Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
So what are those alterations, and how many are they, one by one.
Salaam
the entire text in translation, and compare the oldest arabic text Qur'an and a modern version for yourself
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 04:53:21 PM
Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
Simple..
1. God is the only trusted source of guidance... (and not some object / idol such as book)
2. God revelation hasn't ended.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 04:53:21 PM
Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
By deciphering it anew and properly.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 05:32:51 PM
the entire text in translation, and compare the oldest arabic text Qur'an and a modern version for yourself
Aim for an as old account as possible.
I have mentioned in various places on this Forum the Mathematical and Statistical perfection of the Qur'an, facts that make it virtually impossible any human created this 1400 years ago; it is simply not possible sorry Abdun Nur you could not be more wrong. Anyone who claims the Qur'an has been corrupted has already disbelieved in it.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608259.msg383604#msg383604
So what evidence will you bring to prove your claim Abdun Nur? We are all waiting...
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 05:32:51 PM
the entire text in translation, and compare the oldest arabic text Qur'an and a modern version for yourself
You simply do not know and therefore are never going to quote even one of those instances you grandly say are altered. Here, in this forum there ar people who are doing just that. They have not found those alterations.
You do not even dare propose a single ateration and you havw not done that checking yourself, because you are speaking out of despite.
Salaam
Quote from: Jafar on August 30, 2017, 08:25:25 PM
Simple..
1. God is the only trusted source of guidance... (and not some object / idol such as book)
2. God revelation hasn't ended.
So, you mighty one, are forbidding God to speak through a book? Why such hte for books. If He can guide us through many other means and reveal to us as He pleases, why are you forbiddng Him to speak through a book?
Salaam
Quote from: clashncruz on August 31, 2017, 01:50:05 AM
I have mentioned in various places on this Forum the Mathematical and Statistical perfection of the Qur'an, facts that make it virtually impossible any human created this 1400 years ago; it is simply not possible sorry Abdun Nur you could not be more wrong. Anyone who claims the Qur'an has been corrupted has already disbelieved in it.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608259.msg383604#msg383604
So what evidence will you bring to prove your claim Abdun Nur? We are all waiting...
It is possible to prove Quran has been corrupted and that is common knowledge. Just look at latest research.
Man Of Faith,please do it. Prove your side .
Otherwise,few more years will pass and you will still be only talking one liners and claiming.
It has already been few years since you started your project on deciphering Qoran. Are you stuck?
huruf,we keep going in circles with these claims about Qoran.
Guess what ,GOD is spot on,they cannot and will not be able to find any corruption in the original Arabic text.
All people are doing is finding faults in human interpretation of the text.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Quote from: good logic on August 31, 2017, 04:19:21 AM
Man Of Faith,please do it. Prove your side .
Otherwise,few more years will pass and you will still be only talking one liners and claiming.
It has already been few years since you started your project on deciphering Qoran. Are you stuck?
huruf,we keep going in circles with these claims about Qoran.
Guess what ,GOD is spot on,they cannot and will not be able to find any corruption in the original Arabic text.
All people are doing is finding faults in human interpretation of the text.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Your own forum has content which proves Quran has been corrupted. I am too lazy or rather find it too irrelevant to do it, to search it for you, but you may use the search function. This does not make me wrong in any way, just that I let you yourself seek the answer you ask for it is easy to find.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
The 20 Versions of the Qur'an today. (7 are recorded in the Hadith.)
If you had provided a link you had almost done the job for me. Nevertheless, there are pretty heavy differences in various Quran versions.
Not that I care about it, I have a version that seems to work well and am translating it.
Even the added verse numbering and chapters testify themselves to that Quran is manipulated in some way.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Man of Faith on August 31, 2017, 06:31:58 AM
Your own forum has content which proves Quran has been corrupted. I am too lazy or rather find it too irrelevant to do it, to search it for you, but you may use the search function. This does not make me wrong in any way, just that I let you yourself seek the answer you ask for it is easy to find.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
The forummay have contents which purport to show something of what you say, but the purporting is not matched by the verification, let alone prove what you say. If that existed, with the antiQur'an aiming worrldwide in fct we would be awash with such proofs. The fact is that I have not yet seen s single one neither in this forum or anywhere else.
If what you refer is to the wellknown and acknowledged extremely few variations Qur'an followers of certain words and signs which do not change at all the meaning of any passge let alone the Qur'an itself, then you may cling to that to uphold the "daring" image of your stance you might try to give, but in fct you know and we all know that it is hot air, nothing else.
Salaam
Quote from: Man of Faith on August 31, 2017, 06:53:39 AM
If you had provided a link you had almost done the job for me. Nevertheless, there are pretty heavy differences in various Quran versions.
Not that I care about it, I have a version that seems to work well and am translating it.
Even the added verse numbering and chapters testify themselves to that Quran is manipulated in some way.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Yes, it is printed, published, it has ppages and covers and headins and notes sometimes, it has indeed been manipulated. The question is whether anybody would, unlike you, be bothered by such inconsequential and well known and taken into account accessory details.
Don't worry about your imag, even if you do not look s if you were charging against the Qur'an, you still mke your mark.
Quote from: good logic on August 31, 2017, 04:19:21 AM
Man Of Faith,please do it. Prove your side .
Otherwise,few more years will pass and you will still be only talking one liners and claiming.
It has already been few years since you started your project on deciphering Qoran. Are you stuck?
huruf,we keep going in circles with these claims about Qoran.
Guess what ,GOD is spot on,they cannot and will not be able to find any corruption in the original Arabic text.
All people are doing is finding faults in human interpretation of the text.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Yes, just like kids at the fair going around and around... I guess that is what it is for some, some kind of play. But you must acknowledge Good logic that it must be ungratifying to attempt to crash the Qur'an "idol" and find it so uncollaborative. How dare we respect, follow the Qur'an or try to, when there are needy people around who would much rather be themselves the idols and considered followable? You should realise that that kind of treatment is very painful for self-admirers.
I find the situation humorous and think of dogs, who are such unselfish and unassuming teachers. How can they be so self-satisfied with so little vanity or self-admiration. They are a wonder, a beautiful page of the cosmic Qur'an.
One of my dreams is to write a thousands of pages treaty with the teachings of each species for the human kind. I have already thought of bulls (and cows of course), dogs, hens and rats. The latter not the prettiest lesson, but still meaningful. A pity animals cannot write in the forum.
Salaam
Muslim Clergy claims that Quran was written in the times of Mohammad as a complete book or Mushaf, as it was transmitted by Angel Gabriel and was safely kept with Hafza. Mohammad's wife and Abu Bkar's daughter. This book can not be found today. So yes either such book never existed or this claim is a lie.
Oldest available written Quran's do not have following. Which clearly proves Muslim believes of no change in text since prophet's time as wrong. Also, belief of Allah and angles as guards of text for eternity to be wrong.
1. Just look and compare, new and old books, neither Surah name/numbers nor Aya numbers are originally in text.
2. No irrabs
3. Signs of vowels are not what you see today.
These are certainly additions to even older available text done at later times. There is history of these addition written by Muslims, as to when and who did make these changes in the text. This is entirely human work. There was no Godly interference to stop it.
Question, is this a corruption? So far I can not say it with certainty based upon my own dealings of text. Changes and alterations, yes.
Regards,
a
Since the proponents of such a theory haven't elaborated upon the details, I can only assume they are referring to, for example, the differences in Hafs and Warsh versions of Quran as discussed here for example: https://www.free-minds.org/which-quran
And the so-called variant readings as discussed in TRaditional Islamic history.
The biggest weakness in the above article and subsequent claims is that most of the differences do not alter the message significantly, and that the variances have not been put to the test, i.e. intra-Quran verification. Almost certainly AN and MofF have not conducted such studies.
Quote from: bkanwar2Oldest available written Quran's do not have following. Which clearly proves Muslim believes of no change in text since prophet's time. Also, Allah and angles as guards of text for eternity.
1. Just look and compare neither Surah name/numbers nor Aya numbers are originally in text.
2. No irrabs
3. Signs of vowels are not what you see today.
I'm more interested in what Quran claims about Quran, rather than what Traditional Muslims believe or claim about Quran, but in any case, your example (1) is irrelevant. Chapter names and verse numbering were added later to ease referencing. It doesn't change the message.
Re: 2) I have no idea what you mean by "irrabs".
Re: 3) Yes, tashkeel/vocalisation (if that is what you are referring to) is not found in oldest Quran scripts, but that doesn't mean the message has been changed. It is still extractable from the original text, although I am aware of some letter and even word differences, but again, not subjected to any intra-Quran verification to my knowledge. For example, Arabic writings of today, e.g. in newspapers, do not have tashkeel/vocalisation.
Quote from: Wakas on August 31, 2017, 10:20:46 AM
Re: 2) I have no idea what you mean by "irrabs".
Re: 3) Yes, tashkeel/vocalisation (if that is what you are referring to) is not found in oldest Quran scripts, but that doesn't mean the message has been changed. It is still extractable from the original text, although I am aware of some letter and even word differences, but again, not subjected to any intra-Quran verification to my knowledge. For example, Arabic writings of today, e.g. in newspapers, do not have tashkeel/vocalisation.
Wakas, Irrabs are marking on the last alphabet of a word. This is the Syntax of Quran. Syntax is part of any language that conveys the meanings of words as these relate to each in a given sentence. Some languages use order of word in sentence for determinig relationship of subject and object. Arabic especially Quranic Arabic lacks this quality. Subject of the sentence could be at the end of a sentence. Hence, addition of irrab was a fundamental change to the text.
Furthermore, Morphology/spelling or Surf. No body pays attention to it except following, what Tabari has regurgitated in his translation, a defecto Quran now. Please see following two for comparison. Check from page 53 in Tabari.
https://islaambooks.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/the-commentary-on-the-quran-volume-i-tafsir-al-tabari.pdf
Surah 1:1 بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
One who doesn?t engage in worship derives pleasure from showing the extreme and lasting concern for sufferings or misfortune of others.
Surah 1:2 الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Surah 1:3 الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
Surah 1:4 مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
The only praise for the possessor?s of all disciplines of knowledge is no engagement in worship,
This is due to the extreme, lasting concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others,
This is the eternal mode of conduct, which is exclusively for one?s self.
Surah 1:5 إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
You beware of; making us an object of worship also you beware that we are seekers of knowledge.
Surah 1:6 اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
We guide against fleeing the path which is original, straight, undeviating and unceasing.
Surah 1:7 صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلا الضَّالِّينَ
Those fleeing the path, if you were to inform them, it would be nothing but the cause of anger; confounded, perplexed and unable to see right course.
Confusing an Explanation with an Excuse Wakas, that is called the fallacy of rationalization, you seem to admit it's both corrupted in translation and differs from the original, but present excuses, anyway the reality is the original understanding is very hard to unearth and so the guide presently is lost, excusing that does not alter or help that reality, the reality of that loss is people are claiming to be Muslim but do not live or act as a Muslim would, yet take the name. If we look at history, not middle eastern history which is a fiction, but the ruminants of certain historical systems of community we can see Islam based on too simple principles, it was anarchic, no hierarchy and it was free of riba, usury, no sovereigns, no laws, no compulsion, which is why i say those systems of community were the original Islam, until the guide translates into a guide to those systems it will remain lost. Badar's translation does show the concepts in small part as he has only translated a small amount of the Qur'an, this supports my position further.
Quote from: huruf on August 31, 2017, 06:57:30 AM
The forummay have contents which purport to show something of what you say, but the purporting is not matched by the verification, let alone prove what you say. If that existed, with the antiQur'an aiming worrldwide in fct we would be awash with such proofs. The fact is that I have not yet seen s single one neither in this forum or anywhere else.
If what you refer is to the wellknown and acknowledged extremely few variations Qur'an followers of certain words and signs which do not change at all the meaning of any passge let alone the Qur'an itself, then you may cling to that to uphold the "daring" image of your stance you might try to give, but in fct you know and we all know that it is hot air, nothing else.
Salaam
who uphold daring, huh daring what god can do or go hell call god is love hahahahahahhahahahahahahha
Quote from: huruf on August 31, 2017, 07:18:52 AM
Yes, it is printed, published, it has ppages and covers and headins and notes sometimes, it has indeed been manipulated. The question is whether anybody would, unlike you, be bothered by such inconsequential and well known and taken into account accessory details.
