Free Minds

In search of a sincere guided believing woman who will take the time to actually read the text below!

Question.

"Is it only a part of the book you believe in and you reject the rest?"  (سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #85)

In the prophets will you find an excellent example??Question. Did any of them go to college? If so, what college did Muhammad (SAW) attend? ?. Did any of them read hadith? ?..Did any of them go among the disbelievers to hangout?

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them." (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #28)

Question. How can you guard yourselves from them if you go to school and work with them?

"They will not fail to corrupt you." (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #118)

Question. How can you hangout with them and you?re not corrupt?

"Then we put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way)" (سورة الجاثية, Al-Jaathiya, Chapter #45, Verse #18)

Question. Wouldn?t the right course be following exactly what Allah revealed in the Quran and what the Prophets (SAW) did in the Quran? What are you doing?

"And follow not the path of those who know not." (سورة يونس, Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #89)

Question. Who told you that you have to go to school to obtain a good job in order to provide for your family, does Allah encourage this in the Quran or are you following the worlds life! (I work from home and am a highschool dropout and Allah is the provider and he provides well through this source. I can teach my wife to work from home if she feels the need that she must work.)

"But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! And Allah is the Best to provide" (سورة الجمعة, Al-Jumu'a, Chapter #62, Verse #11) (Note Allah didn?t say you or college was the best provider.)

"Whoever, forsaking allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest." (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #119)

Tell m,e who then can find a righteous wife, when the Ummah is deceived by the life of this world and they were duped into following Hadith, when the Allah states that His guidance is the only guidance. Who can find a decent woman when the Ummah is being corrupted by the LGBT and the perverted transgressors communities that surround them and they refuse to move away from them?

Tell me, who can find a righteous wife when most women reject the parts of the Quran were it states you can marry 4 wives and believing girls, are you going to tell Allah to his face on the day of judgment that the men who do this commit bigotry and child molestation like the world says of our beloved prophet. Then who is your God?

"Therefore lend not thou support in any way to those who reject (Allah's Message)." (سورة القصص, Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #86)

Questions. Why are you so proudly supporting their college institutions by attending them, and why do you support their businesses by buying from them when you know they contribute to the deaths of your brothers in the east?

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least:" (سورة الأنعام, Al-An'aam, Chapter #6, Verse #159)

Question. How can you people then be sunni, shite, sufis, baha'is and ahmadiyyas, how rebellious can you be!

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favors on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;" (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #103) ??

Question. Who told you people to be racist and hate and be divided by color, Allah commanded that kindness is due to all people and you will pay everyone their due on the day of Judgment. How do you people discriminate hate and judge skin color, Allah said don?t fail to judge by the book, why are you judging by color or nationality?

I am looking for a believing muslim woman, one who knows and accepts the role that Allah has gave her. One who is devoutly obedient and does not try to assert authority (suggestions are fine), is submissive and recognizes the man as the head and leader. A women who is opposed to feminism and women empowerment because she knows it is against the natural order Allah has set. I will post a verse from the Quran:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard." (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #34)

So I will do my part as protector and maintainer and you do yours that you are commanded in that verse by Allah! And of course treat each other with kindness and respect and live in tranquility with one another if Allah wills.

Is there a righteous women out there who truly believes in Allah? If so then, show yourself.  ;)

Peace,

may i ask, as per 4:34, who are theese women supposed to be devoutly obedient to? you? or God?

also where in Gods books do you get that women are to be submissive, not assert authority, recognize the man as the head and leader?
because i am not aware of any of this in Gods revelations. as far as i am aware we are to live 'equitably' with our spouses.

you said :

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least:" (سورة الأنعام, Al-An'aam, Chapter #6, Verse #159)

Question. How can you people then be sunni, shite, sufis, baha'is and ahmadiyyas, how rebellious can you be!

who are YOU PEOPLE? i am not a sunni shi'a sufi baha'i ahmadiyah or any other sect, i trust in God, and his revelations, all of them, anyone else who does so is my brother or sister in trust.

as for all the other matters.

God DOES NOT forbid us from befreinding those who do not fight us because of our 'deen', only those who oppose God, his revelations or messengers.

"
Question. How can you guard yourselves from them if you go to school and work with them?
"
Did the prophet muhammad, or any other prophet run away and seclude himself from the people?
No, they were foremost in being among them, as there is a great example of in the gospel, where the hypocrites critisized jesus for assosciating with people they saw as wicked, to which he responded that 'the healthy are not in need of a doctor' i.e people that need the messsage of islam, which we are obligated to spread, and to strive for our lord for, are the people who wrong themselves.. Righteous people dont need to hear the message, they already know it..

Last but not least,

can you show me in the Books of God, any of them.. where every time god mentions the name of a prophet he immediately says SAW after it?

"
Question. Wouldn?t the right course be following exactly what Allah revealed in the Quran and what the Prophets (SAW) did in the Quran? What are you doing?

"And follow not the path of those who know not." (سورة يونس, Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #89)
"

or are you following the path of those who know not? i.e the hadith followers who claim we must say SAW after every prophet, or some other salutation, yet, they miss there salutation for the LORD OF ALL THAT IS!

Peace, may your lord grant you your wishes, you will certainly need his help with those requirements

Quote from: lyro34 on July 09, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
Question. Who told you that you have to go to school to obtain a good job in order to provide for your family, does Allah encourage this in the Quran or are you following the worlds life!

I like this question.

QuoteI work from home and am a highschool dropout

;D

QuoteTell me, who can find a righteous wife when most women reject the parts of the Quran were it states you can marry 4 wives and believing girls, are you going to tell Allah to his face on the day of judgment that the men who do this commit bigotry and child molestation like the world says of our beloved prophet. Then who is your God?

If someday you meet the suitable/right person, and then if you also have plan to practice polygamy in the future, I hope you will tell it (your plan) to a woman you're going to marry.

I'm not against polygamy if those who're involved (husband, current wife, prospective new wife) agree. However, I think it is injustice if the man hides his polygamy intention from the woman he's going to marry, thus I think it is pretty fair if before marriage a woman knows whether a man she's going to marry is a polygamous type or a monogamous type.

QuoteI am looking for a believing muslim woman, one who knows and accepts the role that Allah has gave her. One who is devoutly obedient and does not try to assert authority (suggestions are fine), is submissive and recognizes the man as the head and leader.

Hmm... how about mutual partnership and cooperation?

QuoteA women who is opposed to feminism and women empowerment because she knows it is against the natural order Allah has set.

I don't favor feminism, but what's wrong with women empowerment?

Peace.

Peace and welcome to the forum lyro34,

Quote from: lyro34 on July 09, 2016, 07:08:50 PMTell me, who can find a righteous wife when most women reject the parts of the Quran were it states you can marry 4 wives and believing girls, are you going to tell Allah to his face on the day of judgment that the men who do this commit bigotry and child molestation like the world says of our beloved prophet. Then who is your God?

Do you intend to marry 4 wives yourself? I ask because even many devout practicing strict sisters seem to be against polygamy. There are also many threads here that discuss the possibly that polygamy is only permissible when orphans are in need. Curious if you've read those threads, and what you think of them.

Quote from: lyro34 on July 09, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
I am looking for a believing muslim woman, one who knows and accepts the role that Allah has gave her. One who is devoutly obedient and does not try to assert authority (suggestions are fine), is submissive and recognizes the man as the head and leader. A women who is opposed to feminism and women empowerment because she knows it is against the natural order Allah has set. I will post a verse from the Quran:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard." (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #34)

So I will do my part as protector and maintainer and you do yours that you are commanded in that verse by Allah! And of course treat each other with kindness and respect and live in tranquility with one another if Allah wills.

Take a look at the information in the following link: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/obeying_husbands.html Tell me what you think of it. :)

Quote from: JavaLatte on July 09, 2016, 10:21:56 PM
I don't favor feminism, but what's wrong with women empowerment?

Peace.

I'm not a fan of (modern-day) feminism either... It's going too far here in the U.S., in my opinion. I care more about the injustices being committed against women where they're being brutally raped, tortured, treated like a slave, etc... and our injustices here in the U.S. seem to pale in comparison to these women who are facing such hardship.

