Free Minds

General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: Noon waalqalami on April 05, 2018, 11:30:07 PM

Title: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 05, 2018, 11:30:07 PM
Peace, a user messaged asking question based on Layth's article ?

http://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

43:19 in Hafs is ُادَبِع? Ibaad? / In Warsh it is ندِع? Inda? without the ?Alif? and with a ?Nwn? instead of the ?Ba?.

There is no word in Qur'an with letter sequence ? عِن

Likewise there's no word in Qur'an 3inda ?has? ? عِندَ

http://www.tengugo.com/arabic/arabic1/arabic_1/part_2___useful_arabic/lesson_10c_possession_new#andii

See example manuscripts (if time permits investigate other verses); also note verse is offset by one less since initialed verses e.g. 43:1 حم ha meem were not counted as separate verses in oldest manuscripts; that's later innovation.

Berlin State Library ~85% of total text dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)

This manuscript mainly written no alif except scribe used to distinguish ʿibādi with ʿibādu perhaps?

43:15 عباده ʿibādihi (written with alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)

(https://s9.postimg.org/ubkxh6svj/Ahlwardt_305_ch43v14-30.jpg)

Likewise The British Library?s oldest Qur?ān manuscript, Or.2165, dates from the eighth century.
~2/3 of text: Sūrah 7:40 - Sūrah 9:96; Sūrah 10: 9 - Sūrah 39:48; Sūrah 40:63 - Sūrah 43:71

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_f007v

43:15 عبده ʿibādihi (no alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)

(https://s9.postimg.org/ro02kgubz/British_Quran_ch43v13-32.jpg)

Likewise The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 CE with 99% probability.

https://archive.org/stream/SanaManuscripts-unesscoCdImages/SanaManuscriptsUnesscoCd#page/n9/mode/2up

43:15 عبده ʿibādihi (no alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)

(https://s9.postimg.org/m9woyruj3/Sana_Qur_an_ch43v13-32.jpg)



Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: The Sardar on April 06, 2018, 07:11:03 AM
It's good someone investigated the "versions" of Al-Quran. I never bought in to that argument. Salam/Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 06, 2018, 04:34:49 PM
Here?s another 91:15 ولا and not ىخاف feared عقبها consequence its

https://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

Quote
91:15 in Hafs is ?Wa La? / In Warsh it is ?Fa La? with a ?Fa? instead of a ?Waw?.

Gotthelf Bergstr??er Archive: "Saray Medina 1a" (= Istanbul, Topkapı Sarayı M?zesi: M 1)
Late 1st/early 2nd century before 800 CE looks like written with fa (see last line).
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=56

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1925 (Ahlwardt 364)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 2nd line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=480

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1943 (Ahlwardt 365)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 1st line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=481

Rampur Raza Library: No. 1, Korankodex (ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib zugeschrieben)
1st/7th century clearly written with wa 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=878

Cairo, al-Maktaba al-Markaziyya li-l-Maḫṭūṭāt al-Islāmiyya: Great Koran Codex
Late Umayyad before 700 CE clearly with wa (last line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=170
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 08, 2018, 11:31:49 AM
To disappoint numerologists, not about hafs/warsh, verses numbering old manuscripts were different.

1. initialed verses الم alif lam meem etc., not counted and consistently together with next verse.

7:1 المص alif lam meem saad (no end verse mark counted with next verse) 7:2 كتب book انزل descends الىك to you فلا so not ىكن beeth فى in صدرك breast your حرج critical منه from it لتنذر to thou warn به with it وذكرى and reminder للمومنىن to the believers

(https://s9.postimg.org/uwk6803kv/Ahlwardt_305_ch6v160-ch7v9.jpg)

2. verse counts different on numerous chapters; work in progress can tell by end 10th verse marker.

Chapter 3 was 201 verses not 200 besides 3:1 الم alif lam meem (counted as single verse with 3:2)
Chapter 5 was 122 verses not 120
Chapter 8 was 77 verses not 75   
Chapter 9 was 130 verses not 129
Chapter 19 was 99 verses not 98 besides 19:1 كهىعص Kaaf Ha Ya Ain Sad (counted as single with 19:2)
Chapter 20 was 139 verses not 135 besides 20:1 طه ta ha (counted as single verse along with 20:2)

(https://s9.postimg.org/sqpvdlfkv/Ahlwardt_305_ch9v127-ch10v5.jpg)



Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on April 08, 2018, 08:54:07 PM
exactly  :handshake:

people who are experts in math can atleast see this clearly .. on the other hand a person who is unaware about math cant understand what  is the purpose of algebra, integration, matrix, geometry, calculus , when we are solving them in book we dnt really understand what is the purpose of doing it but .. infact all that we see(around us from buildings to toys) is based on pure mathematics . and 19 number theory has nothing to do with simple math.

what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 13, 2018, 02:19:23 PM
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..

Peace, it's nonsense (19 is a prime like 11, 29, etc.,) verses were not revealed with verse numbers.

89:1 والفجر and/by the dawn
89:2 ولىال and the nights عشر ten
89:3 والشفع and the even والوتر and the odd

1.   scribes used an odd-even system to keep count like an accounting ledger
2.   old manuscripts clearly had different counts using same text and system
3.   initially chapters الم alif lam meem etc., not counted as separate verses
4.   changed ~100 years afterwards using the same "text" odd-even system
5.   system had an odd-even balance symmetry which is easily accomplished

see examples chapter 8 with 2 extra verses (8:77) not 8:75 -- large dot end 10 verses marker.

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71/handschrift/13

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/29gha8w.jpg)

Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 331
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71?handschrift=32

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/6xvlmq.jpg)
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on April 18, 2018, 06:55:12 AM
Confirmation 4 old manuscripts ch 8 was 77 verses (2 extra, same script) not 75 like today.

Basically verses 8:36 and 8:42 were split into two see manuscripts posted above and below.

Cambridge, Cambridge University Library: Add. 1125
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/36?handschrift=282

8:36 ان indeed الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ىنفقون spending اموالهم wealth theirs لىصدوا to hinder they of عن about سبىل path الله the god فسىنفقونها so shall spending they it ثم furthermore تكون being علىهم upon them حسره regret ثم furthermore ىغلبون conquered/defeated being (end verse)

(Start new verse) والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones كفروا reject they of الى to جهنم abyss ىحشرون gathered being

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/e6b19e.jpg)

Cambridge, Cambridge University Library: Add. 1125
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/42?handschrift=282

8:42 اذ when انتم are you بالعدوه in the enemy الدنىا the world وهم and they بالعدوه in the enemy القصوى the top والركب and the caravan اسفل below منكم among you ولو and in case تواعدتم made appointment you لاختلفتم surely divergences/fails you فى in المىعاد the promise ولكن and however لىقضى to decreed الله the god امرا directive of كان be مفعولا fulfilled of (end verse)

(Start new verse) لىهلك liyahlika/that destroyed من whom هلك perished عن about بىنه clear proof وىحىى and yahya من who حى live عن about بىنه clear proof وان and indeed الله the god لسمىع surely hearer علىم knower

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/2qlqqt0.jpg)
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: The Sardar on September 09, 2018, 05:19:30 AM
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 09, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.

There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: The Sardar on September 09, 2018, 10:49:44 AM
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.

There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
Yeah even the claim of Aramiac language against the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 09, 2018, 01:58:08 PM
Peace All.
 This question will remain no matter how many manuscripts you study, or they differ in spelling and numbering:
Which copy is the original copy of the prophet?  Evidence?