Don't worry about your imag, even if you do not look s if you were charging against the Qur'an, you still mke your mark.
Yes, just like kids at the fair going around and around... I guess that is what it is for some, some kind of play. But you must acknowledge Good logic that it must be ungratifying to attempt to crash the Qur'an "idol" and find it so uncollaborative. How dare we respect, follow the Qur'an or try to, when there are needy people around who would much rather be themselves the idols and considered followable? You should realise that that kind of treatment is very painful for self-admirers.
I find the situation humorous and think of dogs, who are such unselfish and unassuming teachers. How can they be so self-satisfied with so little vanity or self-admiration. They are a wonder, a beautiful page of the cosmic Qur'an.
One of my dreams is to write a thousands of pages treaty with the teachings of each species for the human kind. I have already thought of bulls (and cows of course), dogs, hens and rats. The latter not the prettiest lesson, but still meaningful. A pity animals cannot write in the forum.
Salaam
are u say me pity anmals cannot write in forum,
i dont understand maybe i see thing if i know u know who am i, hahahahahahaha
i dont like god, god is fucking fear but allah is powerfull hahahahhahaha
there no god except allah
man i know what is allah i dont bullshit i been bad now i try good man i dont pray or go to black cube it is shrik
u know better im fucking deaf not good write in forum but if i find out about that then i will put bomb C-4 black cube then say fuck idol
Humans have made errors in copying the mushafs ,these errors are known , they make no difference to the text as a whole or the meaning of it.
The different versions may have small errors of spellings,but orally, millions of those who recite Qoran are synchronised and the readings are identical. GOD has been overseeing its journey throughout.
GOD has seen to it that every letter,every word ,every sentence and every surah are connected in such a way that we can easily detect these error.
Look at the threads that discussed these issues.
Also Qoran is the only book in the human history that has always been transmitted orally and to this day it keeps on being transmitted that way. This is another miracle and phenomenon that cannot be compared to any other scripture or book. This also confirms that errors/changes are minimum.
Yes,there are errors and small variations ,but the overall message and meaning have stayed intact.
I am absolutely amazed at how people doubt , is any human capable of writing such a book? I do not think they can change it even if they wanted to,their knowledge is far inferior to what is there!!!.. At best they may add or take away pieces of it!!!And that will stand out like a sore thumb.
Anyway, the more I read it, the more I have no doubt whatsoever that it cannot be human made. But that is me.
Also Qoran says believe in it or do not believe in it. Your choice.
GOD bless.
Peace.
how u know millions of those who recite quran
all history is rewrite by illuminati get it huh
illuminati made jew and christianand fake muslim in old world order
u think illuminati fake i will Smile
good logic are u worship to god? and how u worship hahahahahahahahahahahahahahha wait LOYALTY TO GOD lie i think u loyalty to illuminati
Scarface is expressing the religious mind, which is always founded on gibberish, nonsense and stupidity. A man with no self respect clearly.
all my life i dream see future all my fucking life. 1st da vinci code then is hearing voices send me future i dont lie i dont bullshit my friend black know me say u right about black cube pray whatever
hahah i have deen how i have religious if i dont pray or love fear to god and faith and belief hahahahahahahha sure im bad cos voices made me happen to be bad they is smart then u think
why call me pity anmals cannot write in forum from huruf huh
im easy get angry
scarface,me no illuminati,me no mafia,me no angry,me no swear,me happy.
Oh and me good logic.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
before i hearing voices i alway nice to my freind now im fuck up to allah coz voices put my brain like black magic
what the fuck i kew all People hide from me dat why im piss off
good for u good logic, hard to not angry, me happy about allah
Abdun Nur i been read http://servantofthelight.com 2011 or something it religious, u religious huh
everone have own deen i know
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 31, 2017, 01:45:13 PM
Scarface is expressing the religious mind, which is always founded on gibberish, nonsense and stupidity. A man with no self respect clearly.
Please demonstrate to us what a mind should be founded on then?
call me X coz Malcolm X
A mind should be founded on reason man of faith.
I asked the question why do you trust the Qur?an because if it is now corrupted? I asked because I believe it is of value only if understood in its original form.
This being the case then the focus would be to determine, at all costs, the original message from those of the past, if you believe this message is of value, and i think it's of great value if objectively translated free of personal bias, I know you, man of faith, you're working on a translation, however I have seen your translation and it is not translated impartially, it is nonobjective. You're investing you own beliefs and prejudices into your efforts.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 31, 2017, 10:41:56 AM
Confusing an Explanation with an Excuse Wakas, that is called the fallacy of rationalization, you seem to admit it's both corrupted in translation and differs from the original, but present excuses,
What you claim as "excuses" I call explaining the reality of the situation. Please cite one statement I made that is factually incorrect.
I never once talked about "translation", nor state it differs from the original. Your pseudo-intellectual reply fails to grasp what I even said. Strawman fallacy anyone?
Quoteanyway the reality is the original understanding is very hard to unearth and so the guide presently is lost, excusing that does not alter or help that reality,
very hard to unearth = lost ?
Fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity
Think of Quran like buried treasure, heaped upon it are piles upon piles of dirt/obfuscation (traditional hadith laden exegesis, countless scholars, traditions, sectarianism, politics etc) and those in the Quran based islam movement have picked up the shovels and started digging. Well, not all of us, for some like you, looks like you've given up digging.
Quoteuntil the guide translates into a guide to those systems it will remain lost.
In other words: guide is lost until it conforms to AN's views/assumptions. Your illogical reasoning is plain for all to see:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question
No, the original message is not related to anything I write to make it a correct translation, my point remains translating the book free of bias is the issue, and if you take your own existing beliefs into it then you would not be translating it, you would be again corrupting it, it would need to be translated from a perspective of objective seperation.
No need to bring me into it personally Wakas, I am only explaining what would have to be the attitude of the translator, they would have to accept what it said even if it refuted what they held as a belief.
True objectivity is almost possible, and even if it was, I dont see how its possibly to verify. Thus, if you are saying any subjectivity in translation means it (the translation) is "corrupted", then I agree. One could say that when interpreting any writing. Every time a person reads text they are interpreting in their own head. One interprets with their mind, their reasoning, their education, their experience, their emotions, their bias etc so everyone will interpret differently to a degree, so everyone will "corrupt" a text to a degree.
Nothing ground breaking in realising that. The more interesting question is, does the Quran account for that?
Quote from: huruf on August 31, 2017, 02:20:58 AM
So, you mighty one, are forbidding God to speak through a book? Why such hte for books. If He can guide us through many other means and reveal to us as He pleases, why are you forbiddng Him to speak through a book?
Forbidding?? :rotfl: :rotfl:
Who or What in any universes can forbid God?
I was highlighting a view of certain human who idolizing a book (or books) as if it was God.. And they themselves claimed to be a group of human who are 'anti idolatry'...
Actually the more interesting topic to discuss is the WHY question..
WHY human throughout the history claimed that his / her / their book was written by God and the ONLY book that was written by God (Thus rendering obsolete the other books which are also claimed to be written by God).
The answer is actually related to ............ politics and power...
(http://i28.tinypic.com/nbx8pv.png)
Among the earliest inscription (claimed to be) written by God(s).
Illustration on top of Hammurabi Codex, King Hammurabi (standing on the left) receiving the inscription / revelation from Marduk. The codex was (claimed to be) written by God (Marduk, depicted sitting on the right) on 1800 BC. Thus anyone who dare to disbelieve in the content shall face the wrath of the All Mighty Marduk.
What a striking parallel to Moses receiving tablet of law written by YHVH, invented many centuries later..
This is the foundation that start it all.... the success of Hammurabi and thriving Babylonian civilization inspire countless others neighboring societies to invent their own "Books / Inscription written by God"..
And also explain, why "God's books and inscription" only appears around middle east and nowhere else..
Simple. One needs to say there is no GOD for some. Then translate Qoran
Or there is no book from GOD( In this case there is no need for a translation!).
Or there is a GOD but there are no religions.
Or there is my religion(Specific) _ No,not me good logic,any one with any religion....etc Then translate Qoran...
So that those with the same ideal will buy into such translation.
Can you all see that we will stay on this divided lines guys?
Where is the common factor?
Otherwise each to their own as usual!!!
GOD bless.
Peace.
So if the Qur'an was not written by a god you believe it has no value good logic?
My view of its value has zero to do with the writer, only the content, from the small amount Badar has translated it is clear it is a book of great value if correctly translated, it is irrelevant who wrote it, and always was, it seems you are conflicted by the need to "believe" in a guide which must have invented superstitions, and fantasy added, if it is a guide that has merit on its own then why would it have no value if it did not supporting religions, gods, worship, prayer, ritual, superstitions, hierarchy, riba usury, etc., if it actually did not support these things when translated?
What people want to invest in the book is there choice, the same sentence may be interpreted by the reader in several ways if they have certain predisposed biases, but the main thing is that the sentence is translated in itself without bias, each word considered purely from a linguistic point if view.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 01, 2017, 04:30:23 AM
So if the Qur'an was not written by a god you believe it has no value good logic?
My view of its value has zero to do with the writer, only the content, from the small amount Badar has translated it is clear it is a book of great value if correctly translated, it is irrelevant who wrote it, and always was, it seems you are conflicted by the need to "believe" in a guide which must have invented superstitions, and fantasy added, if it is a guide that has merit on its own then why would it have no value if it did not supporting religions, gods, worship, prayer, ritual, superstitions, hierarchy, riba usury, etc., if it actually did not support these things when translated?
What people want to invest in the book is there choice, the same sentence may be interpreted by the reader in several ways if they have certain predisposed biases, but the main thing is that the sentence is translated in itself without bias, each word considered purely from a linguistic point if view.
Who's Badar and what's so special about his translation?
Peace Makaveli,
Badar Kanwar has been working on the grammatical and lingustic nature of ancient Arabic, language before it was transformed through hadith, religions and hierarchical governments, and slowly he is revealing the real message, and as he learns he is improving the translation, as he works alone and in his spare time, and as he has to revise his work when he discovers new information, the translation is slow.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 01, 2017, 06:40:16 AM
Peace Makaveli,
Badar Kanwar has been working on the grammatical and lingustic nature of ancient Arabic, language before it was transformed through hadith, religions and hierarchical governments, and slowly he is revealing the real message, and as he learns he is improving the translation, as he works alone and in his spare time, and as he has to revise his work when he discovers new information, the translation is slow.
Thanks.
Quote from: Makaveli on September 01, 2017, 06:25:00 AM
Who's Badar and what's so special about his translation?
In my view his translation is garbage until proven otherwise. One of its fundamental flaws is it throws cross-referencing (i.e. intra-Quran comparison) in the bin, or if he does utilise it he doesn't mention it. In my view the reason why he does not utilise/mention it is because actually employing cross-reference would require monumental effort on his part AND would disprove his translation.
Almost certainly AN has not verified much, if anything, of Badar's translations. Love to be proven wrong if AN can produce an article/post wherein he has done so.
I have looked at Badar s work,and just like numerous other works it is complicated and has zero evidence behind the changes he puts to the Arabic words.
Where is the dictionaries/base work of what he claims his translation is from contained?
Some of it does not make sense either. Just look how long it is taking as well?
By the way Abdun Nur,The Qoran is from GOD,written by humans under the watchful eyes of GOD s invisible soldiers (Inspired). I know some will say so is the bible,the difference is we have an intact original work here.
The content will speak for itself.So other books should also be judged by their contents as well.
GOD bless.
Peace.
That's just ridiculous nonsense "good logic", it was written by people, like all and every book, I'll ask Badar to explain his position, but it is based on a referenced and reasoned approach.
If it is based on a referenced and reasoned approach ,then why the delay?
Do you agree that we need to see a big chunk translated to be able to base our comments on the translation?
But so far it is not the case.
I think ,like many ,when they come to halt,it means there are contradictions and anomalies/mistakes... in their work. My opinion.
GOD bless.
peace.
Badar works a lot, and his spare time is in demand from many sources, so the work is slow.
Quote from: Wakas on September 01, 2017, 07:15:32 AM
In my view his translation is garbage until proven otherwise. One of its fundamental flaws is it throws cross-referencing (i.e. intra-Quran comparison) in the bin, or if he does utilise it he doesn't mention it. In my view the reason why he does not utilise/mention it is because actually employing cross-reference would require monumental effort on his part AND would disprove his translation.