Peace,

Quote from: Timotheus on July 09, 2016, 09:42:01 PM
Peace,

may i ask, as per 4:34, who are theese women supposed to be devoutly obedient to? you? or God?

also where in Gods books do you get that women are to be submissive, not assert authority, recognize the man as the head and leader?
because i am not aware of any of this in Gods revelations. as far as i am aware we are to live 'equitably' with our spouses.

"22.Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24.Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

We know Jesus is not the savior of course because the Quran let's us know, but the rest does not go against the Quran, if so, then prove it. We know Allah sent down all 3 books and we know Quran is the only one untouched but we can easily detect the falsehood by using the Quran as a guide.

Quote
you said :

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least:" (سورة الأنعام, Al-An'aam, Chapter #6, Verse #159)

Question. How can you people then be sunni, shite, sufis, baha'is and ahmadiyyas, how rebellious can you be!

who are YOU PEOPLE? i am not a sunni shi'a sufi baha'i ahmadiyah or any other sect, i trust in God, and his revelations, all of them, anyone else who does so is my brother or sister in trust.

Then it does not apply to you, that is for sunni, shite, sufis, baha'is and ahmadiyyas. As stated.

Quote
as for all the other matters.

God DOES NOT forbid us from befreinding those who do not fight us because of our 'deen', only those who oppose God, his revelations or messengers.

"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. " (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #76)

Simply by not obeying Allah they are fighting us. How do you not follow Allah, his revelations or his Prophets (SAW) and not be in opposition to all? Would you befriend enemies to Allah? How does that look?

Quote
"
Question. How can you guard yourselves from them if you go to school and work with them?
"
Did the prophet muhammad, or any other prophet run away and seclude himself from the people?
No, they were foremost in being among them, as there is a great example of in the gospel, where the hypocrites critisized jesus for assosciating with people they saw as wicked, to which he responded that 'the healthy are not in need of a doctor' i.e people that need the messsage of islam, which we are obligated to spread, and to strive for our lord for, are the people who wrong themselves.. Righteous people dont need to hear the message, they already know it..

Ah, but were they taking them as friends and hanging out having idle chit-chat like the hypocrites do today? Show me where it says that? And for seclusion, let me relate to you the story of the people of the cave:

"These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him: why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah?" (سورة الكهف, Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #15)

"When ye turn away from them and the things they worship other than Allah, betake yourselves to the cave: Your Lord will shower His mercies on you and disposes of your affair towards comfort and ease." (سورة الكهف, Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #16)

If the cave is not seclusion then what is? They isolated themselves away from the unbelievers. Anyone who disbelieves worships another god besides Allah, the moment you disobey Allah then you are obeying the satan, you follow your own lusts and take your desires and the satan as a god besides Allah. If they are not obeying Allah, then whatever they are obeying has became their god.

Quote
Last but not least,

can you show me in the Books of God, any of them.. where every time god mentions the name of a prophet he immediately says SAW after it?

"
Question. Wouldn?t the right course be following exactly what Allah revealed in the Quran and what the Prophets (SAW) did in the Quran? What are you doing?

"And follow not the path of those who know not." (سورة يونس, Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #89)
"

or are you following the path of those who know not? i.e the hadith followers who claim we must say SAW after every prophet, or some other salutation, yet, they miss there salutation for the LORD OF ALL THAT IS!

Easy, it's right in the Quran:

"Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect." (سورة الأحزاب, Al-Ahzaab, Chapter #33, Verse #56)

And what does SAW stand for? *nods* And why for the other Prophets (SAW)? Well we are commanded to make no distinction between any and her is the verses:

"To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. " (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #152)

"Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." " (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #84)

"The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." " (سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #285)

Quote
Peace, may your lord grant you your wishes, you will certainly need his help with those requirements

Allah arranges all affairs, Allah has already created for me mates of like nature, the only help is from Allah and believers require Allah's help for everything. "Those requirements" matches those of the books, everything is written in a book of decree before it is brought into existence so my wife has already been chosen, or, if it is not meant for me to get married then I just won't, I have no power, only Allah does. :) Peace.

Quote from: JavaLatte on July 09, 2016, 10:21:56 PM
If someday you meet the suitable/right person, and then if you also have plan to practice polygamy in the future, I hope you will tell it (your plan) to a woman you're going to marry.

I'm not against polygamy if those who're involved (husband, current wife, prospective new wife) agree. However, I think it is injustice if the man hides his polygamy intention from the woman he's going to marry, thus I think it is pretty fair if before marriage a woman knows whether a man she's going to marry is a polygamous type or a monogamous type.

Whether or not I have multiple wives is up to Allah, right now I am in search of one, and yes, I she will be informed as this thread is posted in search for a wife and she should be aware from what I have posted that it will definitely be a possibility but if she doesn't then I can make sure to confirm it. If she is a believer then she should already know that it is permissible in Islam. But yeah, I will edit and clarify that there is a possibility for me.

Quote
Hmm... how about mutual partnership and cooperation?

Yeah, but there has to be a leader, two heads on a body causes chaos. We can cooperate, we can compromise but there has to be a leader who makes the final decision. Another example is two Kings/Presidents over the same country, won't last and will be tons of chaos. If that is in anyway understandable?

Quote
I don't favor feminism, but what's wrong with women empowerment?

Empower: to give power to (someone), to give official authority or legal power to (someone)

All power belongs to Allah and all laws and authority have been given in his books, they are the only laws. Allah has given men a degree over women in both strength(very obvious by nature itself) and rights, I can get the verses for you if you like. :)

Peace.

Quote from: Comrox on July 09, 2016, 10:30:39 PM
Peace and welcome to the forum lyro34,

Peace and thanks for the welcome! Glad I finally found a place to where hadith is not law. >.>

Quote
Do you intend to marry 4 wives yourself? I ask because even many devout practicing strict sisters seem to be against polygamy. There are also many threads here that discuss the possibly that polygamy is only permissible when orphans are in need. Curious if you've read those threads, and what you think of them.

Thing is, it depends on what Allah decides for me. I think if I just get one woman who sticks by my side through thick and thin, believe in ALL of Allah's laws and follow them, then that will be enough for me. But since I have never been in a relationship before and I know that Allah stated that he has created man weak (in flesh), so I'd never rule out the possibility, and I don't hold it forbidden at all. And no I have not read those threads can you give me the links?

Quote
Take a look at the information in the following link: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/obeying_husbands.html Tell me what you think of it. :)

We can look in the previous books since Allah has sent down all three:

"22.Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24.Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

We know the Quran is the only book that remains untouched but I'd need verses to refute those verses from the bible, besides Jesus being the savior as we know only Allah can save.

"Men are to support women by what Allah has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The righteous women (صالحات) are obedient/dutiful women (قانتات); they keep private the matters for which Allah would keep watch over. As for those women from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in their sleeping place, and go away from them. Then If they yield to you, then do not seek a way over them; Allah is High, Great." (Qur'an 4:34)

Taking that directly from the link, if the women was equal to the man then why "Then If they yield to you", who's yielding to whom? The woman to the man, so one has to be over the other because when does it ever say or even possibly say that the man yields to/obeys the woman? Allah has given men a degree over women in both strength(very obvious by nature itself) and rights, I can get the verses for you if you like. :)

Hmmm, I have been on a few matrimony sites and I have to say that the response here are much better than on those. At least here people will give verses from what Allah has sent down rather than some random hadith. Now, hopefully all the good women are not taken. lol

Peace lyro,

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 01:06:23 AMThing is, it depends on what Allah decides for me. I think if I just get one woman who sticks by my side through thick and thin, believe in ALL of Allah's laws and follow them, then that will be enough for me. But since I have never been in a relationship before and I know that Allah stated that he has created man weak (in flesh), so I'd never rule out the possibility, and I don't hold it forbidden at all. And no I have not read those threads can you give me the links?

There's so many threads on polygamy quickly available that I feel it's not even necessary for me to post their links.

Just use the search function on the top of this page and search for polygamy. :)

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 01:06:23 AMWe can look in the previous books since Allah has sent down all three:

"22.Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24.Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

We know the Quran is the only book that remains untouched but I'd need verses to refute those verses from the bible, besides Jesus being the savior as we know only Allah can save.

