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General Issues / Questions => Questions/Comments on the Quran => Topic started by: SAbboushi on September 28, 2017, 05:53:34 PM

Title: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on September 28, 2017, 05:53:34 PM
Does anyone know the basis for making إل ياسين two words instead of one?
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.

Salaam
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: HP_TECH on September 29, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.

Salaam
Can you show some evidence of that?
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: Man of Faith on September 29, 2017, 02:19:16 AM
Because "ياسين" is a name and possibly including group reference. Grammar prevents AL to be written together with the name but has to be written separately. If not, AL would naturally be written together with the word.

Question is who are the Yaasiyin. Worth investigating. If I know Quran well enough it is one of those code-like expressions. I find it interesting that you brought it up. Linguistically the word is a very primitive one containing simple letters, so its meaning ought to be quite forth telling.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: good logic on September 29, 2017, 03:51:01 AM
huruf is right. It just means lineage/family of/prodigy/.... People of similar values /ways /....        like "آل عمران " for example: tTwo words "AAl" And Yaseen.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ ءادَمَ وَنوحًا وَءالَ إِبرٰهيمَ وَءالَ عِمرٰنَ عَلَى العٰلَمينَ

So AAl- Yassen just means those who have similar ways/values. i.e Peace on Yaseen and on those who have similar ways/values as Yaseen.
My take.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: Man of Faith on September 29, 2017, 04:07:39 AM
Good logic, in that case AL would be written as linked to the word.
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2017, 04:19:37 AM
Can you show some evidence of that?

Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.


Salaam
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on September 29, 2017, 07:42:54 AM
Thanks very much for your replies.

What seems odd to me:
1) it is the only word in the Quran (per Tanzil.net) which has an embedded space.  If it is 2 separate words, then why is it numbered as 1 word 37:130:3 instead of
  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

2) noorsoft.org lists the root as الياسين (which it seems to me contradicts it being 2 words?)

3) Omar (Dictionary of the Holy Quran) lists إل ياسين under the root الياس (p. 29):
Quote
Ily?s?n is the plu. of Ily?s amd means Ily?s and his followers.  According to some it is another form of Ily?s, and both words designate the same person, as Sain?' and S?n?n are both names of Mount Senai.
But then Omar writes it with a space and says it means "People of Elijah" which seems to me different than "the plu. of Ily?s" ("Ily?s-ians" comes to my mind).
Omar p. 29:
Quote
أل ياسِين People of Elijah; Elijah (37:130). 
Is this not contradictory?  If الياس is the proper name, and (as he says)
Quote
Ily?s?n is the plu. of Ily?s
, then I'm confused why he then separates the word instead of just adding the suffix -in as he seems to be suggesting?  "Yaasiyin" as Man of Faith suggests comes to mind, but I'm not knowledgeable about Arabic morphology...

Because "ياسين" is a name and possibly including group reference. Grammar prevents AL to be written together with the name but has to be written separately. If not, AL would naturally be written together with the word.

... like "آل عمران " ...

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصطَفىٰ ءادَمَ وَنوحًا وَءالَ إِبرٰهيمَ وَءالَ عِمرٰنَ عَلَى العٰلَمينَ
Thanks!  3:33 is an excellent example which helped me examine further and here are my findings using your example:
1) آل is tagged as an "accusative masculine noun" (corpus.quran.com)
2) آل is considered a separate word by corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) having root اهل (or اول) (per noorsoft.org)
Omar p. 36: اهل Family; Family member; House; Household; People belonging to a community or locality.

Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.
3) I find 153 instances of this word آل which are separated from the word it is referring to, AS A SEPARATE WORD, such as in good logic's 3:33 example:
3:33:6  وَءالَ
3:33:7 إِبرٰهيمَ

The SOLE exception I find in the Quran (hafs) versions which are written in a manner where each word is separately identified is 37:130.

In summary, as best as I can tell:
corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) consider all instances of آل   to be a separate word with the sole exception of the آل in 37:130, where it is written:
37:130:3  إل ياسين
instead of

  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

and where noorsoft.org, a gold standard source (I believe) for Quranic roots, does not consider the إل in 37:130:3 as having a root like the other 153 instances in the Quran.

So far,
"ياسين" is a name
seems to have merit meaning that Omar (and the vast majority of the 50+ translations I've seen) are mistaken

I've seen one translation to support Man of Faith's supposition:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/37/130/default.htm (http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/37/130/default.htm)
Aisha Bewley:    ?Peace be upon the family of Yasin!?

Even so, such a translation would regard إل ياسين  as two words and thus still doesn't explain why إل ياسين  is being treated as a single word by the sources I have cited...
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2017, 08:22:16 AM
Quote
    Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.