Almost certainly AN has not verified much, if anything, of Badar's translations. Love to be proven wrong if AN can produce an article/post wherein he has done so.
Dear Waqas, instead of asking others why don't you try to prove step by step, translation of just one word, Allah as garbage. It up to you to prove, I have laid my evidence step by step. I can post the latest version of its translation steps again, which is slightly different from original. Are you or anyone, anywhere on this planet earth up to the task?
Quote from: good logic on September 01, 2017, 07:21:40 AM
I have looked at Badar s work,and just like numerous other works it is complicated and has zero evidence behind the changes he puts to the Arabic words.
Where is the dictionaries/base work of what he claims his translation is from contained?
Some of it does not make sense either. Just look how long it is taking as well?
By the way Abdun Nur,The Qoran is from GOD,written by humans under the watchful eyes of GOD s invisible soldiers (Inspired). I know some will say so is the bible,the difference is we have an intact original work here.
The content will speak for itself.So other books should also be judged by their contents as well.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Good logic, please present your evidence that Quran is from God? Don't give me the circular logic of Hadith proving your point. This is an Oxymoron. All current Quran translation/explanation is Hadith based. Hence, trying to prove one by other is just keep spinning your wheels with getting anywhere.
Regards,
Quote from: bkanwar2 on September 01, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
Good logic, please present your evidence that Quran is from God? Don't give me the circular logic of Hadith proving your point. This is an Oxymoron. All current Quran translation/explanation is Hadith based. Hence, trying to prove one by other is just keep spinning your wheels with getting anywhere.
Regards,
That Quran is from "God" is evident from what it says. In the real interpretation of it, it declares things of the future before they had happened and then I am not talking about some cleaving of stone on the moon or something, which is in the Khalifa version.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Peace Man of faith,
you are talking about postdiction which involves explanation after the fact.
This is an effect of hindsight bias that explains claimed predictions of significant events such as plane crashes and natural disasters. In religious contexts, theologians frequently refer to postdiction using the Latin term vaticinium ex eventu (foretelling after the event). Through this term, skeptics postulate that many biblical prophecies (and similar prophecies in other religions) appearing to have come true may have been written after the events supposedly predicted, or that the text or interpretation may have been modified after the event to fit the facts as they occurred. Alternatively the prediction is so vague, catch-all, or otherwise non-obvious that over time somewhere on earth an event can be fitted into the vagueness of the prediction.
I would add.
Your argument may lead to the question: "What is the point of a prediction that cannot be interpreted correctly before the event?" However, the argument is not that the prediction could not have been interpreted correctly prior to the event, but simply that it was not in the case in question, thus the question is working from a false premise. Of course, any "prediction" that is so vague as to not be correctly interpreted before the event it allegedly "predicted" is functionally equivalent to no prediction at all.
I agree the prophecy must not be ambiguous but quite clearly declared. In the interpretation I have it is.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Does it have a location, date, time, clear description of participants and events, if so what is the purpose of the prophecy, is it to prevent the event? to record the event? if the prophecy is not absolutely clear in both detail and purpose what is the point?
It is not ambiguous but not so elaborate although yet clear enough to understand that the author knew what was going to happen when it was being written, saying that Quran has been made according to certain people themselves and not what it is supposed to say. The authenticity in that is Quran has obviously been forced a nonsensical interpretation on top of an innocent discourse and then kept that way until someone could decipher that segment of text and see the writing says that was exactly what was going to happen. That is a safe prophecy, yet the author knew exactly what was going to happen and the expression is clear as glass.
Another thing, which is not a prophecy, but Quran says Solomon was dealing with the kings of Babylon and tried to make them behave righteously (because they did not).
That is consistent because years after Solomon's rule the whole Jewish population was taken captive by Babylon and later rescued by a Persian emperor (shah'an'shah or king of kings), when the Jewish society had suffered years of bad kingship, as evidently only David and Solomon plus a few subsequent kings had behaved properly in order to keep the kingdom healthy.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
The jewish history is poppy cock from start to finish.
Peace Bkanwar2.
I do not believe you are asking me this,quote:
Good logic, please present your evidence that Quran is from God? Don't give me the circular logic of Hadith proving your point
I have conversed with you in the past,I have repeated numerous times in many of my posts that I do not follow hadith . I also repeated many times about the mathematical composition of Qoran ,the contents of Qoran,the style of Qoran.
You do not read my posts? But what about when we are talking to each other,do you just skim it /ignore altogether ?
I am sorry I am failing to understand why you are asking me about the circular logic of hadiths or anything to do with hadiths!!!!!
I give up. I may be naive,but it seems some members do not read posts!!!Why do they take part then? Does this not seem to be unfair? How can you do justice to views if you do not read them?
That explains perhaps why questions are asked numerous times?!!!
That also explains why people keep writing the same stuff. Only what they made their mind about. Nothing else will even interest them. Nothing else is worth a look at. And they call others dogmatic?!!!!
Look brother. I am sorry if I went on a bit here,but I find people who do not read posts and comment on them rude.
Never mind how other translations cannot be trusted,the real question is:Can themselves be trusted?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 04:53:21 PM
Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
Can you clarify what you mean by "the translated text is corrupted", please ? A translation, e.g. in English, is not the original text, and like for any other text, different translators can make different translation.
The Arabic text of Qur'an has certainly be altered from the original text written by Muhammad. This is why we find testimonies of Qur'an of Ibn Mas'ud, Qur'an of Ubay, Qur'an of Ali, Qur'an of Hafsa, etc.
We even find in the palimpsets of Sana'a variations of Qur'an that have never been attested by Arabic authors.
But the most blatant alteration is the alteration of the meaning of the words itself, under the influence of the Sira and the Sunna.
I would say that the right approach to uncover the original message is to appeal to different scientific disciplines: history and philology.
Philology is the science to study the language and its evolutions from written documents.
Here we are to study Arabic from quranic corpus and possibly other written sources at the same time.
That way we can discover how some words have changed meaning from the 7th century to now, and what meaning they can probably have in Qur'an.
We can also discover if some later interpolations have been done, because in that case, the words are not used the same way as the rest of the text.
We can also confront the meaning uncovered by philology to history. For example, the meaning of Qur'an resulting of a philological analysis is not fully aligned with the history of Muhammad as told in the Sira an-Nabawi.
The philological analysis clearly points at a vocabulary describing a period and place of great troubles at the time Qur'an is written, whereas in the Sira an-Nabawi, revelation starts in a peaceful time in Hedjaz.
Also the place doesn't match.
On the other hand, philological analysis is aligned with the history in Northern Arabia, and places writing of original Qur'an among warfare and among theological disputations involving various Christians sects and Jewish sects.
It is in this precise context that the claim of Qur'an that it is a book of guidance starts to make sense.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 04:11:30 AM
The jewish history is poppy cock from start to finish.
Well, the modern definition Jew is that, but the old times it is talking about something else.
There are many independent historians who have recorded things concerning the history of the Cana'ans (another name for people who lived by the east side of the Mediterranean sea). I have told you that you have a blind hatred towards anything which has to do with the word Jew just because of your own emotional encounter and cultural upbringing, that you are very subjective in your opinion of any sources literally denying everything just because of a preconception.
Stop jumping unto the train of modern Arab versus Israeli nonsense.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
I have no hatred Man of faith, the Ashkenazi have been very busy in Palestine digging it up, they found zero evidence to support their fictional histories, did they build the pyramids, no, where they slaves for the Egyptians, no, did Moses ever exist no, their books are fictional nonsense, as is the Christian book added on.
The Bible was created by Constantine, as a tool of imperial control over the masses, he destroyed the competition and installed the Vaticans new subjugating religion.
All religions are invented to control peoples thinking, they all call the masses sheep and the controllers shepherds, do the shepherds protect the sheep, only to make the fleecing of them their monopoly, and at the end of the day it is the shepherd who murders the sheep and consumes them not the wolves the shepherd is thought to protect against.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 09:07:30 AM
I have no hatred Man of faith, the Ashkenazi have been very busy in Palestine digging it up, they found zero evidence to support their fictional histories, did they build the pyramids, no, where they slaves for the Egyptians, no, did Moses ever exist no, their books are fictional nonsense, as is the Christian book added on.
You can't say something did not exist by merely saying there is no evidence. If you were consistent in your argument you would not say that whole history of Danes is a fabrication by Vatican. If that is true you cannot rely on anything in history. There are people who argue there were no Olympic games during antiquity and these were fabricated by Pierre de Coubertin who created modern Olympic games. All these events exist as symbol, and it is up to you to find the truth or abandon it, but nonetheless the symbols will never cease to exist.
The Bible was not created by Constantine, but the text were compiled in a single book with the emphasis on Paul. Biblical texts existed long until AD 325.
The Danes were the allies of the people of Albien, they were migrating into that land before the genocide, the Vatican paints them as the enemy of the people claiming they were raiders, murdering and pillaging, when creeating propaganda you accuse your victim of your own crimes. Lies cold and frightening steer minds to act and think against their allies and for their oppressors.
The term propaganda itself originates with the Roman Catholic Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith (sacra congregatio christiano nomini propagando or, briefly, propaganda fide), the department of the pontifical administration charged with the spread of Catholicism and with the regulation of ecclesiastical affairs in non-Catholic countries (mission territory).
The actual Latin stem propagand- conveys a sense of "that which ought to be spread".
Propaganda techniques were first codified and applied in a scientific manner by journalist Walter Lippman (Jewish) and psychologist Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud (Jewish)) early in the 20th century. During World War I, Lippman and Bernays were hired by the United States president Woodrow Wilson to sway popular opinion to enter the war on the side of Britain.
The war propaganda campaign of Lippman and Bernays produced within six months so intense an anti-German hysteria as to permanently impress American business with the potential of large-scale propaganda to control public opinion. Bernays coined the terms "group mind" and "engineering consent", important concepts in practical propaganda work.
The fictional claims of the use of gas chambers, the use of fluoride to make concentration camp inmates docile, the making of lamps and ornaments from the skin of prisoners, the banning of private gun ownership, and encapsulating the small lies the huge one of the ?Jewish Holocaust? are instances of effective group mind propaganda campaigns. Much like the now discredited claims of Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ (daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the U.S., Saud Nasir al-Sabah) At the beginning of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, during the Gulf War, when in tears during her testimony she openly lied. ?They are taking all hospital equipment, babies out of incubators. Life-support systems are turned off.? These complete lies were even corroborated by Amnesty International, this is propaganda designed to engineer consent.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 10:25:51 AM
The Danes were the allies of the people of Albien, they were migrating into that land before the genocide, the Vatican paints them as the enemy of the people claiming they were raiders, murdering and pillaging, when creeating propaganda you accuse your victim of your own crimes. Lies cold and frightening steer minds to act and think against their allies and for their oppressors.
Gesta Danorum ("Deeds of the Danes") says otherwise, these were criminals like all other tribes. Word vs word, eh?
You can believe the propaganda, but the when the evidence is considered most of the claims before the 13th century are unfounded propaganda
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 10:41:16 AM
You can believe the propaganda, but the when the evidence is considered most of the claims before the 13th century are unfounded propaganda
Which evidence?
Ignore all the written documents as they were written by the Vatican, look at what remains, the Danes settled in Jordvik which is the name of the modern city of York, they immigrated into what then was the capital, or largest city in Britain, London at that time was a fort city controlled by the Vatican and was populated with German immigrants, the Danes helped the Britain?s to remove most of the trouble with the Germans and left the Germans hiding in London or as small groups hiding in the woods as raiding bandits.
Which people were buried in mass-graves then? Are the photographs just staged?
I find it absurd if people have exaggerated and only staged that a lot of people were murdered on a massive scale during the second world War.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 09:07:30 AM
I have no hatred Man of faith, the Ashkenazi have been very busy in Palestine digging it up, they found zero evidence to support their fictional histories, did they build the pyramids, no, where they slaves for the Egyptians, no, did Moses ever exist no, their books are fictional nonsense, as is the Christian book added on.
The Bible was created by Constantine, as a tool of imperial control over the masses, he destroyed the competition and installed the Vaticans new subjugating religion.
All religions are invented to control peoples thinking, they all call the masses sheep and the controllers shepherds, do the shepherds protect the sheep, only to make the fleecing of them their monopoly, and at the end of the day it is the shepherd who murders the sheep and consumes them not the wolves the shepherd is thought to protect against.