I feel that Qur'an 30:21 paints a much more equal picture of husband and wife than the above Bible verse does:

30:21 "And from His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and mercy. In that are signs for a people who reflect."

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 01:06:23 AM"Men are to support women by what Allah has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The righteous women (صالحات) are obedient/dutiful women (قانتات); they keep private the matters for which Allah would keep watch over. As for those women from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in their sleeping place, and go away from them. Then If they yield to you, then do not seek a way over them; Allah is High, Great." (Qur'an 4:34)

Taking that directly from the link, if the women was equal to the man then why "Then If they yield to you", who's yielding to whom? The woman to the man, so one has to be over the other because when does it ever say or even possibly say that the man yields to/obeys the woman? Allah has given men a degree over women in both strength(very obvious by nature itself) and rights, I can get the verses for you if you like. :)

What you ask is included in the article:

QuoteUnderstanding of "ان اطعنكم - If they yield to you / obey you"

"...As for those women from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in their sleeping place, and go away from them. Then if they yield to you / obey you (فان اطعنكم), do not seek a way over them; Allah is High, Great." (Qur'an 4:34)

Let us establish important aspects of the verse:

1) This verse is for a situation where there is a marital problem between the two but it is the wife who is the main contributor to the situation but is not realising it.
2) The situation is such that marriage is on the brink of divorce as the verse after, 4:35 is suggesting ways to get the couple back together using external help.


Given this, we see that this portion of the verse, which follows after the husbands attempt at reconciliation is mentioned, is referring to a realisation of the wife of her errors and thus "Then if they yield to you / obey you - فان اطعنكم" is referring her responding to the husbands attempts (i.e. "advise them, and abandon them in their sleeping place, and go away from them") - again, in this case, the wife is in error. "if they yield to you / obey you - ان اطعنكم here, is referring to her reverting back to understanding (the deviation from which is causing the marital problems) upon husband's attempts. Therefore, it is not saying women must 'obey' their husbands in marriage.

This point is further emphasised by the use of the Arabic word "fa / ف" to link the two together, which means "Then / So / in that case"...i.e. "then(ف) if they then yield to you - فان اطعنكم". This emphasises that this section is referring to the previous bit (the husband's attempts at reconciliation).

source: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/obeying_husbands.html

There is a verse I remember that addresses a wife fearing high-handedness from her husband (instead of the other way around), but I can't find the verse. Something about if they come to a settlement there will be no sin on either of them?

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 01:06:23 AMHmmm, I have been on a few matrimony sites and I have to say that the response here are much better than on those. At least here people will give verses from what Allah has sent down rather than some random hadith. Now, hopefully all the good women are not taken. lol

Haha. Well aside from the regular members there are a lot of guests visiting this site daily, so you could spark a woman's interest, even if she is not a member of this forum (yet). ;) But we also seem to find things when we're not looking for them, so if you're open-minded and patient, who knows what may happen. :)

Peace,

Quote from: Comrox on July 10, 2016, 02:21:50 AM
Peace lyro,

There's so many threads on polygamy quickly available that I feel it's not even necessary for me to post their links.

Just use the search function on the top of this page and search for polygamy. :)

I feel that Qur'an 30:21 paints a much more equal picture of husband and wife than the above Bible verse does:

30:21 "And from His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and mercy. In that are signs for a people who reflect."

But it doesn't say both are equal besides, if the man was created first and then the woman from the man, then already the man and woman are not equal. The order of creation was man and then woman, and again, woman from the man, not vice-versa.

Quote
What you ask is included in the article:

source: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/obeying_husbands.html

That's their interpretation of the verse however they have still not proved that it is not talking about the husband(or maybe I failed to see?). True all should be devoutly obedient to Allah and obedience to Allah is stated throughout the Quran, however it is clear that men do have a degree over women(or at least to me it is clear), and since we are to go by all of the books Allah has revealed, you cannot disregard the bible, what I posted from the bible about the wife does not contradict the Quran and to my knowledge, does not contradict itself in the bible either(could but I am not aware at least). What I also know is that the world pumps equality for all, while yes I believe in being kind to all and respecting all, by nature women are not equal to men. And another thing is how in the Quran the believing men and women asked for a son rather than a daughter, if they are both equal then why? Why were all the Prophets (SAW) male?(meaning the religious leaders we know are all male!) Why is the only female mentioned by name in the Quran Mary?

"What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Has then your Lord (O Pagans!) preferred for you sons, and taken for himself daughters among the angels? Truly ye utter a most dreadful saying! " (سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #40)

"What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? " (سورة الزخرف, Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #16)

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. " (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #59)

So we differ among ourselves, let's refer it to Allah and his messenger (SAW) and any of the messengers (SAW), who were the head of their household? Who obeyed whom? It is stated multiple times that the messengers (SAW) were to be obeyed, so if we refer it to them then what conclusion do we draw? Like I have stated before, 2 heads on one body causes conflict/chaos, 2 kings causes conflict/chaos, 2 gods equals conflict, so 2 heads of the household causes conflict/chaos, if Allah created in perfect order and disposes of everything in a perfect order, then did he not place an order for the household? If something creates conflict/chaos then can you say it is from Allah who places things in perfect order? I know the world promotes that both sexes are equal and that women who obey and are submissive to their husbands are oppressed but the majority of this world is astray and don't obey Allah, the straight path is steep and narrow.

Quote
Haha. Well aside from the regular members there are a lot of guests visiting this site daily, so you could spark a woman's interest, even if she is not a member of this forum (yet). ;) But we also seem to find things when we're not looking for them, so if you're open-minded and patient, who knows what may happen. :)

Yeah, whenever Allah wills that is when it will happen, we are all on his time. :D

Quote from: Comrox on July 09, 2016, 10:30:39 PM
I'm not a fan of (modern-day) feminism either... It's going too far here in the U.S., in my opinion. I care more about the injustices being committed against women where they're being brutally raped, tortured, treated like a slave, etc... and our injustices here in the U.S. seem to pale in comparison to these women who are facing such hardship.

Since I'm not U.S. citizen, thus I can't comment much on that, but I think you're a rare type of woman, sister. I mean, it seems not many women in U.S. have the wisdom and humbleness that you have.

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 01:06:23 AM
All power belongs to Allah and all laws and authority have been given in his books, they are the only laws. Allah has given men a degree over women in both strength(very obvious by nature itself) and rights, I can get the verses for you if you like. :)

No, thanks. I suppose I could imagine the verse you're going to use support your opinion.

Anyway, I think we don't have agreement on "women empowerment" issue, but I'm not having mood for debate.  :peace:

Peace, i do not seek the ignorant,

if your going to back up your rediculous views based on the authority of paul and his letter to the church in ephesus.. realy..?

as for your other views, you have some valid points, you also have a severely distorted understanding of the quran..
but regardless it seems you have made up your mind..

Peace

Quote from: JavaLatte on July 10, 2016, 06:17:37 AM
No, thanks. I suppose I could imagine the verse you're going to use support your opinion.

Anyway, I think we don't have agreement on "women empowerment" issue, but I'm not having mood for debate.  :peace:

Peace, thanks for taking the time to read though. Didn't post this topic for a debate with people. ^^' Unless people are potentially interested in marriage with me, I don't think people really should post here. o.o PMs would be better in my opinion.

Quote from: Timotheus on July 10, 2016, 06:21:01 AM
Peace, i do not seek the ignorant,

if your going to back up your rediculous views based on the authority of paul and his letter to the church in ephesus.. realy..?

as for your other views, you have some valid points, you also have a severely distorted understanding of the quran..
but regardless it seems you have made up your mind..

Peace

Here are some more verses from the bible: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Wife-Submit-To-Your-Husband/

Unless they are all written by Paul?

And as for me having a distorted understanding of the Quran, Allah will judge that and settle the matters where we differ but for you to say my understanding is distorted, then produce your proof if you are truthful? Back up anything you are stating by the Quran or otherwise, so far I have only seen conjecture with no verses to back your claims at all. But anyways, this is my matrimony thread, not a debate thread, so you can PM me if you you have any further concerns.

