي                         1                       
8                   ب                         1      
9                   ن                         1               
10                  م                         1                 
11                  خ                         1                 
12                  ح                         1    



http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/3.htm
www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%24hr


---------------------------


An indication in the Quran in (chapter 54- The Moon  Al Qamar , 1) referring to the landing on the moon.

54:1- The Hour has come closer and the moon has split (shaqqa).

iq'tarabati l-sāʿatu wa-inshaqqa l-qamaru

اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/1/default.htm




There is another indication in the Quran in the above verse referring to the landing on the moon. In order to have a better insight into this, let us dwell on the connotation of the Arabic word ?shaqqa? which, among its multifarious meanings, signifies ?rending asunder,? ?splitting,? ?fissuring;? it may also signify plowing the soil.

    25- We pour forth water in abundance.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 25)

    26- And We split (shaqqa) the earth in fragments.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 26)

As we see, to describe the fissures made by water on the earth?s soil, the same word ?shaqqa? is used. One of the most important events that occasioned man?s visit to the moon was the sampling of the soil on the surface of the moon. The surface of the moon was fissured by man for the first time in history. The term ?shaqqa? may refer to this cleavage.

We have examined the 1st verse of the sura ?The Moon.? The 2nd verse of the same sura addresses the wrongdoers who preferred to ignore the evidences of God.

 
    2- Yet if they see a sign they turn away and they say, ?A continuous sorcery!?
    (chapter 54- The Moon, 2)


http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/journey-to-the-moon/



The number of verses after 54:1 to the end of the Quran is 1389.

The year 1389 Hijri in the Muslim calendar corresponds to year 1969  in the Gregorian calendar, the year in which man landed on the moon for the first time
.


http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639



Gregorian to Hijri Calender (July 21, 1969)  :

https://www.islamicfinder.org/islamic-date-converter/
https://www.searchtruth.com/hijri/





sources:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-orbit-of-the-moon/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh
http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639
Quran Uthmani Script
The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

25:61 .....in this verse... Which MOON  you are talking about....  :rotfl:
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on March 22, 2019, 09:00:05 AM
Salaam,


whoever is dealing with these numbers is really appreciable and hard work and the results are phenomenon
God bless you all to find more  :bravo:

Peace jkhan,
I agree.



25:61 .....in this verse... Which MOON  you are talking about....  :rotfl:

Those who accept  a "flat earth model"  will have different understanding
of some verses than those who accept a  "heliocentric model".

Btw off-topic here.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on March 22, 2019, 09:10:15 AM
Salaam,



The Metonic cycle .

For astronomy and calendar studies, the Metonic cycle or Enneadecaeteris (from Ancient Greek: ἐννεακαιδεκαετηρίς, "nineteen years") is a period of very close to 19 years that is nearly a common multiple of the solar year and the synodic (lunar) month. The Greek astronomer Meton of Athens (fifth century BC) observed that a period of 19 years is almost exactly equal to 235 synodic months and, rounded to full days, counts 6,940 days. The difference between the two periods (of 19 solar years and 235 synodic months) is only a few hours, depending on the definition of the year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle



- In the Quran the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar " are mentioned toghether 19 times in 18 verses.


- The 19th time the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar "  appear together in the Quran is in chapter 75 verse 9:


75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together.

        wajumiʿa l-shamsu wal-qamaru

        وَجُمِعَ الشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/9/default.htm




--------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
فالق الاصباح وجعل اليل سكنا والشمس والقمر حسبانا ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم
6:96 [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses:  [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.


--------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------
ان ربكم الله الذي خلق السموت والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي اليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العلمين
7:54 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!


--------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضيا والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك الا بالحق يفصل الايت لقوم يعلمون
10:5 He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected],  and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth.  Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge:


--------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------
اذ قال يوسف لابيه يابت اني رايت احد عشر كوكبا والشمس والقمر رايتهم لي سجدين
12:4 LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!"


--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------
الله الذي رفع السموت بغير عمد ترونها ثم استوي علي العرش وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي يدبر الامر يفصل الايت لعلكم بلقا ربكم توقنون
13:2 It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day].


--------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم الشمس والقمر دايبين وسخر لكم اليل والنهار
14:33 and has made the sun and the moon, both of them constant upon their courses, subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; and has made the night and the day subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you.


--------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره ان في ذلك لايت لقوم يعقلون
16:12 And He has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;  and all the stars are subservient to His command: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who use their reason!


-------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------
وهو الذي خلق اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر كل في فلك يسبحون
21:33 and [fail to see that] it is He who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon - all of them floating through space!


--------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يسجد له من في السموت ومن في الارض والشمس والقمر والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وكثير من الناس وكثير حق عليه العذاب ومن يهن الله فما له من مكرم ان الله يفعل ما يشا
22:18 ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth  the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God con?sciously],  whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come];  and he whom God shall scorn [on Resur?rection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.


--------------------------------------------10--------------------------------------------
ولين سالتهم من خلق السموت والارض وسخر الشمس والقمر ليقولن الله فاني يوفكون
29:61 And thus it is [with most people]:  if thou ask them,  Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and made the sun and the moon subservi?ent [to His laws]?  - they will surely answer,  God.  How perverted, then, are their minds!


--------------------------------------------11--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري الي اجل مسمي وان الله بما تعملون خبير
31:29 Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]  and that God is fully aware of all that you do?


--------------------------------------------12--------------------------------------------
يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك والذين تدعون من دونه ما يملكون من قطمير
35:13 He makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and He makes the day grow longer by shortening the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion - whereas those whom you invoke instead of Him do not own so much as the husk of a date-stone!


--------------------------------------------13--------------------------------------------
لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر ولا اليل سابق النهار وكل في فلك يسبحون
36:40 [and] neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day,  since all of them float through space [in accordance with Our laws].


--------------------------------------------14--------------------------------------------
خلق السموت والارض بالحق يكور اليل علي النهار ويكور النهار علي اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي الا هو العزيز الغفر
39:5 He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with [an inner] truth.  He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him].  Is not He the Almighty, the All-Forgiving?


--------------------------------------------15--16------------------------------------------
ومن ايته اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر لا تسجدوا للشمس ولا للقمر واسجدوا لله الذي خلقهن ان كنتم اياه تعبدون
41:37 Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship.


--------------------------------------------17--------------------------------------------
الشمس والقمر بحسبان
55:5 [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses;


--------------------------------------------18--------------------------------------------
وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا
71:16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected] and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?


--------------------------------------------19--------------------------------------------
وجمع الشمس والقمر
75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together

---------------




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/9/default.htm
http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
Quran Uthmani Script
The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on March 23, 2019, 08:10:00 AM
- In the Quran the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar " are mentioned toghether 19 times in 18 verses.

peace, since verse numbers are man-made; obviously not included in revelation evident looking at the earlier manuscripts and were mainly used by scribes as checksum and for quick reference (as today); therefore, combine below and now have (20) occurrences in (19) verses which is also meaningless other than numerology infatuation.

91:1-2 والشمس wal-shamsi/and the sun وضحها and brightness its والقمر wal-qamari/and the moon اذا when تلها follows it

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/2?handschrift=481

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnQ2K7wh/ch90v4-ch91v14.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on March 26, 2019, 09:36:10 AM
Salaam,


peace, since verse numbers are man-made; obviously not included in revelation evident looking at the earlier manuscripts and were mainly used by scribes as checksum and for quick reference (as today);
91:1-2 والشمس wal-shamsi/and the sun وضحها and brightness its والقمر wal-qamari/and the moon اذا when تلها follows it
...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/2?handschrift=481

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnQ2K7wh/ch90v4-ch91v14.jpg)

Peace Noon,

Also answered in previous pages e.g.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg419600#msg419600

And why post this manuscript and not thoses manuscripts where the first verse of chapter 91 is :

91:1 By the sun and its brightness.
wal-shamsi waḍuḥāhā.
وَالشَّمْسِ وَضُحَىٰهَا

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/91/1/default.htm


e.g. this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=170

(https://i.imgur.com/Ak9gqvJ.jpg)



or this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=56

(https://i.imgur.com/BxfGUD7.jpg)


The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



... therefore, combine below and now have (20) occurrences in (19) verses which is also meaningless other than numerology infatuation.

Posting this in a thread named?   

... And He has counted everything in numbers ... from 72:28

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/default.htm

so as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers .

liyaʿlama an qad ablaghū risālāti rabbihim wa-aḥāṭa bimā ladayhim wa-aḥṣā kulla shayin ʿadadan


---------------------

Your opposition to the numerical structure of the Quran is illogical and seems in contradiction with your understanding of 74:30-31.

According to your understanding 74:30-31 prophesies that those who disbelieve, will count and search for multiples of number 19  and patterns. (seems irrational i.e. those who disbelief, trying to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book).

And why oppose a fulfilled Prophecy, according to your understanding of 74:30-31?


---------------------


How is it possible to deny evidence like this:

God revealed number 19 and indicates to other numbers and explains the purposes e.g. 74:31 and 72:28,  evident if read in context and use logique, otherwise irrational explanations.

some examples simple and clear:

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

-The basmala has 19 letters

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

More about the link between chapter 9 and chapter 27.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0


-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 99

100 200 300

1000 2000 3000 5000 50000 100000


The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.


- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.

- Chapter 16 the Bee and the number of chromosomes.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

Very clear example and evidence for an objective observer.( but some might say that chapter "The Bee" is the 15 th chapter,  assembling chapter 8 and chapter 9 in one chapter )

- The odd - even symmetry 6555 - 6236
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg419600#msg419600

- Numerous other examples:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?board=54.0
etc, ....


---------------------


-  Some critises and try to discredit the numerical structure of the Quran by pointing out to errors and exaggerations of some results or/and an illogical explanation for 74:31 and other verses referring to the numerical structure of the Quran.

- Others try to cover up this number 19 by going as far as saying that the Quran consists of 113 chapters ( saying that chapter 8 and chapter 9 are one chapter )

- Others say that the basmalah has from 20 to 23 letters:

-- Some see an extra letter letter Ra ر because of the "Chedda ( diacritics for reading purpose ) on the letter Ra ر "in Al Rahman and Al Raheem  الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

-- Others want an extra Alif in the name Al Rahman.

-- Others say that there should be an extra alif in the word bismi بِسْمِ , like in bismi Rabbika 96:1 بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ

- Some claim that the results are 1/19.
whatever result one can always claim it is a coincidence, 1/19, numerology, etc....

What would be the reaction  of the author of a book containing patterns based on number 19 and/or other numbers, to those claiming that these patterns are not intended by the author, but the result of a coincidence or 1/19 or 1/... or  numerology, etc...


- Some still asking, like predicted in 74:31:

...“What does God mean by this example?”...
... matha arada Allahu bihatha mathalan ?
... مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ...


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm


- Others want to (do not) believe in the numerical structure of the Quran but with the condition that the patterns should conform to their expectations.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/26/4/default.htm

If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.

in nasha nunazzil ʿalayhim mina l-samāi āyatan faẓallat aʿnāquhum lahā khāḍiʿīna

إِن نَّشَأْ نُنَزِّلْ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ ءَايَةً فَظَلَّتْ أَعْنَٰقُهُمْ لَهَا خَٰضِعِينَ



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on March 26, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
e.g. this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=170

or this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=56

The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.

peace,

Not about different readings see oldest manuscripts time of revelation.
consistently don?t number initials, etc. rearrangement 100+ years later.

Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder not manuscript of evolving script.

18:1-2

this refers to the book?s "contents" and not structure.
3:99, 7:45, 786, 11:19, 14:3, 18:1 عوجا crookedness of

41:41-42

56:77-78

72:28

75:17-18-19

85:21 -22

not about man-made verse numbers or non-existent code.

And why oppose a fulfilled Prophecy, according to your understanding of 74:30-31?

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه infatuation (trial)


some examples simple and clear:

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

books/hadith, chapters, door numbers, etc. have multiples that people freak out!

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

Ok, and they do not consistently include perhaps code 27 since it's 2nd or 27th occurrence!

-The basmala has 19 letters

Ok exactly 19 letters below 19th verse if include chapter title.

2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

Ok, try start counting from chapter 1 or 8 or backwards from 114.

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

Not coincidence hunt and hide failed trials only show hits!

-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

Ok, and there are 98 (not multiple) verses in 19th chapter from beginning.

-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

30 / 19 = 1.57894736842

The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.

try add sums all occurrences 5% probability.

- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.

from beginning 19th is 2:60 رزق provision الله the god
from end 19th occurrence 101:0 بسم in name الله the god
from beginning start verse i.e. 7th 2:15 الله the god

- Chapter 16 the Bee and the number of chromosomes.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

16 or 128 is not multiple nor has to do with code.

- The odd - even symmetry 6555 - 6236

try adding/deleting even # of verses to any odd ch 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.

- Numerous other examples:

Ok small chapter some say last revealed.

1. show which chapter it is use code whatever?
2. show how it is protected use code whatever?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/110/vers/1?handschrift=481
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on March 31, 2019, 07:56:01 AM
Salaam,


peace,

Not about different readings see oldest manuscripts time of revelation.
consistently don’t number initials, etc. rearrangement 100+ years later.
Peace Noon,

Not about man made or rearranged , rather variations (i.e. cutting the same text in verses) of an original source.

Example: The length of verse 31 compared to other verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?


بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
يايها المدثر﴿1﴾ قم فانذر﴿2﴾ وربك فكبر﴿3﴾ وثيابك فطهر ﴿4﴾ والرجز فاهجر ﴿5﴾ ولا تمنن تستكثر ﴿6﴾ ولربك فاصبر﴿7﴾ فاذا نقر في الناقور﴿8﴾ فذلك يوميذ يوم عسير ﴿9﴾ علي الكفرين غير يسير﴿10﴾ذرني ومن خلقت وحيدا﴿11﴾وجعلت له مالا ممدودا﴿12﴾ وبنين شهودا ﴿13﴾ ومهدت له تمهيدا﴿14﴾ ثم يطمع ان ازيد ﴿15﴾ كلا انه كان لايتنا عنيدا ﴿16﴾ سارهقه صعودا ﴿17﴾انه فكر وقدر﴿18﴾ فقتل كيف قدر ﴿18﴾ ثم قتل كيف قدر ﴿20﴾ ثم نظر﴿21﴾ ثم عبس وبسر﴿22﴾ ثم ادبر واستكبر﴿23﴾ فقال ان هذا الا سحر يوثر﴿24﴾ ان هذا الا قول البشر ﴿25﴾ساصليه سقر﴿26﴾ وما ادريك ما سقر ﴿27﴾ لا تبقي ولا تذر ﴿28﴾ لواحه للبشر ﴿28﴾ عليها تسعه عشر ﴿30﴾ وما جعلنا اصحب النار الا مليكه وما جعلنا عدتهم الا فتنه للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمنا ولا يرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتب والمومنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكفرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشا ويهدي من يشا وما يعلم جنود ربك الا هو وما هي الا ذكري للبشر﴿31﴾ كلا والقمر﴿32﴾واليل اذ ادبر﴿33﴾ والصبح اذا اسفر﴿34﴾ انها لاحدي الكبر ﴿35﴾ نذيرا للبشر ﴿36﴾ لمن شا منكم ان يتقدم او يتاخر ﴿37﴾ كل نفس بما كسبت رهينه ﴿38﴾ الا اصحب اليمين ﴿38﴾ في جنت يتسالون ﴿40﴾ عن المجرمين ﴿41﴾ ما سلككم في سقر ﴿42﴾ قالوا لم نك من المصلين ﴿43﴾ ولم نك نطعم المسكين ﴿44﴾ وكنا نخوض مع الخايضين ﴿45﴾ وكنا نكذب بيوم الدين﴿46﴾ حتي اتينا اليقين ﴿47﴾ فما تنفعهم شفعه الشفعين ﴿48﴾ فما لهم عن التذكره معرضين ﴿48﴾ كانهم حمر مستنفره﴿50﴾ فرت من قسوره ﴿51﴾ بل يريد كل امري منهم ان يوتي صحفا منشره ﴿52﴾ كلا بل لا يخافون الاخره ﴿53﴾ كلا انه تذكره ﴿54﴾ فمن شا ذكره ﴿55﴾ وما يذكرون الا ان يشا الله هو اهل التقوي واهل المغفره ﴿56﴾




------

An example of variations( cutting the same text in verses ) :
See manuscript you posted in and see manuscripts i posted here;

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg423891#msg423891

------

Example: Initial letters (in 29  chapters ) separated in first verse in 19 chapters, and part of first verse in 10 chapters. (what was the source ?), why not all saparated or all part of first verse?

Also answered about initials :

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.msg415581#msg415581

-------


Example: The spelling of the name IBRAHEEM ابرهم  in chapter 2 (15 occurrences )  without "ya ي" , and with "ya ي" in the rest of the Quran (54 occurrences), if the spelling of the name IBRAHEEM  in original manuscript was with "ya ي" , why was the spelling changed only in chapter 2 and not in the 24 other chapters.

It is more likely that original was spelled  without "ya ي" in chapter 2 and with "ya ي" in the 24 other chapters, and that some scribes added the letter "ya ي" in chapter 2 to conform to the rest of the manuscript, "thinking they were correcting an error" of  previous scribes, while this particular spelling seems intended.
In some "oldest manuscripts" with "ya ي"and in others whithout "ya ي" in chapter 2.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/


-------



الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder not manuscript of evolving script.

Could you explain what is " الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder" and how it is preserved.



this refers to the book’s "contents" and not structure.
3:99, 7:45, 786, 11:19, 14:3, 18:1 عوجا crookedness of

Yes, also possible explanation.



not about man-made verse numbers or non-existent code.

Could you explain,  refer to what?

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/


74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه infatuation (trial)

- 19 referring to a numerical structure as an answer in ( 74:30-31 ) to those claiming " human words" in 74:25 and
 fitna / difficulty / trial  for those who disbelieve/ reject,
certainty for some, increasing in faith for others and no doubt for others.

It does not seem a satisfying answer, to those who claim " human words" in 74:25 to
reveal a number without other meaning.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/30/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm





books/hadith, chapters, door numbers, etc. have multiples that people freak out!

?



Ok exactly 19 letters below 19th verse if include chapter title.

2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

The basmalah has 19 letters and is repeated 114 times.
Why would that exclude other verses consisting of 19 letters.



Ok, try start counting from chapter 1 or 8 or backwards from 114.

There is no link here ( chapter 1 and  8 ) , link between chapter 9 and 27 i.e. missing basmalah, extra basmalah.



Ok, and they do not consistently include perhaps code 27 since it's 2nd or 27th occurrence!
Not coincidence hunt and hide failed trials only show hits!

Inconceivable how an objective person can say "coincidence" about this, it is to obvious,  and that is also the reason why some try to cover up this number 19 by claiming 113 chapters,  20-23 letters in the basmalah, etc ....

Facts:

The Quran clearly mentioned this number 19 as a response to the claim " Human words 74: 25"

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

-The basmala has 19 letters

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.