As for probabilities, Mathematics is the only Science that can give 100% proof.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 09, 2018, 08:09:18 PM

Which copy is the original copy of the prophet?  Evidence

copy from rk
evidence is verses of chap nine is added later and the numbering is checked by 19 formula.

unique aspects of formula i think just one is enough to believe

it never changes the pattern/method/style
wishful thinking works and make you feel happy.

happiness is all what we can get from it. and i think one whos happy is richest person in
this world.

i just dnt understand why people beat around the bush.

and i want to break something but no hard feelings
 i ve seen the debates between the pillars of number nineteen vs two blessed minds guys like noon and ayman. both of you knock these pillars out and audience saw it how strategically they change their sides giving no answer whatsoever. still they want debate at that time we have quality debates atleast.

but now to b honest the nineteen followers have issues with their own simple original mathematics  :rotfl: atleast some comedy is going on here

number 19 is a big joke of nineteenth century but sometimes jokes take the life of people moral some jokes are dangerous specially number jokes lol

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 09, 2018, 08:21:12 PM
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but

from one master copy

which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.

 the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed  or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings  :confused:
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best seller

hafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: The Sardar on September 09, 2018, 09:20:05 PM
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but

from one master copy

which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.

the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed  or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings  :confused:
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best seller

hafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures


56:77 انه لقرءان كريم
Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
It is an honorable Qur'an.

56:78 فى كتاب مكنون
Fee kitabin maknoonin
In a protected Book.

85:21 بل هو قرءان مجيد
Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun
No,it is a glorious Qur'an.

85:22 فى لوح محفوظ
Fee lawhin mahfoothin
In a tablet, preserved.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 10, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
Peace Imran.
I keep it simple here.
1-So you will never know which copy was sent originally. Are you satisfied with that? Only there will always be doubt with your method.
2- So GOD has not preserved the original copy?

3-Why would "the future belong to GOD, wait..." mean to you? Are you still waiting for something about Qoran?

4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.
Or in your opinion who was this "witness from Beni Israeel" and what did he witness?
...Let us leave it at this simple stage for now.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 11, 2018, 12:38:37 AM
4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.

peace, "context is your friend" refers to witness at that time about revelation not numerology.

12:26 قال said هى she راودتنى sought to seduce me عن about نفسى myself وشهد and witness شاهد witness من from اهلها family hers ان if كان be قمىصه shirt his قد torn من from قبل front فصدقت so sincere she وهو and he من of الكذبىن the liars

46:9-10 قل say ما not كنت am I بدعا innovation of من among الرسل the messengers وما and not ادرى knows I ما what ىفعل doeth بى with me ولا and not بكم with you ان indeed اتبع follows الا only ما what ىوحى inspired الى to me وما and not انا I am الا except نذىر warner مبىن clear قل say اراىتم have seen you ان if كان be/is من from عند near/with الله the god وكفرتم and reject you به in it وشهد and witness شاهد witness من from بنى sons/children اسرىىل Israel على on مثله similitude it فامن so believes (he) واستكبرتم and acts arrogant you? ان indeed الله the god لا not ىهدى guided العهم the folk الظلمىن the wrongdoers
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 11, 2018, 02:05:33 AM
Peace Noon.
I think even you know that the similarity of the two revelations here is in the numerical composition, why:
1- Who is this witness?
2- What did he witness to be similar?

My take is the witness is Rabbi Judah the Pious (11th Century A.D.), who discovered the same 19-based mathematical code in intact fragments of the Jewish scripture ( NOTE: The subject of 46:10 is saying "What if it is from GOD.." some sort of clear proof that Qoran is from GOD?!)

You give me your take on it(46:10?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: huruf on September 11, 2018, 03:04:35 AM
I do not know whether it was in this thread or another, somebody said that there are may be 20 different versions of the Qur'an.

My questions: which are those versions and what do the differences consist of?

Are any of those versions contradictory to one another?

Like a poster in another forum ferences, between hafs and warsh are very slight, like a synonym instead of another syninym, which give different nuances but which basically do not alter the fundamntal meaning.

So can anybody here quote two different versions of Qur'an, arabic Qur'an which differ to the point of being contradictory?

Salaam
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 11, 2018, 03:39:45 AM
Sister huruf, that is a very good point. And I agree that the differences are not impacting on the context . GOD s message is in all of them intact.

Nevertheless ,GOD has answered those who claim there are differences ,hence it is not from GOD.

It is clear there are verses in Qoran that point to GOD s design and perfection. GOD has sent words and preserved them in a master tablet. GOD has then issued a challenge in Qoran(In words and numerical composition) to those who still argue Qoran is not from GOD.
Of course there are also those who know /claim it is from GOD but refuse to accept the "number composition", claiming it is coincidence. GOD also knows this, that why the  verses are there in Qoran.
All GOD is saying to all of us is that His scripture is "perfect and planned". GOD does not do errors. coincidence or mishaps.
GOD is perfect and does not err.
Those who listen to the message, accept it and apply it in their life do not have to worry about numbers or differences. Our minimum salvation depends on our deeds and intentions.
Fro me the instinct inside me is shouting this Qoran(When I read/study it) is from GOD regardless of numbers, proofs or differences in mushafs.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: huruf on September 11, 2018, 05:20:08 AM
Thank you, good logic,
I agree with you on what we shoud do with the Qur'an.

In my previous post I forgot to mention, that this friend poster I am referring too also said, that in fact those differences are provided by God Himself inthe sense that we may take it either way or both ways or the different ways which ay be complementary.

Reminds me of two translations of ra'uf into Spanish, one was a bit surprising, but looking at it carefully you realised that it was a nuance that might be lost int the other translation although on the whole the latter could be better or more to the point. But without that other more "surprising" translation in fact the reader was missing something.

As to numbers, myself I do not have any trouble believing that there is a numerical pattern in Qur'an, in fact I would be surprised if there was not. I mean, it is God, which computer in the highest fever could match that? Did He not create numbers and all ways of knowledge?


When it comes to which pattern is there in Qur'an, there may be many not just one. I do not know.

I do not have any quarrel with anybody attempting to find any pattern.

On the other hand I see in it a danger, which is the same danger I see when people try to pin on the Qur'an the latest (at  that point) scientific knowledge. It can only be tentative. Knowledge evolves continually and we may tie the Qur'an to something which the Qur'an does not tie itself too, and that ends up turning people against Qur'an because a later knowledge goes against the previous knowledge and the pin the Qur'an to that previous knowledge.

I am sure the Qur'an is scientifically correct, but I doubt very much that we or when we do get it right from the Qur'an, because we are already molded to a previous knowledge and we impose this knowledge ont he Qur'an but we do not extract it from it. or we may feel enthusiastical about some theory and pin it on the Qur'an but in fact it may not be such a great theory after some time. We do not have to tie the Qur'an. We may count on it or get ideas from it, but e should not tie to our ork with such ideas. Qur'an is not there to teach science but to teach us to love knowledge, beauty and truth. The rest is for us to go through our different yihads.

Salaam
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 11, 2018, 09:23:32 AM
Yes sister huruf. Agreed.
There may be other secrets to come from Qoran in future. God s words do not run out.

I know my brothers and sisters here are discussing in good spirit and fairly.

I hope ,at least those who know me from what I say ,are not taking my words as hostile ,personal or as idolising numbers or Qoran or anything other than my LORD Alone. I am stating my opinion and what I see.
I also look at what others say, if I failed to see their point of view it is not because I ignore what they say, but because, like them, I have not agreed with their opinion.
I do not see anything written by others as hostiles or against me personally. It is their right of expression like I have mine.

In the end, it is what we get from Qoran and how we lead our life that is a priority.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 12, 2018, 07:23:39 AM
@ sister huruf

calculations and mathematics is a fact and yeh God is the creator of mathematics and the formulas of all mathematical issues are generated by God for humans.

But in all of it we need to understand the math of God is not = math of human
when the followers of RK will understand this thing they will understand the real math

so i agree with you the math of God is not only in quran but in everyfield of life math and calculations exist example if you try to built a building with wrong calculation the building will fell down same thing happen with the code believers prophet rk his wrong math took his life what a poor boy lol.

about the versions of quran even the article on freeminds got discrepencies in it the first time i read the hafs/warsh bullshit i lost my interest in it coz he was saying the numbered bismillah is the method of checkin its hafs or warsh. but to b honest the person research is weak in very fields like we already knows the earliest manuscripts proved therez nothing like numbering and vocal and chap names there. so again i ll say bring all versions and see the difference in words and meanings and then compare all of them together to see how many different qurans we have.  and if u add all those later version by diff publishers u ll have atleast 10000 versions ( but from one speech) who claimed to have that speech from the creator of universe.