Peace, i do not seek the ignorant.

peace lyro,

Welcome to the forum. I skimmed your posts, and here are three points:

You claim man was created first:

...is the One who created you from one soul (grammar: feminine), and He made from it (grammar: feminine) its mate (grammar: masculine) to reside with... [4:1, 7:189]


You claim wives submit to husbands, see part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2


You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.

peace Comrox,
The verse you were thinking of is 4:128, which is also analysed in part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2

Quote from: Wakas on July 10, 2016, 08:38:30 AM
peace lyro,

Welcome to the forum. I skimmed your posts, and here are three points:

You claim man was created first:

...is the One who created you from one soul (grammar: feminine), and He made from it (grammar: feminine) its mate (grammar: masculine) to reside with... [4:1, 7:189]


You claim wives submit to husbands, see part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2


You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.

Peace wakas,

are you implying that female was created first?
grammatical gender, in my understanding is not always related to natural gender.

Peace

edit: i mean, in this case neither a soul, nor a mate have a natural gender.. in my understanding, so the gender is entirely grammatical..

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AM
Peace,

But it doesn't say both are equal besides, if the man was created first and then the woman from the man, then already the man and woman are not equal. The order of creation was man and then woman, and again, woman from the man, not vice-versa.

The hadith about women being created from a man's rib supports this viewpoint. But you've already said you don't believe in hadith.

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AMThat's their interpretation of the verse however they have still not proved that it is not talking about the husband(or maybe I failed to see?).

To me the verse is demonstrating a situation where the wife is at fault. So the wife, given that she is the one at fault, should obey her husband not because he is a man, but because she's the one in the wrong and she needs to listen to him to make the situation right again.

4:128 "And if a woman fears from her husband desertion or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do."

If the husband is the one in the wrong, as demonstrated in the verse above, then the husband is the one who needs to "do right."

(Maybe even this verse and the next, 4:129, could be an argument against common polygamy because in 4:128, the woman is fearing that her husband will leave her. In 4:129, the husband is told to not leave her hanging, and also that he cannot be fair to women no matter how hard he tries. But in 4:3 we're told if a husband fears he can't be fair to multiple wives, then he can only marry one wife. "And you will not be able to be fair regarding the women even if you make every effort" is a warning to men. So a man should always return to his wife if he wishes to do right. As 4:129 says men can't be fair to women, their only option is to marry only one anyway (I guess unless he feels his injustice to the orphans would be greater than the injustice for taking another wife?). But considering the context laid out in 4:127, when looking at 4:128 again it seems the current wife, if there is one, should have a say/influence over her husband if he wants to take in a mother of an orphan as a second wife while the current wife is against it. So the current husband and wife should reconcile and talk it out and do what is right for them. If the wife is really against it, then the right decision for the husband would be to not take another wife.)

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AMTrue all should be devoutly obedient to Allah and obedience to Allah is stated throughout the Quran, however it is clear that men do have a degree over women(or at least to me it is clear),

2:228 "And those divorced shall wait for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And the obligations owed to them are to be fulfilled, as are the obligations owed by them. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them in this. And God is Noble, Wise."

Guessing the bolded part is what you are referring to? If there's another verse you have in mind, please enlighten me.

The context of 2:228 is about a separated couple, with a pregnancy, or the possibly of a pregnancy. If a woman is pregnant, and the man and woman want to remain together, they should be together to support each other and support their growing family. The men have a greater responsibility over the women in this situation because the husband is responsible for emotionally and financially supporting his wife and their family as she is the one carrying his child.

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AMand since we are to go by all of the books Allah has revealed, you cannot disregard the bible, what I posted from the bible about the wife does not contradict the Quran and to my knowledge, does not contradict itself in the bible either(could but I am not aware at least). What I also know is that the world pumps equality for all, while yes I believe in being kind to all and respecting all, by nature women are not equal to men.

By physical nature yes we are not equal. I agree with you on that. ;) Although I think I'd prefer to say we simply have physical differences... men and women are different. :)

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AMAnd another thing is how in the Quran the believing men and women asked for a son rather than a daughter, if they are both equal then why? Why were all the Prophets (SAW) male?(meaning the religious leaders we know are all male!) Why is the only female mentioned by name in the Quran Mary?

Humankind has pretty much always lived in a male-dominated society, until recent years where there has been some change in some areas. Male prophets were someone many males listening to the message could relate to, perhaps. And when the people retaliated against a messenger, perhaps men were able to withstand the punishments/consequences/emotional roller coaster better than their female counterparts. Maybe this thread has the answer: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14340.0

Isn't Mary mentioned in high regard in the Qur'an?

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AM"What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!" (سورة النجم, An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #21)

"Has then your Lord (O Pagans!) preferred for you sons, and taken for himself daughters among the angels? Truly ye utter a most dreadful saying! " (سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #40)

"What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? " (سورة الزخرف, Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #16)

When I've read these verses I've always taken the tone to be negative. We shouldn't assume angels are only female, and we shouldn't prefer sons over daughters. Before one of these types of verses I remember a few verses detailing a story of a man who was in despair because his wife gave birth to a daughter. But all sons and daughters are for humans - Not just sons. 

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 03:18:31 AM"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. " (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #59)

So we differ among ourselves, let's refer it to Allah and his messenger (SAW) and any of the messengers (SAW), who were the head of their household? Who obeyed whom? It is stated multiple times that the messengers (SAW) were to be obeyed, so if we refer it to them then what conclusion do we draw? Like I have stated before, 2 heads on one body causes conflict/chaos, 2 kings causes conflict/chaos, 2 gods equals conflict, so 2 heads of the household causes conflict/chaos, if Allah created in perfect order and disposes of everything in a perfect order, then did he not place an order for the household? If something creates conflict/chaos then can you say it is from Allah who places things in perfect order? I know the world promotes that both sexes are equal and that women who obey and are submissive to their husbands are oppressed but the majority of this world is astray and don't obey Allah, the straight path is steep and narrow.

Yeah, whenever Allah wills that is when it will happen, we are all on his time. :D

Why does there even have to be a head of household? Why does one person in a household have to be dominant and make all the decisions?

The messengers were to be obeyed, of course. But to my knowledge that command wasn't addressed simply to women, but to all people willing to hear the message. God's message is meant for all.

Quote from: JavaLatte on July 10, 2016, 06:14:50 AM
Since I'm not U.S. citizen, thus I can't comment much on that, but I think you're a rare type of woman, sister. I mean, it seems not many women in U.S. have the wisdom and humbleness that you have.

Aw, thanks sis. :) I definitely know I am not the only woman here who thinks this way, though. ;)

Quote from: Wakas on July 10, 2016, 08:39:37 AM
peace Comrox,
The verse you were thinking of is 4:128, which is also analysed in part 2:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2

Thanks Wakas! :) Thanks for your efforts.

Quote from: Wakas on July 10, 2016, 08:38:30 AM
You claim the husband does not have to provide for the family, see the verses cited here:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm


Let us know your thoughts.

I don't think lyro ever claimed that the husband doesn't have to provide for his wife. He seemed to be simply questioning the role of a university education in obtaining a career. And you seem to be doing pretty well for yourself, lyro. ;)

Quote from: lyro34 on July 10, 2016, 06:47:04 AM
Peace, thanks for taking the time to read though. Didn't post this topic for a debate with people. ^^' Unless people are potentially interested in marriage with me, I don't think people really should post here. o.o PMs would be better in my opinion.

Opps, just saw this, I apologize. Threads do tend to get derailed into conversation though, even the introduction threads as you can see. ;D

Quote from: lyro34 on July 09, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
In search of a sincere guided believing woman who will take the time to actually read the text below!

Hi Lyro welcome to the forum  :handshake:

Just wondering how many love letters you got so far.

It is symptomatic that people with very low self-esteem clieng to straw to get reinforced.

There is a saying in Italian: Traduttore-tradittore,that is

translator-traitor and in that aya of the Qur'an the traitor part is not a slip but the whole aya that is completely betrayed.

It must be great to believe that by the mere fact of having something hanging between the leg you are called to a very high destiny which gives you authority over half of humanity.