Ok, and there are 98 (not multiple) verses in 19th chapter from beginning.

More subtle, i.e. the Quran uses 77 different numbers for the  total verses of  the chapters :

From largest to smallest, chapter 19 ( 98 verses) is the 19 th:

286 -- 227 -- 206 -- 200 -- 182 -- 176 -- 165 -- 135 -- 129 -- 128 -- 123 -- 120 -- 118 -- 112 -- 111 -- 110 -- 109 -- 99 -- 98 -- 96 -- 93 -- 89 -- 88 -- 85 -- 83 -- 78 -- 77 --  75 -- 73 -- 69 -- 64 -- 62 -- 60 -- 59 -- 56 -- 55 -- 54 -- 53 -- 52 -- 50 -- 49 -- 46 -- 45 -- 44 -- 43 -- 42 -- 40 -- 38 -- 37 -- 36 -- 35 -- 34 -- 31 -- 30 -- 29 -- 28 -- 26 -- 25 -- 24 --  22 -- 21 -- 20 -- 19 --18 -- 17 -- 15 -- 14 -- 13 -- 12 -- 11 -- 9 -- 8 -- 7 -- 6 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3






30 / 19 = 1.57894736842
try add sums all occurrences 5% probability.

Each person would have a different request.



from beginning 19th is 2:60 رزق provision الله the god
from end 19th occurrence 101:0 بسم in name الله the god
from beginning start verse i.e. 7th 2:15 الله the god

Not only about 19, numerous other examples in the name "Allah" in the Quran.



16 or 128 is not multiple nor has to do with code.

Not about code, about chapter 16 and the number of chromosomes of honey bee.

Read more here...

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0




try adding/deleting even # of verses to any odd ch 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.

Why so careful, add/delete randomly.


Ok small chapter some say last revealed.

1. show which chapter it is use code whatever?
2. show how it is protected use code whatever?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/110/vers/1?handschrift=481

Not sure if there is, consider also that what is discovered is only a part, and some results contain errors, exaggerations and coincidences.

----------


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 01, 2019, 12:12:13 AM
Not about man made or rearranged , rather variations (i.e. cutting the same text in verses) of an original source.

peace, yes that's what it means man made rearrangements is cutting the same verses of an original source.

Example: The length of verse 31 compared to other verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?

same reason 2:282 is longest verse and likewise 3:154 and 48:29 are the only two verses which contain all letters.

An example of variations( cutting the same text in verses )

Example: Initial letters (in 29  chapters ) separated in first verse in 19 chapters, and part of first verse in 10 chapters. (what was the source ?), why not all saparated or all part of first verse?

Example: The spelling of the name IBRAHEEM ابرهم  in chapter 2 (15 occurrences )  without "ya ي" , and with "ya ي" in the rest of the Quran...

no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together likewise ا ب ره ى م Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Could you explain what is " الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder" and how it is preserved.

Could you explain,  refer to what?

41:41-42

56:77-78

72:28

75:17-18-19

85:21 -22

it is continuous 16:43 فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder ان if كنتم be you لا not تعلمون thou knowing

hence the reminder similar to a file retrieved from "the cloud" no need to preserve or back it up since it's downloadable

- 19 referring to a numerical structure as an answer in ( 74:30-31 ) to those claiming " human words" in 74:25

?

The basmalah has 19 letters and is repeated 114 times.

Inconceivable how an objective person can say "coincidence" about this, it is to obvious ...

Facts:

NOT coincidence hunting multiples showing hits, hiding failures, including/excluding chapter titles, etc. may also lead to Arithmomania  mental disorder/disease obsessive?compulsive disorder (OCD) need to count everything around them including number of posts, etc.

NOT about structure/code; verses pertain to those who reject...

66:6  علىها over her/it ملىكه controllers غلاظ stern شدد severe

74:22 ثم furthermore عبس he frowned وبسر and scowled
74:23 ثم furthermore ادبر departs واستكبر and acts arrogant
74:24 فقل so said ان indeed هذا this الا except سحر magic ىوثر imitated
74:25 ان indeed هذا this الا except قول speech البشر the mortal
74:26 ساصلىه soon I will drive him سقر abyss
74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet [group of (9)] عشر ten (10) [group of (19)]
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers (angels) وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...


Why so careful, add/delete randomly.

the verses were clearly numbered by scribes (not random, that's what they said, likewise added chapter titles as well) it's a simple grid used as checksum and balance easily done with billions of combinations. e.g. took two chapters from bible Gospel of Matthew and Acts since they each have 28 chapters and cut up a couple of verses (took only 10 minutes although longer to format) have a look perfectly balanced with countless combinations and to my surprise totals were multiples! Coincidence?

ch    vrs     ch+v            odd            even    0=e 1=o     oo    oe eo    ee       
         
1    25        26            0    0        26    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
2    23        25            1    25        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
3    17        20            0    0        20    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
4    25        29            1    29        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
5    38        43            1    43        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
6    34        40            0    0        40    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
7    29        36            0    0        36    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
8    34        42            0    0        42    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
9    28        37            1    37        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
10    42        52            0    0        52    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
11    30        41            1    41        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
12    50        62            0    0        62    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
13    48        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
14    27        41            1    41        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
15    39        54            0    0        54    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
16    28        44            0    0        44    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
17    27        44            0    0        44    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
18    25        43            1    43        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
19    20        39            1    39        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
20    34        54            0    0        54    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
21    36        57            1    57        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
22    46        68            0    0        68    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
23    39        62            0    0        62    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
24    41        65            1    65        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0           
25    36        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
26    65        91            1    91        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
27    67        94            0    0        94    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
28    19        47            1    47        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Matt totals ................. 14                    14       14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
29    16        45            1    45        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
30    37        67            1    67        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
31    16        47            1    47        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
32    27        59            1    59        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
33    32        65            1    65        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
34    15        49            1    49        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
35    50        85            1    85        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
36    40        76            0    0        76    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
37    43        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
38    48        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
39    20        59            1    59        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
40    15        55            1    55        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
41    42        83            1    83        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
42    28        70            0    0        70    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
43    41        84            0    0        84    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
44    40        84            0    0        84    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
45    24        69            1    69        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
46    28        74            0    0        74    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
47    41        88            0    0        88    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
48    38        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
49    41        90            0    0        90    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
50    30        80            0    0        80    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
51    35        86            0    0        86    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
52    17        69            1    69        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
53    27        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
54    23        77            1    77        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
55    45        100         0    0        100    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
56    31        87            1    87        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Acts totals ................. 14                    14       14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
1596 1862   3458         28 1596 1862   28     28    28      14  14  14  14         
84.0  98.0    182.0             84.0   98.0         
x 19  x 19    x 19               x 19     x 19                       

peace!

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 06, 2019, 12:03:14 AM
Salaam,


peace, yes that's what it means man made rearrangements is cutting the same verses of an original source.

Peace Noon,

This is my understanding:


The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be
intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.






same reason 2:282 is longest verse and likewise 3:154 and 48:29 are the only two verses which contain all letters.

You say:" same reason", but don't explain what this "same reason" is.

The length of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter is an indication that this is an intended structure and not an "arbitrary man made cutting of the text in verses".

The length of the chapters seems also to be part of this structure, i.e. in the Quran there are very short chapters and long chapters:

Examlpe: chapter 2  has almost the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the last 53 chapters of the Quran.

Examlpe: 2:282  has the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the 8 shortest chapters of the Quran.
 
It seems that his structure is intended and there is wisdom behind it.
The numerical structure could be one of the reasons for this arrangement.






no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together ...

Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.



More information about this manuscript (Or. 2165 )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date

    Second half of the 1st century of hijra.

    The dating of B. L. Or. 2165 has an interesting history.[1] William Wright was perhaps the first scholar to publish this manuscript and he dated it to the 8th century CE.[2] This date was accepted by Josef von Karabacek who dated the manuscript to the early 8th century CE, i.e., the end of the 1st century of hijra or the beginning of the 2nd century.[3] On the other hand, based on a careful evaluation of the palaeographic considerations, Adolf Grohmann dated this manuscript to the 1st century of hijra.[4] Furthermore, Noseda places this manuscript in the 1st century of hijra.[5]

    For reasons which remain unelaborated, Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi dated B. L. Or. 2165 to the late 2nd century of hijra (i.e., 8th century CE).[6] However, a study by Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the 1st century Qur'anic manuscript Arabe 328a in the Biblioth?que Nationale, Paris, suggesting that it was written in the qira'at of Ibn ʿAmir.[7] This manuscript was recently studied by Intisar A. Rabb, who corrected Dutton's initial suggestion showing that it has the non–canonical Ḥimṣī reading.[8] Based on the similarity between Arabe 328a and B. L. Or. 2165, Dutton suggests re–dating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86–96 AH), i.e., within the period 30–85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. The last part of first century hijra dating for this manuscript was also suggested by Rabb.[9] Thus, these studies confirm the earlier datings of Karabacek and Grohmann.
...
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/ms2165.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses.


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f88v
30:1 الم  Alif. Lam. Mim.

(https://i.imgur.com/gwidm3N.jpg)
---------------




http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f91r
31:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.

(https://i.imgur.com/xCaJ6Tf.jpg)
---------------




http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f117r
42:1 حم عسق Ha. Mim.   Ayn. Sin. Qaf.

(https://i.imgur.com/mLzFw9d.jpg)

--------------------------------------------------------






...  likewise ا ب ره ى م Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Moved this part of your post to: "TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM":

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424177#msg424177






it is continuous 16:43 فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder ان if كنتم be you لا not تعلمون thou knowing

hence the reminder similar to a file retrieved from "the cloud" no need to preserve or back it up since it's downloadable

In 16:43 what is continuous and who should ask what to who?

That does not explain what is "الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder" and how it is preserved?

The verse says: "preserved". 
You say: "no need to preserve", maybe explain better wat you mean.





NOT coincidence hunting multiples showing hits, hiding failures, including/excluding chapter titles, etc. may also lead to Arithmomania  mental disorder/disease obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) need to count everything around them including number of posts, etc.

NOT about structure/code; verses pertain to those who reject...

66:6  علىها over her/it ملىكه controllers غلاظ stern شدد severe

74:22 ثم furthermore عبس he frowned وبسر and scowled
74:23 ثم furthermore ادبر departs واستكبر and acts arrogant
74:24 فقل so said ان indeed هذا this الا except سحر magic ىوثر imitated
74:25 ان indeed هذا this الا except قول speech البشر the mortal
74:26 ساصلىه soon I will drive him سقر abyss
74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet [group of (9)] عشر ten (10) [group of (19)]
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers (angels) وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...

- Not about hiding -- see results and calculate probability.

- I don't think that 66:6 is relevant to explain 74:31
In 74:31  "The fitna, to have certainty, increase in faith, no doubt" ;  is not about Malāika / Angels,  but about " their number / ʿiddatahum / عدتهم"

- How does it make sense to reveal a number without meaning  as response to those who accuse the Quran to be "human words".





the verses were clearly numbered by scribes (not random, that's what they said, likewise added chapter titles as well) it's a simple grid used as checksum and balance easily done with billions of combinations. e.g. took two chapters from bible Gospel of Matthew and Acts since they each have 28 chapters and cut up a couple of verses (took only 10 minutes although longer to format) have a look perfectly balanced with countless combinations and to my surprise totals were multiples! Coincidence?

ch    vrs     ch+v            odd            even    0=e 1=o     oo    oe eo    ee       
         
1    25        26            0    0        26    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
2    23        25            1    25        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
3    17        20            0    0        20    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
4    25        29            1    29        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
5    38        43            1    43        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
6    34        40            0    0        40    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
7    29        36            0    0        36    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
8    34        42            0    0        42    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
9    28        37            1    37        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
10    42        52            0    0        52    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
11    30        41            1    41        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
12    50        62            0    0        62    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
13    48        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
14    27        41            1    41        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
15    39        54            0    0        54    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
16    28        44            0    0        44    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
17    27        44            0    0        44    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
18    25        43            1    43        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
19    20        39            1    39        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
20    34        54            0    0        54    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
21    36        57            1    57        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
22    46        68            0    0        68    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
23    39        62            0    0        62    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
24    41        65            1    65        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0           
25    36        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
26    65        91            1    91        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
27    67        94            0    0        94    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
28    19        47            1    47        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Matt totals ................. 14                    14       14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
29    16        45            1    45        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
30    37        67            1    67        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
31    16        47            1    47        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
32    27        59            1    59        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
33    32        65            1    65        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
34    15        49            1    49        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
35    50        85            1    85        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
36    40        76            0    0        76    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
37    43        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
38    48        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
39    20        59            1    59        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
40    15        55            1    55        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
41    42        83            1    83        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
42    28        70            0    0        70    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
43    41        84            0    0        84    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
44    40        84            0    0        84    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
45    24        69            1    69        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
46    28        74            0    0        74    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
47    41        88            0    0        88    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
48    38        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
49    41        90            0    0        90    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
50    30        80            0    0        80    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
51    35        86            0    0        86    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
52    17        69            1    69        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
53    27        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
54    23        77            1    77        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
55    45        100         0    0        100    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
56    31        87            1    87        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Acts totals ................. 14                    14       14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
1596 1862   3458         28 1596 1862   28     28    28      14  14  14  14         
84.0  98.0    182.0             84.0   98.0         
x 19  x 19    x 19               x 19     x 19                       

peace!

Working "backwards" i.e. imitate,replicate a pattern after it becomes known.
Adapting the number of verses to obtain symmetry. Done on purpose not randomly,




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
......................................

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 06, 2019, 10:23:44 AM
peace ibn_a

This is my understanding:

You say:" same reason", but don't explain what this "same reason" is.

The length of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter is an indication that this is an intended structure and not an "arbitrary man made cutting of the text in verses".

The length of the chapters seems also to be part of this structure, i.e. in the Quran there are very short chapters and long chapters:

Examlpe: chapter 2  has almost the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the last 53 chapters of the Quran.

Examlpe: 2:282  has the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the 8 shortest chapters of the Quran.
 
It seems that his structure is intended and there is wisdom behind it.
The numerical structure could be one of the reasons for this arrangement.

Again chapter/verses is simple human made arrangement for easy reference and checksum.

Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.

Yes know manuscript (not oldest) some initialed verses resemble current while others do not.
Or.2165 dating from the eighth century (701 to 800 CE) over two-thirds of the complete text.

Sūrah 7:40 - Sūrah 9:96
Sūrah 10: 9 - Sūrah 39:48
Sūrah 40:63 - Sūrah 43:71

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

Have a look at chapters 19 and 29 for example which clearly initials are together single verse.
Likewise check end 10th verse marker offset by one i.e. what should be 29:11 was 29:12, etc.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CKh6RmbT/ch29v1-13.jpg)

Moved this part of your post to: "TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM":

Again look at 1st century "the oldest" manuscripts ا ب ره ى م consistently spelled in 2nd chapter.
(no more comments on this end of discussion)

In 16:43 what is continuous and who should ask what to who?

That does not explain what is "الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder" and how it is preserved?

The verse says: "preserved". 
You say: "no need to preserve", maybe explain better wat you mean.

- How does it make sense to reveal a number without meaning  as response to those who accuse the Quran to be "human words".

Not about numerology, open separate topic/thread otherwise we?ll be all over the place.
Not about ?human words? (your assumption) makes sense simply read what it is about.

74:31 ? ولىقول and let speaketh/ask الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?
كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed ?


Working "backwards" i.e. imitate,replicate a pattern after it becomes known.
Adapting the number of verses to obtain symmetry. Done on purpose not randomly,

Again chapter/verses arrangements which there are several is clearly by humans (1. not part of revelation 2. they said verse #s added later) and only showed you an example how it was done which btw is superior with (5) multiple totals.

peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 10, 2019, 09:44:26 AM
Salaam,



peace ibn_a
Again chapter/verses is simple human made arrangement for easy reference and checksum.


Again chapter/verses arrangements which there are several is clearly by humans (1. not part of revelation 2. they said verse #s added later) and only showed you an example how it was done which btw is superior with (5) multiple totals.

peace!

Peace Noon,

Not man made arrangement, probably variations of an original revealed arrangement.
See  25:32 and 73:4  ---- the word  رتل

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane (d. 1876)
http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=50

Habib Anthony Salmone, An Advanced Learner's Arabic-English Dictionary (1889)
http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=52


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

Muhammad Asad:

25:32 Now they who are bent on denying the truth are wont to ask. ?Why has not the Qur'an been bestowed on him from on high in one single re?velation?"26 [it has been revealed] in this manner so that We might strengthen thy heart thereby - for We have so arranged its component parts that they form one consistent whole -27

Note 26
Lit., "in one piece" or "as one statement" (jumlatan wahidatan) - implying, in the view of the opponents of Islam, that the gradual, step-by-step revelation of the Qur'an points to its having been "composed" by Muhammad to suit his changing personal and political requirements.


Note 27
I.e. free of all inner contradictions (cf. 4:82). See also 39:23, where the Qur'an is spoken of as "fully consistent within itself". The concise phrase rattalnahu tartilan comprises the parallel concepts of "putting the component parts [of a thing] together and arranging them well" as well as "endowing it with inner consistency". Inasmuch as full consistency and freedom from contradic?tions in a message spread over twenty-three years of a life as full of movement and drama as that of the Prophet does give a clear indication of its God-inspired quality, it is bound to strengthen the faith of every thinking believer: and herein lies, according to the Qur'an itself, the deepest reason for its slow, gradual revelation. (When applied to the reciting of the Qur'an - as in 73:4 - the term tartil refers to the measured diction and the thoughtful manner in which it ought to be enunciated.)


------

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/73/4/default.htm

Muhammad Asad:

73:4 or add to it [at will]; and [during that time] recite the Qur'an calmly and distinctly, with thy mind attuned to its meaning.3

Note 3
This, I believe, is the closest possible rendering of the phrase rattil al-qur'ana tartilan. The term tartil primarily denotes "the putting [of something] together distinctly, in a well-arranged manner, and without any haste" (Jawhari, Baydawi; also Lisan al-Arab, Qamus). When applied to the recitation of a text, it signifies a calm, measured utterance with thoughtful consideration of the meaning to be brought out. A somewhat different significance attaches to a variant of this phrase in 25:32, applying to the manner in which the Qur'an was revealed.







Yes know manuscript (not oldest) ...

- date manuscript:

https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/ms2165.html






... some initialed verses resemble current while others do not.

- Agree that's what i said:


Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.








Again look at 1st century "the oldest" manuscripts ا ب ره ى م consistently spelled in 2nd chapter.
(no more comments on this end of discussion)

The name "Abraham ابرهم" spelled without " ya ي"  in chapter 2 in this manuscript :

...
Originally believed to date from the latter part of the eight century, the folio of MS Leiden Or. 14.545b has now been subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.[3]
...
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/arabe331.html


See manuscript and details here :

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424177#msg424177







Not about numerology, open separate topic/thread otherwise we?ll be all over the place.