So Quranic Moses is a fictional person then?
Did Moses Exist?
The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Reviewed by Robert Tulip
1. DM Murdock?s study of the biblical stories of Moses and their sources is a compelling and detailed analysis of the available textual and archaeological evidence. She explains in great depth and breadth the facts surrounding this major religious character, rigorously and systematically drawing on sound scholarship to demonstrate a new, provocative and coherent interpretation that refutes conventional assumptions. In highlighting the best and most scientific research, Murdock brings forth lost information with the high goal of enabling greater understanding and social harmony.
"A compelling and detailed analysis explaining in great depth and breadth the facts surrounding this major religious character, rigorously and systematically drawing on sound scholarship."
2. The findings of this important research should be the subject of much wider conversation about how and why the Bible was written and how it is perceived and used today. The low level of public interest in this material is disturbing, showing the strong pathologies that still surround religion, with widespread prejudices inhibiting scientific analysis of history. Murdock has maintained a fierce integrity in her analysis by working as an independent scholar. Did Moses Exist? presents a jarring conflict with established patterns of thought, and does so with systematic rigor and depth of scholarship. This book deserves to be read as a major contribution to the assessment of the supernatural myths of Judeo-Christian tradition against a modern natural scientific perspective.
"Murdock has maintained a fierce integrity in her analysis by working as an independent scholar.... This book deserves to be read as a major contribution to the assessment of the supernatural myths of Judeo-Christian tradition..."
Moses Not the Author of the Pentateuch
3. The Pentateuch or Torah, the first five books of the Bible, is conventionally but falsely attributed to Moses. The real authors had agendas far removed from the modern goal of providing accurate historical accounts. Murdock explores how the Bible authors adapted older myths, and how the Bible gives readers a false picture about how and why it was written. In an illuminating comment, she says that "popular religious, spiritual and mythological ideas often float between cultures during contacts of a wide variety, from conquests of peoples to cross-cultural royal marriages, deliberate exchanges between educated priesthoods and travelling merchants, as well as the lowliest illiterate slaves sharing their faiths with one another." (p. 22)
4. This context of broad multilayered cultural contact means that biblical themes often reflect widespread and enduring genres, for example with the Egyptian solar worship seen in Psalm 104. The Mosaic texts evolved and were combined in complex ways that are not obvious, like a natural mosaic of pebbles in a river. The Torah only achieved final form nearly a thousand years after the supposed time of the Exodus, with Moses astoundingly absent from the writings of the pre-exile prophets in the Bible. The Exodus is also entirely absent from non-Biblical sources. The authors had abundant opportunity to create the Moses stories drawing from a range of real origins, simplifying and mythifying chaotic cultural relations into archetypal symbols and stories that served political purposes.
"The Torah only achieved final form nearly a thousand years after the supposed time of the Exodus, with Moses astoundingly absent from the writings of the pre-exile prophets in the Bible."
Moses as Myth
5. In fact, the first books of the Bible bear little if any connection to real events, but evolved from far older stories, serving agendas of cultural construction rather than historical description. Murdock shows that Moses stories originated in myths of a fictional solar god or hero, and the Moses figure was designed to synthesise a range of religious traditions into a simple historical story. As his myth evolved within the Bible, Moses was demoted from a god to a hero, to support Jewish monotheist ideas of cultural identity and security. Elements of the stories that did not meet these political objectives were altered or discarded.
"Murdock shows that Moses stories originated in myths of a fictional solar god or hero.... As his myth evolved within the Bible, Moses was demoted from a god to a hero..."
6. The invention of Moses is broadly recognised by scholars but is immensely controversial for conventional religion. Popular reverence for Moses approaches that for Jesus Christ. Jews and Christians want to believe the stories are true in order to justify their faith, and they are often emotionally affronted by challenges to their na?ve assumptions. The Exodus is a powerful model of liberation from oppression. It presents the ethical clash between monotheism and paganism, providing the foundation for Christian dogmas of good and evil. But believing stories on emotional grounds is a dishonest historical method. If we are serious in our commitment to truth, we should try to understand the realities behind the untrue stories that Christians and Jews have been taught as divine truth. The key message in Did Moses Exist? is that an ethical and scientific approach to religious studies requires a comprehensive inversion of received opinion.
The Bible as Allegory
7. In advocating this scientific paradigm shift in religious studies, Murdock goes much further than conventional critical theology in looking for coherent explanations. The dominance of the church has meant that scholarship on religion has often accepted dogmatic assumptions that lack evidence. The power of popular prejudice about the reliability of the biblical record and the nature of God has corrupted theology with literal acceptance of claims that were originally meant as allegory.
8. Biblical texts contain multiple levels of meaning. The simple literal stories conceal a wealth of deeper symbolic understandings. Over the millennia, simple orthodox faith has gradually forgotten and suppressed cultural memory of the concealed complex vision in the texts, in favour of what people wanted to believe.
9. Conventional theology starts from a premise of respect for religious belief. While seemingly reasonable, this approach has resulted in indifference about evidence, willingness to be intimidated by faith, and failing to realise that the surface text does not convey the real meaning originally intended by the authors. The systematic analysis of ancient evidence and archaeological data in Did Moses Exist?, and in Murdock's earlier books, overturns major cultural beliefs regarding the origin of the Bible stories.
"The systematic analysis of ancient evidence and archaeological data in Did Moses Exist?, and in Murdock's earlier books, overturns major cultural beliefs regarding the origin of the Bible stories."
The Exodus as Fiction
10. Murdock summarises the broad scholarly consensus of evidence about the Exodus story as related in the Bible, to show Moses did not exist and the Exodus did not happen. The data show the stories are fiction, not fact. Moses is myth historicised, not history mythologised. The captivity in Egypt, the mass flight of the Jewish people, the plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the 40 years in the Sinai Peninsula, the Jewish conquest of the Promised Land - none of these fabled events actually occurred. If these events had happened, archaeological data would support the stories of the Bible. In fact, the Egyptian Empire controlled Canaan at the claimed time of the Exodus. This is just one of the myriad problems that show the biblical account is clearly fictional. The Moses story does not appear until after the Jewish captivity in Babylon, centuries after its events, and then, like so many other Bible stories, it shows clear evidence of the transposition of other myths into a Jewish framework.
"Moses is myth historicised, not history mythologised. The captivity in Egypt, the mass flight of the Jewish people, the plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the 40 years in the Sinai Peninsula, the Jewish conquest of the Promised Land - none of these fabled events actually occurred."
11. The gulf between the possible events and the Biblical story is vast. One possible origin Murdock cites is the hypothesis of Russell Gmirkin in Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus that the entire Pentateuch was written in Alexandria in the third century BCE, and that the Egyptian writer Manetho provided the framework for the Exodus. The bottom line in terms of Bayesian probability is that if Moses did not exist, the existing texts are possible, but if Moses did exist, the texts would be very different. This simple point of logic shows that Moses did not exist.
Science and Skepticism
12. The paradigm of modern science requires an attitude of relentless scepticism towards data. Biblical studies have traditionally been unscientific, using methods corrupted by faith. No well-informed people today believe in Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, or traditional literal concepts of God and Heaven. These stories are generally seen as mythical, like Greek and Egyptian myths. But some biblical characters, such as Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Jesus, are still widely accepted as historical, even though the evidence indicates they too are fictional. This fascinating question of how myths came to be seen as history is at the heart of Murdock?s deconstruction of the biblical narrative. Psychologically, to claim a god is real increases the political power of belief in that god. Similarly, belief in Moses or Jesus as historical figures serves to simplify and clarify biblical faith, regardless of the evidence.
"Some biblical characters, such as Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Jesus, are still widely accepted as historical, even though the evidence indicates they too are fictional. This fascinating question of how myths came to be seen as history is at the heart of Murdock's deconstruction of the biblical narrative."
13. Part of the shift of understanding now underway is that conventional views of history can be placed in a longer time frame. Looking beyond just the conventional written records, DNA analysis explains the diffusion of humanity from Africa over the last hundred thousand years, an immensely long period in which our species has been modern in brain and body capacity. The entirety of biblical writing dates to the three thousand years since the dawn of the Iron Age around 1000 BCE, after the Bronze Age collapse. Once we start to place the extant written record within the longer paleontological context of prehistory, conventional views become very shaky. Murdock accepts this larger paleolithic framework for myth, opening the question of how some religious ideas reach back into very ancient African and Indian sources.
14. Murdock devotes most of her Moses book to compiling information that can help us to work out what really happened in the process of writing the Bible. The conclusion is that the reality is extremely different from the traditional myths. Over the generations people had strong incentive and means to promote myths as history, establishing powerful false beliefs that still endure today. The evolutionary drift of the stories meant they gradually changed towards what people wanted them to say. This fact is confronting for people who have internalised Biblical stories as part of their personal cultural identity, but such psychological challenges should not deter rigorous analysis.
Gilgamesh and Dionysus
15. There is no evidence for stories about Moses from earlier than about 600 BCE, a dating which incidentally illustrates that the jibe of the Bible as the product of Bronze Age shepherds is wrong, since the Bronze Age ended many centuries before the Moses stories appear. However, many themes that appear in the later Pentateuch literature can be found in myths that date back much earlier, especially the stories of the Babylonian hero Gilgamesh, and of the wine God Dionysus, whose cult extended from Greece across the Middle East.
"...many themes that appear in the later Pentateuch literature can be found in myths that date back much earlier, especially the stories of the Babylonian hero Gilgamesh, and of the wine God Dionysus..."
16. Analysis of the Dionysus evidence shows that big themes in early Judaism were later systematically suppressed for political reasons. Primarily, these important themes include the role of religion in helping people to enjoy life, and the role of religion in explaining nature.
War and Patriarchy
17. Ancient Israel was a tiny nation seeking peace and security in a region dominated by big aggressive empires, including in early days Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and Persia, and later Greece and Rome. Over the course of the Bronze and Iron Ages, war steadily escalated. Weapons of stone and wood were replaced by bronze from about 3000 BCE and then by the new higher technology of iron from about 1000 BCE. The emergence of iron technology meant that war became more frequent, large scale and violent. How could Israel protect itself?
18. My own speculation, and an area that I suggest Murdock could usefully further discuss, is that the evolution of the Moses stories match to the thesis that earlier more peaceable cultures, with greater social equality, freedom, diversity and pleasure, were replaced by warrior cultures, grounded in hierarchy, dogma, conformity and a puritanical patriarchal morality. Murdock discusses the patriarchal biblical agenda of the prophets in terms of the rise of megalomania, but it is important to recognise that the war myths of the Bible were suited to their political context, a context enframed in the myth of the fall from grace. As we now shift to a new global context, the stories that provide meaning for us today should also shift. As Murdock says, myth is not meaningless. However, finding the meaning in the myths of monotheism puts them in a dubious ethical light.
19. King Josiah is recorded in the Bible as smashing the female astral cult of Asherah. It appears that Josiah saw astral religion as incompatible with the need for a regimented patriarchal society that would obey a strict and severe morality. His political vision involved a promise from Yahweh to give Israel the land of Canaan. The divine deal of land for faith means that if the Israelites are unfaithful to God, they will lose the land. The Biblical prophets, such as Amos and Jeremiah, argued that the only way Israel could obtain military security was by radically distinguishing its monotheist religion from the polytheistic astral traditions then prevalent, and by using monotheism as a basis for ethical standards that would enable Israel to maintain cordial relations with its big dangerous neighbours. So the relatively more anarchic local freedoms of the Bronze Age and earlier times were gradually lost under the hierarchical imperial obedience of the Iron Age in service to ideas of national security.
Volcano, Storm and Wine Gods
20. This cultural evolution towards patriarchal regimentation set the scene for the construction of the Moses Myth. From relatively peaceful societies where religion had provided a controlled social structure for experience of ecstasy and a cosmology to interpret nature, the new conflicted times required that ecstasy be shunned as dangerous and dissolute, and that nature be placed within the supernatural framework of a violent God of wrath. This agenda of social control used the Moses story as its founding myth of a god of volcano and storm. But earlier Jewish religion was much more Dionysiac, recognising the importance of wine as a source of pleasure. And indeed, Murdock provides a fascinating array of common features between Moses and Dionysus. In an extraordinary list of 46 similarities between Moses and Dionysus drawn from sources such as Homer, Pausanius, Cicero, Diodorus, Apollodorus, Macrobius, Euripides, Strabo, Seneca, Arrian and other ancient and modern writers, Murdock demonstrates such detail of structure and intent as to show that the Moses myth was in large part constructed on Dionysian origins.