@ GL you need to read three four times to really understand what i was on about

about real quran and real human we go back to time to see things how they get evolved.
you are asking me about original copy sorry to say i dnt have an access to God supercomputer where that copy is saved in whatever language or communications style.

about this quran what we reading today generated from a speech not from numbers so speech is to consider while finding a difference not numbers.

now you tell me by erasing some parts of speech adding numbers in to make a statement on the behalf of secondary sources makes a quran original ?

see my two years old post in which i told u how things get evolve quran also evolved by man made things and these man made made things are for every individual

even in school we provided by a same book but every student book is different than others by their own addings and highlighting with the help of pencil/pen to make that book understand. 

silly questions always generate silly answers
all code beleivers answers about real math is silly and their questions are silly too which make a real mathematician feel funny same what i feel.

the only question from me is why your prophet(rk)never knew all aspects of his own miracle  :muscle:  and he change his pattern consistently.

example look what he did with algebra  :elektro: :hail :rotfl: :yay:

double multiple of 19  AKA square of 19 hahaha to fit the calaculation in a way he wanted wtf hahahaha

he raped algebra by his stupidity

God bless you always.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 12, 2018, 11:22:41 AM
Imran. I understand you The number composition gets on your nerve.

But I disagree with you. I do not follow RK or any human. I am checking everything myself.

May be your maths is so advanced you probably think I will not understand it since you have not provided it.

All I have seen in your posts is your opinion agreeing with others . Does that mean you follow others?

I hope you see what I am saying to you also.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: huruf on September 13, 2018, 04:15:00 AM
There is proverb, portuguese, I think, which says:

God writes straight with twisted lines

Which I find it is another way of saying "everything is for good", even bad is for good, it depends on what we do with it.

And there is also a sufi tale whcih says a cheikh told a disciple to take a formidable stone and put it on the top of the mountain close by.

Years spent the disciple and did not get the damned stone even beyond close to the bottom and he complained the cheikh about his powerlessness to do what he was told.

The cheikh smiled (the bastard) and retorted:
And who needs that stone on top of that mountain? Nobody,
But look at yourself, you were flimsy, without any stamina, no muscle no nothing. And look at yourself, you are strong, capable, disciplined, master of yourself...
There is your mountain which you have conquered.

More or less, that is the gist of it.

Everything is for good. Even the useless is for good. Even mistakes are for good. We may be wrong but those wrongs are always the opportunity for something right we had not even imagined. Everywhere is God's kingdom, there is no where that it is not God's kingdom. Wherever we turn there is the face of God. God is the master teacher and wonder worker and shower.

We should not refrain from doing what we consider a good idea for fear of not being right. We will get something right even if it is not what we expected. Those are the gifts of God for our trust in life, in existence, in the ONE MIRACLE which is everything.

So numbers may be wrong, may be right, may be both, but if we trust that numbers will bring us something, God will give us our numbers, the lucky ones for us.

Subhanallah and alhamdulillah

Salaam
 
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 13, 2018, 04:54:04 AM

example look what he did with algebra


@ GL

please before passing the statements we should always look at the facts in hand
 i provide you something but i feel u dnt have any answer for that or you dnt know real algebra?

thats why i already gave u hint in advance to read my posts three four times.

thats why i said ?couple of years ago the debates were atleast worthy to read but now a days it looks funny. ?

God bless you
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 13, 2018, 05:07:14 AM

So numbers may be wrong, may be right, may be both, but if we trust that numbers will bring us something, God will give us our numbers, the lucky ones for us.

Subhanallah and alhamdulillah

Salaam


salam habibti, subhanAllah and mashAllah on your purposeful and meaningful words a lot for people who can ponder on every aspect of issue.

i see people who ask questions about number 19 they ask about what Good a number 19 can possibly bring ?  any benefit ?

they dnt have the answer apart from same beating around the bush thats y i m bored to be honest.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 13, 2018, 11:31:21 AM
Peace Imran.
What benefit code 19 brought? I see you want an answer to this question!

You have to specify then?
Benefit to the soul? benefit to the mind? benefit to enjoy this life? benefit to salvation? benefit to understand Qoran?
Think properly before you answer!!!
I can ask a similar question:
What benefit does the actual composition/arrangement of the surahs as we have them bring? Why do we have Qoran in this present arrangement?

Look brother you say we have many versions, and some differ in spellings, some differ in words some in how many verses altogether in total.
So did GOD send all these different versions? Did GOD finish sending the warsh version ,then carried on with a little more verses to complete the hafs?
Or did GOD sent one verse at a time until the whole(1 book) was complete?
If that is the case ,then GOD sent one version!

Do we have the means to find out (This generation) or did all generations before us had the means?
How do we find out? Would you agree about the three ways?:
1-Find all the versions(including the one circulating at the time of the prophet ) and do a comparison.

2-Filter all the true history ,use this and logic to come up with the copy

3-Use Mathematics (This generation have the means) . See if GOD has used mathematics to lock His scripture (This is the only fool proof way). The best way to write /dictate a book and make sure it is preserved totally for ever(every letter, every word, every chapter ) is to lock it mathematically.
Brother, think about  this kind of 100% preservation?

Of course you may add other methods if you can think of some?

Actually the number structure is just part of the arrangement of how the surahs have been ordered the way we have them today. So what benefit do you expect apart from the 100% way of preserving the text?
Or are you expecting a new ritual called code 19 ?
You see brother that question has no meaningin salvation terms. The benefit is in the message.

Certainty about the message leads to following /taking the message seriously . This is the benefit :being certain it is from GOD.
Of course you will say some are certain without numbers. Then all of us work hard towards our salvation and the issue is not so important.
But the argument of preservation is a very strong one/
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 13, 2018, 06:28:21 PM
My take is the witness is Rabbi Judah the Pious (11th Century A.D.), who discovered the same 19-based mathematical code in intact fragments of the Jewish scripture

peace, poor reading comprehension; again use "context and "tense" not auto-insert future numerologist.

3-Use Mathematics ... make sure it is preserved totally for ever(every letter, every word, every chapter ) is to lock it mathematically.

THEN show example lock verse 20:1 طه ta ha?
ELSE do not repeat false claim without proof!

1. Don?t come back we discussed since you or anyone NEVER showed proof!
2. Don?t divert with questions before simply answering, NO you can't is fine!

BTW, in the oldest manuscripts it's consistently written as single verse 20:1-2

20:1 طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى to thou discontent

University of Birmingham Qur?an manuscript among world?s oldest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-HDFiC2boQ

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=56

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=141

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=163

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=173


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 13, 2018, 11:48:06 PM
Peace Noon.
Are you aware of this:
https://submission.org/verify_writing_of_Alif_Yaa_and_Taa.html

Which "T" is it in chapter 20? Or are you going to argue for both "T" and "H"?

All these anomalies have been discussed in numerous threads with you and others.

There is more to come with the perfection of Mathematics( Quantum computers will also play their part in the future).
My maths and yours are  primitive compared to GOD s.
Brother Noon ,you are very insisting after all these years, but your expertise (Maths) that you are claiming will turn  against you .
Wait ,we are also waiting!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 14, 2018, 01:40:12 PM
Which "T" is it in chapter 20?

peace, use magnifier
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

answer question use interlock/code or whatever to lock 20:1 طه ta ha?

it's ok to admit you don't know what you're talking about move on.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 14, 2018, 01:58:14 PM
peace, use magnifier
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

answer question use interlock/code or whatever to lock 20:1 طه ta ha?

it's ok to admit you don't know what you're talking about move on.


hahahahaha  :rotfl: exactly
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 14, 2018, 11:46:31 PM
Peace Noon.
Why do you want my count? You need to check it. Here is how I counted so you can do the same:
https://submission.org/verify_how_to_count_Quranic_initials.html

Your question is not honest. You want to argue the case like you always do.
Besides you claim to know "19" better than anyone else. Are you stuck?
You do your count and I do mine.
I use hafs version and I am satisfied with my count.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 15, 2018, 01:51:05 AM
Why do you want my count?

peace, didn't ask you to count letters or links to dumb websites.

it was asked show how it's locked to chapter verse 20:1 طه ta ha ?

is it combined single verse like in oldest manuscripts -- why not ?