The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/6/

15:6 And they say, "O you (to) whom has been sent down [on him] the Reminder / Al-dhikr, indeed, you (are) surely mad.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

15:9 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder/ Al-dhikr, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/

41:41 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder / Al-dhikr when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

41:42 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.







Not about ?human words? (your assumption) makes sense simply read what it is about.

74:31 ? ولىقول and let speaketh/ask الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?
كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed ?


Read in context and reflect: why is this number 19 revealed and what is its purpose.




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 10, 2019, 04:17:19 PM
Not man made arrangement, probably variations of an original revealed arrangement.
See  25:32 and 73:4  ---- the word  رتل

nothing to do with man-made chapter/verse numbers.

- Agree that's what i said:

then you agree your example clearly shows initials were man-made and inconsistent.

The name "Abraham ابرهم" spelled without " ya ي"  in chapter 2 in this manuscript :

not oldest makes no difference if spelled with/without ?ya? or written in English.

The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:

16:43, 21:7? فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder ?

21:105 ولقد and surely كتبنا decree we of فى in الزبور l-zabūri من from بعد after الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder

38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni ذى owner  الذكر l-dhik'ri//the reminder

54:23-25 كذبت denied they ثمود thamud ? االقى has cast الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder علىه on him من from بىننا among-st us ?

Read in context and reflect: why is this number 19 revealed and what is its purpose.

do not have illness asking why know it?s simple numerology nonsense.

peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 13, 2019, 12:30:04 AM
Salaam,


nothing to do with man-made chapter/verse numbers.

Peace Noon,

Chapter and verse arrangement revealed not left to human desire.

What is the meaning of:

... warattalnāhu tartīlan             ..warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

waqāla alladhīna kafarū lawlā nuzzila ʿalayhi l-qur'ānu jum'latan wāḥidatan kadhālika linuthabbita bihi fuādaka warattalnāhu tartīlan

وقال الذين كفروا لولا نزل عليه القران جمله وحده كذلك لنثبت به فوادك ورتلنه ترتيلا

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/73/4/default.htm

aw zid ʿalayhi warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

او زد عليه ورتل القران ترتيلا




then you agree your example clearly shows initials were man-made and inconsistent.

Not exactly, previously you said:

no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together ....
( red color: mine)


Gave an example of manuscript where some of the initials are as separated verses, and  said variants qiraa't of an original manuscript.


Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.



Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses:


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f88v
30:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.
(https://i.imgur.com/x0tdfIn.jpg)

---------------


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f91r
31:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.

(https://i.imgur.com/cRu4Jru.jpg)

---------------


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f117r
42:1 حم عسق Ha. Mim.   Ayn. Sin. Qaf.

(https://i.imgur.com/oLgBfkM.jpg)




not oldest makes no difference if spelled with/without “ya” or written in English.

See response here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424290#msg424290



16:43, 21:7… فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder …

21:105 ولقد and surely كتبنا decree we of فى in الزبور l-zabūri من from بعد after الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder

....

54:23-25 كذبت denied they ثمود thamud … االقى has cast الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder علىه on him من from بىننا among-st us …

These verses don't refer to the Quran and are irrelevant to explain 15:6-9 an 41:41-42

Cross-reference is one method to explain certain verses, context is also important.

16:43, 21:7 refers to previous revelations.

ahl al-diker/people of the reminder -- refering to ---> ahl-al-kitaab/people of the book / people of the scripture =  Jews and  Christians ---> to ask them that previous messengers where ordinary humans.

21:105 refers to previous revelations before Al-zabūr / Psalms?

54:23-31  Referring to the message sent to Thamud.





...
38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni ذى owner  الذكر l-dhik'ri//the reminder
...

Referring to the Quran i. e.

Quran --> has function --> to remind --- e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/41/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/50/45/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/17/default.htm
Same verse repeated in:54:22,  54:32,  54:40


Quran --> has  function --> to guide ---e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/185/default.htm
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/9/default.htm


Quran --> has  function --> to warn---e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/6/19/default.htm





The Question was, what is the Reminder/ Al-dhikr referring to in in 15:6-9 and 41:41-42.



The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/6/

15:6 And they say, "O you (to) whom has been sent down [on him] the Reminder / Al-dhikr, indeed, you (are) surely mad.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

15:9 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder/ Al-dhikr, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/

41:41 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder / Al-dhikr when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

41:42 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



do not have illness asking why know it’s simple numerology nonsense.
peace!

Seems irrational i.e. those who disbelieve count, to prove that the Quran is a numerical structured preserved book revealed by God. (74:31)

Contradiction: that those who disbelieve  --> believe the Quran is from God.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 13, 2019, 06:35:00 AM
Chapter and verse arrangement revealed not left to human desire.

What is the meaning of:

... warattalnāhu tartīlan             ..warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm


peace -- means revealed in stages which "people" coalesced into chapter/verse #'s, etc.

Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses:

yes most all of oldest manuscripts have "ALL" initialed verses together as single verse.

conclusion: even a few examples should suffice that it was "human made" no big deal.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 21, 2019, 03:11:45 AM
Salaam,


peace -- means revealed in stages which "people" coalesced into chapter/verse #'s, etc.

Peace Noon,


I think arrange, organize  رتل is a  better translation / explanation  for ... warattalnāhu tartīlan.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Qur'an not revealed unto him all at once? ( i.e. why is the Quran  revealed  in stages ) thus that We may strengthen your heart by it;  and We have arranged it in right order..

Translating ... warattalnāhu tartīlan. as " revealed in stages ",  would just be repeating what "those who disbelieve say",  and it doesn't add any information.

waqāla alladhīna kafarū lawlā nuzzila ʿalayhi l-qur'ānu jum'latan wāḥidatan kadhālika linuthabbita bihi fuādaka warattalnāhu tartīlan

وقال الذين كفروا لولا نزل عليه القران جمله وحده كذلك لنثبت به فوادك ورتلنه ترتيلا

----

http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=50

رتل      Ra Ta Lam

--------

If you observe the structure of the Quran you can clearly see that the arrangement in chapters and verses  was instructed and not left to human desire .

example:

- Chapter 2 has 286 verses,  why such a long chapter, compared to :

- Chapter 108 has only 3 verses:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
انا اعطينك الكوثر
فصل لربك وانحر
ان شانيك هو الابتر


- The legth of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter.
- Absence of the basmalah in chapter 9.
- Events repeated and scattered throughout the Quran :
       Moses and Pharaoh ,  Noah and his people , Adam and the angels/malaika, etc...


Human logic would expect:


- Chapters of approximately the same length.
- A chapter dedicated to each Prophet / Messenger, like chapter Joseph.
- A chapter about creation, Hereafter,...
- Historical order, etc...




yes most all of oldest manuscripts have "ALL" initialed verses together as single verse.

conclusion: even a few examples should suffice that it was "human made" no big deal.

Variation due to qiraa't, does not exclude that the current hafs manuscript was preserved and intended by God.
God challenges people to bring "something similar",  therefore arrangement in chapters and  verses and preservation by God and not human intervention.
What woud be the wisdom of revealing the Quran and leave the arrangement in chapters and verses to people's desire?


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/23/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/10/38/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/11/13/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/88/


------------------------------------


The Quran clearly indicates about a numerical structure:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/30/default.htm

Over it (are) nineteen.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm
And not We have made keepers (of) the Fire except Angels. And not We have made their number except (as) a trial for those who disbelieve - that may be certain those who were given the Scripture and may increase those who believe (in) faith, and not may doubt those who were given the Scripture and the believers, and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?" Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/
so as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers.

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/78/29/
And everything have We calculated / counted in writing / a book.

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/83/9/
A numerical / numbered / marked book.
-----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/83/20/
A numerical / numbered / marked book.

-----
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/89/3/
And the even and the odd.

-----------------------------------------------------

And preservation:



The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on November 13, 2019, 08:38:01 AM

Salaam,



The last word of each chapter of the Quran and prime numbers.

An interesting observation about the last word of each chapter of the 114 chapters of the Quran.

The total number of letters of these last words is 619

619 is the 114 th prime number.


 Chapter number - last word - number of letters

(https://i.imgur.com/Sc6Vs6W.png)


- List of prime numbers up to 120 th

(https://i.imgur.com/hwiYldl.png)


---


The last word of which the number of letters is a prime number ( i.e. 3, 5, 7 )

The sum of these letters is 285

285 = 19 x 15

(https://i.imgur.com/E9f90Oi.png)



Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on November 13, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
Salaam,



The last word of each chapter of the Quran and prime numbers.

An interesting observation about the last word of each chapter of the 114 chapters of the Quran.

The total number of letters of these last words is 619

619 is the 114 th prime number.


 Chapter number - last word - number of letters

(https://i.imgur.com/Sc6Vs6W.png)


- List of prime numbers up to 120 th

(https://i.imgur.com/hwiYldl.png)


---


The last word of which the number of letters is a prime number ( i.e. 3, 5, 7 )

The sum of these letters is 285

285 = 19 x 15

(https://i.imgur.com/E9f90Oi.png)



Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

That's super cool research...  I love numerical pattern.... When I read initially what RK brought I was so astonished... But   I never verified but searched anyone denied him with serious research... But only in ego....
Anyhow dude one of RKs research surprised me is tampering with verse 9:128-129...to date I believe in it coz of such innormous tally....
So you have taken for chapter 9 as Aladheem... So I hope it is 129th verse.... So still you found your research cool... Honestly good...  But will this work out if the last verse of chapter 9 is 127...i hope it is for both of your research... Isn't it?.. But confirm me...  I am not good at counting Arabic letters.... Simply don't like that job.... Lol...
If not deviate your and RK still stand... If not one of you is wrong
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Houriya on November 13, 2019, 01:59:10 PM
It's interesting, this calculation invalidates the theory of RK.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KymWryrMqy0&feature=share
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on November 13, 2019, 05:29:59 PM
It's interesting, this calculation invalidates the theory of RK.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KymWryrMqy0&feature=share

When you said this invalidates theory of RK means the research of Ibn you mean... If so, then don't judge by only one research of this nature the massive preciseness shown in tampering calculations... Did you study them... That's really beyond imagination.... If you accept this and to say RK and crew research invalidates then you have to deny the logic....
I don't say ibn research is wrong.. But his research results further exposes 19.. Who in fact trigured all this numerically constructed researches... So we better respect them.   Forgetting the inception may lead us astray...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 13, 2019, 11:38:08 PM
The total number of letters of these last words is 619

619 is the 114 th prime number.

peace, it depends on the definition of “prime” only divisible by 1 and itself.
if 1 is prime or not it means nothing still trial/error 18/19 failures 1/19 hits.

the chapters/order and the verse numbers are man-made
the initials were not separate verses in oldest manuscripts
e.g. using code/whatever tell which ch/vrs are these, why?

وىل woe ىومىذ day thereof للمكذبىن to those deniers

19 multiples meaningless thousands of digits billions of possibilities is most nonsensical stuff on the internet, many don’t realize what they're doing get stimulated each time they get a hit/fix like a drug; code if there is such, find consistent repeatable pattern; although first need correct counts, etc.

ا   'Alif   52,000+    (under investigation 1,000+ added compared to the oldest manuscripts)   
ل   lãm   38623      
ن   nün   27382      
م   mïm   27071      
ى   yã'   25870   (under investigation)    
و   waw   25572   (under investigation)   
ه   hã'   17306      
ر   rã'   12627      
ب   Bã'   11603      
ت   Tã'   10520      
ك   kãf   10497      
ع   'ain   9405   = 19 x 495 (so what?)   
ف   fã'   8747      
ق   qãf   7034      
س   sïn   6124      
د   dãl   5991      
ذ   dzãl   4932      
ح   Hã'   4364      
ج   JÏm   3317      
خ   khã'   2497      
ش   syïn   2124      
ص   ṣād   2072      
ض   dhãd   1686      
ز   zai   1599      
ث   Tsã'   1414      
ط   thã'   1273   = 19 x 67 (so what?)   
غ   ghain   1221      
ظ   zhã'   853      

The last word of which the number of letters is a prime number ( i.e. 3, 5, 7 )

The sum of these letters is 285

285 = 19 x 15

1,000+ alifs added 150+ years later not in oldest manuscripts.
they are easy to spot and the scribes of old would write thus:

25:77 لزما (4 letters) NOT لزاما (5 letters)

55:78 والاكرم (7 letters) NOT والاكرام (8 letters)

88:26 حسبهم (5 letters) NOT حسابهم (6 letters)

110:3 توبا (4 letters) NOT توابا (5 letters)


see examples from two of the oldest dated manuscripts ...
649-675, CE (95.4%) Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/107

translation: https://i.postimg.cc/mDz7dt4f/ch20v129-ch21v3.jpg

568-645 CE (95.4%) Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1?handschrift=158

(https://i.postimg.cc/NjVYQmQy/ch20v131-ch21v9.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Houriya on November 14, 2019, 12:08:45 AM

The shared video invalidates the theory of deleting the last 2 verses of chapter 9. Only God holds the interpretation of the quran.

I have nothing against code 19

When you said this invalidates theory of RK means the research of Ibn you mean... If so, then don't judge by only one research of this nature the massive preciseness shown in tampering calculations... Did you study them... That's really beyond imagination.... If you accept this and to say RK and crew research invalidates then you have to deny the logic....
I don't say ibn research is wrong.. But his research results further exposes 19.. Who in fact trigured all this numerically constructed researches... So we better respect them.   Forgetting the inception may lead us astray...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on November 17, 2019, 01:51:32 AM
Salaam,




That's super cool research...  I love numerical pattern.... When I read initially what RK brought I was so astonished... But   I never verified but searched anyone denied him with serious research... But only in ego....
Anyhow dude one of RKs research surprised me is tampering with verse 9:128-129...to date I believe in it coz of such innormous tally....
So you have taken for chapter 9 as Aladheem... So I hope it is 129th verse.... So still you found your research cool... Honestly good...  But will this work out if the last verse of chapter 9 is 127...i hope it is for both of your research... Isn't it?.. But confirm me...  I am not good at counting Arabic letters.... Simply don't like that job.... Lol...
If not deviate your and RK still stand... If not one of you is wrong

Peace jkhan,


- Not agree when for example, they reject verses (9:128-129) or add an initial letter ( an extra "Nun" in 68:1 ) to obtain a desired result, I think that this would contradict with the preservation of the Quran.

e.g. 

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/


75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/

- Last word of 9:127 ( يفقهون  ) has the same number of letters as 9:129 ( العظيم )

Most of the results that do not depend on 9:128-129 will be the same.
19 is only a part of the numerical structure of the Quran, 72:28 seems to indicate that everything in" the message" is calculated.

See more here for example:

https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/
http://www.discoveringislam.org/numerical_miracles_intro.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oc65915hKU
http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/miracle-of-19/
http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/numeric-miracle
http://www.alargam.com/
https://vb.tafsir.net/search.php?searchid=1719280&pp=
http://www.ahl-alquran.com/arabic/profile.php?main_id=2282
https://www.quranway.com/
http://quraaneajaz.blogspot.com/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on November 17, 2019, 02:40:16 AM
Salaam,




peace, it depends on the definition of “prime” only divisible by 1 and itself.
if 1 is prime or not it means nothing still trial/error 18/19 failures 1/19 hits.

the chapters/order and the verse numbers are man-made
the initials were not separate verses in oldest manuscripts
e.g. using code/whatever tell which ch/vrs are these, why?

وىل woe ىومىذ day thereof للمكذبىن to those deniers

19 multiples meaningless thousands of digits billions of possibilities is most nonsensical stuff on the internet, many don’t realize what they're doing get stimulated each time they get a hit/fix like a drug; code if there is such, find consistent repeatable pattern; although first need correct counts, etc.

ا   'Alif   52,000+    (under investigation 1,000+ added compared to the oldest manuscripts)   
ل   lãm   38623      
ن   nün   27382      
م   mïm   27071      
ى   yã'   25870   (under investigation)    
و   waw   25572   (under investigation)   
ه   hã'   17306      
ر   rã'   12627      
ب   Bã'   11603      
ت   Tã'   10520      
ك   kãf   10497      
ع   'ain   9405   = 19 x 495 (so what?)   
ف   fã'   8747      
ق   qãf   7034      
س   sïn   6124      
د   dãl   5991      
ذ   dzãl   4932      
ح   Hã'   4364      
ج   JÏm   3317      
خ   khã'   2497      
ش   syïn   2124      
ص   ṣād   2072      
ض   dhãd   1686      
ز   zai   1599      
ث   Tsã'   1414      
ط   thã'   1273   = 19 x 67 (so what?)   
غ   ghain   1221      
ظ   zhã'   853      


Peace Noon waalqalami,

No offence intended, but it seems that you repeat the same objections, suggest to reread my response to your objections here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0



About some of the spelling:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.70



   

1,000+ alifs added 150+ years later not in oldest manuscripts.
they are easy to spot and the scribes of old would write thus:

25:77 لزما (4 letters) NOT لزاما (5 letters)

55:78 والاكرم (7 letters) NOT والاكرام (8 letters)

88:26 حسبهم (5 letters) NOT حسابهم (6 letters)

110:3 توبا (4 letters) NOT توابا (5 letters)


see examples from two of the oldest dated manuscripts ...
649-675, CE (95.4%) Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/107

translation: https://i.postimg.cc/mDz7dt4f/ch20v129-ch21v3.jpg

568-645 CE (95.4%) Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1?handschrift=158

(https://i.postimg.cc/NjVYQmQy/ch20v131-ch21v9.jpg)



- As for "your oldest manuscript examples",  see for example in these same manuscripts the spelling of the word: bi3adaab بعذاب with alif in this manuscript:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8415207g/f165.item
568-645 CE (95.4%) Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
(https://i.imgur.com/EZCRVjU.png)


And: bi3adaab بعذ ب without alif in this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/107
649-675, CE (95.4%) Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165
(https://i.imgur.com/52mi8M0.png)

- So how to solve this issue ?
Different qiraa't / readings could be a possible explanation for the difference of the spelling of some words, like the "Hafs, Warsh, Qaloon,..."


------


- Another of your examples about the spelling of the word:  hisabouhum حسبهم
see also this manuscript that you said as being oldest manuscipt: hisabouhum حسابهم  with alif.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.msg419034#msg419034



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/52/handschrift/163/flip/1
(https://i.imgur.com/9DjY8yv.png)



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/69/handschrift/163/flip/1
(https://i.imgur.com/hXPQAaZ.png)



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/163/flip/1
(https://i.imgur.com/r2Vx6Lt.png)



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/26/vers/113/handschrift/163/flip/1
(https://i.imgur.com/i7kZeb3.png)



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/88/vers/26/handschrift/163/flip/1

(https://i.imgur.com/6gyG8Bw.png)


------


My understanding:
- I think that there is more evidence / indication for a numerical structure then its absence, even that it could be argued that some results are forced, exaggerated, coincidences or contain errors.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 17, 2019, 07:00:47 AM
Peace Noon waalqalami,

No offence intended, but it seems that you repeat the same objections, suggest to reread my response to your objections here:


- As for "your oldest manuscript examples",  see for example in these same manuscripts the spelling of the word: bi3adaab بعذاب with alif in this manuscript:


My understanding:
- I think that there is more evidence / indication for a numerical structure then its absence, even that it could be argued that some results are forced, exaggerated, coincidences or contain errors.

peace, in some old manuscripts numerous alifs were penned in later on many words; regardless if with/without alif – it is known that everything presented on nineteen is simple iterations; try something, if fail try something else (18/19 failures) until get a hit (1/19) then present call it miraculous. It’s statistically meaningless easily done with most any text, 9:128-129, or other numbers 7, 11, 29, etc.