"Murdock provides a fascinating array of common features between Moses and Dionysus. In an extraordinary list of 46 similarities between Moses and Dionysus drawn from sources such as Homer, Pausanius, Cicero, Diodorus, Apollodorus, Macrobius, Euripides, Strabo, Seneca, Arrian and other ancient and modern writers..."
21. One of the hard things to appreciate in cultural evolution is that when older myths are suppressed, much evidence about them can be destroyed. Especially with oral transmission, as a society changes its prevailing views the evidence of the older ideas can be lost, except for traces in durable media such as stone. George Orwell puts this well in his novel 1984, when he says: "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." So with the biblical authors of the Moses story, as in the story of King Josiah in the seventh century BCE, their control of the temple enabled them to conveniently "find" an ancient scroll, which we know today as the Book of Deuteronomy, one of the supposed five books of Moses. Deuteronomy was written to convey a plausible story about Israel's past, so the kings could maintain control into the future. Gaps of many centuries are passed over in the Bible, but these gaps should give readers today reason to see the works as entirely fictional.
Enigmas and Prebiblical Motifs
22. Did Moses Exist? begins with the observation that the Church Father Origen of Alexandria told Celsus that the Egyptians veiled their knowledge of things in fable and allegory. Origen said: "The learned may penetrate into the significance of all Oriental mysteries, but the vulgar can only see the exterior symbol. It is allowed by all who have any knowledge of the Scriptures that everything is conveyed enigmatically." The story of Moses is full of enigmas. The similarities to the Babylonian story of Gilgamesh, the story of Sargon, and the story of Dionysus illustrate that we are dealing with myth, not history. The veneration of a bronze snake on a pole is utterly contrary to the Genesis vision of the snake as evil and to Josiah?s later removal of this snake idol from the temple, but the raising up of the snake on the pole then becomes a central image for Jesus Christ, immediately before the famous line John 3:16. The magical wand used by Moses to make water gush from rock is a hermetic symbol like the rod of Hermes, the trident of Neptune and the bow of Mithras, producing what Jesus would call living water and what Paul would call the water of the supernatural Christ. The Ark of the Covenant is a highly mysterious symbol with antecedents in Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek myth.
"The similarities to the Babylonian story of Gilgamesh, the story of Sargon, and the story of Dionysus illustrate that we are dealing with myth, not history."
Dionysus Revisited
23. To illustrate the controversy in all this material, one commentator has claimed that the suggestion the myth of Moses drew on stories of Dionysus should be dismissed as ludicrous. This example is well worth more detailed debate. There is evidence of the worship of Dionysus dating from the second millennium BCE, but Moses is not mentioned for nearly a thousand years after that. Dionysus was wildly popular across the Mediterranean, with hundreds of early extant mentions and images, figuring prominently in Homer and Hesiod, and filling the Moses role of lawgiver. The Greek historian Herodotus, fifth century BCE, says the cult of Dionysus came to Greece from Egypt, and that Dionysus was one of the main Gods of the Arabs. There is no mention of Moses before the Babylonian captivity. The Encyclopedia Judaica reports the cult of Dionysus was widespread among Jews. Grapes, the object of the Dionysus cult, were grown in Israel for thousands of years before Christ, featuring in the Christ Myth in the water to wine miracle at the wedding at Cana and in the transubstantiation of wine into the blood of Christ in the sacrament.
24. The range of ancient authors listed above indicate the abundant fertile sources for the Biblical authors to construct Moses as a divine hero. Murdock's thesis about the cultural evolutionary antecedents for Moses applies sound scholarship to confront deep prejudice. Dismissal of this new systematic approach to biblical studies is careless, to put it mildly. This example alone of the connections between Moses and Dionysus shows that Murdock has provided fascinating insights into the nature of religious thought, and the need for a comprehensive paradigm shift in discussion of religious origins. Did Moses Exist? is a magnificent and courageous work of sound scholarship, based on deep insight into the actual nature of religious evolution.
"Murdock's thesis about the cultural evolutionary antecedents for Moses applies sound scholarship to confront deep prejudice. Dismissal of this new systematic approach to biblical studies is careless, to put it mildly....
"Did Moses Exist? is a magnificent and courageous work of sound scholarship, based on deep insight into the actual nature of religious evolution."
For more information, see Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver.
We can all talk now that a lot of past folks paid with their sweat and blood to get us where we are.
Imagine you lived(you is of course anyone of us ) under Hitler,what would you do?
I suppose like most Germans did.Or you would not exist/stay in Germany!!!
Imagine you lived under the French revolution? Imagine you lived as a pirate?imagine you lived in the wild west? etc...
I guess what I am saying is thank your Creator you were born after 1945 - in most countries of the world- and reflect on what you are going to do to help,as part of your bit,the next generation/s!!!!!!
So,where do we go from here? What are the priorities?
Regardless of translations,we need to put this weird and special book(Qoran) in order of priorities that will benefit us and the next generations. Starting with ourselves-Agenda,aims...etc.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 04:39:24 PM
Did Moses Exist?
Unless you truely believe your hypothesis that all the history past 13th century is fabricated and there was anarchy among the Angles and Danes, then there is no point of looking at current "historical" researches and take them as authentic.
There is no evidence that Jesus and even Muhammad existed either. They exist as symbols nonetheless, which means that faithul people need nonetheless to take examples from these figures, either good examples as Jesus's teachings or bad examples as of hadiths (and yes, there is no historical evidence of most if not all of these events depicted in hadiths ever happening, and most so called sahih companions are said to memorize sayings and events by memory and not write them down). The more we go backwards in history the less opportunities there were to preserve facts, since publishing wasn't spread that much until printing press was invented.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 02, 2017, 04:39:24 PM
Did Moses Exist?
The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Reviewed by Robert Tulip
1. DM Murdock?s study of the biblical stories of Moses and their sources is a compelling and detailed analysis of the available textual and archaeological evidence. She explains in great depth and breadth the facts surrounding this major religious character, rigorously and systematically drawing on sound scholarship to demonstrate a new, provocative and coherent interpretation that refutes conventional assumptions. In highlighting the best and most scientific research, Murdock brings forth lost information with the high goal of enabling greater understanding and social harmony.
"A compelling and detailed analysis explaining in great depth and breadth the facts surrounding this major religious character, rigorously and systematically drawing on sound scholarship."
2. The findings of this important research should be the subject of much wider conversation about how and why the Bible was written and how it is perceived and used today. The low level of public interest in this material is disturbing, showing the strong pathologies that still surround religion, with widespread prejudices inhibiting scientific analysis of history. Murdock has maintained a fierce integrity in her analysis by working as an independent scholar. Did Moses Exist? presents a jarring conflict with established patterns of thought, and does so with systematic rigor and depth of scholarship. This book deserves to be read as a major contribution to the assessment of the supernatural myths of Judeo-Christian tradition against a modern natural scientific perspective.
"Murdock has maintained a fierce integrity in her analysis by working as an independent scholar.... This book deserves to be read as a major contribution to the assessment of the supernatural myths of Judeo-Christian tradition..."
Moses Not the Author of the Pentateuch
3. The Pentateuch or Torah, the first five books of the Bible, is conventionally but falsely attributed to Moses. The real authors had agendas far removed from the modern goal of providing accurate historical accounts. Murdock explores how the Bible authors adapted older myths, and how the Bible gives readers a false picture about how and why it was written. In an illuminating comment, she says that "popular religious, spiritual and mythological ideas often float between cultures during contacts of a wide variety, from conquests of peoples to cross-cultural royal marriages, deliberate exchanges between educated priesthoods and travelling merchants, as well as the lowliest illiterate slaves sharing their faiths with one another." (p. 22)
4. This context of broad multilayered cultural contact means that biblical themes often reflect widespread and enduring genres, for example with the Egyptian solar worship seen in Psalm 104. The Mosaic texts evolved and were combined in complex ways that are not obvious, like a natural mosaic of pebbles in a river. The Torah only achieved final form nearly a thousand years after the supposed time of the Exodus, with Moses astoundingly absent from the writings of the pre-exile prophets in the Bible. The Exodus is also entirely absent from non-Biblical sources. The authors had abundant opportunity to create the Moses stories drawing from a range of real origins, simplifying and mythifying chaotic cultural relations into archetypal symbols and stories that served political purposes.
"The Torah only achieved final form nearly a thousand years after the supposed time of the Exodus, with Moses astoundingly absent from the writings of the pre-exile prophets in the Bible."
Moses as Myth
5. In fact, the first books of the Bible bear little if any connection to real events, but evolved from far older stories, serving agendas of cultural construction rather than historical description. Murdock shows that Moses stories originated in myths of a fictional solar god or hero, and the Moses figure was designed to synthesise a range of religious traditions into a simple historical story. As his myth evolved within the Bible, Moses was demoted from a god to a hero, to support Jewish monotheist ideas of cultural identity and security. Elements of the stories that did not meet these political objectives were altered or discarded.
"Murdock shows that Moses stories originated in myths of a fictional solar god or hero.... As his myth evolved within the Bible, Moses was demoted from a god to a hero..."
6. The invention of Moses is broadly recognised by scholars but is immensely controversial for conventional religion. Popular reverence for Moses approaches that for Jesus Christ. Jews and Christians want to believe the stories are true in order to justify their faith, and they are often emotionally affronted by challenges to their na?ve assumptions. The Exodus is a powerful model of liberation from oppression. It presents the ethical clash between monotheism and paganism, providing the foundation for Christian dogmas of good and evil. But believing stories on emotional grounds is a dishonest historical method. If we are serious in our commitment to truth, we should try to understand the realities behind the untrue stories that Christians and Jews have been taught as divine truth. The key message in Did Moses Exist? is that an ethical and scientific approach to religious studies requires a comprehensive inversion of received opinion.
The Bible as Allegory
7. In advocating this scientific paradigm shift in religious studies, Murdock goes much further than conventional critical theology in looking for coherent explanations. The dominance of the church has meant that scholarship on religion has often accepted dogmatic assumptions that lack evidence. The power of popular prejudice about the reliability of the biblical record and the nature of God has corrupted theology with literal acceptance of claims that were originally meant as allegory.
8. Biblical texts contain multiple levels of meaning. The simple literal stories conceal a wealth of deeper symbolic understandings. Over the millennia, simple orthodox faith has gradually forgotten and suppressed cultural memory of the concealed complex vision in the texts, in favour of what people wanted to believe.
9. Conventional theology starts from a premise of respect for religious belief. While seemingly reasonable, this approach has resulted in indifference about evidence, willingness to be intimidated by faith, and failing to realise that the surface text does not convey the real meaning originally intended by the authors. The systematic analysis of ancient evidence and archaeological data in Did Moses Exist?, and in Murdock's earlier books, overturns major cultural beliefs regarding the origin of the Bible stories.
"The systematic analysis of ancient evidence and archaeological data in Did Moses Exist?, and in Murdock's earlier books, overturns major cultural beliefs regarding the origin of the Bible stories."
The Exodus as Fiction
10. Murdock summarises the broad scholarly consensus of evidence about the Exodus story as related in the Bible, to show Moses did not exist and the Exodus did not happen. The data show the stories are fiction, not fact. Moses is myth historicised, not history mythologised. The captivity in Egypt, the mass flight of the Jewish people, the plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the 40 years in the Sinai Peninsula, the Jewish conquest of the Promised Land - none of these fabled events actually occurred. If these events had happened, archaeological data would support the stories of the Bible. In fact, the Egyptian Empire controlled Canaan at the claimed time of the Exodus. This is just one of the myriad problems that show the biblical account is clearly fictional. The Moses story does not appear until after the Jewish captivity in Babylon, centuries after its events, and then, like so many other Bible stories, it shows clear evidence of the transposition of other myths into a Jewish framework.
"Moses is myth historicised, not history mythologised. The captivity in Egypt, the mass flight of the Jewish people, the plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the 40 years in the Sinai Peninsula, the Jewish conquest of the Promised Land - none of these fabled events actually occurred."