20:1 طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى to thou discontent
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 15, 2018, 06:20:14 AM


it was asked show how it's locked to chapter verse 20:1 طه ta ha ?

is it combined single verse like in oldest manuscripts -- why not ?



noon  :bravo: you smashed the idol name as code 19

theres a saying in my culture.

?becoming FOOL is more entertaining then making someone FOOL?
about this saying FOOL need time to understand the proverb first then the purpose of proverb although its a deep saying got meanings in it...
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 15, 2018, 06:27:25 AM

I use hafs version and I am satisfied with my count.


peace GL

intresting to know HAFS version hmm ,,,
can i ask in your version there is any 128 and 129 verse in chapter 8/9?

provide evidence of oldest manuscript in which these two verses missing ?

if not then your and all code 19 claims are fake as it based on proven lie.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 07:28:53 AM
Peace Noon.
The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.
That old manuscript is not the original just like you are claiming other manuscripts with T H as a separate verse are not.

You provide evidence it is the original copy and you will have a point.
If on the other hand you are claiming T H are not initials then provide their meaning?

Are you sure you do not see the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 07:34:53 AM
Peace Imran.
Should it not be the other way around?
You provide ,with evidence, the original copy of the prophet with 128 and 129 in surah 9 in it and the matter will close.
Much simpler for you.
If on the other hand you say the high probability is that majority of  mushafs contain 128 and 129,then I say the mathematical structure has a 100% probability that they do not.
Yours against mine?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 15, 2018, 10:16:09 AM
The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.

peace, here are three of the oldest manuscripts -- show errors?

20:1 طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى to thou discontent

University of Birmingham radiocarbon dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Ma VI 165 University of T?bingen radiocarbon dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
~1800 verses 17:35 - 36:57 (~28% of total text)  
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107

Berlin State Library radiocarbon dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
~85% of total text Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=163
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 15, 2018, 10:59:31 AM
Peace Noon.
I could also ask you to show an error here:
طه
ما أَنزَلنا عَلَيكَ القُرءانَ لِتَشقىٰ
Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.
Old manuscript does not mean correct manuscript without errors. Unless of course one can bring evidence it is the original copy.
Or are you assuming old manuscripts have no errors?
This is one good reason why a mathematical structure will solve it 100%.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 16, 2018, 12:48:54 PM
طه
ما أَنزَلنا عَلَيكَ القُرءانَ لِتَشقىٰ
Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.

Peace, show one earlier than 200+ years after revelation? (BTW, posting for benefit of others)

1.   Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library: dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281
20:1-2 (single verse) طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

2.   T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek: Ma VI 165 dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107
20:1-2 (single verse) طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

3.   Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305) 662-765 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163
20:1-2 (single verse) طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=163
42:1-3 (single verse) حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise

4.   Gotthelf-Bergstr??er-Archiv: "Saray Medina 1a" Istanbul, Topkapı Sarayı before 800 CE?
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=56
20:1-2 (single verse) طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=56
42:1-3 (single verse) حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise

5.   Kodex Samarkand (Faksimiledruck Sankt Petersburg 1905) 700-850 CE
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=141
20:1-2 (single verse) طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

6.   Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 328 (b) before 750 CE
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=157
42:1-3 (single verse) حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise

7.   Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 335 800 CE
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=37
42:1-3 (single verse) حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise



Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 16, 2018, 04:53:11 PM
peace Gl

PLZ read my post 34.
you missed something. ?

you claimed you are satisfied on your count and you said HAFZ but on same time you are rejecting verses (128-129) which were present in the oldest manuscript (any hafz) found in earth YOU GET IT now.  ;)

so its mean your theory hold no water.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 16, 2018, 11:09:21 PM
Peace Imran.
You are missing the most important thing here:
The oldest manuscript? Is it the original copy  that the prophet brought?
Please go over the evidence for me if I missed that?
Or is it you who do not understand my posts.
Claiming it is the oldest  is very easy to do. How accurate is our Science of dating 100%?
Actually ,judging by what happened in history, the only fool proof method that preserves the text is the impossible to imitate number structure of the text!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 16, 2018, 11:23:45 PM
Peace Noon.
I have not seen any evidence that the oldest manuscript you have is the copy of the prophet.
Of course all mushafs including the oldest manuscript we have is  Qoran add or take away the errors.
This oldest manuscript could also have errors ,like all the others, if it is not the original one?

The fool proof method we have TODAY for checking this, is Mathematics.
 It seems we are going around in a circle brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 17, 2018, 06:56:37 AM
@ GL

i know its hard to accept the defeat.
only very few people till date accepted it whole heartly and i m sure you are not one of them.

Good luck

look again read my post you claimed something ?
burden of proof is on the one who claims and his own claim goes against him very simple mathematics 2+2= 4

you said you count from HAFZ
i asked the hafz you claim got 128-129 in it ?

very simple like 2+2 so now i feel like rk your senses are blind to see your deafeat well i think its time to leave you alone and hopefully one day you will wake up from imaginary code what you guys still never understand.

if you wana continue discussion answer my questions instead of beating around the bush.

NOTE if its possible when reading my posts take your time and understand the questions first. it will help you understanding what we are on about.

hint i aksed you about the oldest ( HAFS) YOU GET IT i m trying to teach simple math to you if u can only understand.

God bless you
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 17, 2018, 08:20:38 AM
Peace Imran.
I read your posts.
So you what is the history of this oldest HAFZ you are claiming ? Is it the original copy?
Maybe  all old copies  are with 128 and 129.
The question is: Where is the copy left by the prophet? Which old one? Does it contain 128 and 129?
Now here is the answer to your question:
Your oldest HAFZ copy is not the original copy according to the mathematical structure.
Over to you ?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 18, 2018, 02:33:34 AM
Peace Imran.
Just to clarify what I mean by "what is your history that the oldest HAFZ is from the time of the prophet".
Here is an example of another side of history:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaSY4BB-2Q

Of course history can be true or false. The Evidence needs to be solid!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 18, 2018, 10:46:24 AM
Peace Imran.
I read your posts.


Now here is the answer to your question:
Your oldest HAFZ copy is not the original copy according to the mathematical structure.
Over to you ?



hahahahahahaha  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Bold i doubt it to b honest.

Green : wrong answer plz read my post again let me help in making u understand.
Gl claimed he satisfied with count of hafz.
then the version he himself not sure either its true or false.?
so Gl claim about imaginary code have 0 evidence so far.

God bless you.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 18, 2018, 11:08:44 AM
Peace Imran.
Likewise, now read my number 45 post in this thread.Make sure you go through the link to the finish. Hopefully you will understand more of the oldest HAFZ copy?
Then I await your answer.
Remember brother, people cannot be trusted, history cannot be trusted....Mathematics is our only fool proof tool us and the next generations.
Of course GOD can be trusted 100% and GOD is guiding events.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 19, 2018, 05:53:55 AM
who claimed something me or you ?

just want to break it on you. after 4 posts of making u understand u still not understand whats goin on :elektro: :elektro: hope this work if no then patience is the key.

lets see how much more time u need for understanding what i am asking or what you are claiming?

as usual i never left my weak students in the middle of nowwhere so another example.
if a pot of milk get mixed with just one drop of urine it will make whole milk dirty isnt it ?
why all code believers drinking the milk from that dodgy pot ? (applied to all code beleivers)

i m sure u still not understand but i tried my best to make you understand.
HINT sometimes u have to ask help from God ( specially in understanding math) i use to do that lol when i waz in school and stuck in solving different problems and understanding their solution.

but if you already know whats going on. honest person is the one when he understand the questions. he takes it seriously if he or his/her superiors dnt have the answers then ( its a time to start rethinking about their imaginations of code)

look in this thread noon even asked you the core question of chap 20 but you are unable to understand what he was on about. ? he asked you something and u keep giving him same comments  :rotfl:

God bless you.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 19, 2018, 06:24:48 AM


The fool proof method we have TODAY for checking this, is Mathematics.
 

and more intresting thing is they keep changing their method of math what need to apply.
coders dnt have a consistent pattern.

method of using algebra = double multiplication of 19  :rotfl: thats how you teach ur kids algebra of quran ?