3) I find 153 instances of this word آل which are separated from the word it is referring to, AS A SEPARATE WORD, such as in good logic's 3:33 example:
3:33:6  وَءالَ
3:33:7 إِبرٰهيمَ

The SOLE exception I find in the Quran (hafs) versions which are written in a manner where each word is separately identified is 37:130.

In summary, as best as I can tell:
corpus.quran.com, Omar (see above), tanzil.net, noorsoft.org and 2 other word-by-word translations (QIE & Alhuda) consider all instances of آل   to be a separate word with the sole exception of the آل in 37:130, where it is written:
37:130:3  إل ياسين
instead of

  37:130:3   إل
  37:130:4   ياسين

and where noorsoft.org, a gold standard source (I believe) for Quranic roots, does not consider the إل in 37:130:3 as having a root like the other 153 instances in the Quran.'aal


You are mixing up two different roots. you equate 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots.

'ill as it appears in ill yasin, and 'aal as it appear in 'aal 3imraan, for instance.

'ill is root '-l-l nd 'aal is root   '-w-l

Salaam
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on September 29, 2017, 10:03:19 AM
... 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots.

Thanks.  If I understand you correctly, 'ill and 'aal are the "two different roots" you are referring to?  And the "two different words" you are referring to are ill in ill yasin and 'aal in 'aal 3imraan?

'ill as it appears in ill yasin, and 'aal as it appear in 'aal 3imraan, for instance.

'ill is root '-l-l nd 'aal is root   '-w-l

I'm not familiar with the transliteration you are using. 
1) Can you tell me which arabic letters for these two roots?
2) Can you give me other relevant verses where this word/root ill/'ill are used?  You've suggested that we
Quote
Check all other appearances of 'ill in the Qur'an.
, but I need to know the Arabic letters to do so.

Since you are of the position that إل ياسين are two words, then I suspect you would agree that these sources I have cited have all made a mistake when they treat it as a single word?

I is two words, 'ill yaasiin", 'ill means linneage, pact.
Can you show some evidence of that?

HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: huruf on September 29, 2017, 11:47:43 AM
Thanks.  If I understand you correctly, 'ill and 'aal are the "two different roots" you are referring to?  And the "two different words" you are referring to are ill in ill yasin and 'aal in 'aal 3imraan?

I'm not familiar with the transliteration you are using. 
1) Can you tell me which arabic letters for these two roots?
2) Can you give me other relevant verses where this word/root ill/'ill are used?  You've suggested that we , but I need to know the Arabic letters to do so.

Since you are of the position that إل ياسين are two words, then I suspect you would agree that these sources I have cited have all made a mistake when they treat it as a single word?
Can you show some evidence of that?


HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?

'ill  = hamza-lam-lam
'aal = hamza-waw-lam

As to occurrences of 'ill, I guess you do not know corpus.quran.com. It is a wonderful instrument to find out this kind of thing. You go to the dictionnary there and get the root letters and it shows all the occurrences of the root collected in their different categories. See for 'ill:



9:8:8) illan   (of) kinship   كَيْفَ وَإِنْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَيْكُمْ لَا يَرْقُبُوا فِيكُمْ إِلًّا وَلَا ذِمَّةً
(9:10:5) illan   (of) kinship   لَا يَرْقُبُونَ فِي مُؤْمِنٍ إِلًّا وَلَا ذِمَّةً وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُعْتَدُونَ



I have quoted what appears for 'ill, but as you see there are only two entries and one of them is not 'ill Yasin, because I guess it considers it proper noun and although I have seen that there have been improvements in the site regarding that, I guess not every possible improvement is yet introduced. Even with small things like that the site is a blessing and gift from God, it is so useful and it helps a lot people to look for themselves and verify in a shorter time things that otherwise would take ages.

I take the opportunity to commend once more those who put up the formidable work for this enormous service to muslims and studious people. May God reward them generously.

Salaam
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on September 29, 2017, 01:38:30 PM
As to occurrences of 'ill, I guess you do not know corpus.quran.com. It is a wonderful instrument to find out this kind of thing.

Yes I agree: I find corpus.quran.com to be very useful!  I just wish Kais Dukes would finish the Syntactic Treebank, but he told me a few years ago that he does not plan to... he's too busy with wife, kids, job...

I have quoted what appears for 'ill, but as you see there are only two entries and one of them is not 'ill Yasin, because I guess it considers it proper noun and although I have seen that there have been improvements in the site regarding that, I guess not every possible improvement is yet introduced.

Actually their list of roots is from zekr.org which Kais believes to be an accurate verified root list for the Quran (according to his thesis for which he developed corpus.quran.com); even so, they apparently (already) changed the root provided by zekr from الياسين to الياس.