Of course, there is no such authority but plain gullibility whe anybody, man or woman, because of what he or she has between the legs, gets something given automatically.

Any man who comes with that line is asking to be cheated, because he has already shown that he is "so easily, so very easily" cheated.

Men are for women not the other way around. Woome guaranty the cotinuation of the species at their own cost, men must contribute being the suport of woen, not the other way around. And Saint Paul and is no authority on the Qur'an.

Gullibility comes out expensive even if for a while makes people feel great.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on July 11, 2016, 03:22:20 AM
It is symptomatic that people with very low self-esteem clieng to straw to get reinforced.

There is a saying in Italian: Traduttore-tradittore,that is

translator-traitor and in that aya of the Qur'an the traitor part is not a slip but the whole aya that is completely betrayed.

It must be great to believe that by the mere fact of having something hanging between the leg you are called to a very high destiny which gives you authority over half of humanity.

Of course, there is no such authority but plain gullibility whe anybody, man or woman, because of what he or she has between the legs, gets something given automatically.

Any man who comes with that line is asking to be cheated, because he has already shown that he is "so easily, so very easily" cheated.

Men are for women not the other way around. Woome guaranty the cotinuation of the species at their own cost, men must contribute being the suport of woen, not the other way around. And Saint Paul and is no authority on the Qur'an.

Gullibility comes out expensive even if for a while makes people feel great.

Salaam

Peace

you raised some valid points,

however, can we call it even and say men are women are equal lol?
i thought if i recall correctly that god created human beings to dwell in tranquility with each other, or something like that
i cant find the verse though at this time

Peace

these realtionship issues and things connected to these issues are worst things i have ever encounter,

becoz we want to apply the same rules on different nature of women/man in some cases it works in some cases its not,,

as a personal experience we should not get married with somebody who is not at the level of other person by wealth, education, status, nationality, color, and most important faith and religion..

if any one lacks in anything , the other side male or female always torture their mate.. so i think before getting married or realtion all these things make clear otherwise there is no result will come apart from breakup or depression in home which will cause more harm...

Quote from: Timotheus on July 11, 2016, 08:23:01 AM
Peace

you raised some valid points,

however, can we call it even and say men are women are equal lol?
i thought if i recall correctly that god created human beings to dwell in tranquility with each other, or something like that
i cant find the verse though at this time

Peace

Obviously men and men are not equal. Women bear all the physical burden of reproduction, men don't. To pretend that on top of that or may be because of that men should lord over women is obviously abusive. That is not what the Qur'an says, what the Qur'an says in that mistreated aya 4.34 is that men should be a full support for women (not to be confused with being a boss) men are free of the burden of reproduction, but they still benefit of the fact that humanity continues because it reproduces, therefore if balance is going to exist in society men must contribute to balance the women's extra burden as the Qur'an provides.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on July 11, 2016, 05:15:04 PM
Obviously men and men are not equal. Women bear all the physical burden of reproduction, men don't. To pretend that on top of that or may be because of that men should lord over women is obviously abusive. That is not what the Qur'an says, what the Qur'an says in that mistreated aya 4.34 is that men should be a full support for women (not to be confused with being a boss) men are free of the burden of reproduction, but they still benefit of the fact that humanity continues because it reproduces, therefore if balance is going to exist in society men must contribute to balance the women's extra burden as the Qur'an provides.

Salaam

Peace, yes i would agree that men are to be a support for women, not an overlord lol. However that is my point, that there is a balance in that they do their part, and we (should) do ours.

Their physical burden is being a giver instead while the burden of her is brought out of her.

They give seed, give protection, give development, give food, give money, et cetera. Also the meaning of the Arabic word abbu (giver).

Amm means "be from" as a word usually translated mother, but mum and mamma come from the same "mmm" signification (the letter م has that inherent use among the mysterious Semitic letters).

Apart from this there is no more 'physical' use of the body except what is vain and thus acquired vanity. The rest is spiritual.

Be well
Amenuel

The point is that when it comes to women, for some people, their part, that of women, becomes very creative, never mind reproduction they have more important things to do like pleasing and being on attendance of males and to live for them and not having a life and will of their own.

Like they confuse reproducing with dressing this or that way or undressing this or that way, or with washig dishes or crubbing floors... a whole variety.

Thank God the Qur'an is very clear. Something which on the other hand is easily arrangd with some translation, creative interpretation and some hadith which seems to arrange arrange some people. On the other hand it is also clear that the Qur'an says women and men should be friends a allies of each other,which by the way also some people find fault with, since for them women should only have women friends.

Salaam

Quote from: Man of Faith on July 12, 2016, 03:37:53 AM

They give seed, give protection, give development, give food, give money, et cetera. Also the meaning of the Arabic word abbu (giver).

giver  :rotfl:

infact yes man and womens are equal but not identical,,, they are giver and womens are taker, in everything.. but this does not make women low in grade, problem started when we compare eachother..

peace

but a question if abbu mean giver then instead of kids wife need to call husband abbu,,

I hve the feeling that this is getting silly.

Woman gives of herself to a new creature, almost everything. Who is he giver?

The fact is that the woman is always the giver and the males are givers only when they obey God and do give. Both are givers if the males obey God and not their royal egos.

Salaam

two givers cannot take place in one time, i.e  women and man are equal but not identical, example is the feature of body...

male give a seed and women keep that seed in the womb to create another creature by the will of God.. bt its man who is responsible for the determination of sex of child either its male or female..(scientificaaly proven)

due to this ignorant people will not blame their daughter in law for giving birth to baby girl if they only know the sex of child is detrmined by male...

thats why we have different features of body.. other wise both male and female always fight for giving seed lol

What is this nonsense about fighting? Why ome people assoon as something is said that does not fit in their idea they have to start with the fighting nonsese.

Giving. So the male gives a litle drop of semen, which mostly he does for the sake of enjoyment and he is the giver. The woman gives a full body of a new person and she is nnot the giver.

There is only an animal that bigger than whales and it is some males when their ego is wheighted with them.


And I suppose, after writing this I am entitled to a few more pages about the sex fighting crap. For God's sake, as if there were no males that are reasonable and do not come up with this kind of childish jealousy of women as if the males were robbed of all the stardom.


Salaam

Quote from: imrankhawaja on July 12, 2016, 10:43:08 AM
two givers cannot take place in one time, i.e  women and man are equal but not identical, example is the feature of body...

male give a seed and women keep that seed in the womb to create another creature by the will of God.. bt its man who is responsible for the determination of sex of child either its male or female..(scientificaaly proven)

In regards to seed...

Peace all,

Actually, this is merely philosophy and hair splitting. Yes, technically, the male is the "giver".
But why would "giver" be better than "receiver"? However, to call the male "the giver" is rather odd, because the male, the person, is not committed in any deliberate action of giving that could be praised as such, especially not in comparison to the receiving part. The male is just having a biological response to stimulation, which makes the body do all the giving all by itself. The man is not really deliberately doing any giving. At least he is not engaged in anything that is better or more praise worthy that what the female is into. It's all automatic and effortless.

During pregnancy and childbirth on the other hand, the woman is going through infinitely much more than the man would even come close to in comparison. The body of the male gives a "deposit", and the body of the woman does the rest which is also experienced fully by the mind/awareness of the woman throughout, until birth of the child.

So if anyone is doing anything, it is the female.

Females have the unfertilized eggs within and for them to be fertilized semen is required and the male is hence the giver to initiate pregnancy while the finished baby comes out of her (hence why a mother is called Amm which linguistically means "be from"). That is fundamentally the meaning of "abbu" in conjunction to biology. A female Homo Sapiens needs to be given semen in order to conceive.

Except biologically the word obviously has many metaphorical meanings such as caretaker and tutor. Rabb is a word closely related to this word.

Imran,

It would not really be correct to call the husband abbu since it would infer that he is her tutor in life which is unlikely the case since a man and woman cleave unto each other and become as one flesh (body) and draw strengths from each other's gender identities. He is technically not her abbu either even if one can be called an abbu if fostered a nation of people such as Abraham (heard of father Abraham?). It is from thence that the term father emerged and within the church the clerics are called fathers (while they biologically are not). This is because of the nature of the word abbu meaning more than biological father linguistically.