11. The gulf between the possible events and the Biblical story is vast. One possible origin Murdock cites is the hypothesis of Russell Gmirkin in Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus that the entire Pentateuch was written in Alexandria in the third century BCE, and that the Egyptian writer Manetho provided the framework for the Exodus. The bottom line in terms of Bayesian probability is that if Moses did not exist, the existing texts are possible, but if Moses did exist, the texts would be very different. This simple point of logic shows that Moses did not exist.
Science and Skepticism
12. The paradigm of modern science requires an attitude of relentless scepticism towards data. Biblical studies have traditionally been unscientific, using methods corrupted by faith. No well-informed people today believe in Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, or traditional literal concepts of God and Heaven. These stories are generally seen as mythical, like Greek and Egyptian myths. But some biblical characters, such as Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Jesus, are still widely accepted as historical, even though the evidence indicates they too are fictional. This fascinating question of how myths came to be seen as history is at the heart of Murdock?s deconstruction of the biblical narrative. Psychologically, to claim a god is real increases the political power of belief in that god. Similarly, belief in Moses or Jesus as historical figures serves to simplify and clarify biblical faith, regardless of the evidence.
"Some biblical characters, such as Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Jesus, are still widely accepted as historical, even though the evidence indicates they too are fictional. This fascinating question of how myths came to be seen as history is at the heart of Murdock's deconstruction of the biblical narrative."
13. Part of the shift of understanding now underway is that conventional views of history can be placed in a longer time frame. Looking beyond just the conventional written records, DNA analysis explains the diffusion of humanity from Africa over the last hundred thousand years, an immensely long period in which our species has been modern in brain and body capacity. The entirety of biblical writing dates to the three thousand years since the dawn of the Iron Age around 1000 BCE, after the Bronze Age collapse. Once we start to place the extant written record within the longer paleontological context of prehistory, conventional views become very shaky. Murdock accepts this larger paleolithic framework for myth, opening the question of how some religious ideas reach back into very ancient African and Indian sources.
14. Murdock devotes most of her Moses book to compiling information that can help us to work out what really happened in the process of writing the Bible. The conclusion is that the reality is extremely different from the traditional myths. Over the generations people had strong incentive and means to promote myths as history, establishing powerful false beliefs that still endure today. The evolutionary drift of the stories meant they gradually changed towards what people wanted them to say. This fact is confronting for people who have internalised Biblical stories as part of their personal cultural identity, but such psychological challenges should not deter rigorous analysis.
Gilgamesh and Dionysus
15. There is no evidence for stories about Moses from earlier than about 600 BCE, a dating which incidentally illustrates that the jibe of the Bible as the product of Bronze Age shepherds is wrong, since the Bronze Age ended many centuries before the Moses stories appear. However, many themes that appear in the later Pentateuch literature can be found in myths that date back much earlier, especially the stories of the Babylonian hero Gilgamesh, and of the wine God Dionysus, whose cult extended from Greece across the Middle East.
"...many themes that appear in the later Pentateuch literature can be found in myths that date back much earlier, especially the stories of the Babylonian hero Gilgamesh, and of the wine God Dionysus..."
16. Analysis of the Dionysus evidence shows that big themes in early Judaism were later systematically suppressed for political reasons. Primarily, these important themes include the role of religion in helping people to enjoy life, and the role of religion in explaining nature.
War and Patriarchy
17. Ancient Israel was a tiny nation seeking peace and security in a region dominated by big aggressive empires, including in early days Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and Persia, and later Greece and Rome. Over the course of the Bronze and Iron Ages, war steadily escalated. Weapons of stone and wood were replaced by bronze from about 3000 BCE and then by the new higher technology of iron from about 1000 BCE. The emergence of iron technology meant that war became more frequent, large scale and violent. How could Israel protect itself?
18. My own speculation, and an area that I suggest Murdock could usefully further discuss, is that the evolution of the Moses stories match to the thesis that earlier more peaceable cultures, with greater social equality, freedom, diversity and pleasure, were replaced by warrior cultures, grounded in hierarchy, dogma, conformity and a puritanical patriarchal morality. Murdock discusses the patriarchal biblical agenda of the prophets in terms of the rise of megalomania, but it is important to recognise that the war myths of the Bible were suited to their political context, a context enframed in the myth of the fall from grace. As we now shift to a new global context, the stories that provide meaning for us today should also shift. As Murdock says, myth is not meaningless. However, finding the meaning in the myths of monotheism puts them in a dubious ethical light.
19. King Josiah is recorded in the Bible as smashing the female astral cult of Asherah. It appears that Josiah saw astral religion as incompatible with the need for a regimented patriarchal society that would obey a strict and severe morality. His political vision involved a promise from Yahweh to give Israel the land of Canaan. The divine deal of land for faith means that if the Israelites are unfaithful to God, they will lose the land. The Biblical prophets, such as Amos and Jeremiah, argued that the only way Israel could obtain military security was by radically distinguishing its monotheist religion from the polytheistic astral traditions then prevalent, and by using monotheism as a basis for ethical standards that would enable Israel to maintain cordial relations with its big dangerous neighbours. So the relatively more anarchic local freedoms of the Bronze Age and earlier times were gradually lost under the hierarchical imperial obedience of the Iron Age in service to ideas of national security.
Volcano, Storm and Wine Gods
20. This cultural evolution towards patriarchal regimentation set the scene for the construction of the Moses Myth. From relatively peaceful societies where religion had provided a controlled social structure for experience of ecstasy and a cosmology to interpret nature, the new conflicted times required that ecstasy be shunned as dangerous and dissolute, and that nature be placed within the supernatural framework of a violent God of wrath. This agenda of social control used the Moses story as its founding myth of a god of volcano and storm. But earlier Jewish religion was much more Dionysiac, recognising the importance of wine as a source of pleasure. And indeed, Murdock provides a fascinating array of common features between Moses and Dionysus. In an extraordinary list of 46 similarities between Moses and Dionysus drawn from sources such as Homer, Pausanius, Cicero, Diodorus, Apollodorus, Macrobius, Euripides, Strabo, Seneca, Arrian and other ancient and modern writers, Murdock demonstrates such detail of structure and intent as to show that the Moses myth was in large part constructed on Dionysian origins.
"Murdock provides a fascinating array of common features between Moses and Dionysus. In an extraordinary list of 46 similarities between Moses and Dionysus drawn from sources such as Homer, Pausanius, Cicero, Diodorus, Apollodorus, Macrobius, Euripides, Strabo, Seneca, Arrian and other ancient and modern writers..."
21. One of the hard things to appreciate in cultural evolution is that when older myths are suppressed, much evidence about them can be destroyed. Especially with oral transmission, as a society changes its prevailing views the evidence of the older ideas can be lost, except for traces in durable media such as stone. George Orwell puts this well in his novel 1984, when he says: "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." So with the biblical authors of the Moses story, as in the story of King Josiah in the seventh century BCE, their control of the temple enabled them to conveniently "find" an ancient scroll, which we know today as the Book of Deuteronomy, one of the supposed five books of Moses. Deuteronomy was written to convey a plausible story about Israel's past, so the kings could maintain control into the future. Gaps of many centuries are passed over in the Bible, but these gaps should give readers today reason to see the works as entirely fictional.
Enigmas and Prebiblical Motifs
22. Did Moses Exist? begins with the observation that the Church Father Origen of Alexandria told Celsus that the Egyptians veiled their knowledge of things in fable and allegory. Origen said: "The learned may penetrate into the significance of all Oriental mysteries, but the vulgar can only see the exterior symbol. It is allowed by all who have any knowledge of the Scriptures that everything is conveyed enigmatically." The story of Moses is full of enigmas. The similarities to the Babylonian story of Gilgamesh, the story of Sargon, and the story of Dionysus illustrate that we are dealing with myth, not history. The veneration of a bronze snake on a pole is utterly contrary to the Genesis vision of the snake as evil and to Josiah?s later removal of this snake idol from the temple, but the raising up of the snake on the pole then becomes a central image for Jesus Christ, immediately before the famous line John 3:16. The magical wand used by Moses to make water gush from rock is a hermetic symbol like the rod of Hermes, the trident of Neptune and the bow of Mithras, producing what Jesus would call living water and what Paul would call the water of the supernatural Christ. The Ark of the Covenant is a highly mysterious symbol with antecedents in Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek myth.
"The similarities to the Babylonian story of Gilgamesh, the story of Sargon, and the story of Dionysus illustrate that we are dealing with myth, not history."
Dionysus Revisited
23. To illustrate the controversy in all this material, one commentator has claimed that the suggestion the myth of Moses drew on stories of Dionysus should be dismissed as ludicrous. This example is well worth more detailed debate. There is evidence of the worship of Dionysus dating from the second millennium BCE, but Moses is not mentioned for nearly a thousand years after that. Dionysus was wildly popular across the Mediterranean, with hundreds of early extant mentions and images, figuring prominently in Homer and Hesiod, and filling the Moses role of lawgiver. The Greek historian Herodotus, fifth century BCE, says the cult of Dionysus came to Greece from Egypt, and that Dionysus was one of the main Gods of the Arabs. There is no mention of Moses before the Babylonian captivity. The Encyclopedia Judaica reports the cult of Dionysus was widespread among Jews. Grapes, the object of the Dionysus cult, were grown in Israel for thousands of years before Christ, featuring in the Christ Myth in the water to wine miracle at the wedding at Cana and in the transubstantiation of wine into the blood of Christ in the sacrament.
24. The range of ancient authors listed above indicate the abundant fertile sources for the Biblical authors to construct Moses as a divine hero. Murdock's thesis about the cultural evolutionary antecedents for Moses applies sound scholarship to confront deep prejudice. Dismissal of this new systematic approach to biblical studies is careless, to put it mildly. This example alone of the connections between Moses and Dionysus shows that Murdock has provided fascinating insights into the nature of religious thought, and the need for a comprehensive paradigm shift in discussion of religious origins. Did Moses Exist? is a magnificent and courageous work of sound scholarship, based on deep insight into the actual nature of religious evolution.
"Murdock's thesis about the cultural evolutionary antecedents for Moses applies sound scholarship to confront deep prejudice. Dismissal of this new systematic approach to biblical studies is careless, to put it mildly....
"Did Moses Exist? is a magnificent and courageous work of sound scholarship, based on deep insight into the actual nature of religious evolution."
For more information, see Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver.
There are also people who say the following characters did not exist:
Jesus https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/?utm_term=.d80c26b7462c
Buddha http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/historical-buddha.html
Rama http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/sep/12ram.htm
Solomon and David http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/cline35709.shtml
All of them share similar content you have pasted about Moses.
I noticed there was not a word about Musa/Moses in Quran in that lengthy text, Abdun Nur. Moses is mentioned in Quran and that is why I am asking you whether it treats him as a fictional character too. If Moses is a fictional character in Quran then every other person mentioned in it ought to be a fictional character too if to keep it logical.
I do however not share your beliefs, there are intertwined historical records which confirms this and that including the liberation from captivity for the Jews by a Persian emperor called Cyrus.
Not only Jews themselves have recorded documents about their existence and happenings and it is truly bold to say all is just a hoax like you do. It is therefore I see that you are very biased and been confused by someone's influence on you. I am one of those persons on Earth most open to alternatives, but I am reasonable enough to keep safe data.
One thing I can agree about though and that is much of the history does not look like it does in people's thinking and many events happened differently and at different locations.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
There does exist accounts of Moses which display his life quite differently than in the Bible and the (sectarian interpretation of) Quran, and then we should instead wonder whether there are problems with the commonly believed portrayals of Moses. In one source Moses does not kill a man like he does in the Bible or Quran, but is a Commander of the Egyptian army and fights against Nubia. However his spiritual side is growing in him and he becomes intimidating due to growing in popularity that the Egyptian authorities conspire against him and he eventually has to flee.
What I do find true is that the real Moses was quite different from in religious belief and his teaching also very different.
But you do not find such readings because all you are after is finding reasons to deny things and you are not genuinely interested in seeing if there are ways around the falsehood like I have done. I have "painted" another picture of Moses thanks to new data and being able to reinterpret Quran. Even his Ten Directives, quite famous, read quite differently because its translation is pretty weak. E.g. the line which allegedly says "do not kill" is to say "do not defeat/dominate".