FOOL proof method  really
only problem is what is the method ?
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 19, 2018, 10:43:26 AM
Peace Imran.
I have answered both you and brother Noon.
Give your history/evidence of your oldest manuscript.
If it is the original copy at the time of the prophet,then it will be the one with no errors. The matter will be settled both ways for me and you.
Otherwise it remains a claim from you and brother Noon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: reel on September 19, 2018, 03:41:55 PM
Peace Imran.
I have answered both you and brother Noon.
Give your history/evidence of your oldest manuscript.
If it is the original copy at the time of the prophet,then it will be the one with no errors. The matter will be settled both ways for me and you.
Otherwise it remains a claim from you and brother Noon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Memorization should also be taken into consideration. It is a fact that it is impossible to erase Quran chapters from the brain once memorized. Even a long break doesn't impact it.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 19, 2018, 11:12:09 PM
Peace reel..
Unfortunately there are no recording of early memorisations to check this .
Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: huruf on September 19, 2018, 11:45:13 PM
Peace reel..

Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Not necessarily or rather not. in a orld like today's where print is cheap, paper is cheap, everything is cheap to do relie on the written word ithout any need for memory whatsoever, es very different from another orld in hich there is no print, here not necessarily everybody knos ho to read and write.

Let us not forget that during thousands of years preservation of knowledge maoungst human kin dhas been done exclusively or greatly through oral trnasmission.

In fact hen I was a child, there as still a certain love for learning literature by heart. I still remember the poetry I learn in school to recite. I loved it and I do remember every single poem i learnt. Poetru is particularly apt to rmeember since it has the rythm and musicality.

I would never  ignore oral transmission.


From all I have ben able to ascertain, the Qur'an was transmitted through two separate and simultaneous channels, oral and written. Committed to memory and commited to paper or equivalent.


Salaam
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 20, 2018, 02:48:53 AM
Peace huruf.
So there were two different memorisations:
1- During the prophet s time. As the verses were being sent.
2- After the new arrangement of the surahs,the arrangement we have today.
I am not ignoring oral transmissions.  I want to make sure the two transmissions have identical contents. A perfectly logical question to ask.
Especially when there is an issue with the history?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 21, 2018, 07:24:24 AM
Peace Imran.
I have answered both you and brother Noon.

peace GL,
 
WRONG answers , reason = either you dnt understand the question or you dnt wana understand the questions..  :yeah:


Give your history/evidence of your oldest manuscript.


MY oldest manuscript huh ?...

 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

(BTW brother NOON already provided you lot of earliest manuscripts) in which he smashed code 19 like idols lol i rate him for his hardwork ..  and about all code 19ers a curse on mathematics .. and defame for mathematics a danger for mathematics society by silly math what never found anywhere hahahaha

2 works
one by noon ( give us lot of knowlege, evolution process things and lot more)
one by coders(gives us lot of confusion, tell wrong math and algebra, making statements as fact from secondary sources and lot more things ).
 
If it is the original copy at the time of the prophet,then it will be the one with no errors. The matter will be settled both ways for me and you.

exactly lets go this way if you had that copy then you never debated on imaginary code..
if you dnt have that copy then its responsibility of the claimant to bring that copy if not then the facts of matter will be decided on the earliest manuscript found till date ...

and there is 0 evidence from earliest manuscript about your claim (NOT mY mAnuscripts)  :rotfl:


Otherwise it remains a claim from you and brother Noon.


dnt you have little bit knowledge of "LAW" ?

the burden of proof is on one who challenge the already going on LAW

read post 34 again u still not understanding and bringing these topics here but i again clear your position on debate.

"YOU claimed SOMETHING and then you contradict yourself " (all code believers need to understand this becoz its an addiction for them to contradict themselves on plenty of occasions.)

have a good day

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 21, 2018, 07:47:28 AM

Unfortunately there are no recording of early memorisations to check this .

REEL you should  know voice recorders just invented in 19th century so its false claim  :elektro: all electricity is the invention of 19th century

Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.


wrong answers again..

in my childhoood i dnt know how to read and write but i still remember my mother teach me short chapters of quran what i remember by heart till now i remember them and now i can also write them and record them with 100 % accuracy..

oral when transfer to writing become a book.. ( very simple understanding)

before you asking the proof lem me tell you something about physics and possibilty of voice recovering if coders are that intelligent they can go back to time and then retrieve the voices from prophet times (if only they can do it)

BTW i know how to retreat my data lost in my hard disk deleted by some satanist lol i m a computer guy so i know my field well..(only apply when he also deleted from recycle bin)

coders need to know their field atleast they need to know simple math how its work.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 21, 2018, 08:25:38 AM
Peace Imran.
Just give me the history of the oldest manuscript that you say exist and has no errors? Or have you not checked it?
And have you checked the link I gave you about the copy that the prophet wrote?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 21, 2018, 08:35:41 AM
Peace Imran
You say, quote:
oral when transfer to writing become a book.. ( very simple understanding)

Are you sure? Here is my question to you :
Qoran had two different arrangements: One during the time of the prophet and one after, Where are the two books then?

Is this not logical to ask brother?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 21, 2018, 12:47:12 PM
simple yes or no @ GL

who calimed something ?  you  (yes)
who need history for their claim?  You (yes)

burden of proof is on who ? you ( yes)
did u understand it all ? yes or no ( i m not sure)
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 21, 2018, 01:41:06 PM
Peace Imran.
What do you mean claim?
 I have provided you with  my take on "purify your garments" of surah 74.- i.e the mathematical structure of Qoran- and given you tools to check it yourself.
You have to do the work. Or ignore completely .
You say there is no maths code/structure, arguing with old manuscripts without bringing the history/evidence of their origin.
That is where we are brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

 
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: reel on September 21, 2018, 02:16:51 PM
Peace reel..
Unfortunately there are no recording of early memorisations to check this .
Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

No bro. I was taught certain chapters orally during bedtime. I was just an infant back then. Didn't know how to read and write.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 21, 2018, 11:45:06 PM
Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?
So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 22, 2018, 02:38:16 PM
So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?

Peace, perhaps study more and like prayer post less until you know what you're talking about.

If talking about "man-made" verse arrangements there are ?many? while text is relatively same.

Example (no code else would show up on repeated verses 300+) or show us ?imaginary? code?

Current manuscript/s inconsistent extra alif in verse 17:48 which is repeated verbatim in 29:9 ?

17:48   انظر كيف ضربوا لك الأمثال فضلوا فلا يستطيعون سبيلا      
150900200 201080 800200261 3020 130140500130 808003061 80301 106040091070650 60210301

150900200 201080 800200261 3020 13014050030 808003061 80301 106040091070650 60210301
25:9   انظر كيف ضربوا لك الأمثل فضلوا فلا يستطيعون سبيلا      

While the oldest manuscripts are more consistent ?

17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/48/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMvTz8xD/ch17v46-57.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/25/vers/9/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBR4z03H/ch25v8-20.jpg)


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 22, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Peace Noon.
You say ,quote:
While the oldest manuscripts are more consistent ?

Provide the original verse(17:48) that the prophet wrote when Qoran was being revealed, then we can be certain about the Alif?
Can t you find that copy, the one that should have come before all these old manuscripts?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 22, 2018, 05:42:14 PM
peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 12:09:39 AM
Peace Noon.
Again you are saying this, quote:
NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

You are not coming up with the history why the old manuscripts are the original.

After all if you are claiming letters were added to the current ones, then how was Qoran in your view preserved?

 If on the other hand you are saying most  or all the old manuscript have not got the added letter , then bring also the original verses written before the new arrangement to compare?

If you are saying they added letters and number verses in the new versions,  the way the alphabet evolved and the numbering of verses were introduced ,  then how do you reconcile the preservation?