Beyond biology no one should have a gender identity as those are driven by the instinct. It is like saying a woman should not be a woman and a man should not be a man. Now the fact is we are within gendered bodies, but we should separate ourselves from those and go searching for the spiritual which is above the bodies.

If we speak philosophically, a husband is Rabb while the wife is Ramm, i.e. 'Foundation-Giver' versus 'Foundation Therefrom'. Ramm is the root of Miryem's name and it does NOT mean rotten or decayed.

Be well
Amenuel

My only objection is when men find themselves more important, or higher, just because they "are " so called "givers". The "giver" is actually the male body, and not the conscious male being/psyche. The aware being only plays along with what the biology of the body acts out. I find it stupid when men (almost always religious men) pick up anything and everything to show how great and superior men are to women.
:sun:

So the male is giver becuse he give a tiny thing, the woman alo gives her tiny thing an on top of that a whole lot more by weight may be in a proportion of millions to one and still the male is the giver?

What? he gives that tiny gthing to the woman? The woman does not need that tiny thing at all. What he gives she does not get it, it is the new criature that gets it and apart that tiny bit it is the whole body of the new personn that the woman gives. An still the male is the giver?

I hope those who say that will never work as accountants. The world would end.

Woman a receiver? She? she adds to what the other gives and gives many millions more on top of that and she i not agiver but a receiver. 

Sometimes I feel rather hopeless as to the thinnking capacity of humans. Not all of course, but really...

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on July 12, 2016, 02:55:06 PM
So the male is giver becuse he give a tiny thing, the woman alo gives her tiny thing an on top of that a whole lot more by weight may be in a proportion of millions to one and still the male is the giver?

What? he gives that tiny gthing to the woman? The woman does not need that tiny thing at all. What he gives she does not get it, it is the new criature that gets it and apart that tiny bit it is the whole body of the new personn that the woman gives. An still the male is the giver?

I hope those who say that will never work as accountants. The world would end.

Woman a receiver? She? she adds to what the other gives and gives many millions more on top of that and she i not agiver but a receiver. 

Sometimes I feel rather hopeless as to the thinnking capacity of humans. Not all of course, but really...

Salaam

What is according you the role of the male in reproduction?

Quote
The woman does not need that tiny thing at all.

Need or need, but she will not become pregnant without it.

The baby is still brought out of a woman and this is what the word for mother means linguistically.

The semen pregnancy trigger is what causes a father to be called abbu in Arabic and it somehow means "to give". Without this giving there will be no fetus and the egg from the ovary will pass straight out of the uterus.

What kind of "thinking capacity" is missing in this highly logical explanation and which involves Arabic linguistics as well?

Be well
Amenuel

I did not imply on any kind of superiority to either sex but was simply factual and based on the science of biology.

That men are the way described, "high and mighty" (in their dreams) is due to their instinctive drive and is instinctively in their desire to reach a high status which is the typical trait and an instinctive female will drool at this "successful" male. By instinct the male seeks to have the woman under their leadership, just as others they can control/affect. It is in the nature of the male sex of the Homo sapiens.

Be well
Amenuel

Peace Comrox,

Quote from: Comrox on July 10, 2016, 04:42:53 PM
To me the verse is demonstrating a situation where the wife is at fault. So the wife, given that she is the one at fault, should obey her husband not because he is a man, but because she's the one in the wrong and she needs to listen to him to make the situation right again.

4:128 "And if a woman fears from her husband desertion or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do."

If the husband is the one in the wrong, as demonstrated in the verse above, then the husband is the one who needs to "do right."

No judgment has been passed in a court of law finding the wife/husband at fault in those verses so I disagree with what you said in red. The verses just talk about "fear" of "nushooz" and not actual "nushooz" which could as well be paranoia of the husband or the wife. 4:34 appears to be misogynistic, unfair and discriminatory in that respect especially when compared with 4:128.

Why does 4:128 not say the same thing from wife's point of view to "advise her husband, then abandon him in his bed, and then "dharab" him"? So when it is the wife's turn to "fear" "nushooz" from husband, just reconcile. Wow, nice (sarcastic). Does not seem possible coming from a fair, just and wise Infinite Creator.

QuoteHumankind has pretty much always lived in a male-dominated society, until recent years where there has been some change in some areas. Male prophets were someone many males listening to the message could relate to, perhaps. And when the people retaliated against a messenger, perhaps men were able to withstand the punishments/consequences/emotional roller coaster better than their female counterparts. Maybe this thread has the answer: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14340.0

Your statement in red is factually incorrect. Even when the quran was being channeled, there were powerful contemporary female rulers over large areas, ruling an obviously female-dominated society.

Please see the following post for evidence:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607127.msg361343#msg361343

Also please read the following thread in its entirety for discussion of another seemingly misogynistic and discriminatory verse:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607127.0

QuoteWhen I've read these verses I've always taken the tone to be negative. We shouldn't assume angels are only female, and we shouldn't prefer sons over daughters. Before one of these types of verses I remember a few verses detailing a story of a man who was in despair because his wife gave birth to a daughter. But all sons and daughters are for humans - Not just sons.

Agreed. Those verses (53:21, 17:40, 43:16) also appear misogynistic and discriminatory as if sons are superior to daughters.

Peace

Salaam/Peace to All,

I believe "Mother" (Woman) should always come first, "Father" (Man) second.

=============
15-  And We enjoined human to do good to his/her two-parents.
(Because) his/her Mother bore him/her with hardship, gave birth to him/her in hardship,
and his/her bearing and weaning lasts thirty months.
So that, when he/she has reached his/her independence, and has reached forty years,
he /she should say:
"My LORD, direct me to appreciate the Blessings YOU have bestowed upon me
and upon my two-parents (=i.e. Mother and Father as emphasized (especially due to that specific Reason) above, --not Father and Mother)
and to do good work that pleases YOU.
And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to YOU; I am of those who have surrendered (to YOUR Will).

QURAN TESTAMENT 46/15
=========================


And perhaps, in this respect again, for example:

Prophet Aaron (Peace be upon Him) calls Prophet Moses (Peace be upon Him) as:

"the Son of my Mother" (=7/150)  --not as: "the Son of my Father."

Something to reflect on!



Remain in peace/salaam.   

Quote from: Man of Faith on July 12, 2016, 03:16:38 PM
Need or need, but she will not become pregnant without it.

The baby is still brought out of a woman and this is what the word for mother means linguistically.

The semen pregnancy trigger is what causes a father to be called abbu in Arabic and it somehow means "to give". Without this giving there will be no fetus and the egg from the ovary will pass straight out of the uterus.

What kind of "thinking capacity" is missing in this highly logical explanation and which involves Arabic linguistics as well?

Be well
Amenuel

You miss the whole thing. Shedoes not get pregant for herself but for somebody else the new creature she does not get anything out of male, she does not need anything out of the male, the new creature does. And the new creature needs the mother seed not less than the fathers and apart from the seed the new creature does not get anything given by the male, but everyting given by the female.

Not the male is doing a favour to the female. But does it to himself by perpetuating the species with such minimal concribution. While the woman contributes far, farmoreto such perpetuation and does so a great favour to the male.

Just a little fun for a few minute does not convert a man into a giver, however, obeying God and following the examle of the prophets will make of them real givers.

Why there is such a penchant in some males to think just because of their being males they are entitled to all kinds of regards while women just for a shitty acknowledgement never seem to be good enough.

odispute who is a greaer giver in reproduction is beyond ridiculous.

Jealousy of women seems to be rampant and then there are some who still dare sometimes to say that women want to be like men


  :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Salaam 

peace t11,

Quote from: truthseeker11 on July 12, 2016, 03:54:51 PM
4:34 appears to be misogynistic, unfair and discriminatory in that respect especially when compared with 4:128.

Why does 4:128 not say the same thing from wife's point of view to "advise her husband, then abandon him in his bed, and then "dharab" him"? So when it is the wife's turn to "fear" "nushooz" from husband, just reconcile. Wow, nice (sarcastic). Does not seem possible coming from a fair, just and wise Infinite Creator.