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Man of Faith on September 03, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
There does exist accounts of Moses which display his life quite differently than in the Bible and the (sectarian interpretation of) Quran, and then we should instead wonder whether there are problems with the commonly believed portrayals of Moses. In one source Moses does not kill a man like he does in the Bible or Quran, but is a Commander of the Egyptian army and fights against Nubia. However his spiritual side is growing in him and he becomes intimidating due to growing in popularity that the Egyptian authorities conspire against him and he eventually has to flee.
What I do find true is that the real Moses was quite different from in religious belief and his teaching also very different.
But you do not find such readings because all you are after is finding reasons to deny things and you are not genuinely interested in seeing if there are ways around the falsehood like I have done. I have "painted" another picture of Moses thanks to new data and being able to reinterpret Quran. Even his Ten Directives, quite famous, read quite differently because its translation is pretty weak. E.g. the line which allegedly says "do not kill" is to say "do not defeat/dominate".
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Which is that "Moses" of Egyptian history you are talking about, what is his Egytian name and where is he mentionned and how and where is he mentionned, and in which time and how do you know that it is the same "Moses" tht is mentionned int he Bible.
The one mentionned int he Qur'an I know it is not.
Salaam
Quote from: Man of Faith on September 03, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
There does exist accounts of Moses which display his life quite differently than in the Bible and the (sectarian interpretation of) Quran, and then we should instead wonder whether there are problems with the commonly believed portrayals of Moses. In one source Moses does not kill a man like he does in the Bible or Quran, but is a Commander of the Egyptian army and fights against Nubia. However his spiritual side is growing in him and he becomes intimidating due to growing in popularity that the Egyptian authorities conspire against him and he eventually has to flee.
Same question, can you give a reference, please ?
For the moment, I'm more inclined to think that a real Moses lived in Iraq, closed to Persia. The Mandeans have a fairly different story of Moses, as narrated by Nicolas Siouffi, French vice-consul of Mossul in the 19th century.
See "Etude sur la religion des Soubbas" : https://archive.org/details/tudessurlarelig00siougoog
Unfortunately only in French, to my knowledge.
According to the Mandeans, the "Firaoun" was called Farrokh-Malko and lived in Iraq, certainly close to Mossul.
There is a region in Iraqi Kurdistan that is called Musri : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musri, a name close to Misr, Egypt. Actually m-s-r in Semitic languages means border, frontier, so different regions were called the same.
Curiously, the Kurds are supposed to descend from the Medes. The word "Medes" is in assonance with Madian, the territory where Moses is supposed to have sought refuge.
The territory of the Medes is also close to Persia, where Zoroastrianism, a monotheism, has emerged.
The time of Moses based on the Bible is estimated to the 13th B.C.
Coincidentally, the same time is attributed to the Gathas of Zarathustra, based on the linguistic analysis of the their language, the Old-Avestic, close to Sanskrit.
And coincidentally too, Akhenaton in Egypt initiated a seemingly monotheism reform in Egypt.
As if a monotheism predication spread all around the Middle East in 13th century B.C.
Moses is not mentioned in the Qur'an Mr Faith, the claim is a corruption.
People of all classes, even the most educated ones, out of religious belief, took for granted everything that is narrated in the current Bible, and every new fact that came to them they placed it so that it came in agreement with the current bible. All kinds of words were brought to say that that was the Fir3awn, no matter how disemblable, and that is still being done and stories and facts of history and mixed and arranged so that they fit the "facts" that originated int the bible.
Egyptology by tiself does nto hold up to the "moses" story. The Qur'an does not at all suport the "Moses" story in its egyptian content, more than that, it contradicts it.
Misr in Arabic and in Qur'an is a sttled and civilised, urban, place. In todays Egypt, Cairo is mentionned commonly not as "Al Qahira" which is the wrd that is translated as Cairo, but as Masr, which is the common pronnunciation of the transliterated M-i-s-r
as written, but which itself is not pronnounced s MiSr because of the will known modification of vowels through the consonantes that accompany.
Popular an even erudite belief has imposed al on qur'an the Biblical Moses over Musa.
Ancient Egypt abhorred o such ungodly thing as slavery, same asabhorred money, coins or paper, considered it against all divine respect and virtue.
The ancient egyptian word on which the biblical menaing of pharaoh has been forced, is unwarranted, unverified and silly. Kings of Egyt were that, kings, not inventions of thousands of year later.
Salaam
Quote from: Man of Faith on September 03, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
In one source Moses does not kill a man like he does in the Bible or Quran, but is a Commander of the Egyptian army and fights against Nubia.
Even his Ten Directives, quite famous, read quite differently because its translation is pretty weak. E.g. the line which allegedly says "do not kill" is to say "do not defeat/dominate".
How could he lead the army and fight against Nubia, which contradicts "do not defeat/dominate"?
Quote from: Makaveli on September 03, 2017, 07:54:23 AM
How could he lead the army and fight against Nubia, which contradicts "do not defeat/dominate"?
Probably because he did not make his realization first after that. It was after he was expelled or had to flee from Egypt he had his paranormal encounter of supernatural origin. Perhaps he saw his error and began to reason differently including part of his prophetic discoveries and due to spreading his new reasoning he got in trouble with people in general in terms of the arguments, and because he did not know what to tell people to convince them he lost favor and became disliked.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Moses is a complete fiction Mr Faith, that means not true, never existed, no events connected.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 04:51:51 AM
Moses is not mentioned in the Qur'an Mr Faith, the claim is a corruption.
Moses IS mentioned in the Quran, Mr. Abdun Nur. There are multiple instances where the word موسى is clearly a reference to a live person.
موسى is the Arabic word for Musa. And Musa is responsible for getting the initial knowledge. It was he who had the so-called Ten Directives come to him, which becomes clearer if one can decipher the text properly.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 08:47:45 AM
Moses is a complete fiction Mr Faith, that means not true, never existed, no events connected.
So be your belief.
so be the evidence
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 08:51:32 AM
so be the evidence
Is there an evidence that you exist? What if your birth certificate is destoryed or is fabricated in the first place? How can people prove you existed years after? But if you leave your work people will consider you a symbol even if some will doubt your existence, they will still talk about you in one way or the other. Ten Commandments isn't fiction.
You been smoking something again Makaveli?
You have no evidence which could rule out the probability of a man called Moses. I have written records including Quran and Quran has literary statements Musa is a person.
If you think that l the mentions are forged this is your belief, but this does not necessarily mean you have evidence.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 08:57:26 AM
You been smoking something again Makaveli?
That is not a counter-argument and something which has any relevance to the discussion at hand.
Whether there was a man called Moses who brought something called the Ten Directives, you still have those accessible and obviously someone upon a time must have presented them. That is actually all which matters to me and we can call him a Messiah without name instead then, if you are so hesitant calling him Moses.
What matters to me are the records of wisdom and knowledge still saved for us today and those you cannot deny me and I can choose to use them whether you like it or not and I can prove to you that they are relevant to a man's mental growth.
Have you seen the ten commandments, an idiot could have thought of a better list of commandments, one that would have removed all excuse for the horrors of religion, hierarchy, usury, etc., but no we are supposed to believe the god of Moses had no clue and wrote a half assed list?
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 09:12:23 AM
Have you seen the ten commandments, an idiot could have thought of a better list of commandments, one that would have removed all excuse for the horrors of religion, hierarchy, usury, etc., but no we are supposed to believe the god of Moses had no clue and wrote a half assed list?
What You say an idiot could have written I think an idiot could not figure out what the Ten instinctive preventors are in a man, which is what the Ten Directives are dealing with, i.e.
Desire of;
1. Hierarchy
2. Materialism
3. Vanity
4. Preoccupation
5. Self-preservation of kin
6. Domination
7. Sexuality (promiscuity)
8. Greed
9. Exaggeration
10. Jealousy - get what your neighbor has
That you lack knowledge and think something else about these lines is not my problem. You are as fooled as everyone else and think Moses brought belief in a god. No, he brought people into ascending their minds by making people become truly being. In the traditional Bible the only remnant of his teaching is "I am who I am" because apparently the deluded clergymen could translate the simple "heyeh ashar heyeh" at least. What is meant by that is "to be is to be being" or in religious terms "God is who God is", i.e. if you decide to be God YOU ARE God, but there are some things to observe first and that is the bodily influence and for that you have a remedy in the Ten Directives. Just search for a mental way to NO hierarchy, NO materialism, NO vanity, NO preoccupation, NO self-preservation of kin, NO domination, NO sexuality, NO greed, No exaggeration, NO jealously and you cease being the animal in which you reside and you can build on your true being, the one you truly are.
The list has a definite purpose and is not just a meaningless law. It lists all of the human instinctive wants which the wise person stays away from.
I could call anyone including you who could not figure out what I did an idiot, but I have not because I am clement and watch my arrogance.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 08:57:26 AM
You been smoking something again Makaveli?
An exemplary of a reasonable person. I will not, however, talk to you in a same way, we are not equal.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 09:12:23 AM
Have you seen the ten commandments, an idiot could have thought of a better list of commandments, one that would have removed all excuse for the horrors of religion, hierarchy, usury, etc., but no we are supposed to believe the god of Moses had no clue and wrote a half assed list?
Moses did not invent belief in God, belief in God (my hypothesis) is natural to our existence, god and gods are mentioned in the earliest preserved writings, including the Epic of Gilgamesh. You are obviously mad at the whole world, the servant of despise.
Well the ten commandments of the bible are written for an idiot and by an idiot, you changing them out of embarrassment is another issue, clearly Christians enjoy hierarchy, materialism, domination, and greed, and they have done throughout their history, so although you claim the commandments are, your list, the ones in their bible are the issue and they are not your list.
Moses never existed, none of the bullshit of the bible has any relevance, it is very, very unlikely any of it is true historically, it gives no guidance in forming anarchic community, removing usury, removing sovereigns and laws, no truth of any worth, on the other hand, it has been the most blood thirsty religion in history, insane numbers of souls have suffered poverty, torture, death, and a life time of suffering through the application of that book.
If Moses and Moses's god actually did exist he would have been better off burning Moses not the bush, and never allowing the bible to be writtten.
If one would not trust written sources as evidence whatsoever and only if they saw the person in question, you cannot even prove to me your own dead great grandmother and I could just say you have no evidence she ever existed because all you have are written sources saying she did live. Obviously one must always have a great grandmother, but who it is, is only on paper, so I can say you have no evidence she existed, your relatives have only made that story up.
This is something called paranoia and eagerness to deny. You can deny just about anything because it does not suit you and you do not understand who the person was.
Either you deny it as false or you discover that someone lied about the person in question which made you doubt its existence. Logically, I would also deny the traditional Moses if I had not found more information on him than meets the eye. I would be intelligent enough however to not claim I can prove that he never existed, but I can doubt it and doubt his status as a wise and knowledgeable person.
In the ancient world their are many physical examples of evidence, human and animal bodies can be evidence, and they can be examined to discover diet, cause of death sometimes, dress, markings, etc. the remains of settlements are physical evidence, they can show how people lived, what they used as tools, ancient monuments can have carvings, reliefs, statues, these can show many things, physical objects can show the technical level of the community, there are many ways to discover things besides a written one.
I am not paranoid, I do know the horrors of the Christian religion historically and I know the origin of the bible, I realise you 'must' find such horrors acceptable being a support of that doctrine.
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 09:43:17 AM
Well the ten commandments of the bible are written for an idiot and by an idiot, you changing them out of embarrassment is another issue, clearly Christians enjoy hierarchy, materialism, domination, and greed, and they have done throughout their history, so although you claim the commandments are, your list, the ones in their bible are the issue and they are not your list.
Moses never existed, none of the bullshit of the bible has any relevance, it is very, very unlikely any of it is true historically, it gives no guidance in forming anarchic community, removing usury, removing sovereigns and laws, no truth of any worth, on the other hand, it has been the most blood thirsty religion in history, insane numbers of souls have suffered poverty, torture, death, and a life time of suffering through the application of that book.
If Moses and Moses's god actually did exist he would have been better off burning Moses not the bush, and never allowing the bible to be writtten.
I have no embarrassment for anything, but I am a person who seeks for the true accounts of things. If I am making things up correcting the meaning of each commandment then it is strange they very well coincidence with a human's instinctive desires, and that mere fact makes them more valid than anything and you can just say I came up with them and have a wise guidance for people.
Jesus according to the Gospels is a person being a prime example of a person living by the Ten Directives as he was a kind of model for that.
If you say Moses does not exist this is your belief as you can prove nothing to anyone that he did not exist. This is your word. However, Quran does speak of an actual person named Musa and who holds on to Al-ketab.