If want to find consistent code/pattern perhaps study repeated verses/phrases e.g. most repeated phrase:
 ان indeed الله the god (205 occurrences/frequency)

Likewise, don’t come back with nineteen stuff after iterating flipping things unless you present all failed attempts – and if you get lucky e.g. first attempt at above will certainly arouse the infatuated (150 130305 = 19 x 7901595) then test next phrase or verse etc., for consistency.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on November 25, 2019, 02:10:17 AM
Salaam,




peace, in some old manuscripts numerous alifs were penned in later on many words; regardless if with/without alif – it is known that everything presented on nineteen is simple iterations; try something, if fail try something else (18/19 failures) until get a hit (1/19) then present call it miraculous. It’s statistically meaningless easily done with most any text, 9:128-129, or other numbers 7, 11, 29, etc.

If want to find consistent code/pattern perhaps study repeated verses/phrases e.g. most repeated phrase:
 ان indeed الله the god (205 occurrences/frequency)

Likewise, don’t come back with nineteen stuff after iterating flipping things unless you present all failed attempts – and if you get lucky e.g. first attempt at above will certainly arouse the infatuated (150 130305 = 19 x 7901595) then test next phrase or verse etc., for consistency.

Peace Noon waalqalami,



Of course obvious that when there is a large amount of data, some of it could be a multiple of whatever number, no issue about that,  but that does not exclude a structure / pattern, if this was the author' s intention.

It is also logical to differentiate between that what is due to coincidence ( 1/whatever number ) and that what is intended by the Author.

Not sure about a methode to find an intended pattern wthout failures.

Logique that failures are due to the fact that the patterns / structures are no known in advance.

I do not see the relevance about the failures, as they do not disprove a possible numerical structure

Failures do not change the facts, if there are.


-----


The issue / question  is about intended or not.
example:

- Are  the 114 capters of the Quran intended or it just happen to be 114 ?

- Was the basmalah chosen to have 19 letters or it just happen to be 19 ?

 - Why is there no Basmalah in chapter 9 and an extra Basmalah in chapter 27, and why this 19 chapter distance?

- Are the positions of the chapters (with initial letters) assinged or could they be in any other position?

- What is  74: 30-31 about ?

- etc ....





(https://i.imgur.com/Mr0ZoMB.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/ke5v1VP.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/KOW2JLa.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/IizHxxP.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/GCVkUnH.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/NGaB83x.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/CnjkQAL.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/iJzrydk.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/nGh9sgI.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/XpSW1O8.png)




Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.

http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan3/6.htm
http://www.alargam.com/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 25, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
peace ibn_a, no need to show/post nineteen stuff already seen it all.

It’s all intended by author i.e. the words written and no coincidence “hunting” multiples...
1/7, 1/11, 1/19, 1/29, etc. you’ll get probable hits most any text, walking down street, etc.

74:31 is about disease ... وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of

19 letters: 2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

6236 verses 1/19 ~328 expected to be multiple +/- 5% range -- why are you surprised?

Again, all trial/error 18/19 failures, 1/19 hits hunting multiples -- then present in colors.  :hail

1   [1:1]
2   [48:1]
3   [107:1]
4   [110:1]
5   [64:1]
6   [35:1]
7   [65:1]
8   [19:2]
9   [41:2]
10   [68:2]
11   [97:2]
12   [105:2]
13   [111:2]
14   [48:3]
15   [62:3]
16   [7:3]
17   [14:3]
18   [49:3]
19   [23:4]
20   [86:4]
21   [90:4]
22   [58:4]
23   [1:5]
24   [20:5]
25   [54:5]
26   [16:5]
27   [21:5]
28   [88:6]
29   [26:6]
30   [35:6]
31   [24:6]
32   [38:7]
33   [48:7]
34   [13:7]
35   [33:7]
36   [57:7]
37   [70:8]
38   [84:8]
39   [15:8]
40   [45:8]
41   [62:8]
42   [30:8]
43   [84:9]
44   [85:9]
45   [24:10]
46   [67:10]
47   [64:10]
48   [100:11]
49   [73:12]
50   [79:12]
51   [87:12]
52   [18:12]
53   [54:12]
54   [67:12]
55   [7:12]
56   [33:12]
57   [9:12]
58   [66:12]
59   [11:12]
60   [51:13]
61   [87:13]
62   [41:13]
63   [67:13]
64   [4:13]
65   [43:14]
66   [27:14]
67   [36:14]
68   [51:15]
69   [76:15]
70   [12:16]
71   [33:16]
72   [40:16]
73   [5:16]
74   [15:17]
75   [26:17]
76   [52:17]
77   [56:17]
78   [89:17]
79   [24:17]
80   [2:18]
81   [51:18]
82   [76:18]
83   [82:18]
84   [87:18]
85   [26:18]
86   [52:18]
87   [85:19]
88   [39:19]
89   [42:19]
90   [32:19]
91   [69:20]
92   [81:20]
93   [24:20]
94   [32:20]
95   [51:21]
96   [46:21]
97   [89:22]
98   [6:22]
99   [20:23]
100   [32:23]
101   [9:23]
102   [22:23]
103   [4:23]
104   [74:24]
105   [19:24]
106   [26:24]
107   [29:24]
108   [8:24]
109   [29:25]
110   [6:25]
111   [23:26]
112   [79:26]
113   [31:26]
114   [19:26]
115   [8:26]
116   [24:26]
117   [44:27]
118   [89:27]
119   [31:27]
120   [16:27]
121   [57:27]
122   [83:28]
123   [19:28]
124   [67:28]
125   [35:28]
126   [57:28]
127   [13:29]
128   [19:29]
129   [31:29]
130   [26:30]
131   [83:30]
132   [31:30]
133   [6:30]
134   [7:30]
135   [46:30]
136   [17:31]
137   [68:32]
138   [39:32]
139   [83:33]
140   [11:33]
141   [15:33]
142   [43:33]
143   [51:34]
144   [38:34]
145   [54:34]
146   [53:35]
147   [69:35]
148   [79:35]
149   [12:35]
150   [37:35]
151   [47:35]
152   [45:35]
153   [6:35]
154   [20:36]
155   [23:36]
156   [17:36]
157   [39:36]
158   [20:37]
159   [38:37]
160   [29:37]
161   [43:37]
162   [18:37]
163   [30:37]
164   [78:38]
165   [23:39]
166   [52:39]
167   [39:39]
168   [37:40]
169   [80:40]
170   [13:40]
171   [17:40]
172   [36:40]
173   [53:41]
174   [77:41]
175   [14:41]
176   [41:41]
177   [55:41]
178   [34:41]
179   [39:41]
180   [80:42]
181   [68:42]
182   [3:42]
183   [14:42]
184   [20:43]
185   [77:44]
186   [30:44]
187   [9:44]
188   [15:45]
189   [37:45]
190   [79:45]
191   [25:45]
192   [27:45]
193   [55:46]
194   [23:46]
195   [53:47]
196   [54:47]
197   [15:47]
198   [12:47]
199   [29:49]
200   [17:50]
201   [44:50]
202   [69:50]
203   [34:50]
204   [44:51]
205   [18:51]
206   [7:51]
207   [37:52]
208   [5:52]
209   [34:53]
210   [36:53]
211   [23:54]
212   [26:54]
213   [40:54]
214   [51:54]
215   [16:54]
216   [20:54]
217   [27:54]
218   [34:54]
219   [38:55]
220   [8:55]
221   [24:55]
222   [37:56]
223   [29:56]
224   [22:56]
225   [3:57]
226   [6:57]
227   [4:57]
228   [22:58]
229   [53:59]
230   [37:60]
231   [9:60]
232   [38:62]
233   [21:63]
234   [26:63]
235   [8:63]
236   [20:65]
237   [20:67]
238   [4:68]
239   [8:68]
240   [33:68]
241   [17:68]
242   [40:69]
243   [7:69]
244   [28:71]
245   [6:72]
246   [15:73]
247   [18:73]
248   [27:73]
249   [8:73]
250   [3:73]
251   [37:74]
252   [7:74]
253   [9:74]
254   [2:75]
255   [8:75]
256   [9:76]
257   [10:76]
258   [3:77]
259   [20:79]
260   [26:79]
261   [28:79]
262   [37:80]
263   [37:81]
264   [17:82]
265   [15:83]
266   [20:83]
267   [56:83]
268   [16:83]
269   [4:86]
270   [56:87]
271   [26:88]
272   [56:88]
273   [21:88]
274   [12:89]
275   [11:89]
276   [6:91]
277   [15:92]
278   [16:95]
279   [26:96]
280   [37:96]
281   [7:98]
282   [26:99]
283   [12:99]
284   [21:101]
285   [4:101]
286   [12:102]
287   [16:102]
288   [37:103]
289   [10:105]
290   [2:107]
291   [5:108]
292   [20:110]
293   [37:111]
294   [26:114]
295   [16:117]
296   [37:121]
297   [3:122]
298   [37:123]
299   [20:126]
300   [37:128]
301   [2:128]
302   [37:131]
303   [37:132]
304   [4:132]
305   [6:137]
306   [6:138]
307   [37:141]
308   [37:142]
309   [26:154]
310   [26:157]
311   [37:160]
312   [2:160]
313   [6:162]
314   [4:164]
315   [2:166]
316   [3:173]
317   [2:180]
318   [3:181]
319   [26:188]
320   [2:190]
321   [3:191]
322   [26:192]
323   [3:200]
324   [26:212]
325   [26:214]
326   [2:230]
327   [2:250]
328   [2:257]
329   [2:273]

A few above may be off due to 1000+ alif's added to script 100+ years later, different verse numbering and nothing to do with Warsh / Hafs since they were not born at time some old manuscripts were dated. Hopefully you understand it's all statistically meaningless and expected.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on November 26, 2019, 07:18:58 AM
Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away  with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who  checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.
 
Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on November 26, 2019, 08:27:40 AM
Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away  with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who  checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.
 
Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace...

I agree with you....  Denial of numerically structured pattern in quran is total waste of their effort.... They will soon know what they denied... Honestly... In my case I personally shed tears when I knew about numerical pattern and its preciseness and it definitely strengthened my belief out of nowhere and led me to loads of research within Quran with confidence... It made me speak for QURAN among non Muslim with confidence that God is there...
Anyhow if anyone not accept it.. Let it be.. It is pointless to make them board in your ship...

But... I wonder why they deny it... God placed chapters with meaningless letters... What guidance it gives us?  If verses are not meant for numbering why in chapter 42 letters are written as two verses...  HA' Meem then second verse 'Ain Seen Qaf '... Why not write as one verse like chapter 19.. Why two separate verses... Has it written in any old version of Quran together?  If not why separate? Ponder pls...
Further.... In chapter 19 it is written with almost 5 letters.. Why not take it as a meaningful verse rather than a set of letters..  Coz you don't find meaning for it....
If alifs are added then how do you know which book is quran .... Don't you try to say no one has the preserved quran....
How do you know alifs are added or removed alifs are rightly replaced... I am addressing this to anyone who claim so...
Which oldest copy is taken as quran now...  Is Quran a piece of joke and still you follow...
Reality of the Quran is manifested with numerical pattern...  That's far from denial... Attempting is waste of time... What makes you believe in this modern world while still neglect numerical pattern in it... What makes you think that QURAN is in fact a book from god... What makes you accept whatever you accepted is the right copy?
Absolutely nonsensical the approach....
I know anyone who deny numerical pattern in quran won't like what I wrote above... But their claim is meaningless....
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on November 26, 2019, 10:31:44 AM
I have a curious question regarding the extra alif you guys are talking about

How do we know which one is correct?

For example
verse 2:2
                   
ذٰلِكَ الكِتٰبُ لا رَيبَ فيهِ هُدًى لِلمُتَّقينَ

The word الكِتٰبُ  is found in written with extra alif in some places as الْكِتَابُ

http://quranix.org/2#2

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

How do we know which one is correct spelling. What was the reason for adding extra alif to this word? Though it doesn't change the meaning of the word but my question is what was the need to add extra alif. Was it required to facilitate  the pronunciation/vocalization/tone of the word?

Also where is the preserved tablet/master copy of the Quran to cross check? Is it the oldest copy found?

15:9 We, indeed We, it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
85:21 No,it is a glorious Qur'an.
85:22 In a tablet, preserved.


peace


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on November 26, 2019, 11:19:31 AM
Peace All.

We have to ignore/ or not be able to explain  many verses in Qoran if it was not for the mathematical structure of the book, verses like:

[Quran 10:20] They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
Or are we still waiting? As far as I know the waiting is over ,the structure has appeared in this Mathematical age!
46:10
Say, "What if it is from God and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon,* and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely...
قُل أَرَءَيتُم إِن كانَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَكَفَرتُم بِهِ وَشَهِدَ شاهِدٌ مِن بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ عَلىٰ مِثلِهِ فَـٔامَنَ وَاستَكبَرتُم إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَهدِى القَومَ الظّٰلِمينَ
46:11
وَقالَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا لَو كانَ خَيرًا ما سَبَقونا إِلَيهِ وَإِذ لَم يَهتَدوا بِهِ فَسَيَقولونَ هٰذا إِفكٌ قَديمٌ

Unless someone explains who the witness of Beni Israel is and what was similar to Qoran? As far as I know it can only be Rabbi Judah the Pious-11th Century?

Or verses like all the initials in the 29 surahs that have no meaning?
Or the spelling of certain words and the usage of different words, like Quawmu Lot in some and Ikhwanu Lot in other verses....etc...

For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .

I am sorry ,I do not see coincidences but rather deliberate spelling of words to fit the structure.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 26, 2019, 11:58:55 AM
I have a curious question regarding the extra alif you guys are talking about

How do we know which one is correct?

For example
verse 2:2
                   
ذٰلِكَ الكِتٰبُ لا رَيبَ فيهِ هُدًى لِلمُتَّقينَ

The word الكِتٰبُ  is found in written with extra alif in some places as الْكِتَابُ

http://quranix.org/2#2

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

How do we know which one is correct spelling. What was the reason for adding extra alif to this word? Though it doesn't change the meaning of the word but my question is what was the need to add extra alif. Was it required to facilitate  the pronunciation/vocalization/tone of the word?

peace, old scribes avoided writing alif especially in middle of words; unnecessary use context meaning is clear.

15:9 We, indeed We, it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

cross reference the phrase it does not say "preserve it"

12:12/12:63/15:9 ... وانا wa-inna له lahu لحفظون lahafizuna

85:21 No,it is a glorious Qur'an.
85:22 In a tablet, preserved.

Not about old manuscript on sheep skin or golden engraved disk or thumb flash drive.

But... I wonder why they deny it... God placed chapters with meaningless letters... What guidance it gives us?  If verses are not meant for numbering why in chapter 42 letters are written as two verses...  HA' Meem then second verse 'Ain Seen Qaf '... Why not write as one verse like chapter 19.. Why two separate verses... Has it written in any old version of Quran together?  If not why separate?

It's stated clearly 74:31 infatuation/counting disease evident they see it everywhere; house numbers, etc. everything presented on nineteen is simple flipping stuff around until they find a multiple 1/19 then present in color to the naive and to answer question verses/initials rearrangement was done 150+ years later; oldest manuscripts together as a single verse.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=163

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=157

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=37

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=56

Codex Parisino-Petropolitanus: https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=4322

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwYRyTYn/ch42v0-v14.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on November 26, 2019, 04:47:55 PM
These numerically structured pattern was very recently discovered and that time verses were stuck as it is without knowing numerical pattern...they found numerical pattern with existing verses... Apart from tampering...  Who placed it separate....  I don't believe unless I see the true copy of what prophet wrote. .just they say old copy and we to trust... But what is written and what is proven within trustable distance...

Same way... Chapter 68 is diffent.. nun is placed and the meaningful verse is together... Not nun separate... Who did this and how numerical pattern came true...

Dear NWQ... You and me don't know how prophet wrote the Quran and how copies were replicated.... I strongly believe that numerical phenomena only serve it to authenticate unseen book of its original book.... 

You didn't reply why these unnecessary letters are placed?  Is it for decoration or is it fill up the blank... Or is it to confuse?  Or the author is mentally sick to place them?  Book says guidance... May I know what guidance you learned from those verses  which has no Arabic meaning other than just letters...  Is the author fooling us?
Preserved definitely with numerical pattern which they didn't know... But modern era.... Coz they had the right book.. We don't have the exact one.. So we have found the right one... That's what RK and crew did  and still people are bringing innumerate phenomena...
According to your understanding... These letters are nothing even numerical pattern... Fine.. Hope you will study one  day....
Or else prove me the book you read is from God.... Can you...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on November 26, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Look brothers and sisters who are against numerical pattern for whatever the reasons of you.... but it seems you have worked out a lot in numerical pattern.. that's clear..

i understood the numerical pattern when i noticed chapter one is placed atop... then then the chapter 2 which start with 'Alif Lam Mim' and then God says this is a book.... That's so strange... That particular verse this is a book could have atop of everything but it started after chapter 1 and after Alif lam mim...
Giving nothing of a verse before saying 'This is a book in which no contradiction'.... I knew that numerical pattern is with intention....

May allah guide us with what is absolutely right soon...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on November 27, 2019, 01:06:40 AM
peace, old scribes avoided writing alif especially in middle of words; unnecessary use context meaning is clear.



Peace

So Old scribes removed it and modern scribes put it back? If it was unnecessary why was it there in the first place?


cross reference the phrase it does not say "preserve it"

12:12/12:63/15:9 ... وانا wa-inna له lahu لحفظون lahafizuna


Not sure what you mean by that. preserve /guard conveys the same meaning here.


Not about old manuscript on sheep skin or golden engraved disk or thumb flash drive.



So what is the preserved tablet?
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on November 27, 2019, 01:23:33 AM

74:31 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know the soldiers of your Lord except He; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

There are two groups both of whom claim to believe in the Quran being of divine origin

One group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters  and seeing this fitna/trial of the rejecters their faith increases and followings happens

so that those [/color]who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.

The second group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters because of the mathematical structure of the Quran and their faith increases observing the mathematical miracle or the Quran not observing the fitna/trial of the rejecters.

Now the question is who  are the rejecters?

As per the same chapter of the Quran they are the ones who doubt/reject the divine origin of the Quran and says it is merely saying of a human being.

74:24 So he said: "This is nothing except the magic of old."
74:25 "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."

So this is the 3rd group who categorically reject Quran and also any miracle claimed for Quran

Now back to the first two groups(both of which accepts the divine origin of the Quran)

One of them will be saying along with the rejecters "What did God mean with an example such as this?"

and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.