Actually, there is one (and perhaps only one?) translation that provides perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 with regard to the point you raise. Scroll down a bit:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3


peace Timotheus,
I was hoping lyro would respond before replying to your question. I will give him some more time.

Quote from: Zulf on July 12, 2016, 01:56:26 PM
In regards to seed...

Peace all,

Actually, this is merely philosophy and hair splitting. Yes, technically, the male is the "giver".
But why would "giver" be better than "receiver"?

During pregnancy and childbirth on the other hand, the woman is going through infinitely much more than the man would even come close to in comparison. The body of the male gives a "deposit", and the body of the woman does the rest which is also experienced fully by the mind/awareness of the woman throughout, until birth of the child.

So if anyone is doing anything, it is the female.

i did not say anybody better, i said both are equal, but not identical regarding body .i m feeling bit awkward now,  becoz everybody thinks giver is always on upperhand, the one who gives lol , but its wrong thinking , giver and taker both are in need of eachother, and the enjoyment bring a new creature in which mother play a big role,,

thats y i told you iif a women bring a baby girl and people curse her and say things to her , but infact its the male sperms that determine the sex, thats what i was on about...

Quote from: Zulf on July 12, 2016, 01:56:26 PM

My only objection is when men find themselves more important, or higher, just because they "are " so called "givers"

your objection is hundred percent correct , but due to this we cannot take the right of giver, lol , both are important not only one giver or taker,  whether its so called giver, or so called takers,,or tyres of car, everything need to interlock with eachother for running the system of life.. if one damage car will not run...

Quote from: huruf on July 12, 2016, 02:55:06 PM
So the male is giver becuse he give a tiny thing, the woman alo gives her tiny thing an on top of that a whole lot more by weight may be in a proportion of millions to one and still the male is the giver?

What? he gives that tiny gthing to the woman? The woman does not need that tiny thing at all. What he gives she does not get it, it is the new criature that gets it and apart that tiny bit it is the whole body of the new personn that the woman gives. An still the male is the giver?

once a giver always a giver.. lol

you cannot take a status of giver from him, he gives a seed , its seed that make a tree of mango but seed is always tiny in size its the womb/earth that make it grow big but truth remain truth from seed a tree/new creature will start..

but this does not mean giver got a upper hand you totally misunderstood me if you are reffering this to me , what i actually wanted to say at that time it was in favor of women in most of the socities womens get blame for giving birth to babygirl and infact its male seed that determine the male or female so female is not responsible for giving birth to babyboy or baby girl...

they should blame man instead of women, if they are knowledgable but if they are beleivers they need to understand its God who produce whatever he wills ... none should get balme niether women nor man,

balance of everything is always right...

so women and man are equal in every sense , but again i m saying not identical, let say if u do arm restle with your husband you will lose , becoz womens are weak in strenth from man.. hands got five fingers, of both male and female but strenght is not same...

it was silly example dnt take it again as upper thing, if someone really giver , greater, stonger, in extreme is only beloved God... rest of the things are just illusions of life...

peace  :group: in this group two giver two taker and one is neutral... ok a group hug
God bless all man and women

Imran, you are a nice person but this questionn seems to shock some metal buildingnot in you i may people.

If a man as opposed to woman is a givern because of that little seed, then the woman is what, whe i facct she brings not only the equivaqlent littl seed, bu also aboslutely all the nourisment for that two seeds to grow and become a nnew human being.

Who is a giver as opposed to the other giver?

If a ale is a giver as opposed to nnothig, fie, but to say that as opposed to te female he is the giver...  please, there are better jokes than that.

The thig is that the differeces between the sexes are plain an perfectly objective and they lay almost absolutely in reproduction, the rest may vary from person to person. But he ideologues have always tried to transform those very objective and plain differences betwen the sexes into something mystical or unmesurable which hs always turned ito make the male the star of creation and the woman a mere appendage for his glory.
And whe somebody puts that into question one gets fed the line of "you ar starting he fight between the sexes".

Really, real men are better than that. They can do without the vanity and come down a few steps to real earth, but that is Ibli, who has bee very successul at making a part of male humanity in nneed of beinng them in turn worshiped by some others who only exist for that worship.

here is a lot of confusion on this arena, but the choice is there, to live in reality a do justice to reality or to live in vanity and figment till death or till God may want you open the eyes to somebody.

Real, non vain men without a need for stardom in fact can be happy, very, very happy.

I all statistical studies I have known women are happier as they get older and men are uhappier as they get older. That should tell somethig.   

Salaam

Women give eggs every month. Both give. Case closed.

Quote from: hurufthen there are some who still dare sometimes to say that women want to be like men

That's only when the women don't drool and quiver at them instinctively, or in other words when they aren't weak, in need of protection or as has been put across helpfully in this thread...able to be 'controlled'. These women then get called atypical, manly, butch feminists by some since they dared cross the boundaries set for them...by these hunky men :laugh:

Quote from: lyro34 on July 09, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
In search of a sincere guided believing woman who will take the time to actually read the text below!

Question.

"Is it only a part of the book you believe in and you reject the rest?"  (سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #85)

In the prophets will you find an excellent example??Question. Did any of them go to college? If so, what college did Muhammad (SAW) attend? ?. Did any of them read hadith? ?..Did any of them go among the disbelievers to hangout?

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them." (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #28)

Question. How can you guard yourselves from them if you go to school and work with them?

"They will not fail to corrupt you." (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #118)

Question. How can you hangout with them and you?re not corrupt?

"Then we put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way)" (سورة الجاثية, Al-Jaathiya, Chapter #45, Verse #18)

Question. Wouldn?t the right course be following exactly what Allah revealed in the Quran and what the Prophets (SAW) did in the Quran? What are you doing?

"And follow not the path of those who know not." (سورة يونس, Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #89)

Question. Who told you that you have to go to school to obtain a good job in order to provide for your family, does Allah encourage this in the Quran or are you following the worlds life! (I work from home and am a highschool dropout and Allah is the provider and he provides well through this source. I can teach my wife to work from home if she feels the need that she must work.)

"But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! And Allah is the Best to provide" (سورة الجمعة, Al-Jumu'a, Chapter #62, Verse #11) (Note Allah didn?t say you or college was the best provider.)

"Whoever, forsaking allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest." (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #119)

Tell m,e who then can find a righteous wife, when the Ummah is deceived by the life of this world and they were duped into following Hadith, when the Allah states that His guidance is the only guidance. Who can find a decent woman when the Ummah is being corrupted by the LGBT and the perverted transgressors communities that surround them and they refuse to move away from them?

Tell me, who can find a righteous wife when most women reject the parts of the Quran were it states you can marry 4 wives and believing girls, are you going to tell Allah to his face on the day of judgment that the men who do this commit bigotry and child molestation like the world says of our beloved prophet. Then who is your God?

"Therefore lend not thou support in any way to those who reject (Allah's Message)." (سورة القصص, Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #86)

Questions. Why are you so proudly supporting their college institutions by attending them, and why do you support their businesses by buying from them when you know they contribute to the deaths of your brothers in the east?

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least:" (سورة الأنعام, Al-An'aam, Chapter #6, Verse #159)

Question. How can you people then be sunni, shite, sufis, baha'is and ahmadiyyas, how rebellious can you be!

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favors on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;" (سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #103) ??

Question. Who told you people to be racist and hate and be divided by color, Allah commanded that kindness is due to all people and you will pay everyone their due on the day of Judgment. How do you people discriminate hate and judge skin color, Allah said don?t fail to judge by the book, why are you judging by color or nationality?

I am looking for a believing muslim woman, one who knows and accepts the role that Allah has gave her. One who is devoutly obedient and does not try to assert authority (suggestions are fine), is submissive and recognizes the man as the head and leader. A women who is opposed to feminism and women empowerment because she knows it is against the natural order Allah has set. I will post a verse from the Quran:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard." (سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #34)

So I will do my part as protector and maintainer and you do yours that you are commanded in that verse by Allah! And of course treat each other with kindness and respect and live in tranquility with one another if Allah wills.

Is there a righteous women out there who truly believes in Allah? If so then, show yourself.  ;)

Do you follow the Torah, Psalms and Gospel also?