Is it just me, or do you (or others) find a contradiction there:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3) (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3))
If the proper name is "إِلْيَاس" per that page, can one modify a proper name to be إِلْ يَاسِينَ, and separate the first 2 letters of the proper name... (i.e. make it... two words)?

I appreciate the help you and others have given.  It has helped me to reframe my question as:

Why is إل ياسين in 37:130 treated as one word instead of two?

Would appreciate any additional comments from other posters on the info I've provided in this thread

Peace--
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: good logic on September 29, 2017, 01:54:37 PM
I still think it is two words.Let me elaborate more.

"Ilyas" has not become "Ill-Yaseen" as in one word . In that context  "Ilyas" has become "Aal-Ilyas" shortened "Ill-Yaseen" two words, because Qoran has its own rules for grammar,spellings and pronunciation. When you look at the meaning of the verses in context ,you get the idea that GOD is saying Peace on Ilyas and AAl-Ilyas( heavy word in Arabic to say/pronounce, instead Qoran uses - Ill-Yaseen- i.e those like Ilyas( spiritual family/lineage of Ilyas).

My understanding. Unless of course someone comes up with a better understanding/explanation.
GOD bless.
Peace
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on September 29, 2017, 03:35:28 PM
Thanks - that makes a lot of sense to me.  And it seems obvious.

But then I'm mystified / dumbfounded by why the three word by word translations and websites and dictionaries I've already cited do not (to me) seem to support this explanation... and thus treat it as one word...??


Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: HP_TECH on October 05, 2017, 12:43:41 PM

HP_TECH: are you asking for evidence that 'ill yaasiin" is 2 words, or that 'ill means linneage, pact?

I was asking for evidence that ill means lineage, pact. I am still waiting for evidence of that.
There should at least be similar examples. I am also not strong in grammar of Quran and would like to verify the truthfulness of that claim.

Verification can be achieved by citations, so I am waiting...
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: Mazhar on October 05, 2017, 01:21:53 PM
Yes I agree: I find corpus.quran.com to be very useful!  I just wish Kais Dukes would finish the Syntactic Treebank, but he told me a few years ago that he does not plan to... he's too busy with wife, kids, job...

Actually their list of roots is from zekr.org which Kais believes to be an accurate verified root list for the Quran (according to his thesis for which he developed corpus.quran.com); even so, they apparently (already) changed the root provided by zekr from الياسين to الياس.

Is it just me, or do you (or others) find a contradiction there:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3) (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%3CiloyaAs#(37:130:3))
If the proper name is "إِلْيَاس" per that page, can one modify a proper name to be إِلْ يَاسِينَ, and separate the first 2 letters of the proper name... (i.e. make it... two words)?

I appreciate the help you and others have given.  It has helped me to reframe my question as:

Why is إل ياسين in 37:130 treated as one word instead of two?

Would appreciate any additional comments from other posters on the info I've provided in this thread

Peace--

(http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/04.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20006/26.%20Ilyaas%20alahissalam/2a.gif)
It has nothing to do with (http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/07.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20009/17.%20Illan%20Hamza%20Laam%20Laam/1.gif) stemming from Root ء ل ل; similarly it has nothing to do with (http://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.049/2.%20Aal%20Hamza%20Waw%20Laam%20Followers/3.gif) from Root ء و ل.

It is proper noun and diptote. It is name of a foreign language spelled in Arabic in matching sound of the original language.

The proper names of foreign language are transcribed in target language by spelling them in such manner that they sound as near to the sound in their original language.
Moreover, it is not uncommon that a person is differently called or known by two names.
Ayah 123 to 132 is a paragraph like. The topic of the paragraph is Ilyas alahisalam.
His name is later spelled by the above word.

Except for pronunciation of the original language, the first part neither has root origin nor meanings.
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on October 07, 2017, 08:26:34 AM
Thanks Mazhar - so it seems you're in agreement with Omar's findings:

Quote
Omar (Dictionary of the Holy Quran) lists إل ياسين under the root الياس (p. 29)
...  According to some it is another form of Ily?s, and both words designate the same person, as Sain?' and S?n?n are both names of Mount Senai.

Even so, I'm not sure that explains why the name is written as two words instead of one?

Anyone?
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: Mazhar on October 07, 2017, 09:45:54 AM
Thanks Mazhar - so it seems you're in agreement with Omar's findings:

Even so, I'm not sure that explains why the name is written as two words instead of one?

Anyone?

Not two words, it is one word; pause after first syllable -- if space is not there the word gets conjoined, and there will be no pause. The word is spelled to mimic the sound of name in original language.
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on October 07, 2017, 03:46:40 PM
Interesting.  Thanks-
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: uq on October 08, 2017, 01:26:53 PM
Peace all,

The construction إِلۡ يَاسِين is highly irregular.