Some said since before understanding this example we need to ask the question "What did God mean with an example such as this?" we should not even try to interpret or understand this example/verse

Same Queston can be found in the following verse

2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does God intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

Does God forbids us to ponder over the examples ?

The following verse says every example should be pondered over.
39:27 And We have put forth for the people in this Qur'an from every example, that they may take heed.

So should we ponder over  verse 74:31 ?

--How "their number/count"  becomes fitna/test for the people who have rejected the divine orign of Quran?
--Does observing fitna/test for rejecter that increases the faith of the believers or observation related to  "their number/count" increases the faith ?

Just as an example:

I just observed the word "their number"/عِدَّتَهُمْ  is the 9th word of the verse 74:31. 74+31+9=114=19x6 .

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9) (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9))

However I also tried the followings which are  not multiple of 19

74319 not a multiple of 19
7+4+3+1+9=24 not a multiple of 19

So is it a fitna/test for me because I am trying to discover a pattern with number 19 divisible? Am I rejecting the divine origin of Quran?

Has anyone's faith increased by observing this  fitna?

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on November 27, 2019, 02:09:00 PM
So Old scribes removed it and modern scribes put it back? If it was unnecessary why was it there in the first place?

peace -- due to evolving script, see small sample below 1,000+ alifs were added later.

modern 150+ yrs old
ابكرا      ابكارا      أَبْكَارًا
ابنىكم      ابناىكم      أَبْنَآئِكُمُ
ابنىهن      ابناىهن      أَبْنَآئِهِنَّ
اتبع      اتباع      ٱتِّبَاعَ
اتحجوننا       اتحاجوننا      أَتُحَآجُّونَنَا
اتوصوا       اتواصوا      أَتَوَاصَوْا۟
اثقلتم       اثاقلتم      ٱثَّاقَلْتُمْ
اثقلكم       اثقالكم      أَثْقَالَكُمْ
اثقلها       اثقالها      أَثْقَالَهَا
اثقلهم      اثقالهم      أَثْقَالَهُمْ
اثما       اثاما      أَثَامًا
اثنن      اثنان      ٱثْنَانِ
اجرمى      اجرامى      إِجْرَامِى
اجسمهم      اجسامهم      أَجْسَامُهُمْ
احبرهم      احبارهم      أَحْبَارَهُمْ
احقبا      احقابا      أَحْقَابًا
احىكم       احىاكم      أَحْيَاكُمْ
احىها       احىاها      أَحْيَاهَا
اخبركم      اخباركم      أَخْبَارِكُمْ
اخبرها      اخبارها      أَخْبَارَهَا
اخدن       اخدان      أَخْدَانٍ
اخرج      اخراج      إِخْرَاجٍ
اخرجا      اخراجا      إِخْرَاجًا
اخرجكم      اخراجكم      إِخْرَاجِكُمْ
اخرجهم      اخراجهم      إِخْرَاجُهُمْ
اخطنا       اخطانا      أَخْطَأْنَا
اخف      اخاف      أَخَافُ
اخلفكم       اخالفكم      أُخَالِفَكُمْ
ادبركم      ادباركم      أَدْبَارِكُمْ
ادبرها      ادبارها      أَدْبَارِهَآ
ادركوا      اداركوا      ٱدَّارَكُوا۟
ادعىىهم      ادعىاىهم      أَدْعِيَآئِهِمْ
اذعوا      اذاعوا      أَذَاعُوا۟
اذقهم       اذاقهم      أَذَاقَهُم
ارببا      اربابا      أَرْبَابًا
ارتبوا      ارتابوا      ٱرْتَابُوٓا۟
ارحم      ارحام      أَرْحَامُ
ارحمكم      ارحامكم      أَرْحَامُكُمْ
ارحمهن      ارحامهن      أَرْحَامِهِنَّ
اردوا      ارادوا      أَرَادُوا۟
ارذلنا       اراذلنا      أَرَاذِلُنَا
ازددوا      ازدادوا      ٱزْدَادُوا۟
ازغ       ازاغ      أَزَاغَ
اسبطا       اسباطا      أَسْبَاطًا
استبدل       استبدال      ٱسْتِبْدَالَ
استجبوا      استجابوا      ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟
استجرك      استجارك      ٱسْتَجَارَكَ
استطع      استطاع      ٱسْتَطَاعَ
استكبرا       استكبارا      ٱسْتِكْبَارًا
استكنوا       استكانوا      ٱسْتَكَانُوا۟
اسررا      اسرارا      إِسْرَارًا
اسررهم      اسرارهم      إِسْرَارَهُمْ
اسرفا      اسرافا      إِسْرَافًا
اسفرنا      اسفارنا      أَسْفَارِنَا
اسور      اساور      أَسَاوِرَ
اشتتا      اشتاتا      أَشْتَاتًا
اشرطها      اشراطها      أَشْرَاطُهَا
اشمزت       اشمازت      ٱشْمَأَزَّتْ
اشىعكم       اشىاعكم      أَشْيَاعَكُمْ
اصنم      اصنام      أَصْنَامٍ
اصنما      اصناما      أَصْنَامًا
اصوفها      اصوافها      أَصْوَافِهَا
اضعفا      اضعافا      أَضْعَافًا
اضعوا       اضاعوا      أَضَاعُوا۟
اضلنا       اضلانا      أَضَلَّانَا
اطرفها       اطرافها      أَطْرَافِهَا
اطعم      اطعام      إِطْعَامُ
اطمن      اطمان      ٱطْمَأَنَّ
اطمننتم      اطماننتم      ٱطْمَأْنَنتُمْ
اطورا       اطوارا      أَطْوَارًا
اعجز       اعجاز      أَعْجَازُ
اعرضا      اعراضا      إِعْرَاضًا
اعرضهم      اعراضهم      إِعْرَاضُهُمْ
اعقبنا      اعقابنا      أَعْقَابِنَا
اعملا      اعمالا      أَعْمَٰلًا
اعملهم      اعمالهم      أَعْمَٰلَهُمْ
اعنب      اعناب      أَعْنَابٍ
اعنق       اعناق      أَعْنَاقِ
افبعذبنا      افبعذابنا      أَفَبِعَذَابِنَا
افطل       افطال      أَفَطَالَ
افنن      افنان      أَفْنَانٍ
افوجا      افواجا      أَفْوَاجًا
اقدمكم      اقدامكم      أَقْدَامَكُمْ
اقدمنا      اقدامنا      أَقْدَامَنَا
اقطرها      اقطارها      أَقْطَارِهَا
اقمتكم      اقامتكم      إِقَامَتِكُمْ
اقموا      اقاموا      أَقَامُوا۟
اكتلوا       اكتالوا      ٱكْتَالُوا۟
اكره      اكراه      إِكْرَاهَ
اكفركم      اكفاركم      أَكُفَّارُكُمْ
اكلون       اكالون      أَكَّٰلُونَ
الابرر       الابرار      ٱلْأَبْرَارَ
الاجدث       الاجداث      ٱلْأَجْدَاثِ
الاحبر      الاحبار      ٱلْأَحْبَارِ
الاحدىث      الاحادىث      ٱلْأَحَادِيثِ
الاحزب      الاحزاب      ٱلْأَحْزَابَ
الاحزب      الاحزاب      ٱلْأَحْزَابُ
الاحمل       الاحمال      ٱلْأَحْمَالِ
الاخىر      الاخىار      ٱلْأَخْيَارِ
الاذقن       الاذقان      ٱلْأَذْقَانِ
الارحم      الارحام      ٱلْأَرْحَامُ
الارىك       الاراىك      ٱلْأَرَآئِكِ
الاسوق      الاسواق      ٱلْأَسْوَاقِ
بقربن      بقربان      بِقُرْبَانٍ
ذرعا      ذراعا      ذِرَاعًا
مقدره      مقداره      مِقْدَارُهُۥ

One group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters 

no, it does not say one group who believes rather those into numerology -- period.

66:6 ... نارا fire of وقودها and fuel its الناس the people والحجره and the stone علىها over her ملىكه malaikatun (controllers/angels)

74:27 وما and what ادرك makes know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her تسعه nonet عشر ten [i.e. group of (19) masculine entities]
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه malaikatan (controllers/angels)
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs (# of angels over abyss) الا except فتنه fitnatan للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...

I just observed the word "their number"/عِدَّتَهُمْ  is the 9th word of the verse 74:31. 74+31+9=114=19x6 .

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9) (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9))

However I also tried the followings which are  not multiple of 19

74319 not a multiple of 19
7+4+3+1+9=24 not a multiple of 19

So is it a fitna/test for me because I am trying to discover a pattern with number 19 divisible? Am I rejecting the divine origin of Quran?

Has anyone's faith increased by observing this  fitna?

yes -- simple iterations hide 95% failures show 5% of hits similar nonsense with 9:128-129 or code 29 easily done.
yes -- believers back then and now don't need non-existent code can easily see their mental disorder with number.

It's a total waste of time -- peace!

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on November 29, 2019, 02:39:21 AM
peace -- due to evolving script, see small sample below 1,000+ alifs were added later.

Peace-- My question is does this addition of alif has anything to do with the way those words are recited?

yes -- simple iterations hide 95% failures show 5% of hits similar nonsense with 9:128-129 or code 29 easily done.
yes -- believers back then and now don't need non-existent code can easily see their mental disorder with number.

It's a total waste of time -- peace!

Good to know my fitna is increasing your faith.

So before this fitna was discovered the believers back then missed out on their chance to increase their faith.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 01, 2019, 10:54:54 PM
Peace Everyone...

This book is meant mainly for the people of the Prophet and whoever surrounded in those area and specially to those who speak Arabic as a mercy and guidance…
But this particular book addresses to whomever who reads it for guidance…
When we notice it with verses like “when the End time falls upon people”.. … These type of typical verses only can be meaningful to those who live during that period to witness it and say that what is written in the book is true.. So this book in fact address everyone on common matters… for sure..
So, such a book needs its immaculate quality… God says in 2:2 .. this is a book which has no doubt/contradiction…. So, before having no doubt or contradiction in the book, the book itself should be the book which was revealed… I mean, the book should be there first in its own identity, then only we can find whether contradiction or doubts are there… if the book is altered by human inclination then definitely there is contradiction coz that is not the book which is in the main tablet…So which book we have to resort … just old torn, blemished looking pieces of paper claiming these are the oldest available quran… based on what we have to trust it…or we trust the book itself claiming (4:82) “Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction”
Whatever it is… if altered by anyone even a letter then if we think it is the book then we should find contradiction in it coz it is not the book of God in its purity… So how do we find out as a generation living very remote from the time of the book’s revelation? Options… can we depend on some remaining old copies which are kept in museums which we have no idea who wrote it … How do we make sure the quran which Mohamed wrote were the same as of what is kept in museum…Mohamed was never given the guardianship of quran and no one to be exact… Messenger’s job was to deliver the messages and not to preserve the messages.. isn’t it?… So,.. in what form? First of all as it is being revealed and in my understanding verbally… 2:285 “ …. And they say, "We hear and we obey ..”  18:1 “ Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness, straight to warn  . ….. … “
So, how the letters are written and how the verses are placed is far from reality for them… coz they hear they obey…hardly would see what is written in the book… since they believed in God and His messenger to be true.. so they trusted the messenger… We are not in such position… coz we don’t have the messenger to hear and obey..
But preserving part God took the responsibility not the messenger… 15:9 “Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it .”  ……. If God promised then it has to be something peculiar and phenomenon.. How?
Is guarding while Mohamed was alive? NO..God promised to GUARD what He revealed… why guard something? Especially a revealed statements? How He has guarded? Guarding for little time or forever … So adding and removing alifs are the action of people… So, does it mean the guarding? Burning the book… or destroying CDs of quran or killing the one who memorized… guarding not take place… Some claim some old quran are different to the one we have.. so clearly different quran from time to time.…. Guarding didn’t take place…Guarding a physical book is ridiculous….. What actually guarding by God? And Guarding for whom? For what purpose? Who will benefit? Not the people of Muhamed for sure…
If God has not guarded the book, does it mean God failed in His promise? God never fails in His promise… This strange quran is only guides those who are pure… and God guides whom He wills… So… These perfect verses suites accordingly…

56:77-79 “ it is surely a noble Quran,  in a hidden Book, none but the purified shall touch”

This amazing set of verses clarifies my mind how pure Quran is within the reach of believers.. Here ‘Touch’ doesn’t mean a physical touch in my view… it’s a kind of grasp.. reaching to the true Noble Quran which is hidden and only be reachable by purified ones….Purified ones will understand which is the exact book of God… for that God has preserved it with extraordinary numerical pattern which only purified ones will grasp it….
Otherwise no one will ever be able to say which book is in fact quran…even a letter added cannot be the quran and believing in it is waste of time…
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on December 04, 2019, 01:19:50 AM
Salaam,



peace ibn_a, no need to show/post nineteen stuff already seen it all.
...

Peace Noon waalqalami,

The post was not specifically to you.



...

It’s all intended by author i.e. the words written and no coincidence “hunting” multiples...
1/7, 1/11, 1/19, 1/29, etc. you’ll get probable hits most any text, walking down street, etc.

...

19 letters: 2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

6236 verses 1/19 ~328 expected to be multiple +/- 5% range -- why are you surprised?

Again, all trial/error 18/19 failures, 1/19 hits hunting multiples -- then present in colors.  :hail

1   [1:1]
2   [48:1]
3   [107:1]
...
327   [2:250]
328   [2:257]
329   [2:273]

A few above may be off due to 1000+ alif's added to script 100+ years later, different verse numbering and nothing to do with Warsh / Hafs since they were not born at time some old manuscripts were dated. Hopefully you understand it's all statistically meaningless and expected.

Not sure what this has to do with the 19 letters of the Basmalah and the position of the 114 chapters in the Quran or the missing Basmalah,...

My post was not about how many random verses in the Quran have 19 letters, and of course why woulden't there be in the Quran verses consisting of 19 letters or whatever number of letters.

As for the " +/- 5% range, surprised and expected issue ", I do not see the relevance about it, as it is what I said previously i.e.



Peace Noon waalqalami,


Of course obvious that when there is a large amount of data, some of it could be a multiple of whatever number, no issue about that,  but that does not exclude a structure / pattern, if this was the author' s intention.

It is also logical to differentiate between that what is due to coincidence ( 1/whatever number ) and that what is intended by the Author.

Not sure about a methode to find an intended pattern wthout failures.

Logique that failures are due to the fact that the patterns / structures are no known in advance.

I do not see the relevance about the failures, as they do not disprove a possible numerical structure

Failures do not change the facts, if there are.


-----


The issue / question  is about intended or not.
example:

- Are  the 114 capters of the Quran intended or it just happen to be 114 ?

- Was the basmalah chosen to have 19 letters or it just happen to be 19 ?

 - Why is there no Basmalah in chapter 9 and an extra Basmalah in chapter 27, and why this 19 chapter distance?

- Are the positions of the chapters (with initial letters) assinged or could they be in any other position?

- What is  74: 30-31 about ?

- etc ....


....




...
74:31 is about disease ... وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of
...


If you want your explanation to make sense and considered as objective, you have also to explain why it is a "fitna" for those who disbelieve/reject
and what is the purpose of those who disbelieve/reject  by counting,
and what exactly do they disbelive in and /or reject.

And on the purpose for other groups of people to  which 74:31 refers to.
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm

And the reason why this number is mentioned.
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 04, 2019, 08:47:23 PM
Peace-- My question is does this addition of alif has anything to do with the way those words are recited?

peace -- no difference adding alif in middle of words – read in context use cross-reference for meaning.
many words spelled same different meaning/pronunciation distinguished today using fatha, kasra, etc.

للذكر lildhakari/to the male
للذكر lildhikri/to the remembrance

ورق waraqi/leaf
بورقكم biwariqikum/with silver coin yours -- i.e. measured vs commodity فضه fiddatin/silver

So before this fitna was discovered the believers back then missed out on their chance to increase their faith.

today’s infatuation with 19 numerology or simple multiple hunting has nothing to do with 74:30-31
those who reject back then questioned: 74:30 علىها over her (it) تسعه nonet عشر ten (10) [i.e. group of 19]

likewise, there is no “wa/and” after فتنه fitnatan للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of

لىستىقن liyastayqina/surely are convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
وىزدد wayazdada/and increased الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
ولا and not ىرتب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and those believing

 ولىقول and surely sayeth الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of (74:30 why 19 guards over hell?)
 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your (i.e. number of angels over hell) الا except هو he

Not sure what this has to do with the 19 letters of the Basmalah and the position of the 114 chapters

nothing – everything posted is irrelevant, why freak out over multiples?
9:128-129 one can hunt multiples as well, why not freak out at below?

91289129 = 19 x 4804691
9 + 128 + 129 = 266 (14 x 19!)

total letters 60 + 54 = 114 (6 x 19!)

19th word is Allah!
76th letter (76 = 19 x 4) is alif in Allah!

# of letters from beginning of verse to including Allah = 19!
9:129 فان so if تولوا turn they of فقل so say حسبى suffices me الله the god

19th word Allah to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 301 1305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 = 19 x …!

19th word Allah followed by word # to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 19 301 20 1305 21 1301 22 56 23 7030105 24 40062030400 25 656 26 2002 27 13070200300 28 130709001040 29 = 19 x...!

http://www.javascripter.net/math/calculators/100digitbigintcalculator.htm
(To calculate the remainder of division, use the mod button.)

peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on December 07, 2019, 01:19:23 AM
Salaam,



Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away  with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who  checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.
 
Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic,


I think that some results could be argued, but others are obvious, and cannot reasonably explained as coincidence, that is why some say for example that the Quran has 113 chapters, assembling chapter 8 and chapter 9 in one chapter, that the Basmalah has from 20 to 23 letters, that there is an extra number 14 in 2:234, that the arrangement of chapters and verses is not part of revelation, assign a meaningless purpose for 74:30-31,  etc ....

I think that the fact that the Quran mentions number 19  and explains its logical purpose in 74:30-31, and about other numbers in 72:28 and the 114 chapters, the 19 letters of the Basmalah, the absence of the Basmalah in chapter 9 and the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, the total numbers mentioned in the Quran, the position and length of the chapters, the initial letters, some word counts and  position , ... should suffice for an objective observer to reflect about a possible numerical structure in the Quran.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 07, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Peace ibn_a
When GOD said : "It is we who will collect/gather it as a Qoran",many do not believe GOD? Who else do they think  collected this Qoran in the form we have today? i.e 114 surahs!!!!!

 WHY are there 114 surahs in the Qoran ? although the fact that 114 is a multiple of 19, is by itself significant, the answer that this is the reason for 114 surahs is not sufficient enough since there are other multiples of 19, say 38, 57, 76, 95, 133?etc. which could have served the same function as well.
 The answer to the question is found in surah 75:17

[Qoran 75:17] It is we who will collect it into Qoran.