The egg remains contained in the female if conceived and not given elsewhere, but the semen is given by the male in order for her to conceive and hence become pregnant. Later the finished child is ejected out of her uterus which is what gives the Arabic descriptive term of mother. The father's descriptive term means what his role is in reproducing children. We cannot escape these linguistic meanings and there is no misogyny in it.

I think I already said this previously and it is tantamount to circular reasoning, but now I have disclosed it with the best of my explanation skill. Furthermore it is off-topic. How did we enter the topic anyway?

Be well
Amenuel

actually a balance between everything is really nice we should think this thing more than thinking giving or taking

relationship of husband and wife on equality basis is always my way of thinking sister huruf we both man and women in need of eachother and when we understand this need then we relax and our test become easy.

one side i look women suffer more than a man witn respect to kids so thats y logically God created a system in which both male and female are mire attach to mother than father

from the very first day women get stuck with kid so i also admit it and i never ever think in my life to compare man and women on any thing both deserved to be love and respect

peace

You are right, imran. We should not hold on so dearly to our gender identities.

Be well
Amenuel

hmm amanuel exactly

God bless you all

Peace Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on July 12, 2016, 07:16:31 PM
Actually, there is one (and perhaps only one?) translation that provides perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 with regard to the point you raise. Scroll down a bit:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

Thank you for your response. I have read your article in past quite a few times and read it again now. Whilst you have made an excellent attempt to come up with an alternative meaning of "dharaba", unfortunately it does not provide perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 with regard to the point I raised. Just saying it does, does not make it coherent.

This brings me to couple of suggestions about that portion of your article.

1. You make the following statement in your article which is factually incorrect:

Quote from: WakasA perfect match with 4:34!

This statement should be replaced with something like "similar to 4:128". Evidence will follow.

2. You make the following misleading statement in your article:

Quote from: Wakas4:128
if a wife feared uprising/disloyalty from husband
---> then no blame upon them that they try to reconcile between themselves
---> (if still no resolution, e.g. she is suspended/stuck, do as 58:1-4) idriboo/cite them
---> authority/arbiters can get involved

The red portion of your quote above is not even remotely suggested by 4:128, hence very misleading and partly based on this misleading statement you claim "perfect match with 4:34". The red portion should be taken out.

================================

Following is evidence that your article does not provide perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128, instead the discrimination still remains.

1. In 4:34, after husband fearing  "nushooz", 3 steps are recommended before others can get involved (which can be simultaneous as you suggest, by your own admission in the article, hence a contradiction which I will come to later on):

Advise -------> abandon wife in bed -------> "dharab" her (no matter what it means)

In 4:128, after wife feared "nushooz", only one step recommended before others can get involved -------> Reconcile

CLEARLY no perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 and obvious evidence of discrimination.

Why is wife not recommended to "abandon husband in bed" in 4:128 for same fear of ill-conduct/disloyalty as in 4:34? -------> Discrimination

Why is wife not recommended to "dharab" her husband in 4:128 for same fear of ill-conduct/disloyalty as in 4:34? -------> Discrimination

Doesn't matter what "dharaba" means, it should have been equally recommended for both.

2. In 4:34 the recommendation is "3izuhunna"/advise/exhort/admonish/preach/warn

CLEARLY A ONE WAY MONOLOGUE from husband to wife

In 4:128 the recommendation is "yusliha"/reconcile

CLEARLY INVOLVING A TWO WAY DIALOGUE between wife and husband.

CLEARLY no perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 and obvious evidence of discrimination.

When husband fearing "nushooz" then a ONE WAY MONOLOGUE with wife

When wife feared "nushooz" then a TWO WAY DIALOGUE to reconcile.

It should have been a TWO WAY DIALOGUE in both places.

3. In 4:34 after the ONE WAY MONOLOGUE, the possibilities are wife "obeys"/"atanakum" (one sided) otherwise -------> authorities involved.

In 4:34 it's a TWO WAY DIALOGUE which if doesn't work out then -------> authorities involved.

CLEARLY no perfect coherence between 4:34 and 4:128 and obvious evidence of discrimination.

It should have been a TWO WAY DIALOGUE in 4:34, or in 4:128 the wife should also have been given the right to have a ONE WAY MONOLOGUE with husband and his "obedience" to that monologue as the way out.

Finally, I come to the part where it can be simultaneous according to your own contradictory words:

Quote from: WakasIt is perhaps interesting to note that "if they obeyed you" may have an implication that anything other than advisement is regarded as seeking a way against them, i.e. abandoning them in bed and (then) idriboo them. We will discuss later that it is possible to infer that the 'abandoning them in bed' step could be limited in time, whilst the advisement part whilst still maintaining normal sexual relations does not have a time limit, further reinforcing this first step as what is preferred, hence it being first.

So according to your own inference, the advisement part does not have a time limit but abandoning them in bed could be limited in time, which shows that the two can overlap and be simultaneous.

This contradicts with your statement in the article:

Quote from: WakasThe "fa" meaning then/so means whatever follows can only apply to the wife in whom the husband fears nushuz, not others. It also implies that what follows is a sequential order of recommendations and not simultaneous.

Peace

There is no husband in 4.34 either to fear nushuz or to do anything at all. Theh aya is addressd to the believers, men and women. Those who fear arethe believers wha re beig addressed and the nushuz can be feared from any womann or women.

Salaam

peace t11,

So as not to go off-topic too much I have replied in the relevant thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg391536#msg391536

When it comes to that feminism and earning money bit...all I will say is,

"Men are the providers for women, because Allah has stowed on the one more than the other, and for what they have to provide (for them) from their sources. So the righteous women are devotees and protect in the absence of their husbands that which God ordains to be protected."(Qur'an 4:34)" (sidenote: the verse context implies this second sentence is in reference to marital affair not obedience. Nushuz is used in reference to a woman's misbehavior in 4:34 and a man's misbehavior in 4:128, so the word "opposition" does not make the most sense in the verse, but rather disloyalty makes the most sense and fits in both verses.)

Why do you think you earn more in inheritance, you have more of an obligation to care for us?

Why do you think a pious man of the community looks over the adolescents inheritance until she is of mature age to handle it? You have a responsibility as men to protect. In my opinion, its because there are many other awful men out there trying so hard to do the opposite.

When it comes to a woman doing what she wants with her own money...

?And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them?? [al-Nisa? 4:6] Which means a woman orphan who is of sound judgment and proper age can control her own money.

Salam lyro34

If you want a mate ask from the Lord. 

Ask for someone who is compatible to you, who will be together with you in your life's journey through good and bad times in accordance to the teachings of the Quran so that both you and your mate will end in heaven together.  Ask for a specific sign from the Lord,when the mate appears in your life she is the one you should commit to.

If you are trying to be specific, quoting verses, the Lord may grant you such a mate but she may not necessarily be compatible.  The specific sign is just to make it easier for you to identify the person should your prayers be answered.

If you wish for your mate to be Quranic, you must also be Quranic in practice otherwise she may be too hot to handle.

Marriage is part of the test. Marriage is not made for us to be happy but for us to become better and more sincere, and tha, even if one does not want it, may entail suffering. With this I donot mean to deter anybody only the cowards.

Salaam

marriage is not a part of test but its a very important question that never should miss lol

Marriage is a test before the ultimate union that you find in God.

Peace AyaLyfe,

Quote from: AyaLyfe on August 04, 2016, 05:45:46 AM
Nushuz is used in reference to a woman's misbehavior in 4:34 and a man's misbehavior in 4:128

There is no evidence of any actual misbehavior in both signs. This is clear by the usage of "fear nushuz" or "feared nushuz", so the man or woman just have/had the fear of nushuz from the other and not actual nushuz in those signs. Some authors have assumed that 4:128 implies actual nushuz, but that is pure conjecture and a logical fallacy of unwarranted assumption. Then they draw a conclusion from this false conjecture, which renders their conclusion completely invalid.

QuoteWhy do you think you earn more in inheritance, you have more of an obligation to care for us?

What about millions of women who are the breadwinners and care for their husbands who sit at home for any number of reasons while the women work? Why don't they get more inheritance? Also millions of men do not get married due to any number of reasons. Why do those men get more inheritance?

Peace