For you, the only way to make sure is by comparison of the before and after the arrangement  verses are compared.

For me, Qoran s verses are saying to us GOD has preserved His letters, words chapter and arrangement (Jamaahu) with a mathematical structure. Impossible to change the original tablet/composition of the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 23, 2018, 07:18:27 AM
peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

brother instead of telling math we need to educate brother GL something what he always avoid same happen with this of your post.

SEE the brackets GL use magnifer it will help.

example

book x  1st version God is One
book x 2nd version God is not one.

book y 1st version God is one
book y 2nd version God is one
book y 3 till 1000th version God is one.

@ GL now collect all the older versions and find us a difference ?
not those difference what we already discussed that never change the meanings as full.

now its your take.  i m educating u as well as a brother. usually people who have interest in math have brain. but now i undertand coders are fake mathematicians thats y they are dumb to understand simple logic. and simple posts and simple questions.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 07:30:15 AM
Peace  Imran.
Give me a comparison with the copy of the prophet.  Or a copy that existed during the prophet s time.
Then we can see the consistency of the old manuscripts?
This method is the only fool proof one if you discount the mathematical structure.
You say I cannot use a certain mushaf  that is not "consistent" but you use one/ones that you have not provided history/evidence for that is /or comes from the original?
What is this logic then?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 23, 2018, 07:35:24 AM


For me, Qoran s verses are saying to us GOD has preserved His letters, words chapter and arrangement (Jamaahu) with a mathematical structure. Impossible to change the original tablet/composition of the book.



Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim  :!

more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

lot more things but to be honest when u have lot of drawbacks in your theory how can u carry on debating things without solving these apparent issues ?
thats how you ll tell people about math of quran when u guys dnt even know what u did with math?

how you teach somebody when u by yourself dnt know WHAT to teach ?
but before teaching WHAT to teach we always need to know HOW to teach ? make sense
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
Peace Imran.
You say, quote:

Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim 

I say that I am satisfied with what I have checked. And I have given you the link/tools to do the same. If it is an issue for you ,it is not for me.

As for, what you say here, quote:
more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

 You have missed my answer, here it again:

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why and the  hints.
One of them in 21:87 وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
The other one in 68:1 نُونْ وَالقَلَمِ وَما يَسطُرونَ
And the hint is the subject of 21:87 and 68: 48 فَاصبِر لِحُكمِ رَبِّكَ وَلا تَكُن كَصاحِبِ الحوتِ إِذ نادىٰ وَهُوَ مَكظومٌ 
Dha Nun and Sahibi Al Hut . GOD could have easily said Jonah in both but did not Why?
 Because of the logical explanation tokeep with the numerical structure of His book. As it happens both ذَا النّونِ   and  صاحِبِ الحوتِ   have letters that fit it in with the structure  locking the whole book .
Still have an issue?
Then give me your take on why did GOD spell the letter N in 21:87 as NUN? And why in only the two verses GOD is calling Jonah other than his real name?

Because you will come back here saying N in 68:1 is spelt as N  and it is consistent in all the old manuscripts and we will end up going in a circle because you are not providing the history/evidence linking to the original copy.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 23, 2018, 08:41:35 AM

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why

brilliant so u know what God decided  :yay:
Did God personally told you about this ?

where r tbe explaination of why he decide to write in such a way ? evidence plz
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 10:15:41 AM
Peace Imran.
I have  cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 11:34:37 AM
Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 21:87:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial (The only one in 68:1) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse  as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: reel on September 23, 2018, 04:35:28 PM
Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?


You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

Quote
So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 23, 2018, 07:54:01 PM
Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3:182 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness (with alif) للعبىد to the devotees?

8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلم biẓallāmin/in darkness (no alif?) للعبىد to the devotees?

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 23, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
Peace reel.
I know what you say here is true to some extent, quote:

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

But the important issue still remains, do the memorisation of new arrangement of Qoran matches the memorisation of the arrangement during the time of the prophet letter by letter, by word and verse by verse ? How can we check that?

 One can argue it is very difficult to add/take away whole chapters but words and even small chapters can easily be added or taken away especially if the book is being collected by "experts" that are supposedly trusted and backed by the leaders.

 If there is a trace of even a letter being different/changed then history of the collection needs checking thoroughly. How do we do that ? Can we do that?
This is when the "preservation" will also be questioned. How is the book been/being preserved?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 24, 2018, 12:35:32 AM
Salaam,


Doesn't this:
peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting

and this:
Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3:182 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness (with alif) للعبىد to the devotees’

8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلم biẓallāmin/in darkness (no alif?) للعبىد to the devotees’

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.


contradict  what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41   Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42   Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

56:77   Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
56:78   In a Book well-guarded

72:28   So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them,
             and He has counted everything in numbers.

85:21   Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22   In a Tablet, Guarded.




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 24, 2018, 09:00:35 AM
contradict  what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an:

peace, see oldest manuscripts الامثل l-amthāla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

13:17  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:9 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
24:35 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 الامثل l-amthālu/the examples
59:21  الامثل l-amthālu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3:182 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice 
4:153 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4:160 فبظلم fabiẓul'min/so in wrong/injustice
6:82  بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
6:131 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
11:117 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
16:61 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
22:25 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
22:10 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth ىداك hands your وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
41:46 من who عمل work صلحا righteous of فلنفسه so for soul his/himself ومن and who اسا does evil فعلىها so against it وما and not ربك lord your بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
50:29 ما not ىبدل changed القول the speech لدى with me وما and not انا I am بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/2StcgFjV/ch3v175-183.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfv8ZCwy/ch8v48-59.jpg)
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 24, 2018, 09:42:19 AM
Peace Imran.
I have  cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace Gl

only problem is you never understand the questions.

even i asked here something else ?
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

if God claimed it he must claimed in clear cut way ? did U GET it what i am asking
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 24, 2018, 09:49:05 AM
Peace Imran.
I have seen this, quote:
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

"...Ahsa Kulla Chaiin Addadan".. i.e GOD counted the numbers ..
I repeat:
Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 21:87:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial (The only one in 68:1) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse  as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 24, 2018, 10:10:59 AM
Salaam,



peace, see oldest manuscripts الامثل l-amthāla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

13:17  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:9 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
24:35 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 الامثل l-amthālu/the examples
59:21  الامثل l-amthālu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3:182 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice 
4:153 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4:160 فبظلم fabiẓul'min/so in wrong/injustice
6:82  بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
6:131 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
11:117 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
16:61 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
22:25 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
22:10 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth ىداك hands your وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
41:46 من who عمل work صلحا righteous of فلنفسه so for soul his/himself ومن and who اسا does evil فعلىها so against it وما and not ربك lord your بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
50:29 ما not ىبدل changed القول the speech لدى with me وما and not انا I am بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163



What is your theory,  understanding on these differences?

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: imrankhawaja on September 24, 2018, 10:58:40 AM
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial (The only one in 68:1) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse  as indication.


so your thinking has nothing to do with God decision isnt it ? the answer you gave is just your thinking not the reality.

BOLD so what ?


 

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 24, 2018, 12:15:13 PM
Peace Imran.
Like I said to you. Accountability dictates that each of us check for themselves.
If you are happy with your lot(Your old manuscripts) ,it is your choice.
I am happy with mine(after checking for myself the mathematical structure).
 
As for the message, it is crystal clear in both our mushafs . So I wish you the best of works/morals  brother.
This is the most important thing in Qoran.(Inna Akramakum inda Allah Atkaakum)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 24, 2018, 06:22:41 PM
Peace, last post need to take a break...

21:87:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial

68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and the pen وما and what ىسطرون yasṭurūna/they write being (i.e. writing)

Furthermore, نون does not spell N (noon) rather parse the word ?

21:87 النون l-nuni/the noon being

ال the
ن N (noon) 
ون being (i.e. so-called)

Likewise, see example ?

49:17 ىمنون yamunnūna/favored being ... ىمن yamunnu/favored

What is your theory,  understanding on these differences?