[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

Here God says that He (using angelic forces) is responsible for the collecting of all the verses of the Qoran into what is now called the Qoran . The Arabic verb here for collecting or gathering is (jama?s)  and the nonoun corresponding to is is (Jami?u)  . God is called in the Quran Jami?u .. at least twice in the Qoran, 3:9 and 4:140

[3:9] "Our Lord, You will surely gather .. the people on a day that is inevitable. GOD never breaks a promise."

[4:140] He has instructed you in the scripture that: if you hear GOD's revelations being mocked and ridiculed, you shall not sit with them, unless they delve into another subject. Otherwise, you will be as guilty as they are. GOD will gather the hypocrites . and the disbelievers together in Hell.


While surahs 3:9 says that God is the Gatherer of mankind for the day of Judgment and Surah 4:140 says that He is the Gatherer of all those destined for the Doom, , Surah 75:17 asserts that He is also the Gatherer (Collector) of the revelations of the Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

As we know , there is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will the Collector/gatherer of the Qoran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

Thus Jami?u .. totals 114, the number of surahs in the Qoran.

Besides being the Author of the Qoran, He is responsible for its gathering and collection together. This explains the relationship between God?s special name Al-Jami?u and the number of surahs in the Qoran. God Himself gives the clue in 75:17.

This is all coincidence to those who deny , for reasons unknown??? Because they claim to believe the word of GOD ?

Well brother it will not go away. GOD has opened the seal . Qoran is making a second coming to this "Scientific" generation and future ones" until they realise Qoran is the truth. It is the word of GOD.
Being certain it is the word of GOD only makes one a better believer ,more aware , GOD conscious to change our ways and behaviour. Become a better person!

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 07, 2019, 06:51:10 AM
Peace ibn_a
When GOD said : "It is we who will collect/gather it as a Qoran",many do not believe GOD? Who else do they think  collected this Qoran in the form we have today? i.e 114 surahs!!!!!

 WHY are there 114 surahs in the Qoran ? although the fact that 114 is a multiple of 19, is by itself significant, the answer that this is the reason for 114 surahs is not sufficient enough since there are other multiples of 19, say 38, 57, 76, 95, 133?etc. which could have served the same function as well.
 The answer to the question is found in surah 75:17

[Qoran 75:17] It is we who will collect it into Qoran.

[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

Here God says that He (using angelic forces) is responsible for the collecting of all the verses of the Qoran into what is now called the Qoran . The Arabic verb here for collecting or gathering is (jama?s)  and the nonoun corresponding to is is (Jami?u)  . God is called in the Quran Jami?u .. at least twice in the Qoran, 3:9 and 4:140

[3:9] "Our Lord, You will surely gather .. the people on a day that is inevitable. GOD never breaks a promise."

[4:140] He has instructed you in the scripture that: if you hear GOD's revelations being mocked and ridiculed, you shall not sit with them, unless they delve into another subject. Otherwise, you will be as guilty as they are. GOD will gather the hypocrites . and the disbelievers together in Hell.


While surahs 3:9 says that God is the Gatherer of mankind for the day of Judgment and Surah 4:140 says that He is the Gatherer of all those destined for the Doom, , Surah 75:17 asserts that He is also the Gatherer (Collector) of the revelations of the Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

As we know , there is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will the Collector/gatherer of the Qoran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

Thus Jami?u .. totals 114, the number of surahs in the Qoran.

Besides being the Author of the Qoran, He is responsible for its gathering and collection together. This explains the relationship between God?s special name Al-Jami?u and the number of surahs in the Qoran. God Himself gives the clue in 75:17.

This is all coincidence to those who deny , for reasons unknown??? Because they claim to believe the word of GOD ?

Well brother it will not go away. GOD has opened the seal . Qoran is making a second coming to this "Scientific" generation and future ones" until they realise Qoran is the truth. It is the word of GOD.
Being certain it is the word of GOD only makes one a better believer ,more aware , GOD conscious to change our ways and behaviour. Become a better person!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Absolutely GL...
That's why I believe in chronological order of Quran ... God is the one who collect it and put in recitation order and He is the one who protects it...

I would like to add a comment to this... Has anywhere in Quran when God used "We Do" something and got the assistance of human ?... Can you check that pls GL... Or anyone else... Is there any instance in Quran?
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 07, 2019, 06:01:41 PM
Absolutely GL...
That's why I believe in chronological order of Quran ... God is the one who collect it and put in recitation order and He is the one who protects it...

I would like to add a comment to this... Has anywhere in Quran when God used "We Do" something and got the assistance of human ?... Can you check that pls GL... Or anyone else... Is there any instance in Quran?

Peace Jkhan,

Whatever humans are capable of doing is because GOD has given us the ability. Its easy for God to use human for his purpose. He sent prophets/messengers to do exactly that by inspiration who served specific functions .

42:51 It is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise.

God can inspire any human being not only prophets or messengers. God inspired mother of Moses .

28:7 We inspired to Moses' mother: "Suckle him, and when you become fearful for him, then cast him off in the sea, and do not fear nor grieve. We will return him to you and We will make him of the messengers."

So its easy for God to use humans for  preservation of the reminder (15:9) . And it has been a collective approach by humans to propagate Quran for 1400 years and I think still going on in terms of understanding the Quran via debates and discussion.

Even this argument whether there is a numerical structure of the Quran or not. Some people has mentioned waste of time at the same time wasting their time to disprove it. But with all the arguments for and against still we are enriching our knowledge somehow.  Even in this thread I can see people digging into old manuscript to debate about what should be the correct spelling of some words. So I think its not a total waste of time. But yes some people gets carried away and overdo it which is normal for anything. I am sure some people after revelation of the Quran got carried away and started collecting anything Muhammad said and after few hundred years heaps of hadith/sunnah collection emerged.

And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

Also I find these arguments compelling the way some of the counts were done using inconsistent methodology. 

https://www.quranaloneislam.net/rashad-khalifa-exposed

May be one day there will emerge a consistent numerical structure if God wills and we can observe the Quran as it is in the preserved tablet.


So yes everything that goes towards preserving the reminder is divinely  guided by God and humans in different era probably got inspired to do so.

--When Arabic language emerged  as a written/scripted language
--When Quran was revealed in arabic
--Writing down the Quran
--Arranging the chapters of the Quran
--Memorizing the Quran
--Changes in the spelling of different words (adding alif, deleting alifs etc)
--Discovery of numerical structures or the argument/debate over whether there is one


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 07, 2019, 06:28:41 PM
Peace ST1111...
No.. No.. Probably you didn't get what meant by human... God normally use 'We' and do it Himself and probably malaika... Suppose We destroyed the Nation... So human not involve there.. So I was asking is there any instance in Quran while using We and human involved directly...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 08, 2019, 04:42:02 AM
Peace. seekingtruth1111
You say this, quote:
And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

I have said this:
For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .
So GOD has put 133 N s in surah 68 by spelling N as NUN i.e contains 2 N s. That is why he did not put Janah but Sahibi Al Hoot in the verses, it would have made it 134.

There is no coincidence with GOD s words only deliberate plans.
GOD bless you.
Peace


Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 08, 2019, 05:01:43 AM
Peace. seekingtruth1111
You say this, quote:
And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

I have said this:
For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .
So GOD has put 133 N s in surah 68 by spelling N as NUN i.e contains 2 N s. That is why he did not put Janah but Sahibi Al Hoot in the verses, it would have made it 134.

There is no coincidence with GOD s words only deliberate plans.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace good logic
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 08, 2019, 05:34:19 AM
[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

peace – like all multiples meaningless.

75:17 جمعه jamahu/assembly its
5 + 70 + 40 + 3 = 118

18:99 فجمعنهم fajamanahum/so assemble we them جمعا jaman/assembly (host) of

why not play "hunting 29 multiples" it's much harder less probable?

الجمعه l-jumuati/the assembly (gathering) its
1 + 30 + 70 + 40 + 3+ 30 = 174 (6 x 29!)

اجمعىن ajmaina/all together (collectively)
1 + 70 + 40 + 3 + 10 + 50 = 174 (6 x 29!)

#   gv   word
1   120   جمعوا    70   40   3   6   1      
1   121   اجمعوا    1   70   40   3   6   1      
1   127   واجمعوا    6   1   70   40   3   6   1   
1   143   جمعه    70   40   3   30         
1   163   نجمع    50   70   40   3         
1   173   جمعكم    70   40   3   20   40      
1   174   الجمعه    1   30   70   40   3   30      
1   183   جمعهم    70   40   3   30   40      
1   213   لجمعهم    30   70   40   3   30   40      
1   223   جمعنكم    70   40   3   50   20   40      
1   233   جمعنهم    70   40   3   50   30   40      
1   313   فجمعنهم    80   70   40   3   50   30   40   
1   520   تجمعوا    400   70   40   3   6   1      
2   119   وجمع    6   70   40   3         
2   153   مجمع    40   70   40   3         
2   183   ىجمعكم    10   70   40   3   20   40      
2   193   فجمع    80   70   40   3         
2   201   فاجمعوا    80   1   70   40   3   6   1   
2   263   لىجمعنكم    30   10   70   40   3   50   20   40   
3   114   جمعا    70   40   3   1         
3   123   ىجمع    10   70   40   3         
3   144   الجمع    1   30   70   40   3      
3   170   اجمعون    1   70   40   3   6   50      
3   179   ىجمعون    10   70   40   3   6   50      
4   113   جمع    70   40   3         
4   194   الجمعن    1   30   70   40   3   50      
23   174   اجمعىن    1   70   40   3   10   50      

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 08, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
Peace  seekingtruth1111

What do you mean by, quote:
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?

It makes no difference to the count of N s?
GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 08, 2019, 04:07:02 PM
Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 08, 2019, 11:40:29 PM
Peace  seekingtruth1111

What do you mean by, quote:
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?

It makes no difference to the count of N s?
GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace Goodlogic

I am not talking about count of Ns. I am talking about why do you then discard the count of waw ? The inital should have 2 NuNs and one waw
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 09, 2019, 02:10:44 AM
Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Some meaningless or meaningful observation with chapter,verse,word numbers

3rd word of 75:17 is the word جَمْعَهُ

(75:17:3) jamʿahu   (is) its collection   إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ

75+17+3=95=19x5

If we do it for the 13 concordance of the same word we get 1311=19x69

http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AjamoE+pos%3An
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 09, 2019, 04:27:53 AM
Some meaningless or meaningful observation with chapter,verse,word numbers

3rd word of 75:17 is the word جَمْعَهُ

(75:17:3) jamʿahu   (is) its collection   إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ

75+17+3=95=19x5

If we do it for the 13 concordance of the same word we get 1311=19x69

http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AjamoE+pos%3An

peace -- try applying consistently each verse; likewise all verses?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=jmE#(75:17:3)

3   155   7      165       l-jamʿāni   8.684210526
3   166   5      174       l-jamʿāni   9.157894737
7   48   11      66       jamʿukum   3.473684211
8   41   28      77       l-jamʿāni   4.052631579
18   99   11      128       jamʿan   6.736842105
26   61   3      90       l-jamʿāni   4.736842105
28   78   23      129       jamʿan   6.789473684
42   7   13      62       l-jamʿi   3.263157895
42   29   13      84       jamʿihim   4.421052632
54   45   2      101       l-jamʿu   5.315789474
64   9   4      77       l-jamʿi   4.052631579
75   17   3      95      jamʿahu   5 x 19
100   5   3      108      jamʿan   5.684210526
                     
...   ...   ...      1356         71.36842105


Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace good logic, 75:17 جمعه assembly its -- nothing to do with verses below.

3:9 jamiu/assemble
4:140 jamiu/assemble    
24:62 jamiin/collective

In oldest manuscripts were written no alif (70+40+3=113) same as below.

104:2 الذى the one جمع jamaa/assemble (hoard) مالا wealth of وعدده and count it

Already posted variations words written with suffix/prefix e.g. "ya" he gathers or gathered.

5:109 ىوم day ىجمع yajmau/assembled (gathered) الله the god الرسل the messengers
64:9 ىوم day ىجمعكم yajmaukum/assembled (gathered) you لىوم to day الجمع l-jami/the assembly 
75:3 اىحسب do calculated الانسن the humankind الن that not نجمع najmaa/we assemble عظمه bones his?

see last line 4:140 ان indeed الله the god جمع jamiu/assemble (gather)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=13

see 8th line from bottom: https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=31

see 7th line from top: https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=496

see 6th line from top: Berlin, State Library: ms.or.fol. 4313 606-652, CE dated (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=15

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6d4L6Qq/ch4v137-146.jpg)

74:30-31 (nineteen guards over hellfire) nothing to do with today’s multiple hunting infatuation.

peace!
 
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 09, 2019, 05:33:12 AM
peace -- try applying consistently each verse; likewise all verses?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=jmE#(75:17:3)

3   155   7      165       l-jamʿāni   8.684210526
3   166   5      174       l-jamʿāni   9.157894737
7   48   11      66       jamʿukum   3.473684211
8   41   28      77       l-jamʿāni   4.052631579
18   99   11      128       jamʿan   6.736842105
26   61   3      90       l-jamʿāni   4.736842105
28   78   23      129       jamʿan   6.789473684
42   7   13      62       l-jamʿi   3.263157895
42   29   13      84       jamʿihim   4.421052632
54   45   2      101       l-jamʿu   5.315789474
64   9   4      77       l-jamʿi   4.052631579
75   17   3      95      jamʿahu   5 x 19
100   5   3      108      jamʿan   5.684210526
                     
...   ...   ...      1356         71.36842105



peace!

Peace

I had a feeling someone will waste time to disprove it :) .

I did not count repeating chapter numbers 1356-3-42=1311

However following your consistent approach for all the verses with the same root jīm mīm ʿayn (ج م ع)

12350=19x650
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 09, 2019, 09:06:04 AM
Peace  seekingtruth1111

If I am counting the N s then I do not count the W.
If I am counting the letters of the whole surah for the purpose of interlock, then of course I count it.
What is the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 09, 2019, 09:14:40 AM
Peace Noon.
Your argument should be either:
1- Jamihu-Gatherer has not got a  a total number of 114.
2- It is coincidence ,
The rest of your posts are irrelevant.
For 1- I await if you disagree.
For 2- I say there is no coincidence with GOD s words . They are put exactly where the number frame for the text dictates. All meticulously planned.- Kitabun Marquoom- A mathematically composed book.(Every letter ,every word ,every verse and every surah arranged by the Gatherer+)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 09, 2019, 10:21:43 AM
peace good logic,

everything posted on 19 is irrelevant meaningless multiples at par with stupid stuff on the internet -- embarrassing!

again today's infatuation hunting multiples "hiding" 18/19 failures showing 1/19 hits has nothing to do with 74:30-31

I had a feeling someone will waste time to disprove it :) .

I did not count repeating chapter numbers 1356-3-42=1311

However following your consistent approach for all the verses with the same root jīm mīm ʿayn (ج م ع)

12350=19x650

peace, another meaningless multiple why not play with: https://www.random.org/integers

perhaps play "hunt 29" lower probability although this case beats 19 by 8 to 4 or double!

2   161   13      176         _            _      ajmaʿīna
2   29   8      39         _            _      jamīʿan
2   38   4      44         _            _      jamīʿan
2   148   13      163         _            _      jamīʿan
2   165   27      194         _            _      jamīʿan
3   25   3      31         _            _      jamaʿnāhum
3   157   14      174         6 x 29            _      yajmaʿūna
3   173   8      184         _            _      jamaʿū
3   87   9      99         _            _      ajmaʿīna
3   155   7      165         _            _      l-jamʿāni
3   166   5      174         6 x 29            _      l-jamʿāni
3   103   4      110         _            _      jamīʿan
3   9   3      15         _            _      jāmiʿu
4   23   43      70         _            _      tajmaʿū
4   87   6      97         _            _      layajmaʿannakum
4   71   10      85         _            _      jamīʿan
4   139   14      157         _            _      jamīʿan
4   140   33      177         _            _      jamīʿan
4   172   18      194         _            _      jamīʿan
4   140   28      172         _            _      jāmiʿu
5   109   2      116         4 x 29            _      yajmaʿu
5   17   28      50         _            _      jamīʿan
5   32   21      58         2 x 29            _      jamīʿan
5   32   27      64         _            _      jamīʿan
5   36   10      51         _            _      jamīʿan
5   48   46      99         _            _      jamīʿan
5   105   15      125         _            _      jamīʿan
6   12   13      31         _            _      layajmaʿannakum
6   35   22      63         _            _      lajamaʿahum
6   149   8      163         _            _      ajmaʿīna
6   22   3      31         _            _      jamīʿan
6   128   3      137         _            _      jamīʿan
7   18   12      37         _            _      ajmaʿīna
7   124   8      139         _            _      ajmaʿīna
7   48   11      66         _            _      jamʿukum
7   38   23      68         _            _      jamīʿan
7   158   8      173         _            _      jamīʿan
8   41   28      77         _            _      l-jamʿāni
8   37   12      57         _            3 x 19      jamīʿan
8   63   9      80         _            _      jamīʿan
10   58   10      78         _            _      yajmaʿūna
10   71   20      101         _            _      fa-ajmiʿū
10   4   3      17         _            _      jamīʿan
10   28   3      41         _            _      jamīʿan
10   65   7      82         _            _      jamīʿan
10   99   9      118         _            _      jamīʿan
11   119   15      145         5 x 29            _      ajmaʿīna
11   55   4      70         _            _      jamīʿan
11   103   11      125         _            _      majmūʿun
12   15   4      31         _            _      wa-ajmaʿū
12   102   11      125         _            _      ajmaʿū
12   93   12      117         _            _      ajmaʿīna
12   83   14      109         _            _      jamīʿan
13   18   15      46         _            _      jamīʿan
13   31   18      62         _            _      jamīʿan
13   31   29      73         _            _      jamīʿan
13   42   8      63         _            _      jamīʿan
14   8   9      31         _            _      jamīʿan
14   21   3      38         _            2 x 19      jamīʿan
15   30   4      49         _            _      ajmaʿūna
15   39   10      64         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   43   4      62         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   59   6      80         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   92   3      110         _            _      ajmaʿīna
16   9   10      35         _            _      ajmaʿīna
17   88   3      108         _            _      ij'tamaʿati
17   103   9      129         _            _      jamīʿan
18   99   10      127         _            _      fajamaʿnāhum
18   99   11      128         _            _      jamʿan
18   60   9      87         3 x 29            _      majmaʿa
18   61   3      82         _            _      majmaʿa
20   60   3      83         _            _      fajamaʿa
20   64   1      85         _            _      fa-ajmiʿū
20   123   4      147         _            _      jamīʿan
21   77   12      110         _            _      ajmaʿīna
22   73   17      112         _            _      ij'tamaʿū
24   31   74      129         _            _      jamīʿan
24   61   55      140         _            _      jamīʿan
24   62   12      98         _            _      jāmiʿin
26   38   1      65         _            _      fajumiʿa
26   49   21      96         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   65   5      96         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   95   3      124         _            _      ajmaʿūna
26   170   3      199         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   61   3      90         _            _      l-jamʿāni
26   56   2      84         _            _      lajamīʿun
26   39   5      70         _            _      muj'tamiʿūna
27   51   9      87         3 x 29            _      ajmaʿīna
28   78   23      129         _            _      jamʿan
32   13   16      61         _            _      ajmaʿīna
34   26   2      62         _            _      yajmaʿu
34   40   3      77         _            _      jamīʿan
35   10   7      52         _            _      jamīʿan
36   32   4      72         _            _      jamīʿun
36   53   8      97         _            _      jamīʿun
37   134   4      175         _            _      ajmaʿīna
38   73   4      115         _            _      ajmaʿūna
38   82   4      124         _            _      ajmaʿīna
38   85   7      130         _            _      ajmaʿīna
39   44   4      87         3 x 29            _      jamīʿan
39   47   8      94         _            _      jamīʿan
39   53   16      108         _            _      jamīʿan
39   67   7      113         _            _      jamīʿan
42   15   31      88         _            _      yajmaʿu
42   7   13      62         _            _      l-jamʿi
42   29   13      84         _            _      jamʿihim
43   32   25      100         _            _      yajmaʿūna
43   55   6      104         _            _      ajmaʿīna
44   40   5      89         _            _      ajmaʿīna
45   26   7      78         _            _      yajmaʿukum
45   13   9      67         _            _      jamīʿan
54   45   2      101         _            _      l-jamʿu
54   44   4      102         _            _      jamīʿun
56   50   1      107         _            _      lamajmūʿūna
58   6   4      68         _            _      jamīʿan
58   18   4      80         _            _      jamīʿan
59   14   3      76         _            4 x 19      jamīʿan
59   14   16      89         _            _      jamīʿan
62   9   9      80         _            _      l-jumuʿati
64   9   2      75         _            _      yajmaʿukum
64   9   4      77         _            _      l-jamʿi
70   18   1      89         _            _      wajamaʿa
70   14   4      88         _            _      jamīʿan
75   3   4      82         _            _      najmaʿa
75   9   1      85         _            _      wajumiʿa
75   17   3      95         _            5 x 19      jamʿahu
77   38   4      119         _            _      jamaʿnākum
100   5   3      108         _            _      jamʿan
104   2   2      108         _            _      jamaʿa
                                       
_   _   _      12350                        

yes even though takes few minutes -- total waste of time really stupid stuff at par with flat earth and dumb hearsay stories.

peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 09, 2019, 05:49:19 PM

everything posted on 19 is irrelevant meaningless multiples at par with stupid stuff on the internet --                

yes even though takes few minutes -- total waste of time really stupid stuff at par with flat earth and dumb hearsay stories.