The prefix إِلۡ is not likely to be the definite article (the) because the definite article never occurs with a Kasra in Arabic.

The suffix يَاسِين is peculiar in that it phonetically spells out the first verse of chapter 36, whether this has any bearing on the meaning I cannot say.

My suspicion is that Il Yāsīn is a variation of the spelling of Ilyās, albeit non-Arabicized, whereas, Ilyās has been Arabicized.

The most likely explanation, in my view, is the one presented by Mazhar, in that it is a phonetical 'mimicking' of the original non-Arabic name.

Bear in mind that two other Readings (Nāfi' and Ibn 'Āmir) report the construction as آلِ يَاسِين meaning the family of Yāsīn.

God knows best.
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: SAbboushi on October 11, 2017, 01:21:39 PM
Thanks for your post.

The prefix إِلۡ is ...
I'm not sure it meets the definition of a prefix since it is written as a separate word

The prefix إِلۡ is ... not likely to be the definite article (the) because the definite article never occurs with a Kasra in Arabic.
Agreed -- and I find that huruf has already proven this to my satisfaction by pointing out "You are mixing up two different roots. you equate 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots."

The suffix يَاسِين is peculiar in that it phonetically spells out the first verse of chapter 36, whether this has any bearing on the meaning I cannot say.
Interesting


Again, what is unique about this is that when the Quran is parsed into words, numerous translators and institutions have chosen to treat these two words as one.  Even though the Quran has other proper names which consist of multiple words, they are parsed as multiple words, e.g.
Dhul-Kifl written as two words (separated by space) ذَا ٱلْكِفْلِ and parsed as 2 words:
38:48:4 وَذَا
38:48:5 ٱلْكِفْلِ

"إِلْ يَاسِينَ" is the only instance in the Quran where two words are parsed as one word.

One can say that "But Dhul-Kifl is a proper name made from Arabic words" and "إِلْ يَاسِينَ" is a foreign proper name.

Which then makes me wonder why, if it's a foreign name meaning we don't understand it's lexical/morphological construction, would it make sense to write a single proper name as two words in the first place?

And so another question that comes to my mind is whether or not there is a difference in pronunciation between "إِلْ يَاسِينَ" and "إِلْيَاسِينَ"?  Can any native Arabic speakers weigh in on that?

I believe Mazhar is saying that there is a difference:
Not two words, it is one word; pause after first syllable -- if space is not there the word gets conjoined, and there will be no pause. The word is spelled to mimic the sound of name in original language.
I've listened to several different recitations of verses 37:130 and 37:123.
I can't for the life of me hear any (more of a) pause after the "ل" in the 37:130 recitation of إِلْ يَاسِينَ than after the "ل" in the 37:123 recitation of "إِلياسَ":
37:130 http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=130 (http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=130)
37:123 http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=123 (http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=123)

Can someone who speaks Arabic fluently please confirm they hear a pause?


Bear in mind that two other Readings (Nāfi' and Ibn 'Āmir) report the construction as آلِ يَاسِين ...

I don't know what you mean by "report the construction".  I believe the readings are "readings", not "writings" (i.e. they are written representations of a style(?) of recitation).  I have "written" copies of 14 different readings (Riwayat), and all copies write it as "إِلْ يَاسِينَ".  But I don't believe this confirms whether or not those two "words" are really one lexical word with an embedded space and thus one lexical meaning (i.e. a variation of the word Ily?s per Omar).
Title: Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
Post by: huruf on October 12, 2017, 01:08:06 AM
The word إِلياسَ, as it happens all the time with the Qur'an is a case with the tendency to assign proper names that bear not connection to their meaning, and many times to to understand that they do not come from Arabic, but are forewign words that are transcribed some way.

In fact, if I am not seeing wrong, the word itself is a very common word pattern in Arabic of the same form as  إِسْلَٰم

So if we look at the value of root lam-ya-seen, its meaning is given in the dictionnaries as "to be brave, valiant, courageous" , in form II, lam-ya-ya-seen, it would be "to stick to, to plaster..."

So, in fact, Ilyas as character, whether single person or group, would be considered as a somebody distinguished by their courage and steafastness.

So indeed I tend to agree withgood logic's take that the expression  إِلْ يَاسِينَ  'ill yaasin, two words, is a play of words to mean the people that as 'Ilyaas who were like him, stedfast and courageous. That is, he left spiritual inheritors.

I do not see as a mere ressort to get out of a grammar or phonetical jam, but as an ingenious way to express a spiritual tradition of which 'ilyaas would be the mark and example.

And 'Ilyaas is not foreign word but a clear marking of the distinguished trait of one of the prophets and his following. It is a proper name, but a meaning that has become a proper name for their holders.

Salaam

Salaam