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

4:82 افلا do so not ىتدبرون they reflecting القران the qur?an/recitation ولو and in case كان be من from عند near/with غىر other than الله the god لوجدوا surely found they of فىه in it اختلفا ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) كثىرا kathiran/much of (3+)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=163

(https://i.postimg.cc/nL6Rn8s7/ch50v14-34.jpg)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=32

(https://i.postimg.cc/0j9CN996/ch50v26-43.jpg)

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: good logic on September 24, 2018, 11:13:41 PM
Peace Noon.
Common brother, the "being" word is made up  here i:
21:87 النون l-nuni/the noon being

ال the
ن N (noon) 
ون being (i.e. so-called)

So-called what? There is no word "being" in the verse. The word  النون  in the verse just means the letter N .
There is no relation to: 49:17 ىمنون yamunnūna/favored being ... ىمن yamunnu/favoured.

Enjoy your break brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 25, 2018, 01:25:49 AM
Salaam,


Peace, last post need to take a break...

 

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

4:82 افلا do so not ىتدبرون they reflecting القران the qur?an/recitation ولو and in case كان be من from عند near/with غىر other than الله the god لوجدوا surely found they of فىه in it اختلفا ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) كثىرا kathiran/much of (3+)




When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent  "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 25, 2018, 09:21:34 AM
When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent  "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Peace gave numerous examples including ten consistently spelled الامثل not half spelled الامثال (same word).

1.   13:17 الامثل the examples
2.   14:25 الامثل the examples
3.   14:45 الامثل the examples
4.   16:74 الامثل the examples
5.   17:48 الامثل the examples

6.   25:9 الامثل the examples
7.   24:35 الامثل the examples
8.   25:39 الامثل the examples
9.   29:43 الامثل the examples
10.   59:21 الامثل the examples

13:17 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/17?handschrift=13
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2r4kf5J/ch13v12-v23.jpg)

16:74 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
UNESCO ?Memory of the World? Program ?San?a Manuscripts CD First AH 16:73-89
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQCBN0Bm/ch16v73-89.jpg)

17:48 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/49?handschrift=107
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqZJ2nh6/ch17v46-56.jpg)
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 26, 2018, 03:09:55 AM
Salaam,



peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting

Some examples of differences in the spelling of words  from what you  call " consistent  oldest manuscripts".

 Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9  - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24  - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله


Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line: 20-21   - Way  (of) the former (people)  : سنت الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line: 19-20  -   Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنت الاولين
 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line: 19-20   ( the) Way (of) Allah   : سنت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line: 9  -  Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line: 3  - Way  (of) the former (people)    :  سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line   ( the) Way (of) Allah     :  سنه الله


--------

I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent,  it is for a purpose  and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.
 
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially  when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 28, 2018, 05:57:23 PM
Some examples of differences in the spelling of words  from what you  call " consistent  oldest manuscripts".

 Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9  - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24  - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

peace, same in ?new? manuscripts slight distinction رحمت verb & رحمه verbal noun from root رحم raḥima/mercy ‎

39:38 ? برحمه biraḥmatin/in mercy its هل shall هن they ممسكت with-holders رحمته raḥmatihi/mercy his ?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/38/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKkw3BwB/ch39v33-44.jpg)

Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line: 20-21   - Way  (of) the former (people)  : سنت الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line: 19-20  -   Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنت الاولين
 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line: 19-20   ( the) Way (of) Allah   : سنت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line: 9  -  Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line: 3  - Way  (of) the former (people)    :  سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line   ( the) Way (of) Allah     :  سنه الله

again same in ?new? manuscripts slight nuance/distinction ?‎

17:77 سنه sunnata/manner من from قد hence ارسلنا sent we of قبلك before you من from رسلنا messengers ours ولا and not تجد thou find لسنتنا lisunnatina/to manner its ours تحوىلا turning

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/77/handschrift/163

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dzqvvbpr/ch17v67-79.jpg)

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (same word/person) in all chapters  and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of ?29? initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=163

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYL4G0ch/ch2v121-132.jpg)

1.   2:1 الم alif lam meem ذلك such الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it هدى guidance للمتقىن for the righteous
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/1?handschrift=116

2.   3:1 الم alif lam meem الله the god لا not اله deity الا except هو he الحى the alive القىوم the sustainer
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/1/handschrift/116

3.   7:1 المص alif lam meem saad كتب book انزل descends الىك to you فلا so not ىكن beeth فى in صدرك breast your حرج critical منه from it لتنذر to thou warn به with it وذكرى and reminder للمومنىن to the believers
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/1/handschrift/163

4.   10:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book الحكىم the wise
5.   11:1 الر alif lam ra كتب book احكمت are perfected اىته signs/verses its ثم furthermore فصلت explained من from لدن one who حكىم wise خبىر aware
6.   12:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
7.   13:1 المر alif lam meem ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book والذى and the which انزل descends الىك to you من from ربك lord your الحق the truth ولكن and however اكثر more الناس the humankind لا not ىومنون believing
8.   14:1 الر alif lam ra كتب book انزلنه descends we it الىك to you لتخرج that thou evict الناس the humankind من from الظلمات the darkness الى to النور the light باذن by permission ربهم lord theirs الى to صرط path العزىز the mighty الحمىد the praiseworthy
9.   15:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book وقران and qur?an/recitation مبىن clear

10.   19:1 كهىعص kaaf ha ya ain saad ذكر remembrance رحمت mercy ربك lord your عبده devotee his زكرىا zakariyya
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/19/vers/1/handschrift/163

11.   20:1 طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an/recitation لتشقى that thou agonize
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163

12.   26:1 طسم ta seen mim تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/26/vers/1/handschrift/163

13.   27:1 طس ta seen تلك those اىت signs القران the qur?an/recitation وكتب and book مبىن clear

14.   28:1 طسم ta seen mim تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/28/vers/1?handschrift=107

15.   29:1 الم alif lam meem احسب do calculate الناس the humankind ان that ىتركوا left they of ان that ىقولوا speaketh they of امنا believe we of وهم and they لا not ىفتنون tested being
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/29/vers/1/handschrift/107

16.   30:1 الم alif lam meem غلبت ghalabat/triumph الروم the romans
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/1/handschrift/107

17.   31:1 الم alif lam meem تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/1/handschrift/107

18.   32:1 الم alif lam meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it من from رب lord العلمىن the world?s inhabitants
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/32/vers/1/handschrift/107

19.   36:1 ىس ya seen والقران and the qur?an/recitation الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1/handschrift/107

20.   38:1 ص saad والقران and the qur?an/recitation ذى owner الذكر the reminder
21.   40:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty العلىم the knower
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/1?handschrift=163

22.   41:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation من from الرحمن the almighty الرحىم the merciful
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/41/vers/1/handschrift/163

23.   42:1 حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf  كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1/handschrift/163

24.   43:1 حم ha meem والكتب and the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/43/vers/1?handschrift=163

25.   44:1 حم ha meem والكتب and the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/44/vers/1/handschrift/163

26.   45:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/45/vers/1/handschrift/163

27.   46:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/46/vers/1/handschrift/163

28.   50:1 ق qaf والقران and the qur?an/recitation المجىد the glorious
29.   68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and the pen وما and what ىسطرون they write being



Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 29, 2018, 12:10:28 AM
Salaam,




it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.






Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.



- I gave you some examples of differences in spelling of words from what you consider" consistent oldest manuscripts"



- The particular spelling in current manuscript and in some older manuscripts is for a purpose and is not the result of inconsistency,
otherwise this would condradict with Quran verses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.



likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (same word/person) in all chapters  and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of “29” initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.


There is no logique in changing the spelling only in chapter 2 for the word Ibraheem,
and  changing the arrangement of the initialed chapters only  in 19 chapters and not in the rest of the 29 initialed chapters,
they must have had a source for these particular spellings and arrangement of verses.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 29, 2018, 11:45:35 AM
Salaam,






Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.




Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ

So said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved from his people, "Not we see you but a man like us, and not we see you followed [you] except those who [they] (are) the lowest of us immature in opinion. And not we see in you over us any merit; nay, we think you (are) liars."