Peace..
Don't raise and be proud beyond limit... One day it can hurt beyond you blamed..
You are believer or Munafiq God only knows.. Like everyone... Let God decide.. But if you a believer... There is no point if you deny whatever manifest 19 or other numerical pattern...  Numerical patterns are there for sure.. Aren't there?...  So obey that.. Entirely denying is showing your balls... I mean you have shown your earth ball..
Stupidity and nonsensical thing is to believe a thing that is never there and never seen and never can percieve and never with eyewitness proved... All mystical delusion of globe earth... But stationary earth is visible and for ages people believed and still people are believing... And so perceivable and within the sense of human... And if you are a believer Quran never support spinning earth only your delusiom and leaning to deception will support...

Keep denying but we will keep agreeing to 19 ...you know one thing it increases our belief in God and and makes it firm... What makes you increase in God's belief BTW.. NASA?  Lol..

Just don't deny basic at least... In chapter 1 ... 19 times both lips strongly touching to pronounce 19 words... They are B   and M..  4 times and 15 times respectively.... Why... And their geometric value is B=2 ..M=40 ...so total 608... 19x32.... Why... We can't deny them.... Bring any other religions book other God and show me some great numerical pattern...
Dude why God challenged bring at least one real chapter.. My goodness. There very short chapters.. Why can't take up the challenge... There are lot to be revealed from Quran.. Wait and see...
UNTILL then keep spinning the ball... At least it would stop at 19th angle... 😊

God bless you if you believer... And God make you victorious over us if you are right.. If you are right let God give you more and more knowledge and expose all those who against you...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on December 10, 2019, 01:17:54 AM
Salaam,



74:31 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know the soldiers of your Lord except He; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

There are two groups both of whom claim to believe in the Quran being of divine origin

One group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters  and seeing this fitna/trial of the rejecters their faith increases and followings happens

so that those [/color]who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.

The second group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters because of the mathematical structure of the Quran and their faith increases observing the mathematical miracle or the Quran not observing the fitna/trial of the rejecters.

Now the question is who  are the rejecters?

As per the same chapter of the Quran they are the ones who doubt/reject the divine origin of the Quran and says it is merely saying of a human being.

74:24 So he said: "This is nothing except the magic of old."
74:25 "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."

So this is the 3rd group who categorically reject Quran and also any miracle claimed for Quran

Now back to the first two groups(both of which accepts the divine origin of the Quran)

One of them will be saying along with the rejecters "What did God mean with an example such as this?"

and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.


Some said since before understanding this example we need to ask the question "What did God mean with an example such as this?" we should not even try to interpret or understand this example/verse

Same Queston can be found in the following verse

2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does God intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

Does God forbids us to ponder over the examples ?

The following verse says every example should be pondered over.
39:27 And We have put forth for the people in this Qur'an from every example, that they may take heed.

So should we ponder over  verse 74:31 ?

--How "their number/count"  becomes fitna/test for the people who have rejected the divine orign of Quran?
--Does observing fitna/test for rejecter that increases the faith of the believers or observation related to  "their number/count" increases the faith ?

....

Peace seekingtruth1111,

I think it is good analyze.




...

Just as an example:

I just observed the word "their number"/عِدَّتَهُمْ  is the 9th word of the verse 74:31. 74+31+9=114=19x6 .

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9) (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9))

However I also tried the followings which are  not multiple of 19

74319 not a multiple of 19
7+4+3+1+9=24 not a multiple of 19

So is it a fitna/test for me because I am trying to discover a pattern with number 19 divisible? Am I rejecting the divine origin of Quran?

Has anyone's faith increased by observing this  fitna?
red:mine

Some say it does increase their faith.

...

Quote
In this discussion, you can clearly see 74:30-31 in action because you can see who doesn't believe in the great reading without being attracted to Code 19. So they believe in the Code MORE than they believe in the great reading. Their claim of belief is as false as their Code. Please remember that 74:30-31 clearly states that the count/counting of 19 is nothing except a "fitna" (attractive temptation) for the disbelievers. Seeing this empirically verifiable fact is what results in increasing the belief of those who are ALREADY believers (without any Code).

...
red:mine

One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God.

----

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be to suggest to a group of believers that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers counting.

----

They don't  (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashari

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/
So according to logic this number 19 will disprove that : In hatha illa qawlu albashari
 


And I thik that they missed also the warning: Innaha la-ihda alkubari  natheeran lilbashari
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on December 10, 2019, 01:39:00 AM
Salaam,




...
nothing – everything posted is irrelevant, why freak out over multiples?
9:128-129 one can hunt multiples as well, why not freak out at below?

91289129 = 19 x 4804691
9 + 128 + 129 = 266 (14 x 19!)

total letters 60 + 54 = 114 (6 x 19!)

19th word is Allah!
76th letter (76 = 19 x 4) is alif in Allah!

# of letters from beginning of verse to including Allah = 19!
9:129 فان so if تولوا turn they of فقل so say حسبى suffices me الله the god

19th word Allah to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 301 1305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 = 19 x …!

19th word Allah followed by word # to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 19 301 20 1305 21 1301 22 56 23 7030105 24 40062030400 25 656 26 2002 27 13070200300 28 130709001040 29 = 19 x...!

http://www.javascripter.net/math/calculators/100digitbigintcalculator.htm
(To calculate the remainder of division, use the mod button.)

peace!

Peace Noon waalqalami,

A good example on how to operate, in order to blur the numerical structure of the Quran.
And also helped by those who believe in a numerical structure in the Quran, but exaggerate, force or manipulate data and present the results that are coincidences as patterns.

Same way as those who criticize islam because of the interpretations by some muslims.

Do not see how your example would disprove a numerical structure of the Quran, please reread what I said:

Salaam,




Peace Noon waalqalami,



Of course obvious that when there is a large amount of data, some of it could be a multiple of whatever number, no issue about that,  but that does not exclude a structure / pattern, if this was the author' s intention.

It is also logical to differentiate between that what is due to coincidence ( 1/whatever number ) and that what is intended by the Author.

Not sure about a methode to find an intended pattern wthout failures.

Logique that failures are due to the fact that the patterns / structures are no known in advance.

I do not see the relevance about the failures, as they do not disprove a possible numerical structure

Failures do not change the facts, if there are.


-----


The issue / question  is about intended or not.
example:

- Are  the 114 capters of the Quran intended or it just happen to be 114 ?

- Was the basmalah chosen to have 19 letters or it just happen to be 19 ?

 - Why is there no Basmalah in chapter 9 and an extra Basmalah in chapter 27, and why this 19 chapter distance?

- Are the positions of the chapters (with initial letters) assinged or could they be in any other position?

- What is  74: 30-31 about ?

- etc ....




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 10, 2019, 01:49:52 AM
Peace  seekingtruth1111

If I am counting the N s then I do not count the W.
If I am counting the letters of the whole surah for the purpose of interlock, then of course I count it.
What is the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace Goodlogic!

Why are you not counting waw in this chapter ?

In all other chapters all the quranic initials are counted. So the method is not consistent .
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on December 10, 2019, 01:54:16 AM
Salaam,



...
In oldest manuscripts were written no alif (70+40+3=113) same as below.

104:2 الذى the one جمع jamaa/assemble (hoard) مالا wealth of وعدده and count it

...

Peace Noon waalqalami,

(I did not study GV, so not sure what it proves or disproves,....),
but why not be objective and show the manuscripts where it is spelled with Alif: جامع

For example this manuscript that you labeld as : "oldest manuscript and consistent"
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.msg419034#msg419034

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=163
  662-765, σ2 (95,4%) [¹⁴C-Datierung durch Coranica] 

(https://i.imgur.com/cTG4MKe.png)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 10, 2019, 04:26:54 AM
Peace,
The initial is "N" not "W" i.e Not  the spelling of letter N . Hence one would count the "N s not the "W s" This seems logical to me.

It is up to you if you take the stand that W is also an initial in Surah 68 . I do not. The initial is made clear that it is the letter N not how it was spelt..
GOD for the obvious reasons given above in my posts decided to spell it that way.
So shall we say another fitna for either me or you?
GOD bless you.
Peace. .
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 10, 2019, 05:13:27 AM
Peace   seekingtruth1111/
If however you say we count the "W" separately then do so. You may find there are 95 of them.(19 x 5)
See how many you can find by counting them yourself.
 However, I still think the initial concerned in surah 68 is N s regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: seekingtruth1111 on December 10, 2019, 05:50:05 AM
Peace   seekingtruth1111/
If however you say we count the "W" separately then do so. You may find there are 95 of them.(19 x 5)
See how many you can find by counting them yourself.
 However, I still think the initial concerned in surah 68 is N s regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace

97 times if you spell NuN with waw. 96 times if you don't spell it with waw. Just copy paste this text in a word file and search و

(68:0) بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
(68:1) نون والقلم وما يسطرون
(68:2) ما انت بنعمه ربك بمجنون
(68:3) وان لك لاجرا غير ممنون
(68:4) وانك لعلي خلق عظيم
(68:5) فستبصر ويبصرون
(68:6) باييكم المفتون
(68:7) ان ربك هو اعلم بمن ضل عن سبيله وهو اعلم بالمهتدين
(68:8) فلا تطع المكذبين
(68:9) ودوا لو تدهن فيدهنون
(68:10) ولا تطع كل حلاف مهين
(68:11) هماز مشا بنميم
(68:12) مناع للخير معتد اثيم
(68:13) عتل بعد ذلك زنيم
(68:14) ان كان ذا مال وبنين
(68:15) اذا تتلي عليه ايتنا قال اسطير الاولين
(68:16) سنسمه علي الخرطوم
(68:17) انا بلونهم كما بلونا اصحب الجنه اذ اقسموا ليصرمنها مصبحين
(68:18) ولا يستثنون
(68:19) فطاف عليها طايف من ربك وهم نايمون
(68:20) فاصبحت كالصريم
(68:21) فتنادوا مصبحين
(68:22) ان اغدوا علي حرثكم ان كنتم صرمين
(68:23) فانطلقوا وهم يتخفتون
(68:24) ان لا يدخلنها اليوم عليكم مسكين
(68:25) وغدوا علي حرد قدرين
(68:26) فلما راوها قالوا انا لضالون
(68:27) بل نحن محرومون
(68:28) قال اوسطهم الم اقل لكم لولا تسبحون
(68:29) قالوا سبحن ربنا انا كنا ظلمين
(68:30) فاقبل بعضهم علي بعض يتلومون
(68:31) قالوا يويلنا انا كنا طغين
(68:32) عسي ربنا ان يبدلنا خيرا منها انا الي ربنا رغبون
(68:33) كذلك العذاب ولعذاب الاخره اكبر لو كانوا يعلمون
(68:34) ان للمتقين عند ربهم جنت النعيم
(68:35) افنجعل المسلمين كالمجرمين
(68:36) ما لكم كيف تحكمون
(68:37) ام لكم كتب فيه تدرسون
(68:38) ان لكم فيه لما تخيرون
(68:39) ام لكم ايمن علينا بلغه الي يوم القيمه ان لكم لما تحكمون
(68:40) سلهم ايهم بذلك زعيم
(68:41) ام لهم شركا فلياتوا بشركايهم ان كانوا صدقين
(68:42) يوم يكشف عن ساق ويدعون الي السجود فلا يستطيعون
(68:43) خشعه ابصرهم ترهقهم ذله وقد كانوا يدعون الي السجود وهم سلمون
(68:44) فذرني ومن يكذب بهذا الحديث سنستدرجهم من حيث لا يعلمون
(68:45) واملي لهم ان كيدي متين
(68:46) ام تسلهم اجرا فهم من مغرم مثقلون
(68:47) ام عندهم الغيب فهم يكتبون
(68:48) فاصبر لحكم ربك ولا تكن كصاحب الحوت اذ نادي وهو مكظوم
(68:49) لولا ان تدركه نعمه من ربه لنبذ بالعرا وهو مذموم
(68:50) فاجتبه ربه فجعله من الصلحين
(68:51) وان يكاد الذين كفروا ليزلقونك بابصرهم لما سمعوا الذكر ويقولون انه لمجنون
(68:52) وما هو الا ذكر للعلمين
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 10, 2019, 06:53:56 AM
Peace  seekingtruth1111
Like I said the initial is N. Not W.
I counted 34 +51 +10 at first when you mentioned it, I counted again when you posted  and I found 96. Regardless, W is not the initial.
The Initial N is right 133. That is what really counts for me. W is not an initial of surah 68 and irrelevant..
If you argue otherwise, that is fine by me. You are entitled to your view.
I have no argument or problem with W not fitting.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 10, 2019, 08:55:49 AM
Peace  seekingtruth1111
Like I said the initial is N. Not W.
I counted 34 +51 +10 at first when you mentioned it, I counted again when you posted  and I found 96. Regardless, W is not the initial.
The Initial N is right 133. That is what really counts for me. W is not an initial of surah 68 and irrelevant..
If you argue otherwise, that is fine by me. You are entitled to your view.
I have no argument or problem with W not fitting.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace GL...
I have noticed this inconsistent way of counting in certain aspects first time I ever knew about RK and research ... But I only took what is consistent in numerical pattern.. It never made me to go after for everything...(Salat time,  Zakath, his messengership etc) That's why I never accepted any such counts away from Quran... But whatever within Quran I always accepted.. I respect him.. His destiny is in God's hand... . Even ibn-a I appreciated his works also I laughed at him when he brought about moon and counting.. That's rubbish... Stick with Quran... Coz I don't judge the person but what he speaks..
Further I accept tampering though it is away from existing quran but to oust those two verses the evidences furnished are beyond imagination...
Also this NuN issue... I accept it..but reason to accept unknown. Hope future will tell.. Something very special is hidden in this Nun.. So far I don't think it is convincing.... Just a belief... Coz all initialed letters tallied with numerical 19 particular.. And why this last initial letter should be exempted.. That bothers...
ST1111 question or I have noticed few others also posted question before such as either Laith or Sarah Moderator... Why wow...
Complicated but it definitely look it is Nun based chapter...
As you said GL, 14 times N apears in the verse Dunnun  mentioned.. N is 14th of such initial group..  N is 14th letter in Arabic...N sura is 68th  6+8=14.. Lol...

Nun is single letter group.. Like Qaf.. But Qaf is counted as 1..but Qaf doesn't end in Q.. Like QaQ.. But Nun does..

All other letters are multiple letter initials... But in H M ..the M is generally pronounced as MeeM but not  taken as two Ms... But NuN still single letter initialed sura ...

Why rest of the 28 initialed suras tally and not Nun... That's key.. Why God pronounced N as NuN in same chapter that also in a very strange manner uncommon way to call a messenger .

Most of all why all these meaningless letters are placed atop of 29 chapters...  Which no one can ever give a meaning to them other than considering them as Arabic letters.. But  so far only constructive meaning given is numerical pattern based on these letters..
May God guide us and show us things manifestly...untill then be patiently..
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 10, 2019, 08:58:17 AM
(I did not study GV, so not sure what it proves or disproves,....),
but why not be objective and show the manuscripts where it is spelled with Alif: جامع

peace ibn, don't waste your time it's nonsense; there is no consistent code/pattern they're only freaking out at multiples.
again 74:30-31 (#of guards over hellfire) has nothing to do with  today's 19 infatuation, see my prior post read correctly.

look closely that manuscript original words were traced over numerous alif's added “penned in” later although in some cases they were lazy missed a few. We can approximately date manuscripts pre/post alifs and initials e.g. الم alif lam meem  as separate verses etc., ~150 years later.

3:9 ربنا lord ours انك indeed you جمع jamiu/assemble (gather) الناس the people لىوم to day لا not رىب doubt فىه in it ان indeed الله the god لا not ىخلف failed المىعاد the promise

with alif
700-900 (?) see 9th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=565
 
700-1000 see 3rd line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=41

750-1000 (?) see 3rd line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=681


no alif جمع

dated pre 750 see 9th line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=13

662-765, (95,4%) see 3rd line from bottom alif “penned in” during trace over
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=163

606-652 (95,4%) see 10th line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=73

(https://i.postimg.cc/19hbrVNM/ch3v4-14.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 10, 2019, 10:08:48 AM
Peace jkhan.
It is not me or RK or anyone else who spelt N as NUN in Qoran. 21:87 clearly spelt it like that. It is still the letter N.
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

This is indicating to us that  NUN is the letter N spelt like this in Qoran. This is also indicating that the other letter N should be spelt like this, - Exactly 14 N s in the verse indicate the 14 initials, hence the initial N is spelt NUN in the two cases where they are a single letter in the whole Qoran 21:87 and 68:1.
So the initial is the letter N , not how it is spelt. 68:1 has not got 3 initials and one of them is W . It is about the initial N only. Hence we count the N s only not the W.
Or you might say this is all coincidence?
You are entitled to your view.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 11, 2019, 12:17:30 AM
Peace jkhan.
It is not me or RK or anyone else who spelt N as NUN in Qoran. 21:87 clearly spelt it like that. It is still the letter N.
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

This is indicating to us that  NUN is the letter N spelt like this in Qoran. This is also indicating that the other letter N should be spelt like this, - Exactly 14 N s in the verse indicate the 14 initials, hence the initial N is spelt NUN in the two cases where they are a single letter in the whole Qoran 21:87 and 68:1.
So the initial is the letter N , not how it is spelt. 68:1 has not got 3 initials and one of them is W . It is about the initial N only. Hence we count the N s only not the W.
Or you might say this is all coincidence?
You are entitled to your view.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

As I said this NuN has some peculiar patten... All initials tallied but people have concern here in NuN the way it is counted.. .
Look at the phenomena in this way... 