Just because a man is portrayed a certain way by a lot of people does not mean this is his proper reputation and he could have been much different from the blackmailing tales about him.
And I thought this was a Quranic forum so why are you so focused on the Bible here and now? Any intelligent person here understands something is wrong with the Bible. Some think it is just invented stories while some think like me that it has been corrupted in interpretation. My extensive research shows it is the latter.
Forcing a square peg into a round hole does not show the peg was meant to fit
Quote from: Abdun Nur on September 03, 2017, 09:56:23 AM
In the ancient world their are many physical examples of evidence, human and animal bodies can be evidence, and they can be examined to discover diet, cause of death sometimes, dress, markings, etc. the remains of settlements are physical evidence, they can show how people lived, what they used as tools, ancient monuments can have carvings, reliefs, statues, these can show many things, physical objects can show the technical level of the community, there are many ways to discover things besides a written one.
I am not paranoid, I do know the horrors of the Christian religion historically and I know the origin of the bible, I realise you 'must' find such horrors acceptable being a support of that doctrine.
A carving in a stone or similar is a writing. It is yet hard to prove an individual person's existence who lived several thousand years ago and who did not seek a glorious burial in a Pharaoh burial chamber. The common people are hard to find traces of and Moses was a prophet and not a king. Same is for Jesus, there are lots written about him but they cannot find a burial chamber bearing his name or any other remains because Jesus possessed nothing of value for humans and he was allegedly just a carpenter's son. None of that means they never existed, they were just regarded as commoners by the general public of their time. Do you think Jesus received a royal burial?
Why do you say I am in support of "that doctrine"? Where do you get your delusions from?
I am here to expose the God delusion, not be in support of them.
That there is truth in Biblical accounts has nothing to do with the sect Christianity and Judaism.
You are here arguing in support of that doctrine Mr. Faith, that's not a delusion.
So you have redefined the Ten Commandments, as clearly even you must have been embarrassed to accept them as they were?
So now you have redefined them, but only as references, and how did you determine which commandment would be replaced by which of your directive references?
What then is your explanation for each of your referenced directives?
How will they be applied, understood, is that in your book of Constantine as well?
Quote from: Abdun Nur on August 30, 2017, 04:53:21 PM
Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
Peace, thread is all over same as prior thread asked simple question here:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609759.msg408835#msg408835
Unlike today's carelessness old scribes had system to distinguish e.g.
said written without alif address to one entity
19:42 اذ when
قل said لابىه to father his ىابت O father mine
said written with alif address more than one entity
21:52 اذ when
قال said لابىه to father his
وقومه and folk hisQuote from: clashncruz on August 31, 2017, 01:50:05 AM
I have mentioned in various places on this Forum the Mathematical and Statistical perfection of the Qur'an, facts that make it virtually impossible any human created this 1400 years ago;
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608259.msg383604#msg383604
Peace clashncruz, cannot use flipping columns etc., imprecise and numerous combinations with greater precision e.g.
1.61803398874989 (actual golden ratio)
1.61842374616172 (your calculation 7906/4885)
-0.0003897574118 (variance)
If want to keep even/odd symmetry as well remove any 2 verses from any of these chapters:
1,2,4,9,11,13,14,16,29,30,32,38,43,56,57,63,66,74,80,93,101
AND
remove any 4 verses from any of these chapters:
15,17,18,22,24,25,27,28,33,34,35,39,45,58,64,68,70,72,78,81,87,88,90,91,94,97,98,102,103,105,106,107,111,112,113,114
6555 6230 4883 7902 6230 6555
1.61803398874989 (actual golden ratio)
1.61826745852959 (7902/4883)
-0.0002334697797 (variance)
Abdun Nur,
What doctrine am I arguing for according to you?
I am arguing for a doctrine of soundness/sanity/healthiness (islam), one with maximum logic and consistency. That there were ten lines giving information about the human instinct thousands of years ago is just demonstrating there were intelligent beings back then. It is not their problem their intelligent teachings have been distorted and dishonored. If you are not expecting there to be remnants of wise men or women in the past you should probably apply some logic to your thinking.
You are deluded to think I argue for a doctrine of the common world religions. If anything I am searching for a glimpse of truth in all of them.
What relationship do I have to religions when I disqualify the usual God concept and fully incorporate the 'I am who I am' concept which means we can be like God if we only evolve our souls and strengthen it towards the bodily "interference". That concept was buried in nonsensical Hebrew and Aramaic interpretations by deluded clergymen and so-called scholars.
Why do you think Jesus brings up the bodily evil concept again and brings the light to combating the self's desires to pleasure-seeking?
This is because the teachings of old were dealing with bodily desires and the struggle against the force of Satan. The abused ten directives dealt with the instinctive bodily desires in man. Everything was about becoming Ethereal, to escape this world for a "high community".
The projection of Biblical religion that you have in your ignorance is a first millennium clerical invention when they tried to bring life in old writings they could not understand. It was a huge project for them and they ultimately failed, they brought separate texts into one (today's Bible), but disability to interpret archaic texts proved fatal to future understanding among religious people.
This miserable failure of theirs does not mean between the astonishingly misinterpreted texts you cannot find precious pearls of ancient wisdom and knowledge, if you can learn to decipher the ancient writings and bring life to them as according to their authors instead of deluded clergymen.
First of all, the wise ancient people did not speak of "God" because there is no God in manner of speaking, but God is a platform of existence or foundation or development platform and not a separate entity. Secondly, the words Allah, Allahem or Elohim, none of them speaks of God but this is a deluded religious illusion due to ignorance. The word Allah means "is being who" or "is like like who (is)". That is a third-person form of the ancient Hebrew phrase "Heyeh a'shar Heyeh" which means something like "Who I am is being Who I am", i.e. I am the one who I am, or I am the one who has my being.
So I can more or less say "I am Allah (Being) because I nurtured my mind".
Allah as a harsh and belittling dictator-like god is nothing but the projection of Pagan-minded clergymen over the years. Who created you did create you to excel, not to belittle you nor expect your worship. You were created to show potential to join the 'High Community' (Heaven) and you were given many obstacles in order to seriously test your mental power.
God according to the Pagan mind overshadowed the teachings of sane teachers. It is simply more popular to be a Pagan. Perhaps it is difficult for most to realize their potential to grow their mind and stay in ignorant bliss.
So please Abdun Nur, disconnect me from all those Pagan cults and never associate me with them again. You cannot be that dim-witted to insist on putting me in that category. I am an enlightened being who has brought life to ancient knowledge and its wisdom and the one who follows what is declared will grow mentally (spiritually).
(And the peeking dogmatic and zealous administration of this forum can banish me if you like, it does not matter to me and perchance you will face consequences with your forum platform as a result. No matter what you do the Earth will not be rid of me, yet)
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
I am weary of arguing with you, Abdun Nur. Expect no more answers from me here if we are just arguing pointlessly. My latest response clarifies everything, so I should not have to add anything.
Most of what I tell about the the human situation and susceptibility can be scientifically proven and I am countering the weak nature of an instinctive person with an opportunity to be something so much more. It is possible to suppress the instinct and the results are measurable and therefore it is possible to scientifically prove the benefits of doing so. Distancing oneself from the instinct feeds the mind.
Therefore I am not adhering to a belief but simple facts. I advise anyone to adhere to what is solid. This is why I have unshakable faith (confidence).
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Peace man of faith,
I am not arguing, I ask you to give the explanation and the methods of application, of the words that reference the concepts, you claim are the real ten commandments of the god or voice inside Moses head, or whatever gave the commandments, that is the true message of the old testament, originally covenant.
As for having any effect on your use of this forum, I am totally unconnected with any administrator or moderator of this forum, so do not worry you are quite safe from me, I have no power or desire to effect anyone?s use of this forum.
If you do not believe in a god, then why do you continue to misguide people with the term, also if you believe the term Allah to mean "is being who" or "is like like who (is)" how did you determine that meaning?
We differ on instinct. The innate exists in you from birth, originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience, while instinct is a natural intuitive power. Both are possessed; instinct is a base state, so creates a compulsion toward certain behaviour like fight or flight, satisfying hunger, lust, thirst; etcetera. While the innate is a higher state, which creates an inclination towards certain higher behaviours, such as virtues or being moral. So all instinct is innate but not all that is innate is instinct.
Why do i distinguish the innate from instinct?
Because instinct is of the perception, it only exists perceptually; while the innate is a fundamental state irrespective of the perception.
We are not a million miles apart in understanding, you are heavily invested in religion, which is seriously messing up your clarity, I do not know what you hope to gain from the foolish religions of the past, there is little enough truth in them, and so much bullshit it is best to distance yourself from them in my view, especially the Jewish ones.
Quote from: Man of Faith on September 03, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
Why do you think Jesus brings up the bodily evil concept again and brings the light to combating the self's desires to pleasure-seeking?
This is because the teachings of old were dealing with bodily desires and the struggle against the force of Satan. The abused ten directives dealt with the instinctive bodily desires in man. Everything was about becoming Ethereal, to escape this world for a "high community".
Can you write your translation of Ten Commandments, you seem to quote desires, but not commandments themselves.
Also, I would like to come back to the issue of Satan in the Bible. Your claim regarding Satan symbolizing bodily instincts or pursue of wordly life is not very consistent with Biblical narrative.
Jesus is refered as the morning star (Lucifer in Greek?) (
Revelation 22:16). One can tell from other verses that the 'brightness' is what should arise in the hearts of the believers (
2 Peter 1:19), but why would it [brightness] be refered to Satan in
Isaiah 14:12? So our instincts that are 'shining' have fallen?
Then again there is a semitic word
helel, which in Islam symbolizes something permitted (halal), but in Hebrew tradition it is to shine or symbolizes a shining one. The same word is used in Hebrew Bible in reference to what is traditionally called Satan. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm
Unless there is a logical and linguistic (preferably linguistic) re-interpretation of the above verses, do you agree that there is no point in saying that something was terribly misinterpretated?
Also, on the side note, if the Qur'an was terribly mistranslated by the scholars who could barely understand the language and used Hebrew and Aramaic in their efforts, why would they be even interested in the text in the first place? If they could not understand it, why would they even bother?
1. Adhere to the being of one
2. Take no image (item) and idolize it
3. Take not the command (word) on being in vain
4. Observe contemplation (Sabbateh)
5. Care for your neighbor as yourself
6. Do not defeat
7. Do not commit promiscuity
8. Do not exploit (steal)
9. Do not carry false testimony
10. Do not covet your neighbor's... possessions
I quoted desires because that is the underlying reason for each of them and what is of the instinct which causes one to break these directives.
That Satan is the human instinct is a logical explanation and consistent with the body of our being of an animal nature. There is nothing else which "whispers" to us except the bodies themselves.
I require further research if you are referring Satan to "helel", but I will look into the matter. It helps if you say which Semitic letters it is, but I take it you mean Ha-Lam-Lam.
I have all right saying it is probably horribly misinterpreted.
You obviously see there is some inconsistency in itself if one tradition interprets it as shining or brightness while the other as something else.
They were interested in it because obviously they could recognize it mysticism, and they saw it as their religious heritage, archaic or not.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel
Quote from: Man of Faith on September 04, 2017, 01:42:10 AM
I quoted desires because that is the underlying reason for each of them and what is of the instinct which causes one to break these directives.
That Satan is the human instinct is a logical explanation and consistent with the body of our being of an animal nature. There is nothing else which "whispers" to us except the bodies themselves.
I require further research if you are referring Satan to "helel", but I will look into the matter. It helps if you say which Semitic letters it is, but I take it you mean Ha-Lam-Lam.
I have all right saying it is probably horribly misinterpreted.
You obviously see there is some inconsistency in itself if one tradition interprets it as shining or brightness while the other as something else.
They were interested in it because obviously they could recognize it mysticism, and they saw it as their religious heritage, archaic or not.
Thanks for elaboration on the commandments. I always wondered that it should say do not exploit rather than steal, since steal is nothing compared to exploitation, but I also wonder how you came to it, why exploit in this case.
Semitic word is described here http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm , it is in Hebrew which is a different Semitic language than Arabic, so it does not look strange that two languages have different meanings.
The problem I have with
helel is a narrative one. If Satan is flesh, how can it be banished from Heaven and called a morning star or the shining one?