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

But said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved among his people, "This is not but a man like you, he wishes to assert (his) superiority over you, and if Allah had willed surely He (would have) sent down Angels. Not we heard of this from our forefathers.



I believe that the current manuscript with the particular spelling of some words is the same as the original manuscript.
And that in some other manuscripts some of this particular spelling was lost by some scribes thinking that the same words should be spelled the same way,
not aware that this particular spelling was intended for a purpose.
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 29, 2018, 02:47:18 PM
- I gave you some examples of differences in spelling of words from what you consider" consistent oldest manuscripts"

peace, again you gave examples same root slight nuance of words spelled consistently the same in the oldest and newest manuscripts ? and again, see usage each word slightly distinct in the same verse.

17:77 سنه sunnata/mannerism ...  لسنتنا lisunnatina/to manner it ours
39:38 برحمه biraḥmatin/in mercy its ...  رحمته raḥmatihi/mercy it his

Furthermore these are consistent and spelled exactly the same each occurrence.

 ا ل ا م ث ل the examples   
 ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (again spelled consistently with ى  ch 2 in oldest manuscripts)

Likewise clear looking at oldest manuscripts preserved in German, French, and British Library?s etc., that  verse # s are ?man-made? i.e. no consistency and probably used by scribes back then as check-sum arrangement/s.

The British Library?s oldest Qur?an manuscript now online
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_fs001r

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cVXRQc2/ch35v40-ch36v4.jpg)

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 29, 2018, 02:55:34 PM
Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

likewise perhaps study/read carefully less counting stuff you'll see it is correct.
qur'an to write "they" trailing alif dropped insert وا (done for numerous words).

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of

(https://i.postimg.cc/XNcpySrb/ch23v23-35.jpg)


peace!
Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on September 30, 2018, 02:50:56 AM

Salaam,



likewise perhaps study/read carefully less counting stuff you'll see it is correct.
qur'an to write "they" trailing alif dropped insert وا (done for numerous words).

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of



For me the current manuscript is correct, preserved by God, and the particular spelling is intended for a purpose:


I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent,  it is for a purpose  and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.
 

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially  when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.


It was your claim about  inconsistencies:


it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.





Why do you consider this with an extra alif NOT consistent:

it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting

and consider this with an extra Waw consistent:
Salaam,




Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ

So said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved from his people, "Not we see you but a man like us, and not we see you followed [you] except those who [they] (are) the lowest of us immature in opinion. And not we see in you over us any merit; nay, we think you (are) liars."


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

But said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved among his people, "This is not but a man like you, he wishes to assert (his) superiority over you, and if Allah had willed surely He (would have) sent down Angels. Not we heard of this from our forefathers.



I believe that the current manuscript with the particular spelling of some words is the same as the original manuscript.
And that in some other manuscripts some of this particular spelling was lost by some scribes thinking that the same words should be spelled the same way,
not aware that this particular spelling was intended for a purpose.
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



72:28 
لِيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا

LiyaAAlama an qad ablaghoo risalati rabbihim waahata bima ladayhim waahsa kulla shayin AAadadan

That He may make evident that indeed, they have conveyed (the) Messages (of) their Lord; and He has encompassed what (is) with them and He takes account (of) all things (in) number."


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on September 30, 2018, 09:24:32 AM
For me the current manuscript is correct, preserved by God, and the particular spelling is intended for a purpose:
and consider this with an extra Waw consistent:


72:28 
لِيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا

peace, not sure which quran (or from which numerology site) you are using since current and oldest manuscripts spell it correctly and grammatically etc., الملوا already explained and you ignore.

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of

Those infatuated with number want to use simpleton numerology/mindless counting to change the text and ignore and/or override the preserved record from close to the time of revelation? another example.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv0Y2VGD/ch23v14-24.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt9kr1Zj/ch72v18-ch73v9.jpg)

have nice life!


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on October 01, 2018, 06:38:43 AM
Salaam,


When you say : " current manuscript/s  not consistent ".


it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3:182 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness (with alif) للعبىد to the devotees?

8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلم biẓallāmin/in darkness (no alif?) للعبىد to the devotees?



Then you have to come up with a logical explanation for this:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41   Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42   Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

56:77   Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
56:78   In a Book well-guarded

72:28   So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.

85:21   Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22   In a Tablet, Guarded.


Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: Noon waalqalami on October 08, 2018, 08:33:06 PM
Then you have to come up with a logical explanation for this:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41   Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42   Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

56:77   Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
56:78   In a Book well-guarded

72:28   So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.

85:21   Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22   In a Tablet, Guarded.

Peace not about guarding text which anyone can change, edit, delete, etc. at any time or guarding text ?before it? is written (irrational!) rather ?the reminder? does not contain falsehood ?before it? i.e. pertaining to prior events mentioned and neither future events ?behind it? foretold to occur.

Likewise not about infactuation with certain ?number/s? which are counteless.

92 naturally occurring elements
2.98 * (10^4) = 29,800 meters/sec speed of the earth in orbit floating around the sun
2 * (10^5) = 200,000 meters/sec speed solar system in orbit around milky way galaxy

21:30-33 اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (i.e. ?an inna?/that indeed) السموت the heavens والارض and the land كانتا be dual رتقا sewn of ففتقناهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من from الما the water كل each شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing وجعلنا and made we of فى in الارض the land روسى firm peaks ان that تمىد shake بهم with them وجعلنا and made we of فىها therein فجاجا ravine of سبلا paths of لعلهم perhaps they ىهتدون guided being  وجعلنا and made we of السما the heaven/sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard of وهم and they عن about اىتها signs its معرضون away turning وهو and he الذى the one خلقا creation of للىل the night والنهار and the daytime والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. all prior mentioned above) فى in فلك vessel ىسبحون sailing/floating

(http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tumblr_mj0vvcqnZx1qdlh1io1_400.gif)

Title: Re: Hafs or Warsh
Post by: ibn_a on October 09, 2018, 08:46:17 AM
Salaam,


Peace not about guarding text which anyone can change, edit, delete, etc. at any time or guarding text ?before it? is written (irrational!) rather ?the reminder? does not contain falsehood ?before it? i.e. pertaining to prior events mentioned and neither future events ?behind it? foretold to occur.

Likewise not about infactuation with certain ?number/s? which are counteless.

- Other translations for " بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ   bayni yadayhi  ":   before it  / openly  / presently

- Doesn't the red text contradict the blue text ?
If no certainty about the preservation of the text, how to be certain about the events it mentions ? ( change, edit, delete, etc.)



Likewise not about infactuation with certain ?number/s? which are counteless.

92 naturally occurring elements
2.98 * (10^4) = 29,800 meters/sec speed of the earth in orbit floating around the sun
2 * (10^5) = 200,000 meters/sec speed solar system in orbit around milky way galaxy

21:30-33 اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (i.e. ?an inna?/that indeed) السموت the heavens والارض and the land كانتا be dual رتقا sewn of ففتقناهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من from الما the water كل each شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing وجعلنا and made we of فى in الارض the land روسى firm peaks ان that تمىد shake بهم with them وجعلنا and made we of فىها therein فجاجا ravine of سبلا paths of لعلهم perhaps they ىهتدون guided being  وجعلنا and made we of السما the heaven/sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard of وهم and they عن about اىتها signs its معرضون away turning وهو and he الذى the one خلقا creation of للىل the night والنهار and the daytime والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. all prior mentioned above) فى in فلك vessel ىسبحون sailing/floating


It would be more relevant to share your translation of these verses:

15:9    Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona

41:41   Inna allatheena kafaroo bialththikri lamma jaahum wa-innahu lakitabun AAazeezun.
41:42   La ya teehi albatilu min bayni yadayhi wala min khalfihi tanzeelun min hakeemin hameedin

56:77   Innahu laqur-anun kareemun,
56:78   Fee kitabin maknoonin.

72:28   LiyaAAlama an qad ablaghoo risalati rabbihim waahata bima ladayhim waahsa kulla shayin AAadadan.

85:21   Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun,
85:22   Fee lawhin mahfoothin.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.