** N is spelled as NuN in verse 21:87 which in fact has no direct meaning as of initials atop of other chapters.. More Strangely all verses after 21:87 until end of chapter 21, That is 21:112 ends in Letter 'N'... Non ends till end of chapter 21 in any other letter other than "N"

** more strangely...  In entire chapter21, verses end as "N" 106 occasions.. Rest 6 ends as 'M'... The peculiar thing is the Way NuN is spelled N W N.. Geometrical value of these three letters are N=50 W=6 N=50 is 106 ... That's the same number of times the verses end in letter "N" in chapter 21...

Pls verify..
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 11, 2019, 05:39:39 AM
Or you might say this is all coincidence?

peace, no coincidence including/excluding "hunting" to get meaningless multiples.

21:85 واسمعىل and Ismail وادرىس and Idris وذا and owner الكفل l-kifli/the ample portion
21:87 وذا and owner النون l-nuni (i.e. yunus) اذ when ذهب left مغاضبا angry of (angrily)

perhaps time travel (as khalifa) teach all the old scribes to write نون nwn واو waw

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=38

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=56

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1/handschrift/107

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=163

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=170

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=481

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=620

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/68/vers/1?handschrift=878

** more strangely...  In entire chapter21, verses end as "N" 106 occasions.. Rest 6 ends as 'M'... The peculiar thing is the Way NuN is spelled N W N.. Geometrical value of these three letters are N=50 W=6 N=50 is 106 ... That's the same number of times the verses end in letter "N" in chapter 21...

Pls verify..

sure lets play multiple hunting

68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami

total ن in ch 68 =   132   
total  م in ch 68 =   123   
verses in ch 68 =   53   
ن verse ending =   42
م verse ending =   11

all above totals =   361 (19 x 19) miraculous!  :hail

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 11, 2019, 07:30:07 AM

sure lets play multiple hunting

68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami

total ن in ch 68 =   132   + 01
total  م in ch 68 =   123   never counted
verses in ch 68 =   53   -01
ن verse ending =   42 right..
م verse ending =   11 -01

all above totals =   361 (19 x 19) miraculous!  :hail .... So unfortunately not tally according to my password protected Quran.. Do you want me to follow your quran.. Then give reason why ..

Ah... You addressed me... Thank you... But I don't entertain in responses whose solo intention is play with numbers... Just coz one opened a door in miraculous way with numerical pattern that also with heavy hardship at a time when there is no easy way of counting.... You are born to humiliate them with easy techniques available now... Do you think you are doing a great job... Just look at you... You hunting afyer these numbers only... Hardly you contribute in any other topic... Anyhow keep up.. You know one thing... All those who call will fall from their capabilities... 

So you want play with me... But...  I can't.. I won't... But I will pray for you your guidance... Knowledge is not guidance... Proper application of know-how is guidance...

Unfortunately your time is wasted coz I don't accept your hard work... Coz it doesn't tally... Try a better one next..

I have learned Law and psychology...  I can easily understand people's mentality... I am afraid.. Brother...  God is watching... Anyway.. You are a hadith follower.... So I don't go after them much... Until they depend only on QURAN...
No grudges okay.. You will be in my duas.. Your heart and mine is different... The way you perceived me and the way I perceive you is entirely different...  I want your guidance.. You want dominance over those who accept basic numerical pattern in quran... I feel for you... What is your intention by playing around with numbers and old unverifiable gnawed pieces of Quran which easily can be photoshoped adding anything.. ?  Do want our Guidance? Or you self satisfied in doing so? Believers do feel for each other... But I don't see in you... Not coz you don't believe in numerically structured pattern.. But they way present it... Easily traceable your intention...  I sense you are spending most of your time only disapprove those numerical patten and not for your own guidance.. So dude who are these people who believe in numerical pattern?  Disbelievers? Intentionally misguiding group ? So our intention is to cheat people by numerical pattern which in fact do exist... You also know that numerical pattern do exist but you take it for mocking even the glaring ones... What benefit for you? Do you ever wonder by the verses of Quran?  If so kindly  let me know by which verses and why?
But one thing is for sure... NASA and what they presented is beyond miracle to you.. Aren't they?   You never say anything wrong about them but further nourish them... ..    .. You have freedom.. Do what you want.. We will do... You didn't convince us so that we stop believing in numerical pattern.. You can never...
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 11, 2019, 08:14:13 AM
"So unfortunately not tally according to my password protected Quran.. Do you want me to follow your quran.. Then give reason why .."

^^^ you counted N in verse 68:0 yet don't count the verse?

show password protected -- which verses are these, why?

 موسى Moses وهرون and Aaron

هرون Aaron وموسى and Moses

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 11, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
Peace Noon.
Is this not 68:1?:
نُونْ وَالقَلَمِ وَما يَسطُرونَ
Everything is counted.Or do you have your Mushafs with errors in them to disprove this? Or do you have the copy of the prophet,the original?
For some reason I feel you cannot provide the copy of the prophet.? GOD does not care about this,knew the future and locked His words Mathematically.
It does not matter what people do with mushafs ,adding,taking away. The secret has come out. Mathematics is now speaking to us about GOD s plan of preserving His words..
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on December 11, 2019, 04:41:31 PM
"So unfortunately not tally according to my password protected Quran.. Do you want me to follow your quran.. Then give reason why .."

^^^ you counted N in verse 68:0 yet don't count the verse?

show password protected -- which verses are these, why?

 موسى Moses وهرون and Aaron

هرون Aaron وموسى and Moses

Be satisfied  with your quran... But I am happy with what I have... Just follow dude.. Increase your faith and try to find a way out from hell fire.. That's my priority...
God guide you..
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 12, 2019, 12:34:46 AM
Is this not 68:1?:
نُونْ وَالقَلَمِ وَما يَسطُرونَ

no – initials are NOT “spelled out” written as single ن letters.
68:1 ن N والقلم and/by the pen وما and what ىسطرون they’re writing

when referring to someone/something called "Noon" use نون e.g. 
21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni (yunus) اذ when ذهب left مغضبا angry of

فندق نون Hotel Noon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvcuTo8WLs0

ابن نون son (of) Noon, etc., etc.

To reiterate the verses below are about denial/rejection in revelation.

74:27 وما and what ادرك makes know you ما what سقر abyss
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her (it) تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of 19 entities)

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers (angels)
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of

 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزدد and increased الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتب doubted (in verse 74:30) الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and those believing

 ولىقول and surely speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
 ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of (questioning 74:30 why 19 of them?)

 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your (i.e. the # of guards over abyss) الا except هو he
 وما and not هى it is الا except ذكرى reminder للبشر to the mortal


peace!
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 12, 2019, 05:11:32 AM
Peace Noon.
I can see why you called yourself noon!!!

I do not recall there is anything or anyone called noon as far as I know except the letter N in Arabic.
However now you can say you are called noon. I see where you are coming from.
If there is no  noon noun, invent one.
By hook or by crook, you are hell bent on challenging the Qoran s numerical structure

Carry on brother.We will see where this ends up.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: Noon waalqalami on December 12, 2019, 11:29:13 PM
I do not recall there is anything or anyone called noon as far as I know except the letter N in Arabic.
However now you can say you are called noon. I see where you are coming from.
If there is no  noon noun, invent one.

peace, surely not the letter N left angrily ...

21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni (yunus) اذ when ذهب left مغضبا angry of 

Joshua bin (son of) Noon يوشع بن نون
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/joshua/1-1.htm
https://www.esv.org/Numbers+13:16;Numbers+11:28;Numbers+14:6;Numbers+14:30;Numbers+14:38;Exodus+24:13;Deuteronomy+32:44;Nehemiah+8:17/

Dhu'l-Nun al-Misri ذو النون المصري‎‎ 7006 13050650 130409020010 = 19 x ...!
http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/created-for-compassion.html

Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)  568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/87?handschrift=158

(https://i.postimg.cc/hS5941pf/ch21v78-90.jpg)
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: good logic on December 13, 2019, 05:53:26 AM
Peace Noon.
In Arabic, you are also "Dha Noon" .i.e With the letter N in your name.
. Younes, or Jonah got N in the name. Or do you disagree that the person in 21:87 is Jonah? Why did GOD not say Younes? Why use "Dha Noon " when his name is clearly Younes?
Or you do not have any logical answer?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on February 03, 2020, 12:47:56 AM
Salaam,



The last word of each chapter of the Quran and prime numbers.

An interesting observation about the last word of each chapter of the 114 chapters of the Quran.

The total number of letters of these last words is 619

619 is the 114 th prime number.


 Chapter number - last word - number of letters

(https://i.imgur.com/Sc6Vs6W.png)


- List of prime numbers up to 120 th

(https://i.imgur.com/hwiYldl.png)


---


The last word of which the number of letters is a prime number ( i.e. 3, 5, 7 )

The sum of these letters is 285

285 = 19 x 15

(https://i.imgur.com/E9f90Oi.png)



Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Salaam,


 

        The last word of each chapter of the 29 chapters with initial letters of the Quran.

        An interesting observation about the last words of the 29 chapters with initial letters.
        - The total number of letters of these last words is 171


        - The total number of letters of the last words of the first 19 chapters with initial letters is 114


(https://i.imgur.com/L8Y2257.png)





        The 29 chapters with initial letters and the last letter of their 2743 verses

        - The 29 chapters with initial letters of the Quran consist of 2743 verses, the last letter of these verses consist of 19 different letters.

(https://i.imgur.com/hofKisZ.png)




        Source:

        The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
        http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
        or
        https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

        -Quran : Uthmani Script.


        والله اعلم
        Allah knows best.

       
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 22, 2020, 08:26:30 AM
Salaam,



https://youtu.be/V1spL9AGt4A

(https://i.imgur.com/hiksuvB.png)


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on April 28, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
Salaam,



https://youtu.be/azzZx7oO-EU

(https://i.imgur.com/UsJCTZD.png)


https://airandspace.si.edu/explore-and-learn/topics/apollo/apollo-program/landing-missions/apollo11-facts.cfm


Gregorian to Hijri Calender (July 21, 1969) :

https://www.islamicfinder.org/islamic-date-converter/

https://www.searchtruth.com/hijri/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: ibn_a on May 03, 2020, 02:01:04 AM
Salaam,




Number 13 and 31 in the Quran.

In chapter 55 Al-Rahman, which is composed of 78 verses,
there is a verse that is numerically distinguished between the verses of the Quran, it is the verse :

Which, then, of your Sustainer’s powers can you disavow?
فباي الا ربكما تكذبان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/13/default.htm


- This verse is repeated in chapter Al-Rahman 31 times.
The first time this verse is mentioned is in verse number 13, reverse of 31.

-----

- Verse 31 in this chapter has 13 different letters.

55:31 [ONE DAY] We shall take you to task, O you sin-laden two!
سنفرغ لكم ايه الثقلان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/31/default.htm

(https://i.imgur.com/CHMbD3p.png)




- The repeated verses ( 31 verses ) are surrounded by 13 verses.

12 verses before verse 13 ( first time where the repeated verse is mentioned ),

and 1 verse after verse 77 ( last time where the repeated verse is mentioned ).

(https://i.imgur.com/rrTh3A9.png)


- The sum of the 12 verse numbers before verse 13 is 78, same as the last verse number:

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 13  ... 77  78

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 = 78


-The total number of verses of chapter Al-Rahman = 78

78 = 13 x 6
-----

The total number of words in chapter Al-Rahman = 351

351 = 13 × 27
-----

The number of letters of the non repeated verses ( 47 verses ) = 1027

1027 = 13 × 79

-----



Seen the indication in chapter Al-Rahman about 13 and 31

- Chapter Al-Rahman is the 55 th chapter in the Quran.

- The 55 th chapter from the end of the Quran is chapter 60 and has 13 verses.

This is the only chapter which has 13 verses

- The only chapter which has 31 verses is chapter 76, this is the 39 th chapter from the end of the Quran.

39 =  13 x 3

-----


- The name Al-Rahman is mentioned in the Quran 169 times if the Basmalah's are included.

169 = 13 x 13

Note also reverse:

961 = 31 x 31


الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious / The Origin

(https://i.imgur.com/78DHOmm.png)



---------

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/1/default.htm
الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/
علم القران  /  ʿallama Al-Qur'aan
 taught /made known / marked the Quran

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total  number of verses before
chapter Al-Rahman is 1485 + 4901 = 6386

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total number of verses after
chapter Al-Rahman is  5015 + 1257 = 6272

6386 - 6272 = 114  i.e the numer of chapters in the Quran.

AND

Chapter 55 Al-Rahman has 78 verses.
55 + 78 = 133 = 114 + 19

About 19 see chapter 74:30-31


(https://i.imgur.com/qLWI2pg.png)


------


Other observations about number 13 and 31

- The total number of verses of each of the 114 chapters of the Quran sorted from smallest to largest.


Note the reverse of the numbers:  26 and 62   --   13 and 31

(https://i.imgur.com/uU6eCmr.png)

-----



An other example of reverse concerning chapter 13 and  chapter 31

Chapter 13 has 43 verses.

Chapter 31 has 34 verses.


-----


Number 13  and number 31 are also related to number 19.

From number 13 to number 31 there are 19 numbers.

(https://i.imgur.com/5Cck9H5.png)



Note also:

-The first verse of the Quran has 19 letters:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

-The last verse of the Quran has 13 letters:

من الجنه والناس



-----

source: (arabic) Abdullah Jalghoum :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir11772/#.WuSF5X8uCCg
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir15669/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir16257/
https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_-_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_   page 168-169

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on May 03, 2020, 02:59:44 AM
Salaam,




Number 13 and 31 in the Quran.

In chapter 55 Al-Rahman, which is composed of 78 verses,
there is a verse that is numerically distinguished between the verses of the Quran, it is the verse :

Which, then, of your Sustainer’s powers can you disavow?
فباي الا ربكما تكذبان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/13/default.htm


- This verse is repeated in chapter Al-Rahman 31 times.
The first time this verse is mentioned is in verse number 13, reverse of 31.

-----

- Verse 31 in this chapter has 13 different letters.

55:31 [ONE DAY] We shall take you to task, O you sin-laden two!
سنفرغ لكم ايه الثقلان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/31/default.htm

(https://i.imgur.com/CHMbD3p.png)




- The repeated verses ( 31 verses ) are surrounded by 13 verses.

12 verses before verse 13 ( first time where the repeated verse is mentioned ),

and 1 verse after verse 77 ( last time where the repeated verse is mentioned ).

(https://i.imgur.com/rrTh3A9.png)


- The sum of the 12 verse numbers before verse 13 is 78, same as the last verse number:

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 13  ... 77  78

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 = 78


-The total number of verses of chapter Al-Rahman = 78

78 = 13 x 6
-----

The total number of words in chapter Al-Rahman = 351

351 = 13 × 27
-----

The number of letters of the non repeated verses ( 47 verses ) = 1027

1027 = 13 × 79

-----



Seen the indication in chapter Al-Rahman about 13 and 31

- Chapter Al-Rahman is the 55 th chapter in the Quran.

- The 55 th chapter from the end of the Quran is chapter 60 and has 13 verses.

This is the only chapter which has 13 verses

- The only chapter which has 31 verses is chapter 76, this is the 39 th chapter from the end of the Quran.

39 =  13 x 3

-----


- The name Al-Rahman is mentioned in the Quran 169 times if the Basmalah's are included.

169 = 13 x 13

Note also reverse:

961 = 31 x 31


الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious / The Origin

(https://i.imgur.com/78DHOmm.png)



---------

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/1/default.htm
الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/
علم القران  /  ʿallama Al-Qur'aan
 taught /made known / marked the Quran

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total  number of verses before
chapter Al-Rahman is 1485 + 4901 = 6386

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total number of verses after
chapter Al-Rahman is  5015 + 1257 = 6272

6386 - 6272 = 114  i.e the numer of chapters in the Quran.

AND

Chapter 55 Al-Rahman has 78 verses.
55 + 78 = 133 = 114 + 19

About 19 see chapter 74:30-31


(https://i.imgur.com/qLWI2pg.png)


------


Other observations about number 13 and 31

- The total number of verses of each of the 114 chapters of the Quran sorted from smallest to largest.


Note the reverse of the numbers:  26 and 62   --   13 and 31

(https://i.imgur.com/uU6eCmr.png)

-----



An other example of reverse concerning chapter 13 and  chapter 31

Chapter 13 has 43 verses.

Chapter 31 has 34 verses.


-----


Number 13  and number 31 are also related to number 19.

From number 13 to number 31 there are 19 numbers.

(https://i.imgur.com/5Cck9H5.png)



Note also:

-The first verse of the Quran has 19 letters:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

-The last verse of the Quran has 13 letters:

من الجنه والناس



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source: (arabic) Abdullah Jalghoum :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir11772/#.WuSF5X8uCCg
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir15669/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir16257/
https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_-_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_   page 168-169

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace...

Excellent....  Speechless...

Look at the difference to this thread and your previous thread... This is totally within quran and that is outside Quran...

Now this is a coincidence for some and some will come up to negate it... But keep up the good work dear brother...

 :bravo:...
What else is there within this quran...
Now does such discovery increase faith of believers or make them come up with something fragile to nullify it... Let's wait and see..
Thank you for sharing... That's worth reading.. God bless you
Title: Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
Post by: jkhan on June 26, 2020, 08:42:47 PM
 
Peace...

Check and verify below pls ...
We all know in 29 chapters Arabic initials are used.. That is to say mere Arabic Letters are used at the beginning...

Every chapter has beginning letter and ending letter... For example chapter 01 .. Beginning letter = B and Ending letter = N
Beginning letters used = 15
Ending letters used = 14

So that is 15 + 14 = 29

The values of beginning letters is = 8 6 1
And values of Ending letters is = 2 2 8 2

8 + 6 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 8 + 2 = 29

Further beginning 8 + 6 + 1 = 15 (15 letters used)

Ending 2 + 2 + 8 + 2 = 14 (14 letters used)

Note: in above calculation chapter 9 is considered 127 verses leaving controversial two end verses..